I'm a hobbyist watchmaker and I'm looking at getting a mill. I will be doing work mostly in brass, but would like the flexibility to machine larger parts for other projects as well. Possibly even some light steel work. The watch work would be mostly drilling at very precise locations within a relatively small area (generally no larger than 40mmx40mm).

I'm looking at CNCing either a Proxxon MF70, Sieg X1, or Sieg X2. Can I get the X1 or X2 to be accurate enough to machine such small items without major improvements? The spindle speed of the MF70 seems attractive, and it seems much easier than the other options to convert to CNC.

Does any have any input? Price isn't factor when considering any of these three, it's more of a which one is the best fit scenario. It seems like the MF70 would be the best option for the small precision items, but if I can get the flexibility to mill large parts as well with an X1 or X2 it would be worth the extra money.

Neither of those are going to really be appropriate for what you are doing, the Proxxon is not very rigid, the X1 and X2 are definitely not what you need at all.
If you have the budget there are machines like the Minitech with the NSK spindle, and the Model Master mills would work well for that job too. Both are unfortunately in the $10k territory, but are definitely the right tools for that job.

How much rigidity do you need for watch parts?

Link55: Would love to see pics of your work. I played around with watchmaking for a bit, took the TZ level 1 course. Amazing how small and delicate some of those parts are!

Dave

How much rigidity do you need for watch parts?

Dave

Not much actually. The Proxxon can do a surprising amount for what it is, but with a frame made from half a dozen pounds of zinc castings it just doesn't have the ability to produce a good smooth surface finish on even the smallest metal parts. This can be very important for watchmaking.

I don't know what the budget is here, there are machines that fit in between that will work well too, but those two I mentioned really are the right tools for the job if you can afford them.
Two machines in the about the same price range as those solutions he originally listed would be the Sherline and the Taig. Not perfect for the job, but adequate, and a thousand times better suited than the alternatives originally listed.

"Proxxon MF70, Sieg X1, or Sieg X2. Can I get the X1 or X2 to be accurate enough to machine such small items without major improvements? The spindle speed of the MF70 seems attractive, and it seems much easier than the other options to convert to CNC."

None of the above machines would be a good choice for a watch maker.

Stepper Monkey's advise to you is very good.

If you don't have the budget the Taig might get you by however the Minitech would be the much better choice.

Make sure you do your homework before wasting lots of time and money on a less expensive import that can not come close to watchmakers tolerances without extreme modifications.

Jeff Alessi

Not much actually. The Proxxon can do a surprising amount for what it is, but with a frame made from half a dozen pounds of zinc castings it just doesn't have the ability to produce a good smooth surface finish on even the smallest metal parts. This can be very important for watchmaking.

I don't know what the budget is here, there are machines that fit in between that will work well too, but those two I mentioned really are the right tools for the job if you can afford them.
Two machines in the about the same price range as those solutions he originally listed would be the Sherline and the Taig. Not perfect for the job, but adequate, and a thousand times better suited than the alternatives originally listed.

I didn't realize the Proxxon was quite such a, um, lightweight. ;) Sorry about that.

The Minitech and the Model Master both look like a good bet, and the Taig could probably be coaxed into doing the job. Even 10K RPM's is going to seem slow in that scale of work. :) And the accuracy is going to need some hand-holding.

Shipping weight for a complete MF70 Proxxon mill with accessories is 15.5 lb. That is the whole mill package. I am only guessing at the weight of the underlying zinc structural castings, but 6 pounds or so is certainly in the right ballpark.
It sounds like a just toy, but it can actually pull off some neat stuff for the person cutting only very small waxes, foams, plastics, and doing engraving. Some model and diorama builders use them to good effect.
Not too good for watchmaking though.


The trick to using a Taig or Sherline for this work is to unclip the stock spindle/motor combo (or just order it without one) and replace it with a 25k+ spindle from Wolfgang Engineering or similar. The Proxxon I/BE is another inexpensive option good to about 20k. Both are cheap options if you want to avoid the thousands an NSK spindle will run, and both can just clip right to the dovetail with the proper mount, no mods necessary.
The machines still require regular adjustments and maintenance to keep it all tight though, something the more expensive machines don't generally ever have a problem with. Both type are capable of the same high quality of work, there is mainly the very serious matter of time involved in the tweaking and keeping the cheaper units adjusted and true if you are using it in a professional environment.

I am a former Taig owner, now Tormach owner, and would sincerely love to be a Haas MiniMill owner. Not the biggest machines on the block. ;) But 15.5 lbs just blows my mind!

Thanks for all the responses so far. This project was done with a manual (as far as I can tell) Proxxon MF70:

http://web.ticino.com/dcorson/watch/WatchNet-1_files/WN1.htm

I am not set on any of these three mills. I don't have a set budget, but would like to stay around $1,000 pre-CNC since this will be my first mill. I have considered the Sherline, but the spindle speed didn't seem high enough.

I'll take a look at some of the other recommendations.

Also worth noting is that I'd really be more interested in using this CNC drilling (plates, dials, etc), most of the things I'd be doing can be done with a lathe. There won't be any serious milling going on.

That was some amazing work. I see the gears were cut on a manual MF70, but I very seriously doubt those plates could have been. Some very clean work there. I'm wearing something built up from most of a 2824 ebauche myself right now, so I can see what size those really are up close and that is some damn tiny work!

I think you can easily stay under $1000 pre-cnc. Although the Sherline headstock does have an adapter to make it run to 10k RPM like the Taig, that is still far too slow, and like the Taig the headstock is far too big and too cumbersome for what you need.

Look at this; http://stores.ebay.com/Wolfgang-Engineering

The spindle fits in the mount, the mount simply clips to the Z slide using the same standard mounting point. He makes both a Sherline version and a Taig version to attach to the factory mounts. No mods, takes five minutes to attach.
It is actually slightly cheaper than the standard headstock to get this setup, so you can simply order a machine from the manufacturer minus headstock assembly (they do it all the time, it's not an uncommon request from people like us) and then fit this, and it is still slightly cheaper than a stock machine.
Both of those choices will run about a grand. If you happen to be unlucky and run into the rare dealer that is not willing to ship minus headstock, simply find another one. It is a very commonly filled request, but on occasion a sales guy will try to BS you into buying the whole package saying they only ship one way from the manufacturer.

link55,

Check out this video of an NC program I wrote and verified for another forum user here who is making a large clock gear:

YouTube - vericut clock part

Donald,

Your work is totally off the board.

All done with a Proxxon, all I can say is WOW DUDE

Jeff...

Mike: Very cool! I'm not sure how many wheels I'll be making, but definitely something to play with.

Now for a question I'm sure is not going to be answered answered briefly, but in a matter of opinion which is better - a Sherline or a Taig? I would be looking to replace the motor and spindle with something similar to what Stepper Monkey outlined above.

Again, thanks for all the input.

link55,

I think the Sherline is a very well made and supported machine but it is also a very small machine. I am not really aquainted with the Taig but from what I saw on there website it is a much more heavy duty machine. :D

Mike is right. Of the two, the Taig is a much heavier, more capable, and robust machine. Also the most performance range for the buck.

That being said, when you get down to people using the machines for things inside of the tiny envelopes you are working with, they both do the job at hand equally well and it just comes down to personal preference.

I think many people might give the nod to the Sherline, if only because they have been out there forever - it sort of became the standard for years for people doing really fine detail work in the jewelry, watch, model engine, and micro machining fields. There are also a ton of accessories available (even if a bit overpriced), and more people are familiar with them. It is certainly also arguable that they are easier to adjust, if also arguable that you have to adjust them more often. They are very nicely built, with surprisingly good fit and finish, though they have had some occasional reports of spotty QC of late trying to compete with both US entries like Taig and the cheaper Chinese products.

The Taig is much sturdier and capable of much heavier cuts, though this may not be very relevant to you. It has very inexpensive accessories, though they are not as plentiful. It can use Sherline accessories as well, but simple adapter plates have to be made for some Sherline parts as the two machines have different t-slot spacing. It is as least as accurately and as well constructed as the Sherline, and with stouter components. It is also slightly cheaper, as among other reasons it has a much uglier and more raw appearance, though this should not be taken as indicative of poor build quality. It was definitely engineered by a machinist for machinists, and never had to survive in retail settings, and so if it wasn't a toleranced surface it was simply left raw. No polished and brightly anodized exterior on a Taig. The money is all in the hardware. It can be more of a pain to adjust backlash as compared to a Sherline.

Most of the major differences are with the stock spindles and motors which you won't be using anyway.

I can't think of anything else offhand, but perhaps one of the jewelry or watchmaker forums would have better advice on which one is easier to live with day-to-day for your kind and size of work. I wouldn't know.

Stepper Monkey,

I agree 100% :D

Mike, Stepper,

I agree 200%

Where is Hoss, he might even agree.


Jeff...

Are you sure you need CNC. Seems to me a good machine fitted with hires linear scales and a DRO might be more bang for your particular buck.

Have you looked at this manufacturer:

http://www.cowells.com/index.htm

not cheap but nice.

Phil


I'm a hobbyist watchmaker and I'm looking at getting a mill. I will be doing work mostly in brass, but would like the flexibility to machine larger parts for other projects as well. Possibly even some light steel work. The watch work would be mostly drilling at very precise locations within a relatively small area (generally no larger than 40mmx40mm).

I'm looking at CNCing either a Proxxon MF70, Sieg X1, or Sieg X2. Can I get the X1 or X2 to be accurate enough to machine such small items without major improvements? The spindle speed of the MF70 seems attractive, and it seems much easier than the other options to convert to CNC.

Does any have any input? Price isn't factor when considering any of these three, it's more of a which one is the best fit scenario. It seems like the MF70 would be the best option for the small precision items, but if I can get the flexibility to mill large parts as well with an X1 or X2 it would be worth the extra money.

well impressed with that