Hello,

I want to get into the CNC world, but on a small scale with a mini cnc machine. I don't have anything cnc related, ie cutting tools etc. So I am asking for suggestions on what buy in order to be prepared to start milling aluminum parts at or below 500mm x 200mm x 3mm in size.

There are many companies that sell mini cnc mills, but what makes one better over another? Is high RPM important? Are there some machines not built as well as others that I should stay away from?

What software do I need other than SolidWorks in order to control the cnc machine?

What are some good cutting tools to have, etc? All your help would be greatly appreciated. Thanks and hope to hear from someone soon.

I'd look at the Haas minimill
http://www.haascnc.com/details_VMC_NEW.asp?ID=39#VMCTreeModel

Preowned HAAS? Are they in that range? New Haas...even the minis are more than what I have for a budget.

I reccomend Haas to anyone starting out due to the fact that there support is untouchable. Even if you buy a used machine, they will help and a lot of the time you can go on there web site and find answers yourself from the answer man.

Tooling should not really worry you...thats going to depend on your particular product you are going to be machining.....and when looking for mini machines RPM is important. You are most likely going to be using max cutters of 1 inch dia. and generally not above 1/2"

Do you have machining experience? Again depending on your particular machining needs you may not need Autocad, Solidworks etc. I like Gibbs CAM for programming it does a nice job. I used both Autocad & Solidworks as well for cad work but these are expensive items. Autocad LT will save you a lot of $$$ and it will help you make mill or lathe math calculations when starting out.
Do you have CAD experience? The Haas Control will do a lot of Math for you also, and insert it in the program.

You need to lay out what your planning and then make your equipment match.
You can buy too small !.........make yourself a business plan of sorts and make all the pieces of the puzzle fit nicely together. It will save you a lot of time & Money and a lot of hard lessons you can do without. You need to come out of gate making money, not sorting out problems.

Get in touch also with a Haas rep and he may know of someone that needs to go bigger or that is in trouble and you can find big savings on a used mini.

Welcome to the Zone!
Save a good $2-3000 for your tooling,clamping,measuring etc, which
would leave enough for the
Industrial Hobbies (http://www.industrialhobbies.com/) or the Tormach (http://www.tormach.com/Product_PCNC_main.html) that would handle anything you want to throw at them.
The IH has servos and more travel, more than the 500mm x 200mm you wanted.
You be hard pressed to find any complaints on either.
They are brutes, nothing mini about them.
Mach 3 (http://www.machsupport.com/) is the best for controlling the mills for the money.

I don't know why Haas is even being suggested. Guys, his budget is 10K for everything. A Haas mini starts at 33K. Even the base toolroom starts at 24K. Any used machine in budget will be beat to crap. A Haas Mini only has 16" of X. He needs 20".

The Tormach doesn't quite meet the work envelope needs either, with 18" of X. Outside of that it's primo. A good machine in budget.

The Industrial Hobbies would more than meet the work envelope and budget needs. Just be sure to get the VFD option if you go this route.

Honestly if your parts are only 3mm thick in aluminum there may be some CNC routers up to the job. I don't know much about them but it may be worth asking in the router forum.

Serge

I agree that the tormach is a great machine.

I've met with the IH guys at their Connecticut shop and have to say I'm really impressed with the machine! The only reason I haven't bought one is that I couldn't fit it in my apartment...

The tormach is certainly great as well and is backed by a more "formal" company with R&D, documentation, etc, but I find that the IH servos & larger travel make it really compelling!

This is in reference to the Tormach .... I am not breaking hearts here.. but the Tormach is SO limited it is sad..... 1.5 horsepower guys...use your head...Unless of course ALL you are going to do is run a 1/16 drill. Haas minis have TOOL Changers and 7.5hp

The reason I suggest Haas is because you can with patience find the minis around 8K - 10 k used, and new he COULD use part of his money to finance a new machine and NOT be so limited, and second I do not buy nor would I suggest something without a service record. Tormach is reputable, but I have been in the posistion of owning something I for one cannot get parts for and 2 cannot talk to anyone who can speak english when I needed service help. And even worse I have shelled out $147,000.00 for a piece of equipment that was so limited in its work envelope that eventually I had to go buy a larger machine to fit more opportunities. You can buy a little larger than you need....and have possibilities.....but if you push the envelope the other way you will learn like I did.

You really need to Plan it all out carefully and not get in a hurry.
Sorry...but thats the way it is...... You get what you pay for!

I wish I had a Mini Hass. God those machines are beautiful :)


-Jason

This is in reference to the Tormach .... I am not breaking hearts here.. but the Tormach is SO limited it is sad..... 1.5 horsepower guys...use your head...Unless of course ALL you are going to do is run a 1/16 drill. Haas minis have TOOL Changers and 7.5hp

The reason I suggest Haas is because you can with patience find the minis around 8K - 10 k used, and new he COULD use part of his money to finance a new machine and NOT be so limited, and second I do not buy nor would I suggest something without a service record. Tormach is reputable, but I have been in the posistion of owning something I for one cannot get parts for and 2 cannot talk to anyone who can speak english when I needed service help. And even worse I have shelled out $147,000.00 for a piece of equipment that was so limited in its work envelope that eventually I had to go buy a larger machine to fit more opportunities. You can buy a little larger than you need....and have possibilities.....but if you push the envelope the other way you will learn like I did.

You really need to Plan it all out carefully and not get in a hurry.
Sorry...but thats the way it is...... You get what you pay for!

I regularly milled titanium with a 3/8" end mill taking heavy depths of cut on a Tormach. You don't know what you are talking about.

Limitations Mike, and yes I do know what I am talking about!

If you think a Tormach will out perform a Haas Mini, well it is self evident that someone does not know what they are talking about, however in your defense because I am that kinda guy...... it is not Apples to Apples either.

But you still get what you pay for.

Jason Good Wish! Hope you get one. Super Mini on Ebay now for $29,500 Or best offer sweeeeet. 10,000 rpm too! rigid tap! Tool changer!

And just a note Aprox $7k for a tormach NO OPTIONS add then and tell me what a deal it is. And to be fair add em all to compete with a mini cause it already has them ( to be fair ) Dont forget your computer.....or there pre configured dell.

...use your head...Unless of course ALL you are going to do is run a 1/16 drill

That statement is a load of crap is what I'm saying. With a $10,000 total investment what's the guy supposed to do? Buy the used mini mill and be flat broke with no money for all the support gear? Great plan Goo....

Hit the auctions and be patient. I got an older (working) Fadal for 9000. And if you are lucky you'll find people giving machines away, you haul, that can upgraded if you have the time and abilities.

Don't forget to budget the software. Mine was $12k.

Now Mike dont go gettin all upset...... And I never told him to spend all his money. Far from it. If he spent $7k on a tormach he would only have $3k left to fit his shop......and a machine that wont run! .......that is a problem! I think $7800 it will come with a Pre configured Dell computer. Tormach can hit near $20K with options! (some nice options too ) ( But still no tool changer ) I am not kickin your machine in the butt Mike, I am just tellin the guy make sure what you are doing and make sure the machine fits the need!

The Tormach has its place in Mfg. or it would not be on market and doing good. My point is your FIRST machine better have flexibility in an ever changing world of Mfg.

Pay attention...... PLAN PLAN PLAN

Ever heard of financing? Dont use all you got coming out of the gate..thats insane. Besides a Tormach is gonna use all of his $10K Mike and you know it....well unless he finances it???? good idea, but then we are back to limitations arent we!

Good buy on the Fadal Warren. Had a 30 x 16XT loved that machine! It performed very well and you can pick those up at good prices.

Also, I have also seen on local state sites where you can bid on excess machinery from like the tech schools and some of the minis are showing up there.... but keep in mind you will be required to arrange rigging and moving.

I want to get into the CNC world, but on a small scale with a mini cnc machine. I don't have anything cnc related, ie cutting tools etc. So I am asking for suggestions on what buy in order to be prepared to start milling aluminum parts at or below 500mm x 200mm x 3mm in size.

So the Tormach can't handle 3mm sheets of alu? Come on! Nor the Tormach or the Haas is big enough to handle the workpiece he wanted to machine. So far the IH mill is his best bet for that price.

Depending on what type of parts you are making, a tool changer might not even be that big a deal. If you run parts that take 3 hours to machine, then you could probably just live with changing tools when the machine asks for it.

The Haas is a beautiful machine, and if it actually fits his needs and he can afford it, then he should buy it. But you can't say that it's the only machine he should buy. Thats just too narrow minded.

PS. cncgooroo have you ever seen or used a tormach?

So I am asking for suggestions on what buy in order to be prepared to start milling aluminum parts at or below 500mm x 200mm x 3mm in size.

Okay, that's a specific size, especially the thickness. Or rather thinness in this case.

Do you have a family of parts in mind?
Will this be a business or a hobby?
How many hours a week do you intend to run the machine?
Where will the machine be placed? Basement? Garage? Industrial shop?

I believe (as someone suggested) routers are sometimes used for large flat sheets of aluminum up to that thickness.

Continuing the OT part of this thread:
Sometimes I window shop VMC's on ebay. Then the realities of rigging, shipping, residential electrical service, the cost to maintain/repair, etc, sets in. Not to say it can't be done.

Edit/ It is possible to machine a piece in 2 setups to work around limited travel. A bit of a nuisance or a disaster depending on the work. Also you haven't said whether the whole 500x200 piece needs work done to it. If the periphery needs no machining things change.

Yes I have seen a Tormach and other machines in its field.

Please Pay attention I did not say it was the Only machine for this guy.

However with extended knowledge in manufacturing and machine tools I did Recommend a mini mill based on facts and technical specifications.

Let me present you guys with a scenario....

Lets say ( joe ) has a job to look at! Good contract work and he sells himself and his equipment to (company A ) and everything is cool. Now Joe is preparing to machine 500mm x 200mm x 3mm parts and his order is 1000 pcs. ( lets assume he only needs 3 tools ) that would not be to bad even on a Tormach..... Now with out a tool changer that would be 3000 tool changes by hand @ 30 sec each ( and that is giving operator a pat on the back ) thats 25 hours changing tools.

The above was to make a Mfg. point! Time is money! Now we do not know if he will be doing a production type part, large qty runs or 100 other variables that could come into play. But I would assume that he would desire to drop $10K investment and he would hope to make it back + some.

That is why all my post Recommended a haas but it did not tell him that it was the only machine. Guys all my post have told him to make a plan... a business plan and if he can not get the dots to connect with his $10K he is NOT ready to go in business.

In the above sceario lets say joe buys any mill and it is small Mini or Tormach or one of 10 other brands of Table mill, they get him moving and he invests his $$$ and 30 60 90 days later they say well Joe..... we have found someone to make the part .10 cents cheaper. Now lets say that .10 cents is now making joe trade dollar for dollar... oops... now joe is in trouble.

Lets say Joe says no and now has NO work.... he beats the street and the only available contracts he can find will not fit his machines work envelope.

Thats why I keep telling Joe to do his homework. The Tormach may very well be what he needs, but make sure.

Yes I have seen a Tormach and other machines in its field.

Translation = "No, I've never actually seen one operating in person but I have on the internet." (nuts)

Sorry, Mike I hate to dissapoint you again, but yes I have and I still think the Mini is way more bang for the buck $$$$.

and you know I can see this is just too personal for you.


From the words of Dragnet....... Just the facts maam, Just the facts!

even if it hurts!

And I also looked at the Light machines also! (Light is a brand if you did not know) and just like the Tormach its limitations for my Mfg. needs or Possible needs led me to the Dark side to Haas. Come Mike, Come to the Dark Side, Come on it will be OK and we can machine a lot of stuff even go 15,000 rpm.......And we have Milk & Cookies too!

But I will say the Tormach was better than the Light in my opinion! Heavier Built.

Minigoo,

Can we agree to diagree and say Moseltov?:cheers:

You are a gentleman and a scholar!

Moseltov!

Are you a siemens NX6 expert? My son in indiana just this year took a job with a mold shop that just went to Unigraphics. The change over has been bumpy but I think they are up & running smooth now. NX6 same as Unigraphics?

Actually, I sell Siemens NX and yes UGS (Unigraphics) is the same. Siemens bought UGS a few years ago.

But I would assume that he would desire to drop $10K investment and he would hope to make it back + some.

Assume being the operative word ;)
Beyond the size and type of material, we know nothing of OP's intentions. Maybe he/she is paneling the garage with aluminum artwork, is a sculptor, is only drilling holes, something else unexpected. People are willing to lay down $10G for all kinds of reasons. A local acquaintance has spent much more than that creating a scaled down Stonehenge. Another local has a woodworking shop most professionals would envy, only does work for himself or family. These are affluent times for many.

Just saying maybe wait to see what OP is up to before suggesting equipment?

The facts are they are two different machines for two different purposes, neither of which fits the OP's requirement.

Phil



From the words of Dragnet....... Just the facts maam, Just the facts!

cyclestart & philbur,

Good points. No Feed hold there. :D

Wow, thanks to all who responded. I have been looking seriously at the Industrial Hobbies machine. Anyone have bad experience with it? My goal with this machine is to do small runs...at least initially. I like the idea of being able to produce a part quickly, ie design the part and run out to the shop and make it happen. I hate the idea of waiting 30 days or more for a prototype that might not even work and then an additional 30 days to finally get something I can sell. Turnaround is essential.
So...if I have the machine and SolidWorks software- what CAM software should I buy and what other base necessities should I have?

Also...is there a good option for a mini cnc lathe or is there a machine out there that can be a lathe and a vertical cnc machine combined or is that a dumb question?

CNCWNTTOOBE - check our Tormach's new product - http://www.tormach.com/Product_PCNC_lathe.html. Sounds like it's spot on for your request. There's also a thread going on discussing this new lathe add-on here: http://tinyurl.com/5hqtrq.

I still struggle with recommending the Tormach over the IH; the servos and extra travel on the IH are so compelling!!