Hi everyone, I have been gathering parts and brain storming for the last 2 months to upgrade my Dynatorch 5 x 10 table to some of Dynatorch'es latest features plus a couple of my own. Any comments along the way are welcome. I have learned a great deal from others on the forum and would like to give back. In 2005 I purchased a 5' single x axis motor, standard gantry with laser locator and built my own 5 x 10 water table. It has worked without missing a beat.

At that time Dynatorch offered a battery powered laser locator (which I still have) and had spring assist pre load for the pinion gears. They also used a v rail design for the lifter station. Shortly after I got my machine up and running they improved their Z lifter station to a ball screw design and added small pneumatic air cylinders to pre load the pinion gears. Both were major improvements which I added to my machine.

Since then they have added a host of new features. My machine has been making me money so I decided its time to reinvest. The Dynatorch crew has been great at providing all the parts I needed and technical advice.

The Upgrade;

1. Add Dual x axis drive motors

2. Dynatorch currently offers a single drop side gantry, however my plan is to make it a Dual drop and replace my existing gantry with a 3 x 12 channel aluminum gantry.

3 Add the new Dynatorch all steel Y axis carriage and dual linear rails on the Y axis.

4. Add the Dynatorch DASH system

5. Add the Dynascribe unit for plate marking

6. Replace all rack and pinions on the X and Y axises with their new 24 pitch rack.

7. Upgrade the laser indicator to the latest AC powered one.

Here are some pics of the parts and my gantry. I am sure it will take some time but in the end it will be well worth the effort.

Here are a few more pics,

Joe,
The first post, last picture: What are the two items with the short wires behind the laser locator and the DASH unit? The Y carriage housing looks way improved over the extruded carriage. That should take care of the suspected vibration that the DT's are subject to. Looks like you have quite a project ahead! I look forward to seeing the progress.
Tommy

Why are you replacing your current rack & pinion?

WSS, the 2 black items with the wires are the solenoids to control the Dynascribe unit. It has 2 air cylinders, one controls the up and down motion and the scribe itself and the other controls the whole rectangular shaped assembly that the scribe is mounted in. You can't see it in the Dynatorch video of the scribe but when the scribing is finished the whole unit automaticly moves up several inches out of harms way.

You can adjust the speed of the air actuating cylinders thru the solenoid valves, both solenoids are made by Ingersoll Rand. I'm not sure but I think that all the new Dynatorch gantrys and Y axis carriages are now all 3/16" steel. I know that they are selling alot of their master series machines for use with Hydefinition plasmas. The torch and cable assemblys are much heavier on Hydef than standard plasmas. Perhaps thats the reason for steel gantrys and Y axis carriages now. If so this just makes their standard series machines that much better.:o Rigidity is a good thing. I am sure I could have purchased a steel gantry from them also but the shipping would have been a bit much. I decided to make my own from aluminum. As for the vibration mentioned in another thread, I have never experienced it.

tof1,
as for the reason I am replacing the gear rack. My gear rack is the earlier version of 12 pitch used by Dynatorch. I guess you would call it a course tooth pattern. It is still in like new condition and has performed with zero problems other than it is a little noisy when the gantry is moving at 1000 inches per minute. The servo motors can really get the gantry from one end of the table to the other in a hurry.

Since I am adding a 2nd x axis drive motor I have to install an additional gear rack for the slave side anyway so I elected to go with the new 24 fine pitch rack they are using on all their new machines. I did see a 6 x 20 Dynatorch machine cutting at a local shop and it had the new rack. It was quiet and smooth which really sold me. Here are some pics of the solenoids, and the new and old style rack.

After tof1's one sentence question, I realise how much I don't know! Good question and good answer. Thanks for adding new depth to my confusion (lol). The steel gantrys as I was told was simply perception. A steel gantry is considered industrial. I am sure there is more to the story than that.

So the solenoids are for the Dynascribe. I see in the latest pic that it has two poppets, probably for the reciprocation function.

I have four days off to work on our table! Lots to do, I am hoping to get it painted late tuesday.

WSS, I am interested in your table build also. Post some pics when you get a chance. As for me the first step will be determining the correct length for the gantry and cutting. Since I am doing a dual drop the gantry will be about 2" wider than the overall table width. Hopefully I can get it done today. More pics later.

Hello Magma

I am envious, so many new features your going too have.

Curious if your going to see much improvement going to the 24 pitch rack and adding the air cylinder tensioners.

Will be checking in on this thread often as I would one day also like to upgrade my table.

Great pictures to.

Tyler

Hi Tyler, I purchased the pinion pneumatic preload cylinders when they first came out in 2006? They were a big improvement over the springs.

I am anxious to try out the new 24 pitch rack. I am used to hearing the gears mesh on my machine so it was a suprise NOT to hear them on the 6 x 20, machine I saw cutting. On the New Dynatorch Master series machines I noticed that the Rapid speeds were increased to 1600 inches per min. Perhaps this is another reason they went to a smoother running gear?

Gotcha, I thought they used 20pitch rack. Couldn't imagine 12, good choice.

Why do you like the penumatic tensioners more than the springs? Seems like a way to over-complicate things.

tof1, As a end user, I like the miniture air cylinders for several reasons. For one the pinion gear preload is infinitely adjustable to your what ever you like just by turning a knob on the air pressure regulator. Should I desire to move the gantry or Y axis by hand I just turn off the air and pull the pinion away from the rack. They are very durable yet simple requiring only a small air regulator and some plastic tubing to complete a system. I don't recall seeing any other cnc plasma machines using them other than Dynatorch?

If I were a machine builder I would be attracted to their ability to push or pull in a confined space such as in the picture I posted of the Y axis carriage. From what I have seen in the catalogs they cost little money and there is an array of mounting brackets and styles of cylinders offered.

Since I build custom parts for street rods, I am on a daily basis modifying, upgrading and redesigning things to make them look and perform better even if it is only a small amount. I look at my CNC plasma in the same way. When I think of springs versus pneumatic cylinders for my plasma its a no brainer. And since Dynatorch offers all these parts as a bolt on it was an easy install at the time.

I guess it would be nice to just turn off the air and be able to move your gantry by hand. Pictures look good, thanks for posting!

Thanks for the update and pics Joe, i didnt relise DT used the coarser R&P gears before, i can see where there will be a big difference with the new style...i havent sprung for the DASH yet so im really keen on seeing how you like it... when tof1 mentioned being able to turn off the air and move the gauntry around by hand, it reminded me that i do that once in awhile, especially when cleaning the rails and rollers, ive even thrown a sheet on the table and quickly lined it up by hand moving the gauntry and using the laser crosshairs....WSS im following your build also, thats quite a impressive table you are building and i enjoy watching your progress...

Regards to all

EDD

Hey Joe, I looked close at the picture of your table and slats, do you have a center support that pulls them into an arc? Are they supposed to be "flimsy" feeling? I put them in today and was surprised at how they wiggled. How is the retro going? Hopefully you are so busy you don't have time to put her down for the retro. I have one more day on the table and then back to the "regular" job.

Edwardo, You would be more than welcome to stop by So.Cal on your way back from Acapulco and take it for a test drive! I am shooting for three weeks to make the set-up call to Leon.

WSS, I had the same experience with wiggly slats when I first assembled my table. I bought a piece of t rail, cut some slots with my chop saw and installed it in the center of the table.

I spaced the slots the same distance apart as the outside slots however when I installed the slats I off set each slat in the center to the next slot in the t rail, creating a bowed effect. It made for a very tight grid. The other benefit is when you cut from side to side you won't be cutting right on top of a slat. The more bow the better. It is a real pain making a diagonal cut along the top of a slat. It leaves alot of slag and wipes out the slat edge.

I have been busy working on a vehicle in the shop I am making some modifications to. I did manage to get the gantry cut to length. I am also making a jig to hold the 12" wide gantry on my 10" x 50" mill table. I intend to bolt together the gantry ends and supports with countersink bolts. I don't want to weld it as I am concerned about distortion. I will be back on it within a couple of days.

Edwardo, since you went back to work early, does that mean you get extra time off when you come home? I'm sure you are itching to make a few things on your Dynatorch?

Hi Joe

We must have basically built our tables with the same thing in mind, i cut my slat groves with a chop saw also ( its all i had at the time ) and off set the center grooves to the center of the 2 outter ones giving the slats a nice curve and tightening then up, i tacked the center slat to the slat holder near the middle of the table to hold it up as there is no cross piece underneath the center of a 4x8 table to support it, a year later after digging small peices out of the air handler i finally bought a sheet of expanded metal and laid it under the slats to catch the small parts... makes cleaning easier too..
I am itching to get home and onto the DT, i have a few ideas on things i want to make and areas to target the marketing... with our climate i only have 4-5 months a year for this type of metal work, then will have to shift gears and find something for the winters months... i wasnt ready last X-mas to have anything made or to advertise, but i will be this year... see how it goes... if anything i can keep coming back and working down here in the mean time, the mining industry is starting to pick up again so the drilling we do for them is following suit, the supervisor i had to take over for here was run outta town by a jealous husband with a gun and a bad attitude.... some guys just never learn!! but yes i would be much happier at home cutting metal.
WSS if i ever end up in your part of the world i will defenitely take you up on that offer, same goes for you guys if ur ever up in central Canada look me up.

EDD

Edwardo, are you doing blast hole drilling?

We do diamond core drilling, so we get a rock core sample for the geologist from the top of the hole to the bottom, these holes here are relatively shallow at 600-800 feet in depth, the last project i was on down here we were drilling about 3000' foot holes verticle... 1 pic is the core in a box, the other is of the drills we use ... sorry not a very good 1 though...

EDD

Edwardo, That looks about a 4" diameter core. Looks like a lot of hard work in the remote areas. So assuming no one gets run out of town, drilling in that region is year round? We have in the past put Tungsten carbide on the back of the drill bits were the overs tend to ride and wear out the threaded collar and sometimes on the sticks at the same points. Beautiful country your in.

Joe, I just caught on to what you are doing with the aluminum rail! You will machine and fit it with SHC screws and such. Working with aluminum has it's rewards, it works easy and looks great when your done.

I have to return to income generating work for awhile so it will be a week or so before I get to work on the DT again.

Tommy

Joe,
I was wondering if those pieces were important to the function of the gantry. I am hoping they are just spacers. I set my gantry on the table today and it is about a 1/2" to wide. I am not sure were the error comes from. If I can remove these, I will be fine. I notice I will probably have to install another hard-stop somewhere, as The plates look to have a hard-stop integrated. It was to close to the edge for me to roll it back and forth to get that feel. So I will have to wait until I get this error fixed before I can walk with it up and down the track.

Did you have to upgrade the DT interface because of the extra servo (slave)?

I hope your build is going along OK!

Tommy

WSS, yes those are just spacers. Actually I won't be using them at all with the dual drop table design. The extra x axis drive motor required a upgraded Dynatorch control box. 2 motors = more amps. I have one more day of shop work before I get back on the new gantry.

Joe,
I talked with Greg @DT today and he solved the problem with a little common sense. I did remove one of the spacers and added a washer behind the cam follower to push it closer to the rail. They try to cover all the bases with guys who build their own table this way. We discussed other adjustments that I might encounter later as well. I know you mentioned they were very helpful regarding your retro-fit. They were right on it for me as well. Straight answers and quick. I will have a few hours tomorrow afternoon to fit it to the table. I will take some detailed photos and post them. I am getting ancy (sp?) to rush though it. I forgot about the cable carrier shelf, I will fit it up on Saturday.

Cheers,
Tommy

WSS, Greg is a good source of info. When I flew down to Kentucky in 2005 to see the Dynatorch machines before I comitted to buy one I toured their first facility. I met Walt who handles sales, his wife who ran the office and the only 2 employees they had at the time, Greg and Bruce, both still working at Dynatorch. It is definitly a family oriented business. I later learned that Leon Drake who designs the machines and Mike Clem who writes the software, provided machine and software support if needed.

At the time I purchased the We-cim software (about a year later) I flew back to Kentucky for software training and they had moved to a new much larger facility and had added more employees. I recently asked how many employees they had and was told they were up to 15. Talk about growth.

I normally never give Kudos to companies I deal with but I received above and beyond normal customer service from them and think it is only right to pass this on.

Being in business myself, Its easy see how they are hurting their competition. I think they probably forced Plasmacam into coming out with the Samson 5 x 10 table and also extending their time limit on after purchase machine support. Dynatorch offers free lifetime support. When you build, design, direct market, and provide support for your product you have complete control of costs, features, improvements and customer satisfaction.

When I started looking at CNC plasma tables in 2005 there were 2 more players in the market, DynaCNC (which I almost purchased) and Practical CNC. Both appear to be out of busines now.

I am finishing my shop work today and plan on spending Saturday working on the Upgrade. What do you have planned for your first cuts?

The guys at DT do seem to go the extra step. That may be the key to their success. It also seems that what they offered was what we needed. My wife and I went to a few local shops to see other types of machines work and learned a whole bunch doing that. Most of the guys were sharp and really good with their respective machines but we walked away thinking we needed to go to an Esab or an MG or some other high dollar machine. One time my wife said the machine looked like one of those "as seen on TV" scaffold/ladder/step stool things. That did it. I realised I was going to build the table and buy a DT! Servos were a big draw. Support means an awful lot to me. I have never ran a CNC machine before. I had a HP380 I used in my basement shop to cut 440C stainless for knifes by hand, so I will need the help.

Speaking of being in business for yourself, What type of stuff do you do? I assume it is with autos of some sort as you mentioned a brake caliper drawing (very neat tracing to drawing story)?

For the first cuts I will play with some 1/2" A36 to practice some parts that I normally do out of AR500. When I feel comfortable I will switch to AR plate. I did manage to sneak a few hours today and get the gantry fitted to the table. It went good. I will post some pics later tonight.

Good luck working on your project this weekend!

Tommy

WSS, I fabricate alot of one off parts for custom cars. It is always something different. Being in the same situation as you with no CNC experience a few years back, you will soon realize that having the CNC plasma is just part of the total picture. You must take the idea of what you want to make and have the machine cut it. This will require some CAD software to draw the part, and some CAM software to convert the drawing to G code instructions to tell the machine what moves to make.

Many parts are easy to draw, perhaps a square or round shape with some bolt holes. But when you encounter a part that is not one of your basic shapes and difficult to draw in a CAD program, you may want to consider tracing it on a piece of paper or hand drawing it. You then can scan it into a computer and run it through a raster to vector converter program. A vector drawing can then be converted to G code instructions for the machine to read. There are different programs out there to accomplish this.

I know that Edwardo uses Corel Draw. When I purchased the Dynatorch We-cim program it came with Arbor Image Cutting Shop software included. Here is a video of what it does.
http://www.arborimage.com/csv2_mov.htm

Just to give you an idea I have included a picture of an air scoop part I made from a template cut out of card board. It is .080 aluminum. I traced it on a large piece of paper and took it to my Office max store as it was to large for my scanner, had them scan it to a Tiff format and save it on my thumdrive. I then modifyed it a little and converted it in Cutting Shop to a DXF file. Also included is a picture of a fan shroud and a part I made to box the rear frame on a 49 Chevy P/U. I used the Dynatorch to cut the holes for back up lights as well as the fan shroud.

Support from the manufacturer and networking with others means everything when you are getting up to speed. What application do you use the plate you are cutting for? Sounds like some serious stuff? Any way, time to work on the upgrade!

Well did'nt get as much done as I wanted today, to many unexpected fires to put out. I finished the fixture to hold the gantry to the mill table. Since the gantry is 2" wider than the table I made 2 base plates out of 1 1/4" thick "aluminum to hold the gantry to square the ends and drill / tap all the holes.

I am using a piece of 6 x 6 aluminum angle on each end as reinforcement and a surface to mount the 1/2" side plates to. Everything will be bolted with countersink bolts. I have a nice straight piece of 3 x 12 aluminum channel and want it to stay that way so there won't be any welding. The angle will be underneath and overlap the ends of the channel.

Magma-joe,
judging by the pictures in your previous post, you have one of those jobs were you get paid to play! I say that only half joking, as one is never really good at what they do unless they enjoy it. Your work must be satisfying to see it to completion.

I checked out the cutting shop video and that is going to be mandatory I think. My wife is a Photographer and photoshop instructor and has a bunch of tricks to turn images into line drawings. I will post an example later when I have a chance to get on my Mac and work one up.

The parts we work on are usually ground engaging tools. Or parts for rock crushers. We impregnate tungsten-carbide grit (WC) into the wear surfaces for longer wear. Most of the parts are big and bigger!. Attached are some pics of the work I did on Saturday.

At least you got a start! Now you have the plan in your mind so next time you get a chance it will roll a little smoother. Your gantry will look good and the "no welding" will keep it true for sure. I have not done much aluminum, but I have actually seen it visibly twist as a guy was welding. I look forward to seeing the progress!

Tommy
WSS

Magma-joe love your work. i can see you're getting alot out off your machine with those one off car parts. your gantry is coming along nice can't wait to see it in opperation. good luck:cheers:

WSS,
I worked in the mining industry for 10 years so I can certainly appreciate the products you produce. I still watch the price of metals and have noticed lately they have rebounded nicely. With the economy the way it is this is good news. What process do you use to (impregnate) the surface of the metal. Is this a submerged arc? I would be curious to see your image to line drawings? I have heard you can do this with jpeg pictures. Would be nice learn more. Please post when you have time.

Morvaman,
Thanks for the kind words. Yes I do enjoy using the Dynatorch. The upgrade will definitely expand my capabilities. I will be curious to see your dual drop design also. Seems there is always something to learn here on the zone. Perhaps after I see WSS's oxy set up I might have to try that to. My Dynatorch was my first CNC. I enjoyed it so much I also recently purchased a CNC knee mill.

magma-joe,
We use a true mig spray to transfer the arc and deposit the TC using a magnetic feeder into the liquid. A little filler wire is used but it is mostly the molten surface used as the binder for the TC. You can control the carbon migration with the amount of volts being output by the CV power supply. TC has a very high melting point so it holds most of it's shape even at the bottom of the puddle. Submerged arc brings back a lot of memories, both my grandfather and dad did quite a bit of submerged arc welding building up wear parts on dozer undercarriages.

I did a real quick job on your gantry clamped to your mill, I will do a video and post it a bit later. The quick version is: turning the image into a grayscale (1) then duplicating the layer (2), inverting the top layer (3), then changing the layer blend mode to "exclusion" on the bottom layer (4), changing the layer blend mode to "difference" on the top layer (5). Now you should have a black image, use your arrow keys (with top layer active) to "nudge" the top layer (6). Each tap of the arrow keys will give or take from the effect, play with it to get the detail you want. Now you have a black background with white details. When you like the contrast, flatten the image (7) and "invert" the image (8). You will now have a line drawing that can be exported. If you have PS-CS3 extended, there are many more export choices. I did this on an older version on my laptop (CS), so I will post it as a jpg.

I am missing something here, it did work but it feels like I missed something. I will check my notes or ask my wife how she does it. She uses it to drop on top of an original copy of the layer (16bit color) to give a dimensional look. It makes an ordinary photo jump at you.

Good luck, PS is a lot of fun and goes on forever. Let me know if it works.

WSS

Edit, I remembered what it was, after the previous steps: open "levels", play with the sliders and watch the contrast change. Click OK when you like it. If the white seems to turn dark (gray), use SELECT>COLOR RANGE and eyedrop (sample) the "gray" and click ok. You will see the marching ants showing the selection. Go to EDIT>CUT, and the gray will disappear. You will have a black and white again!

WSS, it sounds like you have your (I'll call it hard facing) process dialed in. A three generation American business is a wonderful thing. You don't see many of these around but the ones that are do just fine no matter what the economic conditions are. I have a great deal of respect for them.

The line drawing is very interesting. However I'm alittle confused about the program? What program are you using? PS-CS3, CS? I know the hardest thing to convert is a jpeg photograph. I have only played breifly with a jpeg image in Cutting Shop and have heard others talk about the difficulty in converting them also. Perhaps its like anything else and just requires time. I would love to see the video. Thanks

I plan to get a little work in on the table today, I'll try to get some pics later.

magma-joe, sorry about that. I should have said PhotoShop! The program I used is Adobe's Photoshop CS (creative suite), when they update they go by CS2, CS3 and so far up to CS4. To make it even more confusing, in CS3 they added an extended version that does more file conversions, specifically for forensic work. Corel may be able to do layer blend modes, and so might PhotoShop Elements (Adobe's light version of PS and considerably less money). The blend mode of the layers is the key. It can be any photo file type, RAW, jpg, tiff psd. But generally you will export as a jpg. I hope that helps

Lets see some progress pics! I have decided to go with a water table insert. After I get a few hours of running under my belt, I will start the insert build. After reading the link you posted for the victory machine, I can see the advantages. Hope your time spent today was fruitful.
WSS

WSS, That is very interesting information on Photo Shop. I would love to see your video when you have time. I have discovered that the quicker you can go from idea to finished part on your table, the more money you can make. I also like the thought being able to do things your competitors can't. The competition is definitly increasing out there as the economy sinks.

The pics will have to wait another day. Just about the time I was getting started on my gantry my wife called and informed me she got layed off from her job. She was quite upset. I'm going to try again today make some headway on the gantry.

magma-joe, nobody wants to get those type of calls! Sorry to hear that.

You are right on the mark. The quicker and more stuff you can get in your customers hands the better. They tend to call you back first and not shop around too much.

I found a Victor MT310 machine torch w/acetylene mixer that can also use LP on ebay today. It is a good price and new if anyone is interested.

http://cgi.ebay.com/Victor-MT310-Track-Burner-Torch-MT-310-310a-MT310a_W0QQitemZ270440785320QQcmdZViewItemQQptZLH_DefaultDomain_0?hash=item3ef786e5a8&_trksid=p3286.c0.m14

These are probably $400usd from your welding supply. Would be perfect for CNC.

Cheers!
WSS

WSS, well I made a little headway today. I got the gantry ends machined and the 6 x 6 angle notched and one end installed with the first two 3/8 countersink bolts. Its probably overkill however since it's going to be a dual drop I want to be sure it is as rigid as possible. The side trucks will be 1/2" 6061 aluminum. I will fab some different motor mount plates as the existing Dynatorch ones won't work. Here is a couple of pics so you can get the idea. It will look something like the gantry inthe 3rd picture.

magma-joe,
how will you mount the drops? Will it be V-rails on both sides or just the one. The V-rail side with the floating cam followers underneath is pretty clever. Can you incorporate that on both sides? The gantry looks stout enough to put an air drill head if you wanted. I like over built. You only complain about over built once (when your building it!).

I am curious about the dual drop, It would be a nice feature. Will you keep the same water table?

WSS

nice work.

Thanks Morvaman,

WSS, my plan is to use the V rail with spring loaded cam followers underneath on both the master and slave sides. The V wheels on the slave side will be a floating design so as to correct for the V rails not being perfectly parallel with each other. I will redesign the two motor hinge plates that span the 3" width of the gantry ends and mount on the top and bottom of the existing gantry ends.

I am not sure when Dynatorch incorporated the cam follower design underneath. My single motor x axis used a spring loaded cross shaft which help hold the gantry down.

My existing rail mounts that the gantry rides on are a floating style. I will just remount them on the outside of the table and below the table surface. Everything else will remain the same including the water table. I have included a couple of pics I took of the cam follower design from another Dynatorch table I looked at recently.This will give an idea for those who are following along.

magma-joe,
How is the build going? I hope you are so busy you can't find the time to work on it (LOL)! Having a floating slave side should work good with the V-rails on both sides. It would make alignment less critical. I have spent some time at the link you posted awhile back for the victory machines, they have some clever designs. The page about the water table pros and cons sold me. I like there head set-ups as well. They must have a linear bearing that holds both directions (up and down) to be able to drill? That requires a lot of down pressure. Will you do something similar, a dual-V design perhaps?

I will purchase the we-cim and arbor image tomorrow. I had a friend/customer come by today with a piece of cardboard cut into the shape he needed and asked if I could do it. I of course said "yes". So I better do it. I spoke with Gary today (whittlock eng.) and learned a bunch. He said if the item is to big to scan, then take a picture of it with a flat lens, turn it to B&W and import it. I guess it would be important to know the X and Y dimensions to scale it correctly. But he sounded confident. I know you have good luck with it. I like the idea of template to cut file. I do get some DXF files, but it is usually a paper tracing or the actual part. Was the training worth the trip to DT?

Cheers!
WSS

WSS, The build is coming along. I will have some more pics in the next couple of days. My gantry will be just like yours, with 2 linear rails mounted on top. The Victory people do make one serious plasma machine. I have looked at their pictures many times looking for ideas.

As for your question about the We-cim / Arbor Image software training. It is professional grade software and there is alot to learn about both. The We-cim video on the Dynatorch website

http://www.dynatorch.com/UserManual.htm

covers a good portion of the onsite training session. However at the training session you get many application specific questions from the people attending, plus more in depth training in the production type features like nesting, part in part nesting, cad drawing, remanant sheets, chain cutting, etc. I would study the video in depth and then depending on your skill level make a decision whether to go for training. Dynatorch does have a very nice training facility where they manufacture their machines.

Arbor Image offers some training videos on their website. It's funny that you mention the Cutting Shop software today. I had a customer come in with a template of a suspension part they needed 4 of. Here are some pics of the conversion.

THANK-YOU for the info! That is really cool the way it works. I downloaded the file transferred it to my PC and it worked great. Very well done too. I think we will try to do the pilgrimage to Peducah in the near future. Gary said it is a two day class on thurs and fri. I will probably go for three and do a wed training on the table itself. We have to head to Greensboro NC soon, so we will probably do a stop off in KY while were on that side.

Good news that you have made some progress on your gantry. I look forward to the pics. I assume you will be able to run your table close to the end of the retro and be down for just a short time?

What happened to Edwardo? I hope it isn't a case of mistaken identity for him! Somehow I thought he would be home cutting stuff by now.

WSS, If you do make it to Paducha you won't regret it. In addition to learning the machine and software you get an opportunity to meet the people who make up the Dynatorch operation. Plus the training is FREE!

I thought we would hear from Edwardo by now also? From everything they show on the news about Mexico it must be a interesting place to work to say the least........

Hi guys

Made it home 2 nights ago with the same number of holes in my body as when i left, working down there is the same as anywhere else, if you look for trouble you'll find it, i try to fly under the radar and mind my own business and in the almost 3 years ive worked there i havent had a problem, once the people relise you are of no threat they accept you into there communities and homes, i guess the trick is trying NOT to be in the wrong place at the wrong time... anyways i've been trying to shake the cob webs outta my head and cleaning up my garage getting ready to spark up... You guys are really moving along on your projects, your workmanship is professional to say the least... Trick questions for everyone, say you want to cut up a 4x8 sheet into gussets, half the sheet is 4" gussets, the other half is 6" gussets, how many can you make of each, how many peirces and how many inches of cutting for the entire sheet...? would you draw the 2 different size gussets then nest them on the sheet?
I drew it up in corel 3x this morning and ran it through sheetcam and into the DT program.... Hint: according to the DT program i will take 27.64 minutes to cut the entire 1/8th - 4x8 sheet @ 115 ipm...
I havent cut it yet but i had inquired 6 months ago about making gussets for a company, at the time they said no thanks but then contacted me just recently for more info on them, so i had to draw it up, i wasnt sure how to go about it but i wanted the least amount of peirces, the minimum amount of inches cutting with the minimum amount of waste...another hint, there is zero waste.... lol
I know you guys are busy and may not have time for this, so i'll post my results and how i did it tommorow just the same...

EDD

Edwardo,
That makes complete sense! Treat people with respect and the rest will follow. I did keep an eye out for you on the news though (lol).

HEADLINE: Core drilling supervisor has sample taken, news at 10.

On these gussets, are they right triangles (to shorts and a long) with no curves? If so, will you remove the web and make one cut for two pieces?

WSS

WSS

Thanks for keeping a eye out for me on the news....lol

yes all right angle gussets, a 4x4 square cut diagonally from corner to corner..
I look real hard at We-Cim and almost bought it, i watched the video and the part with the deer where you can take a photo and manipulate it with different shades of black interested me, but the price ( i think was 1700 ) at the time was alittle steep.. im having good luck with corel draw, its a big program with no doubt alot of things i will never use, but as time goes on i am using things i didnt think i ever would, once you have the basics figured out then you can try some other things and experiment... its taken me awhile to learn corel with being away alot, i seem to have to relearn what i learnt the last time home, but its coming along... it has a trace portion in it but i never had any luck with tracing bitmaps with it and usually just do it manually with the bezier tool, it takes longer but the results are better.
I made a couple of address signs for guys, they gave me the rough size and shape of the boulder they want to mount the sign to, so i drew up the boulder and colored it grey, then added the metal cut outs to it in black, everything was to scale and i email it to them to show them what it would look like for there approval... they were impressed with that and it didnt take long to do it as i already had the sign drawing done and just had to add it to the boulder... they just were'nt sure how big the sign should be on the boulder and 1 guy asked for his to be alittle larger, so about one click on the mouse i resized his sign and charged him a extra 25 bucks and he was happy.
I may have posted these pics before, i can't remember... but it shows the bitmap i used to make the cut out using the bezier tool, i did it more for practise than anything, for some reason the pic makes the edges look rough, but they are actually smooth... note the left eye brow, this was also one of the first cuts i made in aluminum and was messing around with my settings and crashed the torched... but i recovered and it gives it character...lol

EDD

Ok heres my results, peirces @ 1.....3178.3 inches cutting......128 @ 6" gussets.... 288 @ 4" gussets.....115 ipm... 27.6 minutes cutting time.

I had seen a grid option in corel and thought id give it a try, i set the grid at
4" squares and used the bezier tool to zig zag up the first colum, this would cut out every second gusset, at the top of the colum it would cut straight back across the sheet cutting off the remain gussets, and continue across the sheet to mid point, there i switched to a 6" grid and continued the same way, i may have to turn off the thc as i will be cutting right to the edge and over the corner edges of other gussets already cut out to prevent the torch from diving though, i havent cut it yet, so it may not go as planned, draw for show and cut for dough....
Joe after seeing the parts you cut out i may have to have another look at we-cim... nice job...

I had planned on cutting as soon as i got home, but my wife had plans on me finishing the reno i started last time, happy wife happy life i was told not to long ago so im working on the reno again...

EDD

Edwardo, thanks for the compliment on the cut outs. Although $1800.00 sounds like alot for the We-cim / Cutting shop software it really is a deal. It is a package of 2 different programs from 2 different companies. I looked on the Arbor Image site and the Cutting shop software sells for $1195 alone.

The WE-cim package comes standard with all the Dynatorch Master Series machines. It is professional grade software oriented torward businesses and production. When I was shopping for a CAD CAM 3 axis software for my mill I was shocked to find that it sells anywhere from $3000 to $20,000 and many companies charge a yearly "maintenance fee". That made me really appreciate the We-cim price.

Here is an update on the gantry build.

I finished drilling and mounting the 6 x 6 angle plates for the gantry ends. I have included a pic of the one of the gantry end plates I just finished milling. The end plates will be bolted to the angle and then additional gussets will run from top to bottom.

I will attach the piece of 1 1/2" x 3" aluminum extrusion on the bottom of the plate. All the factory Dynatorch hardware will bolt directly on with the exception of the motor pivot brackets. I will fab a new set of these for each side. I wanted to keep the dual drop as simple as possible and use as much as possible of the original Dynatorch hardware.

magma-joe,
Very nice! Great detail and looks strong.

Our we-cim was on the porch (UPS) when we got home today.

WSS

WSS, thanks.

Now that you have the We-cim software package the learning curve starts. In the software you can save setups for all types of different material sizes thickness, and cutting tool sizes. Each time you import a file you will be asked what setup you want to use.

Included in each setup is the kerf compensation for the plasma nozzel size you are using be it 40, 60, 80 amp or whatever, material type, thickness and size. Once you load your tool library with different nozzels and the kerf compensation for each nozzel amperage size, it becomes part of the setup you choose from when importing the file. From then on it all becomes automatic.

You can also make setups for all kinds of different lead in's and lead outs. Just choose the one you have specificly made for the material you are cutting when you generate your code. It all adds up to cutting the best looking most accurate parts possible. It allows you to easily dial in your machine for every application and choose those saved parameters each time you work with a file. This is just a couple of the features We-cim has.

The aesthetics of the part are what the customer sees. Since most of the parts I make are for street rods, they have to be the best possible. A street rod that makes all the car shows could easily have thousands of people looking over the car. The We-cim software helps alot.

magma-joe,
The parts that you make will not only be seen by many, but for a long time as well. I want to produce the best possible cut surface as well. The parts we make are usually put in the ground. But our stuff is also re-sold. So it may sit on a shelf for a while. with parts managers and salespeople looking them over. Of all things a nice paint job and a clear parts label goes a long way! We are looking forward to learning the we-cim software inside out. One of the neat things I think we will be able to implement is the way in which I capture the file. I will have to rely on our field reps to get accurate pictures and dimensions. I am hoping with a X and Y dimension and a straight on picture, I can create an accurate part. My partner (and wife) is really good at setting up methods and training the guys in the field. I simply cannot travel all over So. Cal. making templates and drawings, so I am hoping it will work. We will do a few small tests to get a good idea how to best work it. Is the USB dongle thing hooked permanently to the software? It will be inconvenient if it is. I am using a dell laptop to do all of the work regarding the DT files, it will be portable in a sense.

Thanks again for the info!
WSS

WSS, I can not offer much info on converting jpeg images to vectors. As you probably know by now there is a chapter devoted to this in the manual. I would recomend getting familiar with the process and then call Arbor Image and explain what your situation is and desired results are. I am sure they can help you get up to speed faster.

It also sounds as if your wife will be a huge asset to you in training your reps. A machine operator / programer is the the one person who truly knows what is needed to create a file and cut your part. Getting this accross to the person who is taking the measurments will be very important. When you ruin a cut on a piece of 6" x 6" 16 Gauge you can throw it in the trash. A large thick plate would be much more costly. Perhaps when taking pictures you could include something of a known dimention to check against when scaling sizes?

You can install the software on as many computers as you want however the dongle will be required each time you boot the program. This is the way the high end software companies protect themselves from people pirating their software.

Once you process your file and create the g code to run the machine you will have to find a method to transfer it to the computer running the Dynatorch machine. There are several methods I have found.

1. Save it to a USB thumb drive and hand carry it to the machine computer.
2. Transfer the file via a wireless network.
3. If you have internet access at your machine computer and a web based email service you could just email the file to yourself from the laptop and retrieve it with the machine computer.

From day one I have been using method one. However I plan to change to method 3 soon. I have discovered that after a few hundred or perhaps thousand cycles of inserting and removing the USB memory drives it tends to wear out the terminal sockets. I guess you could add a USB hub or a socket saver to prolong the life of the USB'S,
http://www.l-com.com/productfamily.aspx?id=3150
but method 3 seems to offer more benefits.

Method 3 offers the benefits of:

Easily updating your Dynatorch machine software from their subscription website. And if Dynatorch follows the lead of some other CNC manufacturers in the future and offers remote access for machine diagnosis, your machine would need internet access.

Forget hand carring the USBs and wearing out the sockets.

You could creat a file from anywhere and have it available at your machine.

And when you get bored you could always go to your favorite websites with out leaving the machine!:cheers:

magma-joe,
I am happy that you didn't say I was off my rocker! At least I have a glimmer of hope for my idea. The idea of having a known size is great and I will find something that I can use, maybe a hi-quality square (somewhat large). The difficulty in training the reps is keeping a streamlined profile. We work with at least ten different companies who all have their own "style" of salesmenship. Some are laid back, some will peck you on the forehead until you buy something! They all are good at what they do but getting them to agree on a specific way of doing things is another animal all together.

I have been playing with we-cim for a few nights now and have yet to figure out how to flip or rotate a part to make a tighter nest automatically. I can manually place them but I can do that easy enough in sheetcam. I am missing a key element.

I hope you had a chance to work on your retro over the weekend!

WSS

WSS, I have heard that jpeg images can be converted. I will be interested to hear your outcome. It could certainly be a huge benefit and time saver.

The WE-cim software will automaticly nest your parts to your specs. You can manually play around however you can "tell" the software how many times you want the part rotated while it is figuring out the nest. You can also choose from 4 selections from a loose nest to a nest so tight it makes you squeak. If you review the training video section on single and multiple parts nesting it covers the parameters you have to choose from.

Here is the gantry update. I got in about a day and a half of work so I made a little headway. You can see in the pics the gantry ends beginning to take shape. Both ends will look the same. I will start fab work on the motor pivot brackets next.

magma-joe,
Is the mill CNC? Looking good! Aluminum is fun to work with. You feel like you have accomplished something at the end of the day. Seems like I remember you saying you were getting into a CNC mill. If so, how is it working? Your parts look real good. I see you have a belt grinder too, that is a nice machine for finish work. Is that a "sit in front" type or is it off of it's stand?

Cheers
WSS

WSS, thanks for the kind words,

Yes the mill is CNC. It opened a whole new world of being able to make parts. I do love it. As for the belt sander, it is connected to a 5hp Baldor buffer I use for polishing parts. It is mounted on a 5 x 8 frame with a 3hp buffer on one end and the 5hp on the other. I roll it around with a pallet jack. Polishing is a dirty process but a mirror shine adds to the bottome line.

Did you get my PM?

magma-joe, I did get your pm. I'll contact you tonight.

Polishing and belt grinding, that sounds like a knife makers shop. I have a small shop in our basement where I can hide from real work. I have a 2X72 belt grinder down there that I love to put steel to for relaxation. Polishing is messy I agree, especially when you use that toothy file looking thing to condition the wheel, all of that rouge coated cotton floating around! My dog loves the coarse brown rouge the best, we have to fight over it to see who gets to eat or use it first.

WSS

Gantry update,

After drilling 104 holes, countersinking 52, and tapping 56 of them I have lost count of of the hours spent so far. I probably have another 100 holes or so to go with mounting 30 feet of gear rack and 24' of V rail and square cam follower guide rail. Next thing on the gantry will be mounting the gear rack and then fabricating the motor mount pivot brackets and a new slave side motor mount base plate.

I like the new style Dynatorch y axis carriage assembly with dual linear rails. It seems much more rigid than my current one. The rigidity will be very important when using the Dynascribe.

I have included one picture of the floating V guide wheel assembly. It is just a longer sholder bolt for the wheel to float on. It will go on the slave side and compensate for any alignment issues between the master and slave side. The spring loaded guide wheels will be used on both master and slave side to hold the gantry down.

For those of you following along with earlier model Dynatorch machines, I will also be updating the electronics in the Z axis THC. This is a simple upgrade and can be done for about $5.00 with a part from radio shack.

That will work great! I see now how the V bearing can "track", it simply slides on the shoulder bolt. I assume the master will be solid and the slave will have the floating bearing? With the T slot mount you could add a few of the floaters mounted on a bogie or truck/trunion for a really stable (triangle) ride if you needed to, and use only the two underside cam followers for hold down pressure. The long shoulder bolts could even be twice the diameter for lateral stability. Just an idea. I have had to install sub x axis floaters on two of our machines. I have used round rail linear solid for one that has 400lbs of upward pressure on a 1.5" supported rail. It only moves about .100"over 172" but I could never have aligned the rail within tolerance to the master side and it is only 12" away. That binding feeling and sound is not sweet music. I have to say the DT carriage rolls smooth with no hint of that creaking, binding feeling.

I need to add that the gantry looks awesome!

Edwardo, did you cut the gusset file you posted? I have a similar "no web" file I need to make and am wondering if it worked. Is that called chain cutting?

WSS

Magma-Joe your gantry looks great, i can only imagine how much thought and time it takes to build but in the end i'll bet its worth every minute. Thanks for the links also, it is good reading.

WSS i havent fired up yet, i had some left over reno material laying in my shop so i decided to do another room while im all set up for that type of work, then took the weekend off and went fishing :wee:

i ( hope ) to start up in a few days, i'll do a dry run of that gusset dxf file and see how it goes then and let you know, it should work as i put it through sheet cam and there were no problems, i ran it through the post proccessor and it loaded into DT... but i guess i wont know for sure until i actually cut it.
Im not sure what that type of cutting is called, its just something i drew up but i had to think about it for awhile, i knew what i wanted to do but i wasnt sure how to do it, so hopefully it works out.

Regards
EDD

Edwardo, WSS, thanks.

WSS, your bogie idea sounds interesting. It would be very stable. Thats what I love about the CNC Zone, so many ideas to think about.

Edwardo, I am curious to see how your gusset file works out. Keep us posted.

magma-joe,

I forgot to mention the $avings too, twice the rail and v-rbearing life from the lower psi.

It is 111f in my shop today today and I still have a few more hour s to go!

WSS

111 f ... definetly beer drinkin weather....68 f in my garage... thats still beer drinkin weather....:cheers:

WSS ive been meaning to ask, and maybe its a dumb question... but how does the thc work with oxy-acet torches??

EDD

Edwardo,
I am not sure how it is going work. I know in demo mode it is all pre-set before the cut starts. I think the up n down buttons are set to move 1/16" per click. You pick the pierce height,the pre-heat time, pierce delay time, and the cut height. I believe it is set once by zeroing it. I will keep you posted when I give it a run. I think all the DT software has the oxy screen available, if you have it, try to do some mock settings and let me now what you find (pretty please). I can only run in demo mode at the moment.

WSS

WSS

I seen the icon for oxy cutting on my sceen, but i have never checked it out, if i get a chance tommorow im going to at least move my gantry around and check that gusset drawing, i got a call today to head back to work on friday, so my plans of cutting for a couple weeks just got blown out of the water again...

EDD

WSS

I seen the icon for oxy cutting on my sceen, but i have never checked it out, if i get a chance tommorow im going to at least move my gantry around and check that gusset drawing, i got a call today to head back to work on friday, so my plans of cutting for a couple weeks just got blown out of the water again...

EDD

Is that two rounds now without cutting? You better enjoy that 68 degree weather while you can.
:stickpoke

WSS

Funny how things change so fast, as it stands now i dont have to return to work for awhile so i ordered up some aluminum for tommorow, i ran that gusset file ( dry run ) and it works perfect, 1 peirce then zig zags across the table then comes straight back across the sheet... :banana:
As near as i can say with the oxy option you just set your pre heat time, peirce height and cutting height so im assuming its a manual thc, but with oxy you are cutting thick sheets so it will be flat and level with it being to heavy to warp... and cutting slow enough ipm that you can adjust it as you need to...

EDD

Edwardo, how did you make your file with only one pierce?

Hi Joe

I laid out a 4'x8' grid pattern in corel @ 4' squares to start, then using the bezier tool i drew 1 continuos line zig zagging across the 4" grid, this would cut out every second gusset on the first colum, once it cut to the far side of the sheet the same line cut straight back across the sheet cutting off the remaining gussets in the first 4" colum, then the same line ran the same way for the second colum and so on until i cut half the sheet at which time when i drew it up i had changed the grid to a 6" grid and then continued the same line through out it, each cut line was for 2 gussets side by each so there is zero waste of material, and only 1 peirce to start the cutting, after that it is one continuos cut for the entire sheet. If i ever cut it i will take some vids and post them...

EDD

Edwardo, If you cut it post some pics. With that many pieces and depending on the material and thickness, I would think it might be a little warm at the end of the cut?

My local metal supplier (Industrial Metal Supply) has a section of their warehouse dedicated to short lengths of all types of materials. One row is all gussets of differest sizes and thickness. When I was strolling the (gusset aisle) it made me think of of your file for gussets.

It is my favorite store. They have precuts of rounds, squares, gussets, of every size, 4 x 4 sheets and a huge selection of remaments in stainless, aluminum, mild steel and other more exotic metals.

I am curious what prices you guys are seeing from your suppliers. Here they are charging 40 cents per pound for steel rems and $1.50 for aluminum. I have been watching the commodity market for metals lately and they have gone way up. I hope they don't get back to where they were at there peak because steel and aluminum prices were so high it hurt the market for metal products. Plus it could bring the copper theives back.

Hi Joe

You made a good point about over heating, it never even dawned on me!!
My thinking was more to speed and no material waste, its a 27 min cut so i may have to break it down and create pauses for the torch to cool off, i think i read somewhere that can be done in sheetcam so i'll look it up, like you said before this is a great site to have other people look at your idea and make comments or suggestions... thanks

I just bought 4 sheets of 5052 1/8th-4'x8' aluminium yesterday, total cost with tax was $730.00 CAD, you need to order a day ahead of pic-up and when i ordered i was concerned about scratches etc on the sheets because in the raw form may be the finish for some things i want to make, anyways when i picked it up the 4 sheets were on a pallet, layered with a cardboard cushion on the bottom, another cardboard layer on the top, a cardboard bumper around the outside edges, and a layer of paper between each sheet,
when i opened it up at home the sheets were flawless, so that was a relief to see..
I havent seen a place here to buy pre-cut peices like gussets or rems or end peices or anything, we have scap yards and such but i cant see me rooting around in them unless i want some rusted metal for something.
The big shops will cut steel for you, but there prices are high with them running million dollar cnc tables that are opperating on a production scale, I was lucky enough to have a guy i met take me on a little tour of there plant were i buy my metal, they have some serious machines in there and they were cutting full on from what i seen, but everything has its place... i could never begin to compete with them, and they wouldnt want to do the cutting i do because it wouldnt be worth there time...

so thats where the gusset idea came from, where it goes from here i guess is up to me now, designing and cutting is the easy part, finding someone to buy them is the tough part for me, marketing isnt one of my strong points but if i want to start a business its something i have to learn...

The last time i hauled rems to a scrap yard i got 20 bucks for a pic up full... it paid for some gas going to pick up new sheets, i forget the price per pound but its not much but its on the way to the supplier...

The gusset you seen, are they sold per pound or per peice? I have looked here to try and find prices to compare mine to, but there just isnt any, retailers that do sell new steel and aluminium in short peices buy there stock at the same place i do, then at least double the mark up, but they dont have gussets or anything like that...

EDD

Edwardo, for giggles I called our local steel house and got a quote the same as yours. They call it the "good guy price", now it's hit and miss wether I get that pricing level. But he did say today I could have it for 568.11CAD (521.32usd). We are in mainstream So. Cal so the prices might be based on availability also.

I have a question here, What magma-joe was saying about the heat:

With no web or support to hold the cut pieces in place, how do you keep the parts from warping out of tolerance? Do you clamp the material somehow? I noticed in we-cim they have a checkbox on how to avoid a clamp. I assumed they meant ground clamp, but maybe it means "clamp". And maybe it doesn't mean avoid but rather how to work with it for warpage. I have a tendency to use a wide web in order to hold the part to tolerance. This way it only warps the width of the kerf and the parts are usually in tolerance. I have a sheet I need to cut of 3"X8"X.5" pieces with two 11/16" holes on each. It would be nice if I could use one cut for two pieces like the gusset file. Do the holes throw it out of the realm of reality?

WSS, the clamp avoidance feature could be anything you want to avoid a torch collision with. The We-cim program also allows you to cut in zones on the sheet. You could program the software to cut x number of parts in one zone until heat build up becomes a factor mataining tolerance and then have the torch move to the oposite end of the sheet into another zone which has no heat build up.

Depending on the amount of cutting a, water table with the water splashing on the underside of the material could be useful. I have also used a pump up (pesticide sprayer) filled with water and manually sprayed the material during the cut to aid in keeping warpage down.

Edwardo, when I buy my aluminum sheet I have my supplier laminate it with a PVC covering to protect it from scratches. It works quite well. You might have seen it before, it is white. Alot of the laser people use it to cut down on the reflection when laser cutting, as this afects the laser's performance.

I cut the aluminum with the laminate still on the sheet. It does leave a small melted blackened edge in some areas but it can be easily removed with lacquer thinner. When I remove the sheet after cutting it still has the new finish. It costs me an extra $15.00 per side to have it laminated.

WSS
Thats quite a price difference, last week when i called the first time they told me the sheets were $135 plus tax each, about what you are paying there, but when i ordered this week they told me $160 plus tax.... i asked about it but they said who ever quoted that was wrong, i'll check back with them next week again to make sure i didnt hosed, its my first time buying aluminium.... the other aluminium i used was given to me to try out...

As for clamping the sheets down, i have never done that... 1/16th is the worst for warping and lifting off the slats, i had a video on utube showing me pushing down on the sheet when peircing, the DASH would eliminate having to do that but i cant justify the cost rite now. I had one sheet of 1/16th that i cut up last winter and it had 1150 peirces, i was spraying water on the sheet while cutting as a test to keep the dust and smoke down, plus to help it from warping and it worked well...with .5 inch plate i dont think you will get much, if any warping... but then again i am speculating because i have not cut up a sheet of .5, you may want to have a water supply handy to cool it off.. I know when i cut aluminium the first time the part warped on me, it was just a trial run cutting 3/16th, the peice was about 3"x12", but i was also using a 80amp nozzle and my 1250 set at 80 amps, just because it was all i had and wanted to give it a go, it was way overkill and to much heat, and no water, but it sure made a nice cut, and fast ... lol, using fine cut with low amps after that didnt seem to warp the 3/16th at all.. plus i still spray water regardless when cutting aluminium...

Depending on how close of tolerance you need on your parts, you may have to include the kerf width with in your drawing, with simple gussets i did not as it doesnt really matter if they are exact, so they are 4" gussets minus half the kerf width of fine cut consumables on each side... i doubt cutting the holes will effect anything as they will all be cut out first and you should be able to set it up so your torch is cutting them in different areas of the sheet.

Joe i may have not read your post right, were you talking about heat on the plate or the torch over heating? do you think a 1250 can cut @ 35 amps for 30 minutes straight with out stopping?

EDD

Edwardo, I was talking about the heat buildup in the plate. As you pointed out the plasma machine's duty cycle could also be a factor. I looked in the Hypertherm 1250 manual and the 100% duty cycle rating of the machine is not listed.

magma-joe,
I hope I have not hi-jacked your thread. It just seems like a good place to hang out! I really appreciate the helpful answers too.

Edwardo, are you in a remote location or a small town? That may account for your having only one supplier and they feel empowered. It is hard to hose people too many times down here. They just move on to the next guy. Magma-joe, I think we have a industrial metal supply in so cal as well, i think I have tried them. It seems they had some really odd CRS bar stock I needed, like 2.25"sq. We have quite a few steel yards around us, some specialise in AR and others aluminum and such. I have not shopped for plate though . Most of the cutting we do our customer will supply the steel. I imagine that will change when we get up and running. Also we have a few industrial hardware stores around us. My favorite is McFaddden-Dale industrial hardware. They leave home depot and lowes in the dust. Where else can you get quenching oil, 4-40 buttton head cap screws and transfer punches at the same time?

Have a great and safe weekend!
WSS

Gantry update,

I finally finished the master and slave motor pivot brackets and the new slave side motor base mounting plate. As you can see in the pics the original Dynatorch motor base plates have the motor centering hole offset to one side. In order to use it on the opposite slave side I had to make another plate with the hole reversed.

The master and slave sides will be mirror images of each other.

Magma-joe,

Dude, I want to come play in your shop! That is pretty nice. You have been working on this for awhile I see. Just the drawings must have taken some time. I notice in the pic where you have the parts clamped in the mill that there is some (for lack of a better word) perforations on the parts, is that to hold them in while milling? If so how thick are they and do you have to build that into the CNC file? I can see where CNC is a bug! That looks like fun. I bet that has opened up a world of opportunities for you.

Looking Good!

WSS

I am envious of your skills and patience, i would never even attempt to do what you are doing, looking forward to seeing it in action...

EDD

Thanks WSS,
The perforations you speak of are called tabs. They keep the part from dropping out when the end mill makes the last pass. It is a feature in the Vetric Vcarve cad cam software I use. The brackets are 1/4" thick.

The shop and tool collection has been a work in progress for over 20 years. When I purchased the Dynatorch machine it was addictive and within a couple of years a CNC mill appeared. So watch out WSS, your Dynatorch will put a smile from ear to ear.

Thanks Edwardo,
Sometimes I wonder myself what the heck am I getting myself into?

magma-joe,
How is the progress, this is like waiting for the next sequel of my favorite movie. I can't wait to see some pics! I hope all is well and you are too busy to get to it.

My DT stuff was delivered today and I will probably have a chance to get to it this weekend.

Look forward to your progress!

WSS

WSS, really glad to hear you received your harness. I am anxious to see some pics of your machine cutting! I know it is a long journey from the time you decide you need a CNC plasma machine till the first sparks fly. All well worth the effort when you cut your first part!

As for my project, I have been working through the details of the next stages. After finishing the gantry, I started taking measurements for the wiring harness and the plasma torch cable. With my dual drop design and a longer gantry that extends past the outside table frame rails, both the plasma torch cable and wiring harness are to short for the Y axis. This will require splicing in a section of the harness and relocating the plasma cutter closer to the z lifter station. I have also been looking for some different size pinion gears to speed up the rapid speeds. I am ordering those today to get them on the way. I will try to post some pics soon.

Gantry Update;

The new extended length gantry required splicing in a section of cable to the Y axis motor and moving the plasma generator closer to the Z axis station. The existing plasma torch cable is 25', making it a little short

I also added lowered mounts (like the koike table in the pic) for the X axis rails to be remounted on. Since the machine has floating X axis rails already it will be easy to move them to the lower elevation mounts.

Looking good Joe, i can understand your plan better now after seeing these pictures, so your rails were always bolted on, not welded?
Looking at the slats it seems 1 is notched and the next isnt, almost like 2 different sets, or is it just the picture?
I can see now why you have your aluminium laminated... man this stuff scratches easy... im glad i dont have to polish it, just sand and use a soft pad for texture... i'll post a aluminium moose i cut on the pics & vid thread..
I bumped up the cutting speed to 145 ipm also, basically dross free cutting..

EDD

Thanks Edwardo, the reason for bolting on the rails is the ability to have infinite adjustment between the 2 x axis rails. It makes it very easy to perfectly align the rails with each other.

Every other slat is pointed. When I first built the table I thought I would experiment with pointed slats. They work great, I just have not got around to doing the rest.

magma-joe,
Don't you just want to stop all other projects and stay with this one? Especially when you are this close and all is going good! I will repeat Edwardo, the direction is clear now. I notice (or it seems like) the brackets you welded on to support the rail system are notched or shorter on one side than the other? Will it be similar to your current mount (with adjustments)? The adjustable rails looks like a winner. Kind of a floating rail with infinite adjustment. The first time I have a sheet of 2" plate on my table I will wish I had thought of that!

Nice work!

WSS

WSS, thanks! And you are so right about wanting to stay on this project until it is finished. I am 4 months into it now from when I started ordering the parts.

The extra length on 2 of the new lowered X rail support brackets is a mounting surface for the 2 x 3" angle iron that the Igus Chain rides on for the X axis. Also, you and I previously discussed the issue of the abrupt angle of the torch cabling and near touching of the X axis master motor. I intend to reverse the direction of the Igus chain as it approaches the x axis motor in order to avoid this issue.

If you look at the link for the Dynatorch solid model you will will get a better idea of what I am talking about. Under the section "Technical Information " click on the "Drop Side Dual Drive" and select run to open the program.
http://www.dynatorch.com/Map.htm

You can see the chain is reversed which creates gentle sweep for the cable to make on its way to the Z torch station.

The existing X rail mounting plates have slotted holes for side to side adjustment and bolts for elevation changes, I will cut and reweld them to the new lowered x axis rail mounting brackets. For anyone following along, at the conclusion of this project I will have the complete original gantry for sale alongth with all gear rack.

Hello Magma-Joe

How are things progressing? I have a question(s) regarding polishing alum...
do you sand the surface first then use a buffing pad for that nice finish on your parts? If so what grit do you use or steps do you take to get a nice mirror finish? Forgot to ask, do you seal the finished alum with anything like wax or clear coat?

Regards
EDD

Edwardo, I have been busy drilling holes for mounting the V rail and 1/2" x 1/2" square bar that the lower idler wheels ride on. Each side has 50 holes to drill and 25 to tap. I built a fence on the milling machine table to get the rail within .010 . Very time consuming process. When it comes to lining up the rails I want them as straight as I can possibly get them.

If you start with blemish free aluminum there is no need to sand. Buffing will work for very light scratches only. I have included a link that might help you understand better. If I do have a deeper scratch I start with 320 or 400 grit along with sanding grease and then buff from there. Sanding is a pain so I always strive for blemish free aluminum to start with. I use a product called Wenol to protect the finish. It also works fantastic for polishing.

http://www.caswellplating.com/buffs/buffman.htm

http://www.2spi.com/catalog/supp/supp3a.php

Thanks for the links Joe, alot of good info..

Your time spent now will pay dividends in the future, after seeing your slats i decided to modify mine, it took half the day but was worth it, i cut up a nested sheet of alum yesterday and the difference was amazing, i had peices come off the table that i couldnt tell the difference from top to bottom as there was zero dross, the odd place were the slat was touching and it happened to be under the cut line had a little peice on it, but nothing like before. With the slats modified though i will definetly need the DASH when i can afford it because the smaller parts do push down more, plus i get more tip ups, but the nicer cuts and finished product is well worth it.

EDD

Update;
Been busy with work last couple of weeks but finally had some time to work on gantry. I purchased some gear stock for the new pinion gears. The current pinion gears that Dynatorch is using with their new machines are 1" in diameter. Since I am using the earlier 28 to 1 planetary gear boxes, I needed a 1 1/2" diameter pinion to speed it back up to about 850IPM at 5000RPM motor speed.

The gear stock is extruded and is 6 to 8 AGMA gear quality. I paid $28.00 a ft. So if any of you want to experiment , you can buy it here.

http://www.grobinc.com/coldrolled/std_spur_gears.htm

magma-joe,
That is really neat. I have not seen anything as that. I checked out the link and found some interesting stuff. I don't have anything close to concentric enough to try turning myself. Although with the air tensioner I could get away with a little wobble (LOL).

Looking Good! I imagine it is staying busy for you? We have been busier than usual. We hope it holds out over the winter, we have really tuff winters here in So Cal!

WSS

WSS, thanks for the reply. I am anxious to hear about your machines first sparks. For us, business is slow. Other than a few minor details I am ready to install the new gantry. I have been putting it off though for fear of the machine being down and a much needed job showing up during the swap.

It appears that you and Edwardo are the only people who are interested enough in this thread to reply to my posts. Although, at 4500 views people must be reading it.

I HAVE DECIDED TO TAKE A POLL;

How many of you reading this thread want to see the project to the end?

Hi Magma-Joe. I am one of the people following both yours and WSS's build, and I must say it has been a very interesting ride and I wouldn't want it to end here. Both of you have a very good build and some interesting ideas for others to follow.
Cheers

MJ ,

Please keep us informed!

Very good post

Thanks

Tom

Magma-joe,
I certainly like to see/read what's happening with your build. I may be slightly biased toward the DT machine and it probably shows but it's my opinion. And it's the same with yours, who knows how many people have taken even a small amount of knowledge and information and applied it to their situation. As you have seen, 4800+ views show that many are at least curious.

Please, lets see it cut some parts!!!

My gantry arrived yesterday. With it was a part they cut before shipping it. I am truly impressed. I'll post some pics over the next couple of days on the 6X12 thread.

WSS

WSS, Excellent! Glad to here you will be cutting soon. Please post some pics. I will continue to post some pics of the build although I am disappointed at the response to my poll. Thanks to those of you who did respond.

I noticed Leon at Dynatorch Technical support posted a message asking if anyone needed help with their Dynatorch machines.
http://www.cnczone.com/forums/showthread.php?t=91053

He must feel like the Maytag man?

Ya, I was going to make up some questions for him. I don't want his brain to rust tight. Actually he is really busy with a top secret project for the fabtech show...........

WSS

Hey Magma,
This is Homer, still haven't bought or built a table. Do you know if the Miller 675 torch has a converstion from hand held to machine? I have done well with the hand held making extra money doing so. I looked at local sites and the miller web site and did'nt even see one for the new 625 extreme. I would like to know before the build, none the less it will happen with thanks to your suggestions.

Homer, I can't comment about the Miller 675 as I don't know much about it. I'm sure it is a good machine as Miller makes good products. In addition to the machine torch it also requires a robotic interface. I can tell you that what ever machine you use, it will go through a bunch of consummables. So the availability of consummables is very important.

I personally use the Hypertherm 1250 and have been very happy with it.
The new Hypertherm Powermax 45 looks like an excellent machine and can be had with a machine torch also.
https://www.hypertherm.com/library/files/Product%20Information/SB_860280.pdf

Jim Colt has posted pics of some nice cuts with the Powermax 45 and a plasmacam here on the CNC zone.

Gantry update; The gantry upgrade has reached the point of no return. I started stripping the original single side drive gantry today so there is no turning back now.

Due to the increased weight of the new gantry I decided to add adjustable swivel type supports for the middle lowered rail support brackets. The pace will have to pick up now as now I am without a working plasma.

A little more headway today. Time for the piano wire to line things up. Only 52 more holes to drill and tap! Once I get the new 24 pitch gear rack and V rails mounted I will relocate the 3 x 3 rails to the new brackets on the outside of the frame.

I would say you are fairly well committed now. Don't worry or look back to the shore. Turn your eye to the sail and trust the wind to take you there.

Just what you need, right? A little encouragement.

It looks like it is moving good. How are you drilling and tapping? On quantity holes like that, I use a gun (or spiral) tap in my 18v 1/2" dewalt and some cool tool. I can do up to 5/16" in one pass. 3/8" is trickier. I have even done as small 4-40!

How close to your parts can you get your water? I am wondering if your slats set below your your tank or water level. I need to be able to load the table with a forklift and not "drop" the plate to its position. I am hoping to make the tank the same height as the slats and not fill all the way, maybe 1/2" below. Will this work?

I know you gotta get your machine up so no hurry responding.

WSS

WSS, I have never tried the cordless drill tapping method for fear of breaking a tap in one of the holes. The holes are 10/32 thread. The cordless sure would be alot faster! I still have one gear rail I will need to drill and tap 26 holes in on the mill before installing it on the table. It does take an incredibly long time however I want it to be as straight as possible.

On each 3 x 3 rail there is a piece of 3/4" x 2" cold rolled bolted to the top. When I first built the machine I had them surface ground to make sure I had a perfectly flat / straight surface to mount the gear rack and V rails to. They worked great.

My slats are about 1/2" below the height of the top edge of the water tank. My goal was to to be able to fill the tank to perhaps an 1/8" over the top of the part. I have never filled it to the top and normally cut about 3" to 4" below the material. For thin material this works fine, keeps the dust and smoke down.

I was also concerned about dropping heavy plate on my table so I purchased 2 lifting magnets. They are very expensive but work excellent!

http://www.earthchain.com/ez-lift-magnetic-lifting.htm

I have not broken a tap yet. But I will the next time I try it for saying so. A nice feature of a gun tap is it starts and feeds really straight. If your hole is straight, it will follow. I will use two drills, one with the bit and a piece as thick as you are drilling with a hole the same diameter that I can clamp or push down to drill through to get it upright and straight. I like to use a transfer punch to get a dimple if it is possible, scribing and scratching are my second option and least accurate. The second has the gun tap chucked, Use a drill you are comfortable with and let it feed itself with the trigger all the way on low speed, stop and back out the same with little movement or flex and it should work OK. Keep a cutting fluid on it and blow off the tap every couple of holes with air to keep it from loading the thread of the part. If you feel almost any torque, stop and see what's up. I usually find I forgot to use cool tool or blow it off. The trick is in and out with the same movement. I mentioned I had done up to 3/8", but I actually did 1/2" on our DT with a milwaukee hole hawg. The reason I used it was because I could use a key to tighten the jacobs chuck. The cordless chucks don't tighten quite enough. Which reminds me to mention keeping the cutting fluid off the chuck jaws to avoid the slippage on the road.

Cool link! Which one did you get? I like that it does not rely on electricity. Did you notice the "de-burring" page? That looks like a timesaver.

Hope your build is moving along. Look forward to ome updates and pics!

WSS

WSS, I finished drilling and tapping 25 -10/32 holes in the 3/4" thick cold rolled bar yesterday. The mounting of the gear rack and V rail is finished on the master side, now to move on to the slave. Only 36 more holes to go!

Funny thing happened yesterday while tapping the holes. I broke 2 taps. The first one was a high speed steel tap I had used for several hundred holes and the 2nd one was a new high carbon tap I just purchased. I hate when that happens, now I am spooked! Murphy has struck!

My luck ran out tapping 3/4" deep in cold rolled steel and 10/32 taps. Between my first machine build and this one I have easily done several hundred successful holes. I would hate to be the Dynatorch assembly crew doing this day in and day out.

Its hard to find the high speed steel ones as they last the longest. The high carbon ones that everyone sells seem vey brittle to me.

The actual lifting magnets I bought were made in Italy. They are Tecnomagnete Maxx 500's. They are rated @ 1100lbs each but safety tested to hold 3300lbs. When I bought them I figured I would never load a sheet weighing more than a 4' x 8' 5/8" sheet (816lbs) on the table and with 2 magnets it would be easier to balance the load. I can tell you they sure make it a breeze to gently load sheets. When I bought these in 05 they were 1/2 what they sell for now. Do a search on Ebay for lifting magnet there a many different ones listed.

http://www.magsystems.co.uk/downloads/MaxX-Lifters.pdf

MJ,

The piano wire is a very sharp idea for a straight-edge!!!!

Your system makes my want to but me old Torchmate to sleep :)

Keep up the good work!


Tom

PlasmaGuy,

Here is a link to DT's retro fit page: http://www.dynatorch.com/BasicDrive.htm

I just finished (it is possible that they are never finished!) a DT build and am impressed with the motion. The THC shown is an older version. The new unit is slim and sealed nicely. It is a INA linear slide with the animatics servo on top.

Cheers
WSS

Thanks Plasma Guy. The piano wire works well. I hope to have the gantry installed with in the next week.

WSS, I was wondering who made the new torch slide assembly. I ordered one from Dynatorch on Thursday. I looked up INA and it appears it is from Germany. Do you intend to build a water table for your machine?


Only 29 more holes to go!

magma-joe,
Your gantry will be the straightest traveling gantry ever built here on the Zone. You also have a impressively clean shop. I start out with good intentions but lose the plot after a month or so (I'll post a pic in about six months). You only complain about first class once, when your doing it. The effort will show very soon!

I will build a water table right away. I will start it the first of Dec. I am setting up some on-line training with Gary at wittlock eng. this week. And decorating for Christmas after that! So, I am hoping to find the time to get started first of the month. I would like to post the drawing here and get some feedback of what you think. I will do a "level w/slats" design and I can always use narrow slats if I need to submerge later. If that makes sense.

Cheers!
WSS

Meant to ask about the THC slide, did you get the hold downs? They are important and work really well. I was able to square up the torches and slide accurately with them. They are like a mill hold down with a lip built in. I can take a picture of it tomorrow if you want to see them. You could build them in a snap if you needed.

WSS, thanks for the kind words. I hope Dynatorch included the hold downs with the torch, won't know for sure until UPS delivers on Wednesday. Dynatorch also said it is a 6" slide now instead of a 4". It appears that alot of improvements (like the torch slide) they have made to their machines come from them mounting the Hydefinition Plasma cutters on their Master series machines.

The Hydefinition plasma cutter torches are quite heavy and much larger than a standard plasma torch. That torch slide looks like the same one used on the $100,000 + plasma tables on the market. I'm sure with their new laser they have to have a very accurate torch slide.

I can not tell the difference between the standard series and the Master series machines when I look at the pictures on their website. Perhaps its the gearing? It says the Master series rapid travels @ 1500 inches per minute. Both have all steel gantries, steel Y carriage, and dual linear Y axis rails. Anyway I think its great that the improvments spill over to the standard series.

I am sure the addition of a water table will make a huge difference at a big savings over an air table. The air tables do work very well however it can become quite an elaborate set up when used with filter assembly.

My water table experience..........

On my table ( 3" x 8" retangular tube) I just welded 6 pieces of 3" channel as bottom cross beams.I then laid a 6 x 12 sheet of 11 gage inside the perimeter of the frame and welded in 4 - 8" high sides. My idea was to have a floating pan that I could remove in the future. Not thinking ahead I had alot of warping of the bottom sheet that occured when I welded the sides.

The warping became an issue when I laid the slat supports in the pan bottom. Since the whole weight of any material on the table would be sitting on the slat supports it was important that the supports be in direct contact with the 3" channel bottom cross beams.

Due to the warping of the pan bottom there were air gaps in some spots between the bottom cross beams and the pan bottom. This required shims between the bottom beams and the pan bottom and shims between the slat supports and pan bottom. It became quite a chore to level and shim the slat supports so the bottom cross beams could take all the weight of the material on the table in addition to all the weight of the water which was about 2100lbs as I recall. About 8lbs per gallon.

In addition, since I had to raise the height of the slat supports to accomodate the wavy bottom it also changed my calculated slat height. Once I had the slat supports all leveled and welded in the pan bottom, I measured to the finished elevation I wanted (1/2" below maximum water level) and had the slats sheared to that height. In my case the slats ended up about 3" high. After shearing my original 5" slats down to 3" it left me with a complete set of 2" slats left over. I had the same idea you had about changing slats to change material elevation. If I had to do it over again I would incorporate a system like some of the guys here on the zone to automaticly change water elevation with some sort of pressurized holding tank.

This all was somewhat of a PITA so take it into consideration when building your water table.

Update; The rails have made it to their new home on the out side of the frame and in a lowered position. The table seems like a football field compared to having the 2 rails sticking up on each side. Also, UPS delivered the new torch slide today. I hope to sit the new gantry on the table by Saturday.

Update; Got the rails lined up and the new gantry installed. The floating V wheels on the slave side are very smooth and work well compensating for the slight misalignment between the slave and master rails.

The adjusting bolts at each end of the rails made it a breeze to line them up. Just for extra stability I added a rail center support. The new aluminum gantry weighed 90lbs before adding any of the accessories like gear rack, linear rails. etc. I suspect it must weight close to 160lbs with all the accessories. I weighed the original Dynatorch gantry with out accessories and it came in about 50lbs.

Although in the picture the gantry looks somewhat high, it is the same height off the table as the original Dynatorch single motor drive. I included a picture of the Dynatorch drop side bracket for comparision.

Right on! You have certainly picked up speed now. I did not actually weigh our gantry but I am sure it is heavier than yours. I would guess stripped it weighs over 100lbs. If you have the new motor/gearbox group then you will have plenty of margin for speed and torque. Out of curiosity, what is the part # of the servos?

Will you have a chance to work on it over the week-end? It looks like an industrial piece of equipment that should work hard for you. You will have to change your name to Gepeto!

Nice work! I look forward to seeing the first stroll it takes around the football field.

WSS

WSS, I think your weight calculations of 100lbs for your stripped steel gantry are pretty close. Although my gantry is aluminum the weight started adding up with the 1/2" end plates and extra reinforcements I made for the dual drop side design. The 7' 3" x 12 aluminum channel I used started out weighing 51lbs. I do know alot of weight is added on with the addition of the 2 linear rails, gear rack and steel Y axis carriage.

I seriously considered buying the motor gear box combination that Dynatorch uses on their new machines like yours but I chose not to for a couple of reasons. Number one, availible funds are limited, and number 2, if my calculations are correct my original motor gear box combination (because of the 28 to 1 ratio) will yield about the same final out put torque that the newer version Dynatorch has.

Please correct me if I am wrong but I beleive final motor torque =
motor torque multiplied by gear box ratio minus any inefficencies?

The motor used on your new machine is a 2316DT or double torque which puts out 4.61 in lbs of continous torque. The gear box ratio is 10 to 1. So 10 x 4.61 = 46.1 in lbs of torque at the out put shaft of the gear box.

My Dynatorch which was built in 2005 came with 28 to 1 gear boxes and the 2315D motor which puts out 1.69 in lbs of continous torque. The 1.69 in lbs of torque is much less than the 4.61 in lbs the 2316DT puts out. But when multiplied by the gear box ratio 28 x 1.69 in lbs the result is 47.32 in lbs of continous torque at the out put shaft of the gear box.

I think the reason Dynatorch went to the higher torque motors was to increase speeds and decrease motor rpms. Do you know what the rapid traverse speed of your gantry is?

I have a job coming in 2 weeks so the push is on to finish soon. I still need to swap the control box and run the wire for the Dynascribe and Dash units.

MagmaJoe,

What is your opinion on the steel v. aluminum gantry? DT has gone to all steel gantries altogether? Y/N? I see merit to both versions. The extrusion and ease attaching items to it make alot of sense. But is very $$$ too.
Building a steel gantry and keeping it true and square will require some nice fixtures.

With the larger gantry and v track on the slave side your gantry should be more rigid?

To do it all over again would your order a machine with the dual drive X axis ?

Your system is looking great!

Tom

PlasmaGuy,

To my knowledge Dynatorch no longer offers the aluminum extrusion gantries.
Once again I think their move to steel gantries had alot to do with Dynatorch's move into the Hydefinition plasma market. The added rigidity was required for the extra weight of torch, cables and accessories like the Dynascribe.

The aluminum extrusion gantry worked fine for my conventional plasma and I have never heard of other Dynatorch owners complain about them. The ease of assembly of the aluminum gantry says alot. Early on I considered modifying mine but I needed an extra foot to make it work with my dual drop idea.

Dynatorch has incorporated the floating V wheels on the slave side of all their new machines. When I learned of this I thought I would use them on my upgrade. I have only rolled the gantry back and forth 10 or so times so my opinion is limited.

Even though the new gantry weighs more the rolling resistance seems much less and smoother than the cam followers on the old gantry. With my dual drop design I was also able to add the spring loaded idlers to the slave side which made it VERY rigid.

The V wheels are also somewhat self cleaning. I was always cleaning the cam followers on my old gantry. The current Dynatorch machines only use the idlers on the master side.

At the time I ordered my machine the dual motor drive was not available. If I had to do it over, YES I would order the dual X motor drives!

My table is self built but I also have V wheels on both sides of my long axis and movement is very smooth and when the drives are not engaged you can roll the gantry with a very light push. My cross axis is also on V wheels and again very smooth and light to move. I considered cam followers for a few seconds (grin).

Bill,

I have viewed your build thread several times. That is a very nice table you built and your skills are quite apparent. I do like the adjustable water level and gantry parking area features on your table.

When anyone is building a table for the first time they are never quite sure what works and what does'nt so its nice to hear from others who have first hand experience. Thanks for the feed back on the V wheels!