I am trying to resolve some safety concerns I have regarding the use of eye protection in a machine shop. The shop has 8 Haas VF2 SS VMC machines, a Haas TM-2 (not enclosed), and two Mori-Seiki NH6000 HMC's with a cell system.

Company management has no eye protection policy in place, and insists none is necessary as the machines are enclosed and there is no risk of eye injury. They do say they require eye protection while setting up the machines, but only at that time. Some of the parts I have programmed use a 2” 4-flute face mill at 12,000 RPM & 400 IPM, depth of cut .125” in Aluminum. With this tool running, the inside of the machine sounds like a machine gun is at work. Chips manage to find openings in the machine enclosure and pelt the operators.

Can anyone offer any opinions as to the validity fo the management position that no eye protection is needed?

Thanks!

Completely invalid in my humble opinion as a company owner and manager. The TL2 is not enclosed so eye protection is essential here. You present another example why eye protection is needed all the time and that is even with enclosed machines some chips still escape. Are air guns used for blowing off chips when reloading machines, this makes eye protection essential. Even for people not operating machines eye protection is a good idea because they can walk past a machine that is open or an operator blowing off something. Just coolant spray can be dangerous because it is very irritating and distracting if it splashes in a person's eyes.

I cannot understand a management attitude that says eye protection is not necessary. Normally in my experience it is the other way around with the workers not wanting to wear eye protection.

Geof,

Thanks for the response.

Yes, air guns are used to blow off the parts, as well as the fixturing in the machines.

I find it hard to believe that an operator would alawys remember to put on eye protection only at the times that management has decided it is required, and not forget it.

You make a very valid point about walking by a machine and risking an eye injury.

All of the machine operators in the shop have been hired off of the street, none of them had any shop experience prior to this job. There is no safety training, they are hired and put right on a machine. In my opinion, it is unlikely that these operators have any idea of the dangers.

....All of the machine operators in the shop have been hired off of the street, none of them had any shop experience prior to this job. There is no safety training, they are hired and put right on a machine. In my opinion, it is unlikely that these operators have any idea of the dangers.

This is irresponsible, frustrating and annoying. Companies cut corners and do this then when the a serious injury happens and there is an enquiry the big headlines go up about employers putting their workers at risk and even more onerous safety legislation is imposed on the responsible employers. Meanwhile the irresponsible ones quietly close up shop and open somewhere else under a different name.

Maybe I exaggerate, but not much.

As Canadian business owners, this would land Geof or myself in jail really fast. Not to mention fines that can accumulate into millions of dollars.
I find it hard to believe that your government is that much different.

On the other hand I can not watch shows such as "Dirty Jobs", OCC, or similar shows and not see MANY, MANY "Canadian type" safety infractions. Some of them VERY serious by our standards.

You present another example why eye protection is needed all the time and that is even with enclosed machines some chips still escape.

With management believing that a fully enclosed machine presents no eye hazards, any suggestions on how to argue that point?

I am stumped, there must be something in OSHA regs although I hate to get inspectors involved because they can create other problems.

With management believing that a fully enclosed machine presents no eye hazards, any suggestions on how to argue that point?

Use their logic against them. It's really simple, cost of safety glasses $10.00, cost for eye injury and or lawsuit and lost productivity $1000's. Eye injuries can happen with enclosures, I have seen parts launched at high velocity and penetrate the plastic on machine doors. Air guns can blow a chip right thru an eye. Safety practices cost almost nothing to implement, I our shop you comply with the established safety practices or you get written up, get written up 3 times and you are terminated. Makes for a good incentive.

I don't have a commercial shop, just a home shop. But, anyone who comes to visit is given a pair of safety glasses if they don't have their own. If they don't want to wear them, they are welcome wear a face shield or to exit my shop.

I also do a lot of work at my friends shop. He has a Haas mill and lathe, as well as a lot of other machines. He rule is that if you enter the shop, you are wearing safety glasses or you are welcome to wait in the office area.

Just makes sense to me. Glasses are replacable for cheap, eye's aren't.

Wade

I believe OSHA may have other thoughts on that subject. I would remind or suggest they contact OSHA and find out what the current fines are for non-compliance. I believe they may even shut them down for not supplying safety glasses and if an injury occures...well that could also shut them down, cost hundreds of thousands of dollars, and possibly put some or all of management/owners in jail.(nuts)
They also might want to check out www.osha.gov (chair) Just a thought...
The normal other operations in the shop beyond enclosed and door safety switches on the CNC's will still demand the need for safety classes. The only time glasses should not be a requirement is when nothing is running.
Steve

I can't believe you need to force some people to wear eye protection these days. I mean, for god's sake, you only get 2 chances with your eyes. The only one who is going to benefit is yourself! It scares the hell out of me, personally, the thought of having no sight. Think of how your life would change!

Cost of safety glasses at the local welding shop...$4.50

Cost of my good vision...Priceless

The simple answer is.....
If there were to be an eye injury that required a trip to the hospital, would the insurance company pay happily or would your rates go up?

Can't tell you how many times I've gone into a big factory and you put on glasses at the door. Period. An accident as stupid as the spring in a ball point pen hitting someone in the eye results in a half a ream of paper being printed.

Practical or not, common sense or not....plenty machine guards or not....the ultimate sad statement of our times:

WWIS. (What Would Insurance Say)

.....and then there's lawsuits and liability.

you can as a employee wear them anyways.. the company might have a silly policy but it doenst mean you have to risk your eyes..

I hate safety glasses. I will not wear them unless I am running a manual machine, or a grinder.

I dont wear them when I mow the lawn or have sex. I also dont wear a helmet in the car, nor does my car have a roll cage. I am a risk taker.

Thanks for your interest & responses.

OSHA did an inspection of the shop several months ago. They checked in at the front desk, and it was 20 minutes, according to the investigator, before he actually got to the shop. Everyone had safety glasses on.

The OSHA investigator said it is up to the company to determine if a machine poses any injury risk, and implement a corresponding safety program.

I agree that as an individual the employees can choose to wear glasses, however so far as I know none of the operators in this shop have previous shop background. In short, they have no clue of the risk they are taking.

I suppose that the machines are safe to be around when the doors are closed, but what if someone blowing off their parts sends a chip sailing across the room into some else's eye? Even picking chips out of a hole can send a small piece flying, because chips are like little springs. What if an airline blows apart and raises a helluva ruckus blowing chips off the top of machine enclosures, or from wherever? What if the end of your deburring tool shatters and sends a fragment into an eye? What if someone blows filing dust into their own face and eyes?

You might be okay in a room full of machines all by yourself, but when you've got a bunch of other operators doing god knows what, you need eye protection.

The OSHA reg that covers this is the "general duty" principle, stated in the general industry CFR if I remember correctly.

Essentially if there is a hazard known, but not covered in the CFR, then the company is responsible for mitigating it. So even if there were not specific provisions for eye protection (PPE) the responsibility is on the company.

So, most companies assume a work area to need eye protection, and enforce glass wearing at all times by all personel. Like others have said, when there is an injury, then the company will be in hot water, because they are not following what other companies deem reasonable.

The "We don't need it because..." is exactly what got Value Jet in trouble.

If the company wants no glasses with machines closed, they'd best get that approved by OSHA in their area... and in writing on site. Good luck with that.

Employers who point to a supposed lack of specifics in the OSHA regs are deliberately avoiding the issue. I'm guessing the real reason for the lack of a safety glasses policy is that you have one or more persons at the top who don't like wearing safety glasses.

I think you hit the nail on the head, but that still doesn't "forbid" any sensible person from protecting him/her self! Any of us that have been in a shop knows how Murphy will direct all kinds of flying objects!

To the OP, if the shop has a "no eye protection needed" policy and doesn't supply some, get your own and wear them faithfully. Set the example for others!

I visit a lot of shops in the job I have now and several past jobs. I visit machine shops. Therefore, I always walk in with a pair of safety glasses in my hand whether I know I'm going into the shop or not, just in case I do.

About 1/3 of the shops I visit, mostly smaller ones, there will be people walking around without them. Some shops, none to be seen but that's rare. I wear mine regardless because just as I feel virtually nekkid riding my motorbike without a full coverage helmet, I feel safer with safety glasses on in any shop environment. Sometimes I may look like a geek, but I remain a TWO-EYED geek. I also feel that by wearing them even when not asked of me, I'm showing respect for the shop owner's liability risk.

I'd rather wear them and never need them than not wear them and wish I had.

For a week, make a personal survey without anyone else knowing lest they change their practices and mark the # of times you see a machine running with doors closed, vs open. I run open all the time to see better. I really only close the door when the coolant comes on or I am facemilling. It's funny. Usually the company mandates more safety than some guys want.

A simple phone call to your insurance carrier (workers comp) will straighten managment right up. They will probably tell you that any time some one walks out of the office into the shop, THEY WILL WEAR EYE PROTECTION. There is nothing to argue about the "enclosed machines", they reside in a shop environment, and safty glasses are to be worn in the shop. What kind of management is running this place?
Our policy is, in the shop, you wear eye protection.

It’s funny how the government agencies write the laws sometimes. The essences of the written laws from what I’ve seen, are vague with generalities, and push the burden back upon the business owner as to what is appropriate safety and what is not. Then, if an accident occurs and an owner’s policy is found wanting, he is in a great deal of trouble and carries the full blame for someone getting hurt. The best policy is to require glasses all around in designated areas of risk and enforce it.
I also found the same vagueness in applying Hazardous Waste storage, designation and disposal. The law says you must control you hazardous waste and it’s disposable. They tell you how to control it, the amounts you can have, for how long you store it, and even how to determine its risk level. What they DON”T tell you in specific terms, is what is defined as a hazardous waste! That, they say is best determined by you the generator, you are the expert, and if you’re wrong…well it can be very bad for you.
What I’m saying is that the laws are written to completely protect the governing agency responsible from taking any of the blame and lays the burden and all the expense on you and I to prove you disposed of, handled, and indentified all the chemicals within your control right down to the hand soap and felt writing pins you use. That is, my friend, not a joke. Does your company have a MSDS for a magic marker? We do, after having it pointed out that we needed one during an audit.:eek:
Steve

http://www.manufacturing.net/News-Michigan-Fines-Auto-Parts-Maker-102K-012609.aspx?menuid=

Dear Terabithia,

My humble guess is that your employer is being a bit reckless. I cannot imagine that any insurance inspector would take such a laid-back approach. Anyway, if you do not want to fight a war on a matter of principle, the simple answer is to take responsibility for your own eyes, and invest $10 of your own hard earned cash in some safety glasses. They are your eyes, after all. Encourage your fellow workers to do the same.

Best wishes,

Martin

Can anyone offer any opinions as to the validity fo the management position that no eye protection is needed?



I can tell you how fun it is to dig steel out of your eyeball. For 2 days, I thought I had welding flash, but even the worst I've ever had welding flash, it only lasted 1 day, so I decided to bear the pain and take a second look tonight.

After sitting in there for 2 days, it was plainley obvious that there was a chip burried right over my iris. I was lucky this time, I managed to remove it with a Q-tip. But now, I basically have a hole in my eye and if things aren't looking 100% better by 10am, I'll be at the doctor. Granted everything already feels A LOT better, it would be easy for the simplist infection to get into my eye and it would be down hill from there.

The last time this happened, I had to goto the doctor, he gave me numbing eye drops, which worked excellent by the way, and then dug out the metal with some kind of vibrating needle. I didn't feel a thing, until I got home, then I would have sworn he used an axe, I was out of commision for the rest of that day.

Just wear your damn saftey glasses, this isn't worth it! Out of all the mistakes I've ever made, I would hate to lose an eye over something so petty, and I'm self employed, so there is nobody responsible for me. I make anyone visiting or walking around my shop wear saftey glasses at all times, I guess I need to make that rule apply to myself also. FML :(

MC

Dear mc-motorsports,

Welding flash, or "arc eye" as they call it hereabouts. Hurts like hell. It feels like some evil bugger has decided to line the inside of your eyelids with 36 grit abrasive.

I had a dose of it just by hanging about in a welding shop for a few hours. I never looked directly at any of the arcs, just picked up the damage by being there. At the end of the day, I really thought I couldn't drive the sixty miles home, but the helpful guys just said I should overdose on 6 aspirin, and that will get you home. It worked.

I drove back to London and went straight to an eye hospital . My eyes hurt like crazy for 36 hours, but I escaped without lasting damage. You can lose a few fingers on rotating machinery, and your life probably will not be too difficult. Lose a couple of eyes, and the whole world is going to change.

Look after them, people..

Best wishes,

Martin

You know, it's weird, some people can just be near a welder and pick up a case of flash or arc eye, usually people with lighter colored eyes.

One time I was just being completely ignorant, MIG welding a car trailer outside on a really sunny day, if you've ever welded out side on a sunny day, you know how easy it is to look at the arc, doesn't really bother you, maybe because your pupils are already diolated. Anyway, I woke up that night with the worst case of welding flash ever, every time I opened my eyes, tears would POUR out of my eyes and nose like a faucet. It was something that you would just have to see, I wished I could have video taped that, looked like a horror movie.

The next morning, I was fine, felt like I had sand in my eyes, but it was no big deal, back to work as usual.

Right now, my eye is bloodshot and very sore from the piece of steel that was buried in it, but it's ok, atleast it's not swelled shut like it was the previous 2 days.

I'll be a little more cautious and saftey minded in the future.

MC

MC; consider yourself thoroughly kicked around those parts where I suspect your brain might be located.:)

I have worn glasses all my life and all my work glasses are spattered with weld. I am much happier having to buy new glasses occasionally new eyeballs are a bit difficult to come by.

You know, it's weird, some people can just be near a welder and pick up a case of flash or arc eye, usually people with lighter colored eyes.



MC

Dear mc-motorsports,

Errgh sorry dude... That is a crap theory, IMVVHO ...My eyes are dark green to brown. It still hurt like hell.

Respect anyway..

Best wishes,

Martin

Speaking as someone who (as a few here may already know), works with about 250-300+ Blind, Legally Blind and even Deaf/Blind people every day in a machine shop manufacturing environment. I can attest that even they are required to wear eye protection on the shop floor running any machine. There is no excuse for such a lacks employee policy that would place one's eye sight or eye injury at the shear risk of thickheaded roulette.

I have yet to find one of these fine folks that have been partially blinded by their own ignorance to safety in the workplace…..One near incident shouldn’t become that much a gambled learning curve from the CEO to the deburr bench.:eek:

DC

With management believing that a fully enclosed machine presents no eye hazards, any suggestions on how to argue that point?

Tell management to read the warning labels that come on the Machines, Even the enclosed CNC's have them stating that Ear and Eye protection is needed at all times. We have a TL2 and it is no different than running a conventional lathe, as a matter of fact it is more hazardess due to the CNC controller running things. Wear the glasses.

It’s funny how the government agencies write the laws sometimes. The essences of the written laws from what I’ve seen, are vague with generalities, and push the burden back upon the business owner as to what is appropriate safety and what is not.
Steve

You are right, Steve. However, there is a good reason.

OSHA takes a proactive approach only when industry fails to address a problem. Two examples are trench cave-ins and brown lung disease in the cotton industry. OSHA's involvement in both cases were commendable.

OSHA prefers to let industry police itself. Industry standards for eye protection are well known and thus it is unnecessary for OSHA to spell them out.

The presence of hand or power tools anywhere in the shop dictates that all persons in the shop wear eye protection. This is the standard. It applies at all times, not just when someone is using such tools.

I've yet to see a company that was lax on safety glasses that wasn't careless about safety in general.