Hi All:

I was trying to figure out just what I have electronics wise so I ripped out the CPU board of my BP S1 and ... Hey, this looks like the old PDP-11 Bus. I see CPU DEC 3015D. Well it's DEC. I do a little internet search .... YES this is a PDP-11! Okay I can work this bus. Now, Do I need to back up the ROM as it's coming to 30 years old.

Okay I thought that the BOSS series of computers were 68000 based, since mine is a PDP-11 based machine does anyone know what series of BOSS I have? The machine serial # places it as being born in 1980. Carter era....:rainfro:

Andrew

Way back I retrofitted a couple of boring mills that were PDP-8 run.
Not bad for 1965 data processing units running a CNC machine.
Al.

PDP-8 ... I donno sounds kinda boring! :) Sorry could not resist. Seriously I see this machine running G code and servo-ing motors. No need for anything big. I can see small limits of the G code I can run on this thing. But I'll start small then start a re-engineered CPU board. First things first get this beast running.

The ultimate hack would be to mill the replacement pro-boards on the machine they are going into. Machine ... make thyself!

So given my limited computing machinery any ideas on what version of BOSS I'm running?

You can do a lot of damage with a PDP-8.

Andrew

The digital Equipment Company used a KD11F board in the BOSS 3 and 4.
A KD11L was used in the BOSS 5 and 6.
The actual BOSS level was determined by the ERS board which had the BOSS software burned onto a PROM.
Search the posts. I wrote up a lot longer history of these machines and what is inside of them.

George

I have an LSI-1, M7264 for the CPU Board. So what version of BOSS would this be?

Andrew

To answer my own question. I found this resource.

ftp://metalab.unc.edu/pub/academic/computer-science/history/pdp-11/hardware/field-guide.txt

The M7264 is a KD11-F Q 11/03 processor with 4-Kword MOS RAM

Sooo it looks like I have a BOSS 3 or 4. Okay making progress.

Andrew

... Another question. Does the BOSS 3 or 4 run g code? I have this vague recollection of reading that below BOSS 5 g code was not the lingua franca.

Andrew

ALL BOSS machines were strictly G code machines.

George

Excellent! I've found a lot of links to DEC PDP 11 stuff. The PDP-11 is the base computer system for the Bridgeport Series I. I've found a lot of general docs that would help in understanding the system, but is a tad esoteric. If you folks are interested I can put together a list of links.

I spent some time with the bridgeport boards and they are very simple 7400 logic circuits. I'll be reverse engineering these soon, so the mods can begin.

It would be great if you could figure out a way to increase the stock memory on these. I still use mine in the stock configuration and it would be nice to have more memory without using a BTR system. Good luck on your adventures.

Kevin

Hey Kevin:

I think the best we could do with the system as is would be a 64k of RAM upgrade. And we'd have to break into the code and reset the memory management limits. All can be done esp since there are pdp-11 emulators out there. I haven't figured out where the code is kept. I don't see any windowed EPROM's on board, so I figure that the code is kept on a perm ROM.

If I were to keep the pdp-architecture, I'd first have to read out the rom. Okay my logic analyzer can do that. Then disassemble the code. Okay we can do that too. Now for hardware.....

At first glance at the problem, I'd take the pdp-11 on a chip projects out there, where you get the pdp-11 system of your choice on a FPGA. 1 this would allow the system to grow as needed and you could run at speeds undreamed of in the 1970's. 2 if the memory paging is not too awful, you could easily expand the memory capability into the 16MB range very easily. Then mount that on a PCB that meets the mechanical needs of the BUS.

That would be fun and cool, but it would mean modding DEC assembly using archaec tools.

My eventual mod would be to use something like the TS-7300, 32 bit controller with FPGA, full 100 base T, as many rs-232's as grandpa ever needed and 100's of MB of RAM. Or, just a TCP/IP interface and run the show from a PC (Yeah! THAT'S THE TICKET!). First off, tho, I need to get my beastie up and running and I'll spoon feed it.

As for me, I'm just not going to sleep well at night until I encode this beastie and calibrate it. I'm a controls and accuracy weenie.

Okay, I'll setup up a web page with the project this weekend. I spent some time exploring the boards. I need to find out if I'll be violating the DMCA if I published schemos of the boards and write ups on the functionality.

Andrew

Andrew,
Looking forward to your website on the project. I think stock these old machines had about 12K of memory which way back was probably plenty for what needed to be done with all the subroutines and such. Seems like most of the stuff I do always ends up being 3-D and takes huge amounts of memory. A sample:

YouTube - Bridgeport Series 1 BOSS 5 CNC 3D Test (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nFsGslF0qGA)

I have an old BTR system that I've used a couple times but even that seems to be limited to about 80K a program for some reason.

YouTube - Bridgeport BOSS 5 DNC Engraving (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xZ0d2m69T9I)

That's plenty for most things but I'm used to being able to download almost unlimited files on the machines I use at work. I'm a CNC programmer-machinist not an EE so I understand some of what you were saying. I know just enough to be dangerous with electronics and computers.:eek:

Kevin

Kevin:

Great vids. I'll be asking for a lot of advise from you. I'm an amateur machinist. I know just enough to be dangerous. :)

Andrew

Read section 4 of the manual tonight. WOW the quality of the manual is really impressive. You could reverse engineer the entire controls system from this document. What a refreshing read.

Andrew

Hey All:

Looking at my ERS board I find this part number. 026289-b. It's not listed on table 4.2.5.2 of the manual. Which makes me think that I have a BOSS 3 or less. Anyone have any direct insight as to what I really have here?

Also are there any binaries of the various versions of BOSS floating about?

Andrew

Andrew,
I have the books for the BOSS 4 and 5 and all the numbers for all the boards start with 1 and have 7 digits so look on the board, I'm sure there are other numbers on there, maybe on the other side? The number you listed is similar to numbers also printed on the back of the board I have for my BTR unit and that is 026289A. The part number on the same board on the front is A027106. I'm not sure what that board was originally but it definitely wasn't BOSS 4 or 5, maybe BOSS 3? I don't know. The BOSS 5 board I have is part number 1927990. The BOSS 3 from what I see has a different display panel. It just has a single LED readout about 3 inches or so long with a lot of empty space around it. The BOSS 4, 5 and 6 have a dual LED display and really no empty space around it. I hope that helps you identify it.

Kevin

Ah, I too have a 1927990 between K9 and K10. Wiping the grime away it even says, Part Number before that, and SN after it. I could not see the Part Numer, and only saw the SN marker.

From what I have in the manual that is the number for the latest BOSS 5 board so the LSI-11 board should be 1927322, the RCK should be 1926865 and the XDI should be 1926974. I did change mine from BOSS 4 to 5 but the only different boards were the ERS and LSI-11. Did you have any luck getting it going yet?

Kevin

Most BOSS 3 machines had some wire wrap boards in them.
You are correct that the original part numbers began with a A0. Later that was replaced with a 19 and even later with a 319xxxxx.
The BOSS 3 were strictly 20ma current loop communications.
Boss 4 had a pile of part numbers as RS232 was a option, as well as metric.
On the BOSS 5 RS232 was standard.
I have a list of these part numbers on a hard drive not in my PC at the moment. I have had a few problems. I am running 1GB of video graphics on 2 boards running in a "crossfire" arrangement and one fried. So my PC is in a state of flux.

George

Okay:

Here's my system board part numbers ...

LSI-11 M7264 5011545F-P5 Dated Feb '81
XDI BridgePort # 026974
ERS BridgePort # 1927990
RCK BridgePort # 1926865

Keven, I have not gotten it running yet. I'm cleaning it, and finishing my rotary phase. Which from earlier posts indicate that I have to be careful to balance my legs..... Probably another week or two.

Okay so it's looking like a BOSS5 with the LSI-11 still being an unknown and the data interface looks old compared to the Clock and ROM board. So long as it has rs-232...... There most def are no wire-wrap boards on this thing. I don't know if I'm sad or happy that there are no wire-wrap boards.....

Hey guys, thanks for all the help and insights. I'll be putting up a blog later today. I'll post the url.

Andrew

Update:

De-grimed the LS-11 board, and in faded ink there is 1927322. Same as yours.
So assuming this system was totally working should be okay, and a full BOSS 5.

Andrew

Andrew,
Looks like the same setup as mine. Is it the rigid ram or the Vram? (adjustable head, like standard Bridgeport). I've never even seen a wire wrap board except in the service manuals. Looks interesting. I like this old stuff. This is just like the machines I learned on way back when they were new. Where I work now I work on the newest stuff. I run a 5 axis Hermle but it's fun to use the old machines without screens and just flashing LEDs. I've already done 3D parts on mine we never could of even programmed back then, typing programs on a Teletype 33 and punching out a tape to load in the machine and then if you had to edit, plug in the CRT editor and modify the program. Somewhere around here I have a picture of our 3 original Bridgeports when they were pretty much new. If I can find it I'll post it.

Kevin

Hi Kevin:

It's the rigid head. The ways still have their scraping marks and the worst I've seen is the grime on the electronics from the fan blowing oil laden air.

Kevin your experience base sounds really cool! I was 11 years old when my machine was born and started programming computers the next year. Amazingly my Commodore 64 could have controlled these things no problem. Coming in from the computer end of things these PDP-11 16 bit systems are a real joy. With a 16 bit system things are simple enough for a person to take the entire control system in. These new fangled machines today are so complex and operate on 3rd and 4th level computer science theorems that it's hard for me to keep track of what's going on. It was a golden age you got your background in. The manual for the BOSS 4 that I have is so complete that you could redesign the entire system from scratch and still have it work.

Say, in my research at the library I've come across mentions that these machines were export controlled to the Eastern Bloc. Do you have any recollection or experience with importing these machines to Thachers' UK? Or stories of illegal shipments to the Warsaw Pact?

Andrew

Hey All:

I started my Bridgeport Series I diary/blog ... It's rough and will be tended daily. Please feel free to point out errors. I used a blog service to save the time of doing my own page from scratch.

http://machinetoolism.blogspot.com/

Andrew

Andrew,
I checked out your blog on the machine. Looked nice and looking forward to updates. Anyway, I was about 17 when I started working on these. I really liked them but about 1982 or so we had to start upgrading to machining centers with little features like toolchangers, closed loop systems, servo motors, bubble memories in the control and a little better accuracy. The old Bridgeports did the job though and they were easy to run. I have no idea about the exporting of them but I know the later Bridgeport VMCs were made in England because we ended up with quite a few of them later on.

Kevin

Holy Frejoles!

I finally got my rotary phase to work! Man what a battle to steal time for the project. I'm not even married! How do you guys do it?

:cheers:

Andrew

....Ummmm that means I have to turn this thing on now! Geezh, I have to post on all the cool things I've learned about the system. Now that I know how old these boards are and how you cannot get spares, I'm afraid to turn it on again. I should have it up Wed night. Only 1 week later than I thought it'd be.

Andrew

Yeah Andrew, get that thing going! We're waiting. Being a machinist / programmer and having a million other non machining projects going on I look forward to actually doing something and working on my own machine. I've bought many spare parts over the years because you're right, when something goes wrong or fries you're out of luck.

Kevin

Hey All:

So I'm working on backwards engineering the Series 1 system as is. I'm working on the EPS board right now. I'm having trouble tracking down two data sheets so far. I need these two really bad.

Harris M1-7643-5 :

I think this is a RAM for storing programs. I know of a stash of old Harris manuals at work ... I may have to hunt those down.
Intersil IM64021PL :

I think this is both a UART and a ROM for the BOSS 5 program. I think there are two IC 40 and IC 41. The stamp on IC 41 is faded with age. Two UARTS, one for RS-232 and one for the Tape Drive? Then high word, and low word for the BOSS 5 program data?

Either way I really eventually need those data sheets.

Also. Last night I cleaned out the electronics box. It was in pretty good shape. Some oily grime blown up by the fan. I also inspected the power lines and air input. Does anyone know what PSI air service this thing takes? I'm sure it's written somewhere I have not focused on air when I RTFM. So I'm being lazy asking you guys. I have a thermo class to take online tonight, so Friday night or Sat will be the powerup.

I'll keep you all posted. Thanks for all the help so far.

Andrew

Oh My goodness. What a nightmare. the HM1-7643-5 is part of the EPROM that holds the BOSS 5 program. I could not find a datasheet, but I found this listing.
These chips have 1k X 1nibble of each part of a statement in the BOSS 5 program. This is a 16 bit system so I'm thinking that 4 of these chips would have 1k worth of program. Reading this out to copy the program will be a nightmare. And if you lose just one chip, out of what looks like ~32 or so, you lose the entire system. Phew!

Tech.:TTLNumber of Words:1k
Bits Per Word:4
Maximum Access Time (S):60n
Output Config:3-
StateNumber of Chip Selects:2Program Voltage (V):14Nom.
Supp (V):5.0Maximum
Operating Temp (øC):70
Package Style:DIPMounting Style:T# Pins:18TypicalÁ

So I guess that also means that the Intersil part is only a UART. Okay, that makes more sense.

Andrew

Hey All:

Yup. The ROM bank is 9k x16 bit. So that's how my grandpa did read only memories. :rainfro:

It brings back memories of the old rope ROM's used in the Apollo Project. This system is not too far removed from magnetic core memory. I'm going to start on reverse engineering the address data and chip enable system tomorrow. Only 9k of code, that's not too bad .... Does anybody know how many 16 bit words or how many 8 bit byes the BOSS 5 binary is?

Okay this thing is going to be powered up tomorrow morning. Probably by noon AZ time, 7PM for those who live in UTC. The first test will be to power up, look for error codes, and jog each axis.

Then I have to get the serial interface going, which I'm about to start working on now.

Andrew

Hey All:

Man, ain't nuthin' like spending hours going over poor quailty schemos trying to decide ... is that a 2 or a 7? A 5 or a 6? So anyway, I think I've beeped out the serial connections. I THINK this is reflects objective reality. The POV of this schematic is as viewing the CPC connector from the front of the panel it is mounted to.

http://www.cnczone.com/gallery/showphoto.php?photo=5236&cat=500

Should be a picture right above here.

I tried to paste a pic. I don't know if it will work. But the short of it is I think machine Tx is pin 6 (lower left socket on CPC as viewed from the front.) Gnd is pin 7 (lower middle socket on CPC) and Rx is pin 8 (lower right socket on CPC).

Rx and Tx defined from the machine (The Mill) POV. I can't prove to myself that the CPC socket numbers are from the front and not the rear. The catalog PDF does not explicitly say which is which. Can anybody verify this or let me know if I made a mistake?

Andrew

Well:

I tried to fire it up and of course it does not work.

On power up the reset goes forward and just as the manual says, it takes 5 sec to sequence thru a reset. After power up, the numeric display reads all zeros. The 'N',F','S', and 'T' are all illuminated with zeros in the numeric field, the 'X' axis is shown to be enabled. 'ABS' is illuminated and no other lamps. I see no indication of change of axis when I select a new axis

I think I see the problem. Here are the voltages off the power supply.

-12 VR -16.3
-12R -12.0
+12VR 26.5
+12R 12.1
+12 GND 0.0
+5VR 14.3
+5R 4.9
GND +5 0.0
GND REF

The reset toggle works. It seems to sequence thru a reset and end in the same state described above.

Time to read more manuals. Anyone have any insights?

Andrew

Some corrections.

-12 UR (unregulated) was 16.3 and just below the 20 to 28V range called for. All the other voltages are within spec.

Sigh.
Andrew

I Have a working Boss3 with a black box to com the thing to RS232 and a Hypertherm file with the setting's If that would help And I have an aquantince with a hole pile of extra Boss board's and cab left from retro project's Let me know If I cac Help Kevin

I'm going to regroup and test a few more things this week. I'm also going to start looking at the digital interface to the stepper motor amp boards. I'm starting to think that with concerted effort, I may have this thing retrofitted within a month or two instead of trying to get the orig electronics to work. Since the machine runs open look and only counts steps the digital controls for that are very strait forward. I think I'll use the TS-7300 as the base computer to run the show and the just use tcp/ip to move data, and a PC as the front end.

I'm going to hook up the rs-232 tomorrow to check and see if the computer is running and the problem is with the XDI board. Well at least I'll get to hook the logic analyzer to some electronics from the same era.

Andrew

Oh, forgot to answer your points Kevin. Wow, BOSS III that's really cool! And still working! I have the manual for the ROM and interface board (ERS) I'm pretty sure I know what baud I have it set for. But once I hook up the logic analyzer (I like to call it the "Fist of Objective Truth".), then I can really see what is going on.

I really don't want to spend too much time re-breathing life back into this old crate. I'd rather turn it into a museum piece that I dabble with every once and a while.

Andrew