So, the whole xylotex system didn't work out too well with my system. I bought a 3-axis system and once we narrowed it down too that being the problem, a 4 axis system was sent too me. Nothing really changed. I used both my c11 and direct xylotex too Pc connection, was using the xylotex numbers that were suggested by EMC2. A new computer was bought that was hitting 15,800 latency.

I don't have the time too tweak things for a few weeks, I need too be up and running in a few days of a new system if I do get something. I have work that comes in and needs too be milled and for personal use, I would love too use the TAIG ALOT more!

I never really figured out what was up with the xylotex system and why it didn't work too well. I even made a resonance damper and nothing helped.






MY goal is too reach rapids on my taig in the 20's-40's. There is no reason why my taig milling machine cannot do such things. Even if it could rapid at 20 IPm, i would be happy. With my current system, the one that cuts and I have been using for about 7 + months... has a max speed of 6 IPM! I rapid at 6!



One thing I did maybe come too realize, if i'm going too spend some money now on some drivers, I want too get some drivers that are not just "ok" but are not the top of the line.

I want too have something with at least 48 volt Powersupply, even if that is overkill, I would rather have more then less.


I have been looking at Keling products, there prices are so nice. Or at least I think they are. People have mentioned the Keling KL-4030, but they can only handle up too 40 VDC and I know that I want too put more volts into these steppers. The Kl-6050 is more of what I'm looking at, but it only has 1/8th and 1/2 stepping, I don't know how this would work and if I needed different stepping, but I feel 1/8th is the best too use for greatest accuracy.


Hopefully I can get some help from you guys and see what you all think.


Mind you, I have the c-11 board already. I would also like too build an electrical enclosure, Keling actually sells and really nice set-up for like 570.00 but I don't need the BOB that comes with it and don't really justify paying the extra hundred few dollars for a box and fan and switches. It only comes with the 48 volt PS too....


Please help.



-Jason

Jason,

The Gecko G251's would be a awesome choice for your mill.


Jeff...

Are these new Drivers coming out? I do not see them on the site. Are these the Drivers everyone is talking about as of late??


-Jason

Jason,

Yes, we are patiently waiting on these new drives.

50 volts 3.5 amps and has all the benefits of there higher rated counterparts.

The intro price of $39.00 per G251 is totally awesome.

Jeff...

Uh yea that sounds pretty nice. I just hope they work with my machine and deliver some damn rapids!

I'll be waiting and I would also like too hear from others and there opinions :)



Thanks Jeff!


-Jason

Jason,

We have several Taigs and they work awesome with the full size Gecko's.

The Taig is a very popular machine with jewelry designers.

The new Gecko will be a perfect match, you will not believe how well your mill is going to perform.

We have used all the other entry level brands and they do not compare with the Gecko.

What size steppers do you have?

Jeff...

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&rd=1&item=290161093249&ssPageName=STRK:MEWN:IT&ih=019

use those if you cant wait for the geckos, cheaper too! they are the ones im running on my x2 and can get rapids above 100ipm, running at 45vdc!! cooool

pdf link for manual: http://www.imshome.com/im483.html

The 4 axis G540 is only a few weeks away. And should out perform anything else in it's price range.
http://www.cnczone.com/forums/showpost.php?p=475651&postcount=1158

6 IPM rapids? Thats kinda like Jumbo shrimp. I don't even cut anything at less than 18 IPM on my mill. It's a bit bigger than the Taig though.

My router did pretty good I thought on the Xylotex. That is until I installed my first Gecko's. The difference was night and day. Though I haven't used the little Gecko's yet, I think that is where I would invest. You simply cannot go wrong with those on a small machine. The Keling 48 VDC PS will be perfect for running with the G250's or G251's. It would likely do well with the G540 as well. Motor size and specs might make a difference.

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&rd=1&item=290161093249&ssPageName=STRK:MEWN:IT&ih=019

use those if you cant wait for the geckos, cheaper too! they are the ones im running on my x2 and can get rapids above 100ipm, running at 45vdc!! cooool

pdf link for manual: http://www.imshome.com/im483.html

Those drives are very tempting at the price, however I'm leaning towards waiting for the 540's. Gecko's famous support tilts the balance. Also the pool of knowledge about the new Geckos will grow rapidly.

Keep in mind skmetal's machine has ballscrews and is quite different than your Taig. My Xylotex driven ballscrew X2 can hit well over 100 ipm x-y despite 24v and 425oz-in steppers. However this is with the gibs adjusted very carefully and leaning towards the loose side. At these speeds friction becomes the Xylotex's enemy quickly. In interests of reliability the machine is setup to run slower. Fast enough for my needs.

Someone on the Xylotex yahoo page claims to have a Sherline (20 tpi?) running over 100 ipm. Makes you wonder how loose that machine is running:confused:

Just so everyone knows, here are my motors Specs: http://www.kelinginc.net/KL23H276-30-8B.pdf Let me know if these are a good choice.


So do I wait for the 251's or the 540's? The 540's are more expensive but of the two, which would really be the best and deliver the most power and speed?

-Jason

The G540 is just 4 G250's in a case, ready to plug and play.

Now that I like...:) Don't get me wrong, I like too work with my hands and stuff, but...lets leave the electrics simple and worry about milling :)

So it's 300.00 (Base price) + a Power Supply I need.


-Jason

Perfect on the voltage for those motors in Bipolar Parallel.
A little high on the amps @4.2, but should still run nicely. Much closer to max performance than the Xylotex could provide.

Sweet :) I look forward too these buggers!


-Jason

This was just posted on the cheap drives thread:

The G250 / G251 is looking like mid August. They are not designed to take a cover because they are just too small. The G540 will be available first; we have an ample supply REV5 drives that need rework to correct printed circuit board trace routing errors. These will go into the G540s. Mid August is when we will have the REV6 G250s which have the trace errors corrected in the layout.

Jack

If two Xylotex boards didn't work are you sure the problem isn't somewhere else in your system?

FWIW I use a unipolar HobbyCNC Pro board with 125oz steppers on my X1 and have no problem getting 15+IPM out of it. I haven't lapped the ways or anything so this is probably a heavier load to drive than the Taig.

I think the main issue he had with Xylotex may have been his motors. They are rated at near 48 volts and are rated @ 4.5 amp.
The 2.5 amp on the Xylotex with low voltage will simply yield poor results with nearly anything other than ballscrews and linear ways.

If you tighten the gibbs to get any accuracy, you are cutting out some of the little power you do have.

Resonance is also a big issue on a small machine with the Xylotex. Once you tune the little gecko, you won't see any of that.

Don't get me wrong, a 3 axis Xylotex was my very first drive and Jeff treated me right when I fried the first one. At that time though, these little gecko's weren't thunk up. Once I had my foot in the door and heard all the talk about the speeds other guys were getting, I had to try a Gecko or three. I now own 9 with future purchases on the horizon. :)

So that sounds like a "yes" to my question. Running a stepper under current is pretty much a guarantee for crap results no matter the voltage.

Seems to me like the best thing he could do would be to get some ~200oz motors in the 2-3A range, preferably with a good low inductance rating. Plenty of people have had great results with this sort of setup.

Even with the new Gecko G540, he's only going to be getting 75% of the rated torque, due to the 4.5a rating. For best performance with those motors, you really should get full size Gecko's.

Have you tried running Mach 3 instead?
I used Xylotex boards before with the exact same motors you have
with only a 24V 6A PSU. I was getting 65IPM rapids.
When I switched to a 36V PSU(adjusted to 30) it jumped to 90IPM.
One difference is I had them wired bipolar series and set the board to 2.1A.
As I recall I set the board 1/8 microstepping.
Since you are running 20tpi screws and I had ballscrews, it should still have given you 22.5IPM for the same motor speed.
Bipolar series and Mach 3 might be something to try for sh*ts and giggles.:)

Even with the new Gecko G540, he's only going to be getting 75% of the rated torque, due to the 4.5a rating. For best performance with those motors, you really should get full size Gecko's.

Agreed, but why upgrade to $130/axis drivers when $40/axis motors would probably resolve the situation?

He's can spend $114 for a G201, or $75 per axis for the G540 and $40 for a new motor. Same price either way, and running the motors he has at 4.5 amps will probably give better performance.

If his Xylotex is dead I agree, otherwise, why replace it? It's not a champagne drive anymore but like I said plenty of people have gotten good results with an appropriate setup.

Also I respectfully disagree that the larger motors will necessarily provide better results. They will (probably) provide more torque at a given speed but beyond a certain point all you're doing is making the tires smoke.

You guys have all given great points, but I would rather not waste my money on new steppers and put that money towards better drivers that can handle more voltage. So yea, I can keep the Xylotex and maybe only get 22 IPM, but thats my max and thats pushing everything.

I would rather buy drivers that are better suited for my steppers then the other way around.


Also, from WHAT I HAVE BEEN TOLD, i can only wire my motors in a series. It's the only way, from what I have been told. That is: A+(Blue) A-(Green) B+(Brown) B-(White)


Hoss- I don't have Mach, I would need too download mach too a CD and install it. But I already installed EMC2 on the hard drive and wiped out vista. I could do Xp, but sounds like so much work when I know EMC2 can handle it. I also feel that you obtained better speeds because you were running probably what?...5-10 TPI?


If the 540's are something people don't think will be best for my steppers, I would still like too get Gecko's or even still the 540 and maybe get the appropriate steppers for the Geckos.


I can probably make some money off the system I have now that actually does cut, 6IPM is what I have max, but it can go up a bit more. Far better then what I got from Xylotex board.


-Jason

Ger21- Also, if you don't agree with the 540's, what other Gecko "fullsize" should I look at.

-Jason

One last thing: Hypothetically speaking, If I did keep the xylotex, would this help: 11: NEMA 23 BIPOLAR STEPPER MOTOR 185 oz-in , ¼” shaft with a flat, Specification

KL23H256-21-8B Price: $33. ( in stock) Rated Current: 3.0A, Rated Voltage: 1.9V (in Bipolar Parallel)

Torque –Speed Curve


I was told I can only wire in a Series on the xylotex.


This is just something I want too know and what do people honestly think I could obtain, I couldn't get even cut anything though at like even 10 Rapids. The parts came out all messed up.


Just wondering.


-Jason

How many wires do your motors have?

I mistyped on the motor specs. His amps are 4.2 rather than 4.5. This gets the Gecko's closer in amps on these motors.

You said these motors were installed in series? If that is the case, then there is your trouble. In series, these are 2.1 amps, which is fine if you have the Xylotex tuned down to that rating. The voltage need for series is 95 VDC. I know yu weren't getting anywhere near that.

If anything, the motors you have are just a little big for the gecko's, but not much. As I said the voltage if wired parallel is perfect @ 48 VDC and you would be running them @ 3.5 amps rather than 4.2. That voltage being the full voltage needed with turn the screws much faster than what you have now. You don't really need much torque on a 20 TPI screw. The screw has about all the torque you will need.

The motor spec sheet is in post # 11.

I was told I can only wire in a Series on the xylotex.


-Jason[/B]

I said that because of the motors you have. With different motors, it may not be a problem.

I mistyped on the motor specs. His amps are 4.2 rather than 4.5. This gets the Gecko's closer in amps on these motors.

You said these motors were installed in series? If that is the case, then there is your trouble. In series, these are 2.1 amps, which is fine if you have the Xylotex tuned down to that rating. The voltage need for series is 95 VDC. I know yu weren't getting anywhere near that.

If anything, the motors you have are just a little big for the gecko's, but not much. As I said the voltage if wired parallel is perfect @ 48 VDC and you would be running them @ 3.5 amps rather than 4.2. That voltage being the full voltage needed with turn the screws much faster than what you have now. You don't really need much torque on a 20 TPI screw. The screw has about all the torque you will need.

The motor spec sheet is in post # 11.

But the Xylotex can't supply the 3.5 or 4.x amps per axis from what I have read. So I guess the motors that he has are the issue with performance.

However, the motors that came with my kits were the 425oz 5.0amp. I don't see why his wouldn't work. :confused:
I attached the specs for it and it was used in Series, but they were on a 5tpi screw.


I sent him 2 different kits that I had. They both appeared to do the exact same thing. So that would indicate that the kits were fine, and there is another problem. I looked at EMC2 and linux, but don't have anything to compare with so it was no help.

Hoss- I don't have Mach, I would need too download mach too a CD and install it. But I already installed EMC2 on the hard drive and wiped out vista. I could do Xp, but sounds like so much work when I know EMC2 can handle it. I also feel that you obtained better speeds because you were running probably what?...5-10 TPI?


-Jason [/B]

If he used the factory screws at that time, it would have 16tpi.

The reason I wanted you to try Mach3 was not to keep it, but to test with known settings and see if there may have been something in EMC2 that we have missed. Once we verified that there was performance (or not) using Mach, the process of elimination would have been shorter and less painful. In reality, there could be something in EMC2 that could be limiting your speed with the existing kit.

That is the reason I asked if you had access to a windows PC, just long enough to test.

If he used the factory screws at that time, it would have 16tpi.

Pretty sure Hoss was giving speeds for 5 tpi. I'll also guess he runs the gibs on the tight side, strikes me as that type of animal. That's said with admiration btw ;)


The reason I wanted you to try Mach3 was not to keep it, but to test with known settings and see if there may have been something in EMC2 that we have missed. Once we verified that there was performance (or not) using Mach, the process of elimination would have been shorter and less painful. In reality, there could be something in EMC2 that could be limiting your speed with the existing kit.

That is the reason I asked if you had access to a windows PC, just long enough to test.

EMC2 is well capable of providing the step and direction signals. As mentioned before, my emc controlled X2 on 5tpi can exceed 100 ipm easily if the machine is not set too tight. This is with the Xylotex supplied drives and motors.

However I understand where you're coming from. No one running a xylotex-taig-emc configuration has stepped forward. I'm too green with this electron stuff to be any real help :(

A couple of links in any case
http://www.xylotex.com/System.htm
http://www.xylotex.com/StepperMotor.htm

Reading the FAQ is never a bad idea.

Pretty sure Hoss was giving speeds for 5 tpi. I'll also guess he runs the gibs on the tight side, strikes me as that type of animal. That's said with admiration btw ;)



EMC2 is well capable of providing the step and direction signals. As mentioned before, my emc controlled X2 on 5tpi can exceed 100 ipm easily if the machine is not set too tight. This is with the Xylotex supplied drives and motors.

However I understand where you're coming from. No one running a xylotex-taig-emc configuration has stepped forward. I'm too green with this electron stuff to be any real help :(

A couple of links in any case
http://www.xylotex.com/System.htm
http://www.xylotex.com/StepperMotor.htm

Reading the FAQ is never a bad idea.



I went back through the Hoss X2 Thread and he did install the ballscrews before he converted to a Xylotex.

I knew that EMC was capable, but it wouldn't be impossible to miss a setting that would make a lot of difference. I never doubted that it was a good program, I just need something to compare to so we could isolate the problem. I know what to expect from Mach

I sent the link for the Faq to him several times. :) That was my resource for helping him try and set it up as well as troubleshoot it.

I never doubted that it was a good program, I just need something to compare to so we could isolate the problem.

Oh, it wasn't taken as an insult to emc. I'm a big fan of the emc project and if you had insulted it my response would have been different :) The stepper configuration wizard in emc is new but has proven fairly foolproof in the latest release.

HOWEVER you have put a much effort into trouble shooting this problem. A quick install of the free version of Mach3 doesn't seem a lot to ask in return. Might even turn up something interesting. Just my opinion.

Sure, I plan on learning more about EMC2 and most likely will take that on with my next build. It does look like a really solid performer.

I certainly can understand Jason's position on Mach. Some in the Linux Community feel like MS is a virus. lol.. There was a time when I did to, but that was back in my Novell days. That has since changed.

If he has already removed Windows from the new PC, then he would have to find one to borrow and test with. I don't want to be a bother, I just wanted it to work for him. Not even because I sold him the kit, but because I like his posts and build threads. I wanted to help him out if I could and I had spare stuff.

I am by no means an electronics engineer, otherwise, I would have already re-built my SX3 spindle controller. But I do know how I had the system set up before and it worked. The only differences were the tpi and the motors. And from what I can tell, the motors are not that much different in spec from what I have. Albeit a lighter torque.

I do appreciate the comment though. I try my very best to solve a problem if I am capable. Being a network guy, I follow a logical pattern with everything I do. With that said, that helps me analyze and think out of the box when I know what something should do. Sometimes "Good" and "Acceptable" is not the same performance. In this case it is neither.

I have already spoken with Jason and I will take all of the stuff back and pay for any costs he incurred. Shipping and whatever. Then he can get whatever gear he wants and hopefully get the rapids he is looking for. My intention was never to make money on this deal. I will just get the gear back and experiment. I am going to get a 1/4x20 screw and do some testing with then and see what I can come up with.

I do know that if the Gib was locked on the SX3 that the Xylotex kit would cause the steps to be lost. But you could easily hear when it happened. My first thought was maybe his gibs were to tight, but we have checked that twice. My Gecko's will push through a locked gib now, but I also have a 72v ps on my 203Vs.

It would stand to reason that his existing kit with the high amp 9volt could push a tight gib where the xlotex would have to be looser. Regardless though, he is done trying to solve the problem and I can't blame him. There are days I wish my mill was a Tormach. Simply so I could believe that somebody smarter than me has already went through all these problems with it.

Since you are running 20tpi screws and I had ballscrews, it should still have given you 22.5IPM for the same motor speed.


Yes I run 5 tpi ballscrews which is why I was getting 90 IPM
and yours with 20 tpi screws would only get 22.5 IPM for the same output
from the drivers and motor RPM.
With the increase in torque provided by the 20 tpi screws, I would imagine
I could get that up to 30-40 IPM before losing steps with 20tpi.
Much more than the 6IPM you seem to be stuck with by comparison.
The motor you listed (http://www.kelinginc.net/KL23H276-30-8B.pdf) is an 8 wire so it can be used Bipolar series or parallel
or unipolar.
The Xylotex pdf (http://www.xylotex.com/XS3525V202.pdf) shows the same 3 motor configurations too.
I went with series to match the motor with the Amps available on the xylotex.
Your better off replacing the xylotex anyhow since it's SO easy to fry it if a wire
comes undone under power. I know:(

Davis is a stand up guy, he has done nothing but try too help me. At first, I didn't think it could be my steppers but these last few posts show that it could very well be.

At this point, It's not that i'm "NOT" a fan of the xylotex, I just would rather not purchase stepper motors as opposed too the ones I have. Bottom line is, I think I need a system with high voltage. I like accuracy, so I don't like keeping my gibs that loose even if it does increase speed. And my gibs were by no means tight or too loose to causing binding.

I bought a brand new computer last week thinking it would solve the problem, if that was the case...I might have just bought stepper motors, but I didn't know that. I also did a full install on EMC2 so I didn't have too always set everything up in stepconf over and over. Plus, the computer was intended for Milling only.

I feel bad because Davis did nothing but help me and it's not the boards he sent, but rather a combination of my entire system, the xylotex board and my stepper /Ps combination. It just doesn't work together.


In the end, it's about my system and how I get it too work. I'm going too send everything back too Davis. He will find better use for it anyway, he can end up selling it someone who does have the right stuff. But I know with him, it's not the money he cares about.


I will use the money I get back and put towards the new gecko system. I really need that power, if it's not the 540's then I will be patient and find what suites it best. Hopefully, we can all work together and help me find a system and put are opinions in.


So lets get back too technical talk and see what will work really well with what I have? What gecko's or keling drivers may work.


-Jason

Also too Hoss' post. I am a little worried that something may happen like that too and it may fry, I don't want too be out more money. So, it's best I think too get a whole new system and use what i have now which is what I have been using for months.

I do get work weekly where I cannot afford too try and solve issues and do all this testing. Ok, maybe a few days of tuning. But last week I wanted too pull my hair out and blow up my machine!!!!!!!!!

Agreed. :)

Thanks for the comments Jason. Believe me, money will come and go, but if one looses integrity with it, all is lost. I place very little value on money. It is the intangible things that give a person worth.

Just let me know what you spent on shipping and what not and I will get you refunded. I'm sorry it didn't work out for you. When all this started I was sure I could help you get going. This has been a learning experience for me as well. I truly hope you find the rapids and cutting speed you are looking for. I hated it when my Z axis was running at 10ipm. It really is painful, just because the extra time and production lost.

Very true, it's not like I plan on cutting at 20 IPM but let me say, that having rapids in the 20 IPM + really helps my production time. That along with no skipped steps his huge!

Plus I would like too use my Taig for personal use things, obviously the mill Is mine, but I never for the heck of it decide too mill "BS" things that could be fun to do. Everything is business related. I would like too increase production but also use it for other things.



-Jason