TechnoJunkman,

Thanks for the comments. I already have some DC servos and Gecko, step and direction drivers. Not yet too sure whether the servos are up to the job but Jeff of HomeCNC assures me they are fine. They are 430oz/in servos and so far, during testing, they seem fine. I just have one slight doubt about the top end speed. I could really do with a little more and will probably decide to go for bigger motors some time in the future.

Thanks for looking in,

Mike

Progress is painfully slow but at least there is some. Z Axis almost complete and I must say that working with aluminium is far preferable to MDF though, you will appreciate this machine was never going to be made completely of aluminium - composite is still the ultimate aim. However, the beauty of aluminium versus MDF is that once machined and bolted together, the whole assembly just slid onto the Y rails as easy as anything. No adjustments needed at all - brilliant.

Picture shows it as it is at the moment. It still needs taking apart and cleaning up before final assembly.

Despite all my CAD drawings I managed to order one of the pieces of aluminium the wrong size (chair) I don't know how it happened but it did. Instead of ordering a piece 200 x 300mm for the Z axis plate, I ordered a piece 175 x 205mm. Problem is, I cannot figure out where those measurements came from - must be an age thing :) Now I'll have to wait while I order another piece :(

Mike

Hey Mike nice job, I know that you were hoping that you would be making better progress but your are making progress.

Do you think that it would be possible to zip and attach the schematic I am really interested in the circuit but can not make out all the info.

Marm,

I will have to see if I can get the original file from my electronics buddy. I'm sure there won't be a problem but it may take a couple of days. You will have to keep looking in :)

Mike

Its good to see you still progressing Mike, keep up the good work, you will have that "crazy cnc smile" before you know it.

Russell.

Marm,

I will have to see if I can get the original file from my electronics buddy. I'm sure there won't be a problem but it may take a couple of days. You will have to keep looking in :)

Mike

Thanks I will keep on the lookout for it. I appreciate it.

Mark

Mark,

I haven't forgotten the schematic - just not got the info yet.

Some progress to report on the Z Axis. It is almost finished though not without one or two little snags. Even using aluminium, I found there was no substitute for accuracy. When I tried to mount the THK blocks onto the face of the aluminium plate, even though they were accurately aligned with a straight edge, the binding was excessive. To solve the problem, as you can see in the photos, I machined two recesses of just 1mm. This gave me two, planar surfaces and two indexing edges to butt the blocks against. Once I had done this and assembled the whole thing, it slid like a dream. I had checked the plate and to all intents and purposes, it was flat - but obviously not flat enough :)

Just got to add the side braces for the spindle plate, the spindle mount, servo mounts, ballscrew nut retainer and fit a bush into the ballscrew pulley as it is oversized. Oh dear, nowhere near finished yet :( Shouldn't take too long though.

By the way, this thing (the Z Axis) is beginning to weigh quite a bit now, and I thought aluminium was suposed to be light :) Another advantage to having the Z servo only lift the spindle plate rather than the whole assembly as is done on some other designs.

I'm getting there, slowly.

Mike

Edit: Two more photos added to show recesses for mounting the blocks and the whole assembly.

Marm,

I have got the files and they are attached to this post. If you want to view the actual working schematic and layout, you will have to download 'Eagle Lite' from http://www.cadsoft.de/freeware.htm It is freeware and my electronics buddy says it's one of the better programs he has used.

It must also be pointed out that anyone using the circuit does so at their own risk and my buddy can not be held responsible for how it is used.

You will note that he has also included some excellent notes on how the circuit works, along with some construction notes. I hope this helps.

Mike

Mike thanks for the schematic and all the other info. I will try and see if I can get one of these built.

Mark

It doesn't take long to drop off the leader board in this forum - there is so much going on out there!!! If you don't do anything for a few days, the world overtakes you :)

A little bit more to report. The Z axis is now complete and working smoothly. Mind you, it was not without its difficulties. Every time I tightened the bolts the whole thing became stiff and lumpy. Eventually traced the problem to a very slightly out of square ballnut housing. Boy are these things sensitive. I am very pleased with the re-modelled, aluminium Z axis but it now means I have to come up with a neat idea to join this to the Y axis ballnut. I want to fit brushes in the slot in the MDF to protect the Y axis ballscrew so cannot have a large housing. The idea is to have two sets of brushes, one coming up from the bottom and one going down from the top, meeting in the middle. Then, as the Y axis travels along, the brushes will part around the link between Y and Z. If you look at the photo of the close up of the ballscrews you can perhaps visualise what I am planning. All I need now is a solution to neatly join the back of the Z Axis (that really rough looking aluminium which is actually quite a good finish - honest) to the Y axis ballnut.

The other two photos show the completed Z Axis in situ. The one looking at the end of the gantry shows, I hope, how I managed to get the overhang down to a reasonable level. This was the main aim of the re-build.

Mike

My motors arrived today, all the way from Oregon to Liverpool in just over two weeks - not bad. I have to credit Jeff Davis of HomeCNC for some excellent packaging, each motor was separately packed and all three well insulated against the vagaries of all the postal systems they went through.

They look the business and I am pleased they are relatively light in weight which is just what I need for my rather unconventional, cantilevered gantry.

Just need to make the decision between Gecko or Rutex now and I'll soon have these beauties singing.

Mike


what kind of motor are these , they only have 2 wire plus a tach?
what would u use to drive them, name and modle plz

nice job on the build

Eloid,

The motors are 430 oz/in servo motors from Jeff at HomeCNC http://www.homecnc.info/ They are actually PolySci C23-L55 motors rated at 36v and 3amps http://www.polysci.com/docs/moc23series.PDF (look at page 3, last column, under the winding code of 30) They have a 250 line encoder already mounted by Jeff. If you are interested in the motors, I would suggest you get in touch with Jeff as he seems to offer a pretty good deal.

I am using Gecko 320s to drive the servos and so far (not wishing to tempt providence) have had no problems whatsoever.

Hope this helps - all the info is in my log elsewhere but I do appreciate it is rather long and trying to find the right place is not easy.

Mike

Hi Mike,

Certenly it is an interesting idea, BUT have you thought about noise, is the wall an inside or outside wall?? as when the cutter is working on MDF and running for an hour or so the transmitted noist through the frame into the wall and the rest of the school may well be a bit OTT!!

www.foundry-fopars.co.uk

Roger, Swindon uk.

Roger,

I cannot say I had really thought of that particular issue though noise shouldn't be a problem as the Design Technology building is self contained and quite a distance from any other building. Having said that, the wall is rather large and would make an excellent sounding board :) It will be interesting to hear what the effect is.

I am just in the process of having my workshop, at home, extended to make room for the machine when I retire from teaching and the wall the beast will be mounted on will be an outside wall that will be well insulated both in terms of temperature and noise.

The basic machine is all but finished and provided I can get a reasonable amount of time on it this week, it may well be ready for one or two test cuts. I still have to mount the limit and home switches but I may just have to test it out first :)

Mike

Come on, get 'er done! Lesser people would have quit a long time ago. 2.5 yrs! Seriously, I do like your innovative design. Do you have some current pictures showing the complete router as mounted on the wall?
Jim.

Jim,

If I think on tomorrow, I will take some shots of the whole machine for you.

Mike

As promised, a few photos of the very nearly completed machine in its entirety.

There is some vibration when I run the machine at high accelerations but I believe this will be minimised when I enclose the gantry and fit another diagonal brace at the back of the gantry.

Mike

Nice work Mike, looking forward to the first cuts :)

Russell.

Looking good, really interesting concept. Can't wait to possibly see some videos of it in action.

Yes, that looks really good. You take good pictures. I agree with the others, videos will be needed soon. Can't wait as well.

A couple of pretty p[oor pictures now - I think I was too close for the aged camera we use at school. However, you can just about make out the way I joined the Y and Z axes. I am very pleased with the way it has turned out, nice and tight yet smooth to move.

Did some tests with a pen mounted instead of a spindle ( I wonder what percentage of builders do this :) - rather a lot I imagine) and drew some squares and circles. I was quite surprised to find the squares 100% accurate - well chuffed :D Next I drew a 200mm circle then a 200mm square, tangent to the circle. I was very surprised to see quite large radii in the corners and thought it was something to do with look ahead in Mach3. I posted a question on the Mach forum and Art said it was the CV (constant velocity) settings and he directed me to other threads on the subject. Boy, am I glad he did, it was quite enlightening. I now fully understand the principles of CV and how acceleration and feedrates effect the results.

After reading up I reset my acceleration as high as I could, before the geckos faulted, and managed to get up to 2500 mm/sec/sec - I previously had it set at 150. The results were good with virtually no radii. However, at these sort of accelerations any slight flex in the build is magnified horrendously, as the mass of the machine suddenly changes direction. I was also cutting/drawing at 3000mm/min and the machine seemed to be flying. Despite some vibration, the actual results were more than acceptable. I doubt I will ever cut at those kind of speeds but it was fun experimenting :)

I am just waiting for a response from Germany where I can buy a very nice 1050 watt spindle for 299 Euros - the self same spindle in the UK will cost £310 or 457 Euro - how can this be!!!!

Might be some wait,

Mike

I was very surprised to see quite large radii in the corners and thought it was something to do with look ahead in Mach3. I posted a question on the Mach forum and Art said it was the CV (constant velocity) settings and he directed me to other threads on the subject. Boy, am I glad he did, it was quite enlightening. I now fully understand the principles of CV and how acceleration and feedrates effect the results.



Mike, if you're feeling adventurous, you might want to take a look at the development version (very early development) of Mach's successor, Quantum. It uses S-curve acceleration which will allow very fast machines to run much smoother, while minimizing or eliminating the corner rounding caused be Mach3's CV.

http://www.machsupport.com/Downloads/Quantum%202.0.zip

Video explanation: http://www.artsoftcontrols.com/Videos/QuantumPlanner/QuantumPlanner.swf

Gerry,

Funny you should mention Quantum. After I finished my previous post, I went to the Mach forum and read through the whole of the Quantum thread and have just downloaded it - sounds very promising indeed - and yes, I am feeling adventurous :)

Thanks,

Mike

I have been using Quantum on my machine for a while now. Runs very good.

Joe

Nice Mike, Nice.. now keep going.. I'm still keeping tabs on this


I am just waiting for a response from Germany where I can buy a very nice 1050 watt spindle for 299 Euros - the self same spindle in the UK will cost £310 or 457 Euro - how can this be!!!!


what is that spindle mike? - I blame that piece of water that just gets in the way - this side we just seem to be up for getting ripped off!!

Pat,
The spindle I am after is the UFM 1050. It is twice the power of one I already have (UFM 500) which was bought from Unimatic some four or five years ago for over £300. I am very impressed with the 500. It has done a huge amount of work in all materials including a lot of aluminium cutting and has outlived the original Kress motor by more than three times. I think it has far superior bearings.

It appears the UFM spindle is quite widely available but it is only the first site, below, that offers any pricing. The third site, Unimatic, are the distributors for Isel in the UK, the second site and it is Unimatic who are quoting £310. The VK site has a price list where the spindle, with a 6mm and 8mm collet, costs 299 Euros. The last site is another one that cropped up when googling for UFM 1050.

I emailed VK on Wednesday but have not heard from them yet - I shall keep trying because if they can supply me, and there is no reason why they shouldn't as we are all in the EU, it will be quite a saving.

http://www.vk-technik.de/maschinenzubehoer.html
http://www.iselautomation.de/products/product.php?lang=de&ID=p116
http://www.unimatic.co.uk/education/spindle-motor-1050.asp
http://www.solectro.se/?Link=http://www.solectro.se/Products/Product.asp?ItemId=736

Mike

Joe & Gerry,

I'm really looking forward to giving Quantum a go next week - I've got to do something while waiting for the spindle, what better than to play with the software and get to know it better?

Mike

I think that as of right now, the only difference between Mach3 and quantum is the accel/decel. At least that you'll notice, anyway.

Gerry,

But that's the whole point isn't it? If I can use higher accelerations, without the mechanics complaining, any job can be cut so much quicker. Reading through the Quantum and CV threads on the Mach forum, they suggest a threefold increase in speed and acceleration without the loss of accuracy experienced when running with CV on a machine where accelerations and speed are currently low due to whatever reasons, be it underpowered or just too massive.

Although I can run my machine at high accelerations, it does judder and jerk quite a lot and if running Quantum alleviates this problem, it will be well worth it.

Mike

You said "play with the software and get to know it better". What I meant was, it's no different than Mach3 right now, so there isn't much else to learn about. Unless you don't know much about Mach3. ;)

Gerry,

You got it in one - I don't know too much about mach3 just yet, only tinkered round the edges while testing out my machine. I am learning something new about it every day and despite reading the manual a number of times, things don't really sink in till you have an opportunity to use the functions. This is precisely why I now know about CV and now 'S' curve acceleration - you're never too old to learn :) :) besides which, play is one of the best forms of education.

Mike

Loaded Quantum today and had a play. Before Quantum, the maximum acceleration I could safely muster on X (this is the axis that has to work the hardest and the one that faults first) was 150mm/sec^2. It was this setting that was giving me the radiussed corners when operating at high feedrates with CV (constant velocity) on.

I am not sure whether to believe the figures or not but with Quantum, I have crept my acceleration up to 10000, yes ten thousand, mm/sec^2 and the machine still runs fine and at fairly high feedrates the jerking is negligible - I'm gobsmacked. Obviously I cannot jog at this acceleration as Quantum is not yet set up to use all the functionality of Mach3 and if I did jog the X axis it faulted at anything over 200mm/sec^2. Interestingly, the Y and Z axes both coped admirably at the very high rates, even when jogging.

A question to those who know better than I - Although I could increase my acceleration substantially, I did not notice a significant difference between say, 5000 and 10000 mm/sec^2. Is this a case of diminishing returns and/or is there an optimum setting?

However, all this increase in acceleration did not manifest itself in a staggeringly faster running of the 'Roadrunner' file than my previous settings, but the accuracy was an order of magnitude better along with the jerk free operation.

Art and Brian, you are definitely on a winner here and may it not be too long before you can give it some of your precious time.

Mike

I have never been totally convinced about the fixing method for the pulleys onto the motors and ballscrews and despite assurances that everything should be OK, my gut feeling got the better of me and I ordered some taper bushes.

The pulleys are currently held in place with two grub screws at right angles to each other. The problems I see are that with direction constantly changing, surely the screws will eventually wear and introduce some slop in the system? An alternative was suggested whereby I drill through the pulley boss and through the motor and ballscrew shafts and pin the pulley to the shaft. I was still not convinced that these would not eventually wear and waaaaaaaay back in this thread I wrote about wanting to buy taperlock pulleys.

Having already purchased plain pulleys, any taper fittings would have to be retro fit. Flicking through the Automotion catalogue brought up the ideal solution and as you can see from the photo, a pretty neat one too. The large one at the back has been taken apart so you can see the three components - an inner, tapered sleeve threaded at one end, an outer, tapered sleeve and a nut. The two sleeves are slotted so they can expand/shrink to fit as the nut is tightened.

The beauty of these is that they do not leave any scarring on the shafts and the contact area is all round the shaft, resulting in much higher torque rating than grub screws.

I'll feel much happier once these are fitted :)

Not much happened over the past couple of weeks - it's been the Easter break at school.

Mike

Just a quick update as I've not had a huge amount of time on the project recently.

The taper bushes work extremely well and I'm very glad I fitted them. I now no longer have to worry about things working loose.

Managed to get limit and home switches mounted on both the Y and Z axes and working on the siting of the X axis switches. Also got Mach talking to the switches and it was very encouraging to see the machine home itself - brilliant :banana:

Unfortunately I am having difficulties tracking down my prefered spindle, a UHM1050. I found a place in Germany selling it for 299Euros (£205) but they don't seem keen on replying to my requests. The same spindle through the UK distributor is £310 (450Euros)!!!! Anyone in Germany able to pick one up for me? Send me a pm if you can help.

Mike

Edit: Oooops - Got my nomenclature wrong - it is a UFM 1050 I'm lookong for.

My frustration is growing at not being able to obtain the spindle I want at the right price. It just galls me to think I may have to pay through the nose for something I know is available at a reasonable price.

Maybe in the meantime somebody can recommend an alternative spindle with a standard, 64mm collar for mounting?

Right, moaning over, some slight progress has been made to strengthen the gantry. The photos show that a back has been added and also a web between the two sides. This has had an enormous effect and a gantry, that was reasonably stiff, is now very stiff indeed. Nowhere near the strength or stiffness of the intended carbon version, but I am sure it is adequate enough for machining MDF and the like to make its replacement.

Plans are well underway for building an extension to my home workshop to house this beast in the non too distant future. :)

Edit: Oooops - Got my nomenclature wrong - it is a UFM 1050 I'm lookong for.

That makes a lot more sense, Googled the other version and got your post and some weird postcard webpage, amazing what difference a space and a letter can make...lol.

You could get a standard type of router for now and keep looking for the UFM 1050 for a reasonable price.

Good to see progress :D

Russell.

Russell,

I've taken your advice and ordered a standard, die grinder to fit the mount I have made. It is relatively cheap at £105 but again, I am sure those on the right side of the economic pond can get the same for much less. I have ordered the Milwaukee DG30QE Short Nose Die Grinder. It should be with me today or tomorrow so, at last, I will be able to see my machine cut something :)

The Milwaukee has electronic speed control, soft start and, more importantly, a very short overhang from the mounting collar to the collet.

More soon and hopefully a video to boot :)

Mike

Good news Mike, though I get a little nervous when people take my advice...

Looking forward to seeing the machine in action, I'm sure most of us can relate to not getting much time to spend on their machines, but you have kept at it and have a great machine for your efforts, thumbs up for that :)

Bet you can't wait to bring your "baby" home.

Russell.

I just don't know what to say, I am that excited :banana: :banana: :banana: :banana: I have been playing for the last week and getting so carried away, I forgot to tell you guys that the machine works!!!

After initial testing and setting up, I got my best Year 7 pupil (11 years old) to make the first cut. He was so chuffed. In year 7, I get my students to design their own logo based on their initials. We then turn the logos into stamps by machining a slither of extrude polystyrene then adding a handle. It's a nice little project and the school's small, Isel machine is quite happy machining these at 20mm/sec.

As soon as I can arrange it, I will get a video done and post the cutting of one of these logos. They are only 50mm square and it looks a little lost on my machine - thinks, I could concatenate the whole class's work and machine the lot in one go - that would be impressive. The fixture would be interesting too.

I have also machined a mould for a small model aircraft wing and the results are beyond my expectation. It took four and a half hours to machine one half with a 0.2mm step over on a 450mm x 125mm block of modelboard, a filled polyurethane.

One very unexpected bonus of my unusual design is that the table, that the workpiece is mounted on, has absolutely no vibration to it whatsoever, no matter how hard and fast the machine is going. This is the result of the table being completely de-coupled from the machine.

I will share photos and videos just as soon as I can but I just had to share the news tonight.

A a massive thanks to all those who helped along the way - it may well have taken over three years to accomplish but it has already been worth every last minute.

Mike

Mike, that is very exciting. I haven't posted much because I haven't had anything to add, but have been watching your progress closely.
Can't wait to see the photos and video.

Trent

That is great news Mike !!

You get 10 bonus points for sitcking with it for so long :D

While I am excited to hear it is working, I think video is still needed, not that we don't trust you or anything...heh

Great to hear you getting the young'uns interested as well, careful though, they learn fast, keep a few "tricks" for youself:).

Russell

I knew that you'd get it done. It takes me a while to get things done as well. After 31 years... I just learned to tie my shoes for the first time last week. Ok... so maybe you are ahead of me a bit!

Thanks for the comments guys - without your encouragement, the journey would have been much longer if indeed, it ever ended.

I have posted a video on YouTube called 'Off the wall CNC' but I'm not sure whether I can embed it here but I'll try.

Well, that seems to have worked too :) I'm having a good week. The video had to be reworked to get the size down to something sensible and the resolution has suffered somewhat but you'll get the idea. I had intended to post the logo cutting video first but as this piece, a wing mould, was already being cut and I did'nt have time to do both - the piece shown took nearly five hours to cut. That is actually twice as fast as previous moulds done on my little Isel machine at full whack. The piece is 450mm long x 125mm wide and the stepover, with a 2mm end mill, was 0.2mm. I used Mach Quantum for this cut and it was in exact stop mode as I did not want any rounding of the leading edge of the mould. Quantum is significantly better than Mach 3 in exact stop in terms of vibration. Cutting speed was 3500mm/min (nearly 140"/min)

Don't be too critical of the table, it's only a temporary affair but I could not wait any longer before seeing some action. Dust collection too has yet to added hence the vacuum cleaner hose in the shot.


<object width="425" height="350"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/S5ja0PICoF4"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/S5ja0PICoF4" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" width="425" height="350"></embed></object>

May shoot some more video when I have something more impressive to cut.

Mike

Is there a tolerance option in mach? In EMC2 you can do a G64 Px.xxx (blend tolerance mode) which would let it still blend where it could and still stay within the programmed path by whatever you set for th P amount.

sam

Sam,

Yes there is, well, sort of. In cv mode (constant velocity) you can set an angle at which, anything greater will be ignored and become exact stop. Problem is, I'm not quite sure how this works or how the angle is measured. If you consider the bottom of my airfoil, each little segment has an angle, to each other, of close to but never more than 180 degrees. As the tool climbs up toward the leading edge it gets very close to vertical before then going horizontal across the flange. The tool is moving through ninety degrees yet on a drawing it is 270 degrees. What do I tell Mach?

I really need to play some more with Mach to find out how these things work.

Mike

Interesting - no clue as I have not used mach.

Very neat machine BTW. Nice Job. (forgot to say that in the previous post)

now that is slick !

Mike,

Really enjoyed following your thread. I can feel your enthusiasm with the end result.

All I can say is you have lucky students.

Cheers.

Nice screenset in Mach by the way :)

Great work Mike, that has gotta be the best thing to come from the UK since Def Leppard :D

Sorry can't help you with the Mach settings, I don't use it either, but I'm sure someone will chip in with the info you need.

Keep us informed of any updates, I would have a beer for you but it is 9.00 am here, bit early yet...

Russell

I wasn't happy with the first set of mould parts as the leading edge of the section was jagged. It is a problem I've mentioned here before and I am pretty certain it has something to do with the way .stl files are handled by the toolpath software.

Over the weekend I have been playing with some other software that enabled me to import IGES files. This has produced a much better toolpath and this morning I managed to find time to set up one of the polyurethane blocks.

This time I decided to try running the program, in Mach3, with cv (constant velocity) turned on and set an angle greater than 85 degrees for exact stop. I have to say I am now converted to cv!!! The program that took nearly five hours last week was machined in under two hours :eek: , that's some saving. There is an obvious stop at the leading edge but the machine is rock solid. I am well chuffed. The only slight concern is that the accuracy of the section may be compromised slightly but when I created the toolpath, I set the accuracy as high as possible so I am presuming the line length, for each station, is very short. If that is the case, the rounding at each juncture will be miniscule and probably not woth worrying about.

I would like to have posted a video but it all happened so fast, I have not had chance to set up the camera. Maybe a bit later.

Mike

Say Mike, came accross http://stores.ebay.de/CNC-Plus and thought of your spindle searching!

My congrats BTW nice.. enjoy!!

Pat

Pat,

Nice find - That's not a bad price for the 1050W Kress either. Pity they don't list the UFM 1050, the one I'm really after. :(

Thanks for the link - I'll have to brush up on my German.

Mike

Mine arrived mike...I like it :)
http://www.cnczone.com/forums/showthread.php?p=320536#post320536

Pat,
Thanks for the link - I'll have to brush up on my German.

No need, just email the guy, he'll get back to you. :)

10Bulls,

I emailed CNC-Plus a couple of days ago and just got a reply this morning. I enquired as to whether he could supply the UFM1050, though he does not list it, and his response was positive. He contacted Isel and says he can sell it to me for 320Euro, not a great deal more than the 299Euro I have seen it for. Provided the postage is not too exhorbitant, I will be ordering one today.

He did say he thought it was expensive at 320Euro - I have not told him it would cost £320 in the UK :) but I firmly believe it has much better bearings than the Kress and they do come at a price.

Thanks again for the link,

Mike

Cool! The UFM1050 does look a beastie! (I hope you get pens and sweets too)
One thing I notice though, (I only looked briefly), but I only saw collet sizes up to 8mm. The 10mm collet on the Kress is going to be very handy.
Fingers crossed that the bearings will hold up! :)
I know what you mean on prices...The cheapest UK price I found for the kress was approaching twice the german price and that was trade, ex VAT!!!
Online shopping and babel fish translation must rank highly on the list of 20th centuries greatest inventions. :D

Well, I've been and gone and ordered the beast - turns out to be a little more expensive though as CNC-Plus had not taken the German VAT into account so the total cost, with three extra collets was 397Euros which equates to about £267 - that's still £80 cheaper than I paid for the UFM500 nearly four years ago!!!

I'm sure the extra grunt will be useful. The only problem is that it's now the Summer break and my machine is still in school. I might just have to find an excuse to get in there and see this beastie make chips :)

Mike

Finally got my spindle of choice today :) complete with sweeties and freebie pen, just like 10Bulls. I have to say this thing is a beast beside my UFM500. I just was not expecting it to be so much beefier - take a look at the photo of the two next to each other - no prizes for guessing which is which :) I also got three extra collets 3mm, 6mm and 6.35 (1/4") besides the 8mm one fitted. Interestingly the collets are made by Kress but seem to fit with a bit of effort. They are the same taper but the shoulder is just a smidging bigger, making it difficult to push home in the collet nut.

All I've got to do now is invalidate the warranty :eek: by cutting off the cable and attaching it to the machine - dammed thing has got a European plug on it so I can't even plug it in to see it spin :(

Mike

Hi Mike,

Love your work; it was a good read from start to finish. I have a suggestion for you that may help speed up the final part of your project. Why not wrap the MDF in carbon, remove part of the MDF and reinforce with metal or alloy inserts in the load areas that you can tap later? MDF is a good core material and would be very strong structurally when covered in carbon.

If you router the inside of the panels like a kitchen door (remove some of the meat from the panel) it would make a lighter and structurally stronger part once covered.
I know the finish won’t be the best, but it would do the job easily. It would save you time and give strength and rigidity.

I have used lots of different core materials extensively. You will find MDF is fine and quite up to the job. Using MDF as a sandwich core is cheap and the fact you already have it looking at you would make it a good proposition IMHO. Just a thought that’s all. Please don’t take my suggestion the wrong way; I know you are planing a composite arm for your project I don’t know if you had thought about reverse moulding?

RaceComp make lots of Autoclave cured carbon parts, from race parts to medical operating tables.

Here are a few pictures of some of our parts.

If you need any specs on load lay-up or pre-preg recommendation I would be happy to lend a hand. However I feel you already know your way around this field 

A basic out line for me would be 4x300g directional @ 90 deg with overlap at 150mm on all edges and 2 x 200g 2x2 for a finish layer. A clear two pack paint over the finished surface area for a better result if it’s the look your also after.

The arms in the picture are a one shot moulded item, 100% pre-preg carbon part and are hollow. Surgeons hang off these legs, literally. They will take over a ton in weight in the final layout of an operating theatre table leg attachment.

A damn good read mate!!!!

Steve Phillips
RaceComp

www.racecomp.com.au

Steve,

Thanks for the compliments - I presume you did not read through the whole lot in one go - that would be some task!!

I had thought about using the MDF as a core material but felt the end result would be quite heavy compared with using some other materials. Something I use a lot of is Rohacell, an acrylic foam that is resistant to virtually all resins, can be obtained in various densities, has very good compressive strength and can take the temperatures needed for MTM pre-pregs. Another advantage of Rohacell is that I can make the sheets slightly oversize in thickness, put in strips of aluminium where parts are to be bolted together, put on the layers of pre-preg then place the whole lot in a heated, hydraulic press to cure, knowing the Rohacell will crush to the correct thickness and apply internal pressure to the carbon.

These are still only thoughts at the moment as I really need to get down to wringing the best out of this, temporary, setup before getting it to replace itself.

Thanks for the interest - I will be pleased to answer any questions and read any advice you may have.

Mike

Hi,
I am a D&T teacher here in Australia. I am building the plywood approach Rockcliff Plans. I could not get the school i work for to put their hands in their pockets to buy a $4500 machine. I am building my own and funding it myself.My boss said depending on "if it works" (love their trust in my professionalism) they might allow me to build one for them. I will love building my own on a budget but will spend up big when it comes to the schools unit.
cheers

colin300

Colin,

I was in the same predicament and my solution was the same - I funded the machine and it is mine, but while I'm at the school, students can use it with my supervision and when I leave, it comes home with me. It is about time schools realised they have to spend some money if education is to try and keep pace with technological change, and keep our students informed.

Good luck with your project and I hope you get as much pleasure out of the experience as I did. I still chuckle to myself every time I see the thing move :) :)

Mike

I finally read through the entire thread....all I can say is...

BRILLIANT!!

You're probably on summer break but I would love to see some more video of the machine.

Question: are you going to be able to machine aluminum.

Can't wait to see the carbon version...hope it doesn't take 3 years to materiallize.

Brian

Brian,

The intention was to be able to machine aluminium but I have not tried it yet. That was also the reason for going for the higher powered spindle. The problem with the current, MDF gantry is that there is inevitably a little flex in it. Having said that, there is far less than was anticipated and I have every confidence that, provided light cuts are taken, it will indeed cut aluminium.

I think I mentioned, right at the start of the thread, that this would be a very long journey of discovery and I am only half way there! I can see that one of my problems will be to get the enthusiasm to do the carbon version if the current one is working well and capable of doing what I need it to do. I hope this is not the case as I am as interested as you in knowing how a carbon machine will fare.

What I will say is that without the Zone, non of this would ever have happened. This community works so well and I recommend it to anyone.

Thanks guys,

Mike

PS There will be some more video but you are right, it will have to wait till we are back in school.

Well,
Hang in there, I'm sure that I'm not the only one that holds what you've accomplished so far in awe...and hopefully we can provide the "motivation" necessary to push you forward....ha

I've been acquiring part and pcs for my own big gantry router...and like you I've been paralyzed just thinking about the electronics, but so many people are willing to help and that makes it seem possible.

Any pics of the smaller cnc that you mention throughout the thread. I was thinking that I maybe need to start smaller and get something working.

Brian

Brian,

You dropped lucky, I happened to be in school doing a bit of machining on my machine when I saw your post. I have taken a few pics of the school's small, Isel machine. It cost £4000 some five years ago. I have to say, it is a bit of a toy really, despite its ball screws. The Z axis can be moved quite easily by grabbing the top and moving it in the X direction. It seems to pivot around the Y and introduces a lot of play.

I have a similar machine at home but it is much better in the way it is constructed. When I get home, I will post some pictures of that too. It is probably an easier machine to copy and is basically made from extruded sections of aluminium, all of which can be purchased from Isel.

I'm not sure I agree with the philosophy of starting small. You will have to pay out twice for most items and you will have just the same problems whether they be on a small machine or a large one. Also, small can be more awkward to work on. My approach was to spend my big money on the parts that really matter i.e. the linear guides and ball screws and at a size that would do anything I had in mind. These items can be re-used if I decide to build another machine, without having to spend more.

My advice would be to dive in at the size you really want.

Mike

Hey, thanks again for the quick response.

I've been waffling on the big vs small approach. I have the big linear slides and screws and was planning the 80/20 approach. You're right though, as I've been looking for smaller rails and screws for a 2'x2' on epay, I could just spend that money on getting the 4x5 done. Nothing having a spare grand or 3 burning a hole in you pocket can't solve...right! The other thought is to do a Joe2000, quick, cheap, fast and in a hurry, to start learning the software end of this...I know I wont be satisfied with this though.

So I don't totally hijack your build thread. How were you planning the carbon fiber parts.. Do you need a core material, like foam or mdf..do you just lay up layers of fiber and epoxy them? In looking at fiberglass kayaks the core is the thin strips of cedar and the glass/epoxy is the strengh. I have seen some cool lost foam builds of model aircraft where it looks like the foam is the mold and the glass/epoxy actually is structural on its own and I've been looking through a few experimental aircraft build logs and some of them do vac formed carbon wings over foam..I just haven't found and good tuitorials of the technique. Any links that describe the vac. bag process to learn more about this. You mentioned using the big guy to build the carbon version so I'm assuming that you'll have to cut the parts out after vac forming them.

Thanks again,
BG

Brian,

If you look at post 359, you'll get an idea of how I intend to do the carbon version. The whole thing will be cooked in an oven, or a heated press, to cure the resin. The materials I will be using are called pre-pregs, where the resin/hardener mix is already in the carbon cloth/unidirectional fibre.

Elsewhere in this tome there is a more detailed explanation of the materials and how I propose to use them - just haven't got the time just now to find out where :)

I haven't forgotten about the other Isel machine and if I get time tonight, I will post the pics.

Mike

Brian,

Here are some pictures of my own Isel machine. As I said previously, this is a much better machine than the one in school and I have done a lot of very accurate work using it, including work in aluminium. You will have to excuse the mess and the dust - it gets everywhere with the builders having to go through the existing workshop to build the extension.

The other pictures are of work in progress on my new den :) The extension will double the space I have at the moment and, when finished, it will measure 8 metres x 2.7 metres (26' x 8'9" for those metrically challenged). The square hole in the end wall is for a low level extractor for getting rid of the resin smells that are heavier than air. The wall above the hole is where my homebuilt machine will be mounted and I had to stipulate solid, concrete blocks for the end wall to make sure it was solid enough to take the machine.

The roof should be on by the end of next week and I have to start thinking about getting everything out of the existing workshop and stored somewhere before it is ripped appart and kitted out.

More pics to follow.

Mike

Any more progress Mike ? Seems like you may have brought "the beast" home and don't have time to post, which is fair enough :D

I think we need some pics of some tools hanging on those new workshop walls at least so we know it isn't just collecting cobwebs :)

Russell.

Love you idea want to know where to get more info on carbon fibering mdf part, do you have any good diy tips or suggestion how to get started?


Hi Mike,

Love your work; it was a good read from start to finish. I have a suggestion for you that may help speed up the final part of your project. Why not wrap the MDF in carbon, remove part of the MDF and reinforce with metal or alloy inserts in the load areas that you can tap later? MDF is a good core material and would be very strong structurally when covered in carbon.

If you router the inside of the panels like a kitchen door (remove some of the meat from the panel) it would make a lighter and structurally stronger part once covered.
I know the finish won’t be the best, but it would do the job easily. It would save you time and give strength and rigidity.

I have used lots of different core materials extensively. You will find MDF is fine and quite up to the job. Using MDF as a sandwich core is cheap and the fact you already have it looking at you would make it a good proposition IMHO. Just a thought that’s all. Please don’t take my suggestion the wrong way; I know you are planing a composite arm for your project I don’t know if you had thought about reverse moulding?

RaceComp make lots of Autoclave cured carbon parts, from race parts to medical operating tables.

Here are a few pictures of some of our parts.

If you need any specs on load lay-up or pre-preg recommendation I would be happy to lend a hand. However I feel you already know your way around this field 

A basic out line for me would be 4x300g directional @ 90 deg with overlap at 150mm on all edges and 2 x 200g 2x2 for a finish layer. A clear two pack paint over the finished surface area for a better result if it’s the look your also after.

The arms in the picture are a one shot moulded item, 100% pre-preg carbon part and are hollow. Surgeons hang off these legs, literally. They will take over a ton in weight in the final layout of an operating theatre table leg attachment.

A damn good read mate!!!!

Steve Phillips
RaceComp

www.racecomp.com.au

Sorry guys, I've been away recently in Slovakia, playing with my toys in the European Championships and also in Slovenia for a World Cup event so I've not been looking in as often as usual.

No tools on the walls yet as progress on the workshop is fairly slow but you can see from the photos that the building work is finished, it's painted and units and worktops are being put together. You may also be able to make out part of my latest aquisition in the bottom right of 'Workshop 002' - it's the bed of a Syil converted Super X3 CNC, 4 axis mill. The rest of it is still in the garage, far too heavy to move to its final position without the assistance of a few others. This is a very nice machine but does require a little work to make it even better. Things like removing production swarf and lapping the ways makes a tremendous difference and worth the effort.

The reason for the purchase was to enable some serious metal machining on smaller parts and I think it will compliment my large router/mill very well. You will notice that my big machine is not yet mounted on the end wall as it is still in school and may be there for some time if pupils wish to use it. I'm also still waiting for the lathe and woodworking band saw to complete the shop.

Can't wait to get in there and start producing chips.

Mike

Eloid,

I doubt there is very much information about laminating carbon onto MDF but there is a guy in Greece who is doing just that. He has a thread on the zone at: http://www.cnczone.com/forums/showthread.php?t=28868 but has not been very active recently. It is probably well worth having a go as Steve says about MDF in your quoted passage, it's cheap and makes a good core material. Steve also gives an example of a good schedule, using 4 layers of 300g carbon on each side of your MDF. The thickness of the MDF will have a large effect on the stiffness of the finished laminate - the thicker the better. In fact, if you use something like 18mm MDF then you could probably get away with 3 layers each side. Steve mentions uni-directional material, which is the best if you are using pre-preg, but if you intend using hand layup techniques you will be better using woven cloth.

Just ask if you need some more advice.

Mike

Can't wait to get in there and start producing chips.

Mike

I should think so... that workshop is way too clean for my liking, you could have at least sprinkled some nails on the floor or something before taking the photo's :D

Russell.

Russell,

Don't worry, it's already looking a bit of a mess and I've not finished kitting it out yet! I am finding it very frustrating waiting for machines and bits and I cannot get stuck into anything long term before I hit a snag and have to order more goods. The latest is the ducting for the dust removal - I'm waiting for delivery of enough ducting to extract dust from three machines plus a spare vent for worktop use. The three machines are; my homemade router which is now mounted in its final resting place (photos to follow), my new syil CNC converted SX3 and a large woodworking bandsaw.

I am also still waiting for a large lathe to arrive and cannot finish putting up the workbenches till it arrives, otherwise I cannot get it into the workshop!

My deadline was the end of December but this is looking a little unlikely at the moment.

Still excited though :) :)

Mike

Just in case anyone had thought I had dropped off the edge of the planet :)

The business end of my workshop is now virtually finished with all machines now installed and working. Ducting is all but finished. Just waiting for some reducers so I can use 2.5" or 3" flexible hose on each of the outlets from the 4" ducting.

The worktop, still to be secured, under the CNC router is supported by three, 100mm x 50mm x 3mm steel box section beams, running right across the workshop from wall to wall. Each is adjustable so I can get the top absolutely square with the machine.

The lathe is a bit of a monster and took some moving. It weighs over 600kg, two thirds of a ton, and was delivered by one man and a hydraulic trolley. He struggled like mad trying to get it into my garage and almost took it away again, muttering under his breath that it was a two man job. Bottom line, he made it but it then sat there for a few days while I pondered on how to move this thing through the garage, up a 250mm step and along the workshop into its resting place. I enlisted the help of a friend and between us, a large crow bar and a number of round bars, we bit by bit persuaded it into place. One thing is for sure - IT AIN'T GOING ANY PLACE ELSE SOON.

The Syil SX3 is a nice machine and has been earning its keep too.

A couple of photos show the business end of the workshop and I am too embarassed to show the other end as it is still a tip and waiting to be finished.

All the best,

Mike

Rooms sure get a lot smaller when you start putting all your stuff in them, don't they? ;)

Mike

I've taken the time today to read thru your entire thread. You desirve the five star ratting. Two questions? I work at a Technical College on the other side of your pond, with my salary there is no way I could afford all of your "play toys"? Also how do you get the "boss" to let you out to play so much? I need to know your secrets?

All the best
Skip

Mike

Two questions? I work at a Technical College on the other side of your pond, with my salary there is no way I could afford all of your "play toys"? Also how do you get the "boss" to let you out to play so much? I need to know your secrets?

I think the answer to the second question is the more expensive one.:)

Great to see the progress in this very interesting project.

Skip,

Apologies for the delay in replying - now the machine is finished and in place, at home, I don't get to check into the 'Zone' as often as I should.

In answer to your first question - I am married to another teacher and we decided, before we got married, that neither of us wanted children and I am sure this has had a profound effect on disposable income!! I just hope that I am still capable of using the workshop in old age, or that the old peoples home has workshop facilities :)

Your second question is answered by the length of this thread that has spanned some three and a half years. I only ever got to work on it during my free time, of which there was not a great deal!

Overall, I am delighted with the machine so far though it has yet to be really tested with some large workpieces. Much of what has been done has been tiny in comparison to the size of the machine. Having said that, the accuracy on the small pieces is every bit as important, if not more so, as for the larger items and so far, it has exceeded my expectations.

Thanks for the comments.

Mike

Having read through the whole thread, you will appreciate that I am only half way there as the composite version has yet to be started. Should have a bit more time now I am semi-retired :)

Having read through the whole thread, you will appreciate that I am only half way there as the composite version has yet to be started. Should have a bit more time now I am semi-retired :)

So does this mean we have to wait for another three and a half years to see the composite version :D

Good to see you still visit once in a while :)

Cheers.

Russell.

So does this mean we have to wait for another three and a half years to see the composite version
At least!!! I know it sounds like the oldest cliche out but, once retired, you really don't have anywhere near as much time as you thought you would. Things have also taken a strange course. A chance meeting has resulted in me making parts for telescopes and getting involved in some animal robotics through a research post graduate at Cambridge University. The intention is to make a full size, fully flapping and functional pterasoar and I have been draughted in to work on the composite structures. Interesting or what!!!

Funny how things work out.

All the very best to everyone on the Zone,

Mike

PS Some day I really will get round to the composite version but right now, the current version is working just fine.