I live in Grande Prairie, Alberta, Canada, And would like to know what kind of "Institution" I should look for to learn machining / CNC machining (leaning towards the later). I have looked around at my local college and University of Alberta and neither of them seem to know where i should look. My local college said to find a person to teach me, but i cant imagine that would look good on a resume, and the U of A simply said "No, We do not have any related courses available currently"

Any help or direction would be greatly appreciated.

Regards,
Matt Runhart.

Hi Matt, check out NAIT's programs. They have a varity of cnc courses and they have one full time program that gives you 2 years credit towards machining and enough theory to get you in the door to start as a cnc operator. From there absorb as much info as you can from working in the trade. There are a few shops in grande priarie that have cnc machines.
Darcy

I guess it depends where you would like to start. If you want to learn to run/operate a CNC the first thing is to learn to be a machinist. If you want to be able to program one, you could probably learn by using some sort of CAD software. But I would highly recommend learning some manual machining first. The world is full of "Start Button" CNC operators that put parts in and never really understand the concept of making chips. No matter what you need to understand cutting tools.

My suggestion would be to start with the basics. Blueprint reading and design concepts, that I would assume you can get that much on any tech school or college near you. I would also suggest you become extremely proficient on computers. There is also a good resource for reading technical info on current machining practices, trends and new technology. I'm not sure if I can post the link so I will so tell you the name of the website and you can look it up. There you may also be able to find the resources for local schools. Modern Machineshop online or mmsonline. Hope this helps and good luck in your new career.

Ps:Find a tech school or college that uses SolidWorks and not Autocad. Not that I have any software preferences but the facts are that industry wide Solidworks is the most used. No sense in starting with Autocad and then having to learn another software right of the bat.

Haas has an apprentiship program. You would have to move to California, could you deal with 350 days of sunshine a year? I know I can, especially where I live in ohio, we might get 90.
Anyway, if your willing to relocate, I think they have one opening right now, my friend was looking into it. It's a paid apprentiship, and probably better than any school honestly.
www.haasjobs.com

Darcy
Also check out SAIT in Calgary. One would think that NAIT and SAIt would offer identical programs but apparently there are some differences.

JohnW

Here is the website for the Haas technical education centers.
This web site lists many schools http://www.htecnetwork.org/
Some do a better job than others "let the buyer beware"
The two years schools are more likely to have instructors who have really worked in industry VS some one with a PHD, little real world experience
Most schools have an internet site check them out see what they have to offer and then arrange a visit. look at how complicated the parts are that they make.
here is a link to my website to give you something to compare other sites too.
http://www.alpenacc.edu/programs/machinetool/index.htm

Robert Tosch
CNC Instrutor
Alpena Community College

"Finishing high School - want to learn CNC machining"

This suggest you are young, have you had any experience working in a machine shop?

I have read through the various suggestions and your comment; "My local college said to find a person to teach me, but i cant imagine that would look good on a resume," and say forget all this and find some place that will take you on doing anything, sweeping the floor, deburring, parts loading, whatever grunt work is necessary. Forget about resumes, forget about design, forget about focussing on any specific aspect, get some experience in a machine shop; keep your eyes and ears open and buckle down and work.

In particular don't worry about 'what looks good on a resume'. I am a potential employer of someone like you both now and when you are experienced and I can assure you words on paper mean nothing to me. If I am employing someone without experience the important thing is how they buckle down and apply themself to the grunt work and how much interest and improvement they show. If I am employing someone who claims experience and skills they get thrown in front of a machine with a sketch or a part and told to duplicate it; and if they are still standing there two hours later scratching their head they get thrown out no matter what their resume says.

Once you have some real hands on experience and know this is the career for you then you can start looking into getting the 'book learning'.

I guess that's one way to look at it. I think in todays world. The work your way up, is not necessarily the best. I would rather get some education and of course when you get out of school you will find out that you don't know as much as you think you do but at least you will have a good foundation. I would not hurt if you were working and going to school. With all due respect I don't think that by sweeping the floor he's going to learn much, specially in a field where new technology comes out every year and if you want to be at the cutting edge you need to constantly study. That is not to say you can not learn from your peers, however that is not a replacement for a decent education.

Deffinitely try NAIT www.nait.ab.ca, they spent a ton of money. It's all new equipment. They also have a 1 yr CNC Technican program. Fairview college also might have something.

Ed

... With all due respect I don't think that by sweeping the floor he's going to learn much, specially in a field where new technology comes out every year and if you want to be at the cutting edge you need to constantly study.... That is not to say you can not learn from your peers, however that is not a replacement for a decent education.

Correct, but somebody who thinks they are too good to sweep the floor for a few months and do the grunt work when needed does not have the correct attitude to get anywhere. There are far too many young people who think they have a good education but who in reality don't have a clue; the first thing a young person needs these days in my opinion is to recognise that they probably do not have a clue and they had better buckle down and start getting clued in. Nowhere did I say learning from peers can substitute for a decent education but I think that experience, a willingness to work hard no matter how grunty the task and a good education are all equally important. I agree that new technology comes out regularly but the old technology is still there so a solid grounding in it is needed.

I will suggest you try before you buy; that is to say, see if you can't find a machine shop to take you in and show you the ropes a bit before you spend 2 precious years learning a trade that you ultimately find is not your cup of tea. There are a lot of doctors, lawyers and accountants who went in it for the money but regret their decision and wish they did something else. your advantage is that it is fairly easy to get your foot in the door in a machine shop by youthful enthusiasm alone; then you have a chance to see if you can deal with the enclosed environment, noise, metal slivers and so on. If you like it you'll get all sorts of help and advice going on, but if you don't then again you can step out into something else before it's too late.

I've just been through a similar situation, I left school at the end of last year, did two weeks work experience at a CNC Machine Shop, about a month after they offered me a job as basically a labourer / manual machine operator and if I was any good after 3 months or so, they'd offer me an apprentiship.

I'm doing the apprentiship as basically a cnc programmer / machinist. In the last 6 months, i've written only 5 or 6 programs for basic parts.. interpolating holes for jigs, etc. Nothing spectacular. Nearly all my time has been spent in the tool room running manual lathes, mills etc to learn the basics. The bosses reckon that the only way to be a good cnc machinist is to become a excellent manual machinist first.

I get all the one-off jobs that the shop gets, prototypes etc. Quite fun because nearly every day is different. I get all the blunt drills to sharpen at the end of the week though which isn't fun lol.


If I was you i'd try get work experience at a machine shop first, to see that it's actually what you want to spend the next ten years doing.


I work here by the way... www.tpenz.com

Thank you for your great support, i was expecting a reply or two over the next week or so tops. you guys rock :cheers:

Where i stand right now is at a fork of CNC / Machining and computer programming, I am leaning heavily to the CNC though. I do have experience in a welding shop, and have built my own CNC router and have experience on that but like the resume thing nothing credible, as well as an A+ certification (Certified for pretty much any average computer job). Im mainly looking to see, come the morning after graduation day, where do i go if i want to be a CNC machinist for the rest/majority of my life.

So From looking at NAIT's Courses, CNC machinist would be the one of choice, i believe( http://www.nait.ca/14232.htm ). Is there something different about it as it only requires Grade 10 math and english? It is a certificate, is that what i'd need to be able to work as a machinist and be credible wherever i go?

SAIT seems to be different only in the way the course is laid out, Many of my friends have gone to NAIT and they seem to like it so i think I'd lean towards it as opposed to SAIT.

Is CNC machining similar to welding in that you tend to get jobs off of references as opposed to degree's?

Thanks in advance

Matt Runhart

My suggestion would be to start with the basics. Blueprint reading and design concepts, that I would assume you can get that much on any tech school or college near you. I would also suggest you become extremely proficient on computers. There is also a good resource for reading technical info on current machining practices, trends and new technology. I'm not sure if I can post the link so I will so tell you the name of the website and you can look it up. There you may also be able to find the resources for local schools. Modern Machineshop online or mmsonline. Hope this helps and good luck in your new career.

Ps:Find a tech school or college that uses SolidWorks and not Autocad. Not that I have any software preferences but the facts are that industry wide Solidworks is the most used. No sense in starting with Autocad and then having to learn another software right of the bat.

Haas has an apprentiship program. You would have to move to California, could you deal with 350 days of sunshine a year? I know I can, especially where I live in ohio, we might get 90.
Anyway, if your willing to relocate, I think they have one opening right now, my friend was looking into it. It's a paid apprentiship, and probably better than any school honestly.
www.haasjobs.com

"Finishing high School - want to learn CNC machining"

This suggest you are young, have you had any experience working in a machine shop?

I have read through the various suggestions and your comment; "My local college said to find a person to teach me, but i cant imagine that would look good on a resume," and say forget all this and find some place that will take you on doing anything, sweeping the floor, deburring, parts loading, whatever grunt work is necessary. Forget about resumes, forget about design, forget about focussing on any specific aspect, get some experience in a machine shop; keep your eyes and ears open and buckle down and work.

In particular don't worry about 'what looks good on a resume'. I am a potential employer of someone like you both now and when you are experienced and I can assure you words on paper mean nothing to me. If I am employing someone without experience the important thing is how they buckle down and apply themself to the grunt work and how much interest and improvement they show. If I am employing someone who claims experience and skills they get thrown in front of a machine with a sketch or a part and told to duplicate it; and if they are still standing there two hours later scratching their head they get thrown out no matter what their resume says.

Once you have some real hands on experience and know this is the career for you then you can start looking into getting the 'book learning'.

All great suggestions, but the last one is the best. Find work in a machine shop doing what ever grunt work you can. Gain experience, and show interest.
You have to crawl before you can walk. So go and look for some machine shop openings, and get moving boy. Pick up some blue print reading books, while your at it :)

Thank you for your great support, i was expecting a reply or two over the next week or so tops. you guys rock :cheers:

Where i stand right now is at a fork of CNC / Machining and computer programming, I am leaning heavily to the CNC though. I do have experience in a welding shop, and have built my own CNC router and have experience on that but like the resume thing nothing credible, as well as an A+ certification (Certified for pretty much any average computer job). Im mainly looking to see, come the morning after graduation day, where do i go if i want to be a CNC machinist for the rest/majority of my life.

So From looking at NAIT's Courses, CNC machinist would be the one of choice, i believe( http://www.nait.ca/14232.htm ). Is there something different about it as it only requires Grade 10 math and english? It is a certificate, is that what i'd need to be able to work as a machinist and be credible wherever i go?

SAIT seems to be different only in the way the course is laid out, Many of my friends have gone to NAIT and they seem to like it so i think I'd lean towards it as opposed to SAIT.

Is CNC machining similar to welding in that you tend to get jobs off of references as opposed to degree's?

Thanks in advance

Matt Runhart

Experience, experience, experience. its not about the paper(diploma/degree/certification), its what you know. The machine will make a liar out of you, if you know what im saying.

btw, you will be a natural. just get in their and get your hands dirty, forget about all the fancy details. Work hard, and it will pay off.

Also being a member of this new generation, we tend to want to jump straight for the computers. Thats where we got it all backwards, we have to learn the basics before we can start designing and programming.

Hi Matt, I have a few suggestions too. As someone noted earlier, CAD can be a good thing to know. Most major CAD companies have discount educational packages. UniGraphics, ProEngineer, SolidWorks, etc. all do for sure. AutoCad used to be the most popular but I think SolidWorks is the best one to have experience with at this time. Catia, "UG" and "ProE" are more "high-end" and less common in shops. Call SolidWorks and find out what educational promo's they have. Along with that, make sure you do some reading about machining. Sandvik has a wonderful program! They supply you with a great book and give you tests on-line. They only charge a fee if you do NOT complete the program! The book is easily worth a hundred dollars. Along with your CAD and machining knowledge you have to learn some CNC Programming. A nice book that's easy to understand and has lots of examples is CNC Programming Handbook written by Peter Smid and published by Industrial Press. I'm not sure if the CAM companies have eductional promo's like the CAD guys, but definitely give them a call too. If all else fails, call BobCAD and see if you can get an outdated copy at a deeply discounted price. I think MasterCAM occasionally gives free training to people getting into the machining field. All that said really doesn't do much for you if you don't make chips. Again, as someone mentioned earlier, try to do some manual machining first. If you can afford to go without pay, try to get into a shop as a helper or a floor sweeper or second op guy in exchange for machining time and CNC training. There are far too many people getting stuck in entry level jobs where they load the part, push the button and get sprayed with coolant while someone in the office does the programming. Do NOT let yourself become one of them. If you want to become a CNC machinist, learn it ALL(!) and make sure you practice, practice, practice! Trade schools are important to have on your resume but I guess maybe not available everywhere. Are they absolutely necessary? That's something you have to decide for yourself. I would suggest you try it for a while before you move to a far-away town and commit one or more years. Ok - enough from me. Good luck!

Hi Matt, I have a few suggestions too. As someone noted earlier, CAD can be a good thing to know. Most major CAD companies have discount educational packages. UniGraphics, ProEngineer, SolidWorks, etc. all do for sure. AutoCad used to be the most popular but I think SolidWorks is the best one to have experience with at this time. Catia, "UG" and "ProE" are more "high-end" and less common in shops. Call SolidWorks and find out what educational promo's they have. Along with that, make sure you do some reading about machining. Sandvik has a wonderful program! They supply you with a great book and give you tests on-line. They only charge a fee if you do NOT complete the program! The book is easily worth a hundred dollars. Along with your CAD and machining knowledge you have to learn some CNC Programming. A nice book that's easy to understand and has lots of examples is CNC Programming Handbook written by Peter Smid and published by Industrial Press. I'm not sure if the CAM companies have eductional promo's like the CAD guys, but definitely give them a call too. If all else fails, call BobCAD and see if you can get an outdated copy at a deeply discounted price. I think MasterCAM occasionally gives free training to people getting into the machining field. All that said really doesn't do much for you if you don't make chips. Again, as someone mentioned earlier, try to do some manual machining first. If you can afford to go without pay, try to get into a shop as a helper or a floor sweeper or second op guy in exchange for machining time and CNC training. There are far too many people getting stuck in entry level jobs where they load the part, push the button and get sprayed with coolant while someone in the office does the programming. Do NOT let yourself become one of them. If you want to become a CNC machinist, learn it ALL(!) and make sure you practice, practice, practice! Trade schools are important to have on your resume but I guess maybe not available everywhere. Are they absolutely necessary? That's something you have to decide for yourself. I would suggest you try it for a while before you move to a far-away town and commit one or more years. Ok - enough from me. Good luck!


I have purchased the Solidworks educational package deal. Great software, but it is time sensitive. You only get like 3 months to use it, and it costs over $100.
trust me, you will be far better off learning how to machine first. before learning how to draw.
You have to learn, to be the machine. before you can start cad/cam haha:)

Matt, good luck with whatever choices you make. As you can see while we may have difference of opinions, when you are in a bind, you can always count on a great deal of folks here willing to lend a hand. This is an exciting field. As long as you work hard and also work smart, you should be on your marry way to a good career. Cool thing about this field is that there's always something new to learn.:cheers::cheers:

Michigan, USA =

1995,
Truck driver, 3 months CDL, pay $12 per hour, easy to get a job
Tool maker, cnc programmer, 2-4 years for Journeyman’s card, $20 per hour, work anywhere you want.

2008,
Truck driver, $15-$20 per hour, some jobs listed every week
Tool Maker, cnc , $10-$15 per hour, NO OPENINGS, SORRY!

All good suggestions for an aspiring engineer!

One thing I would add- make some parts and when you go for an interview stick them on the desk in front of you and say "I made that". You would not beleive the good impression this can make- much better than a CV/ Resume, even something simple like a turner's cube provides real concrete evidence that you know what you're doing.

Oh, if you are going for an apprenticeship learn everything you can off the old chaps- they will be more than willing to teach you if you show enthusiasm, but when you're time served you will be regarded as competition! so learn early :)

Michigan, USA =

1995,
Truck driver, 3 months CDL, pay $12 per hour, easy to get a job
Tool maker, cnc programmer, 2-4 years for Journeyman’s card, $20 per hour, work anywhere you want.

2008,
Truck driver, $15-$20 per hour, some jobs listed every week
Tool Maker, cnc , $10-$15 per hour, NO OPENINGS, SORRY!

LOL... This makes me think of the Master Card moments. The industry is not what it used to be. Specially not in Michigan, I should know growing up in Chicago. Trust me no Cnc programer makes 10-15 an hr or least I would like to think so. All the same like in any industry, you will have people that have not desire to better them selfs and you will have go getters and those I know, are not making 15 bucks an hr.

I live in Grande Prairie, Alberta, Canada, And would like to know what kind of "Institution" I should look for to learn machining / CNC machining (leaning towards the later). I have looked around at my local college and University of Alberta and neither of them seem to know where i should look. My local college said to find a person to teach me, but i cant imagine that would look good on a resume, and the U of A simply said "No, We do not have any related courses available currently"

Any help or direction would be greatly appreciated.

Regards,
Matt Runhart.
out here in phoenix, some ofthe CC's offer CNC related courses,
if you can find any manual machine work, the experience you'll gain, will be helpfull when you do find a way to acquire CNC knowledge.

You could try Single Point Diamond Machining- very specialised and you'll easily make 15 bucks an hour. I make more than double that. Downside is that we're so few and far between that I haven't been able to have a holiday in over 3 years... busy, busy, busy.

Here's a brief overview from Wiki

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Diamond_turning

It ain't easy, but I guess that's why they pay you a lot for doing it :)

Before I give you and advise on learning CNC machining, let me tell you a little about how I learned. I started out 31 years ago in a local machine shop working the night shift, it was 12 hours a day 5 days a days a week. Do you have any idea how long 12 hours is? Think about it. I stayed at that shop for three years loading parts changing tools and pushing cycle start until I was doing it in my sleep. At that time I had learned all I was going to about CNC machining I could learn from that employer because there were no openings for me to advance. All I knew was how to operate the various machines the shop owned. I had learned nothing about theory so I left there and found a job on a manual machine so I could get the metal cutting experience I needed. Over the years I worked in several different machine shops and all of them were either 5/12's or 5/10's and 6 or 8 on Saturday. Always plenty of work to be done except for a couple of slow years in the early 80's there has always been a job for anyone that wanted to be a machinist. THAT HAS ALL CHANGED!!! The abundance of work no longer exists most of the machine work came from the auto industry which has now mostly gone overseas. The Unites States and Canada are getting ready to go through the worst economic times that you will probably ever experience in your life and a selecting a career in machining could be the biggest mistake you could ever make. Now for the advise. Get a phonebook out and look up a Dermatologist any Dermatologist call them and make an appointment if you are a new patient they will probably tell you they can't get you in for at least three to six months. Go to College become a Dermatologist and have a long happy busy wealthy fun life. If you still insist on becoming a machinist then listen to the advise the guys are telling you, the most important thing is that you understand machining theory not CNC. CNC is little more than knowing how to tell the machine to crank the handles for you. What you need to know is how fast to turn the handle, or how fast to run the spindle relative to the material you are cutting, the material the cutting tool is made of and the diameter of the tool. You need to know how to clamp a part without twisting it. You need to understand what it means to climb or conventional cut and why and when to use each. I could go on and on and on about what you need to know, but what I think you need to know most is how to make the right career choice. good luck.
I would be happy to answer any machining question you have that I can should you choose a career in machining nstaley@comcast.net

Micro_CNC,

There have been a lot of good posts on this thread, a bit of drivel as well!

I am a mechanical Engineer by education. I own a machine shop because I like it...I grew up in a machine shop. You will have to pay your dues one way or another if you want to get into manufacturing! The trades are not kind to the young...It's a man's world in the machine shop! The machines are capable of ripping you to shreds if you do something stupid! That's why most shop owners will bring in a kid to do menial work, such as sweeping the floor...It's all a matter of acclimation. Shop owners, myself included want to know that you have "the right stuff" to be there without getting hurt.

I know CNC programming sounds "fun", but you must have a basic knowledge of materials and how to machine them before you can make a part on a CNC. Speeds and feeds are critical to production. There's Stainless, tool steels, 4140 steel, Vega, Waspalloy, Aeromet100, Aluminum 6061-T6 and 3000 dead soft, 1018 low carbon steel,...etc. etc.

I use my computer eveyday to program the machines and do design work. In the shop the computer is just another tool, like a Bridgeport mill.

Jim

nstaley is absolutely right!

Spare yourself the grief young man and look for a different career!

Jim

Our shop is in Michigan, hend you know the angle from which I will come when it comes to this thread.

As you can see by the goings on in Washington, the people who rule us have more concern for those who shower BEFORE they go to work as opposed to those who shower AFTER they come home.

Yes, our economic situation is/will be dire. some of the trades that will be affected by the shake out of the auto and supporting industries WILL put a damper on CNC tradespersons for quite some time to come. WIll the need for the service/career come to an end? No. WIll it prosper? It depends on where you sit in the industry.

The GOOD CNC people will retain their jobs thru the shake out. THey will also be the ones who'll get hired back first once all the politicing and horsetrading and fleecing of the economy shake out. Sadly, there will be a lot of cannon fodder who's lives will be decimaed by the shake out/blood baths to come.

I'm approaching the end of my career. Kidney failure made sure that this would be the ultimate challenge that I"d have to face. Fortunately, my shop has a blend of CNC, knowledge of CNC plus plehty of analog equipment that we get by on. WE hope to be a/the low cost supplier in our racket, prototype cams. This was done by taking hardly capable CNC ewuuipment and making it capable of ultra precision equipment that does the same thing. WE succeeded and are now able to make our masters in house for a fraction of what we had to pay for them in the past.

It also made us capable of doing with a $50K machine what others folks need a $1.5 million machine to do. Imagine the cost of my break even point as compared to that of the guy with the 1.5 million dollar machine.

The comment about dermtology and CNC offers tome interesting possibilities albeit in slightly different venues.

CNC is coming to the joint replacement industry. Doctors who do hip and joint work HAVE to use common drills and hammers and stuff to carve out the bone to glue in theri "new joint". I have a friend who is working on precise joint modeling that will require CNC stuff of tomorrow to be able to place and support the joint properly. He has not YET had an orthopoedic surgeon refuse to watch his sales pitches. AND some of the best surgeons in the country are knocking at his door for the software. ONce he models the joint, you're going to HAVE to buy his machining software and the software capable machine to run it. I see the potential, I wish I was capable and young enought to get involved with it.

You probably won't find a guy in the auto industry who'll be interested in running a CNC in an operating room environment. but bet on it, they will be doing so once Haas, GandL and Hardinge find out that there is money to be made in small hosptical room sized CNC's than in the huge hulking machines they've had the preference to make up until now.

Thre ALWAYS will be a place for CNC technicians. It may just NOT be in a "machine shop" anymore..Does anyone know the speeds and feeds for bone and what is the best cutter type to use?

They may export car sourcing to off shore, they may even do heart valve surgery in INdia at a fractin of hte coast of what it costs here - this too is being done offshore anymore - If you get in on the potential for bone CNC'ing ofr joint surgery, it may be quite some time before your job gets outsourced to some third world countlry.

CNCing won't be ended, it just may end up in some new technology that hasn't bee thought of or fully developed yet.

Sorry if this is some old wrinkles, I didn't take the time to read the whole thread. I was afraid of finding stuff that would only make me even more depressed than I alrady am.

Our shop is in Michigan, .

Sure there will always be a need for good programmers, but that need won't be filled by beginners, and it will be many years before a new guy will have much chance to beat an old-timer to a skilled position. My advise was to go for the sure thing, that can't be shipped to China. Not to mention the long hours that have been traditional trade marks of a job in machining. The point is right now there is no future for machining, and like it or not the best decision is not to gamble on whether or not there ever will be again.

DOn't think for a MINUTE that any job can't be outsourced.

This whole financial crisis is a way to level the playing field and decidely break unions among other things (hodpiysld, doctor fees, you name it).

Fact. high buck operations that would normally be done in fine hospitals are ALREADY being outsourced to India. ONe health care org will fly you there plus some members of your family, put you up in what is essentially a luxury hotel for the week/month needed to do the operation, PLUS provide you a living allowance and they STILL get it done cheaper than by doing it in the US or canada.

WHen the money gets big enough, for someone someplace to undercut the prevailing wage, someone will come in under market rate to do the work cheaper. THis is called the "umbrella effect" and it is well documented in college business books. Out on the street where degrees are laughed at, the same identical thing occurs when some SOB across the street undercuts your price to "steal work from you".

AT some level, I don't think some folks are afraid of what's happening with the economy. Very good, well trained people will soon work for pennies just to have an income. Some pretty well equipped shops will be on the market for pennies likewise because the market will be flooded with surplus machines from bankrupt businesses. Programmers will likewise be beaten down to the level of 3rd world wages simply because the whole frigging deal will collapse.

If, as so many say we are, the creators of technological innovations, we might be in good stead to come out of the growing calamity well positioned to do OK.

WELL managed shops, hospitals and everything else will be able to survive. Well positioned (low debt to equity) companies will also be able to survive the coming purges, blood baths actually. IT is going to literally be survival of the fittest, smartest, best funded. People who live from paycheck to paycheck or recievable check to machine payment, will have their nightmares. But people with skills SHOULD be able to muddle thru.

The only way that there won't be a future to machiningg will be if the Taliban or some other primitiave society over runs us and take us back to the stone age. Possible but not likely, Why? we've been to and seen the city and many of us sure as hell won't go back to the out country way of life. At some point, even the most pacifistic person will put their foot down and rise against too much of such tyrany. SOme people want to live civilized lives, those who don'[t simply can't and wont prosper in civilization.

No matter what you say, people in civilized societies need food, shelter, clothing, transportation, power, fuel, and other such fixations of civilization. By saying that CNC is no longer relevant, is like sayin that none of this stuff is relevant anymore. CNC is the camel in the tent - once it is in, you can't won't get it out.

People will want more, they will want it faster, they will want it made quicker, cheaper and more accurately. Once you're spoiled, you're hooked. IT is just a matter of time before this all turns around.

The ney sayers say that this is the worst of whatever singe 1994 or 1974 or 1983 or whatever, I was there then and things were tough but we survived via the use of our heads, our wits and our knowledge. Yes, there wasn't as much CNC then - it didn't exist or was WAY too expensive. but we survived. How, with machine shops full of mills and lathes that guys worked on/at to make stuff. Maybe this CNC thing helped by eliminating a lot of high school grade jobs. IT ain't like foks were not warned. Warnings were made, not heeded and things are going to hell.

Do what you want. Learn what you want. Become a machinist if you want. Anytime stuff is being made or will be made, there will be a time/place for machinists. My shop surviveld some pretty horrid downshifts in business. WE survived by keeping debt low and overhead likewise. We can barely survive on numbers that guys need daily in revenue. WHen they go under due to crippling overhead and low revenure, we' should still be here doing our little cottage industry. Are we worried, Yes, but not to a fever pitch. WE simply are much less likely to suffer the big losses that some of our competitors face.

The song goes something like this, "freedom is when you have nothing left to lose".I had to lose my business via a restructuring so as to protect the business capability/viability when I had kidney failure. I have some folks working for me who want to learn and continue the process - they are damn good and we need/deserve/support each other. WE have a similar style towards business, as in we work hard, we work harder when we have to and we don't intend to kill ourselves working. WE make enought to get by on/with and we do so more often than when we don't. Most of all, we like doing what we do - it is fun to go to work. things are different but they still haven't changed.

Learn CNC, make your mistakes, go off into some dead end careers. That is the American way. The world aint gonna end but if it does try, thre will be a whole bunch of stuf that will need fixing if we don't succeed. Broken stuff here can't be fixed by plants that are closed or by outsourced factories either. Times are gonna get tough. The tough will survive. And may be even in hospital surgery rooms running CNC's of the future.

Again you've missed the point. An intelligent person doesn't plan their future on speculation, they plan it on fact, and the fact is not only is the machine trade in the toilet right now, but it was in the same sad shape in the early 80's so this is not the first time in the length of my own career, and as it's said screw me once shame on you screw me twice shame on me! and the reason for this discussion was to inform a young person that at the moment a career choice in the machining trade may not be the best path to follow. Whether or not the trade makes a comeback, and if it does will it be in a short enough time to do them any good. It's not just that but,they should also consider their future from the standpoint that when they get to be our age do they want to be working the 12 hour shifts or do you think they might want to spend time with their family, provided they had the time or the energy after working those ridicules hours to even start a family. And what if they have health problems as they get older that might affect their ability to keep such long hours then what? Oh and let me know when I can get a flight to China have a boil lanced and fly back to the USA for the same price or less as having it done here and I will plan my vacation around it.

Again you've missed the point. An intelligent person doesn't plan their future on speculation, they plan it on fact,....

Nonsense, an intelligent person plans their future almost entirely on speculation; neither you nor I have any idea precisely what the future holds. Did you predict the current worldwide economic chaos a year or so ago? Twenty years ago did you predict how manufacturing would decline in the U.S.?

Your approach is to stick your head where the sun don't shine wailing woe is me the sky has fallen. I suppose this attitude does give you some sort of security; if you never try you can never fail. Did you really read and understand what NC Cams wrote. He is not a Pollyanna singing all is well. He, like many business owners, knows that sometimes **** happens, but he doesn't let it beat him down. I think I would much rather adopt his attitude; at least I would know then that I tried, I didn't just give up.

When did say not to try? I only said try the thing that has the best chance of success. OK let me rephrase that statement I agree we do speculate but we use the facts that we know to do that speculation. The reason I made that statement was in response to statement that the machining trade was going to turn around but the statement was not supported by anything that showed that it was in the process of turning around now or anytime soon. Did I predict this down turn 20 years ago the answer is no. Did I predict it 10 years ago the answer is YES, and I started looking for another way to earn an income. The shop that I worked in at that time had around 30 employee's when I left it to start my own business 7 years ago, today all that are left there are the owner his brother and his son. For the first couple of years after starting my business I worked part time in a large machine shop in Livonia, I stopped in there for a visit last July to say hi and the only people there were the owner and his brother. Why don't you go ask them what a good career move would be? What is it about a career in the medical field that you call "not trying"? So then do you think that this young person asking for information doesn't need to know all the pros and cons so that he can make an intelligent decision? If your already deep into the trade and or a business owner in the trade what choice do you have but dig in and hope everything works out. But that's not what we were talking about. I take it if you were caught in quicksand instead of asking for help getting out you would say come on in the waters fine, misery loves company. What a selfish attitude I on the other hand prefer to give both sides of the story and let the other person decide for themselves. Please don't respond back and say I only gave one side of the story I already know that, I just gave the side no one else was going to give.

NC Cams you cheered me up with that comment :)

the people who rule us have more concern for those who shower BEFORE they go to work as opposed to those who shower AFTER they come home

Made me think of a very apt comment someone else said on these boards a while back:

"You know you're an engineer when... You wash your hands before you go to the loo"

Stainless Steel chips in your underpants are not good lol.

Oh, and bye the way... what recession? I'm stacked out with so much work I'm gonna have to work over xmas

consider yourself fortunate; you are busy now, but how busy will you be 6 months from now ? It is possible that failing businesses might even leave some of your invoices unpaid. Don't crow; these are troubled times ahead and it has affected and will certainly affect many people with extreme financial hardship.

Depending on what line of work he's in, some shops can do well during recession, not me!

but how busy will you be 6 months from now

I'll still be as busy :)

I got a very narrow niche market, there's only about 4 places in the UK that do what I do and I'm rather better than the competition.

We just got an order from our main competitor for some items cos they can't make them, which was rather nice.

Depending on what line of work he's in, some shops can do well during recession, not me!

yeah ? what kind ? who does business when business is bad ?

yeah ? what kind ? who does business when business is bad ?

Other than Wal-Mart (joke), at the moment, Defense, Medical Equiptment and snow plow parts.

Defense is obvious, anything from balistic panels to pieces parts which probably end up in missles. Endoscopy equiptment manufacture is getting busier and another medical equiptment manufacture can't find enough people to run swiss lathes. A company that I know of that makes hard faced snow plow parts claims to be recession proof... They have patents on thier designs and they save city, county and states money, they are planning a 30,000 sq/ft addition right now. A friend of mine is working at a shop as a laser operator making snow plow parts for another big company, they are pushing him into 12 hour days 7 days a week.

Not everyone is in the toilet at the moment, just 99% of us.

The truck shop next to me is busy... Granted nobody wants to pay anything, they are doing what they can to keep thier trucks and trailers on the road because they either can't or don't want to invest in new vehicles and or equiptment. I get a little bit of work out of that, but not much.

So like I said, depending on what line of work he's in, some shops can do well even during a recession.

yeah ? what kind ? who does business when business is bad ?

Bankruptcy trustees.:D

As mc-motorsports mention medical equipment is one; we are a bit related making stuff for people with a disability. Things probably will slow down but it takes months for us to see much effect. The flip side is it also takes a long time for us to recover and we never do much better in the boom times.

that's still hit'n'miss jobs; you are lucky for now but you'll have hungry competitors competing for those jobs and sometimes they get work because the buyer likes to know his options, then things might get a bit tighter; I remember things got a bit slow at one place and I wound up doing some small 2 inch parts on a 30 hp takumi, which was a nice break from polishing the crap out it.

who does business when business is bad

It does depend what type of industry you're in I guess, but I'm very busy at the moment! So busy, in fgact, my boss wants to get more machines and for me to train other folk so that we can make more stuff.

Which is a whole different can of worms...