Build Thread Grizzly 10x22 lathe, and X3 CNC conversion build log [Archive] - CNCzone.com-The Largest Machinist Community on the net!

TacPyro

02-15-2009, 02:52 PM

Hello

I have begun the adventure of converting a new lathe and mill to CNC. This thread (http://www.cnczone.com/forums/showthread.php?t=73414) is where the discussion began. We will convert the lathe first, using the mill to help the process along. After the lathe is done we'll convert the mill.
The main goal of this thread will be to collaborate on creative ideas involving the conversion of the Grizzly 10x22 lathe, and the X3 mill.
We manufacture tactical training products as shown in the photo below:
http://i302.photobucket.com/albums/nn103/Karmaarma/groupengraveditems.jpg
We have been using 7x14 lathes in our process, and have definitely outgrown them at this point. Here is one of our 7x14's taking care of a drilling operation:
http://i302.photobucket.com/albums/nn103/Karmaarma/IMG_2522.jpg

Items that have been ordered so far:

1 G0602 10x22 lathe (http://www.grizzly.com/products/10-x-22-Bench-Top-Metal-Lathe/G0602)
1 G0463 mill (http://www.grizzly.com/products/Mill-Drill/G0463) (this is the Grizzly version of the X3)
1 G540 (http://www.geckodrive.com/product.aspx?c=3&i=14469)stepper motor controller

I was on the Keling CNC (http://www.kelinginc.net/index.html) website, (which is a great resource for parts), but I couldn't find the KL23H284-35-4B 387 oz-in steppers on their order page? I left a message with them, but I was curious if anyone on the forum had any knowledge of why they aren't available?

I will be ordering my control computer from this site (http://www.tigerdirect.com/applications/SearchTools/search.asp?keywords=off+lease+desktop). We will be running Mach3, and I know that we need parallel ports, but is there anything else to look for in a control computer?

With the learning that will come from this work, I hope to offer much to the forum in the form of this thread and any questions that I can answer. In the mean time I'm sure that I will have many questions, but I'll do my best to search before I post.

We are in the process of ordering all of the necessary components for the conversion as well as modifying our shop to receive the new machines. Any tips on bench construction/modification would be great for a CNC conversion.

What is the best way to purchase Mach3?

We will be going with ball screws, and I will turn them down on the new 10x22, (great ball screw turning videos, scroll down (http://cnczone.com/forums/showthread.php?t=30385&page=54)). First I need some good quality tooling for the lathe with good indexable inserts. We will be ordering this quick change tool post (http://www.use-enco.com/CGI/INSRIT?PMAKA=505-2253&PMPXNO=953080&PARTPG=INLMK32). I have to admit that I am a bit unsure as to what tooling to purchase for the lathe. Any help with this would be great! The initial mill tooling will be this set (http://www.littlemachineshop.com/products/product_view.php?ProductID=3526&category=) from Little Machine Shop.

When looking into helical connectors to go between the stepper output shaft and the drive screw, do you choose connectors that will accept the OD of the stepper shaft and then turn down your screws to match? This makes sense to me but I want to be sure.

Is it fair to assume that, with attention to detail one can create a CNC machine from these machines that will work well and be reliable over a period of time?

Thank you all for your help now and in the future. More to come soon.

BobWarfield

02-15-2009, 04:15 PM

Looks like a lot of work in store to get two machines converted. Will you be using a kit for the mill to speed things up, or just going to do both from scratch?

RE lathe tooling, I like CCMT tooling with 1/2" shanks. Thicker shanks mean a bit more rigidity. I think Grizzly offers this tooling under the Glanze name. Micro 100 also has nice lathe tooling in the CCMT size.

Cheers,

BW

Matt McColley

02-15-2009, 04:17 PM

Welcome aboard to the X3 conversion crew....

I too am going with the G540 and the KL23H284-35-4B 387 oz-in motors on all three axis. I ordered the motors from Keling this past week and he responded that he had them in stock and would ship right off. At least one other guy on the zone ordered these motors from him last week as well.

Have you decided whose plan your going with? Or are you going to make up your own?

Good luck with your conversion. Keep us posted as you go.

Matt

caleb105

02-15-2009, 04:35 PM

Hello

I was on the Keling CNC (http://www.kelinginc.net/index.html) website, (which is a great resource for parts), but I couldn't find the KL23H284-35-4B 387 oz-in steppers on their order page? I left a message with them, but I was curious if anyone on the forum had any knowledge of why they aren't available?

Check here....2nd motor down from the top:

http://www.kelinginc.net/NEMA23Motor.html

escott76

02-15-2009, 04:55 PM

At least one other guy on the zone ordered these motors from him last week as well.

Yup, I did and they should be here tomorrow. Mine aren't going on an X3, but my homebuilt which is prolly somewhere between the X2 and X3.

Crevice Reamer

02-15-2009, 05:22 PM

Items that have been ordered so far:

1 G0602 10x22 lathe (http://www.grizzly.com/products/10-x-22-Bench-Top-Metal-Lathe/G0602)
1 G0463 mill (http://www.grizzly.com/products/Mill-Drill/G0463) (this is the Grizzly version of the X3)
1 G540 (http://www.geckodrive.com/product.aspx?c=3&i=14469)stepper motor controller

I was on the Keling CNC (http://www.kelinginc.net/index.html) website, (which is a great resource for parts), but I couldn't find the KL23H284-35-4B 387 oz-in steppers on their order page? I left a message with them, but I was curious if anyone on the forum had any knowledge of why they aren't available?

They are available.

I will be ordering my control computer from this site (http://www.tigerdirect.com/applications/SearchTools/search.asp?keywords=off+lease+desktop). We will be running Mach3, and I know that we need parallel ports, but is there anything else to look for in a control computer?

Mach3 needs at least 1 gHz speed--The more the better. Don't buy a computer with Vista OS--It can be flakey with Mach3--Get XP.

What is the best way to purchase Mach3?

Keling offers a discount when you buy it with motors.

When looking into helical connectors to go between the stepper output shaft and the drive screw, do you choose connectors that will accept the OD of the stepper shaft and then turn down your screws to match? This makes sense to me but I want to be sure.

Yes.

Is it fair to assume that, with attention to detail one can create a CNC machine from these machines that will work well and be reliable over a period of time?

Yes. Just keep everything lubed each day. You may want to install hour meters and do maintenance at certain hourly intervals.

You might also REALLY want to look at the CR'S BEST BUY in this category: Novakon CNC ready NM-135 for $3600. While similar, It's a much more rugged machine than X3, with N34 motors, 3/4" ball screws, one touch oiling system Etc.

http://novakon.net/3.html

It will cost you that much to CNC the X3. With the Novakon, all you have to do is plug the motor cables into your controller and computer and start making chips.

AND, you could LEASE it. Which may be a good idea in these times of credit crunch.

CR.

Crevice Reamer

02-15-2009, 05:26 PM

Here's a good CNC conversion thread to help CNC your new G602:

http://www.cnczone.com/forums/showthread.php?t=59435

CR.

Matt McColley

02-15-2009, 07:05 PM

my homebuilt which is prolly somewhere between the X2 and X3.

Dude, your macine is in a class all by it's self!

Don't compare that beauty to any China builds.

Crevice Reamer

02-15-2009, 07:23 PM

Here's some video of a Novakon sister mill in action:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OjAS2t9fXxs

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-RaEThG0I0A&NR=1

CR.

escott76

02-15-2009, 09:24 PM

Dude, your macine is in a class all by it's self!

Don't compare that beauty to any China builds.

Thanks, I was just referring to size :) But your compliment is appreciated.

TacPyro

02-16-2009, 11:49 PM

Update:

We have looked into the Novakon NM-135 mill and compared it to a few other X3 style turn key mills. After a bit of research I contacted Novakon and spoke with John, the owner, and Kai, their sails rep to hash out the details of a perspective order. They were very helpful and answered all of our questions. Due to our experiences dealing with them personally, and of course the mill its self, we have decided to place an order with them and cancel our Grizzly X3 mill order. The package that we will order tomorrow is as follows:

1 NM-135 CNC mill
1 CD 100 controller, (4 axes G203 controller)
4th axes rotary table, (sweet!!)
Coolant system
Machine stand
Bob CAM
Mach 3
1 year warranty
Shipping ($700:eek:)

The guys were great to deal with, and we look forward to doing business with them in the future.

For the new mill, we will also order the Tormach quick change tooling system. Is the $725 kit worth it?

We are pushing forward with the 10x22 lathe project, and believe it or not, I can't decide which tool I'm more excited about.

These two machines are going to be a invaluable addition to our shop.
Speaking of the shop, we have somewhat retrofitted our working area and only have access to a limited amount of circuits/power, with no option of adding more.
This request may seem a bit off the wall, but how difficult would it be to build a battery bank with 12V deep cycle batteries and run them through an inverter to compensate for some of our power needs during heavy periods power usage? The battery bank would then be charged at night after closing time. Any thoughts on this would be great!

Will the NM-135 (KX3) fit on a 24" deep work bench?

Can one control computer run two machines at once? I'm thinking not.

Karmaarma

02-17-2009, 12:12 AM

More, more...

HimyKabibble

02-17-2009, 12:12 AM

Update:

We have looked into the Novakon NM-135 mill and compared it to a few other X3 style turn key mills. After a bit of research I contacted Novakon and spoke with John, the owner, and Kai, their sails rep to hash out the details of a perspective order. They were very helpful and answered all of our questions. Due to our experiences dealing with them personally, and of course the mill its self, we have decided to place an order with them and cancel our Grizzly X3 mill order. The package that we will order tomorrow is as follows:

1 NM-135 CNC mill
1 CD 100 controller, (4 axes G203 controller)
4th axes rotary table, (sweet!!)
Coolant system
Machine stand
Bob CAM
Mach 3
1 year warranty
Shipping ($700:eek:)

The guys were great to deal with, and we look forward to doing business with them in the future.

For the new mill, we will also order the Tormach quick change tooling system. Is the $725 kit worth it?

We are pushing forward with the 10x22 lathe project, and believe it or not, I can't decide which tool I'm more excited about.

These two machines are going to be a invaluable addition to our shop.

Can one control computer run two machines at once? I'm thinking not.

"Can one control computer run two machines at once?" - Not a chance!

Regards,
Ray L.

TacPyro

02-19-2009, 09:21 PM

Update:

I received my G540 today and made a new little friend. Thanks to everyone at Gecko.
The controller is beautiful, but I was also very pleased with the packaging.
http://i302.photobucket.com/albums/nn103/Karmaarma/Gecko540controllerpic.jpg

The Novakon NM-135 CNC mill has been ordered with their CD-100 controller (4-G203Vs), Coolant system, and 4 inch CNC rotary table for $7,096 shipped to Washington.
The guys at Novakon are great! Thanks guys.
http://i302.photobucket.com/albums/nn103/Karmaarma/Nm-135.jpg

The Lathe is ordered (Grizzly G0602) as are the 387 oz-in steppers, power supply, and the Estop.

Much more needs to be purchased. What is a good CNC vise for the mill?

Crevice Reamer

02-19-2009, 10:10 PM

Looking good!

You CAN run two machines from the same computer--Just not simultaneously.

The mill and the lathe will use diferent xml files in mach. You load the one for the proper machine and load the Gcode file for that part.

The Db-25 cable from the computer is connected to an "A-B" switch. This switch has 2 more DB-25 connectors--One is A and the other is B. You connect A to either the mill or lathe and B to the other. A knob on the switch is turned to select the machine to be used.

http://sewelldirect.com/parallel-db-25-manual-switch-2.asp

This can easily be done, but is not as efficient as having two totally independant CNC units.

Much more needs to be purchased. What is a good CNC vise for the mill?

You will also need 2 pair motor cable wire:

http://cgi.ebay.com/Stepper-Motor-Wi...742.m153.l1262

You have never used a mill in your production process. You WILL need a production vise, and they are quite expensive. I recommend that you buy a good "starter vise" and work with it awhile to learn just exactly what you will need.

This $47 dollar vise is ok to learn with:

http://littlemachineshop.com/products/product_view.php?ProductID=1145&category=

Or you could get this vise and milling video combo for $137.

http://littlemachineshop.com/products/product_view.php?ProductID=3487&category=

It is MY feeling, that you will be using the 4th axis and chuck to hold most of your cylindrical parts. If you don't have a chuck coming WITH the RT, then you will need one. If you intend to use square stock, or want to exert less pressure on your aluminum cylinders, then you will need that chuck to be a 4 jaw. You probably will want a Scrolling 4 jaw chuck. That is self-centering and is easier to mount/unmount parts into.

CR.

TacPyro

02-19-2009, 10:39 PM

Crevice Reamer

02-19-2009, 10:55 PM

We are going to use one computer for each machine because we are going to run them both at the same time.

Is there an issue with having the net connected to a control computer? It would be nice to have access to the Internet on the computers when they are not being used for CNC.
Could someone advise if this computer (http://www.tigerdirect.com/applications/SearchTools/item-details.asp?EdpNo=4412168&CatId=2645) will work well?

Kai at Novakon told me today that they have had a couple of issues of customers computers parallel ports not being compatible with their BOBs. Has anyone ever heard of this?

Those computers should be fine. I do not recommend having internet connection though. You want your production equipment isolated from the world of virus attacks and running only Mach3. Virus protection tends to interfere with Mach3 running parts.

You may need a temporary internet connection to download your Mach3 license, but after that, internet software should be removed.

What Kai is probably referering to is that Many computers come with 3V parallel ports instead of the required 5V. This can cause a BOB expecting 5V to have problems.

You may be able to contact Dell with the model number and find out what voltage your prospective computer is powering the parallel port with. Most of the older computers ARE 5V PP though.

CR.

Crevice Reamer

02-19-2009, 11:02 PM

I have edited that previous computer post with vise and RT info. Did you read it?

CR.

TacPyro

02-19-2009, 11:27 PM

Yeah, I just read the edit, CR. What does a production vise for a small mill look like/go for?

No chuck is pictured in the RT photo on the Novakon website so I'll check on that. Do they usually come with come with them?
We use scroll chucks in our lathes now.

Crevice Reamer

02-19-2009, 11:35 PM

Yeah, I just read the edit, CR. What does a production vise for a small mill look like/go for?

LOL! How many stars are in the sky?

Depends on what you need, how you need to hold with it, and how fast you want to change parts.

http://kurtworkholding.com/

CR.

TacPyro

02-19-2009, 11:43 PM

I didn't know that there were so many types of vises available! Crazy!

There are apparently quite of few stars.

Crevice Reamer

02-19-2009, 11:50 PM

To see the prices, click on: Additional information.

Some of these are quite expensive.

CR.

Matt McColley

02-20-2009, 10:01 AM

Kurt vises cost a small fortune... way out of my league.

We do have a Kurt on our Knee mill at work though and imho, they are the best vises money can buy and you will never feel the need to "upgrade".

TacPyro

02-20-2009, 10:09 AM

The Kurt vises do look nice, but maybe we'll go for something a little less expensive right now.

Is there a vise made for CNC? It seems like I remember someone mentioning it here on the forum somewhere.

No luck with Dell on the parallel port voltage on the control computers. I guess I'll just give it a shot.
(computers and 19" LCD monitors ordered)

TacPyro

02-25-2009, 03:22 PM

The last few days have been spent researching accessories for the new lathe and mill. Some items that have been ordered are:

Vise- Kurt D40 (http://www.use-enco.com/CGI/INSRIT?PMAKA=425-7640&PMPXNO=953715&PARTPG=INLMK32)
Quick change tooling: Tormach set (http://www.littlemachineshop.com/products/product_view.php?ProductID=2440&category=)
And the other little bits that go with the lathe and mill.

With the 4" rotary table, what is the best way to adapt a 4" chuck to it?

Guldberg

02-25-2009, 03:25 PM

As far as i know, a 4" table doesnt accommodate a 4" chuck, as they are the same size there is no way to bolt it on without a set of adapter plates

Crevice Reamer

02-25-2009, 04:38 PM

Some RTs have threaded centers. I don't think this one does. You will probably need to get an adapter plate and T nuts to fit into the RTs T slots. It's true, only a 3 inch chuck and adapter will fit a four inch RT. This will limit you to only about 2 1/2 inch diameter work.

You might need to go to a six inch RT to get what you want.

I used a mini lathe head (ala Hoss)

http://hossmachine.info/projects_5.html#4th%20axis

to build a RT/lathe 4th axis, and that allows me to mount THIS 4 inch chuck and adapter:

http://littlemachineshop.com/products/product_view.php?ProductID=2361&category=

For what YOU are doing, you might even want a SIX jaw chuck:

http://littlemachineshop.com/products/product_view.php?ProductID=2276&category=

CR.

TacPyro

02-25-2009, 08:13 PM

Very good information. I'll call Khai tomorrow and upgrade to the 6" RT so that we can mount a 4" chuck. The 6 jaw would be useful, it looks kind of mean too.
Thanks for the help Guldberg, and CR.

TacPyro

02-25-2009, 11:07 PM

Crevice Reamer

02-26-2009, 09:16 AM

I would like to add a tooling plate the the Novakon NM-135 (KX3 mill). Will this tooling plate (http://www.littlemachineshop.com/products/product_view.php?ProductID=3531&category=2)work for this mill?
I imagine so, but I just want to be safe.
Is this plate a good option, or is there a better way to go?

How does a tooling plate attach to the mill T-slot table? With T nuts and bolts?

Thanks again.

Yep! T nuts and screws, but that one is not big enough. In fact, I don't think one is available that is big enough.

The whole advantage of a tool plate is that you can dowel pin your RT, Vise and fixtures to an exact repeatable location. That requires a lot of table area, which is limited, and you have to plan to take advantage of every bit of it.

That tool plate will work if you keep the present tin flood enclosure. But chances are that you will quickly out grow that enclosure and need a full sized one anyway. You already will have to mount your vise sideways inside it, and that takes up almost all of your table area.

The ideal tooling plate would be LONGER and WIDER than the mill table.

LONGER so that the 4th axis could be mounted to the left (or right, where the weight is better supported) off the actual table so as not to encroach on work area. This leaves room for vise or fixtures to stay mounted. You may want to have room for a ATC tool rack on opposite end of RT.

WIDER so that clamps can be mounted outside of work area.

Also the T slot cut into that table is for a tiny Sherline tail stock.

Your 6 inch RT will need a much larger tail stock should you decide to use one.

You would be far better off to buy some 3/4" 6061 aluminum for a custom tool plate, and let the Novakon drill all the holes for you. You could also cut a Tslot for mounting the larger tail stock.

Here's how Hoss made HIS:

http://www.cnczone.com/forums/showthread.php?t=30385&page=33

CR.

BobWarfield

02-26-2009, 11:15 AM

Note: You can mount a 4" chuck on a 4" rotab (or a 6" on a 6"), it isn't that hard or big a deal.

Just drill through the chuck from the top and bolt through to the tnuts below. Very easy to do.

Think through carefully whether you want a 3-jaw/6-jaw or a 4-jaw too. Depending on what you're doing. You can center up by bumping in the 3-jaw before tightening the t-bolts, or you can center up using the 4-jaw. If you have a reason to mount a part eccentrically, the 4-jaw is helpful. Personally, for production on small parts, I like a 5C collet chuck the best.

RE tooling plate and leaving the 4th axis mounted. Why? It's a lot of weight hanging way out there past the table on a small mill that doesn't need the extra flex. If you've got a tooling plate set up for dowel pins, you can drop the 4th axis on and its aligned right away. Make a little base for it out of the way of the mill's travels that's dowel pinned and let it sit there when you're not using it.

FWIW, here are some notes on tooling plates (albeit you'll want a smaller grid size for the smaller mill):

http://www.cnccookbook.com/MTMillFixturePlate.htm

I've called out some available accessories from Carr Lane you may find helpful for your plate.

You should likely build your own as it isn't hard and store bought are often not cheap.

Cheers,

BW

TacPyro

03-03-2009, 08:23 PM

I've managed to get a few of the preparatory tasks out of the way for the arrival of the new lathe and mill. Both will be CNC of course, so I have put together a computer station for the two machines.
http://i302.photobucket.com/albums/nn103/Karmaarma/011.jpg

The rest of the bench area has been sorted out and is ready for the lathe and mill.
http://i302.photobucket.com/albums/nn103/Karmaarma/003.jpghttp://i302.photobucket.com/albums/nn103/Karmaarma/004.jpg

I have also received the Tormach tools and some miscellaneous lathe tooling. Something odd that I noticed is that the two wrenches that came with the Tormach tools were not the same. One was nicely finished and quite substantial, the other one, (the one on the left in the picture) was much cheaper and had one end cut off and ground, as well as the brand name ground down. I'm pretty sure that someone cut one end off of a two end wrench, ground the branding and sent it that way to complete the kit. Odd...
http://i302.photobucket.com/albums/nn103/Karmaarma/009.jpg

Thank you CR, and Bob for the tips on the tooling plate and RT chucks. I have upgraded to the 6 inch rotary table for the mill and am looking for a proper chuck now. This chuck will mostly be used to hold 1.5"x4" solid 6061 aluminum round stock for production work. The work to be done on the mill with the RT will be 4 .25" holes side drilled at 90 degrees each with a longitudinal flat machined along two opposing sides of the part that will be followed with engraving.
Is it difficult to engrave around the part with the A axes moving at all times?

Teyber12

03-03-2009, 08:32 PM

I will not comment on stuff i am not sure of, but i do 95% of my work on my x3 with 1.5" copper. I have wasted a lot of money with chucks and such by going to small- I found it not sturdy enough unless i used the inside chuck teeth. i have a 6" rotary table with a 3 jaw self centering 5" chuck and love it, purchased from littlemachineshop.com

cheers

TacPyro

03-03-2009, 08:48 PM

Teyber, how did you adapt your 5" chuck to your rotary table?

Do you have any pics of the parts that you make?

Teyber12

03-03-2009, 08:57 PM

Sure!

http://i198.photobucket.com/albums/aa15/teyber/DSCN3086.jpg
http://i198.photobucket.com/albums/aa15/teyber/sandblastedevap.jpg
http://i198.photobucket.com/albums/aa15/teyber/DSCN2965.jpg

Here is my rotary table-
http://www.littlemachineshop.com/products/product_view.php?ProductID=2326&category=
this mounting for the chuck
http://www.littlemachineshop.com/products/product_view.php?ProductID=2330
and this chuck
http://www.littlemachineshop.com/products/product_view.php?ProductID=2337&category=
it took my 2 rotary tables and 3 chucks to finally be happy with the combination :) it helps that littlemachine shop is under 30 minutes away also.

Your machines make me drool- i am very envious.

cheers!

TacPyro

03-03-2009, 09:17 PM

Teyber, thanks for those links. I think that I'll make another purchase from LMS tonight.
It must be nice living so close to a good source of tooling.

The machines may make you drool now, but lets just wait to see if I can figure out how all this CNC stuff works before we get too ahead of ourselves.:confused:

Update: Chuck and adapter plate ordered from LMS.

Do you make cooling units?

We make these:
http://i302.photobucket.com/albums/nn103/Karmaarma/groupengraveditems.jpghttp://i302.photobucket.com/albums/nn103/Karmaarma/m18wm28.jpghttp://i302.photobucket.com/albums/nn103/Karmaarma/40mmshell.jpghttp://i302.photobucket.com/albums/nn103/Karmaarma/fullprojomojocase.jpg
www.tacticalpyrotechnics.com

Crevice Reamer

03-04-2009, 10:45 AM

Hi Blane! That's some nice benchery.

Is it difficult to engrave around the part with the A axes moving at all times?

Hoss has done it in G code like this. (Post # 184):

http://cnczone.com/forums/showthread.php?t=30385&page=16

CR.

TacPyro

03-04-2009, 11:19 AM

CR, thanks for that link to Hoss' how to on A motion laser engraving.

What kind of tool was he using to do that?

Crevice Reamer

03-04-2009, 11:38 AM

I don't know. It looks like some sort of engraving bit. Hoss will tell you for sure if you ask him.

CR.

Teyber12

03-04-2009, 07:48 PM

CR, thanks for that link to Hoss' how to on A motion laser engraving.

What kind of tool was he using to do that?

could be (and probably am) way off but looks like a 1/8" 2 flute end mill with a 3/8" shank

your work is amazing :eek:

TacPyro

03-04-2009, 08:34 PM

your work is amazing :eek:

Teyber, thanks for the kind words. Hopefully all this CNC stuff will make it a bit easier.

project5k

03-05-2009, 03:35 PM

you know, if i didnt know better, i'd say that copper part, the one that looks like stacked plates, sitting next to the copper pipe plug, was for a water cooled rc boat head.

TacPyro

03-05-2009, 04:16 PM

Project, I also thought that might be a possibility. It's comical to me that you came up with the same conclusion.
Oh RC stuff... how you have cost me so much money. I've been flying helis for a little while now and they are way too much fun. Way too much money as well.
http://i302.photobucket.com/albums/nn103/Karmaarma/Picture234.jpghttp://i302.photobucket.com/albums/nn103/Karmaarma/IMG_3652.jpg

Teyber12

03-05-2009, 04:22 PM

Its an evaporator for a 2 stage cascade system used to cool a cpu to around -100c :D

BobWarfield

03-07-2009, 11:05 AM

A little more rotary table stuff may be found on my page here:

http://www.cnccookbook.com/CCRotabToys.html

That's all manual machine work, but you can see some larger chucks mounted. I also wanted to call your attention to the ER chuck:

http://www.cnccookbook.com/img/OthersProjects/Tools/RotabAlignment.jpg

Collets are pretty sweet for a lot of applications, especially if you are going to do production. They're much more repeatable than a 3-jaw and you don't have to spend the dialing in time needed with a 4-jaw. You do need to be aware of the need to touch off the machine on a lot of collet types because while they will locate the part concentrically with you A-Axis, they may not get the axial (length) dimension quite right. That's usually no biggie to do though.

Cheers,

BW

clocker

03-08-2009, 01:57 AM

I was watching a video and noticed that they had the machine set to wait with the bit as a work stop. Just make sure there is a manual wait in your program and extend the piece until it touches your bit. Now you know the z dimension with no need to touch off.

Nice pictures Bob, what type of collets do you use? I have been debating between 5C ER32 and ER40. I have MT4 and R8 spindles on my machines.

TacPyro

03-08-2009, 12:21 PM

Bob, I have been looking through your web page for a while. Lots of good stuff.
I would love to use a collet with our production work, however we generally work with 1.5" to 1.75" stock, so that would be an issue.
I have ordered a 5" 3 jaw chuck with an adapter plate for the new RT. I think that the 5" chuck will work just fine for our purposes.

Are there collets that will receive 1.5" ish shanks?

BobWarfield

03-08-2009, 12:34 PM

clocker, I use 5C and ER32 collets. I will likely also acquire one of the really small sizes like ER11. I generally use the 5C's on the lathe since I have a nice chuck there that makes changes fast.

Tac, for 1.5" shanks, the only collets I know that go that large are 16C. They're available and you could use them. The other thought is to make sure the chuck you purchase is set up for soft jaws. They'll be just as repeatable as the collets when you get them set up and even faster to change workpieces on.

TacPyro

03-08-2009, 12:49 PM

Bob, I did a Google search for "soft jaw chucks", and I found products, but nothing describing what they are or how they are used.
What are they exactly?

BobWarfield

03-08-2009, 01:51 PM

You'll want a chuck with "2 piece jaws." See this page:

http://www.brassandtool.com/Chucks-Lathe.html

If you scroll down, you'll see some Bison chucks with this feature. Look for chucks whose jaws have the bolt holes for mounting the top jaws, like the top pic where there are 2 Bison 3-jaws shown.

Soft jaws are just aluminum jaws that you make and bolt onto the chuck's bottom jaws.

You install aluminum jaw blanks, put a ring of close to the diameter you want the jaws to work at in back so the jaws and mechanism are loaded at that diameter. Then you take a boring bar and machine a bore in the jaws of exactly that diameter. Now you can clamp that diameter precisely and repeatably. Works very well.

Best,

BW

Mike Ray

03-29-2009, 09:10 AM

Don't know about these guys but that 10x22 conversion looks clean.

http://www.d3cnc.com
YouTube - L1022G CNC Lathe Steel Turning Demonstration

Crevice Reamer

03-29-2009, 10:02 AM

$3750? For such an easily convertable lathe, I think the price is very steep.

$1050 Grizzly 10 x 22 (shipped free) with ALL accessories. (2 chucks, face plate, steady rest, follower rest, MT3 dead center, Tailstock, Back splash.)
$0500 Ball screws factory pre-cut and turned with ball nuts.
$0299 Gecko G540.
$0088 Keling stepper motors.
$0200 Miscellaneous parts.
--------
$2137.00 Could even be a lot less!

http://grizzly.com/products/10-x-22-Bench-Top-Metal-Lathe/G0602

CR.

Mike Ray

03-29-2009, 10:43 AM

I do agree about the price.

I have the G0602. This is a great machine. Just finished the table and setup for it.

I just like how clean the look of the machine is and if your making parts and need to get buzzie. A few dollars well spent I think.

I always say ask a question. Do you want to build a machine or use it? That directs you some on costs.

If you can be makin chips/dollars in a few days, buyin at a higher price might be the business decision.

Plus it is a tax right off and your labor is not :D .

Mike

Crevice Reamer

03-29-2009, 10:49 AM

All True for business. Even better: Lease it! Straight deduction--No depreciation--No impact on credit ratio.

CR.

dgoddard

04-06-2009, 09:46 AM

For a "shade tree machinist" like myself, converting the lathe from manual to cnc is a lot of enjoyment, then using it is a lot of "more" fun. I'm in the final steps of converting the G0602. Have about $1500 invested thus far (plus a little fun time). Have an old Clausing lathe to do any manual work needed. Got the CNC bug when converted a RF-31 mill/drill. Love it.

TacPyro

04-06-2009, 06:18 PM

http://i302.photobucket.com/albums/nn103/Karmaarma/020.jpg
The Novakon NM-135 mill is all setup in its place on the bench now. I have made some chips with it using the MPG in Mach and I have also done a little engraving with the Mach wizzard. Cool stuff. I am however stumped on a few things:
I am trying out small projects through Mach 3 like the engraving which I mentioned before and that worked OK, however I would like to move on to programing in a surfacing operation or cutting a pocket. I have looked around the offsets page a bit and I am assuming that this page is used to locate the work in the grid, as well as set Z offsets and tool offsets. Is this correct? If so, what are the appropriate steps to work through the process?
If possible, could someone outline how to setup, locate, and run a simple surfacing operation on say a piece of 2"x5" aluminum stock? Is there an easy way to do this directly in Mach?
I believe that once I learn these fundamental steps that I can begin to build on them much more easily. If someone is willing to briefly work with me on this it would be much appreciated. If at all possible it would be great to chat with someone on the phone; call me at 253-203-4085. Someone in the Seattle area would be even better. I understand that this is a lot to ask, but maybe there is a quick $20 via Paypal for anyone willing to give up a chunk of their time.

Thanks again.

pete from TN

04-06-2009, 06:45 PM

I am not any sort of expert but I have played with my download of Mach3 here and there are wizards for surfacing and pocketing on there. Did you try them? Maybe that is not what you are asking, I am not sure. The wizards do all sorts of cool stuff that you can do without manual programming. Pretty neat stuff really....peace

escott76

04-06-2009, 08:09 PM

dgoddard

04-06-2009, 08:14 PM

Have you looked at the Newfangled Solutions Mach3 Addons for Mill wizzards in Mach3? www.newfangledsolutions.com I use them all the time and find can do most anything needed. Really like the ability to combine several different operations into one G-code program. Free wizzards in Mach3 work very well but find the NFS ones are great. Well work the $50 I paid. I'll send you a PM and see if can help with your questions.

TacPyro

04-07-2009, 12:48 AM

Guldberg

04-07-2009, 04:27 AM

In the general settings you can set IJ to absolut or incremental as far as i remember. This has something to do with how mach interpretate arcs in the G-code. How to set it depends on the CAM program you are using. If it wont work or stops the first time it hits an arc, try the other setting.

It sounds like you could use a basic course in milling or a just a simple book. If you are not familiar with manual milling, i foresee that accidents are bound to happen. Good thing its a small machine:-) There are some info here http://littlemachineshop.com/info/MiniMillUsersGuide.pdf

You may also look at http://littlemachineshop.com/products/product_category.php?category=993665105

And while we are at it this is IMO one of the best books for hobby machinest http://littlemachineshop.com/products/product_view.php?ProductID=2366&category=993665105

dgoddard

04-07-2009, 10:23 AM

dgoddard, I took a look at the NFS wizards and they do look great. Paypal money has been sent. I assume that I can copy the NFS license file onto a thumb drive to install it onto the (no internet allowed) control computer?
Speaking of the wizzards, none of them give you an option to input where the surface of the part is in Z. Is this done through the offsets page in Mach? Some wizards call for a location of the corner of X and y. Do they want you to bring the edge finder exactly to the point of the corner?
I am also getting two messages from the condition button on the program run page in Mach. One says IJ mode is absolute. The other says axes are not refed to normal condition. Any help on these two messages would be great.

Thanks all for the help. There is so much to learn here.

If you have not downloaded a copy of the Mach3 manual, highly recommend that you do so. It covers in detail offsets, etc and will answer most of your questions. The wizzards generate the gcode for the machining operation (pocketing, drilling, slotting, etc.). Setting the x, y, z tool zero positions is an operator function. X and Y are normally set with an edge finder. Using offsets, Mach3 will set the zero point. There are different methods to determine Z zero. Many are covered in CNCZone posts. For the beginner, suggest lowering the Z axis to just where you can not move a thin sheet of paper between the tool and the work. Sort of like using a feeler gage. Set the axis to zero and move up to clear surface.

Teyber12

04-07-2009, 11:13 PM

sorry if i missed it :(

but do you know what software you are going to use?

edit: just read in your novakon thread bobcad :D

sorry i posted first :(

TacPyro

04-08-2009, 12:15 PM

escott76

04-08-2009, 12:39 PM

Tyber, BobCad is it, however I haven't even started learning it yet.

I have skimmed through the Mach3 manual and it did help a lot. There are still a couple of questions that I have.

Is it general practice to touch on the left and front side of the workpiece and then zero the x and y axes at those locations? I ask this because when I set parameters in the offsets page it never seems work with the wizard programs but zeroing the left and front side of the work does.

Also, I am getting a condition message on the Program Run page. The green button that usually says normal condition sometimes flashes green and yellow and says "axes are not refed to normal condition". Why is this and how do I correct it?

Finally, when I home all axes and click on the Machine Cords button, shouldn't the X,Y, and Z DRO's all read 0? Mine don't. What should the DRO's read?

I have only installed the XML file that was included with the mill. This file contained the general parameters of the machine, so I am assuming that some fine tuning needs to be done. I have no idea, however where to begin tuning the mill.

I understand that these are all probably very basic questions, however I am mostly lost at this point on where to continue with the above questions. I appreciate any help.

Thanks

I don't intend for this to be at all insulting, although I understand how it could be taken that way. I mean no disrespect, only trying to help. I have no idea what your competency level is, or how comfortable you are with machinery in general.
It sounds like you are trying to use this machine in a business situation to produce product, but have no idea how a CNC machine operates.
Buying a CNC machine (or any machine for that matter) doesn't make you a machinist. Having the nicest, fanciest turnkey system isn't going to do any good unless you understand how to cut the material you are trying to cut, and how the machine will do so.
Skimming the manual isn't going to do a whole lot of good. You need to read it till you "get it", and then read it again. Asking basic questions on a forum like this can be somewhat helpful, but at the stage you seem to be at, responses here may serve to confuse the issue more than help. Compounding that is that there are many many different ways to approach setting up and working with a machine. How and where you set your offsets are not things written in stone, rather they are application, machine, and part dependent. It's hard to encapsulate explanations for this into a couple of words on a message board. It's also hard to know if the guy on the other end of the line knows what he's talking about, even though he may have the best intentions.
The best thing to do is to take some classes in this sort of thing. Many community colleges offer machining classes, some at night. You might find a local machine shop willing to show you the ropes for a couple bucks as well. Or you might find someone willing to come in and set things up. Were I to be local I'd be happy to come over and assist, but I'm a long way from Seattle. MIT has a series of basic machining videos up as well that can teach a lot. Magazines like the Home Shop Machinist offer a number of training videos.
Although those options don't get you cutting parts tomorrow, they are going to help you more than trying to learn by skimming the manual and posting basic questions on a board like this. Your machine will thank you for it, and the work you produce will be better for it.

TacPyro

04-08-2009, 05:20 PM

escott, much you say is true. I do have experience on lathes as that is the equipment that we currently use but this is our first mill, CNC or otherwise. I may have misspoken when I said that I skimmed through the Mach manual. I suppose that I should have written that I didn't read the sections that didn't apply to me, such as wiring the machine, due to the fact that I bought a turn key system. This is not to say that I won't read those sections, it just didn't seem relevant to the knowledge that I was looking for at the time. The manual doesn't answer all of the questions either. It actually leaves much to be desired when viewed by a person with no CNC experience.
A class or meeting with someone with CNC experience would be very helpful. I will look into those options. In the mean time I will continue to attempt to find the answers to the little questions that are coming up.

I am getting a condition message from Mach on the Program Run page. The green button that usually says normal condition sometimes flashes green and yellow and says "axes are not refed to normal condition". Why is this and how do I correct it?

Thank you everyone for all of the help.

Teyber12

04-08-2009, 05:46 PM

this is coming from someone with zero cnc experience. that said-

Maybe your steps per inch are off, the software is thinking that moving it x step smoves it 1 inch when its actually moving 1.xxxx inches. so then when it moves back home, it goes back hits all the home swithces then backs off them a bit, however the table has moved more/less then mach thinks hence your dro is not reading 0? That said perhaps mach sets the dro to 0... Just an idea?

I think hoss has written some great stuff on mach calibration set up et cetera. id skim through a couple of threads (by skim we are on the same page- skip through till you see anything about setup, mach, et cetera).

Cheers, and sorry if im wrong.

TacPyro

04-08-2009, 05:50 PM

Teyber, thanks for the tip. I love Hoss' stuff.

Anyone have an idea on that condition message from Mach that I am having trouble with?

escott76

04-08-2009, 06:46 PM

Teyber12

04-08-2009, 07:53 PM

The machine doesn't count how far it goes to get home, it just goes there. It isn't a calibration issue.

Ok, and since im in the same boat as tacpyro, shouldn't the dro always read 0 when you go home? isn't that what home is? (0,0,0)

hoss2006

04-08-2009, 07:53 PM

I am getting a condition message from Mach on the Program Run page. The green button that usually says normal condition sometimes flashes green and yellow and says "axes are not refed to normal condition". Why is this and how do I correct it?

Thank you everyone for all of the help.

This is from the Mach support forum (http://www.machsupport.com/forum/index.php/topic,1654.0.html).
Hoss

TacPyro

04-09-2009, 11:37 AM

Thanks for the link Hoss. That explains it.

I just finished up reading through your thread about your latest consul project. Nice work!

Crevice Reamer

04-09-2009, 11:48 AM

Ok, and since im in the same boat as tacpyro, shouldn't the dro always read 0 when you go home? isn't that what home is? (0,0,0)

YES! If that is what you have Home set for. And if steps per inch setting is off, it will not reset to Zero. But Home IS home. The actual position WILL be home, but the DRO will be off if SPI is not calibrated.

CR.

hoss2006

04-09-2009, 06:03 PM

TacPyro

04-09-2009, 06:12 PM

I see, Hoss. Thank you for that very much.

As mentioned in above posts, all that I have done as far as machine settings is to install the XML file that Novakon provided with the machine. The file is a set of basic parameters for the machine, however my guess is that it is just a starting point for tuning the system. Is there a good guide on how to tune a CNC mill via Mach?

Also, the jog mode button on the MPG won't toggle between continuous and step any more and I can't think of a setting that I made that would affect this. Any ideas?

hoss2006

04-09-2009, 07:02 PM

Teyber12

04-09-2009, 07:41 PM

there was a good mach 3 video that described tuning the motors pretty well. perhaps you have seen it, ill try to find it and ill edit this post if i do

Crevice Reamer

04-09-2009, 10:31 PM

When you send the machine home, the Machine Coordinates will reset to the value in the settings, typically 0,0,0.
It doesn't matter if your machine is off, it only knows it's at the home position
and it's going to change the DRO to match what you wanted.
Hoss

Mach3 will only change the DRO at home if you have it set to auto zero. Without auto zero being set, if the Axes are calibrated properly and no backlash, machine home should end up zero.

CR.

hoss2006

04-09-2009, 11:08 PM

That's why auto zero is the default selection in Mach, that's the point of going Home,
to set the axis' to zero in Machine Coordinates.
If your machine crashes, you loose steps, etc, just send it to the home switch.
It will reset and your work and tool offsets will be good again.
Hoss

hoss2006

04-10-2009, 09:29 AM

If you want to learn more, check out the Homing, Limits and Offsets (http://www.machsupport.com/videos/) tutorial from Artsoft.
Hoss

Crevice Reamer

04-10-2009, 09:57 AM

If you want to learn more, check out the Homing, Limits and Offsets (http://www.machsupport.com/videos/) tutorial from Artsoft.
Hoss

Which explains that Auto Zero is NOT the default. You have to SET it to auto zero.

CR.

hoss2006

04-10-2009, 10:10 AM

He is showing his setup which is modified constantly for videos.
Every version of Mach 3 that I've installed has the Auto Zero checked as default.
Hoss

hoss2006

04-10-2009, 10:16 AM

This is the screen from a new version I just installed and haven't changed from default.
Hoss

Crevice Reamer

04-10-2009, 10:56 AM

TacPyro

04-10-2009, 11:22 AM

Great info guys. I'm pretty sure that the machine needs some calibration, so I'll do some reading and try to calibrate it this weekend.

I really appreciate the help.

hoss2006

04-10-2009, 11:32 AM

Sorry Hoss! I guess you are right. I DO know that I had to set it on mine the last time.

If it comes set to Auto Zero by default, then it should be UNSET until the Axes are calibrated. Otherwise there is no clear indication if there is a calibration problem.

CR.

If you're talking about the axis calibration (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OTHdgk12EcI&feature=channel_page) that I came up with, you are zeroing the WORK OFFSET on the edge of a part, and calibrating from there.
Home position doesn't matter and you don't even need home switches.
If you think your system is missing steps, run it home (zeroed) uncheck auto zero, rapid the axis back and forth, then send it home again.
If the DRO doesn't read zero, then you have a motor problem, slow down the velocity.
Hoss

TacPyro

04-10-2009, 12:05 PM

Oh yeah, one more thing. I have setup work offsets on the offset page, but there doesn't seem to be a way to apply these offsets to any of the wizards. Am I missing something?

hoss2006

04-10-2009, 01:31 PM

If you want to use say work offset fixture 2 (G55)
you'll have to eidt the program and add the G55 into the program.
I used G54 and G55 in this old program for the first ATC to offset the Z for the different tools.

(Created 6:18:18 PM 11/6/2007 from home switch cover x and y inside profile.dxf)
(Post = ISO G-Code - Non Modal)
(Tool 4 = )

N0003 T4 M6 G54
N0005 G00 X-0.1792 Y0.2450 Z0.1000
M3 S4000
N0007 G00 X-0.1792 Y0.2450 Z0.1000
N0009 G01 X-0.1792 Y0.2450 Z-0.1000 F5.00
N0011 G01 X1.5008 Y0.2450 Z-0.1000 F20.00
N0013 G03 X1.5058 Y0.2500 I0.0000 J0.0050
N0015 G01 X1.5058 Y2.0000 Z-0.1000
N0017 G03 X1.5008 Y2.0050 I-0.0050 J0.0000
N0019 G01 X0.7508 Y2.0050 Z-0.1000
N0021 G03 X0.7458 Y2.0000 I0.0000 J-0.0050
N0023 G01 X0.7458 Y0.5000 Z-0.1000
N0025 G02 X0.5008 Y0.2550 I-0.2450 J0.0000
N0027 G01 X-0.1792 Y0.2550 Z-0.1000
N0029 G01 X-0.1792 Y0.2450 Z-0.1000
N0031 G00 X-0.1792 Y0.2450 Z0.1000
N0033 G00 X0.9192 Y0.4250 Z0.1000
N0035 G01 X0.9192 Y0.4250 Z-0.1000 F5.00
N0037 G01 X1.3258 Y0.4250 Z-0.1000 F20.00
N0039 G01 X1.3258 Y1.8250 Z-0.1000
N0041 G01 X0.9258 Y1.8250 Z-0.1000
N0043 G01 X0.9258 Y0.5000 Z-0.1000
N0045 G02 X0.9192 Y0.4250 I-0.4250 J0.0000
N0047 G01 X1.1058 Y0.6050 Z-0.1000
N0049 G01 X1.1458 Y0.6050 Z-0.1000
N0051 G01 X1.1458 Y1.6450 Z-0.1000
N0053 G01 X1.1058 Y1.6450 Z-0.1000
N0055 G01 X1.1058 Y0.6050 Z-0.1000
N0057 G00 X1.1058 Y0.6050 Z0.1000
N0059 G00 X-0.1792 Y0.2450 Z0.1000
N0061 G01 X-0.1792 Y0.2450 Z-0.2000 F5.00
N0063 G01 X1.5008 Y0.2450 Z-0.2000 F20.00
N0065 G03 X1.5058 Y0.2500 I0.0000 J0.0050
N0067 G01 X1.5058 Y2.0000 Z-0.2000
N0069 G03 X1.5008 Y2.0050 I-0.0050 J0.0000
N0071 G01 X0.7508 Y2.0050 Z-0.2000
N0073 G03 X0.7458 Y2.0000 I0.0000 J-0.0050
N0075 G01 X0.7458 Y0.5000 Z-0.2000
N0077 G02 X0.5008 Y0.2550 I-0.2450 J0.0000
N0079 G01 X-0.1792 Y0.2550 Z-0.2000
N0081 G01 X-0.1792 Y0.2450 Z-0.2000
N0083 G00 X-0.1792 Y0.2450 Z0.1000
N0085 G00 X0.9192 Y0.4250 Z0.1000
N0087 G01 X0.9192 Y0.4250 Z-0.2000 F5.00
N0089 G01 X1.3258 Y0.4250 Z-0.2000 F20.00
N0091 G01 X1.3258 Y1.8250 Z-0.2000
N0093 G01 X0.9258 Y1.8250 Z-0.2000
N0095 G01 X0.9258 Y0.5000 Z-0.2000
N0097 G02 X0.9192 Y0.4250 I-0.4250 J0.0000
N0099 G01 X1.1058 Y0.6050 Z-0.2000
N0101 G01 X1.1458 Y0.6050 Z-0.2000
N0103 G01 X1.1458 Y1.6450 Z-0.2000
N0105 G01 X1.1058 Y1.6450 Z-0.2000
N0107 G01 X1.1058 Y0.6050 Z-0.2000
N0109 G00 X1.1058 Y0.6050 Z0.1000
N0111 G00 X-0.1792 Y0.2450 Z0.1000
N0113 G01 X-0.1792 Y0.2450 Z-0.3000 F5.00
N0115 G01 X1.5008 Y0.2450 Z-0.3000 F20.00
N0117 G03 X1.5058 Y0.2500 I0.0000 J0.0050
N0119 G01 X1.5058 Y2.0000 Z-0.3000
N0121 G03 X1.5008 Y2.0050 I-0.0050 J0.0000
N0123 G01 X0.7508 Y2.0050 Z-0.3000
N0125 G03 X0.7458 Y2.0000 I0.0000 J-0.0050
N0127 G01 X0.7458 Y0.5000 Z-0.3000
N0129 G02 X0.5008 Y0.2550 I-0.2450 J0.0000
N0131 G01 X-0.1792 Y0.2550 Z-0.3000
N0133 G01 X-0.1792 Y0.2450 Z-0.3000
N0135 G00 X-0.1792 Y0.2450 Z0.1000
N0137 G00 X0.9192 Y0.4250 Z0.1000
N0139 G01 X0.9192 Y0.4250 Z-0.3000 F5.00
N0141 G01 X1.3258 Y0.4250 Z-0.3000 F20.00
N0143 G01 X1.3258 Y1.8250 Z-0.3000
N0145 G01 X0.9258 Y1.8250 Z-0.3000
N0147 G01 X0.9258 Y0.5000 Z-0.3000
N0149 G02 X0.9192 Y0.4250 I-0.4250 J0.0000
N0151 G01 X1.1058 Y0.6050 Z-0.3000
N0153 G01 X1.1458 Y0.6050 Z-0.3000
N0155 G01 X1.1458 Y1.6450 Z-0.3000
N0157 G01 X1.1058 Y1.6450 Z-0.3000
N0159 G01 X1.1058 Y0.6050 Z-0.3000
N0161 G00 X1.1058 Y0.6050 Z0.1000
N0163 G00 X-0.1792 Y0.2450 Z0.1000
N0165 G01 X-0.1792 Y0.2450 Z-0.4000 F5.00
N0167 G01 X1.5008 Y0.2450 Z-0.4000 F20.00
N0169 G03 X1.5058 Y0.2500 I0.0000 J0.0050
N0171 G01 X1.5058 Y2.0000 Z-0.4000
N0173 G03 X1.5008 Y2.0050 I-0.0050 J0.0000
N0175 G01 X0.7508 Y2.0050 Z-0.4000
N0177 G03 X0.7458 Y2.0000 I0.0000 J-0.0050
N0179 G01 X0.7458 Y0.5000 Z-0.4000
N0181 G02 X0.5008 Y0.2550 I-0.2450 J0.0000
N0183 G01 X-0.1792 Y0.2550 Z-0.4000
N0185 G01 X-0.1792 Y0.2450 Z-0.4000
N0187 G00 X-0.1792 Y0.2450 Z0.1000
N0189 G00 X0.9192 Y0.4250 Z0.1000
N0191 G01 X0.9192 Y0.4250 Z-0.4000 F5.00
N0193 G01 X1.3258 Y0.4250 Z-0.4000 F20.00
N0195 G01 X1.3258 Y1.8250 Z-0.4000
N0197 G01 X0.9258 Y1.8250 Z-0.4000
N0199 G01 X0.9258 Y0.5000 Z-0.4000
N0201 G02 X0.9192 Y0.4250 I-0.4250 J0.0000
N0203 G01 X1.1058 Y0.6050 Z-0.4000
N0205 G01 X1.1458 Y0.6050 Z-0.4000
N0207 G01 X1.1458 Y1.6450 Z-0.4000
N0209 G01 X1.1058 Y1.6450 Z-0.4000
N0211 G01 X1.1058 Y0.6050 Z-0.4000
N0213 G00 X1.1058 Y0.6050 Z0.1000
N0215 G00 X0 Y0
M5

(Created 6:40:45 PM 11/16/2007 from home switch cover x and y outside profile holes.dxf)
(Post = ISO G-Code - Non Modal)
(Tool 6 = )

N0003 T6 M6
G55
M3 S4000
N0005 G81 X1.2508 Y0.7300 Z-0.5500 R0.1000 F5.00
N0007 X0.8358 Y1.5950
N0009 G00 X0.8358 Y1.5950 Z0.1000
N0011 G00 X0 Y0
N0013 M05

N0001 G90 G54
N0003 T4 M6
N0005 G00 X-0.1242 Y0.5000 Z0.1000
M3 S4000
N0007 G00 X-0.1242 Y0.5000 Z0.1000
N0009 G01 X-0.1242 Y0.5000 Z-0.1100 F5.00
N0011 G01 X-0.1242 Y0.0000 Z-0.1100 F20.00
N0013 G03 X0.0008 Y-0.1250 I0.1250 J0.0000
N0015 G01 X1.6258 Y-0.1250 Z-0.1100
N0017 G03 X1.8758 Y0.1250 I0.0000 J0.2500
N0019 G01 X1.8758 Y2.1250 Z-0.1100
N0021 G03 X1.6258 Y2.3750 I-0.2500 J0.0000
N0023 G01 X0.6258 Y2.3750 Z-0.1100
N0025 G03 X0.3758 Y2.1250 I0.0000 J-0.2500
N0027 G01 X0.3758 Y0.6250 Z-0.1100
N0029 G01 X0.0008 Y0.6250 Z-0.1100
N0031 G03 X-0.1242 Y0.5000 I0.0000 J-0.1250
N0033 G01 X-0.1242 Y0.5000 Z-0.2200 F5.00
N0035 G01 X-0.1242 Y0.0000 Z-0.2200 F20.00
N0037 G03 X0.0008 Y-0.1250 I0.1250 J0.0000
N0039 G01 X1.6258 Y-0.1250 Z-0.2200
N0041 G03 X1.8758 Y0.1250 I0.0000 J0.2500
N0043 G01 X1.8758 Y2.1250 Z-0.2200
N0045 G03 X1.6258 Y2.3750 I-0.2500 J0.0000
N0047 G01 X0.6258 Y2.3750 Z-0.2200
N0049 G03 X0.3758 Y2.1250 I0.0000 J-0.2500
N0051 G01 X0.3758 Y0.6250 Z-0.2200
N0053 G01 X0.0008 Y0.6250 Z-0.2200
N0055 G03 X-0.1242 Y0.5000 I0.0000 J-0.1250
N0057 G01 X-0.1242 Y0.5000 Z-0.3300 F5.00
N0059 G01 X-0.1242 Y0.0000 Z-0.3300 F20.00
N0061 G03 X0.0008 Y-0.1250 I0.1250 J0.0000
N0063 G01 X1.6258 Y-0.1250 Z-0.3300
N0065 G03 X1.8758 Y0.1250 I0.0000 J0.2500
N0067 G01 X1.8758 Y2.1250 Z-0.3300
N0069 G03 X1.6258 Y2.3750 I-0.2500 J0.0000
N0071 G01 X0.6258 Y2.3750 Z-0.3300
N0073 G03 X0.3758 Y2.1250 I0.0000 J-0.2500
N0075 G01 X0.3758 Y0.6250 Z-0.3300
N0077 G01 X0.0008 Y0.6250 Z-0.3300
N0079 G03 X-0.1242 Y0.5000 I0.0000 J-0.1250
N0081 G01 X-0.1242 Y0.5000 Z-0.4400 F5.00
N0083 G01 X-0.1242 Y0.0000 Z-0.4400 F20.00
N0085 G03 X0.0008 Y-0.1250 I0.1250 J0.0000
N0087 G01 X1.6258 Y-0.1250 Z-0.4400
N0089 G03 X1.8758 Y0.1250 I0.0000 J0.2500
N0091 G01 X1.8758 Y2.1250 Z-0.4400
N0093 G03 X1.6258 Y2.3750 I-0.2500 J0.0000
N0095 G01 X0.6258 Y2.3750 Z-0.4400
N0097 G03 X0.3758 Y2.1250 I0.0000 J-0.2500
N0099 G01 X0.3758 Y0.6250 Z-0.4400
N0101 G01 X0.0008 Y0.6250 Z-0.4400
N0103 G03 X-0.1242 Y0.5000 I0.0000 J-0.1250
N0105 G01 X-0.1242 Y0.5000 Z-0.5500 F5.00
N0107 G01 X-0.1242 Y0.0000 Z-0.5500 F20.00
N0109 G03 X0.0008 Y-0.1250 I0.1250 J0.0000
N0111 G01 X1.6258 Y-0.1250 Z-0.5500
N0113 G03 X1.8758 Y0.1250 I0.0000 J0.2500
N0115 G01 X1.8758 Y2.1250 Z-0.5500
N0117 G03 X1.6258 Y2.3750 I-0.2500 J0.0000
N0119 G01 X0.6258 Y2.3750 Z-0.5500
N0121 G03 X0.3758 Y2.1250 I0.0000 J-0.2500
N0123 G01 X0.3758 Y0.6250 Z-0.5500
N0125 G01 X0.0008 Y0.6250 Z-0.5500
N0127 G03 X-0.1242 Y0.5000 I0.0000 J-0.1250
N0129 G00 X-0.1242 Y0.5000 Z0.1000
N0131 G00 X0 Y0
N0133 M05
N0135 M02

TacPyro

04-10-2009, 05:10 PM

I watched the Artsoft video and I think that I understand the offsets a little better. Just to solidify the process for myself I fired up the equipment for a test. First I opened the offsets page and touched off X, Y, and Z. Next I opened a wizard file, filled in all parameters except anything involving the position of the work in relation to the table or tool. I wrote the code to Mach and then hit the Regen Toolpath button. Magically the software inserted my G55 code and the mill was reset with the new work location.

Also, when I send all axes home Z goes up, X goes right, and Y goes towards the back of the mill. Is this the desired movement, or are any of these reversed. I know that Z is correct.

I have yet to actually do any CAD/CAM work so a question that I have is, would this process work for any code that you open with Mach? For example, lets say that we design a part in CAD. Next we do the CAM work and copy the new code to Mach. Can we now simply hit the Regen Toolpath button and the proper offsets will be put in place? This is of course assuming that we have chosen the proper offsets from the offsets menu, G54, G55 etc that coincide with our part. Or do we actually need to edit the code with our offset code? Is there a proper format for this?

I am very interested in engraving with the mill. What would be good software and tooling for this type of operation? The high spindle speed is 6k.

Lastly, is BobCAD/CAM really that bad?

escott76

04-10-2009, 05:19 PM

I watched the Artsoft video and I think that I understand the offsets a little better. Just to solidify the process for myself I fired up the equipment for a test. First I opened the offsets page and touched off X, Y, and Z. Next I opened a wizard file, filled in all parameters except anything involving the position of the work in relation to the table or tool. I wrote the code to Mach and then hit the Regen Code button. Magically the software inserted my G55 code and the mill was reset with the new work location.

Also, when I send all axes home Z goes up, X goes right, and Y goes towards the back of the mill. Is this the desired movement, or are any of these reversed. I know that Z is correct.

I have yet to actually do any CAD/CAM work so a question that I have is, would this process work for any code that you open with Mach? For example, lets say that we design a part in CAD. Next we do the CAM work and copy the new code to Mach. Can we now simply hit the Regen Code button and the proper offsets will be put in place? This is of course assuming that we have chosen the proper offsets from the offsets menu, G54, G55 etc that coincide with our part. Or do we actually need to edit the code with our offset code? Is there a proper format for this?

I am very interested in engraving with the mill. What would be good software and tooling for this type of operation?

Lastly, is BobCAD/CAM really that bad?

I don't know anything about BobCAD. I use a different program entirely, but the concept is the same. CAM programs will ask you for your offsets, OR you can program without a work offset, and then simply hand insert "G54" or whatever your offset is into the code.
A knowledge of G code will be helpful as you will need to hand edit code at times. Again, the Mach manual contains a summary of what all these codes do, their format and structure.

TacPyro

04-10-2009, 05:36 PM

For those experienced out there, where do you usually find that you have to had edit code, and why?

hoss2006

04-10-2009, 07:52 PM

For those experienced out there, where do you usually find that you have to had edit code, and why?

All the time.
CAM helps make the part code but it doesn't always handle everything, like the offset codes.
You want to be in the habit of adding the G55 for example to your program, so 6 months from now,
you don't have to remember what offset you used, the code will do it for you.
Feedrates, depths, speeds, whatever might need tweaking.
You can add some of the common codes listed at the start of each program (which the CAM might forget) in the initialization string.
Under general config you can have it run after each reset.
Common ones are G17 G20 G40 G49 G50 G54 G80 G90 G94.
Editing is just part of the job.
By the way, you have the homing directions correct at least as is typical with Mach.
Hoss

hoss2006

04-10-2009, 08:01 PM

Another thing, you might want to add notes to yourself ( in parenthesis )
about what tool diameter you used or what the offset specs were.
Hard to remember that stuff down the road.
Hoss

Bubba

04-10-2009, 08:06 PM

Instead of modding each and every one of my files, I modded the post for my cam program (Sheetcam) and thank goodness I am able to do that!

This allows me to put in the normal changes that I make all the time and not worry about it.

TacPyro

04-11-2009, 10:58 AM

Hoss, will Mach just skip over items in the beginning of the code such as personal notes and just continue on to language that it understands?

Any comments on engraving software and hardware would be great.

Thank you very much everyone for the help so far.

hoss2006

04-11-2009, 12:34 PM

Anything you write inside parenthesis anywhere in the program will be ignored.

2linc.com (http://www.2linc.com/) has everything for engraving.
if you're looking for material to engrave like the 2 layer plastic used for name tags and such check out panterials.com (http://panterials.com/rotary_engraving_materials/index.shtml).
I have some strips to make permanent labels for the mill console, ONE day.:)
A free text engraving program I use is Deskengrave (http://deskam.com/deskengrave.html).
It can use any windows font and spit out the gcode.
I picked up some 60 degree cutters from Harvey Tool (http://www.harveytool.com/products/search.php?keyword=engraving).
Hoss

BobWarfield

04-11-2009, 03:46 PM

Thanks for the referrals on engraving supplies, Hoss. I added them to my supplier links page:

http://www.cnccookbook.com/CCResourcesSup.htm

Cheers,

BW

TacPyro

04-11-2009, 07:39 PM

Hoss, thank you again for the leads on engraving things.

I have downloaded Deskengrave which seems nice for free software, however when I save a the file as DNC, it doesn't open correctly in Mach.
The only options to save from Deskengrave are "as G code, which saves the file as a DNC, or as a DXF file. The DXF file didn't work either.
When I would save the file as G code (DNC), sporadic straight lines would show up where the text should be but that's it.

Any advice on this issue? Hoss?

Teyber12

04-11-2009, 08:05 PM

What if you try to open up the dnc file in text, then rename it .txt?
im not sure what a dnc file is so maybe not :(

TacPyro

04-11-2009, 09:50 PM

Teyber, I renamed the file as a .txt file nut it's still a no go. After that I renamed it as a .tap file and that actually created a G code file that somewhat resembled rough letters, however nothing marginally close to what it should have been.

Here is a snippet of a DNC file representing the letter "G". The character in Mach looks like a G but is very blocky.

G90 T0 F15.0
N2 G00 Z0.5
N3 G00 X0.1 Y0.4
N5 G01 Z0.0 F5.0
N6 F15.0
N7 X0.1 Y0.4
N8 X0.1 Y0.5
N9 X0.1 Y0.5
N10 X0.1 Y0.6
N11 X0.1 Y0.6
N12 X0.1 Y0.7
N13 X0.1 Y0.7
N14 X0.1 Y0.7
N15 X0.2 Y0.8
N16 X0.2 Y0.8
N17 X0.2 Y0.8
N18 X0.2 Y0.9
N19 X0.3 Y0.9
N20 X0.3 Y0.9
N21 X0.3 Y0.9
N22 X0.4 Y0.9
N23 X0.4 Y0.9
N24 X0.5 Y0.9
N25 X0.5 Y0.9
N26 X0.5 Y0.9
N27 X0.6 Y0.9
N28 X0.6 Y0.9
N29 X0.6 Y0.9
N30 X0.6 Y0.8
N31 X0.7 Y0.8
N32 X0.7 Y0.8
N33 X0.7 Y0.8
N34 X0.7 Y0.8
N35 X0.7 Y0.7
N36 X0.7 Y0.7
N37 X0.7 Y0.7
N38 X0.8 Y0.7
N39 X0.8 Y0.6
N40 X0.6 Y0.6
N41 X0.6 Y0.6
N42 X0.6 Y0.7
N43 X0.6 Y0.7

Here is the file renamed as a .tap file of the same "G" character. The letter is still very blocky and looks the same as the .dnc file.

G90 T0 F15.0
N2 G00 Z0.5
N3 G00 X0.1 Y0.4
N5 G01 Z0.0 F5.0
N6 F15.0
N7 X0.1 Y0.4
N8 X0.1 Y0.5
N9 X0.1 Y0.5
N10 X0.1 Y0.6
N11 X0.1 Y0.6
N12 X0.1 Y0.7
N13 X0.1 Y0.7
N14 X0.1 Y0.7
N15 X0.2 Y0.8
N16 X0.2 Y0.8
N17 X0.2 Y0.8
N18 X0.2 Y0.9
N19 X0.3 Y0.9
N20 X0.3 Y0.9
N21 X0.3 Y0.9
N22 X0.4 Y0.9
N23 X0.4 Y0.9
N24 X0.5 Y0.9
N25 X0.5 Y0.9
N26 X0.5 Y0.9
N27 X0.6 Y0.9
N28 X0.6 Y0.9
N29 X0.6 Y0.9
N30 X0.6 Y0.8
N31 X0.7 Y0.8
N32 X0.7 Y0.8
N33 X0.7 Y0.8
N34 X0.7 Y0.8
N35 X0.7 Y0.7
N36 X0.7 Y0.7

I'm pretty sure that there is some code missing, but I can't figure out why. Am I missing something in the software?

hoss2006

04-11-2009, 10:05 PM

Awesome Links page Bob!

Mach 3 opens the .Dnc files no problem, I've run lots of programs.
You could just rename them to .txt as Teyber suggested, they still work.
Did you have the Parameters set for enough decimal places?

One thing about Desk Engrave is that it actually makes an outline of the font.
Single line fonts are preferred a lot of times.
Free ones are tough to find.
Desk Engrave comes with Stick40 that it uses by default when you first open it
but as you can see it's not a true single line, but close.
Another free program that has just one single line font is Stick Font (http://www.ncplot.com/) from Ncplot.com.
The Write wizard that comes with Mach 3 has several single lines, a total of 14 fonts, real cool.
Hoss

hoss2006

04-11-2009, 10:12 PM

TacPyro

04-12-2009, 01:12 AM

I changed the decimals to 4 and the precision to 10 and now it works great!

What exactly does the precision setting control?

hoss2006

04-12-2009, 02:37 AM

I changed the decimals to 4 and the precision to 10 and now it works great!

What exactly does the precision setting control?

"Precision

Enter the number of line segments each spline in a TTF is broken into. A higher value will increase the accuracy of the saved files while increasing the overall size of the saved files."

It'll give smoother arcs but with more lines of code.
the files below are an example of the number 0, the first is 4 precision, the second is 10 precision.
the higher number will look a lot better for large engravings.

0@4 precision

G90 T0 F10.0
N0 G00 Z0.5000
N1 G00 X0.4141 Y0.9102
N3 G01 Z-0.0500 F2.0
N4 F10.0
N5 X0.4561 Y0.8945
N6 X0.4980 Y0.8662
N7 X0.5381 Y0.8271
N8 X0.5732 Y0.7715
N9 X0.5996 Y0.6934
N10 X0.6172 Y0.5938
N11 X0.6270 Y0.4707
N12 X0.6221 Y0.3604
N13 X0.6084 Y0.2686
N14 X0.5840 Y0.1934
N15 X0.5508 Y0.1357
N16 X0.5107 Y0.0938
N17 X0.4678 Y0.0635
N18 X0.4209 Y0.0459
N19 X0.3711 Y0.0410
N20 X0.3174 Y0.0439
N21 X0.2686 Y0.0596
N22 X0.2236 Y0.0889
N23 X0.1826 Y0.1318
N24 X0.1484 Y0.1904
N25 X0.1250 Y0.2656
N26 X0.1123 Y0.3594
N27 X0.1094 Y0.4707
N28 X0.1152 Y0.5781
N29 X0.1309 Y0.6729
N30 X0.1572 Y0.7539
N31 X0.1934 Y0.8223
N32 X0.2373 Y0.8623
N33 X0.2813 Y0.8916
N34 X0.3252 Y0.9092
N35 X0.3691 Y0.9160
N36 X0.4141 Y0.9102
N37 X0.4141 Y0.9102
N38 X0.3701 Y0.9160
N39 X0.3252 Y0.9092
N40 G00 Z0.5000

0@10 precision

G90 T0 F10.0
N0 G00 Z0.5000
N1 G00 X0.3877 Y0.9150
N3 G01 Z-0.0500 F2.0
N4 F10.0
N5 X0.4053 Y0.9121
N6 X0.4219 Y0.9082
N7 X0.4395 Y0.9023
N8 X0.4561 Y0.8945
N9 X0.4727 Y0.8848
N10 X0.4893 Y0.8730
N11 X0.5059 Y0.8594
N12 X0.5215 Y0.8447
N13 X0.5381 Y0.8271
N14 X0.5527 Y0.8076
N15 X0.5664 Y0.7852
N16 X0.5791 Y0.7578
N17 X0.5898 Y0.7275
N18 X0.5996 Y0.6934
N19 X0.6074 Y0.6563
N20 X0.6143 Y0.6152
N21 X0.6201 Y0.5703
N22 X0.6240 Y0.5225
N23 X0.6270 Y0.4707
N24 X0.6260 Y0.4248
N25 X0.6240 Y0.3809
N26 X0.6201 Y0.3408
N27 X0.6152 Y0.3037
N28 X0.6084 Y0.2686
N29 X0.5996 Y0.2363
N30 X0.5898 Y0.2070
N31 X0.5781 Y0.1807
N32 X0.5654 Y0.1572
N33 X0.5508 Y0.1357
N34 X0.5352 Y0.1172
N35 X0.5195 Y0.1006
N36 X0.5029 Y0.0859
N37 X0.4854 Y0.0742
N38 X0.4678 Y0.0635
N39 X0.4492 Y0.0547
N40 X0.4307 Y0.0479
N41 X0.4111 Y0.0439
N42 X0.3916 Y0.0410
N43 X0.3711 Y0.0410
N44 X0.3496 Y0.0400
N45 X0.3281 Y0.0420
N46 X0.3076 Y0.0459
N47 X0.2881 Y0.0518
N48 X0.2686 Y0.0596
N49 X0.2500 Y0.0703
N50 X0.2314 Y0.0820
N51 X0.2148 Y0.0967
N52 X0.1982 Y0.1133
N53 X0.1826 Y0.1318
N54 X0.1680 Y0.1533
N55 X0.1543 Y0.1768
N56 X0.1436 Y0.2041
N57 X0.1338 Y0.2334
N58 X0.1250 Y0.2656
N59 X0.1191 Y0.3018
N60 X0.1143 Y0.3398
N61 X0.1113 Y0.3809
N62 X0.1094 Y0.4238
N63 X0.1094 Y0.4707
N64 X0.1104 Y0.5156
N65 X0.1133 Y0.5576
N66 X0.1172 Y0.5977
N67 X0.1230 Y0.6367
N68 X0.1309 Y0.6729
N69 X0.1396 Y0.7070
N70 X0.1514 Y0.7383
N71 X0.1631 Y0.7686
N72 X0.1777 Y0.7969
N73 X0.1934 Y0.8223
N74 X0.2109 Y0.8398
N75 X0.2285 Y0.8555
N76 X0.2461 Y0.8691
N77 X0.2637 Y0.8809
N78 X0.2813 Y0.8916
N79 X0.2988 Y0.9004
N80 X0.3164 Y0.9063
N81 X0.3340 Y0.9111
N82 X0.3516 Y0.9141
N83 X0.3701 Y0.9160
N84 X0.3877 Y0.9150
N85 X0.3877 Y0.9150
N86 X0.3691 Y0.9160
N87 X0.3516 Y0.9141
N88 G00 Z0.5000
N89 G00 X0.4053 Y0.9121
N91 G01 Z-0.0500 F2.0
N92 F10.0
N93 X0.4229 Y0.9082
N94 X0.4395 Y0.9023
N95 G00 Z0.5000

TacPyro

04-12-2009, 02:46 AM

That makes sense. Thank you again, Hoss for a fine explanation.

BobWarfield

04-12-2009, 11:07 AM

FWIW, a lot of the CAD programs these days can also generate curves and solids using any Windows font. Once you have the curves, your CAM program can convert those to g-codes.

Here is an example from the CAD I use, Rhino3D:

http://www.cnccookbook.com/img/CNCCookbook/RhinoHossBoss.jpg

With my CAM program I could either cut a series of inside pockets, or I could have the cutter trace those outlines.

I hear great things about VCarve being able to take arbitrary bitmaps and convert them to g-codes too. That's something I want to try some day.

Best,

BW

dang

04-12-2009, 10:48 PM

This is amazing! 20 minutes later and I already have my machine air writing in a Robocop font. Wonderful discovery Hoss. Thanks for blogging Bob. Big ups!

TacPyro

04-14-2009, 12:05 PM

hoss2006

04-15-2009, 03:58 AM

What are peoples thoughts on Machs axis calibration option located in the bottom left corner of the settings page, just above the reset button? It seems like an easy way to calibrate the axis once the basic stepper and screw settings have been entered.
Does anyone have any experience with this feature, and how did you set up your measurements?

Never noticed that, leave it to the GENIUS of Artsoft to think of everything. Good eyes Tac.
I'll have to remake my calibration video, to heck with doing the math and editing the motor tuning, just let Mach do it!
You still have to check it against something physical to compare,
like I did in the video checking the length of the parallel.
A quick way would be to just use a dial indicator but that's not going to be very accurate, maybe .001/inch.
In my case, the X was only off .0015 in 6 inches (.00025/inch), that wouldn't be easy to pick up on the dial indicator.
Hoss

Astroguy

04-15-2009, 12:46 PM

How is the lathe conversion coming along? I just ordered a 10 X 22 myself and will be watching this thread so I can convert mine as well. :)

TacPyro

04-15-2009, 12:46 PM

I'm going to give the calibration wizard a shot this evening, so we'll see how it goes.

After looking at the mill for a while I am wondering, how does one tram an X3 style mill without a tilting head? Any help on this would be great!

Edit: Astroguy, I just saw your post, so we must have been posting at the same time. Anyhow, the lathe was supposed to be here the end of last month, but now Grizzly is saying that the 10x22's won't be in until May 25. Go figure. I bet it's those damn pirates! What time frame did Grizzly quote you on your lathe?

I'll keep the thread updated as to the status of the lathe.

Astroguy

04-15-2009, 01:43 PM

Teyber12

04-15-2009, 04:16 PM

people shim where the column screws into the base. Do you need to tram it?

Crevice Reamer

04-15-2009, 04:59 PM

You still have to check it against something physical to compare,
like I did in the video checking the length of the parallel.
A quick way would be to just use a dial indicator but that's not going to be very accurate, maybe .001/inch.

Turn OFF the Auto Axis Zero in Mach. Home the axis and set to zero. Run the axis out as much as possible and then home it. If it is in calibration, it will still READ zero at home. If not, you will readily see the amount it is off by what the DRO DOES indicate.

CR.

TacPyro

04-15-2009, 05:45 PM

I don't know if it needs traming, just curious how it would be done. After hearing about how to do it, I sure hope that I don't need to.
I am assuming that people don't tram these types of machines very much then?

hoss2006

04-15-2009, 05:46 PM

Turn OFF the Auto Axis Zero in Mach. Home the axis and set to zero. Run the axis out as much as possible and then home it. If it is in calibration, it will still READ zero at home. If not, you will readily see the amount it is off by what the DRO DOES indicate.

CR.

That is NOT what I was talking about, you got it wrong AGAIN.
You WILL see when I make a new video.
You are just repeating what I said previously to check for missing steps.
If you think your system is missing steps, run it home (zeroed) uncheck auto zero, rapid the axis back and forth, then send it home again.
If the DRO doesn't read zero, then you have a motor problem, slow down the velocity.
Hoss

TacPyro

04-15-2009, 06:01 PM

So Hoss, I just checked again, and I must have had a brain fart in my previous post about this, but my table goes left in X, back in Y, and up in Z when I home the axis. Is X abnormal?

hoss2006

04-15-2009, 06:39 PM

So Hoss, I just checked again, and I must have had a brain fart in my previous post about this, but my table goes left in X, back in Y, and up in Z when I home the axis. Is X abnormal?

Yep, the X is backwards, in post #74 you can see my settings with the Home Neg boxes checked for the X and Y.
I found the first part of this video (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vy6prGNNxAM&feature=channel_page) shows the machine in the Home position.
Hoss

Crevice Reamer

04-16-2009, 10:29 AM

That is NOT what I was talking about, you got it wrong AGAIN.
You WILL see when I make a new video.
You are just repeating what I said previously to check for missing steps.

Hoss

Nope! Not wrong and NOT repeating anything you said. The method only works though if your axes have zero backlash like mine do.

CR.

BobWarfield

04-16-2009, 12:23 PM

Crevice, Hoss is right.

Your method can't work to calibrate steps per inch. You're using the Mach3 DRO to measure both directions. The calibration affects the DRO's accuracy as well. The error affects both directions, and so is ignored. The only thing the DRO motion you suggest will detect is lost motion due to lost steps or backlash.

Tacpyro, listen to Hoss, or better yet, watch his video. The methods described work well.

Cheers,

BW

TacPyro

04-16-2009, 12:24 PM

hoss2006

04-16-2009, 02:38 PM

When I am using a 3/8" 2 flute HSS endmill to surface a piece of aluminum, the surface has very small ridges (.001 high) left in it at some points. Do these types of endmills usually leave rougher finishes when using them to prepare a surface?

Is it a ridge along the edge of each cut between each pass?
that would be a tramming issue.
Bob has several articles (http://www.cnccookbook.com/) on tramming.
These pages cover the procedure quite well, the basic process is the same for any mill.
http://www.mini-lathe.org.uk/tramming-micro-mill.shtml
http://www.fignoggle.com/machines/x2mill/howTo-tramHeadX.htm
Hoss

Matt McColley

04-16-2009, 04:16 PM

I see two possibilites causing your problem:

1. the axis of your cutting tool is not perfectly perpendicular to the plane of the part. So each pass of the end mill cuts a little high on one side and a little low on the other. This error is effectively doubled when you make a second pass, as you see the high side of the first pass compared to the low side of the second pass. Tramming your mill head can take the error out.

or.

2. the tool or head is flexing during the cutting operation..... using a shorter end mill, bracing the collumn (see how Crevice Reemer did it) and using a slower feed speed may all help

You may also consider using a fly cutter to surface the part (very light pass)

my $.02.... worth exactly what you paid for it

stream the MIT machine shop training videos (free) linked by someone who responded to my thread about smartflix. I'm on the seventh one and they are Awesome for newbies (like me)

TacPyro

04-17-2009, 12:03 PM

I was originally thinking that it was an issue with the head alignment and thus my questions about tramming, however the ridges aren't uniform. Some areas of the part are smooth and others have very light ridges. (2 flute HSS 3/8" endmill 15 IPM, depth .01)
Is there a somewhat straight forward way to tram a square column mill that doesn't have a tilting head?

hoss2006

04-17-2009, 12:44 PM

Is there a somewhat straight forward way to tram a square column mill that doesn't have a tilting head?

http://www.duwaynesplace.com/tramming_mill.html

TacPyro

04-18-2009, 10:56 AM

I decided to look further into tramming the Novakon NM135. To do this I needed to make a tool to mount my dial test indicator.
http://i302.photobucket.com/albums/nn103/Karmaarma/001.jpg
The tool mounts the indicator on one end of the arm with a set screw and has two holes additional holes near the indicator, and the opposite end to mount to the spindle. The end hole is used to measure X, the hole nearest the indicator to measure Y.

The spindle wasn't off much, maybe a couple of thousandths over 3 to 6 inches.

Just to confirm, these are the bolts that hold the column to the base, correct? What is the little screw (maybe it is just a threaded insert) in between the two larger bolts?
http://i302.photobucket.com/albums/nn103/Karmaarma/002.jpg

They don't make it very easy to tram these things for sure. Some kind of filler has been used to smooth the gap between the base and column, and I think that they may have used some kind of thread locker to secure the bolts as I have yet to be able to get them loose. I think that it would have been easier if they had used regular hex head bolts in this location.
At this point I have somewhat trammed the head. I picked up some brass shim stock from .001 up to .32. Once I get the column bolts loose I should be able to get the spindle better centered.

Teyber12

04-18-2009, 11:27 AM

Hey there!
There are 2 of those large bolts on eitehr side.

The little hole only has to do with aligning the column- it has a little pin on the bottum of it and a hole in the base of the mill.
My column is apart right now so ill snag some pics for you. brb.

There are more places you could tram the mill i think? im sure you said it but are you out of tram front/rear or left/right? (left right looking straight at it) where the head mounts against a plate which attatches to the column you could loosen it up and wiggle it on side or another which would help with the left/right tram

BobWarfield

04-18-2009, 11:39 AM

Before you try any shimming, make sure you've leveled the machine. It makes a big difference. On my IH, leveling took a 0.009" tram error down to 0.002", which was very minor to take care of with shims.

Leveling makes a big difference!

Cheers,

BW

pete from TN

04-18-2009, 12:47 PM

If your machine is anything like mine the joint where the column and base meet is completely and totally smeared with bondo and primer so that when you actually break the seam open it cracks and makes the paint job look like crapola... I really do not understand their affliction with copious amounts of bondo to make what looks like a decent casting look like an amateurish paint job with lumps and bumps everywhere. Since I stripped my machine down I am really happy with the way the bare casting looks painted and now If I have to tram the column it will be easy to cut the paint with a razor knife and do what I gotta do. I would highly recommend you do the same before you loosen these bolts, cut to the seam with a razor knife and try to make a seam in the bondo that will hopefully not crack the paint all to hell on ya... After that it should be easy to loosen the bolts a tad and then push on the column to lift it enough to get your shim stock in there. Good luck...

Bob, I am confused about your leveling idea, While I am sure it is important to level the machine I am not sure how it will affect the tram any. If you have a level table and you get it right with adjustable feet you will be able to use machininst levels to make accurate setups on the table but other than that how could it affect the tram? Peace man...

MRM RCModels

04-18-2009, 01:03 PM

I used the same method posted by hoss to tram my X3. Don't know why I didn't do it sooner. I wondered why all my bits would chip after 10-20 hours. Found out that the head was off by .004-.005 inches in X & Y. I've enjoyed this thread and finally have a chance to add something :). I cna see how leveling the machine would improve the tram because the head has a lot of mass. If only I knew about the Novakon BEFORE buying my machine......

To level the machine try leveling casters under the stand. You could by them for 16.00 each from accesscasters.

BobWarfield

04-18-2009, 01:51 PM

How can leveling affect tram?

Because the machines are flexible. If they're level, the masses all sit where they are supposed to be according to the factory's sense when they designed and built the machine. In particular, the column is a lever with a heavy mill head on it. If it is canted because the machine isn't level, the weight is pulling the machine further out of tram.

If you put an indicator on almost any part of your machine, you'll see just how easy it is to tweak the machine by pushing on it. Leveling is just an attempt to make sure the tweaking from the machine's own weight is minimized.

Incidentally, there are some folks who will take this to the next step. They level the machine with a machinist's level, and if it is still out of tram, they will tweak the level in a way that fixes the tram instead of shimming. They'll argue the shims under the column make it less rigid. I do not personally have a strong preference either way, but I did measure the effect of leveling on my machine's tram and it was quite significant.

BW

pete from TN

04-18-2009, 02:03 PM

I can appreciate that these machines are not made of granite and do move around a bit but I never thought that a simple leveling could affect the tram. I thought it would have to be way out of level to really affect the tram since it is a kinda top dead center thing sticking up like that. The millhead is heavy and I would think that since it is levered off the front that it would be more apt to keep things straight despite a slight amount of out of level condition. You have actually been there and done that so I will take your word for it. The machine should be level anyways so it is a moot point really but I guess I never thought they were that slinky....peace

BobWarfield

04-18-2009, 02:16 PM

And consider that my mill has an epoxy granite fill down low to tighten it up too!

This shouldn't be a total surprise though. The lathe crowd is very vocal about the effects of leveling. I don't know why we don't hear about it more with mills, but it is important.

Cheers,

BW

TacPyro

04-19-2009, 01:45 PM

When I installed the mill on the bench I had it mostly level, however after reading the last few posts, I decided to get the level spot on and I must say that it did help the tramm of the mill a bit.
I am still working on shimming the rest of the mill.

TacPyro

04-21-2009, 04:09 PM

Teyber12

04-21-2009, 04:55 PM

I have been talking to Dolphin CAD CAM and they offered Mill Pro for the price of the standard mill package. I have read a lot of good things about Dolphin and have gone through some of the videos as well as played with the software a bit. I have to say that I am sold for the price. Just made the phone call and gave them a stack of money.
Can I sell my V21 BobCAD CAM license?

Sweet work! :banana: We are in the same boat hopefully we can help each other through learning it. the cad seems easy but i havn't figured out the cam yet. I really was pleased with my dolphin experience.

You can sell your v21 license.

cheers! :banana:

TacPyro

04-22-2009, 12:03 PM

Sweet work! :banana: We are in the same boat hopefully we can help each other through learning it. the cad seems easy but i havn't figured out the cam yet. I really was pleased with my dolphin experience.

You can sell your v21 license.

cheers! :banana:

Teyber, I'm all about collective learning. What techniques did you use to learn the CAD portion? I am still watching the videos and playing a bit.

How would one sell a Bob CAD v21 license?

Teyber12

04-22-2009, 04:06 PM

Ebay maybe? cncauction maybe?
What helped me with the drawing is to show grid, have the grid set to something useful for my drawing (usually 1/16" or 1/8") then snap to grid.
I just tried drawing the simplest stuff i could then tried to manipulate that then try more and more complex parts.

If you figure out the cam side of things please help me as im pretty lost on it- being new to cam.

cheers!

harley4ever

04-22-2009, 05:44 PM

Dolphin user myself and I must say that the cam is a very nice package. Once you get over the little learning curve you'll learn to love it. I had previous exp before using dolphin so it was quite easy for myself. Even though, I still dont think it will be difficult for you to pick up. Just watch the videos as they should give you a good boost.

dgoddard

04-22-2009, 07:14 PM

I use Dolphin for lathe. Use AutoCadLT and Rhino3D/Madcam for mill, also Sheetcam, all though most of the time I design in AutoCad and then use the NFS wizards in Mach3 for most all operations. For Dolphin, the learning curve can be a little tricky, however once you catch on it is a fairly straight forward program. As suggested, look at the videos and practice, practice, practice. I recommend it for the lathe, have not tried for the mill as am satisfied with what already have. Good luck.

TacPyro

04-22-2009, 10:54 PM

Teyber12

04-23-2009, 12:38 AM

The videos are great, but much learning needs to be done.

Teyber, I will let you know if I learn anything about this before I think you do, however I think that you are further up the ladder than I am.

As for this BobCAD license deal, I don't understand how it would be done. How is the license transferred?

I bet you will get better informed responses if you post it in the bobcad forum.

Sorry its none of my business, but how come you decided to switch? sorry if you mentioned it but i couldn't find it.

Once i get a bit of the learning curve on the cam id love to call and chat with you. we both have the exact same questions it seems :rainfro:

Cheers!

TacPyro

04-23-2009, 06:44 PM

Teyber12

05-06-2009, 01:30 AM

Teyber, it does seem that we are both coming up with the same problems / questions. I have read several of your posts and most recently the one about your auto. You have my condolences brother.

Edit: I totally forgot to add that I switched to Dolphin due to a brief experience with Bob CAD and the fact that I really never read anything good about the BobCAD. It didn't make sense to put a bunch of time into a program that was possibly not going to be what I was looking for. Dolphin, on the other hand seemed like great software, and people had nothing but good things to say about it. They also gave me Pro Mill for $600, so I really couldn't say no.

hey sorry for thread bump-

But i was getting very frustrated with mach- and not getting it to do what i want. (of course my fault and i know its my fault- but frustrating non the less)

So i have spent maybe 5 hours so far reading this:
http://www.machsupport.com/docs/Mach3Mill_1.84.pdf
and im not even half way through yet. I can't believe how much good info is in there and im learning a ton- im going to say 75% of the info in there is stuff that makes you go "aha! i was wondering how that worked" and isn't super easy to find on the forums. If you could try to dedicated 1-2 hours a day and read through it (it actually isn't as boring as most manuals, i found it interesting) it could help. Im still lost as hell but working in the right direction (group)

cheers!