Well I've pretty much decided on a Super Mini Mill. I had the HFO rep out today and we talked about options and he had some good advice about the machine that I wouldn't have otherwise been aware of.

Here's my dilemma. If you go to the HAAS site and look at their demo machines for sale, they have a Super Mini listed for $54,687.50. Retail on it is $78,125. The discount is 30%. Some of the options listed on the site for this mill are a little confusing since some of the option codes have changed. The rep brought a spec sheet showing the machine with the current option codes. It has the following options:

15K-SMM
AUGER
16MB
ENET/HD
HSM
HFP-SMM
P-COOL
TTC-300
TTC
WIPS
MACRO
COORD
ACF

Even those codes are still a bit off since WIPS now comes with MACRO, COORD, and SOM. Being 30% off this seems like a nice deal. I got him to pull the details on the machine. It has 393 servo hours, 299 run time hours, 43 motion hours, and 40 spindle hours. It was built in February 2008. Also, he thinks that even though they list it as having a 15" screen that it may not since he doesn't think they started doing the 15" screens on the minis until September of 2008.

If I were going to configure one myself with only the options I wanted, it would have the following option codes.

15K-SMM
WIPS-R (includes MACRO, COORD, and SOM)
AUGER
HFP-SMM
P-COOL
16MB
HSM
IPS-V
RJH-C
ESW-1

So really all I'd be leaving out over the demo unit would be the hard drive/ethernet, the through-tool coolant, and the auxiliary coolant filter. That through tool coolant option is expensive, $6000. And the filter is another $1800. Ethernet/HD $2800.

So he put a quote together for a brand new machine with the options I listed above. Retail was $67,545. They'll give me a 20% discount and make it $54,036.

So, it's basically a wash. I'd be paying about the same price for the demo model with those extra options or a new one without those extra few options.

Which one to buy? Other than doing a lot of drilling, is the through-tool coolant that important? The hard drive really seems like a waste given the size of USB sticks these days. Any opinions?

Based on Geof's comments regarding the 15K spindle in my other post, I'm now considering this instead:

Super Mini Mill 2
HFP-SMM
AUGER
P-COOL
16MB
HSM
IPS-V
R-TAP (brochure says it's standard, haas site says it's an option)
RJH-C
WIPS-R
SMTC-24-UP

Is the HSM option beneficial without the 15K spindle?

Now you have jumped into a different ballpark.:)

Take away the IPS-V, WIPS-R, and probably the RJH-C and you are specifying my next machine. Order it, put down a deposit and then discover you have to cancel so I can pick it up a a discount.:D

I actually got lucky like that a couple of years ago which is why I got a 15k rpm VF2 for the price of a 10k.

I have looked at the Super 2 and I think it is probably good value for money, especially the 24 place side mount changer option.


I think the HSM can be useful with the 10k spindle. I know it is supposed to be applicable to contouring with abrupt corners but my guys reckon it smooths out the machine motion during engraving and when we do really strange tool paths for chamfering internal hole intersections with a lollipop cutter.

Ok, the RJH-C is a novelty, but I want it. I've heard IPS-V isn't all that useful on a mill but it now includes the dxf import capability which might be useful. No WIPS-R? Really? This seems like an incredibly useful option. Why not? It includes the SOM, COORD, and MACRO options. Those three options alone are $4300 and the WIPS-R is $5000.

Ok, the RJH-C is a novelty, but I want it. I've heard IPS-V isn't all that useful on a mill but it now includes the dxf import capability which might be useful. No WIPS-R? Really? This seems like an incredibly useful option. Why not? It includes the SOM, COORD, and MACRO options. Those three options alone are $4300 and the WIPS-R is $5000.

RJH Remote Jog Handle, I had forgotten what it stood for; how short are your arms?

One reason I would not get the probing is that on our machines we do not have space on the table for the probe stuff. Also we don't really need it because the machines do production with calibrated fixtures; we know where everything is and in many programs work zeroes are entered from the program.

Not that short! Like I said, novelty. That makes sense on the probe. For me, I think it would be pretty useful.

If space is not an issue, maybe you can look into a VF1. It will give you an extra 6" of Z travel and I think the Mini/SMini series has weldment bases vs cast iron bases for VFs. It's been a few years, but I too looked at a Mini vs a VF and decided that VF comes with more standard features that are optional on the Mini and if you add up all the VF standard options the price of a mini is comparable to a VF. . . but it's been a few years so I don't know if that is still true.

I think the Haas probe package are great and better than what other manufactures are offering. I even ordered it on a SR-100 that doesn't list it as an option. It cost a little more for a ISO30 holder and to field install it, but it's still worth the price.

HSM is an option I did order but wonders about. The specs on the controller is not as transparent as the mechanical specs. The HSM description of today is the same as it was back in 06'. However, I would imagine a current controller without HSM will probably perform better than a 10 year old machine with HSM. Based on what I read, I know there is at least one generation controller difference between my 06' machine and today's machine. I also wonder how Haas can compete technologically with dedicated control manufacturer like Fanuc & Siemens but I haven't read any complains about Haas controller being inferior in any way. So, I will just keep on enjoying Haas ingenuity.

I don't have through coolant but I remember people mentioning TSC being absolutely necessary in production environment. . . . luckily my machine sits idle most of the time so I don't have to regret not having TSC.

I did order the Ethernet/HD along with 16MB option back in 06' when the alternative was either floppy or RS232. It wasn't cheap but it made file transfer and management a lot easier. However, I skipped both options on the SR-100 because I think with USB being standard it's hard to justify paying that much money for Ethernet/HD and the extra 16MB option.

Actually space is a huge issue for me. I will have to tear down a wall to get it in. I was really going back and forth between the super and super 2 just because of the additional 7 inches in depth and 9 inches in width.

RJH Remote Jog Handle, I had forgotten what it stood for; how short are your arms?



Okay I'm guilty of having short arms. I figure I'm always touching the probe off either parts of fixture to find the origin and the probe has to back off ~ .4" from the surface. With SR-100's 4'x8' work surface I may need that that remote jog handle . . . . . How do you do it on your GR?

First I'm not a machinist.

We have a TM-2 for protos. It has the probe. I have only made about 10 different parts so far. Let me say this:

I don't know how a modern shop gets by without a probe.

Geof seems a bit different that he only produces his products.

If I were to learn how to program our machine with the probe and have it probe every part and spit out a sheet with the measured dimensions it would be very valuable.... So far none of our current vendors have that in their manufacturing process.

Spend the money on the probe.....its part of manufacturing technology.

Tim

. . . . . How do you do it on your GR?

What! have you never heard of the remote jog handle option? We got one on our GR, and pcool, and HSM, and HD & ethernet, and HSM, and Macros and a whole bunch of things that took the base price of around $90k all the way up to almost $140k.

Then the projects that I was going to do on the GR fell through and I had a very heavy paperweight sitting out in the shop.:o

Fortunately another product line started to grow and now the GR has more than recouped its purchase price.

What! have you never heard of the remote jog handle option? We got one on our GR, and pcool, and HSM, and HD & ethernet, and HSM, and Macros and a whole bunch of things that took the base price of around $90k all the way up to almost $140k.

Then the projects that I was going to do on the GR fell through and I had a very heavy paperweight sitting out in the shop.:o

Fortunately another product line started to grow and now the GR has more than recouped its purchase price.

Geof-

What do you make? Website?

Tim

....Geof seems a bit different that he only produces his products....Tim


Geof is also a stubborn old cuss.:D


My attitude to probes is the same as to CAM; I am going to sling off at it ntil the time comes that my business can benefit from it and then I will be converted.

But I do honestly think you should learn how to do things without a probe so that when you destroy yours just starting a rush job on a Friday you can keep working through the weekend without it.

Geof is also a stubborn old cuss.:D


My attitude to probes is the same as to CAM; I am going to sling off at it ntil the time comes that my business can benefit from it and then I will be converted.

But I do honestly think you should learn how to do things without a probe so that when you destroy yours just starting a rush job on a Friday you can keep working through the weekend without it.


I agree with you....

But you are in a different game than me. You are production.....I am prototypes.

I am an engineer....not a trained expert at CNC programming....

...not a trained expert at CNC programming....

I am hardly a trained expert.:D

I just fumble my way through.

Actually these days I do prototypes and fixture design and it is possible sometimes a probe could be useful but my home shop machine has two Kurt vises and a HRT210 permanently mounted; there just ain't no room. Also it doesn't matter much if I take 2 or 3 minutes to put in a few offsets rather than 1 or 2 because nobody monitors my time.

Geof is also a stubborn old cuss.:D


My attitude to probes is the same as to CAM; I am going to sling off at it ntil the time comes that my business can benefit from it and then I will be converted.

But I do honestly think you should learn how to do things without a probe so that when you destroy yours just starting a rush job on a Friday you can keep working through the weekend without it.

You really should give probing a try. If you order the machine with macro you're already getting a discount on the probe.

I'm a beginner so probe is just for offsets and yes I've heard of the sliding paper routine to offsets but that still did't stop me from frantically search all over the place for odd size battery at 10pm. Just think of the possibilities you can have with probe and you can stick it to the CAM crowd even more :)

Actually space is a huge issue for me. I will have to tear down a wall to get it in. I was really going back and forth between the super and super 2 just because of the additional 7 inches in depth and 9 inches in width.


Maybe you can email Haas_Apps directly with some of your questions, especially on the less common options. Sometimes I think application engineers are better at answering product questions than sales people.

If I didn't have the space I have right now I'll go with a Mini/SMini as well.

.....and you can stick it to the CAM crowd even more :)

Can't do that anymore; the company bought Mastercam, X10 is it, a few months ago. I will never bother learning how to use it but the company has several employees who do. In Travis' other thread I mentioned the purpose we bought it for; developing weird toolpaths to chamfer internal hole intersections using a lollipop cutter. That application alone will recoup the cost in six months in time saved; not to mention realing pleasing my guys who do not have to get sore wrists doing it by hand.

I think I've gotten most of my questions answered. I was looking more for opinions here. The biggest issue I've had with Haas so far is getting accurate dimensions from them. They even released brand new drawings for the MM and MM2 that were done on July 6. Even these aren't accurate.

I think I've gotten most of my questions answered. I was looking more for opinions here. The biggest issue I've had with Haas so far is getting accurate dimensions from them. They even released brand new drawings for the MM and MM2 that were done on July 6. Even these aren't accurate.

Do you mean dimensions for how big the hole you chop in your wall needs to be?

You can fit a Super Mini with the Z axis lift under 96" by unclamping the guide tube for all the cables going to the top of the spindle; the head has to be down as low as possible which is not how it ships from the factory, but you could connect power temporarily to jog it down.

For width you need to allow about 62".

I was looking more for opinions here.
OK, (drum roll): for that much cabbage ($60-70K), why are you limiting yourself to a Minimill when you could just buy a VF-2 with a 10K spindle? If what you need it for will absolutely fit in the Mini's envelope, great. If you're not sure, you can't make the machine bigger tomorrow.

OK, (drum roll): ....just buy a VF-2 with a 10K spindle?.....

And a chainsaw to cut a really big hole in the wall.:)

And a chainsaw to cut a really big hole in the wall.:)
I didn't see where he posted what the opening was going to be, but (as posted a dozen times before) my VF-2 fit through a 7 foot high, 8 foot wide door. It took the same consideration: removing the Z-axis motor and laying the cable guide on its side.

If it's going into a living room, I suppose he could get Minimill through a conventional double-front door, so it does have its advantages. :D

Do you mean dimensions for how big the hole you chop in your wall needs to be?

For width you need to allow about 62".

Yep, as said before, I'm extremely limited on space. And Geof, you're spot on about that hole. :) I have a door opening that's 70" wide by 95" tall to get it through. Only 62" in width? The dimensions drawing show the depth of the machine (width of door opening I'd need) are considerably larger. And when I say tight on space, I mean tight on space! They want 3' of space behind the machine for access to the panel. I just don't have it. I'll be having a company rebuild the wall it goes up against with a large door in the wall so that it can be opened and the machine panel accessed from the other side of the wall.

Yep, as said before, I'm extremely limited on space. And Geof, you're spot on about that hole. :) I have a door opening that's 70" wide by 95" tall to get it through. Only 62" in width? The dimensions drawing show the depth of the machine (width of door opening I'd need) are considerably larger. And when I say tight on space, I mean tight on space! They want 3' of space behind the machine for access to the panel. I just don't have it. I'll be having a company rebuild the wall it goes up against with a large door in the wall so that it can be opened and the machine panel accessed from the other side of the wall.

If its anything like my tm-2 on the back I would just remove the hinges to make it more accessible back there.

TIm

Yep, that's what they suggested. Take the door off the back of the machine, but it right up against the wall, and put a custom door in the wall itself that can be opened to access it from the other side.

For my home workshop machine that was my solution, a big door in the wall behind the machine. At the business we just have a 5000lb pallet jack and when access is needed to the control cabinet we pull the machines forward.

For my home workshop machine that was my solution, a big door in the wall behind the machine. At the business we just have a 5000lb pallet jack and when access is needed to the control cabinet we pull the machines forward.

Do you have to worry about re-leveling the machine after every move?

Do you have to worry about re-leveling the machine after every move?

Not the MiniMills, and probably not the MiniMill 2.

These machines have very small footprints and the castings for the column and base are bolted onto a welded box that is the coolant tank. They are inherently so stiff even if you have them sitting only on two opposite corners you will not have detectable distortion on the three axes. The only thing that it is necessary to do is make sure the levelling screws are carrying the same load left to right. Just tweak them with a wrench to see if they need about the same torwue to move them. Note I say left to righ is equal; the front screws carry less weight than the rear so they always have different torque.

This does not apply the the VF machines with six levelling screws that must be levelled correctly.

Geof, do you have a MM2 or SMM2 or just the original series?

Just the original series, MiniMills, SuperMiniMills and SuperMiniMills with the Z axis extension.

I looked at the MM2 last year at Westec because I was planning some machine purchases, but I think at that time they only had the MM2 not the SMM2 so I got the original series. It is very likely that the next one will be a SMM2 mostly to get the 24 place side mount toolchanger.

OK, I finally tooked the plunge and signed the order on a Super Mini Mill 2. Unfortunately due to unforseen circumstances, I had to scale it back considerably from what I originally wanted. I went with the following options:
WIPS-R
AUGER
HFP-SMM
PCOOL
16MB

It really hurt not to get the side mount tool changer but it just didn't end up in the budget.

RJH Remote Jog Handle, I had forgotten what it stood for; how short are your arms?

One reason I would not get the probing is that on our machines we do not have space on the table for the probe stuff. Also we don't really need it because the machines do production with calibrated fixtures; we know where everything is and in many programs work zeroes are entered from the program.

Geof,

When you talk about the probe stuff, do you mean the wireless tool setter?

I am a newbie hobbyist but I have a question. I have the Renishaw Wireless probe that I use in one of cat 40 holders. I also have the Renshaw Wireless tool setter this is mounted to my TM-1P table along with 3 Kurt D688 vises. Could you accurately!!!! place the wireless tool setter on some type of a quick release fixture plate with dowel pins where you could use it when you need to set tools and remove the fixture plate when tool setting is not needed? If this could be done it might make it more appealing to the crowded table guys. I am sure that there are many things about fixturing that I don't know or understand that would not allow this approach.

Just a thought but would like to get some input from you guys that do CNC machining for a living.

Thanks in advance for your thoughts.

John

Geof,

When you talk about the probe stuff, do you mean the wireless tool setter?.....

John

I guess I do.

Your idea of having a demountable unit could work but then the time taken in mounting and demounting when added to the time it takes to use the tool setter could make it as long or longer than doing things by hand.

Actually if you had something similar to the tool setter on the lathes, this is an arm that swings the sensor down in front of the chuck. I think it would be quite feasible to have the toolsetter mounted on something that swung to one side when it was not in use.

I don't think you are going to convert me though; I am steadily working on reducing how much stuff I do for the business. I took a five week break this summer when my brother visited and we did some cruising and played golf. I estimate I need another three months to wrap up the projects I have on the go for the business and then I will only be using the home shop for fun. The people running the business may choose to get involved with tool setters but that will be their decision not mine.

First I'm not a machinist.

We have a TM-2 for protos. It has the probe. I have only made about 10 different parts so far. Let me say this:

I don't know how a modern shop gets by without a probe.

Geof seems a bit different that he only produces his products.

If I were to learn how to program our machine with the probe and have it probe every part and spit out a sheet with the measured dimensions it would be very valuable.... So far none of our current vendors have that in their manufacturing process.

Spend the money on the probe.....its part of manufacturing technology.

Tim

Thats very dangerous. the probe is only as good as the machine table is. if you did aerospace or high tolerance work for your customers using the probe on a machine to check your parts would be highly unacceptable.

There isn't a cnc machine out there that would replace an inspection dept.

to be honest it would be like using a pair of calipers, instead of a super mic. or cmm.


The probe comes in useful for quick runs and major tool changes and thats pretty much about it, its basically a 5k toy.

for example if I get a part in I still have in indicate the vice in, I still have to cut the jaws for the vise. when your cutting jaws for a job you automatically know were the part zero is just by simple math. if you don't you have no business running a machine.

for round parts and castings just mounting them to the table then yeah a probe works very good. but unless your running castings and round parts right off the table or sub-plate its not really needed.

rework the probe is nice also.

I have a fadal with out a probe and a haas with a probe, I had ONE job for the fadal that a probe would have been nice, wish I had it so much I contacted renishaw about a retrofit.
then after the job was done I started doing some serious thinking, I really didn't need it.

however tools settings are nice I can set up my fadal off sets on all 21 tools in about5-10 mins easy. nice thing about the haas i can set up 24 tools in about 1 mins and walk away while its doing it.

someone said it a few posts ago when talking about the automation in todays world. machine tool builders made it pretty easy for anyone to set up and run a machine, however the people running and setting up the machines have absolutely NO clue what they are doing, we are dumbing people down.


I will say this, if I buy another new machine yes I will order it with the probe, for a few simple reasons. it will resale better and if i do get a casting job or some odd shaped job I can set it up pretty quick

Thats very dangerous. the probe is only as good as the machine table is. if you did aerospace or high tolerance work for your customers using the probe on a machine to check your parts would be highly unacceptable.






Why would it be unacceptable? If you have a master mounted on the table and check that with the probe and then check the part and have it dump the numbers off of both parts into an inspection sheet. If the master is correct why would the part be off?

someone said it a few posts ago when talking about the automation in todays world. machine tool builders made it pretty easy for anyone to set up and run a machine, however the people running and setting up the machines have absolutely NO clue what they are doing, we are dumbing people down.



If the technology is there you might as well use it. How come you are not making parts with a manual bridgeport anymore? You got dummed down to using a CNC.

Tim

I don't think you are going to convert me though; I am steadily working on reducing how much stuff I do for the business. I took a five week break this summer when my brother visited and we did some cruising and played golf. I estimate I need another three months to wrap up the projects I have on the go for the business and then I will only be using the home shop for fun. The people running the business may choose to get involved with tool setters but that will be their decision not mine.


If you are talking retirement I can highly recommend it. I have been retired since 2000 and having the time of my life doing what I want for whom I want and when I want.

Go for it.

John

Why would it be unacceptable? If you have a master mounted on the table and check that with the probe and then check the part and have it dump the numbers off of both parts into an inspection sheet. If the master is correct why would the part be off?

Ball screws / ways and gibbs are the reason why, at any position you can have error then you have repeat ability, you dont take a micrometer and use it as a clamp then check a part with it.
machines have wear surfaces and they do wear under heavy load and the different materials you cut, not to mention the slop that a ball screw will give after a why.
CMMS are run off of air bearings, there is less friction and there not used as a cuttin tool, which will cause wear points.

put a .00005 indicator on your machine and push the table and the head you will see the needle move, even on a new machine. however under a load the machine will hold a tol.

While haas does cut a good circle its not perfect interpilation.



If the technology is there you might as well use it. How come you are not making parts with a manual bridgeport anymore? You got dummed down to using a CNC.

Tim

dont be so sure, I use mine every day for making parts and drilling, every piece of equipment has its usage.

John;

Yes retirement, years ago I said I never would but now I have gone and done it.:cheers:

The parts I like are the two upcoming river cruises in Europe later this year and several trips planned for next year.