I have all this cnc stuff mills lathes the works cnc punch press and
i cannot seam to get any one to bring some work does any one know how to
make it happen i think it is my face .I have no idea you know after 35 years
of this problem it is time to give up???? I have no gift of gab,i do not like
sprots, hunting ,fishing and all that stuff in comman with people i just want to make parts to keep the lights on!!!! Any answers let me know i my want to find someone who can do all that stuff .

maybe we need to move to china it's where all the jobs are now :P haha
Now if i could only find out how they live on 20 cents a day... i would be set.

OUCH!

I am in a different business but what your describing is every business owners nightmare.

I am not much for sales either so I solved this problem while creating my business plan and decided I will probably have to hire outside sales agents who work for a commission of some sorts.

As I said, I am in a different type of business. Although my machine uses CNC controls, it is not a milling machine or cutting machine of any type.

Do you have a sales strategy?
Do you have a marketing plan?

Way back when in NJ when I had a BOSS 9 you had to BUY your work. Not fair but that was the game.

George

Harold, if it is not coming to you after 35 years there is a reason, and I won't guess at what that may be.
But... I have been self employed for 40 years and realize that in most of my problems all I have to do is look into the mirror to find that problem and solution. Then I try best I can to change that. My biggest business fault and I cannot guess what it has cost me over the years is that I am unorganized.
Somewhere I heard said "that it is never to late to begin to that which is right"

Here are some thoughts.
1) You may need to make changes both personally and business.
2) Consider what you are charging, is it competitive with your competition, better just a bit lower, perhaps your pricing is to low and people question the quality because of it.
3) If it is not coming to you then you go to it.
4) Call shops around and offer your service, and share your experience.
5) Put your qualifications and experience in a letter and mail it to business's that may need the kind of work that you offer, and mail it to as many as you can afford to put stamps on. Keep the letter positive and concise.
6) Perhaps a small ad in the local newspaper.
7) Call past customers up and ask for work.
8) Begin to manufacture a product and sell that.
9) Do you have regular hours ?
10 Do not get all caught up in gloom and doom, it will take you where you do not want to go!

Bests to you Harold.

Ken







After 35 years it would seem a shame to throw in the towel.

Harold, you say you dont have the gift of the gab. But you have greater than this, you have honesty, and are humble enough to ask a personal question like you have, on a public forum. I am finding that when I talk with perspective clients that it is better to be meek and not be a know all. Dont present as though you dont need to listen to the client. Let the client advise you on what they want. Listen to them. Ask lots of questions. Be on the look out for expensive practices that they are doing, and offer to help them by been able to provide a cheaper or more cost effective method for them.

Kenneth has offered a great list, and there isnt much I can add to it, rather just expand by examples. One thing that Kenneth suggests is, manufacture your own products. That means you are not dependant on the customer coming to you, and you dont have to sell your soul in order to get the work. Make sure the product you sell is either unique, cheaper than similar products, or superior in design and quality.

Did you know that you computer can send faxes? Design a fax that desribes what you can do. Go through the yellow pages and find all the companies that you think you could offer services to. Do not send the faxes during busines hours but send them during the night. You dont want to piss off your perspective client by taking over their fax when they might be needing it. This is a great way for you to target your advertising, instead of open slather advertising like in a newspaper.

Did you ever see the movie, "Field of dreams"? The theme was, "if you build it they will come" Well it may happen in some cases, but on the whole it is bullsh1t. You will need to establish a client base the hard way first, service them well, make sure they are happy with your service, ask them if they are happy or displeased with your service, Be prepared to go that extra unpaid mile, and only then, will they come.

Harold, specialty items.....

I knew a guy who made aluminum parts for model airplanes, and he used to get orders from all over the US. What he made was in small enough demand to have no competition from overseas, but yet he sold a bunch of them, and made a good living.

Have you considered making parts for homebrew CNC machines? Right now I wish I could find some of the blocks that are used for adjusting the ends of the linear rods... I have looked for them, and cannot find. Those are the square pieces that hold the end of a rod, and are adjustable with four set screws. I could make them, but rather like to buy in my case. A good part would be a ready-made z axis, in kit form. That is, just the main parts. Size 23 stepper mounts is another one. Not everyone has a mill around.

I have a few ideas of parts that might be sellable, not only to CNC but to other types of crafts.

Have you ever studies sales?

I have been there myself, and after 7 years of scratching and pawing for work, I finally started to realize what my problem was. My problem had nothing to do with whether or not I liked sports, hunting, fishing, or even whether or not my face turned people off. My problem was that I didn't have the necessary tools to do that job. It wasn't until I figured out that if I was going to try and "sell" my business, then I needed to get the necessary tools for that, and that meant learning how to sell and what tools and techniques I needed to "sell".

I spent years accumulating micrometers, special fixtures, jigs, and learning tricks to do the work faster. I bought thousands of dollars worth of tools and machines. I read everything I could about machining of any kind. All that time spent focused on improving my skills was wasted time, it was time I could have spent doing the routine work that has always been there, the farmer who needs his tractor fixed, the factory that needs the holes drilled in the plate, the cabinet maker who need his planer fixed, the guy down the street who need his engine heads milled flat.

I spent hours upon hours worrying about how I could afford that next big machine, meanwhile the machines I had were sitting empty gathering dust. I made excuses for not making sales calls, like having to clean the dust off of those machiens in case a customer walked through my door.

Bottom line is I was not trained to sell, I was trained to machine. I had to make a decision, do I want to machine parts or run a business? If I just wanted to make parts, then I could go to work for someone else and do that. But if I wanted to run a business and build it up into something I dreamed about for years, that meant I had to take steps to learn how to do that.

I started by getting a book about selling, it was called "Secrets of closing the sale." by Zig Ziglar. I started learning how I could help my customers get what they want so that I could get what I want. Instead of reading more and more about machining I am reading more and more about selling, besides, the machining comes so natural to me that I don't need to spend so much time trying to master every new and exciting technique there is.

Just my $0.02 worth, maybe it will help. Let us know what happens though.

Jim

Jim, I think you are right !!! At one point in my life I did the same. Books about selling and public relations. Elmer Wheeler, Dale Carnegie, etc.

I was in the printing business years ago. I made myself a card that set me apart from the crowd. It was very simple, shiny white paper like glass, and a logo foil embossed in real gold. Company name, address, phone, and my name without title. I would go out and call on businesses... dressed in working clothes, with a red rag sticking out of my rear pocket, and a printer's rule very visible. I had a few cards in a little envelope, and I would walk in and say very meekly "Hello, my name is Fred and I am a printer" and take one of the cards out of the little envelope, holding it by the edges, and hand it to the prospective customer. Then I would shut up !!!! I just answered any questions. If not, I would simple state "please keep me in mind" and thank them and leave. It worked !!!!!!! I got real fancy printing jobs at very good prices for me. As a matter of fact, I was able to complete a 4 year degree while supporting a family at a decent standard of living.

I guess if I was running a CNC machine shop I would make a card out of SS, with a border, and raised letters and logo, and make it highly polished, etc. Just a beautiful job as a sample, and take it to some business that need machining.

Just an idea ....

I am unorganized .I do have a product i started but fizzled out on.I think it might be the winter blues.I had someone send me a drawing now i cannot get a hold of them thay wanted to come over things are a shamble i think thay just wanted to be nosey . Then somone want sheetmetal punched thay were going to send a dxf file did not get that yet .I only have one costomer sometime i price things high and get them .I cannot figure that part out.
keep the post coming it helps

Harold, I wish I had your equipment. But not to take in work. To make products.

I firmly believe that one can remake one's self. I've done it a few times over my life. Each time is hard. Each time is even more rewarding than the last.

If I were you I'd be looking at niche products that you can sell at a 100% gross profit for one to two years and then move on to the next one. That's what I am hoping to do now. I'm fitting an old Bridgeport with home brew controls to make kitchen gadgets. Low tolerance decorative stuff.

I too am going to have to learn how to sell better by the way. You are not alone there. Great post too. Stimulated a lot of good replies that I learned from. Thank you very much for puttin' it out there.

harolda,

When you say CNC Punch....like a Strippit? Where in the USA are you? Do you use "Non-Disclosure Agreements" in your work?

Can you brake stuff? Have ya got a Pemserter or a clinch nut inserter?

PM me.

Thanks,
Paul

I have no pemseter i have a 6 foot brake . No disclosuere statment .
Other then i will not disclose your product to anyone your process,your diamentions or any thing pertaining to your product

Harold, one more thing. As a small, quick, step to selling better, you could sign up for and make yourself, your background, and what you do known on every machine tool related internet forum site, like this one, that you can find. There are several over at Yahoo. I often see people out there looking for things to be done and willing to pay for it.

I also notice that all the vendors who are making the DIY-CNC components are there and very active. Sometimes I see "regular" shops there too. I think persistence and good manners and a helpful attitude pay off. Even if you only pick one forum to frequent. Go there every day and offer help every day if you can. Put a plug for what you do and your contact information in your signature block.

All you really have to do is give back in terms of helping a few people with their questions. I bet you have a ton to offer in that regard with 35 years experience.

This would be a classic marketing move to expand the number of eyeballs looking at you, what you do, and your shop.

You'll need to think about how to do business with people at a distance. Will people e-mail you CAD files or FAX you drawings from the back of a napkin? Will you ship UPS, us Mail, or common carrier? Customer pays the freight always from what I've seen. How do you get paid? Pay-Pal or something like it? There's a ton of good answers. The e-Bay community has really helped us all with these virtual tools for doing business.

One more thing. Market survey. Have you ever called up your past customers to see what they liked and did not like about doing business with you? Some of them won't tell you. People hate potential confrontation. But if you carefully explain that you are trying to improve your skills then your honestly will overcome their objections and maybe get them to open up. Avoid the hard luck story by the way. Can be a turn off to some. Stay positive with your message to the customer always.

Well, that's my two cents anyway. Free advice may be worth just that. Hope that helps, good hunting! -jd

This is a great thread! Sorry it had to develope because of someone misfortune.

Been there and don't that horolda, although not for quite that long.

What I found out is the two biggest problems with our industry is meeting timetables and quality.

Most of the time you have to agree to the timetable so that is controlable to a certain degree. If you can meet the timetables consisitantly generally the customer will keep coming back.

The next is quality. This one is hard because everyone ones perfection for no $$$$$. what you have to do is find out what works (a few choice questions go along way here). Most prints are more flexable than you might assume.

I don't know how many customers said that they like to do business with me because I ask questions about their print before going to machine it. (if they only knew I was just trying to do less work for the same pay :) I think most people like the interest you show in there designs. And this is where that 35 years of experience comes in, don't just machine what they give you just because you can! Make suggestions on what would make the part faster to make and Cheaper. All they usually hear is cheaper and thats the way to the customers heart! (otherwise china wouldn't be an issue!)

to much to say and just rambling noww... but three words of power in order:

cheaper
better
faster (or on time)

as we say in jujitsu: Maximum damage minimum effort.

PS.
if they have a qc dept. you have to find a way to the designer and verify.. don't know how many times so idoit no load dip dunk sent my part back bause .0005 violation of a .040" tolerance.. but thats a whole different story!

I had a few cards in a little envelope, and I would walk in and say very meekly "Hello, my name is Fred and I am a printer" and take one of the cards out of the little envelope, holding it by the edges, and hand it to the prospective customer. Then I would shut up !!!! I just answered any questions. If not, I would simple state "please keep me in mind" and thank them and leave.

Fred,

I actually used to do this very same thing, but it didn't work for me. My business cards were just plain cards, and that didn't show them anything that I could do for them. I used to tell them to "keep me in mind", but that is actually not what I should have been saying, and i found that out by learning about sales. By saying that I was basically letting them put my name in the back of their mind, where it eventually got lost among all the days other problems. What I should have been saying was, "I'll check back in with you from time to time to see if you have anything for me to quote. I would like an opportunity to show you some of my work."
By leaving it up to them to decide whether ot not to call me, I gave them total control over my abilty to sell. But by keeping control over my sales, I can decide whether or not they see me. Also, if they say "no don't bother, I don't think we will have anything for you." at least I would know not to waste my time trying to sell to them and I can concentrate on someone else.

Great idea about the Stainless Steel card. I could do it with a combination of CNC and EDM and really show off.

Jim

Let me share the wisdom from a friend who made it big in another industry, only to fall down with drugs and alcohol afterhis son commited suicide. He's on the way back up though so I take his wisdom very seriously. John was in the screen printing industry and had worked his way up the ladder at a well known company when he decided to go it alone. With the help of backers he started his own business, he later bought out the backers and became a multi millionaire. His strategy is very simple. When quoting a job look at your plant, if the machines are not running quote it drastically low. When busy quote high but ALWAYS return the quote within 4 hours. John actually had a time clock for his estimators, all jobs had to be quoted in 4 hours or less. In this industry quotes usually take days but he got the business because often times trhe customer is in a hurry. Look at it this way, any machine or operator sitting idle is losing money, if you can fire up that machine and get the operator run it rather than scrubbing floors it's worth it even at a net loss because the total loss is less. Now you suggest that you don't have the gift of gab, neither does my boss but I do and he wisely promoted me to "technical services" which is basically sales. Walk out on the plant floor and find thue guy who has the gift, bring hime to the office and make this simple offer. Suggest you want to put him into sales because he knows the business and can talk with others. Pay his mileage for driving and any other expenses and make an agreement that when he reaches a certain level you'll give him a commission. You'll be taking someone who is already an asset to the business and giving him the opportunity to increase his income but the burden is on him. You'll need to back him as much as possible with price reductions, better quotes, faster turn around etc. but this will pay off. How do I know? Well I've been doing this sales thing for exactly two months and alreadry brought a 10% increase in business, when I get to 15% I get commission and a company car. I have no prior sales experience other than being a waiter at one time but what I do have is the ability to communicate with and gain the trust of both the man on the floor as well as management at other companies. I find it fun, rewarding and challenging. John's top salesman was taken directly off the floor as a press operator, today he works for another company in sales and makes well into the 6 figures. As the owner of your company you also need to think about some possible personal changes. Take an interest in the lives of your employees, find out about their families, hobbies, etc. Showing an interest in them will make them more dedicated and it will teach you not only how to be a better owner but also how to be a better salesman yourself. A good salesman asks or learns the interests of his potential clients and learns just enough to gab for a few minutes between talking business. You don't have to know much, in fact people love talking about what interests them so just ask questions, hey what do you do for fun? Oh yeah, tell me about it? etc.

I've seen this sort of thing work over and over, give it a whirl, you just might have those machines running again.

"A good salesman asks or learns the interests of his potential clients and learns just enough to gab for a few minutes between talking business. You don't have to know much, in fact people love talking about what interests them so just ask questions, hey what do you do for fun? Oh yeah, tell me about it? etc."
I have an excellent memory for faces but suffer from a poor memory relative to people's names, the customers interests or family, etc. Although it sounds dumb, straightaway after seeing the customer I would write down anything relative to our conversation in a file for that person/company. Next time I saw them I would ask "how did you go with that problem in ....." or "how's your son leg now" (after a fracture) or whatever. The fact that you remembered (he he!) one insignificant detail really opens people up.
Second thing is that even if you don't have the gift of the gab, be positive in your outlook and don't talk about anything negative even if you feel like crap on the day. My brother likens it to how insects are attracted to a light. If the light's on, the insects will be attracted and keep coming back. If the light's off (negativity) you can be the best machinist in the world and do backflips at the same time as machining and yet no one will come back.
Skippy

My success has come from establishing solid relationships with my customers. Everyone I deal with are repeats, and I built them one at a time over years. Now when a customer calls and wants a price on something, it is because they want to know how much it cost to do that job. Not because they are shopping me against 2-3 other guys. It took me a long time to learn how to charge enough. And being cheapest dosen't mean you get the job. I still fall into the "quote cheap" trap sometimes, or I simply screw up, but the way I look at it,I would rather charge $100.00/hr. and work 4 hours then sit around for 4 hours(I can get other stuff done)than charge $50.00/hr and work 8 hours. The customers I have prioritize things this way,

1) The work is done right the first time
2) The work is delivered on time!
3) Price.

This is overly simplifying things, and sound basic, but first things first.

Another hard thing I had to learn is quoting cheap and trying to cut corners. When the customer says, "this thing is junk" and you reply, "Well you got it so cheap, what do you expect" is not a good relationship builder. The customer wanted one thing and you give them something else. I had to learn that lesson over and over again.

Harold,

Its not a gift of gab. Its a skill. Like any other skill, it can be learned. Much of the advice given so far is covered in a book that many libraries have... Lifetime conversation guide by Van Fleet. Like any other skill, it has to be practiced constantly to work well. And you've been given some great idea on books for sales. Again, practice, practice, practice. Heck, I sell stuff at best buy all the time and I don't even work there. Its just an experiment to see what works. If I put on a blue shirt and khakis, noone would suspect I didn't work there. I usually start off with...."What are you looking for in a..." TV, dvd player, machinist, technical partner...doesn't matter. Pay attention to the answer and the words they hang on. Feed those back to them.

What are you looking for in a technical partner?

I'm looking for someone who can get the job done quickly, quotes a fair price and stands behind their product.

That's what we look for too. And when we find someone who can get the job done, quotes a fair price and stands behind their product, they get all of our work, even if they haven't done that kind of work before. Its worth it to us to build the skills of a great outfit like that so we can hire them constantly rather than dealing with more than one vender.

Another thing is getting your mind right. Believe in yourself. Tell stories about how you pull someone's ass out of the fire. Tell stories about making the impossible possible. It works...people respect stuff like that, especially when looking for someone do to what they can't do...."the impossible."

later,
John

My brother-in-law owns a small plastic injection molding company. Essentially he builds the molds and then he runs the presses to create the plastic pieces.
The thing is, he has all manual machine tools. He has two small BP manual mills and he spends forever making the molds. Its the sort of thing perfect for a CNC Mill. He will never learn how to use CNC Mill. I suggested he farm out the work to someone with a CNC. But he has done that before and had a bad experience with someone who was not competent. So now he says, "I'm faster than CNC".

The point to the story is that there is likely other just like him, that you can approach. Look in the phone book under "Plastic Injection Molding"

A mutual friend introduced me to a " Manufactures Rep". This guy had access to all kinds of industries, to include aerospace, manufacturing,even outfits like Sperry, Motorola,univeristies..you name it. I just could never find enough time to pound on doors,and most of the time wore jeans and an apron, not condusive to selling.
I signed a deal with the Rep, really did not expect much. Withen in 2 years his commissions from us were $6000.00 to $10,000 a month ( he charged 10%, after we got paid).He helped open some doors that I just never knew existed.even chased his recievables as he did not get paid untill we did.
I just mentally added 10% to the quotes he brought in, but some were so big that did not have to do that . He created a lot of customers that just sent us work with out a bid after they got to know our quality.
I do not think we could have hired a full time sales person that produced dollar for dollar as the rep did..

Adobe (old as dirt)

Thats a great idea , Adobe. Harold, if it's possible do your self a favor and investigate what Adobe has reccomended. Your skills are honed for manufacturing or machining, and thats what you should remain focussed on.

Thats exactly why a Rep is often the best way to go. They know the local territory inside and out and a good one will have contacts in all the major industries in that territory. They are aware of the projects and plans of these companies long before they are solicited to vendors and contractors. If they are good and have been in the area a long time they will know who buys what, from who, when and how much they pay. They work strictly for commision and the value that a good one brings to the table is worth far more than the 7-12% they usually charge. Since they usually work for a small company thier commissions and services are flexible and often they can provide a customer with a solution to thier proplem that requires several manufacturers products as a package, so you will gain access to business and projects otherwise unavailable to you.

A good Rep will GENERATE business. the problem is finding a good one. Someone hungry enough to hustle, but also familiar with the territory and well established with his customers.

Well worth spending some time on. If you hook up with the right Rep, your business could really take off. Be willing to consider an exclusive agreeent, as some require it, just make sure you can drop them at your discretion at any time.

I know how you feel, I have had the same problem in the past. Good luck and best wishes.