Hi, I'm new to the forum and I desperately need some advice.
I am mechanical Engineering student and I need a CNC machine for hobby/school related prototyping. I have a few ideas I would love to try to develope but the one I plan on working on first may require precision that I cant afford. I have to fabricate thin hexagon shaped aluminum pieces with beveled edges that repeat in a pattern. I need the small gaps inbetween the pieces to apear paralell to the naked eye, the pieces are about 4.5 cm wide by 3 cm tall. They will be arranged in a honeycomb pattern and be attached to a panel with clips that ill also need to fabricate.

The three mills im considering are:
-Sherline 54xx cnc ready ~$1000 shipped
-Taig CNC ready ~$1000 not sure about shipping
-X2 with CNCfusion ballscrew/motor mount kit ~$600+$600=$1200
(i know Tools Now has this machine for 399.99 but shipping is 200!)

Can i get the accuracy i need out of any of these machines?

How will the precision of the X2 with ballscrews compare to the taig and sherline?

Are their any angle cutters available for the (1/4" chuck) taig and sherline? or will i have to bother with tilting the head
(tilting table wont cut it, custom angle cutters, maybe?)

The x2 has obvious advantages over the other 2 (rigidity, taper, steel capacity, etc.) but these are slightly beat out by my need for precision

If other measures can be taken to make the x2 more accurate what are the and how much will they cost? I like the x2 but if the taig or sherline are significantly more precise then ill have to go with them

As far as budget i am planning on spending about 300 on steppers, drivers, etc and i dont really want to spend any more

Any information would be grealty appreciated

I would contact each of the manufactures directly and ask them specifically in writing what you have posted here.
You have answered the question for yourself, but your budget is a bit on the low side.
Always a compromise between precision and what your willing to pay to get it.
The machine with ballscrews is going to win.
Unless you can set up backlash compensation real tight and the computer can effectively take it out. But then your going to keep measuring that, you can't just set it and forget it.
E-mail your requirements to each manufacture and post here your response.

Most people will probably recommend the taig as it is a good machine right out of the box. The sherline is also a good machine, but not as rigid as the taig. The X2 has a long way to go before it has any form of accuracy, but it doesn't cost that much money. It just takes a lot of time to get there. First you should get the belt drive kit for it. Then you should clean up the ways by either scraping or lapping them. For this you should have access to a plane surface (granite plane or something similar), and some marking blue along with a scraper or some fine grit sanding paper. It takes a lot of time and skill to do the scraping. Lapping the ways is easier, but you wont get the same "quality" finnish as you get by scraping, but it works wonders. As long as you get nice plane surfaces and remove all the high spots so that you can tighten in the gibs to reduce slop and avoid binding.

I don't know how much backlash there is on a taig, but with the right ball screws on the X2, you can get pretty close to 0 backlash. One drawback with the X2 is the low spindle speed, so it is not the best machine for engraving or detailed milling (small tools). You can add a high speed spindle to the mill on the side of its head, but that will cost some.

Maybe someone with some Taig experience can give some more information on it? Same goes for the Sherline.

At only 300 or so fo the motors and drivers, you are talking fairly small. Smaller motors will certainly drive the ball screws better.
I was not too happy with my stock X2, but the main thing was the backlash in the screws. The machine is plenty strong to do some nice milling and you can use standard end mills and insert cutters, which BTW may be the best way to do your bevels if they are really an oddball angle.

Thanks alot Blight for your info! I have read alot and heard of the
"TLC" siegs need but have not found a good summarization of what needs to be done other than yours. Is there a site or very indepth post about all the things that can be done to increase the x2s accuracy? I am working at a company with full machining capabilities and maybe (and i do mean maybe, coperations!) I can get someone to scrape my ways. If not, should a regular machine shop be able to do this for me? As for moter/electronics probotics has a 260oz kit that is on sale for 290. Any opinions on this kit?

I have read up on some gecko drives with microstepping capabilities...
Would this be like putting a sniper scope on a snub nose revolver?

My bevels will all be a neat 45 degrees and this is not even a critical dimension, so if i did go taig/sherline i would only need a 45 degree cutter, however it still seems like i would have to get it custom made b/c i cant find any with 1/4" shanks... could i put a larger chuck on the taig or sherline?

I described what i was making before and the kind of accuracy i want, but i want a mill so bad and have so many other ideas that its not really a question of if i can make it but a question of which machine would be better.

Ahh, then a simple mill drill would likely work on any choice you make for the bevels.
http://www.mcmaster.com/param/images/Endmills/8905a16.gif

I use one of these all the time for engraving, side milling, hole drilling and spotting. It can be used to campher and countersink as well as bevel edges. The one I use is 90 degrees, but I am pretty sure I have seen these with different angles on them.

Another choice might be a small carbide countersink bit for the bevels.

There are a lot of things that can be done to an X2 to increase it's size, strength and accuracy. Some will take some time and others go quickly. Just about anything you do makes it a better mill than what you get stock, however a stock mill is capable of doing some machining too, once the initial adjustments are made.
The Taig and Sherline have limitations as well, but a lot of guys use them to produce some very nice stuff. I think size is the main issue with those.

I would just count on the X2 as being able to become more than what you bought initially.

I don't think Gecko's are overkill at all. They do a great job and treat your equipment right. They eliminate some issues that other drivers don't.

Motor heating, resonance, over voltage protection etc.
The newer smaller gecko's should really fit a notch that wasn't covered by them before except by larger more expensive drives.

I don't think the geckos are overkill either. You can get some drivers with 64 micro stepping. That is more like overkill. With microstepping set to 10, I get a resolution of 0.002mm per step. I have had a dial on the table to measure how accurate the steps are, and I have minimized backlash to less then 0.002 on the X, and 0.01 on Y. I don't know how much it is on the Z axis because of how much the head weights. When I get a counter weight I will have to check it out as well.

I'm also using that type of mill drill as well. Works great for chamfering and removing sharp edges.

I don't know about any in depth instructions on how to optimize this machine. I just took it apart and started looking for weak spots.

Scraping is a costy procedure, and it is not something most people do. Kind of a lost art actually. You can do some reading on scraping, and I saw a couple videos of it being done on a machine on youtube.

have you considered buying the x2 from harborfeight(no shipping), making your own mounts and paying someone like hoss to grind your ballscrews for you?


http://www.xylotex.com/3AxSysKit.htm

Not sure on experience, but thats very cheap for what it is. 24vdc seems very little for steppers though :/

I would say win/win from taig and x2. i have really seen some nice results from the taig. same with x2.

regards

When it comes to mods on the X2, I think the discussion that likened it to 'yak shaving' was pretty spot on. As an inexpensive way to get a pretty decent machine when you otherwise couldn't afford one at all its fine. To get one with the intended purpose of converting to precision work is pure folly. If you need a precision machine, just get one, rent time on one, or farm out the work to someone who has one.
This is doubly true if you are planning on sending out much of any of the work to be done. Buying an X2 then having things like a machine shop scrape the ways to get them straight is going to cost more than initially just buying a decent machine in the first place. A conversion like this can sometimes save people money, even then sometimes only marginally, and it necessarily involves the converter doing most all their own work and ignoring their own substantial input of time. Farm much out and you are already upside down. At that point buying one from Syil already converted would be far cheaper.
There are a lot of valid reasons for people converting these things, but just as many times it isn't at all suited to the purpose at hand, and this sounds like one of them. I'm sure I'll get slammed for that statement from the one or two people whose religion states converting X2's is superior above all other options at everything no matter what, but this really doesn't sound like the mill you need to be getting into for what you want to do.

thanks to everyone for their info/opinions

as for stepper monkey, i believe your ideas have merit but don't quite apply to me, and heres why: i'ld like my parts to be accurate but right now my standards for a mill are much more flexible than my budget, buying a cheap mill now and improving it along the way does have one huge advantage; i get it now. Even if it cant produce the accuracy i need for a single part then i have a plethora of other idea to put it to work on. Your train of though doesn't allow for 2 main things; first, limited budgets and second, the desire to go through the process and gain the resulting knowledge/ experience/ bragging rights (okay, that might be 2-3 reasons). Also, when developing an idea it in invaluable to be able to make something, decide you don't like it then modify/ remake it again. It is possible i may get my machine, try to make my part, realize i cant make it accurate enough and decide to have someone else make it, but in the end ill still need a mill, so this rules out not buying one.

Im not trying to down your opinion in any way and it would be very applicable to some people

I would build my own mill from scratch.. if only i have a mill to make the parts on!!! funny how that works out huh? i actually plan on doing that soon just to see what kind of performance i can get from a homebuilt rig. i would buy precisioned sliding components and borrow the head assembly from my purchased mill.... i considered doing this to begin with, but by the time i "farmed" out the work i need done i could just buy a $1000 mill hand have alot of extra components...

as far as the decision goes i have reached this point: i would be happier with the taig but is it worth the $344 price difference and less power/rigidity? (found out i can get the taig on ebay cnc ready for ($944)

Anything to help push me off the fence?

Do they sell syil x2 mills at any ebay stores? If so under what name and how much?

whats the largest shank diameter of a tool you can use on a taig (im assuming the taper is mt1 and based on the sherline it seems like the largest tool is can handle is 1/4")? can it be increased? would it be a matter of changing the spindle, the chuck, or something else? i ask because a 90 degree mill drill at 1/4" doesn't cut quite as much as i'ld like it to and it would be alot easier if i could make my cut with one pass and it seems like tool wear issues would also be much less...

If you have interim projects that don't require the accuracy right away, and can afford to build one up slowly and still get use of it in the meantime at a lesser capacity, then I would have to agree with you in that a conversion might be a good option for you. If you needed it for the precision right away it would have been a disaster though!


I would be a more of a fan of your idea of building a new mill using the first machine than just 'yak shaving' the first one forever. That is what I did on my first modded machine, a Taig, as after a few mods I realized that after a point going any further would take more work than simply using it as it was to build an entirely new machine. So thats what I did. Especially with semiconductor-grade precision stages and parts out there cheap on Ebay, it was cheaper and a far better and more accurate machine by building one than any mods to any basic mill could have ever achieved.

As for the Taigs tooling capacity, it actually uses standard ER16 collets, not the morse taper of the Sherline. The standard Taig collet set holds up to 3/8" shank tools, and the optional endmill holder (about $15 extra) allows for 1/2" mills, but 3/8" is the usually practical limit for hard materials without a stronger spindle motor.

My personal favorite of the two is the Taig. The Taig sort of is what it is. It is accurate, capable, and reliable right out of the box, but doesn't have a lot of room for improvement in other than minor ways. In other words, it has good potential, and is delivered meeting most of that potential already.
If you are going to mod the hell out of a mill, the X2 has more that can be done to it and eventually taken a lot farther than a Taig can, the downside being that a lot more needs to be done to it just to get it up to snuff. In other words, it has more theoretical potential, but is delivered showing almost none of it.

If you want a mill you can use now, and then also to use to build another mill with, get the Taig hands down. If you want to get a mill purely to mod it into something itself, the X2 has more room for that. Honestly though, if you are going that route and have the space you should look at an X3 at that point instead, as it is way more machine for not much more money - the expense of a conversion is in the motors, and electronics, ballscrews, etc., which are going to be similar costs in either case. This makes the initial difference in cost of the base mills absolutely trivial after the conversion is done. X3 is likely cheaper anyway, as you will then save a great deal of money and time that would have been spent during an X2 conversion simply trying to get it to do what the X3 does standard anyway (Z stiffness, extra travel, etc.). I am convinced there is more money and time in most X2 conversions than in X3 ones at the end of the day, for less return.
I'd either be for the Taig and the idea of an eventual new machine build project, or a simple X3 conversion that is good all by itself. I see little point in the X2 when given these other two options, even with a severe budget.
I know X2 conversions are discussed a lot on here, and so seem quite popular. You don't see that with the other two mills - you really don't see modding threads on them that often. At first blush you might think it means they aren't as popular, but there are actually very large numbers of people with Taig's and X3's on here, they seem to be more the standard even. You will notice, however, the discrepancy is easily explained on closer inspection - the discussions by those mills owners are overwhelmingly focused on the actual items they are making with their mill, as owners of those two are generally happy and productive with them after the initial setup and tweaking. It seems the primary focus of discussion of X2 owners IS getting them working better. Do you want to make projects with a mill, or have a mill as a project? That is the decision you need to make before any other.

The only reason you should even think about the X2 conversion is if you don't have a schedule. A new X2 with a belt drive kit and CNCFusion kit is pushing $1400. If the Taig will do what you need, I'd buy that, and you will always be able to resell it on eBay for a large part of the original purchase price. Or better yet try to get your school to buy it :)

Mind you I am waist-deep in X2 yak hair at the moment, not regretting it, but I don't actually need it to be working anytime soon. I went the mixed DIY route as I am fabricating most of the parts myself but I did pay a guy with a larger lathe to turn my ball screws which cost all of $80 including transit, so even with that I am saving a few hundred versus the CNCFusion kit, which I only hear good things about. I think a cleaned-up X2 CNC mill is incredible bang-for-buck, but you pay for it in yak shaving instead of cash.

Anything to help push me off the fence?

Nope. :) I have an X2 but still lust after the other machines mentioned. Especially the Taig and X3. Everything has a compromise factor. Would be happier if the X2 had a wider table and more Y travel. A lot of iron for the money otherwise. Converting to cnc cost more than I expected as I had to farm out some of the work.


Do they sell syil x2 mills at any ebay stores? If so under what name and how much?

http://cgi.ebay.com/Bench-Top-CNC-Mini-mill-X2-Rapid-Prototype-in-House_W0QQitemZ170216101204QQihZ007QQcategoryZ12584QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem

It comes packaged a few different ways. This one has a belt drive and no software. Haven't spotted these on ebay recently. Maybe Syil America was sitting on a surplus of X2's at that time.

Edit/ Looks like they are still found on ebay but not open for bidding. Price is up also.

stepper, thx for the great info
do you still find a need for you taig now that you have a new mill?

i have pretty puch decided on the taig and am going to go with 2018CR-ER off ebay, i should have it ordered after lunch

as far as electronics i really like the gecko vampires (G203V)... but they would blow my budget... i think maybe i can get 3 dual shaft motors and set my x and y with steppers and run my z manual for a while.. or maybe rig my z up so that i can turn it without a stepper temporarily... what i want to work on initially would require not 3 axis simultanious movement.... will this work? any opinions on this?

thanks to everybody for their advice and info!!

Something to consider: If the 2019 is available for only a bit more, that would get you an extra 2 !/2 inches of X travel....

Forget the Geckos. Nothing wrong with them but severe overkill here. Cheapest option would be a DIY HobbyCNC board which is under $100 for the 3-axis model and only requires an hour or so to assemble assuming you don't fear a spot of soldering. More than enough capacity to run a Taig well.

If you deathly fear soldering then the Keling 4030 drives for ~$55 each are an option that has worked well for many. You will get far more utility out of any 3-axis setup than any 2-axis setup no matter what drivers you use. In my admittedly limited experience the only things the higher-end drivers get you on these small machines are bragging rights and rapids faster than you should or need to go anyway--with one caveat that Geckos have earned a reputation as being very idiot-proof in terms of wiring.

$900+90.49 S&H off of Ebay, seems you can get one from a dealer for less shipping, depending on where you are.

And no one has anything good to say about a Sherline? Did I totally go with the wrong manufacturer here? I gots to know your opinions on this. Thanks!!

Sherlines are nicely built little machines, they are just designed to fit at the very lightest end of the scale. I know a reasonable number of people who really enjoy them for miniature and model building, art, watch and jewelry work, and similar small, fine detail jobs. Nothing wrong with them at all. They just aren't big or sturdy enough for most jobs folks want to do on here, as they generally want to cut larger, with lower detail, and mainly in metals like steel that the Sherline just isn't heavy enough for.

Thank you for the reply. My applications are pretty light duty...I have larger machines available at work for the harder materials and larger pieces.
My main uses are two-fold...personally, for building/tuning/racing H.O. Slot Cars; and at work for building small heads for fiber optic connector cleaning devices.

SG

I read through part of this discussion and I am one of those that bought the X2 and then used it to convert to CNC. As stated in one of the messages, this is a large investment in time and the results are not very satisfactory. The precision of the X2 is just not there to take advantage of CNC.

After only 9 months with the X2, I purchased an X3 and the CNC Fusion Deluxe Kit. So far, I am very happy with the results. Not a fantastic precision machine but the cut are consistent and I don't have to adjust the head after every cut. The cutter stays where I put it and performs.

I will say that the work on the X2 was not a total loss. I was able to reuse some of the stepper motors, drivers, and all of the tooling as I went with an R8 spindle for both. I found out that unless you are already a good machinist and have access to good equipment, doing it yourself is a trail and will result in a less than ideal machine.

Do what you will, but I spent over $1000 to "play" with the X2 and it is now in pieces. I spent $2000 for the X3 and have a nice machine with rotary table and ability to do actual work.

I have manual and CNC Sherlines. All my parts are brass and aluminum.

Looking back, Taig may have been the better choice. Just a lot more solid (More steel/iron, weight, 1/2-20 screws). The only things the Sherlines have over the Taigs is the variable speed motor control and a larger (though more expensive) selection of accesories.

The Sherlines are nice machines, just very light duty. From what I hear, the Taigs wear better and are more suited to semi-production type work.

I really wish Sherline would offer a sturdier machine. At least in CNC form. But as long as the current stuff sells, I doubt things will change.

Serge

After only 9 months with the X2, I purchased an X3 and the CNC Fusion Deluxe Kit. So far, I am very happy with the results. Not a fantastic precision machine but the cut are consistent and I don't have to adjust the head after every cut. The cutter stays where I put it and performs.

Why do you think the new machine works better? Is the X3 better-made than the X2? Is the added mass critical in getting to the precision you wanted to achieve? Is the CNCFusion conversion kit significantly better than the conversion you used on the X2?

It would also be interesting to hear a little more about your work and the places where the X2 failed you to help others see if your experience is relevant to them.

I can say that the X2 needs a column brace right out of the box. The ways at least need lapping. The screws could make good use of Delrin nuts instead of what came on them.
This being said, if you don't push the thing by cutting more than needed in steel, it can perform pretty well. That is in manual mode. I never did cnc mine and it also is sitting here in parts.
The table is getting ready to sit on my largest drill press. Motor and control will get ebayed as will the column. I'm keeping the extra spindle head as a spare for my mill. I will order some nice bearings for it just in case mine ever goes down. Running @ 6600 rpm now with stock bearings and the casting hardly gets above 90 degrees F, so I think these bearings are in there just right.
;)

Why do you think the new machine works better? Is the X3 better-made than the X2? Is the added mass critical in getting to the precision you wanted to achieve? Is the CNCFusion conversion kit significantly better than the conversion you used on the X2?

It would also be interesting to hear a little more about your work and the places where the X2 failed you to help others see if your experience is relevant to them.

There are a number of reasons I upgraded to an X3. The most important was that the X2 just would not keep its settings during a job. The column would drift to one side or the other, the vertical axis would not always return to the same point, the table was not parallel and no way to really adjust it, and a few other issues. It was just not designed to do the kind of work I wanted. It is too "sloppy" in fit and finish to do the precision I wanted and too lightly built to handle the materials I needed to cut.

The bottom line, the X2 is a "toy" that is good to do light projects that don't require precision. The idea of having the column tilt sounds good until you find that it makes it a weak point in stability.

As my X2 was a DIY project in regards to the CNC, there were a number of things that were wrong. Even still, I don't feel that the X2 is really a good candidate for CNC and the precision that CNC can bring to the machine. At only 100 lbs, it was not able to do very heavy cutting jobs on much more than aluminium. Steel was pretty much out of the question as was doing threading and other kinds of precision work.

The X3 is over 300 lbs, has a much stronger column and just lends itself to heavier jobs. It is still not a great machine for high precision but with the CNC Fusion kit, it does pretty well. The fact that the deluxe kit has ball screws and ball nuts, and is already designed to fit, it was a far better solution for me than buying a turn-key CNC machine and I already had much of the necessary hardware to complete it. Even if you do an X3 from scratch, you can get the X3 for about $850, the CNC Deluxe Kit for $1000, and motors, drivers, software for about $400 (depending on choice). The installation of the CNC Fusion kit was a breeze and works very well. I would never pay an additional $1500-$2500 to some manufacturer for the same machine and their CNC add-ons. With so many options out there, it was a lot cheaper and more fun to find and build up my own parts. Even at this price, I get 60ipm rapids and the calibrations stay put for more than a few cuts.

From what I found recently, the X3 is a discontinued machine from Syil. If you go to Grizzly or Harbor Freight, I think you can still get them. The Super X3 would be a good choice but it costs several hundred dollars more than the base X3. As I have motor control built into my CNC configuration and can add a spindle tach if needed, The Super X3 did not warrant the extra bucks. From what I can determine, the main features of the Super X3 are an enclosed motor, digital tach, tapping feature, and a couple of other things.

As my main interests are gears, threading, and building mounts for motors and generators, having the extra features of the Super X3 were not needed. For about $2300, I was able to have a pretty complete CNC mill that is both capable and reliable enough for most of my projects. I'm sure that at some point it will prove to be too small and not provide enough precision, at which point I will upgrade again.

Please understand that some of the choices in wording are my own and reflect my feelings about the suitability of the X2 to my needs. If I had the means to set up a mill where it really should be (not in my basement workshop) I would go with an Tormach or IH bed mill. As they are over 1000 lbs, getting them tore down to a point where they could be moved to a basement was not practical. If I had a workshop in back of the house or in the garage, I would not have hesitated to buy a much bigger machine. The X3 was one I could move and still have reasonable performance.