I'm trying to partner with a shop that has Camworks and willing to work with me to develop a quick easy way to prototype parts.

We receive a lot of work at my company that requires machining. In the past, I've worked with many shops but there is much wasted effort because I need to communicate what needs to be done and basically through away my CAM results.

Ultimately, I'd like to find a shop that has a large standardized toolset and a developed TechDB that we can both install. I can then draw the parts and set up the CAMworks features and how I like to machine them/tools involved.

I can then just send this file to the shop who would just post and run the job without having someone reinvent the wheel each time.

Alternatively, I'd like to work with someone savy with CNC and just send them the GCode to be run + setups or I can help train/setup a Camworks system inexchange for machining time.

Please send me a PM and we can discuss further.

Wow. I'm interested to see who would risk their machines on someone else's code.
Since you, evidently, are very knowledgable in machining, you could just cut out the middleman and get your own machines?

Getting our own machines requires a place to put them and someone to operate it/clean up chips. Like making your own pcbs, some things are best farmed out.

Running the g-code blind is somewhat risky I suppose but by sending them the Camworks file, the simulation can be run and with a shared TechDB, the virtual machine shop becomes much more of a reality.

I understand your hopes. Maybe someday soon it will reach that stage (it will eventually).

The problem now is that you are asking someone to risk his machines based on a simulation.
I use CamWorks and really like it. The simulation has shown me when I was cutting too much or not enough. It has saved me several times.

It does not, however, tell me when my part is being held too weakly or I'm taking too deep a depth of cut for the diameter of the tool. It does not show chatter, etc...
If you are having a person, who is not a machinist or at least an engineer experienced in machining, program in CamWorks, you may be getting a false impression of the capabilities of the Cam system (any Cam system).

But maybe you are or have that person programming. Unfortunately, everybody has different ideas of speeds, feeds, etc... and methods of work holding.
I submit that this is might be a wild goose chase.

I agree you need someone that needs to know what he is doing. I'm an engineer and an expert at it so that is not the problem here.

The depth of cut and feeds and speeds are all set in the TechDB. If you both are using the same techdb and it is set up properly, there shouldn't be that many problems. Setting up the TechDB probably isn't an easy process and I doubt most machinists can do it without help.

I encountered way too many engineers that want to be machinists and way too many machinists that want to be engineers and think it's best if everyone does what they are good at.

In CAMworks, you can set the holding avoidance boundaries and set up the features with the depths of cuts/speeds for all materials in the Feeds and Speeds library.

If the machinist doesn't like the feeds/speeds he can adjust them in the operation menu easily. Then again, he can just adjust the feed/spindle speed directly from the machine during runtime if it is also a concern.

The point is to speed up the process. I know when I designed the part that a certain radius is supposed to be cut with a specific leadin and specific end mill so rather than explaining that, I can just put it in the CAM file.

Also 99% of the time I drew up a part in hopes of just giving a solidworks file to a machinist, he always wants me to detail the drawing with all the dimensions/radius. That's not a problem when the part is a bunch of holes but if it is a several hundred splines, then it becomes a time problem. I'd much rather specify the CAM file, get the part back, laserscan into Rapidform XOS and perform the quality check automatically.

If you set it up properly, the virtual machine shop can be set up efficiently today with current tools.

Rather than go into the points that I disagree with you (pointless), I will just wish you good luck (Not sarcastic).

I agree you need someone that needs to know what he is doing. I'm an engineer and an expert at it so that is not the problem here.
< snip >
I encountered way too many engineers that want to be machinists and way too many machinists that want to be engineers and think it's best if everyone does what they are good at.
Your words, not anybody else's. :) Build a solid model. Do a basic 2D drawing to communicate any special inspection requirements or design aspects. Turn it over to somebody else. There is no way that I would run somebody else's code. There is no way I would suggest that somebody else run my code (even with a setup sheet). You could push that onto the vendor but by the time I spent enough time proving your code, you'd have been money ahead if we had just talked about what you wanted and I did the cutter paths for you.

You don't know what kind of workholding they have or what specific cutters they may have for particular materials or conditions. They can't have all of that loaded into a machine at all times. That won't be in the tech database.

You've bought into the Camworks marketing (I've sat through the demos and heard the promises too). That stuff is all wonderful if you work at a single company and have strict process control. I seriously doubt you're going to find an independent shop who holds that kind of process control, unless you're going to keep them regularly fed with parts (production aerospace work as an example).

My $0.02. :)

I used to run a machine here and with Camworks and the process was I programmed it then gave the setup sheet to my machinist, he loaded the tools and held down the part like I told him to hold it down and just ran the job. Rather than keeping the big shop, I moved to a highrise design studio and would rather just farm out the machining. Instead of giving it to the machinist that runs the machines, I would just email it to a shop and they would take care of it.

Every tool I had I put into the Camworks database which then creates tool cribs which I have loaded into the machine. I would specify cutter length, number of flutes, material (HSS, Carbide, etc). The speeds and feeds library was calibrated for every material's SCFM so it was all automated. It took a huge amount of time but eventually it worked.

I agree that it's a lot easier to make the 3d model and all tolerances and send it to someone and just get back a part a few weeks later but a lot of time I want more control.

Again the point is to have virtual machining so all the control without maintaining the machine, cleaning up/disposing the chips/filling the coolant/etc.

OK, it sounds like you have a handle on all of it. You understand what it takes to load and unload a carousel full of tools. It sounds like you need somebody that is local as well, so you can discuss workholding or job setup. If you are going to do things to that level, why does the shop need to have Camworks at all?

Have you thought about talking to your CamWorks VAR? They should know who their customers are (near and far) and could probably suggest some shops. You'll obviously both need to be on current maintenance for this exchange to work.

When I was running the Haas VF4, we had ~15 standard tools always loaded such as a fly cutter, flat end mills of various sizes, ball end mills, single point tap, jacob drill chuck.

Application specific tools like keyway cutters and drill bits were loaded into the remaining 5 slots. Most shops I seen have a big 50 tool changer and really only need to pop in a specific tool once in a while.

I also had an automatic tool touch off procedure so the H tool offsets values were set automatically whenever a tool is loaded or unloaded. The coolant offset was set as percentage of the H tool offset.

The setup sheets generated by Camworks + avoid area drawing is all that is needed for workholding setup as you know where you can/cannot put the workholding.

My Camworks VAR said he didn't know any shops that did what I'm looking for - running a virtual machine shop.

Also I think having Camworks is actually makes this work.

For example, if I want to make a 1/2" pocket and use a 1/4" endmill and remove 1/32" cuts, if you change it to 1/40" cuts, there's quite a bit of work in rewriting the gcode but in Camworks you just change the properties of the operation and it regenerates everything. If the work holding area needs to be increased, that is also an easy fix and toolpaths regenerated.

Having a subset of standardized tools + Camworks to make adjustments like above is key.

When I was running the Haas VF4, we had ~15 standard tools always loaded such as a fly cutter, flat end mills of various sizes, ball end mills, single point tap, jacob drill chuck.
Hmmm...that sounds very familiar. :)

I've got a VF-2, the first 12 tools are always left in place, pocket 20 is the probe, pocket 19 is the Jacobs chuck, 18-down are loaded with job specific tools. I keep it that way for exactly the same reasons you cited.

That library is stored in Mastercam so I can grab the standard tools and just use them. If a cutter gets changed, it gets altered in the Mastercam library so the two always match.

I have the default cutter information loaded into that Mastercam library but I still don't use the defaults every time, for every cutter.

I still don't know if I'd trust somebody to run code on my machine, even if they were as familiar with the exact machine as you are. I also think that you're a rarity. That in itself limits the possibility of such shops existing.

I'm not sure how extensive the cutter information is in Mastercam but it's pretty extensive in camworks. It's based on a number of parameters like operation, number of flutes, material, diameter of tool and depth of cut.

So if I cut 1/8" deep into Al with a 4 ft carbide cutter for a pocketing operation, it knows the proper speed/feed (that you manually had put in there).

I agree the defaults aren't that good so it takes tons of tweaking. But once you get it all right, you really don't ever need to set a speed/feed again unless you throw in some extra parameters like tool wear and tool manufacturer.

The point is that unless you are doing magic, the experience you gain from using the machine all goes to 1:1 correspondance to the conditions in the TechDB.

I agree there are literally hundreds of combinations but again once you have it set up, you can just distribute the TechDB and everyone can run your machine like you would.

Also I developed a whole bunch of cool automation tools for the Haas that I never commercialized like computer vision tool inspection, auto toolseting measurements, laser rangefinding of work, etc so if you ever need something to speed up your process, send me a PM.

I've read the posts a few times and was wondering what the advantage would be for the shop if they choose to venture into this whimsical endeavor?

And the question was asked about needing the Tech-database from the other shop (Don Key Ho Tey):-). I couldn't figure that out at first. So, you say the other shop would provide their TD to you and you would do the programming? That would be inefficient from the get go. Why would I give you my TD that I may have hundreds of hours in just to have you send me what I can already create? That doesn't make any sence.

Also, I don't understand, you're a engineer and want to use Camworks as a means to eliminate the machinist or manufacturing engineer? And since the TD can store machining info, are you trying to get machining skills stored into a computer?

I do and have done prototyping work in medical research for some 20 years, 35+ years as a machinist, used a number of CAM programs, and used Camworks for the past 9 years. Since the advent of Solidworks, ProE, and other solidmodeling programs, my clients only need to send me the model and a pdf or text file that point out the tolerances that are important to them.

Every once in a while I'll get the rookie engineer that thinks a +/- .001 on everything is a good idea or one that thinks what a machinist does is easy and they can do it better, maybe that's what I think I'm reading here.

Take your own advice, let the engineer be and the machinist be, do what you do best.

Manfred, Freiherr (baron) von Richthofen said "It's not the crate, it's the man in the crate"

and that's my .02

TM

I've read the posts a few times and was wondering what the advantage would be for the shop if they choose to venture into this whimsical endeavor?
Yeah, after thinking about this, I'm not sure either. Is the goal to buy low-cost time on a machine, where you aren't paying for the manufacturing engineer? Or is this an attempt to get higher precision and / or better process control, albeit at a slightly higher price?

If a hypothetical machine is sitting, waiting for work, loaded with all of these fabulously documented tools, the cost of setting up and maintaining such a thing is going to be built into the per-hour charge. Even if a constant flow of work was coming through, setup, cleaning, tuning, maintenance and depreciation all have to be built into the price. That translates into an expensive option to get some control over your process.

If you need a skilled prototyping shop, you can either trust their ability to get the most out of their machines (and pay for it there) or take over that responsibility (and pay for it there).

I don't see this being a lower-cost option for you, considering that people are practically giving away machine time as it is. What exactly is the goal? I see you're in Las Vegas. Can it really be that expensive to get a 900 SF industrial unit and just park your own machine in there?

Of course there is this alternative:
http://www.emachineshop.com/

The TechDB is configured only for your machine. You don't need to share it but it just makes life easier. The people at Camworks have already configured the TechDb for general use configuring defining most operations with reasonable depths/cutting speeds.

If you really are an efficient independent shop that I can send a 3D drawing to and say +/- .005 on all tolerances except holes +/0 .001 on all holes then send me a PM and I will consider you for my next project.

Well, just thinking out loud with you here. :D

If you're going to choose a program like CamWorks, you've already severely limited your market of who to deal with. Yeah, I know, you don't want to hear 'Mastercam' but you really should have known. :)

I too looked at CamWorks--back in 2004. I had a 30 day trial of CamWorks and a 30 day trial of Mastercam 9. I couldn't make any sense out of CamWorks. It was absolutely awful. Maybe that's changed. I know Mastercam went through a huge change 6 months after that and that's where I am now (Mastercam X).

I understand all the techdb stuff. It's not really any different than the tool parameters that are loaded in Mastercam. Yeah, Mastercam will default all of the stepdowns & stepovers based on settings with the tool and type of operation. Yeah, it'll build all of the operations and produce wonderful looking toolpaths. That's all very nice for a slick salesman, standing at a booth at a tradeshow. I don't believe that it translates into the real world very well.

The biggest problems are things like thin parts that are held shallow (doesn't know to take light feeds & DOC because it doesn't know the part's going to climb out of the vise) and doesn't recognize features like thin walls that need to be snuck up on or thin pocket floors that will deform & dimple if you plunge feed. Those are all decisions that have to be made looking at the part and strategizing the best way to make what you want and to hold the tolerances you need.

There is no way I would blindly trust the defaulted operation settings, no matter how carefully the parameters were loaded for those tools. It's just not realistic unless all of your parts share similar attributes (like you always make molds, very securely held and very hard material).

Can you elaborate at all on what kind of parts you need? Are we talking about prismatic parts that would fit in a shoebox, larger, flat-ish parts or is this 3D contoured stuff (prototypes for consumer goods)?

What kind of volume are you looking at? Once a month? Once a week? A couple of times a year?

There may be somebody on here who has what you're looking for and might be willing to adopt CamWorks in order to get your business.

If you work with Solidworks, CamWorks has much better integration than mastercam.

I had a trial of Mastercam X3 and like you couldn't really figure it out.

I can't see any shop doing this. I have done Contract Programming for years now as a second income and I always have to be present to Set-Up and Run at least two parts to show the program is good. Even after a Full Solid Simulation in Predator Virtual CNC which I can tell you is way more accurate than any NCI Tool Path. Predator will show exactly what the G-Code is going to do (Per the Machine Deffinition of Parameters). However as mentioned before in this thread it can't take the place of an experienced Machinist.

I just can't see any shop doing this.

Honestly, what happens if you crash someones machine?? No software is perfect nor are the people operating the software.

It sounds more like you what something for nothing to me???

Just my $.02

I doubt I can convince someone to purchase a full version of Camworks if they aren't running it already. If Camworks were $1000 it would kill the market but you need to buy Solidworks 2009 (can't run older versions) for $10k then buy Camworks for $10-15k with all the mill/lathe/3d options so you are out ~$25k from the start + you need to spend a few months learning how to use it.
Solidworks is just under $6K for a basic seat and a year of maintenance--less if you're like me and just need to be brought back up to current.

Camworks is a huge investment of time and money. We seem to agree that you're not going to find what you're looking for in a production shop. You're really looking for somebody that also does prototyping, in a small company, with a similar setup & needs as you. They might already have a machine and machinist, but a surplus of spindle time that they could farm out to somebody like you. Maybe a race shop that builds specialty engines & components?

Those seem to be the people who bought into the Solidworks / embedded CAM model. Personally, I just couldn't get my head around a dedicated, embedded product like that, that required so much up-front investment, to get so little return on the effort. I'm even against the new Mastercam for Solidworks for many of the same reasons.

You are aware that Mastercam does do live updating from your Solidworks model, right? I believe that as long as it's parametric changes, not feature changes in the model, Mastercam will can ping the saved Solidworks file and retrieve & update the operations, based on the updated geometry.

My original VAR could have probably introduced you to somebody, but he's not selling Solidworks anymore.

Have you met Bloefeld yet? It sounds like he has a machine in search of something to do, with nobody (right now) to run it.
http://cnczone.com/forums/showthread.php?t=81810

Your machine your rules of course.

If one is really paranoid about crashing the machine, you are always free to read the gcode by yourself to ensure no bad feeds/speeds/overlimits. It's really not that hard to scan through some code by hand.


If you want to read through the 9k to 1.8 million lines of code in my programs, your more than welcome:D Hence Predator Virtual CNC.

As far as a Machinist's abilities I do know a few that can handle what you do with advanced surface topologies, but they will use a calculator, paper, and No.2 pencil :rolleyes:

If they want it faster, they use software.:)

I don't doubt machinist abilities. I've seen some guys, particularly manual machinist, make some amazing things that would take me a long time to program (mostly due to multiple set ups).

If you don't want my money, I'll find someone else that does. It's really that simple lol.

If you think me paying for your machine time is something for nothing, I can't argue with you there.
Well, I think that's the rub: you're trying to reduce the amount of your money that you spend. That reduces the incentive for somebody to take on this kind of work.

If you're offering $500 worth of work a month, it's not worth anybody's hassle to risk damage to their machine or tooling. If you've got $5000 worth of business per month, I've got two dedicated machines, waiting right now, for your priority use. Vegas isn't that far from Palmdale.

I will chime in one last time.
He says he is an "expert", has phd in his name, insults machinists, claims you can't be a CNC programmer unless you can program computers, etc...

Give up people. You cant change someone's mind who has done it before you, better than you, and faster than you.

Arrogance is different than confidence.

Okay Doc, here is the way a lowly little machinist looks at it.

Lets say you want a bag of apples, but you dont have anywhere to grow an apple tree and the nearest orchard is about 100 miles away.

You don't think its fair that the store charges you for washing the apples and storing them and picking out the bad ones and then bagging them for you and then paying someone to ring you out. So you want to cut out all of that and just wait by loading dock and grab them as they come off the truck.

The problem with this is that the store will not make any money and will eventually go out of business. Engineer and machinist, maybe. But an economist you are not.

Machine shops are a business and there is a set revenue structure that makes them able to make enough money to keep the machines running. You want to cut out that stream by bypassing some of their revenue streams. Can it be done? Sure. Does it make sense for the shop to do it. No.

It costs the shop a certain amount of money just to turn the lights on. That expenditure and all other overhead is absorbed in programming time, set up time, machining time and finishing time.

Stop being a cheapskate and just pay fair market!

You guys are all naysayers. He's a businessman and he's in search of a business. If one doesn't exist, somebody will create it for him. This is really no different than renting a car versus hiring a taxi. If you hire a taxi, you pay for every minute that the taxi is waiting for you. If you have a bunch of places to go, it doesn't pay. If you rent a car, you pay some portion of its depreciation up front, in the per-day costs but you do that so you have the luxury of using it exactly as you want to.

Considering that, I'll publicly make an offer (and I'm being serious here):


$400 per hour for the spindle (2004 Haas VF-2, 10K spindle, 2-speed gearbox, 20 tool umbrella tool changer, Renishaw probing system, macros, programmable coolant, auto air gun).
$800 per hour if you would like to use the machine in full 4th or full 5th mode (HRT210, HA5C or T5C configurations).
1 hour minimum, then incrementally charged after that. The time will be based on the simulation time that Camworks says it will take the job to run. If Camworks estimates it at 1.2 hours, you'll pay $480. No setup fee, no cleanup fee.
Materials, cutters and consumables not included. You will specify what cutters you want used and will supply them with the job or pay for them up-front. Used cutters and other consumables will be returned to you at the conclusion of the job, in their original packaging.
Every effort will be made to pre-run the part, both in graphics and dry run, at our expense.
If you made a mistake that requires the code to be reposted: 1-hour charge.
If something in the code does cause machine damage after the graphics simulation and dry run (excessive feedrates for example): you are responsible for the cost of repairs by the local Haas Factory outlet (parts & labor) up to the fair market value of the machine at the time of damage.
If you prefer, you can buy insurance for the machine at a rate of $200 per part. That will cover you for damage up to $15,000.
Tolerances, beyond the ability of the Renishaw tool presetter's ability are your responsibility. The machine will be prepped so all paths may run in cutter comp mode, per the diameters determined by the Renishaw tool presetter. No fine adjustments will be made unless prior arrangements are discussed and agreed upon.
Removed metal chips become my property. Any solid chunks remaining will be returned with the finished part. Disposal of coolant and chips is my responsibility.
Priority, 5-hour, hand delivery to Las Vegas is available, 7 days a week, at a flat rate of $400. Otherwise, shipping will be via conventional methods (UPS, USPS).

In return, your jobs will have first priority and will drop into the machine immediately upon arrival of materials. You will have a virtual machine shop at your disposal. You will not have to own the machine, clean it, set it up or push the green button.

I think that's a pretty fair deal and pretty comparable to renting a car. A few days car rental would exceed the monthly payment of owning the same car but it eliminates all of the associated costs of owning it. This might be a new business frontier. I've published my offer. Anybody willing to beat that may now step up and offer you their version, via PM or email.

I don't think the Director really cares what a machinist thinks, only what he can be used for, like most in his book of contacts.

After reading his other posts, I'm apt to believe he's the kind of person that might have the education he claims, but uses the skill he knows best, how to take someone else's experience, skills, and accomplishments and use them as his own. This explains his 'basic' knowledge, enough to sound like he knows the subject. That skill is useful for 1st line managers, you know the ones that always thinks saying 'hurry up' is an way to motivate employees. And use things like 'bad attitute' as an incentive to improve moral.

Good luck finding the next pigeon.


TM

I don't think the Director really cares what a machinist thinks, only what he can be used for, like most in his book of contacts.
As it should be. Why should he care how somebody feels? This is business, he's a businessman, making a business proposition. There are no feelings here.

This reminds me of the joke: would you have sex with a stranger for a million dollars? If you would, then we've established what you are; now it's just a matter of negotiating the price. :D

Go check this thread (http://cnczone.com/forums/showthread.php?t=78445) for the current, going rate for a self-employed machinist. I'm not offering a machinist or manufacturing engineer and I'm not charging all the time that would be necessary to pay for one. I'm negotiating the hourly rental of a current, low-hour machine that somebody wants to use on a part-time basis. :)

Based on the fact that I've paid $100 per day (plus delivery) for a forklift I could have bought for $4K, I may have priced the machine too low. We'll see how things go. :cheers:

I have my price in mind. PM and we can discuss.

I knew we'd get down to what he really thought. :D

$800/hour with no setup fee, for a 5-axis machine is high? You have some one-off, 5 axis part that is going to take an hour to run and you want a 5 axis machine to be setup and all the tools calibrated for less than $800?

You're looking for a specialty market...available at your whim. You have to pay for that. Car rentals are able to be done at a lower rate because they enjoy 75% or better usage rate. As for the costs you quoted on rental cars, BS. On my last trip, the rental was $20 per day, just for the insurance. You're looking at $70/day minimum on a market that enjoys high rental rates and a decent resale return when they sell it. A rented spindle is not going to get nearly that usage. If you want access to such a thing, you've gotta' pay for that.

If you owned a VF-4 for a $30K investment, then you should have kept it. It was far lower cost than any other option you're going to find. If you truly believe that setup is done by unskilled labor, then you could have contracted that work when you needed it

Honestly. I don't see what your dilemma is. There is no way on this green earth, you are going to get somebody to give you their tech database, that amounts to all of their years of knowledge, machining and business strategy, and their machine, for $25/hour (or even $50/hour).

Shop rates here are $40/hr for prefered customers or $25/hr for independent manual skilled machinists including all tools.

For $800 an hour, I can rent a $15 million crane with 3 man crew with insurance. If you find someone to pay you $800/hr when your cost is $5/hr with 0 labor, I'd definitely go for it!
Zero labor? I am not worth something? Business management has to get a piece of the pie. You also priced everything out as 24/7 usage. Nice try. If you find such a shop, they will have a queue so long that it'll be a year before you can get anything done--they'd have to operate that way, just to stay alive. And all of the maintenance and cleanup time has to be amortized into the cost of that billed hour, not to mention the beer-fed meat servo doing the work.

If you really are a businessman (which apparently, you're not), you'll realize that nothing is free. If you want convenience, that costs money. If you have all the time in the world, you can wait in line for for this mythical $25/hour machine. Go to China if you must. If you need your parts made, I'm available.(nuts) :D

No attack necessary. Your machine your rules.

No attack, just my opinion.
if it hits home just a little, I can see why you would say it's an attack.


The rent a car, get a taxi analogy:

henry_phd hails a cab owned by the Donkey Hotey Taxi Company.
henry_phd gets in and says he'll use your company taxi for the ride he needs.
But since he already knows how to drive a car, he wants to help you drive or show you some shortcuts through the backyards of Las Vegas, it will save him some money. Now you the driver has to decide if it's worth the trouble.
You think okay, business is slow so I'll try. With henry_phd driving he's able to cut an 8 mile trip costing $30 to a 5 mile trip costing him only $18.75. He exits the cab giving you $20 and says keep the change. Wow! a $1.25 tip!
But after he walks away, you get out and look at you cab. The muffler and catalytic converter are on the ground, one tire is going flat, there's now a hole in your gas tank, and one of the wheels is bent. Next time he won't use you, because your equipment is trash. You'll have to repair or replace your equipment before he'll grace you with his services again.


Now, I'll go back and read what he really has to say.

same .02, I want to get -my- money's worth.


TM

So, you consider yourself an expert because you used a demo of Camworks?
Oh, you read the sales brochures and talked to a guy who told you he was an expert?

Are you related to Jon Banquer by chance?


TM

I posted a request on CNCZone in the CAMworks forum looking to give a shop some business and save some time on the programming since we both have CAMWorks.

If you have suggestions of companies, post them here.

Also I'm not to insult you but just point out the obvious: you don't even have Camworks. Why do you feel the need to talk about the TechDB/Camworks/Price when you don't even own it?
Why? Because your pricing is so far out of line that the Camworks stuff just makes it even more absurd. You want to have an open exchange, with a shop that has that much expertise and that much investment and you want it for under $100/hour. I'm giving you the benefit of the doubt here that the $25/hour charge was for a 'machine only' type of arrangement. If you could be exchanging in that manner with a Chinese shop you'd be doing it.

The neighborhood gardener charges more than $25/hour. You can't get a car or motorcycle worked on for less than $50/hour (closer to $100 at dealerships). You want to be turned loose with a $100K asset for $25? At least with a car rental, you have to prove that you have a driver's license before they hand you the keys.

I'll tell you what, do you have your PE license? I need a licensed PE to sign off my designs. I figure that getting that license probably cost in the neighborhood of $100K. You have no overhead other than a cup of Starbucks and a laptop. I'll pay you $25 per signed-off design. After all, your education will be paid for in only 6 months (you work 24 hours a day, right?), just sitting in Starbucks and signing off designs. And licensed PEs are really nothing more than migrant farm workers, with a briefcase and a calculator.

If you're not willing, there are plenty of Indian and Chinese engineers that would gladly take that work from you. They're happy just to stay here after they graduate from our schools. Some of them will work for a bowl of gruel and the opportunity to live in the US. My asset makes tangible products. Your asset is only worth what the market will bear. Are we still negotiating? :D

Moderator should close this topic. Clearly we are off topic.

No, a 5-axis machine isn't worth $800/hour but if somebody wants that specialized of a setup for one hour, that's the cost. That was my point. I don't pretend that $400/hour is reasonable for ongoing work either. That's what it costs if you want everything to drop and produce your parts quickly. In reality, that's the same as the cost of $60/hour production being upset for a day, to rush your job through. That was my whole point: convenience, technical and intellectual investments cost money.

I don't think this is off-topic at all. You're in the Camworks forum. Anybody coming along can see exactly what you're looking for, and what you think it's worth. Maybe they'll leap at the opportunity.

Personally (and I'm clearly not alone here): it's not worth $25 to risk running somebody else's code in my machine. Heck, I won't run my own code for $25.

I publicly outlined my offer, you expressed what you see wrong with it. Now others can offer you better deals. Let the bidding stampede begin. :D

Well, it's back on topic now.

No, I do prototyping and I would never give a client my TechDatabase.
But it's easy to copy, go to camworks.com, download the default database,
add a couple of long reach endmills 1mm, .5mm, 1.5mm, a couple of small threadmills, and one 2" diameter convex radius cutter and you'll have my database.
Oh, add your machine too.

I charge $75 an hour for any machining, programming, inspection, scanning, I fix glasses for free. I have repeating clients who think I'm a bargain for the work I do for them. I don't need your work or the headaches that will go with it. And getting paided I'm sure would be a chore. Keep looking for your sucker, you'll find him, but not here.

I doubt if he's a PE, pHD was easier to get, you don't have to produce anything or be responsible for your decisions, but I'm sure he has the BS.

Still spending that .02


TM

.....Moderator should close this topic. Clearly we are off topic.

Yep, he's a Ph.D. As soon as things stop going his way he wants to bail out.:)

I have a Ph.D., so I guess that makes me an expert too, and this expert says you really don't have a clue about running a viable long term business.

.

Well haven't heard that one before but good for you.

I still think shopping for the best deal for my customers makes good business sense. I'm not operating a shop, I'm looking for one at the lowest price that gives me what I want so I can pass the savings to my customer.

Sounds like good business sense to me.

But, I'll still fix your glasses for free. :)

TM

Sign in many shops I've visited:

You can have your job fast.
You can have your job cheap.
You can have your job good.

...pick any two.

Did your toolsetter idea ever go anywhere?

http://www.cnczone.com/forums/showthread.php?t=61194

The toolsetter prototype worked fine but I never got around to commercializing it due to lack of interest.

It was relatively simple with some contact switches. I programmed a microcontroller to communicate over RS-232 and it set the H tool offsets in my Haas VF4 machine.

I didn't like the idea of contact switches so instead I made a new one that uses a laser line scanner and a camera source to both scan the 3D work location and laser scan the profile of the tool which gives both radius and depth without contact.

I used Camworks and know what it can do so it's just harder to rip me off compared to your other non-technical customers but good for you if you have a constant customer base.
So now somebody is ripping people off if they expect to be paid for all of their investments, overhead and knowledge? I'm just going to ask you outright: how much do you charge your customers per hour and what do you provide for that price?

Actually, I totally forgot about your posts on 3D scanning. I'll tell you what: I need some objects 3D scanned into point clouds (a couple of motorcycle gas tanks). I know from experience that it won't take a mouth-breathing troglodyte longer than an hour to do the job.

I'm willing to drive them to Las Vegas if you'll have one of your guys do the job. I'm willing to pay $25 for the hour on your scanner. After all, it's only costing you about $3/hour to own it and I'm sure it's not doing anything right now. I'll even pay you an extra $25 to plug it in.

No, I'm not interested in paying for any extras like an engineer to clean up the data. I've got Solidworks, I know what I need out of the point clouds and I don't need to pay some engineer to do what I can do myself.

If you drive over here, I'll lend you my laserscanner for $25 an hour with a $10000 deposit. I quote per job not per hour sorry.

One thing about this that I don't quite understand is if you can afford camworks and solidworks why not just buy a machine and park it in your facility. Given the maintenance fees, and technological depreciation of software, if you can utilize Solidworks/Camworks profitably, you should be able to afford a Haas.

I don't have Camworks nor solidworks, but you did mention you can send post processes G codes. So my bid is zero dollar but the rate goes up $1 per hour so at the end of 26hrs you'll be looking at $25/hr, and at the end of 101hrs you will be looking at $100/hr.

However, there is a catch. I'm just a dumb operator. You will have to provide the program, maybe watch the machining operation and yell stop if you notice anything beyond the detection limit of a dumb operator. If you part involves more than just plopping the stock on a vise, probing the corners and pressing start, you may find the cost of your time to talk me through the steps may easily exceed the $25/hr rate, and you will also be responsible or any damages caused by your code.

I promise to allocated at least 4 hours per week and depending on how busy I am, 4 hours may be the the maximum per week. . . spindle warm up takes 20 minutes.

So how does zero dollar sound? Just so we are clear on this, you are providing all the expertise, material and tooling to machine your part, I'm just a button pusher with some hardware.

The other catch is I don't know what your intentions are. If you are just hoping to product a prototype for production overseas in an authoritarian country, I can't help you. But if you're someone who wants to build something here in N. America and all you need is some initial help with machining on the cheap to get started, sure I have a Haas that sits idle most of the time and I can be that dumb operator for you.

Well as I mentioned before, there are just some things you don't want to get into. Painting a house or cleaning the pool is a pretty easy job most people can handle but I'd rather pay someone to do it as long as it's reasonable and fair market.

Arithmetic progression as a cost method sounds interesting. n/2 average pricing per hour sounds pretty cheap for the first 50 hrs. I'll send you a PM. If you want to get set up with Cam software, I can give you some instruction and set up your techdb for free as I use it so you can use it with other customers or yourself also.

The toolsetter prototype worked fine but I never got around to commercializing it due to lack of interest....

but making the code user friendly and creating a support network/etc is a big pain that I might need to hire some help to do eventually.

. I'm not really motivated to bring the hobby projects to market.

JohnJW; You can maybe judge the level of potential commitment to any project from the above.

If you drive over here, I'll lend you my laserscanner for $25 an hour with a $10000 deposit. Good luck figuring out how to use it in an hour though lol.

Actually I'd be very happy to lend it out to you for $25x24 hrs= $600 a day ANYDAY I'm not using it and if you don't need any help from me. $600 a day is good money to me for doing nothing but loaning out equipment.

The difference is that I want to use your machine for $25 an hour but I don't need any input from you. If I took up your time/expertise, I'd pay your shop rate.

I quote per job not per hour sorry.

Put your money where your mouth is and send me the $600/day :)
Great, that's a fair deal. Now change all of your terms from 'laser scanner' to 'milling machine.' $10,000 deposit and $600 per day sounds fair (charged in 24 hour increments, by the calendar day).

$600 per day x 192 manufacturing days per year =$115K. I can deal with that. When do we start?

Well as I mentioned before, there are just some things you don't want to get into. Painting a house or cleaning the pool is a pretty easy job most people can handle but I'd rather pay someone to do it as long as it's reasonable and fair market.

Arithmetic progression as a cost method sounds interesting. n/2 average pricing per hour sounds pretty cheap for the first 50 hrs. I'll send you a PM. If you want to get set up with Cam software, I can give you some instruction and set up your techdb for free as I use it so you can use it with other customers or yourself also.

Geof is sort of my machining role model so I will have politely decline you CAM offer and a progressive cost structure gives us a nice way to part company after set time frame. Unless you work for free, you will have to multiple the n/2 average with the cost of your expertise, which by your statements, may increase the cost structure by a magnitude or two. I am just an operator that pushes buttons. You will have to provide all the expertise, all the parameters and responsible for all the troubleshooting. Luckily I am in Los Angeles so UPS shipping back and forth is relatively cheap and fast.

Should I also ask you for a machine deposit first?

JohnJW; You can maybe judge the level of potential commitment to any project from the above.

My 06' VF2SS has 18:26 hours of feed cut time so I can probably match his level of commitment :)

Given all the free information and advice I've learned from everyone I think of it as form of public service. . . I don't worry that much about the level of potential commitment rather than who am I working with.

http://www.fullspectrumengineering.com/index.html

Domain Name: WISESTBUY.COM
Created on: 03-Jun-08
Expires on: 04-Jun-09
Last Updated on: 03-Jun-08

Administrative Contact:
Liu, Henry henryjliu@gmail.com
Getoverclocked.com
PO BOX 721
San Diego, California 92122
United States
(415) 683-0970 Fax --

Given one of the main attributes listed for his company is

"direct links to overseas Chinese manufacturing firms to quickly and economically bring your scale up your production "

I wonder why is he soliciting machining bids at $25/hr here in N. America.

Given he got his undergrad degree from UT . . . he could be your fellow countrymen :)

Greg, it's all about price. I'm sure you're a cute guy but I wouldn't pay you $800 an hour.

Send me all your work and I will outsource the machining for $60 an hour for manual labor (I'll pay $40 and keep $20) or $40 for machine time (I'll pay $25 and keep $15). You can charge $800 and hour and keep $760/hr.

Moderator should close this topic. Clearly we are off topic.

Not off topic if you consider that people are answering the question asked by giving concrete information/feed back.

Honestly I have a question for you. How is it that you feel your country and the people in it aren't worth fair market value? You live here too.

Here is the reality in case your not paying attention to the economy. If there is no economy here in the US or Canada everyone is effected not just Americans.

Remember that there are agencies outside the US that work cheaper than you too. So how do you justify your position of trying to swindle us in the world economy?

BTW: you have been replaces by software too, lol.

http://www.algor.com/

This is what I use for my designs.:D

I don't think it goes any farther than looking at what is in it for H_pHD or what's going into -his- pocket.

Reread the posts, what I read was (I'm paraphrasing) 'I can do it cheaper' 'I can do it faster' 'I know what I'm talking about so no one can rip -me- off'
etc. etc.

Not once did I read anything about equal or better quaility, workmanship, turnaround times, willingness to work with you to develop your prototype, I'll do a job for you where you keep coming back, etc.

I get/got the impression he woke up one morning back in June 2008 and thought about getting into machining prototypes, maybe he bought a machine, tried progamming and running it and discovered he didn't have the skill. So maybe he hired a kid to push a button and load the machine, got for mininum wage.
Oops again, he discovered he'll have to hire someone with skill, AND THEY WANT PAID! Why doing that will cut into his profit he figured he could make.

Okay, Plan B. Americans are dumb, maybe I can convince them to do the work I supply to them for a flat fee, and I can be a job broker. Camworks looks like it's easy to use, the salesman said so. Okay I'll get Camworks users to send me their databases, I'll get the work to them with CNC code from their own program, Camworks is free if you use ISOhunt you know, and I can just click the auto program button and make some money.



Only one problem, It hard to find dumb Americans that know something. Hmmm, Canada isn't that far away from Las Vegas....


:)


TM

Come on Doc! Don't let them get the best of you!!!!

You have a PHD! These mouth breathers probably went to trade school if they were lucky.

Don't back down! Show them how smart you are and how a PHD Engineer Machinist Economist Mathematician lays the verbal smack down!!!

-This is the most entertaining thread in this forum EVER!!!!-

I apologize if I have appeared to be unprofessional.

I'm disappointed in the staff at cnczone for allowing this to go so far off topic and disappointed in myself for falling into this flame war so I will politely summarize my point of view and refrain from any further comments.

Here are the facts:

1) I asked a simple question in the Camworks forum soliciting information about shops with a service. When I call a machine shop, they tell me what they can do and give me a price. If we don't see eye to eye, we say thank you and good day. Instead, we began on this flame war. I asked the moderator to close the topic and instead we continue and I know I am better than this. I apologize again for being unprofessional.

2) I was attacked on my integrity to pay debts for work from someone that has never worked with me (I have NEVER late paid anyone). If I have a paying customer that doesn't pay, I will personal guarantee the debt to my vendors.

3) I was attacked on my knowledge of the subject. I do not claim I know everything or an expert in all fields. If I don't know something, I ask someone that does. If I do know something then I tell you my professional opinion. If you don't like it, you can get a second opinion. If you ask me to support my statements then I will offer you the supporting evidence.

4) I was attacked on my work ethic and ability to complete projects by someone that has never worked with me. I assure you all paying projects are finished efficiently and guaranteed satisfaction or your money back.

5) Our staff at Full Spectrum Engineering is highly trained and professional. We can do whatever you need and you will not find any company better at what we do.

6) There are merits of overseas production. If you specify that you want purely US manufacturers, we will see that you have that option. If you hire us to find you the best price, we will give you all options and you can decide.

I apologize if I have appeared to be unprofessional.

I'm disappointed in the staff at cnczone for allowing this to go so far off topic and disappointed in myself for falling into this flame war so I will politely summarize my point of view and refrain from any further comments.

Here are the facts:

1) I asked a simple question in the Camworks forum soliciting information about shops with a service. When I call a machine shop, they tell me what they can do and give me a price. If we don't see eye to eye, we say thank you and good day. Instead, we began on this flame war. I asked the moderator to close the topic and instead we continue and I know I am better than this. I apologize again for being unprofessional.

*****
Simple question? Can I have your TechDatabase so I can make money based on your work? Answer:You gotta be kidding me!
*****
2) I was attacked on my integrity to pay debts for work from someone that has never worked with me (I have NEVER late paid anyone). If I have a paying customer that doesn't pay, I will personal guarantee the debt to my vendors.

*****
Attacked? How? With a question you were not prepared to answer?
*****
3) I was attacked on my knowledge of the subject. I do not claim I know everything or an expert in all fields. If I don't know something, I ask someone that does. If I do know something then I tell you my professional opinion. If you don't like it, you can get a second opinion. If you ask me to support my statements then I will offer you the supporting evidence.

******
You stated from the beginning you r smart and we are dumb machinists and we can't rip you off so don't try.
******

4) I was attacked on my work ethic and ability to complete projects by someone that has never worked with me. I assure you all paying projects are finished efficiently and guaranteed satisfaction or your money back.

*****
Impossible, your work ethic was clear from the beginning, you work for me I get you jobs, I r smarter than you, I pay u what I think you are worth. Your clients have to pay first???
******


5) Our staff at Full Spectrum Engineering is highly trained and professional. We can do whatever you need and you will not find any company better at what we do.

****
Good for them, god bless them for having someone like you giving them a bad name.
*****

6) There are merits of overseas production. If you specify that you want purely US manufacturers, we will see that you have that option. If you hire us to find you the best price, we will give you all options and you can decide.

****
I wouldn't worry about it, I think you would still sent the jobs where ever you got the cheapest price.
*****



And now you are the nice guy just trying to get along huh?



No attack, just some facts.

I might be left brained, but I try to be right minded.


TM


***The following was added using the edit button, no other changes were made***

Guess there was no point changing your previous post eh Doc?:stickpoke

I apologize if I have appeared to be unprofessional.

I'm disappointed in the staff at cnczone for allowing this to go so far off topic and disappointed in myself for falling into this flame war so I will politely summarize my point of view and refrain from any further comments.....


Don't apologize, and don't appeal to a 'higher authority'. This thread has not gone as far of topic as some threads including some I have started and the 'flaming' you have received is trivial; don;t be so thin skinned.

Take heart, you are serving a purpose in life by providing us with entertainment.:)

Given all the free information and advice I've learned from everyone I think of it as form of public service. . . I don't worry that much about the level of potential commitment rather than who am I working with.

http://www.fullspectrumengineering.com/index.html

Domain Name: WISESTBUY.COM
Created on: 03-Jun-08
Expires on: 04-Jun-09
Last Updated on: 03-Jun-08

Administrative Contact:
Liu, Henry henryjliu@gmail.com
Getoverclocked.com
PO BOX 721
San Diego, California 92122
United States
(415) 683-0970 Fax --

Given one of the main attributes listed for his company is

"direct links to overseas Chinese manufacturing firms to quickly and economically bring your scale up your production "

I wonder why is he soliciting machining bids at $25/hr here in N. America.

Given he got his undergrad degree from UT . . . he could be your fellow countrymen :)
THAT is funny...and a bit sad. It's amazing; we project an image in our head of who we think we're talking to on the internet. Still, some things still come through--loudly--between the lines.

I kept thinking that he either was a troll, or maybe there was just some huge cultural gap that we weren't getting. It's clear what he thinks of machinists and machine shop owners. This all makes sense now.

Henry: you're young, you're eager, you may be right. The only way you're going to find out is if you go create the business that you think could/would exist. Maybe you're totally right. Maybe you're half right (which would still be an impressive empire to build). We've all told you that it will fail but you think we're wrong.

An interesting thing happend in the late 1950s in the United States. There was this little country called Japan. They exported all kinds of cheap, little products to the rest of the world: transistor radios, toys, motorcycles and even cars. Nobody took them seriously. Everybody called it, "Cheap Japanese junk!" They had a low standard of living, people were willing to do virtually anything to make a buck and dedication to their companies bordered on obsession. A lot of their products were poorly made but some of it was not. Eventually, Japan became a world leader in design and production. Nobody calls Japanese made goods, 'cheap junk' anymore.

The problem? As their economy grew, those people all stopped working for pennies. Those people started wanting the same things as everybody else: running water, heat, good food, a comfortable place to live and maybe to enjoy some of the things they were building. What happened is their own standard of living rose to that of the people they were exporting to.

That same thing is happening in China and Korea right now. 15 years ago, nobody took Hyundai seriously. Today, they are almost considered mainstream. You know far more about China than I ever will but I can assure you that people will not work for $3/day forever. You can act as an American pimp for only so long. Eventually, the Chinese will also want to have a better standard of living for themselves. They will start thinking about their environment. They'll start thinking about labor laws and minimum standards of living. When that happens, the pimps that prostituted those people will be the ones who suffer.

The point is: if you can figure out how to lean a process and make it less expensive, good for you. Create this magical machine shop and show us how wrong we are by stealing our business out from under us. If your only goal is to pimp the Chinese and make a fast buck, you're going to someday have to sleep in the bed you've made for yourself.

Geof is right. This thread is actually a good little debate that touched on many issues that may even deserve their own thread.

You have to know that when you post any non mainstream idea in a public forum, you are going to get some push back.

Normal Person + Anonymity of the Internet = Total Jerkwad!!!!!!

But Doc, you also have to understand your audience here. We are mostly machinists that take our jobs very very seriously. You have to admit that you may come across in your posts as a bit "confident". I can only speak for myself that when anyone says that they are an expert at anything, I get a little skeptical.

I really do appreciate the heated discussion and interesting point of views. That is what makes these forums interesting!

Possible other topics that would be fun to start at thread with...

- Having stuff done overseas ALWAYS makes sense.

- MasterCAM users are knuckledraggers.

- Machinists need to go get a degree in Engineering to be good at their job.

- Fadal makes the best CNC machines ever made.

- I love Microsoft

Lets all have a chuckle!!!!!!

Lets all have a chuckle!!!!!!

I've been laughing for 2 days, I'm glued to these 2 threads! It's like a horrible train wreck, and as soon as you think it's slowed to a stop, more rail cars fall off the track.

I REALLY gotta get back to work, but I just can't stop reading!

.....I REALLY gotta get back to work, but I just can't stop reading!

Me too but I have a problem. Everything I have done this week has to go in the trash can because my starting idea proved to be unworkable.:(

Maybe I should have started wasting time here on Monday and saved myself a lot of wasted effort.

Good thing I only manage to pull these abortive ideas once or twice a year; that was this years first one.

Me too but I have a problem. Everything I have done this week has to go in the trash can because my starting idea proved to be unworkable.:(

Maybe I should have started wasting time here on Monday and saved myself a lot of wasted effort.

Good thing I only manage to pull these abortive ideas once or twice a year; that was this years first one.

No bad days, no good days...

"I have not failed 10,000 times. I have successfully found 10,000 ways that will not work" -Thomas Edison

Right.

I haven't wasted this much time on one thread for a long time.


I agree about machinists, as a group, we do not brag about our skills or accomlishments.
And when a new guy comes along and tells you how wonderful he is or your machines are junk compaired to what he trained on....you know he hasn't screwed up enough, but he will and then understand.


TM

6) There are merits of overseas production. If you specify that you want purely US manufacturers, we will see that you have that option. If you hire us to find you the best price, we will give you all options and you can decide.


The only merits of overseas production in authoritarian countries like China is the illusion of prosperity bringing about political liberalization. Sure, it worked with a majority of smaller countries, but after 20 years I seriously doubt it will ever work with China. Chances are, China will influence us long before we achieve any political impact on it and sadly I think we're beginning to see that right now.

My offers still stands but with the 20th anniversary of Tienanmen square coming up so are my conditions. People with money don't always hold all the cards. Some people are simply quite happy with their home made peanut butter jelly sandwich and are not interested in the extra cash needed for a lobster salad at a fancy restaurant.

The only merits of overseas production in authoritarian countries like China is the illusion of prosperity bringing about political liberalization. Sure, it worked with a majority of smaller countries, but after 20 years I seriously doubt it will ever work with China. Chances are, China will influence us long before we achieve any political impact on it and sadly I think we're beginning to see that right now.

My offers still stands but with the 20th anniversary of Tienanmen square coming up so are my conditions. People with money don't always hold all the cards. Some people are simply quite happy with their home made peanut butter jelly sandwich and are not interested in the extra cash needed for a lobster salad at a fancy restaurant.

I will take my PB&J on an English Muffin lightly toasted. Oh and don't forget the Banana's.:banana:

Hmmmmm........Nothing more than the truth:)

The problem is educating the consumer... I think most people here see the problem, and acknowledge it, yet watching Wal-Marts profit soar isn't a good sign.

But unfortunatly, the economic decay that he contributes to will precendent his life expectancy. I hope anyway, that includes my life expectency.

Thanks for all the responses. I found a good shop to partner with.

If you have a prototype part and want a better price. Send me a PM.

If you want a production part and want it made for the best price without sacrifice in quality. Send me a PM also.

I don't make comments about politics. I will give you prices for both outsource overseas and US manufacturers and you the customer can decide what you want.

I can supply both machining time and materials at highly discounted prices.

I guarantee shipment time and quality on all control overseas made components as well as include all excise and duty taxes in my quotes.

And there goes another head hunter.

I will give you prices for both outsource overseas and US manufacturers and you the customer can decide what you want.

I can supply both machining time and materials at highly discounted prices.

I guarantee shipment time and quality on all control overseas made components as well as include all excise and duty taxes in my quotes.

:)

Send us your 3D Cad files to:

quotes at fullspectrumengineering dot com

Include:
1) your business address (required)
2) federal tax id number or business license (required)
3) phone number and fax number for a return quote (required)
4) quantity (required)
5) material, tolerances and lead time (required)

Requests with missing required information will not be responded.

Companies without a supplied valid Federal Tax ID or Business License will incur a small quotation research fee.

Cheers!

Send us your 3D Cad files to:

quotes at fullspectrumengineering dot com

Include:
1) your business address (required)
2) federal tax id number or business license (required)
3) phone number and fax number for a return quote (required)
4) quantity (required)
5) material, tolerances and lead time (required)

Requests with missing required information will not be responded.

Companies without a supplied valid Federal Tax ID or Business License will incur a small quotation research fee.

Cheers!

And what is your preference of CAD format?

We can accomodate most file formats.

Solidworks preferred.

ProE, STL, or IGES ok.

The company that I partnered with has several full 5 axis DMC 60 T machines for prototyping and larger machines for production: http://www.gildemeister.com/us,milling,dmc60t?opendocument

Amazing.
Did phd go through all his posts and edit the insults out?!?
Go back through them. Where's the part where he claimed a machinist couldn't be a good programmer because he doesn't know how to program a computer?
Where are his insults?
Look at the edit times and dates.
Wow. Covering his tracks. Slimy as well as insulting.
Since he cries to the moderator, here's my cry: is there a record of his posts? Can you put them back in?

ahhh...I'll have to look.

Then I wouldn't supply him with the Solidworks file or any native format file.
If any size was cut out of tolerance he'd simply change it in the file.

Before any comment is made to contrary, I've seen this done and each time the person was fired on the spot for doing it.


TM

Yes, he did.
Now we are the bad guys. Too bad a post can't be added in front of his first post, he could make it look like a set up.

Check the email you use for CNC Zone.

Most of the Doc's orginal posts are there.


TM

Check the email you use for CNC Zone.

Most of the Doc's orginal posts are there.


TM

This is correct, but have you ever counted how many posts are made per day on cnczone. Because I type way too much I am subscribed to thousands of threads so I can get a few hundred notifications a day.

Check the email you use for CNC Zone.

Most of the Doc's orginal posts are there.


TM

Ah rats! I don't get email notifications.
Oh well.
BTW. I've been feeling bad about calling him slimy. That was just name calling.
I would like to apologize for that but return to the offending sentence and change it to this: Wow. Covering his tracks. Deceitful as well as insulting.
That can be backed up by his actions and isn't just silly name calling.
Sorry to everybody else too for the name calling. I'll try to be better.

Henry, that's how you do it. Acknowledge your error, apologize, and fix it. Don't hide it.

Ah rats! I don't get email notifications.
Oh well...

......Henry, that's how you do it. Acknowledge your error, apologize, and fix it. Don't hide it.

Errors, what errors, you cannot prove he made any errors. :D


I do think that kind of behaviour goes along with calling for the mummyderator to close the thread; somewhat reminiscent of; 'it's my bat and my ball...etc'.

Sorry if we had any misunderstandings previously.

Again to summarize, I found a very good overseas manufacturer to work with. The majority of the programming will be done locally then sent over to run on a full 5 axis DMC 60 T machines for prototyping and larger machines for production: http://www.gildemeister.com/us,milli...t?opendocument

if you have a prototype part and want a better price. Send me a PM.

If you want a production part and want it made for the best price without sacrifice in quality. Send me a PM also.

I don't make comments about politics. I will give you prices for both outsource overseas and US manufacturers and you the customer can decide what you want.

I can supply both machining time and materials at highly discounted prices.

I guarantee shipment time and quality on all control overseas made components as well as include all excise and duty taxes in my quotes.

Send us your 3D Cad files in Solidworks format (preferred), ProE, STL or IGES to:

quotes at fullspectrumengineering dot com

Include:
1) your business address (required)
2) federal tax id number or business license (required)
3) phone number and fax number for a return quote (required)
4) quantity (required)
5) material, tolerances and lead time (required)

Requests with missing required information will not be responded.

Companies without a supplied valid Federal Tax ID or Business License will incur a small quotation research fee.

Thanks again for the business opportunity.

Cheers!

Also if close tolerancing is an issue, we can laserscan all produced parts or a stastically random sampling of production parts and run a deviance report with Rapidform XOV at extra cost:

http://www.rapidform.com/portal/default/Products/index?Category=Products_RapidformXOVVerifier_XOVSub1

You will see deviations as small as .1 microns -> 4 millions of an inch on ALL dimensions!

Quality control at this level has previously been unheard of.

Companies without a supplied valid Federal Tax ID or Business License will incur a small quotation research fee.
So lemme' see if I've got this straight: you came here wanting to find somebody to just blindly run your code on their spindle (without quotes or programming time).

Now you are trying to sell us (the guys who own the machines) the service of machining? Have you ever heard the phrase, "Trying to sell ice to Eskimos"?

I'd like to pose some questions that you don't have to answer to anybody but yourself. It will help you to define exactly what your business model is:


What service do you offer that somebody can't get on their own (seriously)? Anyone can post an RFQ.
Anyone can post a request like this (http://cnczone.com/forums/showthread.php?p=467325#post467325) and find their own Chinese supplier.
Machine shops don't even want the customer to supply G-code so people don't need a third party to do their programming. If they do, they usually have a specialist in their area that handles the really tough jobs (a number of guys here do that already). You clearly think little of that trade so I don't think that's what you're trying to sell.
People generally have their own CAD design before they seek somebody to make it, so they don't need a draftsman.
Faro offers rental of their scanning equipment. If you want to charge $600/day mininmum for the use of your equipment (which I doubt is Faro), a person could just rent from their local sales office. Or they could contract any local shop with the same capability.

Thanks again for your inquiry.

Again to summarize, I found a very good overseas manufacturer to work with. The majority of the programming will be done locally then sent over to run on a full 5 axis DMC 60 T machines for prototyping and larger machines for production: http://www.gildemeister.com/us,milli...t?opendocument

if you have a prototype part and want a better price. Send me a PM.

If you want a production part and want it made for the best price without sacrifice in quality. Send me a PM also.

I don't make comments about politics. I will give you prices for both outsource overseas and US manufacturers and you the customer can decide what you want.

I can supply both machining time and materials at highly discounted prices.

I guarantee shipment time and quality on all control overseas made components as well as include all excise and duty taxes in my quotes.

Send us your 3D Cad files in Solidworks format (preferred), ProE, STL or IGES to:

quotes at fullspectrumengineering dot com

Include:
1) your business address (required)
2) federal tax id number or business license (required)
3) phone number and fax number for a return quote (required)
4) quantity (required)
5) material, tolerances and lead time (required)

Requests with missing required information will not be responded.

Companies without a supplied valid Federal Tax ID or Business License will incur a small quotation research fee.

Also if close tolerancing is an issue, we can laserscan all produced parts or a stastically random sampling of production parts and run a deviance report with Rapidform XOV at extra cost:

http://www.rapidform.com/portal/defa...rifier_XOVSub1

You will see deviations as small as .1 microns -> 4 millions of an inch on ALL dimensions!

Quality control at this level has previously been unheard of.

Thanks again for the business opportunity.

Cheers!

I say the 'Doc' is Jon Banquer.

No one is more self motavatied with delusions of grandeur than he is.

The Parrot talk gave it away this time, along with the 'Whole bunch of DIP switchs"

Playing Star Trek again huh?


TM

I contract in a shop that uses CamWorks, and while the man who uses the software is a great engineer, he knows nothing about machining. We are working together on a project now that he programmed in Cam Works, and his run time is over one hour on one side of the part. Total run time on the entire part should be about an hour and a half and we need to machine all 6 sides.

I have been a GibbsCam user for about 10 years, and yesterday I got a copy of the solid model of this particular part, and played with it for a while, and when I finished, the run time was just over 8 minutes. Now granted, neither system takes in to consideration your tool change times or rapids to and from the tool change point. All systems only consider the actual time the tool is in the cut mode.

I guess what I'm saying here is I think you yould be money ahead to draw the part, and let the machinist make his own program. I know I would be really pissed if I ran your program and wound up with a hole in the table or a vise.

I was idly perusing the posts and came across this;

"I write most of my advanced programs in Matlab and solve the inverse kinematics by myself which I translate to projections on the machining planes."

Can anyone explain in words of one syllable what he means?

P.S. Don't go to Wikipedia, I have been there and they use polysyllabic words.

Henry wrote "Sorry if we had any misunderstandings previously."

No.
There were no misunderstandings. Your arrogance came through and you insulted a large group of people and spread misinformation (lies).
Then you tried to cover your tracks by deleting the evidence.

Fortunately, for us all, Donkey Hotey and others have the evidence of your attempted deceit.

Now you are trying a childish repeating of nonsense.

Again, Henry, don't try to hide your errors. Acknowledge, apologize, fix.
Something reasonable people understand at an early age.

It means his setup planes are as dynamic as his BS.

He might have one of those rotating, articulating, knee-jerking, muffler bearing fixtures for doing 6 3/4 axis work.


I was reading some of the posts too;

He expects to be paid -before- he starts your work.

Las Vegas - isn't this the home of phone scam artists?
Maybe what were are reading is a new twist to scam the prototype market.


He ends his sentences with prepositions. Most who got passed the 7th grade
were taught not to end a sentence with one.

helpful link Doc YouTube - Grammar Rock Preposition

Of course, if you're any kind of slick salesman you're expected to. :)



TM

Can anyone explain in words of one syllable what he means?
I have two guesses:

He's wanting 5-axis machining and doing all of the A/B axis positioning from points he's calculated via MatLab.

or

He could be working on developed shapes, like flow manifolds. In that case, one could do the cross-sectional and area calculations in MatLab, then translate that directly to machine motion.

Of course, if this is what he's doing, there's generally an intermediate step where you would build the actual surfaces in your CAD package, then drive the machine from that geometry. He may have a reason why he's going directly from MatLab to the machine. Maybe the CAD model is too complex or it's unnecessary to the finished product. Hmmm...I wonder if this is why he just wants access to a machine?

Hey, Henry, if I've hit on it there, you really should consider buying your own machine. If you're that specialized, you have a captive market and they will have to pay whatever it costs. You made fun of $800/hour for 5 axis work. That was for a one-hour job, but the reality is that simultaneous 5-axis is very expensive work and takes highly specialized people to do the CNC. If you're also providing the engineering development work, that's big-bucks, specialty stuff.

I keep making the inverse argument with people: CNC machines are just a tool. In the hands of a machinist, they are a production tool. In the hands of an engineer, they become a development tool. A really smart engineer, who took the time to really master their own machine could do wondrous things.

Have you seen the Deckel DMU60? If I were a pure development shop, that's the machine I'd have. It's a reasonable envelope, rotary table fourth and articulated 5th axis. I think it'll go +/- 150 degrees. Lots of capability in that for your development work. Just an alternate way of looking at the problem.
http://www.dmgamerica.com/us,milling,dmu60monoblock?opendocument

Centroid has machines designed for that purpose.

They can add any feature you wish too, a Just DO IT button or a Can't rip me off button and the special I R Smart button.



TM

Hey, I don't think he's that bad of a guy. He's young and he just graduated from some heavy duty schooling. If he were older, I'd say he was an idiot. The reality is that he's just young and inexperienced. Yeah, he comes across with a bit of 'tude but who didn't at that age? :) I think there may also be some cultural gaps in how all this communication sounded on a web forum vs in person.

The reality is that he's trying to start up a business, he's not sure where it's headed or what its focus is but he's going to do everything he can. I can't fault him for that. We've exchanged PMs. I think he understands how it came across or he wouldn't have edited those posts.

I'm still here to try to help him--well, except for pointing him to that 'other business' like his, that I mentioned. :D

They started out 10 years ago as three college grads (engineering), formed a development house, doing in-house prototyping and machining. You could walk in with a napkin sketch and a checkbook and walk out with developed, designed and manufactured parts in only a week or two. Ten years later, they almost can't keep up with their growth.

....He ends his sentences with prepositions. Most who got passed the 7th grade were taught not to end a sentence with one.....TM

I do too.:)

Greg this whole thread is somewhat reminiscent of martin05, yes?

I do too.:)


adverb.


Plus, I'm not sure if that rule applies to Canadians.:)


TM

adverb.


Plus, I'm not sure if that rule applies to Canadians.:)


TM

Sure it does. It is something up with which we will not put.

And if that is not familiar go Googling.:)

I have two guesses:

He's wanting 5-axis machining and doing all of the A/B axis positioning from points he's calculated via MatLab.

or

He could be working on developed shapes, like flow manifolds. In that case, one could do the cross-sectional and area calculations in MatLab, then translate that directly to machine motion.

Of course, if this is what he's doing, there's generally an intermediate step where you would build the actual surfaces in your CAD package, then drive the machine from that geometry. He may have a reason why he's going directly from MatLab to the machine. Maybe the CAD model is too complex or it's unnecessary to the finished product. Hmmm...I wonder if this is why he just wants access to a machine?

Hey, Henry, if I've hit on it there, you really should consider buying your own machine. If you're that specialized, you have a captive market and they will have to pay whatever it costs. You made fun of $800/hour for 5 axis work. That was for a one-hour job, but the reality is that simultaneous 5-axis is very expensive work and takes highly specialized people to do the CNC. If you're also providing the engineering development work, that's big-bucks, specialty stuff.

I keep making the inverse argument with people: CNC machines are just a tool. In the hands of a machinist, they are a production tool. In the hands of an engineer, they become a development tool. A really smart engineer, who took the time to really master their own machine could do wondrous things.

Have you seen the Deckel DMU60? If I were a pure development shop, that's the machine I'd have. It's a reasonable envelope, rotary table fourth and articulated 5th axis. I think it'll go +/- 150 degrees. Lots of capability in that for your development work. Just an alternate way of looking at the problem.
http://www.dmgamerica.com/us,milling,dmu60monoblock?opendocument

But if The 'DOC' has the big bucks to spend on Solidworks, Camworks, Rapidform, Mathlab, etc., why not buy Floworks for Solidworks?
He could do the CDF for himself, change Surfaces at will, Camworks is associative (as long as the original defined surface doesn't change), toss it on his Hass and away he goes. He could also contract the CDF service and do very well with it. Again, his own words, do what you do best and you should be successful.


TM

Greg, thanks for understanding.

I acted like a punk and I was out of order. It is too easy to get out of line when you are randomly typing on the computer. For that I am sorry. I have removed my previous statements because I retract them.

As for solving equations of motion, here is an example. I have attached a project I am working on with a CRS A465 Robotic Arm as a CNC machine (no bit mounted currently). There are 6 motors but none of these are along orthogonal. In a 3 axis machine all axes map to XYZ. In a 4 axis, usually there's XYZ and A the rotation. Now instead I have 6 motors to control. If I want to move straight down (G01 Z1.1 for example), I would need to swing the arm out while moving the shoulder down while twisting the wrist. All the motors are connected through a set of rigid equations of motion. Solving these equations of motion in the world of academics is known as solving the inverse kinematics. I write code in Matlab or C to point the 6 motors to make straight lines or follow an arc on a projected machining plane or normal to 3D surface. In 5 or 6 axis maching, it is a common problem because not all axes will be orthogonal. Cam programs will calculate certain things but not everything so it's back to basic math problems when these occur.

I run a research and engineering firm. I do not have any machining capabilities at all. I outsource all our machining work to guys like you who are experts in the field. Since some of our staff speak fluent Mandarin and Cantonese and frequently visit China, we can arrange overseas machine time and materials at discounted rates for larger production. When I need something done quickly or require a US source, I will go to my local machine shops or post a RFQ like anyone else.

I look forward to being more helpful than rude in the future.

:cheers:

[QUOTE=henry_phd[QUOTE]



I stand corrected.


TM

HENRY! Welcome aboard, mate! That is some seriously cool work you're doing there. Yeah, I understand what you're doing with the robot & the math behind it.

I know of at least one application where they were considering using Kuka Robotics for doing the same thing. As I'm sure you know, the problem was holding accuracy under a load (it could position very accurately but couldn't hold the position and apply a machining load). That's going to be the development magic.

I'll keep an eye out for low cost machines that you might be interested in. I posted up those two VF-1s but they were probably too far gone for you. A nice Minimill and a Toolroom lathe would run on single phase power and fit in a garage or very small shop (maybe even an office). They turn up all the time on eBay. There was a nice TL-1 in Arizona that was $14K and I don't think it got a single bid.

Thanks for keeping me in mind but I leave machining to the experts - guys that do it all day long. I'm just a programmer and math junkie.

The shop in China with the 5 axis DMC 60 will run my code so it's like almost having a machine except it's a few thousand miles away and I need to pay shipping everytime. European machines are popular over there I guess, not too many Haas. I need to write my own posts but it will be ok after some debugging.

My set ups are limited to what can be held in the 4 jaw chuck but supposedly you can machine an entire engine block with two setups (chuck it, machine 5 axis, flip it over, machine the rest). I will probably just leave the remenant holder there most times and have someone local finish it manually.


I'll keep an eye out for low cost machines that you might be interested in. I posted up those two VF-1s but they were probably too far gone for you. A nice Minimill and a Toolroom lathe would run on single phase power and fit in a garage or very small shop (maybe even an office). They turn up all the time on eBay. There was a nice TL-1 in Arizona that was $14K and I don't think it got a single bid.

As for solving equations of motion, here is an example. I have attached a project I am working on with a CRS A465 Robotic Arm as a CNC machine (no bit mounted currently). There are 6 motors but none of these are along orthogonal. In a 3 axis machine all axes map to XYZ. In a 4 axis, usually there's XYZ and A the rotation. Now instead I have 6 motors to control. If I want to move straight down (G01 Z1.1 for example), I would need to swing the arm out while moving the shoulder down while twisting the wrist. All the motors are connected through a set of rigid equations of motion. Solving these equations of motion in the world of academics is known as solving the inverse kinematics. I write code in Matlab or C to point the 6 motors to make straight lines or follow an arc on a projected machining plane or normal to 3D surface. In 5 or 6 axis maching, it is a common problem because not all axes will be orthogonal. Cam programs will calculate certain things but not everything so it's back to basic math problems when these occur.


I thought about picking up a CRS robotic arm on ebay because it's one of few low cost robotic arms that are usually available with a full set of manuals and software. However, I think it's a chain driven arm and the accuracy wasn't as good as some of the servo based arms. . . .

Anyway, I wish you the best of luck. Since you are in the business of out sourcing our manufacturing jobs to China, a country if allow to continue on its current course of political/economical development will potentially threaten the democratic system that you have so greatly benefited from, I sincerely hope your company is at least using legal copies of solidwork and camworks.

Thanks for your message. The CRS robots are built in Canada are full servo driven (500ppr encoders on all motors) not chain with .05mm repeatability accuracy. Maybe you're thinking of the Labvolt robots. These actually cost $60,000 from CRS before they were bought out by Thermo Fisher. A new C500C controller alone without the arm still costs $18,000 from ThermoFisher today and the servo gripper itself is $2800.

The current F3 unit still costs about the same with minimal improvements but the absolute encoders are very nice:
http://www.thermo.com/com/cda/product/detail/1,,21080,00.html

By redoing the controller, you have a lot more control. PM me if you ever need any help with robots. This project is just vision/research mostly. We're trying to make it scan a part and cut it immediately afterward.

I thought about picking up a CRS robotic arm on ebay because it's one of few low cost robotic arms that are usually available with a full set of manuals and software. However, I think it's a chain driven arm and the accuracy wasn't as good as some of the servo based arms. . . .

Thanks for your message. The CRS robots are built in Canada are full servo driven (500ppr encoders on all motors) not chain with .05mm repeatability accuracy. Maybe you're thinking of the Labvolt robots. These actually cost $60,000 from CRS before they were bought out by Thermo Fisher. A new C500C controller alone without the arm still costs $18,000 from ThermoFisher today and the servo gripper itself is $2800.

The current F3 unit still costs about the same with minimal improvements but the absolute encoders are very nice:
http://www.thermo.com/com/cda/product/detail/1,,21080,00.html

By redoing the controller, you have a lot more control. PM me if you ever need any help with robots. This project is just vision/research mostly. We're trying to make it scan a part and cut it immediately afterward.

Thanks for the info. I'll keep that in mind. I think the one I was looking was an A255 and it was a chain driven model. I'll keep my eyes open for the servo driven model. I can't afford a new one but the older ones were priced low enough to be tempting.