Hey all-

I was thinking about Hoss's extended base for the X2 freak the other day and I think I have another idea I'm hoping I could get some feedback on- one that might get you up to another 2+ inches of Y travel beyond even the legendary Freak...

What if you were to take 2 super x1 bases (the ones with the extended Y travel), square off the ends, mill out some clearence through the column block on one of them for the y axis screw and bolt them togather similar to the X2 freak's base? From what I've been reading online, the super X1 base seems superior in design to the X2's to begin with, and the travel of 1 super X1 base is 7 inches, meaning 2 bases would mean about 14 before trying to message out a bit more by grinding down supports or screw mounts. The size of the mounting block for the tippable column angle plate looks similar to the one for the X2- if not, a bolt/spacer plate would be a quick fab job, I would think.

Has anyone ever tried an X1/X2 hybrid on here before? Does anyone have any opinions on this or am I just talkin' crazy?

-F

It's more of a personal opinion than anything else, but I guess I really just don't "get" this need for crazy travel on smaller machines. Yes, I understand the desire to cut larger workpieces, that's all well and good to want to do larger stuff, but to me that's always meant either figure a way around your travels by breaking cuts up, or using (or paying to have used) a larger machine.
I'd personally rather have 6" of solid travel that I can count on, and not have to watch constantly for deflection in the table or head mounting. Y is particularly concerning since you really need to keep inching the spindle out further to gain actual travel. More moment load, and more potential for stuff to go wrong during a cut.
It just seems that people get carried away in trying to see who can get the most, without regard for the impact it has on their work.

As far as a need for more Y travel goes, I am a hobbyest machinist- I like to tinker and mess with things in order to see how far I can push things. I would bet many other people on here are the same way, too. There are plenty of reasons I can see buying the next larger size machine, as many people who see as you do suggest, but for me, I can't afford the machines that would be of this size (a decent CNC setup can run $10K or so if you're at all serious), machines this size wouldn't fit in my house (no garage, no basement exterior access) and I genuinely enjoy seeing how far I can mod something. This is not a business for me, its a hobby. I personally don't get why many people do the things that they do for fun, but so long as they aren't hurting anyone, se la ve. Given my constraints, I have to work with what I have, and if by engineering the tools I have to do things beyond their original designs, great. For me it serves a purpose, and I'm not working for you or anyone else. If you have the space, time and money to upgrade to a half-million turning center, congratulations, but that's you. If you don't agree with what I've done, that's fine too, but I'm not asking for your permission or your blessing; I was just askiing a question for the other folks who do a little tinkering themselves. If you have any thoughts about my inquiry, I'm happy to hear them. If not, why waste your time responding?

-F

As far as a need for more Y travel goes, I am a hobbyest machinist- I like to tinker and mess with things in order to see how far I can push things. I would bet many other people on here are the same way, too. There are plenty of reasons I can see buying the next larger size machine, as many people who see as you do suggest, but for me, I can't afford the machines that would be of this size (a decent CNC setup can run $10K or so if you're at all serious), machines this size wouldn't fit in my house (no garage, no basement exterior access) and I genuinely enjoy seeing how far I can mod something. This is not a business for me, its a hobby. I personally don't get why many people do the things that they do for fun, but so long as they aren't hurting anyone, se la ve. Given my constraints, I have to work with what I have, and if by engineering the tools I have to do things beyond their original designs, great. For me it serves a purpose, and I'm not working for you or anyone else. If you have the space, time and money to upgrade to a half-million turning center, congratulations, but that's you. If you don't agree with what I've done, that's fine too, but I'm not asking for your permission or your blessing; I was just askiing a question for the other folks who do a little tinkering themselves. If you have any thoughts about my inquiry, I'm happy to hear them. If not, why waste your time responding?

-F

I couldn't agree more!:cheers:
Why would someone build a mill completely from scratch when they could just buy one? Same difference.:)
It's my mill, I'll do whatever I want.
The X1 hybrid sounds good.
Hoss

As far as a need for more Y travel goes, I am a hobbyest machinist- I like to tinker and mess with things in order to see how far I can push things. I would bet many other people on here are the same way, too. There are plenty of reasons I can see buying the next larger size machine, as many people who see as you do suggest, but for me, I can't afford the machines that would be of this size (a decent CNC setup can run $10K or so if you're at all serious), machines this size wouldn't fit in my house (no garage, no basement exterior access) and I genuinely enjoy seeing how far I can mod something. This is not a business for me, its a hobby. I personally don't get why many people do the things that they do for fun, but so long as they aren't hurting anyone, se la ve. Given my constraints, I have to work with what I have, and if by engineering the tools I have to do things beyond their original designs, great. For me it serves a purpose, and I'm not working for you or anyone else. If you have the space, time and money to upgrade to a half-million turning center, congratulations, but that's you. If you don't agree with what I've done, that's fine too, but I'm not asking for your permission or your blessing; I was just askiing a question for the other folks who do a little tinkering themselves. If you have any thoughts about my inquiry, I'm happy to hear them. If not, why waste your time responding?

-F

It's pretty much the response I expected, from now on I'll just keep out of your thread. My comment was not to deride you for your choices, but as a general point of discussion, and to present another point of view. You don't want to even entertain it, that's cool.
I work with what I have too. I just have a different way of getting the results I need.

From what I've been reading online, the super X1 base seems superior in design to the X2's to begin with

Not sure where this idea came from...

Unless the SX1 has a totally different base design than the long-base/non-tilting X1, I'm pretty sure it would be a much more complex project than the X2 Freak. The X1 base has a female dovetail that the saddle goes into, which is the opposite of the X2. So, you'd need to machine new dovetails on the base, assuming there's even enough material there to begin with.

It seems you believe I'm planning on mating an X1 base to an X2 base... not my intent- that would be way too much work with not nearly enough payoff, and if I were planning on going that route, I'd probably put more time into finding someone who could supply me with a honkin' big chunk of cast iron and start totally from scratch (I started a thread on that idea about a month or so ago- I'm having BIG problems finding c. iron suppliers who don't either want a grand for the piece I'm looking for (roughly 12X24X4 inches) or who will supply me with only 1 piece instead of several tons at once... argh!). While that option is still under (back-burner) exploration, I was saying to take 2 Sx1 bases and mate them in a similar manner Hoss did with the X2 freak. My thought is that the travel in the sX1 base is supposed to have about 7 inches in travel (according to a friend with one and several websites who mention it) as-is. If I could take 2 bases, bolt them togather and do a little machining on them, I could possibly get 14 inches total travel before machining everything else (screw mounts, saddle, etc.). With all of that, I might even get more than 14 total. With Hoss's articulating head spacer (plus a little more) and the super-rigid back brace I made for the column I have already, it could be a fully usable 14+ inch Y machine.

-F

Let me try this again...


The X2 saddle looks like this:

|||||||||||||||||||||
||\\ ...............//||

X2 Base:

......\\.........//......
|||||||||||||||||||||

On the X1, the saddle looks like:

|||||||||||||||||||||
.....//...........\\.....

While the base looks like:

||//................\\||
|||||||||||||||||||||

You can't mate an X2 saddle to an X1 base without modifying one or the other, as you'd have two sets of the same kind of dovetails. Won't work, even in Vermont or Massachusetts. You could just use the entire X1 X/Y assembly, but that would mean smaller dovetails with less contact surface. There are some things I like about the X1 base design better, but not that much better.

if you guys are looking for an X2 base. Give harbor freight a call. They have a seperate number for parts. Your local store should be able to give you the number. I got an X2 base imported and shipped to my door for $23.27

Beat that price.

if you guys are looking for an X2 base. Give harbor freight a call. They have a seperate number for parts. Your local store should be able to give you the number. I got an X2 base imported and shipped to my door for $23.27

Beat that price.

Sounds like you are lucky enough to have a local harbor freight store, I'm jealous:) Any chance you could find the part number and/or phone number? Sounds like a heck of a deal and I want one:)

Mark [mkenney]

You can't mate an X2 saddle to an X1 base without modifying one or the other, as you'd have two sets of the same kind of dovetails. Won't work, even in Vermont or Massachusetts. You could just use the entire X1 X/Y assembly, but that would mean smaller dovetails with less contact surface. There are some things I like about the X1 base design better, but not that much better.

Surely he means to use the longer, wider X1 extended table and saddle with the modded X1 Base.

http://littlemachineshop.com/products/product_view.php?ProductID=2642&category=

http://littlemachineshop.com/products/product_view.php?ProductID=2297&category=

CR.

Sounds like you are lucky enough to have a local harbor freight store, I'm jealous:) Any chance you could find the part number and/or phone number? Sounds like a heck of a deal and I want one:)

Mark [mkenney]

You can probably order it online:

http://harborfreight.com/

Here's the manual. Parts lists are at the end:

http://www.harborfreight.com/manuals/44000-44999/44991.PDF

CR.

No you can't order them online. If you go through Grizzly you can.

I wanted a red one instead of green for cosmetic reasons.

I will post up the number when i get home.

Surely he means to use the longer, wider X1 extended table and saddle with the modded X1 Base.

Well he didn't say that, did he? I'm not so sure I'd assume that as that move would involve a lot more sacrifice. The X1 dovetails are smaller and the saddle is narrower. Compared to my X2, my X1 required almost constant adjustment of the gibs to keep them reasonably tight. I would tighten them at the start of any job and if it was long I'd check again in the middle. My X2 has so far required a lot less fiddling. With the additional power of the X2 spindle, this would be even worse. I don't know what the effect on surface finish would be since this is also a function of the (mostly) superior X2 column. I do know that I can get better finishes on my X2 with little effort.

Also, if you want to put ballscrews on, you're SOL since the X1 doesn't have clearance for 5/8" screws like everyone uses for the X2/X3. You'd have to go with special small ones that will likely cost more than the mill. And sticking with the stock screws on the X1 will probably lead to tears if you want better than .01" backlash.

No doubt he could just bypass BOTH X1 and X2 and buy an X3. This would REALLY be a lot better!

CR.

Actually, I remember seeing somewhere on the net a Sx1 CNC conversion that had ballscrews on it- I don't know how they fit the things under the saddle, but it was there. I was thinking it might be possible if you cut some clearance on the underside of the saddle and, if you needed a bit more, a slot on the base, too. It looks like there is room enough on the casting for that, so long as you don't hog out too much. Also, as far as the gib issue, I would think better gibs might be a possibility too... A friend of mine replaced the stock gibs on his X1 with a piece he made out of a good piece of A2 tool steel that was wider than the stock- it filled up alot more of the clearance where the gib sits under the saddle. From what he's told me, he rarely has to adjust anything.

-F

Hey all-

I've been working on a new base for my X2 mill, and after getting it done, have decided I want to go a lot further and make a new saddle and X axis table for it. The base was made by bolting/welding together some mild steel 2X4's, grinding it flat on top/bottom, bolting some steel plate to the top to act as the travel surface, then bolting 2 plates with the existing X2 mill's 35 degree dovetails cut into them (see photos). After seeing how the X2 saddle looks on the beast (small and unbalanced), I thought it could use a new saddle and X axis table while I was at it.

The problem is, nobody seems to sell a 35 degree dovetail cutter, which is what I found the saddle's dovetails to be.

Does anybody know of where I might pick up a 35 deg. dovetail cutter? MSC/J&L and LMS don't seem to have them, and for the last few months, Ebay has been nada as well...

I could just make a new set of dovetail plates, but after all the work I;ve put in, I'd rather not...

-Farasien

It's not an X2 anymore, it's a Farasian.:)
Nice work Erik, it'll be a beast when you're done.
You can pick up a 55 degree dovetail cutter at Tapdie.com (http://www.tapdie.com/html/dovetail_cutters__dovetail_slo.html) in the UK.
They aren't cheap, so reworking to use a cheaper 45 or 60 degree cutter commonly used over here
might sound better afterall.
If you are scrapping the saddle and table anyhow, you may look into going with boxed ways instead.
The VMC's at work have boxed ways.
Surprised I don't see more custom mills using them, would be my first choice over dovetails or rails.
Do you have the old X2 base, looking to get some cash for it? PM me, I still need one for a project.
Thanks, Hoss

Farasien,

Give Moon Cutter a call, they may have the dovetail cutter you need.

http://www.mooncutter.com/

If they don't stock it they will make it.

Jeff...

Thanks Hoss-

I'd like to part with my x2 base, but alas, I still need it to cut a few things out. Maybe when I get the saddle, X and Z axes (once I can find someone selling a chunk of steel the size I need w/o going broke) I'll be ready to let it go. Isn't LMS selling them? I thought they were available about a month ago...

Given the work I've already put in, I'm looking for the best possible (and feasible, given my limited experience and tool availability- I don't work in the industry, unfortunately) design I can. I've heard people say bad things about the ways on the 7xX and similar lathes, but nothing about the ways on mills. I was considering going with either 45 or 60 degree dovetails, but I forget what the threshold is for what makes a self-locking taper (my teacher covered it on day 1 class #1... about 3 years ago), and obviously, don't want to go that route if all I get is a brick. Is it 15 degrees or less?

And forgive my ignorance, but... boxed ways? I'm not familiar with that term. The only thing I can think of is, did you mean the ways that I see on some of the more expensive lathes what are flat (have no V's or grooves)?

The only thing I can imagine is you might mean 90 degree ways..
_______________
| |
| /\ |
| //\\ |
|____// \\______|
____/ \______
| |
| |
------------------------

Is this what you mean? If so, I could see how this would be good- the ways would wear into one another like a round thread bridgeport axis screw instead of wearing out...

...by the way, thanks for the updated drawings. Programs are written-I'm looking forward to my classes this semester so I can cut them out on the EZtrak my school has.

-Farasien

Boxed ways are used in heavy duty machines like a Matsuura, very rigid and accurate.
Pretty simple construction too.
Found a pic that shows them on a Seiki.
Just a thought as you wouldn't need to buy a dovetail cutter.
Below 7 degrees can become self locking, no worry with 45 or 60.
Good to hear the prints were OK, looking forward to seeing it all come together.
Hoss

That is some nice work there, but for someone who sounded like they did not want to build a mill from scratch you are well on your way. I am constantly amazed by what you guys with these X2 machines can do and I am also nearly as surprised at why? Is the millhead and column of this machine capable of working on that much overhang and not be as loose as a noodle? I see how Hoss did his and it obviously works but I gotta wonder if the machine was stronger when it was not hanging the millhead six inches further from the column.

My Lathemaster mill has some decent travels and I was looking at moving the column back on the base an inch or two with a large spacer plate and got lots of naysayers that said it would seriously weaken the rigidity. Several times larger and heavier than the X2 yet you guys have no problem stretching it every way from sunday. Am I missing something here? I also get that you said it is mostly a hobby for you but you would not spend that much time and I am sure money modding something if you did not at least hope it was gonna be a useful and capable machine when done.

I have watched Hoss's freak cut aluminum and other materials on his videos and it seems to cut quite well and his machine is of course heavily modded. What gives? peace....

Hey Pete-

Like most hobbies, machine building can get out of hand. I have no specific timeline (or a real defined budget, for that matter) for this project, I just enjoy doing it. When I see an engineering problem, it sets my mind working and before too long (weather I try to or not) the answers start to haunt me, and I feel that I have to address them. Its like an itch you can't ignore. Well, one -I- can't ignore, anyway.

As far as the machine rigidity is concerned, alot of the problem comes in for the material you are planning to be cutting. Though its hard to predict the ultimate end uses you'll put a machine to, you can usually make an educated guess from the outset and then go from there in your design. Do you plan on making alot of stainless parts, make really heavy cuts (as in, is this a real production machine or are you just messing around?) or will aluminum and mild steel work for you? Are you making a plastic cutting machine (That's where I started, but found I really like machining aluminum)? How many axes do you need to do the work you want to do? In my case, the more I got into this hobby, the more I learned how much I was ultimately going to need for the operations I wanted the machine to do. I went from the 'Eh... I can use a 2.5 axis machine with tolerances of +/- 0.1 inches.' level to 'I want a fully automated 6 axis machine with +/- 0.005 accuracy.' pretty fast- not only because it will make what I want to DO with the thing easier (tool and fixture changes SUCK) but because I enjoy the challenge of doing it. The X1/2/3 machines have pretty sloppy for tolerances right out of the box and though are not made to be extreme quality machines, the engineering that went into their design is fairly loose and lends itself well to modification. That's the real value of these machines more than anything else. Other machines are made more for right-out-of-the-box use and are not as tolerant of home engineering, so really are more for a typical shop-bought machine.

Hope that answers the question...

-Farasien

Thanks for the reply, I glean from your response that you understood my post was not meant to antagonize. It wasn't..... I am genuinely impressed with the ideas and skills brought to bear on these X series machines and the imagination flowing from them is amazing to say the least. Much of what I have done to my machine and the inspiration more importantly I have for this whole thing stems greatly from the ingenuity exhibited here.

I would LOVE to have a machine that had double the Y axis travel I currently have and still be rigid and accurate for my needs. I would LOVE to have twice the X travel as well as many other issues that I have not already addressed in my buildup. Truth be told I wish I had the coinage for a Tormach or IH stand alone cnc mill but I simply do not. So therefore I am not immune to the idea of buying what you want or can afford and modding it to do what you desire wether for fun or profit does not matter really. The base you have built looks solid enough to be underneath my machine and carry all of it's 800 pounds!! I salute you for that. I am just wondering if there is something that can be done to either move the head out more and still maintain same rigidity or better yet increase it. If you are going to go to the trouble to build the whole base it seems to not be that far a stretch to remake the column somehow and add some METAL to it that would make it capable of utilizing the added travels of the table. Hoss's machine has that articulating collar and it appears to have at the least stiffened things up a bit to account for the added leverage of the millhead and also allows for some accurate alignment as well it seems. I once saw a post on a taig that had pictures of a seriously gusseted column that went back from the rear of the machine in a kinda triangle straight back and had triangulated gussets seemingly everywhere. That is kinda what I am talking about. I am sure it would not be easy to build this but from the looks of that base you are more than capable it seems. Just a thought man, and again thanks for not flaming me with your reply.... peace

Hey Pete-

Not a problem. There is a little counterblast from some people here because, like in almost any forum of any kind, there are trolls who come on and antagonize-because they can- and people whose minds can get around the idea that others don't see things the same way as them, and so argue to try and get people to see things their way.

As far as the column, yes, I have a few ideas turning around in my head. For my current X2, I did some heavy rework of things to stiffen up the column. I bought a 24X1X6' chunk of aluminum, drilled about 30 holes through it and tha back of the column (after filling it with polymner concrete) and bolted 2 12X10X5/8 plates to the sides of the aluminum plate, than this whole thing to a base plate of aluminum. I also machined a spacer plate to fit between the space of the bottom of the aluminum column plate and the base, wchich I also tapped and bolted through the bottom of the spacer plate into the base itself. I'll try to get a few pictures when I can (I'm goofing off @ work atm) on here. Anyway, I did all this because I got paranoid about machine rigidity. Its solid, but I have a better idea for the new column.

For the new one, I'm thinking of getting a plate of aluminum 2X4X24 to which I'll bolt some dovetails for the head (unless you can tell me, Hoss, how I could make vertical boxed ways somehow... I'm probably going that route, by the way-Thanks again!). To the back of that plate, I'll likely bolt another 2 steel 2X4's (or weld them, if I can get access to the school's weld shop again). The bottom of this will get bolted to a heavy steel base plate underneath the whole machine. I think this ought to be damn-near rock solid when its done, though I still have a few other issues to work out.

As far as extending out the head, that's possible using Hoss's idea. I'm doing something similar- Using one of those cheaper 4' rotary tables you can get off eBay, I made a mounting for the space between the head and the head mount block. I can CNC the rotary table making a powered 5th axis. Combined with the tilt mod Hoss came up withm its a little more than Hoss's in length, and if I end up needing more (which I very well might with the extra Y travel) I cal always make a spacer plate to bolt in between things.

I'm finding this is a little like building a high performance engine... There is an increasingly nagging amount of tradeoff in this. More Y travel makes for more bracing required for the column, making for a larger footprint making it less likely to be a true 'benchtop' machine.... By the time I'm done, I'll likely have a full-sized Haas by the way I'm going...

-Farasien