In waiting for my X3 to show up at Harbor Freight, I've been trying to decide on tooling...which seems even harder than choosing a machine! Thankfully, others have posted their want lists as guides for me.

Specifically, when a machine's specs say "face mill capacity 3 inches", is that the overall diameter of the face miller? (Is it the same for fly cutters as that is what I want).

Say the specs show endmill capacity at 1", but if you have a large ER collet, can you hold larger than 1" -not that I am planning to. I guess what I am wondering is, what determines these capacities?

Also, what size Indicol holder fits the X3? A model number or "grip/clamp size" would help. I have a DTI 0-15-0 (I think) but don't know what the dovetail size is (or where to measure).

Thanks!

The capacities suggest the maximum size tool that should be utilized given the power and rigidity of the machine. I have end mills much larger than 1" with 3/4" shanks that can easily be held in the spindle of any machine with an R8 taper... doesn't mean that that machine has the power and rigidity to swing said tooling. I suspect that an x3 would be less than satisfactory trying to make a pass with either a 1" end mill or a 3" face mill with any significant DOC (depth of cut) in anything harder than plastic. A 2" flycutter for "planing" and 1/2" end mills will likely be the limit of that machine's work envelope.

Joe

In waiting for my X3 to show up at Harbor Freight, I've been trying to decide on tooling...which seems even harder than choosing a machine! Thankfully, others have posted their want lists as guides for me.

Specifically, when a machine's specs say "face mill capacity 3 inches", is that the overall diameter of the face miller? (Is it the same for fly cutters as that is what I want).

Say the specs show endmill capacity at 1", but if you have a large ER collet, can you hold larger than 1" -not that I am planning to. I guess what I am wondering is, what determines these capacities?

Also, what size Indicol holder fits the X3? A model number or "grip/clamp size" would help. I have a DTI 0-15-0 (I think) but don't know what the dovetail size is (or where to measure).

Thanks!

The "specs" say a lot of things, much of which is designed to make perspective customers feel good about the "capabilities" of said mill. The realistic version is that you'll never actually use tools that large in a machine that size. Beyond the occasional face mill for small amounts of stock removal I think you'll find your use for larger tools is pretty much unnecessary using CNC.
Machines the size we are talking about here are limited by spindle horsepower, and overall machine rigidity. While you may be able to easily chuck a 1" end mill in the collet, you prolly don't have the horsepower or the rigidity to make use of it.

Thanks guys, just as I thought it would be.

Anyone have any info on which Indicol holder fits this machine?

Also, for an R8 chuck endmill adapter. Are these the right ones? The wording seems different every site I go to.
http://www1.mscdirect.com/CGI/NNSRIT?PMPXNO=17742720&PMT4NO=58712678


Also came across this, Indexable endmills. Are these indexable tools any good? I believe HSS is better for these smallish machines, can't tell if this is HSS or not. The codes are still a foreign language to me!
http://www.cdcotools.com/item.php?itemid=433


In looking at LMS' site, there is a starter kit.
Starter Set, Manual, Tormach Quick Change
http://www.littlemachineshop.com/products/product_view.php?ProductID=2441&category=
What is a...
Screw Adaptor?
Precision TTS-R8 collet? vs a regular R8 collet?
Do I need all this stuff?

They also have a basic R8 to ER-32 set. I don't know if I need all these sizes. But I've read somewhere that these ER collets can hold drill bits also, so having a wide range of sizes would be beneficial?

Collet & Chuck Set, R8, ER-32
http://www.littlemachineshop.com/products/product_view.php?ProductID=2888&category=2

Back to the capacity question,

X3 specs are 2" capacity for fly/face cutters. What dimension of the tool does this refer to? Diameter or shank diameter?
At Enco for example,
Type: R-8
Diameter (Inch): 2-1/2
Shank Diameter (Inch): 2-1/2
Tool Bit Size: 3/8

Back to the capacity question,

X3 specs are 2" capacity for fly/face cutters. What dimension of the tool does this refer to? Diameter or shank diameter?
At Enco for example,
Type: R-8
Diameter (Inch): 2-1/2
Shank Diameter (Inch): 2-1/2
Tool Bit Size: 3/8

They are talking about the diameter when discussing face mill capacity, not the shank.
As a personal preference I like to use the ER32 over the R8 for actual holding of tools. The ER32 has a much greater holding range, which in my experience gets a greater grip on the tool causing less slippage. I like all of the ER series for tool holding.

In looking at LMS' site, there is a starter kit.
Starter Set, Manual, Tormach Quick Change
http://www.littlemachineshop.com/products/product_view.php?ProductID=2441&category=
What is a...
Screw Adaptor?
Precision TTS-R8 collet? vs a regular R8 collet?
Do I need all this stuff?


you need the tormach collet because it has a ground flat nose. in theory you could make your own, but its probably not worth it.

build your own set, much better than the sets imho. all you need to start with is

the tool height setting block: http://www.littlemachineshop.com/products/product_view.php?ProductID=2437&category=209730719
and the collet: http://www.littlemachineshop.com/products/product_view.php?ProductID=2454&category=209730719

add chucks (with adapters), ER tool holders, end mill holders, etc depending on what you need: http://www.littlemachineshop.com/products/product_category.php?category=209730719

I like the idea of having extras, so you can have things like center drills or edge finders that never get taken apart and are always ready to use.

As much as I'd like ot set up with the Tormach system right out of the gate, this project is breaking the bank so fast for me that I simply decided to get a $35 R8 collet set from Enco.

I'll take the money I save and get the 2.5" R8 boring bar set from Grizzly and their cheap fly cutter set. As I figure that these tools will be used less frequently and I won't miss not having them set up for quick change.

That should get me by for some time.

The Tormach system is really nice, and for a lot of people, the collet holders (which aren't cheap) aren't really essential. You can also make your own drill chuck holders and such on a lathe and save a few more $.

It really isn't necessary though until you get to programs which require tool changes and you want to use a tool length table. This is useful, but definitely not something you need to get into for a while if you're new to CNC. And you can do tool changes in a program without a TTS-type system, but it is a lot faster and less error-prone.

They are talking about the diameter when discussing face mill capacity, not the shank.
As a personal preference I like to use the ER32 over the R8 for actual holding of tools. The ER32 has a much greater holding range, which in my experience gets a greater grip on the tool causing less slippage. I like all of the ER series for tool holding.

So I can hold fly cutters etc with the ER collets? I thought I was limited to endmills, drills, only.

As much as I'd like ot set up with the Tormach system right out of the gate, this project is breaking the bank so fast for me that I simply decided to get a $35 R8 collet set from Enco.

I'll take the money I save and get the 2.5" R8 boring bar set from Grizzly and their cheap fly cutter set. As I figure that these tools will be used less frequently and I won't miss not having them set up for quick change.

That should get me by for some time.

I am leaning toward this route too, buying only certain shank sizes of tooling. I will switch to ER-XX later if the need arises. At which point I plan to only buy the ER collets I really need.

Or, does everyone think I'll need to move to ER-XX anyway, and might as well do it now rather than spending money on two sets of tooling families?

you need the tormach collet because it has a ground flat nose. in theory you could make your own, but its probably not worth it.

Can you explain why I need the ground flat nose? As opposed to...I don't know, this is all new to me.

I am leaning toward this route too, buying only certain shank sizes of tooling. I will switch to ER-XX later if the need arises. At which point I plan to only buy the ER collets I really need.

Or, does everyone think I'll need to move to ER-XX anyway, and might as well do it now rather than spending money on two sets of tooling families?

You will find 99% of your straight-shank tooling ends up being 1/2" and 3/8" shank, unless you get into small endmills, in which case 1/8" and 3/16" shanks are common.

Regards,
Ray L.

So I can hold fly cutters etc with the ER collets? I thought I was limited to endmills, drills, only.

A collet for the most part is a collet. It will hold whatever you put in it. The ER series has several advantages over the R-8 style, namely it's range of collapse is far greater and it's positive release design.
At work I have several ER chucks in various sizes that go into the 30 taper machine (Hurco BMC). I use them for most end mill uses, although I will use them for spotting drills and occasionally taps. We have drill chucks on 30 taper holders and 30 taper shell mill arbors to hold face mills. This is a much different class of machine, and you're doing something different with tooling.
The greater collapse range of the ER series lets you hold a far wider range of tools accurately with less runout than if you just had a set of R-8's.
The Tormach style setup is nice, and it's the direction I'm headed (although smaller) for my mill. You use 1 R8 collet with it's nose ground flat (instead of domed like the stock ones) This lets the individual tool holders sit flush against the nose of the spindle, which is repeatable. You then have a series of holders for end mills, some possibly with ER chucks, drill chuck holders etc. The shank size that fits the single R8 collet and rests against the spindle nose serves the same function as the 30 taper in my earlier example. This system is most useful when you want to set your tool offsets once, and then switch between them without having to reset everything.
If you are just starting out though, just stick with R-8. Get a 1/2", 3/8" prolly a 1/4", 1/8" and a 3/4" should do fine for almost all of the simpler stuff. It will get you cutting, and save money for later when you will know better how you want to approach things.
R-8 is so common you'll also find good deals on used tooling with those kind of shanks. Face mills, drill chucks etc. Scope ebay, or used machinery places. By me they have auctions all the time where shops go out and they sell off everything. You can usually walk away with a table full of tooling for < $100.
Don't get too hung up on all the different options just yet. In time you'll learn what works best for you. Then you can drop the coin on the good stuff that will perform best for what you need.

Can you explain why I need the ground flat nose? As opposed to...I don't know, this is all new to me.

There are two differences between the Tormach collet and holders compared to standard, both different so that the tool will *always* extend precisely the same distance from the end of the spindle. First is the relief on the top side of the tool holder, that ensures the holder cannot make contact with the collet, but rather contacts *only* the flat surface on the bottom of the spindle. Second is the flat face on the collet, which is there for the same reason. When the drawbar is tightened, the toolholder is pulled up until the outer "ring" on the top face of the holder is firmly seated against the bottom face of the spindle, this ensuring the tool extension is precisely the same each time that tool is mounted.

Regards,
Ray L.

You can watch Tormach's animation (http://www.tormach.com/Flash/TTS_small.html) that shows how their holders work with
the R8 collet.
They work great and are repeatable. I don't use anything else on my mill now.
Hoss

What's the minimum tooling set for a mill?

1. Buy the nicest vise you can afford that fits your mill.

2. Some way to hold 1/2" and smaller endmills. An R8 collet set is fine. ER is nice, but you don't necessarily need it up front. In fact, it may even be counterproductive. If you want to use something like the Tormach system, you'll wind up needing different ER chucks than ones with R8 shanks. Also, will you want a power drawbar? Two paths to follow. Build one like Hoss and you just need the R8 collets. Build one from an impact wrench like mine, and it's set up for R8. I'm not sure I'd bother with an impact wrench on a smallish mill. One like Hoss made is a lot simpler and cheaper.

3. Some end mills. 1/2", 1/4", and perhaps 1/8" would be good starts. Are you cutting aluminum or steel? Aluminum wants 2 or 3 flute, steel wants 4 flute. Buy some decent quality US made cutters on sale. Don't bother buying an import set with a lot of sizes. Buy more than one of each--you will break or dull them!

4. Indicol is a good idea, I use mine a lot. You'll need an indicator for that. I can't speak to cheap indicators. Nice indicators are expensive. I use Interapid. Brown & Sharpe Besttest are also nice.

5. You need a set of parallels for the vise.

6. You will want an edgefinder pretty soon to help zero your mill (I am assuming in all of this you are going for CNC!). I like the electronic LED variety. Got my Fowler for $24 somewhere.

7. You may want a Z-axis presetter. See the bottom of this page for why:

http://www.cnccookbook.com/CCMillTipsTechniques.htm

8. You'll want a drill chuck. I like keyless. Lathemaster sells them at reasonable prices and they are well made. Think carefully about the shank. If you're going to go for a tooling system (ala Tormach) or a powered drawbar (ala Hoss) you don't want the R8 shank. You want a staight shank.

9. Where there are drill chucks there must be drill bits. I like screw machine length as they are more rigid. I almost never use my regular length bits any more.

10. You'll need a spotting drill or two unless you have a lathe and want to "borrow" center drills. They're not the right thing, but they will do.

11. Digital calipers? 0-1" Mic? Not sure what other tooling you may have, but basic measuring tools are important.

That oughta do you for quite a while. I'm a tool packrat, so it was hard to drag a short list out of me. Maybe you don't think that was so short, but it feels really short to me!

Cheers,

BW

I agree with everything Bob said, except I'd add a cheap fly cutter set for surfacing and finishing. When you're ready to move from beginner mistakes to more sophisticated mistakes, you can get an insert face mill or some such.

Also, if you are trying to pinch a few pennies, I think it's often ok to get a cheaper vise. A $50 3" screwless vise can do a lot of very decent work. You can get a $80 Asian milling vise or spend $500 for a Kurt the same size. The difference is in the last .0001-.001" of squareness and durability. In my case, most of my work can tolerate a lot more than .001" of error, and my vise is the last source of error I need to worry about. Just don't try to get away with a drill press vise.

Great list Bob,

Thanks for posting it.

I've been eyeing this little electronic depth setting gizmo which is on sale for $48 at Enco (plus free shipping for orders over $100)

http://www.use-enco.com/CGI/INSRIT?PMAKA=308-0391&PMPXNO=12093229&PARTPG=INSRHI

That's cheaper than even the dial gizmo on Flee-Bay, which is listed Buy it now for $60 + $9 s+h.

Does anyone out there have experience with this electronic type depth setter?

Is Fowler good stuff?

Also, for your typical hobby type guy hoping to achieve +/- .005" some day, do you thing a .0005" incriment test indicator is sufficient? Or should pony up the extra cake for .0001" inciment (knowing that I'm already over the top on my whole project)

Being a Mech. Eng. by training, I'm a little fanatic about my measuring tools. I can't afford Browns and Sharp, Mitutoyo or Starrett, but I still try to get the right instrument whenever I can.

I just got one of the 5" China angle lock milling machine vices for $89. It's a far cry form a Kurt vise (we have a Kurt on our knee mill at work), but it's also a far cry above your typical drill press vise.

Also picked up a 12 x 18 grade A granite slab for $37!!!

Even though the Enco free shipping promo. says free "UPS" delivery and both the vise and the granite state "truck delivery", Enco shipped them both grattus!

What a windfall! as shipping usually pushes these kind of items over the top.

Great list Bob,

Thanks for posting it.

I've been eyeing this little electronic depth setting gizmo which is on sale for $48 at Enco (plus free shipping for orders over $100)

http://www.use-enco.com/CGI/INSRIT?PMAKA=308-0391&PMPXNO=12093229&PARTPG=INSRHI

That's cheaper than even the dial gizmo on Flee-Bay, which is listed Buy it now for $60 + $9 s+h.

Does anyone out there have experience with this electronic type depth setter?

Is Fowler good stuff?

Also, for your typical hobby type guy hoping to achieve +/- .005" some day, do you thing a .0005" incriment test indicator is sufficient? Or should pony up the extra cake for .0001" inciment (knowing that I'm already over the top on my whole project)

Being a Mech. Eng. by training, I'm a little fanatic about my measuring tools. I can't afford Browns and Sharp, Mitutoyo or Starrett, but I still try to get the right instrument whenever I can.

I just got one of the 5" China angle lock milling machine vices for $89. It's a far cry form a Kurt vise (we have a Kurt on our knee mill at work), but it's also a far cry above your typical drill press vise.

Also picked up a 12 x 18 grade A granite slab for $37!!!

Even though the Enco free shipping promo. says free "UPS" delivery and both the vise and the granite state "truck delivery", Enco shipped them both grattus!

What a windfall! as shipping usually pushes these kind of items over the top.

Is your machine CNC'd? If so, all you need is a small piece of PCB material, available for a few dollars from any decent electronics supply place. Solder a wire to one side, and run that to an input on your BOB, and configure it as the "Probe" input in Mach. Then use Mach to do an automated "touch" on it, and set the offset for you. I can post the necessary macro.

Regards,
Ray L.

Wow, lot of responses! I think I'm set on which way to go for my first baby step. I'll use R8 collets on the assumption that I'll do Hoss' power draw bar one day, I think he had a video on ATC too, real cool.

Still unsure of the Indicol size, I guess it can wait til after the mill gets here.

Speaking of endmills, so how do you guys do a taper or a beveled edge? I've seen the dovetailed ones, I guess there must be one that is reverse of that.

Wow, lot of responses! I think I'm set on which way to go for my first baby step. I'll use R8 collets on the assumption that I'll do Hoss' power draw bar one day, I think he had a video on ATC too, real cool.

Still unsure of the Indicol size, I guess it can wait til after the mill gets here.

Speaking of endmills, so how do you guys do a taper or a beveled edge? I've seen the dovetailed ones, I guess there must be one that is reverse of that.

If you are talking 45deg, there are a couple tools, either specialized chamfer mills, or the "mill-drill" like a regular end mill, but with a 90deg point. There are other angles available, but they are generally less common. There are much smaller taper angle mills available too, for making molds with tapered sides.

yea you could use special shaped cutters, or you could draw it up in cad, and have the machine cut it in 3d, this way you can have bull nose, or pretty much any other shape you can draw....

Is your machine CNC'd? If so, all you need is a small piece of PCB material, available for a few dollars from any decent electronics supply place. Solder a wire to one side, and run that to an input on your BOB, and configure it as the "Probe" input in Mach. Then use Mach to do an automated "touch" on it, and set the offset for you. I can post the necessary macro.

Regards,
Ray L.

Please post the macro. Thanks Ray.

Rick

yes please do, cause i desperately need to do this.. my current method of setting tool heights is painful, slow, and not real accurate.

Is your machine CNC'd? If so, all you need is a small piece of PCB material, available for a few dollars from any decent electronics supply place. Solder a wire to one side, and run that to an input on your BOB, and configure it as the "Probe" input in Mach. Then use Mach to do an automated "touch" on it, and set the offset for you. I can post the necessary macro.

This is exactly the kind of automated touch off I'd like to have....

It's exactly the kind of touch off that I've seen in use on a Multi-CAM router that we're evaluating for purchase at work.

But....... will I be able to wire up the input for the touch off through my little G540? Possibly wire it in series with the limit/home switches????

Please post the macro. Thanks Ray.

Rick

Code below. Go to Operator->EditButtonScript, then click on the AutoToolZero button. Cut and paste this code in place of the stub that's there now. You'll want to edit the first couple of variable definitions, to set the actual thickness of your touchplate, the maximum distance you want it to probe, and the speed at which it will probe.

I also found it useful to add an LED next to the AutoToolZero button that shows the state of the Probe input, so you can test the touch plate by touching to the table to make sure it's working before running the macro.

'Tool Zero Setting Macro

' Change the following three lines to suit your machine
PlateThickness =0.5100 ' Thickness of touch plate
RetractClearance = 0.100 ' Clearance above touch plate to retract to
ProbeFeed = 5 ' Feedrate to use for probing

' Define some constants
ZDRO = 2 ' Z Axis DRO
AbsoluteModeLED = 48 ' Absolute Coordinate Mode LED
IncrementalModeLED = 49 ' Incremental Coordinate Mode LED
FeedrateDRO = 818 ' OEM code for feedrate DRO
ProbeLED = 825 ' OEM code for probe input LED
ZTouchDRO = 2002 ' OEM code for DRO that holds Z touch position

' Do nothing if probe is already grounded
If GetOemLed(ProbeLED) = 0 Then

' Wait a few seconds for user to get touchplate in place
Code "G4 P2"

' Save current feedrate
CurrentFeed = GetOemDRO(FeedrateDRO)

' Save current coordinate mode
AbsMode = GetOemLED(AbsoluteModeLED)

' Set absolute coordinate mode
Code "G90"

' Zero Z DRO
Call SetDro (ZDRO, 0.0000)

' Pause for DRO to update
Code "G4 P0.5"

' Do the touch move
Code "G31 Z-0.5 F" & ProbeFeed

' Wait for it to complete
While IsMoving()
Wend

' Delay a bit for ???
Code "G4 P0.25"

' Get the Z position where probe input triggered
ZProbePos = GetVar(ZTouchDRO)

' Go back to touch position (G31 backs off after touch)
Code "G0 Z" & ZProbePos

' Wait for it to complete
While IsMoving ()
Wend

' Set Z DRO to touch plate thickness
Call SetDro (ZDRO, PlateThickness)

' Pause for DRO to update
'Code "G4 P0.5"

' Retract Z to SafeZ, if enabled, else to RetractClearance above plate
If(IsSafeZ() = 1) Then
SafeZ = GetSafeZ
If SafeZ > PlateThickness Then
GotoSafeZ()
End If
Else
RetractHeight = PlateThickness + RetractClearance
Code "G0 Z" & RetractHeight
End If

' Tell user we're done
Code "(Z axis is now zeroed)"

' Reset feedrate to original value
Code "F" & CurrentFeed

' Reset coordinate mode to original value
If AbsMode = 0 Then
Code "G91"
End If
Else
Code "(Z-Plate is grounded, check connection and try again)"
End If

Exit Sub

This has been done before by Greolt and others with simpler code.
Check out the thread Another Aussie Auto Tool Zero Setter. (http://www.cnczone.com/forums/showthread.php?t=36099)
Erniebro's XYZ Probe modification (http://www.cnczone.com/forums/showthread.php?t=56079) added more functionality to it and you can see the video
and download the codes and screensets.

yea you could use special shaped cutters, or you could draw it up in cad, and have the machine cut it in 3d, this way you can have bull nose, or pretty much any other shape you can draw....

I know nothing about CNC! Heh. This has always confused me , say you were making an emblem with nice beveled edges, wouldn't you have to change cutters to do certain finishes? Or does CNC extrapolate between 2 points and creates the bevel for you? Kinda like adjacent cells on fuel injection maps, the better the resolution, the smoother the extrapolation between points/cells?

Hey you guys, stop jacking my thread! Just kidding:-)
Whatever this code is, it's alien to me...but I'm saving it anyway!

I know nothing about CNC! Heh. This has always confused me , say you were making an emblem with nice beveled edges, wouldn't you have to change cutters to do certain finishes? Or does CNC extrapolate between 2 points and creates the bevel for you? Kinda like adjacent cells on fuel injection maps, the better the resolution, the smoother the extrapolation between points/cells?

Toolpath generation is generally handled by CAM software, so to place a bevel on something would depend on how your CAM software handles things and what tool you are using.
You can simply run a bevel cutting cutter around the perimeter, if you like the angle of the cutter and it will fit in the design. This would be the quickest way.
If you want something very specific you can "surface" the part by using a ball nosed mill to cut what you want. This will be subject to it's own issues as it will take much longer, and will have a resolution which is affected by the step over chosen to produce the tool path. Like breaking curves into tiny pieces of straight lines.
Both methods have their ups and downs, and both can achieve good results.

i dont know how well you can see the scallops around the edges, but they were cut with a 1/16th ballnose....

http://www.jpcustomcrafts.com/cnc%20machining/cnc_machining_door_plate.gif

That's sweet. So, for making something like that in the picture, a ball nose for the scallops. I see some very narrow angles in there, like the "N" and the "M". I'm assuming small diameter cutter. But for the rest of the flat parts, a bigger diameter? Or can all that be done with a ball nose?

Are hogging endmills any good?

That's sweet. So, for making something like that in the picture, a ball nose for the scallops. I see some very narrow angles in there, like the "N" and the "M". I'm assuming small diameter cutter. But for the rest of the flat parts, a bigger diameter? Or can all that be done with a ball nose?

Are hogging endmills any good?

It is important to understand that that is a rendering, and NOT a cut part. When you actually cut a part you are limited by the actual radius of the cutter. This will limit the amount of detail you can resolve with that cutter.
It's very tempting to think that if you can draw it you can cut it, and todays CAM packages make it seem this way too. Truth of the matter is when you are working with complex things like this you must always take how you are going to use your tools into account while designing a part, otherwise you will be disappointed as your actual results won't match what was drawn. These are the kinds of things that come with experience too, being able to look at a part and tell how and with what to cut it.
Do you mean roughing end mills? Yes, roughing end mills are good when you want to get rid of a lot of stock quickly and don't really care what the side of the cut looks like.
Although you didn't ask, it's important as well that you try and use the shortest reasonable cut length for a given application. Long length end mils are prone to chatter and whip in the end. Just because they make a 2" LOC 1/4" diameter end mill doesn't mean it's a great idea. It will have some very specific applications, but it won't be anywhere near as useful as a standard, or even stub length tool.

absolutely right, that is just a rendering, but when i cut that, i used a 1/32 endmill, and from more than about 2 feet away you couldnt tell that the sharp corners werent sharp.

Yes i used a 1/4 endmill to move most of the material, then "rest machined" the lettering with a 1/8 and then 1/32.

just for reference, here is a pic of one of the very first things i ever cut...

http://www.jpcustomcrafts.com/images/busters_pimp_palace.jpg

I didnt get it perfect, you can see where i used a 1/8 endmill to profile the letters after the major area was cut, and i didnt have my z height quite right... and theres several other things wrong with it, but like i said, that was one of the very first things i cut, and i've learned lots by just getting out there and making things like this, seeing what i like, and what i dont, and changing the way i do things to make it all stuff i like and none that i dont....

Yes, I understand it's a rendering, but thanks for reminding me. What I was mainly interested in was the number of tooling changes, etc. I guess that all comes with experience.

I'm assuming cut length is the length of the tool, or how much it's sticking out from the collet, etc? I've read that shorter is more rigid.

project5k, very cool for a first cut. Naturally, it's CNC right?

project5k, very cool for a first cut. Naturally, it's CNC right?

If he did that by hand I'd want to go and shake it. :) (disclaimer for the old-timers - I am not saying that it couldn't be done but the time inolved [assuming a reasonable hourly rate] in setup and the specialized tooling would cost almost as much as at least a basic CNC conversion).

Tool catalogs will usually list depth of cut and overall length. DOC is the maximum depth the tool can cut at, and realistically the shortest amount you should let stick out of the collet (clamping the flutes should be avoided), the overall length includes the DOC and you can decide how much further to let it hang out in relation to the amount held within the collet. Like stated earlier the more that hangs out the more it can (and will) flex and whip and on tiny mills (like a 1/16" say) they don't like to flex... Using a stub bit and clamping close to the step to the flutes was the solution on my Redwings logo engraving. I broke half a dozen normal bits (albeit ebay cheapo estate sale lots) before buying stub bits and running the remainder (75% of the job) on a single bit. You can see pics in my gallery in the website below. All of the advice these guys have given sounds really good.

I use R8 and use the largest bit I can (usually a 1/2" 2FL normal length or the 1/2" rougher) to remove the bulk of the stock then step down to smaller bits to get the detail needed. Tool changes can be a pain to get repeatable Z offsets - it really seems to be an art without the expense of specialized tooling - hence the use of taper holders on the big CNC machines. They're expensive but they are effective.

Greg

Thanks for the info Greg. That engraving is sooo cool! I can't wait to do the CNC conversion.

And yeah, I assumed project5k did that with CNC, but since he said it was one of his first cuts, I thought I'd ask.

Seems that I will need a boring bar to machine my own motor mounts.

But once the mill is up and running w/ CNC, I'm guessing the boring bar will no longer be needed.

Am I correct?

or am I missing something?

Seems that I will need a boring bar to machine my own motor mounts.

But once the mill is up and running w/ CNC, I'm guessing the boring bar will no longer be needed.

Am I correct?

or am I missing something?


Matt,

You'l probably still use the boring head (you'll need a boring bar also, to go IN the boring head...) from time to time, when you need a VERY precisely round hole.

Regards,
Ray L.

Ditto on HimyKabibble's post - I've used my boring head several times since CNC'ing. It leaves a much better finish than an interpolated helical milled hole and is much more precise - bearing pockets, close fit matings, etc.

ok, this is gonna be bad, so go easy on me... i keep hearing the term boring bar, and boring head... can someone please explain to me exactly what this is, and how to use it? I'm guessing that its for "drilling" or boring a hole larger than you have drill bits for.

so that would mean that it cuts the entire diameter of the hole or pocket. Ok so then am i to understand that a fly cutter dosent cut in the middle, and only cuts on the set outter perimeter?

Pictures if at all possible, makes it much easer for me to understand

ok, this is gonna be bad, so go easy on me... i keep hearing the term boring bar, and boring head... can someone please explain to me exactly what this is, and how to use it? I'm guessing that its for "drilling" or boring a hole larger than you have drill bits for.

so that would mean that it cuts the entire diameter of the hole or pocket. Ok so then am i to understand that a fly cutter dosent cut in the middle, and only cuts on the set outter perimeter?

Pictures if at all possible, makes it much easer for me to understand

a boring bar is in some ways similar in concept to a fly cutter. its a single point cutter (sometimes fixed, sometimes adjustable) that basically acts as a reverse lathe, spinning the tool and milling the final diameter of a hole.

it is not a replacement for a drill - it will not start a hole. it is only used to make a final pass to get a perfectly precise straight and round hole. the adjustable kind are good for doing arbitrary diameters without needing dozens of fixed diameters. like flycutters, you can often make your own from bar stock and lathe tooling fairly easily if you needed something special - or were just bored :)

http://littlemachineshop.com/Products/Images/480/480.1246.jpg

heres a fixed set. note these are also used in lathe tailstocks.


a boring head can take those fixed bars and "slide" them like a flycutter to make very precise passes to a final hole diameter. it also allows you to use one tool to get many larger hole sizes.

http://www.finelinehair.com/home/R8_boring_head_small.jpg

ah ha! ok, so i'd still need to make my "starter hole" to the final depth, but then i can enlarge it to the outside diameter of my bearing or whatever and have it come out more precise than doing it with just the cnc and dealing with the backlash of changing directions on the x and y axis... ok, cool!

So I have a question....

If I need to make a 15/16" hole for my ballnut holders, I would need to drill a hole that is about 13/16", then use the boring head and boring bar to finish them to final dia. right?

So what do I use to drill the initial hole? A 13/16" HSS drill bit? A drill mill?

Thanks!

-Caleb105-

I think what you might be meaning is that your ballnut mount hole needs to be machined. That is usually a boring and then a threading operation. You can buy a tap for that thread but I just did it on my lathe. Is that what you are asking. If not then yes a boring head will easily make a precise hole for the bearings or whatever as long as you are careful and remember to only move the adjustment of the boring head in one direction and keep the setscrews kinda snug to take out any backlash in the head. Then as you get closer to the final dimension make sure you take light passes and I usually go down with the head again after the cutting pass to make sure the spring in the toolbit is taken out and the cut is exactly what you dialed in. Once you have one of these very necessary tools you will understand what I am talking about.... good luck man...peace

Pete,

Exactly.....I already bought the 15/16" x 16 tap....I just need to figure out how to make the hole.

-Caleb105-

So I have a question....

If I need to make a 15/16" hole for my ballnut holders, I would need to drill a hole that is about 13/16", then use the boring head and boring bar to finish them to final dia. right?

So what do I use to drill the initial hole? A 13/16" HSS drill bit? A drill mill?

Thanks!

-Caleb105-

that would be the way to do it yes. drill the hole with a drill bit or an end mill or really anything else than can make the undersized hole. then bore it in one or more passes to final diametre.

if the machine has no play or backlash and the hole isnt deep, you can get away with circular interpolation. some benchtop machines can make circles happily to .001" roundness which is fine for many things. for bearing races and other things that need better precision and concentricity, the boring bar is much better. its also obviously better if the machine cant make an accurate circle or the hole is very deep and an end mill or drill bit would deflect too much resulting in tapered or skewed holes.

reaming is an alternative to boring especially for long precision holes, but it usually requires a fixed precisely sized tool which gets expensive if you need many diametres.

Pete,

Exactly.....I already bought the 15/16" x 16 tap....I just need to figure out how to make the hole.

-Caleb105-

Hole is .875", and you can use a silver and demming drill to do it in one shot if you have one. If you have access to a CNC mill, you can just as easily use that to circular interpolate the hole. Boring isn't needed here for precision, only if you have no other way to get the hole that big.
I used the S/D drill, and it was simple to tap at this size. If you bore a 15/16th hole, you won't get any threads.

That is what I figured... For me the way I do it usually is to measure the minor diameter of the bolt or thread that you intend to internally thread for and then bore to that number. Then the tap should go in without any problems. If you do not already have one, you might want to get a tap/drill chart. I got one from one of my tooling suppliers and it is plastic and mounts on the wall. It has basically every size of tap and it's corresponding drill size at a glance. I did however look at my tap drill chart and there is no listing for that tap size. I measured my ballnut that uses that size tap tho and I got .830" for a bore and then run the tap into it. Measure your ballnut at the inside of the thread diameter or the bottom of the grooves so to speak and bore to that size. Then your tap will make the threads from there. Otherwise call the guys you got that tap from and ask them the drill size... Good luck...peace

Hole is .875", and you can use a silver and demming drill to do it in one shot if you have one.

Scott,

Thanks for the info!

Will this drill bit work then:

http://www.use-enco.com/CGI/INSRIT?PMAKA=303-2256&PMPXNO=946332&PARTPG=INLMK32

-Caleb105-

Scott,

Thanks for the info!

Will this drill bit work then:

http://www.use-enco.com/CGI/INSRIT?PMAKA=303-2256&PMPXNO=946332&PARTPG=INLMK32

-Caleb105-

Eric, Scott is my last name ;) If you have a something to hold it sure, the shank is .875 on that. The reason I suggested the silver and demming is that they have a reduced shank, usually 1/2". S&D is a brand, but is commonly used to refer to the reduced shank style of drill.

That is what I figured... For me the way I do it usually is to measure the minor diameter of the bolt or thread that you intend to internally thread for and then bore to that number. Then the tap should go in without any problems. If you do not already have one, you might want to get a tap/drill chart. I got one from one of my tooling suppliers and it is plastic and mounts on the wall. It has basically every size of tap and it's corresponding drill size at a glance. I did however look at my tap drill chart and there is no listing for that tap size. I measured my ballnut that uses that size tap tho and I got .830" for a bore and then run the tap into it. Measure your ballnut at the inside of the thread diameter or the bottom of the grooves so to speak and bore to that size. Then your tap will make the threads from there. Otherwise call the guys you got that tap from and ask them the drill size... Good luck...peace
http://www.mcmaster.com/#2595a441/=v3baf
Recommended drill bit listed there. .875

Eric,

Thanks for the info.

What about this one:

http://www.use-enco.com/CGI/INSRIT?PMAKA=301-1056&PMPXNO=943816&PARTPG=INLMK32

ETA: I already got the tap, I just need the drill to make the hole.

-Caleb105-

Eric,

Thanks for the info.

What about this one:

http://www.use-enco.com/CGI/INSRIT?PMAKA=301-1056&PMPXNO=943816&PARTPG=INLMK32

ETA: I already got the tap, I just need the drill to make the hole.

-Caleb105-
Much more like it. Low RPM and plenty of coolant.

Piggy back question....

I'm selecting a boring bar set for use with my X3 mill....

could someone please comment on the merits of a threaded boring head on an R8 shank as shown in this link..
https://www.grizzly.com/products/G9322

opposed to boring head with an integral shank as illustrated here....
https://www.grizzly.com/products/H5679

Obviously, you can switch heads on the first.... but just how large of a boring head can be used given the power and rigidity of the X3 mill. Do you lose anything in the way of precision with the threaded head set up.

Also.... the diameter of the boring bars themselves is 1/2" on the first and 3/8" on the second. Is the X3 beefy enough to benefit form the rigidity of the 1/2" bars? Or are they just over kill.

Thanks in advance...

Matt

and another Q....

is .0005" resolution test indicator sufficient for hobby work on an X3?

I'm shooting for an over all tolerance of .005" on my projects. But I realize that every +/- I introduce will stack up.

Here's my targets and plans so far....

1. shooting to get my X & Y back lash down to .005" or less.
2. will run back lash comp in Mach 3
3. planning on micro stepping w/ 1/8 or 1/10 resolution
4. will be using a Chinese angle lock vise with ~.003" runout over 5" for as much of my work holding as possible.

I don't want to add error in every set up with a course test indicator.

But don't want to polish the cannon ball when the rest of my equipment can't take advantage of it.

My goal is to match the quality level of my components to get an overall set up that will hold .005"

and another Q....

is .0005" resolution test indicator sufficient for hobby work on an X3?

I'm shooting for an over all tolerance of .005" on my projects. But I realize that every +/- I introduce will stack up.

Here's my targets and plans so far....

1. shooting to get my X & Y back lash down to .005" or less.
2. will run back lash comp in Mach 3
3. planning on micro stepping w/ 1/8 or 1/10 resolution
4. will be using a Chinese angle lock vise with ~.003" runout over 5" for as much of my work holding as possible.

I don't want to add error in every set up with a course test indicator.

But don't want to polish the cannon ball when the rest of my equipment can't take advantage of it.

My goal is to match the quality level of my components to get an overall set up that will hold .005"

Matt,

Let me get this straight:

0.005" backlash
0.003" vise runout
probably +/-0.004"/foot lead error in your screws

And you're hoping for 0.005" overall accuracy? Consistently achieving 0.005" accuracy is not gonna happen.

I wouldn't be concerned about the resolution of the indicator. Buy a good (name brand) one, even if it's 0.001" graduations. They can easily be read to a few tenths, which is far better than you can really make use of.

Regards,
Ray L.

which is far better than you can really make use of.

that is what I suspected... thanks for the reply....

ok, this is gonna be bad, so go easy on me... i keep hearing the term boring bar, and boring head... can someone please explain to me exactly what this is, and how to use it? I'm guessing that its for "drilling" or boring a hole larger than you have drill bits for.

so that would mean that it cuts the entire diameter of the hole or pocket. Ok so then am i to understand that a fly cutter dosent cut in the middle, and only cuts on the set outter perimeter?

Pictures if at all possible, makes it much easer for me to understand

when my x3 was up and manual, the only thing i found the boring bar half useful was on plastic (polyethylene) and it scared me to try to use it on metal- i could see the column swaying back and forth maybe 1/4" (nuts)

Sorry to thread jack- but on this topic... Where can i get a 90 degree boring bar? if you guys get what i mean, so if you want to have a round recessed hole say for a bearing, all my boring bars are angled...

cheers

Scott,

Thanks for the info!

Will this drill bit work then:

http://www.use-enco.com/CGI/INSRIT?PMAKA=303-2256&PMPXNO=946332&PARTPG=INLMK32

-Caleb105-

i hate to double post, im not sure how small of a radius most boring bars can do but you could theoretically just drill with an ordinary 1/2" then use the boring bar and just turn the screw on it to make it larger after each pass till your at the perfect length.

Hope you don't mind me asking- how much did a tap that big cost? (nuts)

:D

Hope you don't mind me asking- how much did a tap that big cost? (nuts)

:D

$63

-Caleb105-

Matt did yuo ever pick a boring head out? I'm in the market for one now......just curious how it worked out for you?

Kalvin




Piggy back question....

I'm selecting a boring bar set for use with my X3 mill....

could someone please comment on the merits of a threaded boring head on an R8 shank as shown in this link..
https://www.grizzly.com/products/G9322

opposed to boring head with an integral shank as illustrated here....
https://www.grizzly.com/products/H5679

Obviously, you can switch heads on the first.... but just how large of a boring head can be used given the power and rigidity of the X3 mill. Do you lose anything in the way of precision with the threaded head set up.

Also.... the diameter of the boring bars themselves is 1/2" on the first and 3/8" on the second. Is the X3 beefy enough to benefit form the rigidity of the 1/2" bars? Or are they just over kill.

Thanks in advance...

Matt

Matt did yuo ever pick a boring head out? I'm in the market for one now......just curious how it worked out for you?

Kalvin

Hey there kalvin!
i got this one:
http://cgi.ebay.com/R8-Shank-3-Boring-Head-Carbide-Tipped-Boring-Bars_W0QQitemZ350179294644QQihZ022QQcategoryZ58251QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem
(i think)
and its too big for the x3. if i run it over very low rpm's i can see my column shaking around... (nuts) however i needed to cut 2-3" holes. if you are not cutting over 2" holes i would recommend a 2" one for the x3.

Also, my biggest complaint with a boring bar is in the picture attached. it makes sense that all the tooling has that tip, (so it can cut lol), however i wish i had a flat boring bar (see right side), IMO it would make it a lot more useful. if you find this please lmk :)

cheers

Hey there kalvin!
i got this one:
http://cgi.ebay.com/R8-Shank-3-Boring-Head-Carbide-Tipped-Boring-Bars_W0QQitemZ350179294644QQihZ022QQcategoryZ58251QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem
(i think)
and its too big for the x3. if i run it over very low rpm's i can see my column shaking around... (nuts) however i needed to cut 2-3" holes. if you are not cutting over 2" holes i would recommend a 2" one for the x3.

Also, my biggest complaint with a boring bar is in the picture attached. it makes sense that all the tooling has that tip, (so it can cut lol), however i wish i had a flat boring bar (see right side), IMO it would make it a lot more useful. if you find this please lmk :)

cheers
There exist flat bottom boring bars, but you have to understand that for the intended application a tool that chatters horribly at the bottom of a hole (the one you have drawn with a YES) next to it is not a good idea. It's like a record, the outside spins faster than the inside. The tool you show rubs the whole way across, not a great idea.

Hi Teyber.

You can purchase or grind boring bars like you show, but I'm not sure that's really what you should be using with that boring head. I assume you're trying to surface a flat bottom in your hole that way?

It's going to be really slow to work your way out from a tiny hole to 2 or 3" with a boring head. Interpolate the hole with an endmill and save the boring head only for when you need a lot of accuracy on the hole. Many holes won't need it at all, and in particular they won't need the bottom of hole cut accurately, just the sides.

Another thing is quality of boring bars. The ones that come with the heads usually stink. Boring bars are so finicky, a good one really makes a difference. You can purchase carbide inserted or brazed carbide. Either works, just consider finding a nicer one if you use the boring head a lot. There are plenty on eBay. If you see a Circle Boring Bar or a Micro100, those are two great brands that usually don't cost much.

RE your X3 moving around with that boring head, is that just when cutting? I'd have thought it was plenty rigid enough to take the weight swinging around. Make sure you don't run that boring head too fast in the spindle. For a 3" hole in aluminum--1000 rpm. Steel--half that or less.

Cheers,

BW

RE your X3 moving around with that boring head, is that just when cutting? I'd have thought it was plenty rigid enough to take the weight swinging around. Make sure you don't run that boring head too fast in the spindle. For a 3" hole in aluminum--1000 rpm. Steel--half that or less.

Cheers,

BW

if its wobbling just from spinning, i think the think needs to be balanced somehow. boring heads are not normally balancable are they since they arent meant to spin very fast?

I used that same head for my X3 conversion and had no problems. When you calculate the RPM & feed based on generic SFM and chipload recommendations you don't run very fast once you get outside of the 1/2" or whatever diameter hole you start with.

I hardly use mine now that I am CNC'd and when I do it's the final pass on a hole that needs a close tolerance or consistent surface finish which boring heads do wonderfully. They're only meant to take a couple 1/1000ths off each adjustment so taking that final .001 in a bore is hardly any pressure and leaves a nice smooth finish especially when fed at a consistent speed in and out.

Greg

sorry not trying to thread jack- i mean just as a final pass use that flat thing. i don't have a lathe and often i find i need to have a flat "ridge" for another part to sit on, and with the boring bar labeled "1" it is not 90 degrees obviously which poses problems in some of my parts. I definately realize you would not want to remove a bulk of material this way :D

once my cnc is up i bet ill end up selling my boring bar.

cheers

sorry not trying to thread jack- i mean just as a final pass use that flat thing. i don't have a lathe and often i find i need to have a flat "ridge" for another part to sit on, and with the boring bar labeled "1" it is not 90 degrees obviously which poses problems in some of my parts. I definately realize you would not want to remove a bulk of material this way :D

once my cnc is up i bet ill end up selling my boring bar.

cheers

If you use a boring head as it's intended to be used, you will end up with a flat bottomed bore regardless of the shape of the tool. It's only meant for taking a few thou on each pass, to do final sizing and finishing on holes. So, worst case you'll end up with a "shelf" on the bottom of the hole made up of very small concentric ridges, each no more than a few thou tall, and a few thou wide. If you're making a bearing recess, use CNC or a rotary table with an endmill to get the hole within perhaps 10 thou of final size, then the boring head to do the final sizing. You might end up with a small lip (if you don't go deep enough), or a small recess (if you go too deep) around the perimeter at the very bottom of the hole, but neither will matter since bearings always have bevelled or rounded corners on the outer races. In either case, the shape of the tool used in the boring head will have no significant effect on the shape of the hole you end out with.

If you're using a boring head to turn a 1/2" hole into a 3" hole, you're really not using it for what it was designed for.

Regards,
Ray L.

sorry not trying to thread jack- i mean just as a final pass use that flat thing. i don't have a lathe and often i find i need to have a flat "ridge" for another part to sit on, and with the boring bar labeled "1" it is not 90 degrees obviously which poses problems in some of my parts. I definately realize you would not want to remove a bulk of material this way :D

once my cnc is up i bet ill end up selling my boring bar.

cheers
But the 90 degree bar will wind up chattering like crazy at the bottom and not doing what you want either. If it catches wrong you can wind up chewing up the bore as well.
Selling your boring bar after you finish your CNC conversion isn't a great idea either, as you still can get a more precise bore with the boring head than you will be able to get with CNC. If you want bearing journals to fit right, you'll want a boring head.
I run a Hurco VMC at work, ground screws and good servos. We still have a boring head for it. We don't have a whole lot of use for it, but when you need it, you need it.