Hi all zoner's,
Guy I know (shanus) is getting me to make up a gas carburettor conversion for an 80cc generator.
Eventually, he would like to have a self contained system where it splits the hydrogen to run itself.
I have seen it done on the net before, apparently the cocktail left over from the water tank is a toxic sludge which defeats the purpose entirely.
I am setting the motor up to run on propane and LPG for now.
Unpressurised hydrogen would require completely different mixing to pressurised natural gas, I am hoping there may be somebody who has ventured down this path who can help.

What you speak of isn't possible. In order for the generator to run itself by splitting it's own hydrogen you would need 100% efficiency in the entire system.

Well, my friend is an electronic engineer and seems to think it possible.
He says that they use denatured water, a special salt of some kind and metal shavings. (aluminium, I think)
He supposes that it works but produces a toxic slime after electrolyte is spent fuel.
I am really a hired gun to put hardware to his requirements, but it is not common knowledge to convert a 4 stroke motor to hydrogen. (compression,timing,temperatures,mixtures,upper lubrication)

I do realize the pure water option is not possible. (100% 'over unity' as you say)

That does work, with the aluminum that is; the system is decomposing the aluminum and generating hydrogen gas.

Essentially what you are doing is using aluminum as a fuel for the engine. Not really cost effective and not energetically efficient because it takes a lot of electrical energy to refine aluminum.

Thanks for clarifying that geof, take's a lot of power to smelt aluminium.
So really we only 'move' the carbon emission, not eliminate it.

Thanks for clarifying that geof, take's a lot of power to smelt aluminium.
So really we only 'move' the carbon emission, not eliminate it.

Yeah but its already been smelted. The best way is to mix a bunch of aluminum with Lye and water and the chemical reaction will make a ton of hydrogen.

After all, what else are you going to do with all those metal chips? They aren't worth anything at the scrap dealers these days!

Another problem with using hydrogen in a combustion engine is 'hydrogen embrittlment'... Hydrogen, when burnt or heated under pressure, [combustion chamber], combines with the heated metal surfaces and these surfaces eventually fail due to the embrittling process introduced by hydrogen migration. In tests, the only material that seems to hold up for any reasonable length of time is ceramics, a very expensive alternative...

I don't think you don't have to worry about hydrogen embrittlement in an internal combustion engine. It is correct that hydrogen can migrate into the crystal structure of metals and cause micro-fractures; this is why welding electrodes should be kept dry and why low hydrogen electrodes should be used on medium and high carbon steels. Hydrogen migration can also occur during electroplating which is why whenever medium and high carbon parts are zinc plated they should be baked at a few hundred degrees. In an engine the parts are getting 'baked' all the time.

Another reason I don't think you need worry is because BMW introduced their Hydrogen 7 car a few years ago which has a more or less standard engine that can run on gasoline or hydrogen. I would imagine the engineers at BMW do know about hydrogen embrittlement and must have figured it was not a concern.

Another reason I don't think you need worry is because BMW introduced their Hydrogen 7 car a few years ago which has a more or less standard engine that can run on gasoline or hydrogen. I would imagine the engineers at BMW do know about hydrogen embrittlement and must have figured it was not a concern.

I should have been more clear. I was speaking in regards to "do it yourself projects" and the resultant disappointment that some may be facing. I am in no means telling anyone that they shouldn't experiment. I just would advise them to use some other car than the one that they depend on every day...

The use of hydrogen to fuel cars has been around a long time. Back in my youth, this was a high school science project, [1949 Ford flathead coupe], and the method was much the same as it is today with the only differences being a 6 volt source [cars were 6 volt in the 50s]. The other difference is that we found that water has a resonant frequency where it accelerates the H O splitting thus requiring an adjustable frequency generator to be feeding a bridge rectifier to get a DC output to the cathode and anode. The frequencies were between 55,000 and 65,000 Hz. The adjustment is needed because there seemed to be a resonance depending on the size of the the container [cavity] holding the water.

The first thing that always broke and kept the engine from running at all was the rings. The first time our rings broke, we kept trying to run it anyway which caused the rings to disintegrate more and messed up the cylinder walls to the point that we had to rebore the block and put in bigger pistons. After that, the first sign of failure, the engine was checked for problems and it was always ring destruction due to hydrogen embrittlement. Full Circle chrome vanadium racing rings lasted the longest.

There probably are advances in metallurgy that allows BMW to achieve some success, but I would like to see some high millage statistics before giving a thumbs up. The silicon/aluminum engined Vega that Chevy announced to the world is the first long range failure that pops into mind.....

That's right dufas, my friend did the same with a briggs stratton in the mid 1990's. He used the the bridge rectifier of of 240v mains (dangerous) with two carbon cores from D size batteries as electrodes. He got it working well, but after ten minutes of running he broke the rings as well.
We were going to revisit the idea, but in the light of having toxic sludge left over from the aluminium we have now looked at other ways of splitting hydrogen and storing it at low pressures. The 1100watt genset was sold and we are back to the drawing board.

That's right dufas, my friend did the same with a briggs stratton in the mid 1990's. He used the the bridge rectifier of of 240v mains (dangerous) with two carbon cores from D size batteries as electrodes. He got it working well, but after ten minutes of running he broke the rings as well.
We were going to revisit the idea, but in the light of having toxic sludge left over from the aluminium we have now looked at other ways of splitting hydrogen and storing it at low pressures. The 1100watt genset was sold and we are back to the drawing board.

We never had much of a problem with 'gunk'. Stainless steel plates were used and distilled water was the H O source. There was some experimentation with hydrogen peroxide that worked well but cost analysis put it around $4.00 a gallon while gasoline only cost $0.18 a gallon at the time.

I bought a magnetic gas line device for 29.95, but my jeep still sucks gas like a 747- what's up?

I bought a magnetic gas line device for 29.95, but my jeep still sucks gas like a 747- what's up?

You mean one of those clamp on things that is supposed to 'polarize' the fuel molecules so they vaporize more efficiently; or some such thing?

I am not going to say they do not work, but I will say that I do not know of any scientific principle by which they could work. There was that worded carefully enough so the company that sells them cannot sue me?

I know this problem digitalmdi,
The system needs the enhancement of chakra crystals which must be aligned to magnetic north at all times which requires some inventiveness.
These draw 'flux waves' from the earths magnetosphere which makes the whole system work.

Failing that you could just keep driving towards the north to keep it running.

Share your results with us please will you?

I bought a magnetic gas line device for 29.95, but my jeep still sucks gas like a 747- what's up?


Your Jeep sucks gas because it was made in the USA and is therefore guilty of crimes against the environment. Once we have a cap-and-trade system in place your Jeep will stop sucking gas because it will be too expensive to run it.

I bought a magnetic gas line device for 29.95, but my jeep still sucks gas like a 747- what's up?

Wrong polarity.................

I have been working with GE and a small group of inventors/engineers for the last six years. We are trying to acheive perpetual motion, we have but the rpm s are very low. Im sorry to say but the magnetic fuel line thing, is not going to work at all. I think everyone should pay close attention to water, and the HHO gas that can be acheived from it, that is the future.

If you are talking about energy sources the only form in which HHO is useful is as a liquid at the top of a big hill.

Sounds like you are the cutting edge, Dustin407.
I've heard of neodymium magnets arranged on a rotor to create a perpetual motion, out of my league, interesting nonetheless.

You can actually do this, a gallium aluminum alloy mixed with water will yield a lot of hydrogen gas and aluminum oxide. This will generate hydrogen on demand no storage needed. The gallium is a catalyst and remains unchanged. The aluminum oxide can be smelted back to aluminum metal with a large wind turbine. No carbon emisions and everything recycles. Cost is comparable with $2-3 dollar a gallon gas.
Amplexus Ender

I'd be interested in seeing the cost breakdown that yields $2-3/gal gas equivalent. Only because gallium isn't exactly cheap. Are we talking a 20% gallium alloy?

AlGalCo's progress I think should be the benchmark to follow.

This same principle could be used with carbide...
Wow! A carbide powered car? We could call it the Morris Miner??

.....This same principle could be used with carbide...
Wow! A carbide powered car? We could call it the Morris Miner??

Not really the same principle.:)

Carbide is bad, bad, bad; it produces ethyne which creates Carbon Dioxide when it is burnt.

You are missing the point, gallium is catalyst it is unchanged at the end of the reaction. Also only a few percent is needed just enough for a few thousanths of an inch coating on the aluminum pellets to prevent an oxide layer from stopping the reaction. Cost is relative to the cost of electricty, I believe the $2-3 dollar figure is based on nuclear generated power. Data is on the web if you want to hunt for it. This is a much better solution than storing pressurized hydrogen.
Amplexus Ender

You are missing the point, gallium is catalyst it is unchanged at the end of the reaction.......

So now you have a container in your vehicle which contains a sludge of aluminim oxide and a tiny bit of gallium. What are the economics/practicality of recycling this sludge? I agree theoretically it is possible but what are you going to have, sludge stations where you empty your tank and then it is collected and shipped off to an aluminum refinery somewhere. You are missing a few points I think.

So now you have a container in your vehicle which contains a sludge of aluminim oxide and a tiny bit of gallium. What are the economics/practicality of recycling this sludge? I agree theoretically it is possible but what are you going to have, sludge stations where you empty your tank and then it is collected and shipped off to an aluminum refinery somewhere. You are missing a few points I think.

You have the same amount of gallium that you started with. It may require some physical operation to separate the gallium from the aluminum oxide but as a catalyst it is unchanged chemically by the reaction. The gallium works by keeping the aluminum oxide from sealing off the aluminum and stopping the reaction.

What I read was that the energy required to break the bond between the aluminum and the oxygen was significant. In fact one author said that the only feasible source of energy was to locate the processing plant next to a nuclear power plant. You not only have to break the aluminum - oxygen bond, but because aluminum is highly reactive to oxygen, you would have to remove the oxygen from the environment of the aluminum to keep it from reoxidizing.

Alan

I realaise the gallium is a catalyst and is unchanged but at the end it is mixed with the aluminum so you need to collect all the sludge and process it to recover the gallium then re-refine the aluminum. Large amounts of electrical energy are needed for refining aluminum and it is only economically feasible on a large scale. This means your sludge has to be collected and transported large distances which makes the entire concept energetically and economically impractical.

Yes it takes a lot of electricity to refine aluminum, the charm is you do not have to store high pressure hydrogen, It is also a good mix with wind and solar which are intermittent energy sources and have the potential to be vheap.
Amplexus

.....It is also a good mix with wind and solar which are intermittent energy sources and have the potential to be vheap.
Amplexus

Where do you get this? An aluminum refinery needs a steady source of electrical energy. I stole this from Wikipedia:

Aluminium cannot be produced by the electrolysis of an aluminium salt dissolved in water because of the high reactivity of aluminium. An alternative is the electrolysis of a molten aluminium compound.

In the Hall-Héroult process alumina, Al2O3 is dissolved in a carbon-lined bath of molten cryolite, Na3AlF6. Aluminium oxide has a melting point of over 2,000 °C (3,630 °F) while cryolite has a much lower melting point; a small percentage of aluminium oxide dissolved in cryolite has a melting point of about 1,000 °C (1,830 °F). Aluminium fluoride, AlF3 is also present to reduce the melting point of the cryolite.

The mixture is electrolyzed. This causes the liquid aluminium to be deposited at the cathode as a precipitate, while the carbon anode is oxidized to carbon dioxide. The electrical source used by many smelters has a very low voltage (typically 3-5 volts), but a considerable amount of current is drawn by the circuit - in state of the art cells the cell current can be from 220kA[1] to 340kA.[2] Hundreds of these cells are usually arranged in series and supplied from a single transformer set that generates the current with a voltage of 1-2kV from 110kV or more high voltage supply lines. The heavy current is supplied through heavy busbars usually made of cast aluminum. The cells are electrically heated to reach the operating temperature with this current, and the anode regulator system varies the current passing through the cell by raising or lowering the anodes and changing the cell resistance. If needed any cell can be bypassed by shunt busbars.

I put in the Bold; you cannot refine aluminum from an intermittent source because a steady current is needed to keep the bath molten and operating; you can ramp the process up and down but you cannot turn it off. Many aluminum refineries in the past were located in regions with abundant low cost hydroelectricity, however, I believe now one of the larger aluminum refiners is a French company that uses nuclear generated electricity. They do not do this because it is cheaper but because nuclear reactors cannot be ramped up and down easily; the aluminum refining is used to maintain a load on the nuclear facility when the demand for electricity declines at night.

I will agree you don't need to store high pressure hydrogen but you do need to store bulky and heavy aluminum and recycling is not feasible as I have already mentioned.

In looking into the aluminum-gallium scheme, I'm not convinced that we even have the infrastructure to initiate a cost effective program, whether it be vehicles or homes.

The processing of spent aluminum, recovery of the gallium, and energy required currently don't exist for a wide scale application. Like you say, Geof, there's no way you could do this with wind or solar power....or corn. Nuclear is the only practical energy source if your goal is to eliminate CO2.

I'm not real clear on one point....I'm reading that the idea is based on a liquid state alloy? Don't see how this would work using gallium as a coating, rather, it would need to be incorporated in the aluminum uniformly, and there'd need to be sufficient constant surface area to provide the gas needed. An aluminum foam maybe? Sintered? I dunno, I just work here.

But if you're going to go the aluminum power route, why not just use an aluminum battery? Create electricity, power the electric motor, get a new battery. The efficiency is way up over an IC engine, if for no other reason than the heat loss. You've still got the sludge and still have to reprocess, but you're going straight to go.

....I'm not real clear on one point....I'm reading that the idea is based on a liquid state alloy? Don't see how this would work using gallium as a coating, rather, it would need to be incorporated in the aluminum uniformly, and there'd need to be sufficient constant surface area to provide the gas needed. An aluminum foam maybe? Sintered? I dunno, I just work here....

I think he mentions somewhere up there that it is aluminum particles; pre-sintered you could say.

You can easily refine aluminum in 8 -12 hours which is about the amount of time there is wind, I see no reason you have to run an arc furnace 24 hours a day. It depend upon scale, do you want to make 50 pounds of aluminum a day or 50 tons? Arc furnaces are scalable. If you want large scale, hook up to a nuke plant, for cheap electricity they are hard to beat. The Idaho national labs/ Jeffery Testor geothermal paper promises petawatts of cheap electricity with zero carbon. A far more promising technology than either wind or the best darpa solar cell which is 47 percent efficient. Darpa's production goals are $2.00 per watt and 1 sq meter per sec production speed which is amazing if they reach it but still not good enough to put much of a dent in the U.S. energy budget. Testors (MIT) spallation drill cuts 100 ft of solid granite per hour, one hell of a supersonic flame cutter; drill the holes pump water down and steam comes out; add turbine and you have cheap power. Have you considered spending more time figuring out ways to implement new technologies instead of putting up lame excuses why even existing technologies can't work. If Edison took that tact we would still be sitting in the dark. The aluminum / hydrogen on demand technology has great potential or do you advocate the electrolysis of water? For that matter Nasa buys liquid hydrogen for $0.60 cents a gallon made from methane. Driving around with a bomb on board will be lots of fun. My experience with galloum is that it will melt in your hand (wear a glove) and should coat an aluminum pellet in the same manner mercury coats a silver coin. Seperating gallium from aluminum oxide should be trivial, melt the gallium and pour it off through a filter or centrifuge it and let it cool, it can also be done chemically. but hey we don't need any of this just one of those magnetic gas line thingies.

Amplexis Ender

You can easily refine aluminum in 8 -12 hours which is about the amount of time there is wind, I see no reason you have to run an arc furnace 24 hours a day. It depend upon scale, do you want to make 50 pounds of aluminum a day or 50 tons? Arc furnaces are scalable.....

Amplexis Ender

Aluminum is refined in an electrolytic cell not in an arc furnace; did you not read what I copied from Wikipedia. It is not possible to let the molten electrolyte solidify without destroying the carbon lining.

You see problems where there are none, you can build an electrolytic cell any size you choose, and anyone with a lick of sense would pour the melt before it solidified.
Amplexus

You see problems where there are none, you can build an electrolytic cell any size you choose, and anyone with a lick of sense would pour the melt before it solidified.
Amplexus

I see, you are going to pour out a molten mixture at a temperature of 1,830 degrees F. Into what are you going to pour it and then how are you going to remelt it to restart your refining?

What was I thinking, it is clearly impossible to refine aluminum, and sand casting, no one could possibly manage that.
Amplexus

clearly impossible to refine aluminum
It's time for those handy chakra crystals.

Just MHO, but perhaps as an alternative path to alternative fuels, I have seen plenty of diesel engines running off of waste vegetable oils and some can be run on tallow.

One of the leaders in the field is Frybri (www.frybrid.com). Basically, you start the engine on regular diesel to warm things up, heat up the waste oils to about 160 F (reduces carbon buildup in the cylinders) and switch over to the waste oil.

I am not suggesting that growing plants and feeding fresh, food grade oil should be done, but certainly oils and fats that are not edible are fair game IMHO. It is also a good way to "purge off" old animal by products and reduce disease transmission.

Good luck on this project!