I have a CNC'ed X3 and a shars 4" precison vice. Nice vice, but I fight with it to much. Looking to buy a kurt like vice, <$200.

What vice do you recommend?
Which is best for the X3, a 4" or a 6"?

I have a CNC'ed X3 and a shars 4" precison vice. Nice vice, but I fight with it to much. Looking to buy a kurt like vice, <$200.

What vice do you recommend?
Which is best for the X3, a 4" or a 6"?

If I were you, I'd buy a self centering vise. Here is a link to the one I have, and it works great.

http://www.grizzly.com/products/Precision-Self-Centering-Vise/H7576

I have a 4" Kurt knock off - it seems a good size for the X3 table. It hangs over front and back but not bad. It takes a little less than half the work area of table if I have it placed to allow a 1-1/2" flycutter to clear the end of the clamping area.

My thought at the time I purchased it was the 6" would hang off the front a lot more but maybe a 6" owner will comment.

I bought a 4" quad 1 CNC vise for my KX3. It's 4" wide will open up to 4" with the jaw plates in the noraml position. and the body is less than 9" long. It can be mounted on it's sides as well since they are ground and have mounting slots in them. I got one of the old style SPI branded units from Ebay for $350, The guy that's making them now wants over $1k.

If I were you, I'd buy a self centering vise. Here is a link to the one I have, and it works great.

http://www.grizzly.com/products/Precision-Self-Centering-Vise/H7576

He's looking for something similar to a Kurt design which uses a spherical element to pull the moveable jaw down and in to keep parts tight to the bottom of the vise.
Depending on the level of precision needed you really can't compare a self centering vise with a Kurt or even several other fixed jaw vise styles. It's a matter of convenience vs. precision.
For the OP I'll be interested to see the responses you get, I'm in the market for a similar vise myself. At the moment I'm looking at a pair of 3" screwless as I have not found the one I would like in the Kurt style at the right price. I have two vises on the machine I have at work, and with a couple different soft jaw setups I can do a real lot with the pair of them.

The vise I have now is similiar to this....
http://www.shars.com/products/view/114/Precision_Toolmakers_Vise_4quot
and I cuss it more than it does work for me. Just not what I need/want.

I have been looking at this one, or similar.
http://www.shars.com/products/view/5348/6x512x134quot_Lock_Down_Precision_Milling_Machine_Vise_with_Swivel_Base

Or possibly a 4" variation of it.

A good vise is definatly a good investment even if you have to spend a bit more on it. I looked for a long time at various vises and the weighed the pros and cons of all of them. They were either too big too small too long or the quality was lacking so I just bit the bullet and ordered the one I wanted. I have a 3" screwless on my manual X3 and it works pretty good but I wanted something a bit bigger for the CNC X3. The older style Quad 1 vise does have the kurt style pull down as well.

I got my 4" version of that second link from this ebay store - http://cgi.ebay.com/4-MILLING-MACHINE-LOCKDOWN-VISE-SWIVEL-HARDENED-NEW_W0QQitemZ330306273072QQcmdZViewItemQQptZBI_Tool_Work_Holding?hash=item330306273072&_trksid=p4634.c0.m14 following that I continue to get printed Shars catalogs - I believe they're associated.

what I'm looking for is the same vice WITHOUT the swivel head.

I can't see why I would need a swivel head with CNC X & Y controls.

It's just added weight, lost room in the Z axis and additional complexity and room for something to wiggle loose.

what I'm looking for is the same vice WITHOUT the swivel head.

I can't see why I would need a swivel head with CNC X & Y controls.

It's just added weight, lost room in the Z axis and additional complexity and room for something to wiggle loose.

When I bought mine, I went to that large grizzly store in PA. I looked at all kinds of vises, including that one. I have to admit that I wasn't very impressed either. I could just see my work getting messed up because the swivel head (swiveled) when I didn't want it to.

Nope, I picked exactly what I needed, regardless of trends, and haven't regretted it once. I do however have a vise with a fixed jaw, but find that I don't reach for it very often.

It's nice to just have to set your vise up once, and then you're ready to go. The precision is acceptable in my opinion; Your millage may very though.

Smoking and drinking are my most popular vices, not so much for a milling machine, though.

As for a vise for an X3, I think a 4" Kurt Anglock (or a copy) without the swivel base, with keys ground to fit the slots in the table (saves so much time setting up the vise not having to inicate it in when reinstalling it) is the route to go. As noted above, a swivel base is a waste of money, space, and potentially rigidity, on a machine capable of linear interpolation (2 axis moves).

Joe

what I'm looking for is the same vice WITHOUT the swivel head.

I can't see why I would need a swivel head with CNC X & Y controls.

It's just added weight, lost room in the Z axis and additional complexity and room for something to wiggle loose.

Perhaps you don't realize with that style of vise, you can simply remove the vise from the swivel base, and bolt it directly to your table. That's exactly what I do my 6" vise on my knee mill. The bottom of the vise is flat and smooth for exactly this purpose.

Regards,
Ray L.

But why pay for the swivel base if it's just going to become a paperweight?

Joe

But why pay for the swivel base if it's just going to become a paperweight?

Joe

You're only "paying for it" *if* you can find a comparable vise without the swivel base for less money. Even then how much time and effort are you going to expend trying to "save" that small amount of money? And, you may still find one day the swivel would come in handy for something, in which case you've saved nothing. I'll tell you one thing the swivel base is very handy for - it allows you to align the vise jaws to your table, so that you can put the vise, with swivel, on the table, bolt it down with the mounting bolts pushed to one side of the T-slots, and *know* that the jaws essentially parallel to the table without having to check it with an indicator. This can be a real time-saver when you don't need maximum possible precision. I often use mine that way, and it is consistently within one or two thou across the 6inch width of the jaws.

Regards,
Ray L.

Ditto - mine (swivel base) is on the tool cart mostly unused since the vise is usually bolted to the table. It does make it easier setting up though as you know when you tap with the dead blow hammer that the vise is rotating around its center as opposed to the nut(s) which can be an exercise in frustration to get to an accurate position, especially when that last bit of torque always seems to add that annoying 1/5,000th.

The vise I have now is similiar to this....
http://www.shars.com/products/view/114/Precision_Toolmakers_Vise_4quot
and I cuss it more than it does work for me. Just not what I need/want.

I have been looking at this one, or similar.
http://www.shars.com/products/view/5348/6x512x134quot_Lock_Down_Precision_Milling_Machine_Vise_with_Swivel_Base

Or possibly a 4" variation of it.
i have a cheap lms vice and don't love it, been looking to machine some parts over 4" and under 5", thanks for posting that second link that looks to be a great deal! :)

the nice Shars vics that's on sale for for 100 bucks...

they want $65 to ship it.

Which of course puts them over Grizzly's price, since Grizzly only want's $17 to ship?

Grizzly doesn't quote an accuracy with their vise though

I ended up buying a 5" from Enco since it was on sale($84), we will see it is worth a crap.

Fingers crossed.

As I wrote in my first post, the vise minus the swivel base is keyed as well. Unlike the swivel base, however, the keyways machined directly in the vise will always be parallel to the fixed jaw. As for paying less for the version with the swivel base, it ain't gonna happen if you buy a Kurt. You pay more for the vise with the swivel base, period.

Joe

I posted a vise thread recently and didn't get a lot of response so I've been watching this one closely. I'm located in Calgary, Alberta, Canada. I don't have a lot of choices here and shipping a vise up from the U.S. is not probably the best choice with the weight of good vises.

What are your thoughts on these vises at BusyBee?

4" Groz

http://busybeetools.ca/cgi-bin/picture10?NTITEM=MMVSP100

4" Soba

http://busybeetools.ca/cgi-bin/picture10?NTITEM=110012

4" Soba Magic Jaw

http://busybeetools.ca/cgi-bin/picture10?NTITEM=110040


I was hoping for something in the 5" range but might have to settle for a 4". They also have a Kurt Style cheapy for around $100 but in real life it does look that good.

Cheers, Kalvin

I ended up buying a 5" from Enco since it was on sale($84), we will see it is worth a crap.

I think I bought the same one as you today....

added some other goodies to get the order over $100 and got free shipping to boot.

http://www.use-enco.com/CGI/INSRIT?PMAKA=425-7250&PMPXNO=952178&PARTPG=INLMK32

I posted a vise thread recently and didn't get a lot of response so I've been watching this one closely. I'm located in Calgary, Alberta, Canada. I don't have a lot of choices here and shipping a vise up from the U.S. is not probably the best choice with the weight of good vises.

What are your thoughts on these vises at BusyBee?

4" Groz

http://busybeetools.ca/cgi-bin/picture10?NTITEM=MMVSP100

4" Soba

http://busybeetools.ca/cgi-bin/picture10?NTITEM=110012

4" Soba Magic Jaw

http://busybeetools.ca/cgi-bin/picture10?NTITEM=110040


I was hoping for something in the 5" range but might have to settle for a 4". They also have a Kurt Style cheapy for around $100 but in real life it does look that good.

Cheers, Kalvin

Hey Kalvin,

Like I was telling you the other day, I have a GS Tooling GS-890 vice. It is a really nice vice compaired to any other import I have seen. (an understatement!)

Many machine shops use these on production machines instead of kurts.

Its probably a bit big for an X3, but GS should have something that fits

http://dev.sowatool.com/index.php?option=com_wrapper&view=wrapper&Itemid=11

I bought mine here http://www.actequipment.com/

Hi Legendboy,

Thanks for the parrallels. :)

I was actually down at ACT today. They quoted me just under 600.00 for the one I liked. They said they go on sale sometimes for around $450.00.

I decided to wait a bit until I see a sale come up. In the mean time I picked up the 4" Groz on sale at BusyBee. I just took it out of the box. It should do what I want for a while.

Despite the great packaging, I noticed a fair bit of corrosion on some of the areas. Will talk to BusyBee about this tomorrow.

http://busybeetools.ca/cgi-bin/picture10?NTITEM=MMVSP100

The 4" size fits good on the X3 table. I think a 5" would be ok but anything larger would be physically too big.

The Soba was very similar but if you removed the swivel you have a very small footprint to mount it on the table with. The Groz has a large machined footprint.

I also looked at the cheap Kurt style units. The quality was just not there.


Have a great night.

Here is some more info on the Groz vises:

http://0168a51.netsolhost.com/index.cfm?MainDisplay=Products&SubDisplay=ProductDetails&ProductID=109

The screw-less is toleranced:
http://0168a51.netsolhost.com/index.cfm?MainDisplay=Products&SubDisplay=ProductDetails&ProductID=104

I got my new 5" Enco Vise today....not to bad.
Pics and more details here...http://www.donald-neisler.com/

Looks just like mine - except a tad longer and without the black crapass paint that is flaking off to reveal the same paint you've got. Should work nicely. I should have mentioned before that my vice has a ~.00025" bend (it's a .0005" indicator and it dives about 1/2 a tick) at the middle of the jaws - let us know how true your jaw(s) are. Other than that it's solid. One other thing - I did revamp the collar that secures the screw - the setscrew had been cross threaded by the precision worker who assembled it (sarcasm noted) so I drilled it out, moved up to a larger setscrew, retapped it and it's now nice and tight and releases as soon as I back off the handle.

Excellent thread response for so simple of a tool that nearly all of us use :)

Greg

Ok, maybe I am not so impressed. Got .005" variation from right to left on the jaw. Going to look into a little more before make a final decision.

Thanks for the heads up on Enco guys....just ordered the 5" vise and a height indicator with free shipping. WAY better deal than Shars.

Got .005" variation from right to left on the jaw

did you measure off of the fixed jaw?

I'm looking at ordering the X3 Tooling Package from Little Machine Shop.

Does anyone have any experience with the 4" vise that comes with this kit?

http://www.littlemachineshop.com/products/product_view.php?ProductID=3526&category=

Thanks!

ETA: So is it impossible to use a 6" vise on an X3? What's the point of having a table with 6" of Y travel if you can't clamp a 6" thick piece?

-Caleb105-

I looked at that set and determined that I could buy the individual components from either Grizzly or Enco for about $50 to $75 less.

Always order online with Enco, as they have significant online only price reductions that you can only see on the web.

They also have free shipping on orders over $100 untill the end of Feb.

Get the clamp set from Gizzly... make sure you get the 1/2 set with 3/8-16 studs. Then order the 7/16" T-nuts to match the X3 table slots.

That's a lot cheaper than ordering a 7/16 clamp set off Enco.

I don't have any personal experience with that set, but unless they quote a tolerance on the clamp faces, I doubt it's any different than what Enco or Grizzly or Harbor Freight sells.

Good Luck.

ETA: So is it impossible to use a 6" vise on an X3? What's the point of having a table with 6" of Y travel if you can't clamp a 6" thick piece?

-Caleb105-

But to HOLD a piece 6" in a vise, the vise itself has to project forward and backward of the part (assuming you mount the vise that way). There isn't as much throat depth so you lose travel. If you want to machine stuff at the limits of travel you need to look at other methods than a vise. There are many different kinds of clamps, from standard hold downs to toe clamps, side cam action clamps, heat sensitive adhesive.
Work holding can be one of the most challenging aspects of machining. Always pays to have more than one way to do something. The vise is just the begining. Versatile yes, but not the only way.

But to HOLD a piece 6" in a vise, the vise itself has to project forward and backward of the part (assuming you mount the vise that way). There isn't as much throat depth so you lose travel. If you want to machine stuff at the limits of travel you need to look at other methods than a vise. There are many different kinds of clamps, from standard hold downs to toe clamps, side cam action clamps, heat sensitive adhesive.
Work holding can be one of the most challenging aspects of machining. Always pays to have more than one way to do something. The vise is just the begining. Versatile yes, but not the only way.


And, the maximum size piece you can actually machine in one setup will be at least an inch, often several inches, less than the maximum axis travel....

Regards,
Ray L.

Note to self....

knocking off the Y-bearing block set up with the u-shape to it that extends y-axis travel by ~1" will be worth the effort

Well, I went ahead and ordered one of those 5" Enco vises also. We'll see what the accuracy is. It should be good enough to start with (i.e. machine my CNC parts). Well I was at it, I ordered the 20 endmill set with TiN coating, set of 10 thin parallels, and the 11 piece Collet set. Total = $200.84 with free shipping.

I did end up ordering SOME of the stuff from LMS that would have been in the X3 kit. I picked up the Clamping kit (7/16") for $40, an edge finder, dial indicator, magnetic base, vise clamping kit, micrometer, 1-2-3 blocks. Total with shipping = $203.11 ....I shudder to think what the shipping WOULD have been on that vise!

So.....will these endmills work for Al? Do I need to keep ferrous endmills away from non-ferrous ones? I know that 2 flute is better for Al.

Damn....who knew this hobby would be so expensive! I've burned through about $2200 in the past 2 weeks!

-Caleb105-

Well, I went ahead and ordered one of those 5" Enco vises also. We'll see what the accuracy is. It should be good enough to start with (i.e. machine my CNC parts). Well I was at it, I ordered the 20 endmill set with TiN coating, set of 10 thin parallels, and the 11 piece Collet set. Total = $200.84 with free shipping.

I did end up ordering SOME of the stuff from LMS that would have been in the X3 kit. I picked up the Clamping kit (7/16") for $40, an edge finder, dial indicator, magnetic base, vise clamping kit, micrometer, 1-2-3 blocks. Total with shipping = $203.11 ....I shudder to think what the shipping WOULD have been on that vise!

So.....will these endmills work for Al? Do I need to keep ferrous endmills away from non-ferrous ones? I know that 2 flute is better for Al.

Damn....who knew this hobby would be so expensive! I've burned through about $2200 in the past 2 weeks!

-Caleb105-

Do yourself a favor, order some Putnam endmills, and save that 20 piece set for when you're doing something you don't care about. Good endmills are MORE than worth the additional cost. Most of the cheap Chinese ones are just crap, and will convince you milling is MUCH harder than it really is.

Regards,
Ray L.

Do yourself a favor, order some Putnam endmills, and save that 20 piece set for when you're doing something you don't care about. Good endmills are MORE than worth the additional cost. Most of the cheap Chinese ones are just crap, and will convince you milling is MUCH harder than it really is.

Regards,
Ray L.

I can second that...cheaping out on tooling doesn't save you a dime when you end up wasting material. End mills, drill bits, saw blades...I always buy the best I can find. Especially drill bits...those 181pc import sets aren't worth the shipping it takes to deliver them to your door. I don't have a brand I favor, I just make sure it is made in the USA.

For aluminum I like bright finish HSS - seems to work well for me on the X2. You can do a hell of a lot with a 1/4, 3/16 and 1/2" endmills. Buy a few quality ones and add more as needed.

Well, I went ahead and ordered one of those 5" Enco vises also. We'll see what the accuracy is. It should be good enough to start with (i.e. machine my CNC parts). Well I was at it, I ordered the 20 endmill set with TiN coating, set of 10 thin parallels, and the 11 piece Collet set. Total = $200.84 with free shipping.

I did end up ordering SOME of the stuff from LMS that would have been in the X3 kit. I picked up the Clamping kit (7/16") for $40, an edge finder, dial indicator, magnetic base, vise clamping kit, micrometer, 1-2-3 blocks. Total with shipping = $203.11 ....I shudder to think what the shipping WOULD have been on that vise!

So.....will these endmills work for Al? Do I need to keep ferrous endmills away from non-ferrous ones? I know that 2 flute is better for Al.

Damn....who knew this hobby would be so expensive! I've burned through about $2200 in the past 2 weeks!

-Caleb105-
Personally I've found TiN coated endmills to be a bad idea for aluminum. I always get a lot of chip welding. I'd second the recommendation on getting good endmills, as they certainly are worth it. HSS is fine, especially for aluminum, no coating needed. There is a lot of hype around different tool treatments and everyones "secret recipe". True advantages (if any) for these tools come at much higher speed/feed/production rates on bigger, more rigid machines. Learn to make uncoated HSS work, then move on IF you need to.

Personally I've found TiN coated endmills to be a bad idea for aluminum. I always get a lot of chip welding. I'd second the recommendation on getting good endmills, as they certainly are worth it. HSS is fine, especially for aluminum, no coating needed. There is a lot of hype around different tool treatments and everyones "secret recipe". True advantages (if any) for these tools come at much higher speed/feed/production rates on bigger, more rigid machines. Learn to make uncoated HSS work, then move on IF you need to.

My experience with TiN and TiAlN coated tools on aluminum is the coating wear through in the first hour of use, and for the next few weeks, you're effectively using a plain HSS tool. I'll buy them if the price is good, but won't pay extra for them. On a small machine like an X2, the lack of rigidity will kill the tools long before they'd die on a larger, stiffer machine, so coatings to extend life are a waste of money. Since I got a knee mill, my tools last almost forever (well, except when I run them at 150 IPM into a clamp or vise. They don't seem to like that very much....).

Regards,
Ray L.

Thanks for all the great info guys!

So....my first projects will be the motor mounts & ballnut blocks for my CNC conversion. Do I need special "Aluminum" end mills, or can I just use a regular 2-flute end mill?

Thanks!

-Caleb105-

Thanks for all the great info guys!

So....my first projects will be the motor mounts & ballnut blocks for my CNC conversion. Do I need special "Aluminum" end mills, or can I just use a regular 2-flute end mill?

Thanks!

-Caleb105-

On a small machine, any decent 2-flute will work just fine. The special aluminum cutting endmills are only of value on much more powerful machines. Do yourself a favor and spend the money for some *good* endmills - they are MORE than worth the difference in cost. The Putnam and Greenfield brands (they're the same company) sold by Enco and MSC are excellent for the money. On sale, as they are almost weekly these days, they're a steal.

Regards,
Ray L.

Edited by Caleb105 to help this thread remain on the topic of Vises. ;-)

If you luck out on ebay, kurt did make a 5in vise that was just as nice as their 6" brethren, just smaller. Also, the 6in vise made by parlec, while huge, will work on the x3. Accupro's 6in will too.

A note on endmills: Buy good quality. Also, 3 flute, rather than two, leaves a beautiful finish and plunges a bit nicer than 2 flute on the x3.

FYI, there is a buy it now for the 5in D-50 kurt vise on ebay for 150.00.

P.S. I'm not the seller.

If you're just getting started the only difference between good endmills and Chinese cheapies is how far into your table/vise/clamps they get before the motor stalls. If you're new to CNC, you probably have a lot of crashes in your future, might as well do them with $4 mills. Nothing more fun than popping in your brand new $30 kryptonite-coated MegaUltraHyperMill for the very first time and watching the machine send it straight into something hard and rigid on the very first rapid.

That said, once your g-code is known clean, the good tools really make a difference. The sets are a waste though. Get a few each of the sizes you'll use a lot of like 1/4, 3/8, and 1/2".