Hi,

I'm building a CNC machine, for fun (yes im only 15, HS student), I have these slides and Steppers (880oz-in) , with a five axis driver and output buffer for higher amperage.

Steppers: http://www.orientalmotor.co.jp/cgi-bin/WebObjects/UPOMStep.woa/wa/F3?typeNameId=1&modelName=PK299%2D02BA&seriesId=2PK&frameSize=85

Slides: http://igus.bdol.com/show_hts.asp Model: HTS-30-AWM

I want to machine steel, other metal's, plastic, and wood!!

But I dont know if the steppers can handle the table, and the steel machining, I dont mind if it moves slow, I just want 2 machine metal (steel, brass, an what not!!)

My setup is moving table (like a router X-moving-table, Z mounted on Y), 54" by 54", so I would like some feedback on what I can do, other options, about the steppers and gear-boxes, and what ever else u can think of!! I havent spent a penny on this equipment, all donations! So im not buying anything!!!

what is your budget?

can't really help until we know that :)

With money you can do anything. but im guessing you dont have alot? as i was broke when i was 15 :P just the software might be to much for you for anything but a 2axis router system.

talking 200 for the cheapest 3axis software i know of. then maybe run it with turbocnc but that is 60 now i think. really be nice to run it on mach2/3(150)


do you have access to software in your school? or are you only thinking 2axis ? doing somthing like dxf cad pictures to gcode.

I CAN say for sure that those unsupported bars on the slides will be inadequate for rigidity when working metals.

I havent built this machine yet, I'm just asking for idea's, but I want 2 know about how many (oz-in) of torque i need 2 machine steel. Is the 880oz-in enough?

I have the software, and hardware interface (5-Axis), I'm trying to build the machine now, software is later, I have a shopbot controller, rebuffered for high amperage output up to 15Amps per Stepper/Axis (48v power-supply).

Thanx

-Allen

Yes, it's enough. You have access to a machine shop? What are you making this machine out of?

Eric

hmmmm ok then.

Im impressed, at 15 I had just bought my mini mill and learned how to machine, it sounds like your a little ahead?
It also sounds like you have some funding for this? How big are you looking to make this machine?
Have you considered getting a mill/drill and converting that instead. It may make life a little easier, You will also be able to use those stepper motors.

Are you actually thinking about building a 5 axis machine? If so, there are ways you could actually convert a mill/drill into a 5 axis machine. A squair column mill would be needed and access to lots of equiptment Im sure.

you may want to take a look at this site, the design for 5 axis mill that Im thinking of is how he does his mill. rotary table and rotary B axis head.
http://www.rainnea.com/cnc_5axisMill.htm

Jon

I havent decided yet (dont know which is better), Aluminum (6061 or 7075) or Steel. But on the steppers, should I put a gear-box? For more torque, dont mind for slow machining!! I have another question about the router motor, for machining steel, or (metal in general), how many HP motor do I need? (7.5 or 10HP?) and or High Frequency?

7075 is better than 6061 but considerably more expensive. You will also want one that is quite hard such as T6 as the softer tempers are easily scratcted and damaged. Most of the machines i've seen have the stepper motors connected directly to the ball screw but it all depends on which ball screw you are using, the motors you've got, how fast you want it to go and how much torque etc. 7.5HP motor ?! or 10?!!?! both sound a little high to me. I think you'll find only the big bridgeport VMC type machines will use a spindle motor that big. 1hp = 750watts, 10 x 750 = 7500, 7.5kw = 31.25 amps @ 240v or 65amps @ 115v. If you want to use a motor that size you will really need to think about 3 phase. For reference, my 360mm x 120mm x 200mm mill which weighs about 300kg and will cut most metals quite happily only has a 0.8kw spindle motor.

Even if you're building a metal mill, you don't need that much HP. The big thing to remember is that metal doesn't require a lot of RPM to cut. Sometimes less speed and more torque is the right answer.

The Sherline and Taig mills are quite capable of working with aluminum. I have a friend who does it all the time. The Sherline mills have a 1/3 HP motor that runs between 70 and 2800 RPM using an electronic speed control.

I havent decided yet (dont know which is better), Aluminum (6061 or 7075) or Steel. But on the steppers, should I put a gear-box? For more torque, dont mind for slow machining!! I have another question about the router motor, for machining steel, or (metal in general), how many HP motor do I need? (7.5 or 10HP?) and or High Frequency?

Well I dont have 3-phase available, but i have 100-Amps@240V sub-panel in garage (in-house). I want to machine steel at 2-Inches/sec, Can you guy's possibly tell me some company where they have spindles for machining metal (steel), but I'm going to machine other materials as well like plastic and wood! So it has to work for almost everything!!

I have AIM, if you want to chat, My SN is: ProDJAllen007

Thanks everyone!!

ok, now you just have crazy ideas, you want to machine steel at 120ipm, good luck bud.

Jon

Metalcncing,
If you really want to mill steel, you should shop around for a used cnc milling machine, or a manual mill that you will convert to cnc yourself. It'll give you hours and hours of entertainment :D

I've suggested many times that there is lots of good value in the used machine market, and that's where you should start. Because you are yet inexperienced, its impossible for you to know how to build a machine that is much good, so put the past experience of machine builders to use, and learn about metal cutting on a real mill before you play around building a toy.

Machines for wood cutting is a different matter, and you have quite a bit more leeway in what will get you by.

Well what can I do with what I have? 880oz-in Steppers and the HTS-30 Tables from Igus. Can I do about 1-Inch in about 3 or 4 Seconds? I really dont know, especially last year seeing the crazy machines at the Westec Show!!! Now those were CNC's, these CNC's im seeing on websites look like little toys!!

With those steppers you can automate (CNC) a good used mill or lathe. We are talking the "toys" being $1000 give or take, and the Big CNC machines being in over $50,000 easily and used. Hmmmm a bridgeport is starting to sound good...used.

I suggest you do some serious reading on specifications of different machines.
You might be able to build one yourself that could possibly cut steel at 1" per minute with maybe very light cuts.....unless you have a large nest egg :)

I havent decided yet (dont know which is better), Aluminum (6061 or 7075) or Steel. But on the steppers, should I put a gear-box? For more torque, dont mind for slow machining!! I have another question about the router motor, for machining steel, or (metal in general), how many HP motor do I need? (7.5 or 10HP?) and or High Frequency?

A 10HP spindle will cost you about 10K by itself. 7.5HP not much less.

Very few home made machines can machine steel at all. What is your budget? If you can't answer that, nobody can help you.

Eric

Somthing that hasnt been mentioned yet is how much space youve got. You may be able to get an old CNC bridgeport interact 1 for under £1000 at auction but have you got somewhere to put it ?

From experience I can tell you that theese things always look a lot smaller when in a warehouse or aircraft hangar amongst other machines. Even my relatively small mill wouldnt fit through the shed door so we had to rip the front off!

http://www.ukrobotics.com/cnc/toobig.jpg

Whoa, can we step back a bit.....what x,y and z do you need?

We gather that you want to mill steel, wood and plastics, so that's a given.

You have some steppers which can be used, rails are dicey depending on your desired milling envelope (x,y & z).....we also need to know if you'll be using a face mill ....

Well what can I do with what I have? 880oz-in Steppers and the HTS-30 Tables from Igus. Can I do about 1-Inch in about 3 or 4 Seconds? I really dont know, especially last year seeing the crazy machines at the Westec Show!!! Now those were CNC's, these CNC's im seeing on websites look like little toys!!

Seach for cnc mill on ebay and snoop around. Here's a bargain to get you started. Lots of wires and stuff :( Like I said, it'll keep you entertained for hours ;)
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=58253&item=3860572397&rd=1

But really, maybe just look for a manual mill and get started with some simple cutting. Maybe you don't need an old cnc (and all its attendant headaches) right off the bat.

Hey UKRobotics, Do you have AIM (AOL), if you get a chance im me at ProDJAllen007, I have AIM!

Thanx

Man, there seems like a big wack of old Shizouka cnc's with Bandits or whatever on ebay today. These are real mills, and might have to be retrofitted right away, but are just so cheap......and an excellent starting point for the hobbyist. A bit heavy to handle, but you only think about that when its being lifted, after that, you're glad for every pound :D

Many of them are equipped with Quickdraw toolchangers, too. These are quite the mechanism in and of themselves. I believe you can still get service for those from Avanti Corporation in Bozeman, Montana. I have one in operation in my shop (but, I'm much more enthralled with my Haas VF3 of course :D )

Ok, Now I have an 11HP Spindle-motor 3/4". A 15HP VFD from ACTech, same slides and steppers. What can I possibly do with this? (What type of material's can I machine??) Z mounted on Y configuration, not moving, X-axis moving table in/out from under the Y, Z mounted Axis's.

Those PK299 steppers you have are real top shelf stuff. A perfect match for geckos, and with thiem you could move just about anything. For bench sized mills a real overkill on X and Y. Would be a good match top the table ofa bridgeport. With a belt reduction could probably even drive the knee if you counter balance it.

I want to build a CNC from scratch, just like this:

http://haascnc.com/VMC_MODEL_GANTRY.asp#gantry

Using the PK299 steppers, 3 gearbox's one for each axis on the steppers, 11HP router, 15HP drive, and I have a 5-Axis stepper driver board, and many slides and rail's from Igus, here are the pieces i have from them:
2x- TKHF-30-2-1365 (about 50in travel) X-Axis Support (DryLin T)

2x- HTS- (30mm Shafting) and the travel for both should be 1220mm. (X,Y)

1x- HTS- (30mm Shafting) and the travel should be 430mm. (Z)

Hu....I checked and didn't find any Shizouka VMCs.

What is the criteria when building your own CNC that must cut anything like metal/steel and you want to build everything from scratch? I am in the middle of building one using 3" x 3" x 0.25" mild steel square tubing. The CNC frame measures 72"L x 53"W x 46" H. I already got the entire frame built and it is pretty sturdy since it does not move or moves very little when I shake it hard (see pics). I also have a Hitachi M12V Router (3-1/4 HP), Tormach.com Nema34 640 OZ-IN stepper motors, Gecko drives, and etc. Can someone provide some info on how well my setup will work for milling steel/metal/wood/etc?

Thanks,

one quick observation......when you have a load traversing the Yaxis, the gantry will undoubtedly flex (if not permanently warp) as the cutter tries to cut into the steel. Another quickie... because the mass is low the machine will experience huge amounts of vibration (when working in steel)

Well my table supports are 3/4" Steel, and the table itself is 1-1/2" Aluminum 6063-T651. And on the Y-Axis I have a combination of the 1-1/2" Aluminum and 3/4" Steel, I don’t think this would flex one bit, especially if im going to cut very slowly!!

I want to build a CNC from scratch, just like this:

http://haascnc.com/VMC_MODEL_GANTRY.asp#gantry

Using the PK299 steppers, 3 gearbox's one for each axis on the steppers, 11HP router, 15HP drive, and I have a 5-Axis stepper driver board, and many slides and rail's from Igus, here are the pieces i have from them:
2x- TKHF-30-2-1365 (about 50in travel) X-Axis Support (DryLin T)

2x- HTS- (30mm Shafting) and the travel for both should be 1220mm. (X,Y)

1x- HTS- (30mm Shafting) and the travel should be 430mm. (Z)

Dude; Did you check on the price for one of those machines? $79,900 to 111,000. Unless you have deep pockets, I don't think your going to get anything close to that. But good luck

Good effort! It won't cut steel. Aluminum will be ok. Keep up with any progress reports.

Eric

I think I would be able to cut/mill steel but at very slow feed rates, I have almost exactly the same parts they use on the Haas Machine which i had the link to, Well right now the only piece i am looking for is an Aluminum plate 60.5" by 70" by 1.50" 6061, 6063, or 7075-T651. I am located in CA, Could you guys please advise!! I couldnt find one place out of 30 that had it!!

Well, I havent been here in a while...my CNC is finally getting somewhere...I finally figured it out...I have a 72.00" by 60.50" by 1.50" 6061 Aluminum plate as my base, I'm using steel I-Beams (W8x36lb and W12x50lb) as my support for everything as legs and support for Y and Z Axis...I am going to use 170 In-Lb servo's @ 240-volts, and I have an 11HP CRP/Perske router with an intelligent drive. I have attached some pics of the items that I have and the cad drawings of my CNC...most people on this site are building cheap little CNC's for small applications, I want to be able to machine mild steel at the least!!....Please advise what else i should consider, or what else i should add... I have an unlimited budget...I'm making this machine to see if i can do it...not that i need it, well I do, but not for production, just minor projects...

Is anyone going to help me, by giving me additional help??!!

Thanks...

My advice is to first build your CNC mill in CAD. I personally use SolidWorks. Any problems should be worked out in CAD. Also, design changes can be done many times in CAD. The amount of CAD time you spend will be small in comparison to the time spent building the actual CNC mill. This is how I did my frame which I plan to use to cut mild steel. After posting my pics of my CNC frame, some observed that the gantry will flex/warp and the frame will vibrate alot. I cannot imagine this happening since I am using mild steel square tubing measuring 3" x 3" x 0.25". This is very strong and heavy stuff.

I dont know if those linear slides will hold up for that kind of machining. I think youll need some thk HSR/SHS style bearings and rails.

To cut steel, you need a low rpm spindle(300-2000rpm) and that spindle appears to be a high rpm spindle.

Jon

I think you're underestimating what it takes to cut mild steel. Those linear slides you've shown may hold up in aluminum, but you can be 99% sure that they'll have trouble with steel. The spindle issue is also a valid concern. If you don't have a low enough rpm in relation to your feedrate, you're going to work harden the steel as you attempt to cut.

I cringed as I read that you have an unlimited budget. If you do, why are you dumping money into a DIY gantry machine? Buy yourself a decent full size knee mill which has the mass and proper spindle for cutting what you want.

MetalCNCing....we probably can't help much....since we're only building cheap little machines....good luck..... (nuts)

looks like you are using igus rails. those rails won't even be able to support the weight of your big spindle, much less be any better than the "cheap little machines" everyone else is building on here. you have to consider the stiffness of the whole system. mounting weak rails that will bind under pressure to a massive stiff base won't do you any good. good luck, and be careful not to get so excited by your project that you insult the people who are helping you.

looks like a project that will end up in the scrap bin!

actually the igus slides can support 550-800 lbs depending on direction of movement, my spindle is only about 85 lbs.

my spindle is controlled via VFD and i am capable of speeds of 200-2500 with still keeping the torque of 11HP.

and also i am using 3/4" 12" by 8" I-beams for support, i designed the whole thing in auto-cad, and it seems pretty powerful

I think you need to do some simple calculations. There's a reason why a bridgeport is made up of thousands of pounds of Cast Iron and doesn't use plastic bearings - all for a 1-3hp spindle..

Your 11hp spindle even with a small endmill in steel could produce more load than your bearings can handle. The steppers you've selected, together with a gear reduction and presumably a leadscrew reduction can easily produce more than 800lbs force.

The previous posts are not trying to knock you down, just give a reality check.

I think you need to do some simple calculations. There's a reason why a bridgeport is made up of thousands of pounds of Cast Iron and doesn't use plastic bearings - all for a 1-3hp spindle..

Your 11hp spindle even with a small endmill in steel could produce more load than your bearings can handle. The steppers you've selected, together with a gear reduction and presumably a leadscrew reduction can easily produce more than 800lbs force.

The previous posts are not trying to knock you down, just give a reality check.

Good advice. I don't know much about cutting steel, but you can easily do some beam calculation checks on your unsupported round rails (or IGUS) and see how easily that they will flex. I'm sure that they can support the stated loads, but that doesn't mean that they will do it without flex. The flex will kill your application.

If you live close to a large city, I would recommend that you go to some machine distributors and look at their equipment. Ask alot of questions about why they feel their machine design is better than their competitors, etc. Get the literature. Take alot of notes.

Learn to do manual machine work, like Hu suggested. You will need to learn feed and speed calculations in order to design, program, and run your CNC anyways.

I have seen small Taig (inexpensive) machines cut steel, so it doesn't take an unlimited budget to do it. But increases in speed and size increase the complexity and costs exponentially.

my machine is over 12,000-lbs there is no movement of anything, and my longest Axis is the Y-Axis (yes the only unsupported rails, but i am going to put other supported rails next to it on both sides, so all it is doing is acting like a lead-screw, nothing else, weight and force is supported by the supported rails not by the igus slides) at 50" but the rails are 1-1/2" thick already, i thought it might have been over-kill, not under-estimated! those Haas machines look like they use the same sized rails.... (and there is an update to my steppers, i am tossing those, and going to use 350-IbIN servos on a 10:1 ratio gearbox for all axises)

MetalCNCing, I don't mean to come off as rude, but you need a reality check. Using those servos is not going to do any good, except possibly twist your leadscrews in half. I don't know if you made a typo, but any servos near that powerful don't belong on a DIY machine. My bridgeport is milling in the garage as we speak. It's 6000lbs, and uses 25lb servos to move everything around quite well.

If all the weight is in the base, it won't do much good. You need mass in your moving sections, or else you WILL have flex and skew.

I had engineers from boeing and engineers from Igus look at how much force i would need to move a 1000-Lb block of steel on the machine, using the Igus lead-screw. they told me about 2000-ft-lbs..... and for the moving sections which is the top and bottom portion combined is about 1500-pounds

Well, good luck in everything. 1900lb-in of torque from your 10:1 gearbox servos driving a 24mm ballscrew sounds like a great idea. Drylin plain slides should also have great rigidity for that machining of steel. Your custom designed servo controller and software should work nicely, be sure to post pictures of everything. After talking with you on aim, it's nice to know you have $150k of your parents money to spend on the project. An undertaking like this deserves no less then a custom made German spindle.

Good luck!

I have an unlimited budget..


Go buy a new Haas VF-3 and a phase converter, your 100 amp sub panel is plenty of juice.

Tool holders, taps, end mills, drills, vices, sub plate, edge finder, whatever else you want.

One copy of Onecnc mill expert :D

Done

Get a Haas SL-20 lathe and a bar feed while you are at it.

Why are you bothering to build a mill?

I told him to get a Mori Seki and Onecnc. Close enough :)

Hey why stop there. Go straight to your nearest Yasda dealer. Moris are for wimps. :D

I've been having fun for the past 1/2 hr thinking of what I would do with an unlimited budget assuming I had to keep my space available the same as it is now.

He could buy a Mori Seki, but obviously his machine is going to work way better than a mori ever could. just ask him.

http://kdcapital.com/itemphotos.cfm?Item=2983

Heres one, cheap too. Bet you can get two for twice the price if you order now.




What can I say Andrew, you have a more refined taste than me, no doubt. :D

I hope we both have Moris in our garage some day.

:cheers: Here's hoping that comes true, and we both end up with Mori's in our shops.

Heck, I'll take a beatup Haas with no controller if the santa of cnc is listening....

Ah, come on guys, lay of the poor young man... :stickpoke


BTW, can you get ME a copy of OneCNC while you're at it? :P

I use my machines to make money to spend on parts to help me make my cnc machines
When i see someone at 15 who can spend that much on stuff that is not fully researched and will most likely lose interest as soon as some big boobed girl walks by; with his parants money wasted on a pile of scrap; just makes me want to puke

Hey, a lot of us lose interest when a big boobed girl walks by. No harm in that, we can get back to it!

Kids have to dream. No harm in that either. Some of the dreamers turn out to be Michael Dell or Bill Gates.

BW

Fellas, fellas...I know how to aleviate all of this trouble with a 15 year old having disposable cash... it's sort of an excercise, mostly for recreation. MetalCNCing you are required to participate because with out you, the excercise just doesn't work.

Okay ready guys! MetalCNCing stand by...I'll give you your cue:

Let's go guys,

Okay lift your arms up be side you, put your left arm in front of you, while bringing your right arm down to your waste, you know the position the handle on the tea pot...MetalCNCing slide your head into the "handle", guys bring your knuckles to his head and grate, grate, grate...whistle while you work. Now this should relieve you of any stress. MetalCNCing this will teach you a valuable lesson...humility. Repeat until your hearts content guys or atleast until MetalCNCing shows signs of understanding.

lol Praetor,

I read some of the threads awhile ago, some how I knew this guy was some spoilt brat, know its been confirmed lol. Either way thou just maybe he can make it work, seems to have the backing with all those Pro's out there.

Mike

I can understand that this kid can be a genius at fifteen and knowing what he does about CNCing, he is possibly soaking up lessons at the best vocational high school in the nation, if not the planet. But what good is all of that if he seems to be overshooting, not to mention having Boeing engineers in your vest pocket. Here is my formula he can take to Boeing:

P+15yo+$-xf.p.s.=MLx100xSIN/circumference sq.

which translates to:
Pubescent + 15 year old+money spent at feet per second = Murphy's Law x 100 x an angle divided by a full circle...twice.

emphasis on angle as in, what is his angle? This formula would predict exactly when and how this kid would reach F.U.B.A.R. at an amazing speed.

F.U.B.A.R.
F***ed Up Beyond All Repair

Addendum:

This formula also carries a death wish with a minute change in the equation. I won't divulge the minute change in equation to this formula, which would predict exactly how many kids in the world have disposable cash and could be working on projects like this because it would bring on the apocolypse. So for the good of the nation...no, no the world please don't ask!

but ironically, despite everything else, I guess i can wish him good luck, I mean, we all had to start somewhere despite our varying [financial] upbringing, right?

Hahahaha, you guys are too funny. That definitely brightened my day. We can all wish him good luck, but it's a doomed gesture. I talked to him on aim for hours, what a waste of time. When someone refuses to listen to sound advice, I stop caring. Let's let this thread die.

Let's all bow our heads down in prayer in hopes that this thread will die...let's have a moment of silence, which represents MetalCNCing not listening to sound advice. Now I will recite prayer in latin.

Oh, let us go of any dummy with disposable moneyyyyy, Ohmmmmm
especially a fifteen year old progenyyyyyy, Ohmmmmm
whose research is iffy and quite possibly unworthyyyyy, Ohmmmmm

MetalCNCing ignorant be thy name
when mistakes will come, your comeupons will be done
on earth but should be on the sun, give us our day our steady head
deliver us from this evil thread or else we will all be dead.

this should cleanse us of this thread.

Is anyone going to help me, by giving me additional help??!!

Thanks...


OK. You got a bit of help, but you apparently new better, and some grief because of that. Build your machine, and prove them wrong. Or right. ;)

Everyone else, lighten up a bit here.

I was already to try and gve him some advice via aim, but it seems like it will be a lost cause, aparently. My advice is to start with a small machine and see how difficult and time consuming anything at all out of metal can be... not to mention most 15 year olds wont have the machine shop\fabrication ability to build such a thing.. i have been building project after project since i was 10 years old, give or take, and with an unlimited budget, it would still be very difficult to make a machine like the one he linked to.. He needs to learn to machine metal on a manual mill first... Get the spindle speeds, bit selection, coolant concerns, safety issues, general feel of working metal... This should take him about a year, at least..

Geeze.. . He would get so much help from all you great guys... It is a shame when someone states their intentions with a appeal for help, and then gets really defensive... Aspergers..

Robert

I agree with you guys, mostly with vacpress because it only makes sense, but the kid has it ingrained in his head that it can only be done his way or no way at all, atleast it seems, that is akin to a bad drunk. You go out your way not to have your friend[s] drive in an inebriated condition but they fight tooth and nail to try and tell you they're not drunk, so as a friend you have to practically knock some sense into him, or atleast knock him out, so that he can atleast try and live another day. Only difference is this kid isn't drunk...what's more...that's the sad part. As vacpress tried to suggest, I would advise: MetalCNCing...kid...gain some experience, with an unlimited budget by yourself cheap tabletop machines, convert them into CNC then work your way up...pace yourself, you have the time and money...ultimately you would gain the experience you need to build your beheamoth...maybe at nine-teen and experience under your belt...also, atleast you would still have your whole life ahead of you to do what ever it is you want to do. If this kid wants help then the first thing we should do is talk him out of taking on such a daunting undertaking...remember the movie king kong kid...the sh*t will bite you. take it slow. You asked for help, most of these people on cnc zone had to work years to get to where they are now, imagine the combined experience here? You have alot of imagination, energy and not to mention money but you don't have alot of patience and alot of teenage rebeliousness those two make for a categorical catastrophy...Oh and by the way, I am just now learning cnc, and I have a whole slew of manual machines you name them I probaly have them, I collect them but I always buy two of each when ever possible, one for collecting and one for play I have more of an extensive collection of manual machines then Jay Leno has Cars...he told me himself, I don't know if you've guessed it yet, but I have unlimited funds, also...I come from money, let's just say...if your parents or other family member makes rum cake, most likely, they are using my families brand of rum. You undersatand? kid, better things come to those who wait...really, I know.