HI,
Does anyone know why BobCad don't offer a reasonable priced upgrade option for people with V22 to V23.
I had a sales guy quoting me full price for V23, when i have V22 already, so in realaty i would only be getting a few changes to my original product.
If BobCad offered an upgrade for lets say between $50 to $100, then almost all of current users of V22 would upgrade, thus keeping everyone on board with the latest Versions.
People would upgrade every time with this option, after all its only a download, and then an upgrade to exsisting (dongle) lincence.
I think someone should approach Bob him self with this suggestion, after all there must be loads of people with V22, who just find this such a rip off price, to pay almost the same price as someone buying for the first time.
Another benifit is that you would keep most users together, and thus not having to provide support spread over all the range ie, V22 support, V21 support, V20, etc.

I think you’ve got a good point with keeping everyone on board with the same version. I also think it’s a bit of a slap in the face that when they sold you the “old” version, it was so good and has all the wonderful improvements. Now a new version is out and this fixes all the wonderful improvements the never really worked.:stickpoke

I’m not trying to single out BobCam, most software companies (Windows for example) do it. But really, how many of you would tolerate a new television set when only half the channels work? You complain about it and the proposed solution is to purchase another new television. Software companies have been doing this for years and yet we continue to buy the new and improved knowing full and well it never does everything they told you it would.

It shouldn’t be a surprise when something works! (chair)

Alright, rant off.

I think there should be a very substantial discount for previous buyers. I know, I don’t like maintenance fees either but how much are we really saving when you get whacked for the full purchase price every year or so? I think there may be a few other advantages to discounts.

12 “upgrades” at $100 or 1 new sale at $1,200 might seem a wash but I think they are missing the boat. A cheap upgrade would keep existing users on the software. Before I spend a couple grand or so (I have 2 seats) for something better, I’m looking at what other CAM systems can do.

I just upgrade a couple of months ago. I ended up paying allot less than the advertised price. The question I asked myself is, At full pop, what is stopping me from looking at other software.
I think for at higher price it releases thier current users into the market to shop. IMO a mistake.

I’m not trying to single out BobCam, most software companies (Windows for example) do it. But really, how many of you would tolerate a new television set when only half the channels work?

I run a small software company in my day job. CAD/CAM/machining is a hobby/educational project for me.

The main cause of what you describe are customers who buy on features rather than quality. I have never lost a sale because customers tested my product against others and found it had more bugs. I get calls every day from my salespeople asking "when are we going to support feature X?"

However, bugs do cause customers to leave. In my system, you access everything over the web (through your browser) and instead of buying it once, you pay an annual subscription fee. Every customer is always on the latest version and we "upgrade" it constantly with features and bug fixes.

AFAICT, BobCAD is doing pretty much the same thing except instead of calling it a subscription, they just arbitrarily rev the version every so many months and send the salespeople out to re-sell it. This works until you bomb it really good and people start to lose trust. I've thought about upgrading to V23 but why rush when V24 might be coming out any day?

Personally I like the subscription model a lot and I think it's also good for clients but it works a lot better with a web-based system, and CAD/CAM is one of the few areas that will probably be desktop-based for many years to come.

Never pay full price. Wait a month or two they will call back with a better offer. What ticks me off is one week after I purchased v23 they called me up and wanted to sell me their "support" package. And three weeks after I bought v23 they called and wanted me to buy their "new" improved path generator. If it's so new and improved why don't I have it on the version I JUST bought?!!!!! Hope you all get to read this. It probably won't stay on here very long. Too many B.C. connections. I'd like to go one month without hearing from B.C.

That's kind of my point about the subscription-vs-purchase idea. If you took what I paid for BCC, divided it by 12, and said I'd pay that every month to use BCC and always have the latest-and-greatest, I'd go for it in a heartbeat.

In my system, when you cancel our subscription though, you don't get to keep the software. So I suspect that approach would meet with a lot of unhappiness and sales challenges too. Most companies arrive at whatever sales model produces the most revenue with the least resistance pretty quickly, or go out of business.

Just a few things I will mention as I see this thread develop. BobCAD-CAM has always been a low cost system regardless of the amount of functionality that we have developed into it. In 23 years, have we made a mistake or two by not continuing testing when we should have? Yes. Have we always come behind that and fixed things so that any wrongs were made right? Absolutely.

For anyone to take a serious look at the amount of toolpath options we have made available in version 23 and turn around and complain about the price, I would only say that they should step out into the CAD-CAM market and have themselves another look so that they can see what is actually happening. Particularly right now. Understand that the more cash you have...the more glory in toolpath you can load up on. But here is my question...why would anyone pay thousands of dollars for 13 or 14 types of 2.5D toolpath when another company can accommodate just about all of them for $500? Our prices are low and on top of that we still run good sales.

Also, because we sell a high volume, we have to expand our support team as we go, training materials and trainers. That costs money. The support membership is an option, not maintenance or a "subscription." We provide updates to all of our customers free of charge and that includes any bug fixes as well. WE pay for that, not the customer and if you look at the functionality that we have added in those free updates, you would be impressed that we have given so much away.

CNC Dude

CNC Dude:

V23 was announced a month or two after I bought V22, and it had a good number of features which I would have liked, including the 4th axis features which were in V21 and I thought I was going to get in V22. I actually started out looking for V21 because it had both lathe and mill but your salesguy convinced me V22 was so much better on the mill (which was all I was doing at the time) that I decided to go with that.

Am I screaming mad? No, I got exactly what I paid for. Just like when you go to the carnival midway, as the saying goes, "You pays your money and you takes your chance."

Hi all,
Well now i started this thread due to the fact that i thought it was expensive for an existing customer to get the newer version, where some of the new features where things that was prommised by sales team in version 22, (but these features were not there).
To CNCDUDE, where do you get your prices of $500 from, (apart from this weeks special offer price), list upgrade prices for bob cad V23 are :-
Mill between $995 and $1500
Lathe $995
Art $995
Wire $995
Other CadCam packages may be more expensive original outlay, but you tend to get free updates to your software, and not a new version offered in a relatively short time since the last version.
if you do high volume sales then:-
lets say you have a total of 5000 existing customers
and you offered upgrade price of say $50
most customers would upgrade to latest version
therfore 5000 X $50 = $250000

Plus new customers paying the full price for there first version, and there after joining the existing customers upgradeing regually, after all you would still get the same number or even more new customers like this.

you would therefore have a really large customer base almost all with latest version, and singing BobCads praises everywhere, thus getting even more customers and thus growing the customer base even more, you could then bring out a new version at lets say every 12 to 18 months, thus generating more profits.

As for the claim that you have made any wrongs right, well V22 was one big wrong and a low upgrade price would be the way to put that right, any chance that some one would take that on board.

Also the claim about being always beening a low cost system, that may have been true in the begining, but now the are many others, which offer the same or almost the same, (and it would be more than adiquate for most users), just to name one try OneCNC, cheaper than the cost of V23Professional $3495, and it will do what most users want with easy.

And just to finish off for the moment, as if to prove the point that V22 was a big mistake or wrong, the BobCad wed site shows version V21 and V23 for sale, but nowhere do i see V22. Now that says ups V22 was one big wrong, (ps no one offered me upgrades or fixes for all the isuse it has, the just more to a new version and ask you to pay again).

Now if anyone from BobCad would care to chat about these issuse and maybe even offer a cheap upgrade, well now i'd listern, after all loads of customers also have more that one seat, (doggle), to maybe upgrade. and in this down turn in all the worlds ecconimays, bobcad could get the most benefit by trying the low cost upgrade option.

Keep the post coming, and please take the time to vote.
:drowning:
(group)
:(

Have we always come behind that and fixed things so that any wrongs were made right? Absolutely.

But here is my question...why would anyone pay thousands of dollars for 13 or 14 types of 2.5D toolpath when another company can accommodate just about all of them for $500? CNC Dude

Dude,

Have you ever used the software in the shop? Please define fixed because BCC struggles with simple 2D pocketing and profiles. A work around isn’t a fix. I have to post the NC file twice every time I start BCC because it will post incorrect arc centers the first time. These problems have been around for at least the past 2 versions and yes I reported them.

13 or 14 types of tool path is the game BCC is playing. Too many new features is your problem. I would consider paying twice your V23 retail price for a CAM that would consistently and correctly machine only 2D contours and typical hole operations. Let me arc onto the contours at the end of an entity not where ever the software likes. (No, it doesn’t always start at the beginning of the contour.) Let me helical plunge into pockets where I want to without driving through the islands when the tool returns to the plunge position. Let me choose a form tap when I want a form tap and chip break cycle when counterboring holes.

Sound simple enough?
I bet I’m not alone. Twice the price.

I have ver 21 which I dont use. But bobcad called and wanted me to upgrade to 23. I kept saying no, they finally offered it at 200. But I told them I still wouldnt use it so there was no use buying it. But that gives you an idea of what you can get them down to.

KTD - Yes I have used BobCAD-CAM software in a shop and so have others. What's your point? I was referring to our new High Speed Pocketing toolpath which by the way, if you actually used, you would be blown away and maybe change your tune. I am beginning to wonder if you would rather start a fight than actually load the software and use it. Pissing and moaning about prices will get you nowhere and is about as unproductive as sitting down and contemplating rocks. I feel like saying "Get to work!"

Look, if you have an issue with something that has happened to you whether it is a customer service issue or a software issue or a whatever issue, you can call me directly and I will do everything I can to clean it up. KTD, the features you listed are done and will be available in an upcoming release build. These features will be NO CHARGE for existing customers!

The form tool request will have to be looked at and I appreciate the input. That may take a little longer. If you have a problem posting code then you should call support and get it worked out. In fact KTD, why not PM me and tell me all of your grievances...every one of them. This way I can help.

CNC Dude

I’m not looking for a fight, just stating my opinion. BCC should be selling new features not functionality. There’s a big difference. My apologies if I came off as offensive.

Sending PM

No problem KTD1. It's all good. I want to make sure you have the right software for what you need to do and that you are a satisfied customer.

CNC Dude

No problem KTD1. It's all good. I want to make sure you have the right software for what you need to do and that you are a satisfied customer.

CNC Dude
Apparently I don’t know how to do private message. Left a visitor message.

Hi all,
Now, now boy and girls, no fighting, the issues will not change if people start fighting over things, now KTD i know how frustating every thing is with BobCad, sales people tell you that every thing you want is included, and works fine and is simple to use, but when you get it and try these things, it's simply not true.

For example i was told that V22 included 4tgh Axis machining, now that is not simply not true.

The main points of this topic still remains unanswered, why no cheaper upgrade price from V22 to V23. After all, as i pointed out even BobCad don't seem to mention selling V22 anymore, but do still offer V21 besides V23, (now that rings alarm bell that V22 was full of nothing but problems).
V23 seems to be what V22 should have been, after all when in the CAM mode, and doing pockets for example there are options which are grayed out, these must have been planed to be included, but i think someone must have rushed V22 out before it was finished, thus all the problems.

The reason people want a cheap upgrade from V22 to V23, seems to be that V23 seems to be V22 with all the main problems fixed, and all the options now included, after all if V22 was a car, then V23 would be the same car but now with electric windows and a few extra trim pieces.

Come on now BobCad, its time to do the decent thing and offer the cheap upgrade price, and get everyone back on your side, even if you was to push this as a recession buster, everyone who is watching the pennies at this time, would be interested, where as at the prices you have listed on the website, people don't even consider changing. Partly due to the fact that V22 dose everything or almost everything V22 dose, so why spend loads of money, for an upgrade, (maybe it should be call a fix), when you can still get the job done, no matter that it's a bit more of a struggle.

Niow KTD1 becarefull, they want to make sure you have the right software for your needs, sounds like they want to sell you some extra addon or something, so good luck, please post the results on here, we all want to know how you get on, and just how far BobCad will go to keep customers happy.

Still not found anyone from BobCad willing to get in touch about the issues raise here, or even an offer to upgrade cheaply, come along BobCad don't be shy!.

Keep posting and voting, or just vote if you don't want to post.

Hi segengineering
I think one of the things you are missing here is that you have to negotiate to get a good price. You are quoting figures of thousands which to be fair you are getting from BobCad's website. Reading these forums you will see that no-one takes these prices seriously. Even when CNCdude replied to you a figure of $500 was mentioned. If you wanted V23 then if I was you I would use that figure as a maximum starting price for you and then just negotiate with them. If you are good enough at negotiating then I would think you will get a better deal on V23 than you will get by coming on here and talking about it....

I find these forums great for technical advice etc. but when people just use them for bashing Bobcad then it gets a pointless.

I just upgraded to V23 and so far, I'm really happy with it. I've been a V20 user for years, purchased V22, but was slow to upgrade due to my concerns about quality and re-training myself. The re-training has really been a non-issue and the features and stability seem very good.

I think the BobCAD pricing strategy is very confusing for new users. When I first bought the software I thought I got a great price, only to find out that friends had purchased it for 60-75% of what I paid. You feel ripped off, or like a dummy for failing to negotiate or ask the right questions. I think the pricing should be a lot more transparent, or many people go into the experience with a sour taste in their mouth. Then if the software doesn't meet expectations it only goes downhill from there.

So, even though I paid more than I might have - I always felt that I received a very good value. I put the software to work and didn't whine about it. The small difference in price was absorbed by my first decent sized job using BobCAD.

I'd really like to see a standard upgrade policy for existing customers. Again, not because I feel like I've been taken advantage of (I have not), but so that people understand what their options are, and are encouraged to stay current. Pick a number - Purchase base system for $500, free updates for 1 year, upgrades are $250. Something along those lines.

Perhaps the BobCAD number crunchers feel that this doesn't allow them to make their revenue numbers, but it might help attract new customers and keep old ones. Look at this as a long term relationship. Get to know your salesperson, the support staff, etc. Hopefully the pricing model will improve, or at least become more stable. Frankly, I'm encouraged by what I see with the product.

Steve

Apparently not that concerned.:bs:

After a few days of playing phone tag, today I upgraded both seats to V23, at very considerable discount:cheers:

some what was this good upgrade price of yours, or do you have to keep it secret on the pain of death?

They didn't say it was a secret so...... $395 for both keys.

I had no intentions of upgrading right now but, I felt they were really trying to make things right.

I've only played with it a little so I can't tell if there are any bugs yet.

I've only played with it a little so I can't tell if there are any bugs yet.

Make sure your post is up to date with all the rotary added. If you have customized your post there are some lines that will need to be added to have things go smoothly. You can download the new one from the website then diff them with predator editor to see lines that may need to be added. There are some lines for the "arc fit" that need to be added for this to work right also.

Hi every one i to felt ripped off by boob cad on v22 and i updated in march went to mill pro and predator upgrade in v23 and the high speed pocketing.However after updating after letting them call me fifty times and haggling i got a good price to update.Since then i have been very pleased with bob cad v 23 it seems .I have three cad cam programs and use some for somethings that some can not do it seems that they all have there holes in them there is a lot of pressure on the designers to get these things out the door and fix the problems as they come up.It seems to be the nature of the beast and cnc software as well as hardware also do not get me started on some of these breakout boards and so called software programs out there they are just plain dangerous!!!!:violin::violin:

Why does this thread keep popping up at the top of the list showing a new reply? Mod editing?

EDIT: Duh, probably people voting on the poll.

Yeah, but it wont get as many reads as the greatest poll ever created! :banana:

Did this thing get ironed out? Im still using V20, I bought
V22 couple of years ago and am just now starting to watch
the videos and learning the V22 format

Am I wasting my time? What does V23 fix over V22?

One thing I cannot get to function is the "Verify" Function

The window just sits there and says "Preditor vertual 2005....." Loading

Is this an option? I like to see what a posted program does on screen before
I load to mill

Wayne