Hi All,

I am new to the forum, and new to CNC in general.
I am cad based drafting with basic CNC orgrammng skills and I will be setting up a workshop at home. I am looking for a 4 axis machine, for working aluminium, and steel to 1/4" with a 1/16" cut.

Currently in Australia, I reckon I have two choices of Mill:-
1. The Taig - http://www.taig.com.au/index.php?main_page=product_info&products_id=429
2. X4 Plus - http://www.syil.com.au/product_X4Plus.php

It looks like the X4 has more whistles and bells , is this a good thing?

NB: The taig I can get for about $4.5K (5.1K with 4th axis)

Do any of you use either of these?
Which is the better start-up machine, pros - cons?
Any advice you can offer is appreciated....

Thx in adv,

Stew.

Just a quick piece of advice, Get the largest machine you can afford. I Bought an X2 and am wishing that I bought the X3. The X4 is quite a bit larger then the Taig, And I dont think that you would regret it. I know that I wouldn't. Just my 2 cents. -Adam

Two things I can add;

First, you should be able to find a complete Taig setup for closer to half that amount, if not over there then shipped in from the US. There are good and bad ways to do it as regards reducing/eliminating the duty, if you need help with that we can advise.

Second, Even though they have comparable cutting areas, the X4 is a HELL of a lot bigger, heavier and more capable of bigger cuts than a Taig, so if you can afford it just go that route unless you really know you'll only ever be doing lighter workpieces or you require the compactness and/or portability.

Biggest is best has to be qualified.

The Taig has a spindle sped of 11,000 rpm the X4 3,200 rpm. This will make a big difference if you are using lots of small diameter cutters.

Phil

Just a quick piece of advice, Get the largest machine you can afford. I Bought an X2 and am wishing that I bought the X3. The X4 is quite a bit larger then the Taig, And I dont think that you would regret it. I know that I wouldn't. Just my 2 cents. -Adam

Biggest is best has to be qualified.

The Taig has a spindle sped of 11,000 rpm the X4 3,200 rpm. This will make a big difference if you are using lots of small diameter cutters.

Phil

Phil, you mean the Taig's higher speed will be better for smaller radii and fillets?


Stepper, "reducing or eliminating duty"? means what to me and a taig?

Sorry to be a newbie, but I am....

Phil, you mean the Taig's higher speed will be better for smaller radii and fillets?

Higher speed means you can use smaller cutting tools for detail work, circuit boards, modeling, engraving, etc. Things a big mill can't really do well. Proper RPM and feedrates for tools are very important, and one of the defining features of small tools are very much higher speeds they have to spin at. If you are planning on using, say, 3/8" or 1/2" diameter mills to really remove material you will be using the slow spindle speed ranges of the heavier machines.
To run smaller bits, especially 1/8" and below, you absolutely need much faster spindle RPM's and a very much lighter headstock and lower mass of a smaller machine.

Some people, generally those who never cut small parts, will say that you can cut a small part on a big machine but you can't cut a big part on a small machine. That is only about half right.

To cut small parts at all effectively you really do have to use a light machine.

Cutting really heavy materials on a Taig is slow and time consuming, and with mixed results. It really excels at very light to medium work.
Cutting small, fine detail work on an X4 is frustrating and expensive at best, and also with mixed results. It really excels at medium to heavy work.

You need to define what you are going to be doing to determine the best machine to use.

Stepper, "reducing or eliminating duty"? means what to me and a taig?

Duty - as in tariffs or import taxes or whatever you call them. Depending on how something is categorized you can get hit for a little or a lot, and sometimes nothing at all. If you don't know the right bureaucratic numbering nonsense to put on the package they can want an arm and a leg in taxes when you go to pick it up!

So Stew now Stepper has brought us to the question you should have asked yourself in the first place. What am I going to use it for.

A 14 lb sledge hammer is good for breaking rocks. A 4 oz pin hammer is good for cabinet work. Each is not very good at the other. Before you pick the tool analyse the job.

Phil

Higher speed means you can use smaller cutting tools for detail work, circuit boards, modeling, engraving, etc. Things a big mill can't really do well. Proper RPM and feedrates for tools are very important, and one of the defining features of small tools are very much higher speeds they have to spin at. If you are planning on using, say, 3/8" or 1/2" diameter mills to really remove material you will be using the slow spindle speed ranges of the heavier machines.
To run smaller bits, especially 1/8" and below, you absolutely need much faster spindle RPM's and a very much lighter headstock and lower mass of a smaller machine.

Some people, generally those who never cut small parts, will say that you can cut a small part on a big machine but you can't cut a big part on a small machine. That is only about half right.

To cut small parts at all effectively you really do have to use a light machine.

Cutting really heavy materials on a Taig is slow and time consuming, and with mixed results. It really excels at very light to medium work.
Cutting small, fine detail work on an X4 is frustrating and expensive at best, and also with mixed results. It really excels at medium to heavy work.

You need to define what you are going to be doing to determine the best machine to use.



Duty - as in tariffs or import taxes or whatever you call them. Depending on how something is categorized you can get hit for a little or a lot, and sometimes nothing at all. If you don't know the right bureaucratic numbering nonsense to put on the package they can want an arm and a leg in taxes when you go to pick it up!

Proper RPM and Feedrates are important and so is knowing WHAT they should be.
You can check any industry standard calculator or chart out there, such as this one (http://www.whitney-tool.com/html/calculatorSpeedFeed.html), to see that
11,000 RPM (Taig max) is the recommended RPM for a HSS endmill no smaller than .209 inch for aluminum or plastic.
Recommended RPM for a .125 endmill is 18,335. A 1/16 endmill needs 36669 RPM.
Carbide tools would double these RPM's if you want to use your equipment properly.
Makes the need for an addon High Speed spindle obvious.
The Air turbine spindle we use on the Matsuura at work tops out at 75000 RPM
which matches it to the 1/32 endmills used on occasion.
There are plenty of electric models that could be used on the X4 if you need to delve
into the circuit board, engraving areas.
Just something to keep in mind.

Phil, Generally I will be using it for RC parts for 1/8 and 1/5 scale buggies.
Material of choice will be 6-10mm (1/4 - 3/8") 6061 or 7075 aluminium. I may dosome plastic, but not alot.
Component size will be at best 150mm - 180mm x 60-70mm unless I start doing chassis plates (these can be up to 400mm long. a stretch for the taig)
I will also be looking at circular machining for bead locks and possibly billet wheels (these I know will be slow).

I don't reckon I'll be doing circuit boards.

Basically, I want to tool around in my shed on weekends for fun, this project is not cash motivated.

Since it is for fun and therefore production speed isn't critical, you could get away with either one just fine. While both can do the jobs you describe, it sounds like the X4 is the best suited to your needs by far given a choice of the two as it has the power for not only doing it faster but offers a lot of other extra capability as well.

If you want to do any stuff with wheels you will absolutely need a rotary table. You won't necessarily need a big or expensive one, but you will need one.

Stepper...

The X4 can also do very light work with great accuracy .. it does have Double ball nuts.

The X4 can travel at around 6000mm/min with accuracy of 0.01mm or better... a lot of people are adding a High Speed spindle to the X4 to do the high speed machining you are talking about.. with a HS spindle on the X4 you can do everything and more than smaller lighter machines... Smaller machines are really only good for plastics or other soft material.

The point is it is comparing Apples to Oranges...

cheers

Frans




Higher speed means you can use smaller cutting tools for detail work, circuit boards, modeling, engraving, etc. Things a big mill can't really do well. Proper RPM and feedrates for tools are very important, and one of the defining features of small tools are very much higher speeds they have to spin at. If you are planning on using, say, 3/8" or 1/2" diameter mills to really remove material you will be using the slow spindle speed ranges of the heavier machines.
To run smaller bits, especially 1/8" and below, you absolutely need much faster spindle RPM's and a very much lighter headstock and lower mass of a smaller machine.

Some people, generally those who never cut small parts, will say that you can cut a small part on a big machine but you can't cut a big part on a small machine. That is only about half right.

To cut small parts at all effectively you really do have to use a light machine.

Cutting really heavy materials on a Taig is slow and time consuming, and with mixed results. It really excels at very light to medium work.
Cutting small, fine detail work on an X4 is frustrating and expensive at best, and also with mixed results. It really excels at medium to heavy work.

You need to define what you are going to be doing to determine the best machine to use.



Duty - as in tariffs or import taxes or whatever you call them. Depending on how something is categorized you can get hit for a little or a lot, and sometimes nothing at all. If you don't know the right bureaucratic numbering nonsense to put on the package they can want an arm and a leg in taxes when you go to pick it up!

with a HS spindle on the X4 you can do everything and more than smaller lighter machines... Smaller machines are really only good for plastics or other soft material.

People keep repeating that a lot, but it still doesn't make it true. Big machines are certainly more flexible, but there is a reason there are different sized machines out there, and it isn't just space or cost. They have different purposes, and there are things that can be done in hardened steel with a machine no bigger than an X4's head casting that you just can't attempt with an X4.

No matter what an X4 has for max XY table travel speed or accuracy, it doesn't have the accel, especially on Z. The Z head mass and screw/motor setup stops it from being at all useful for much small high-detail cutting, and hanging yet more mass on it with a side-mounted high speed spindle makes it even worse.
Hoss was right in that you can indeed use this type of setup on a large mill for engraving and circuit boards just as well on a big machine as a small one. Those two specific jobs don't require the Z to do much obviously, not during a cut, and thats the real limit. For those things a side mounted spindle will do fine, and it is a useful thing indeed. Much of the rest of the very broad range of very small cutter/high speed work can't be done well on a big machine. Much of it can't be done at all. Period. Physics make it impossible. There just aren't two ways about it.

Sometime soon here I will post a detailed explanation of what makes a machine work for cutting in that range so you guys can better understand. It makes very simple, intuitive, and very plain sense once you look at it, but unless you do this kind of work a lot there are a bunch of things that you wouldn't normally think of right off. Trust me, its not rocket science. One I put some of it out there I'm sure you'll agree.
It is a very, very different perspective from normal machining and many design factors that normally make for an excellent machine for normal scale work can be serious disadvantages or a complete killer at small scale.

Sorry but :bs:
A bigger mill has a bigger motor to move it's bigger head.
From the specs listed the Taig has a rapid speed of 30 IPM
and the X4 has 70 IPM.
Seems like it should move faster.
Unless you want to measure them side by side in a lab to see which
saves a few microseconds accelerating to it's rapid or equal feedrate.
Don't blink or you'll miss the difference.
I'd put my money on the X4.
Proof is in the pudding as they say.
Found this video on Youtube that shows an X4 milling in 3D.
The Z axis is moving pretty quick during the finish pass.
The mass of the head doesn't seem to be an issue.
Looks like a sweet machine, What are the US importers waiting for?
X4 Plus - Cut Demonstration
Fast forward to about 5:07 for the finish pass.

Hmmm, a rebuttal before I've even had a chance to post the arguments. Interesting.

An intelligent person might say, "I am unfamiliar with that reasoning, I'm not sure I would agree, I'd like to see any arguments that would make you take that position" before jumping in with proclamations of how wrong they are.

Instead, you take the interesting position that you don't need to see any pesky facts or even any arguments before proclaiming someone wrong. As usual, that they simply aren't you is apparently enough for you to be convinced they are an idiot. Decisions without information, how enlightened of you...
Your traditional stance of "I already know everything, and I is the smartest human alive, and so if you don't agree with me you must be a moron" might work in backwoods West Virginia. Doesn't fly in civilized parts of the world.

fellas... c'mon.

Stepper Monkey: Is it actually facts or just your own experience?

Instead of throwing crap back, just post your arguements. I'm interesting in hearing what you have to say.

Here's a simple solution, post a video of your taig making some part that
Physics make it impossible for the X4 to handle along
with the Gcode and the tech specs for feed/speed, material and tooling
so that an X4 owner can duplicate it and show all that, as usual,
you are just talking out of your *ss.
We don't need to read your thesis on why something should be true on paper.
Real world results matter, put up or shut up.
Stick to Geology, skiing and jewelry Harry, leave the machining advice
to those of us that are actually experienced professionals with real equipment or
enthusiastic hobbyists that are savvy enough to share their ideas with pics and videos.

backwoods West Virginia. Doesn't fly in civilized parts of the world.

How arrogant. :mad:
You have just clarified all I need to know about your "intelligence". You could have left that sentence out and I would have had no problem with your post. It is very "enlightening" when someone says something like that and shows what they believe about a certain area. When in fact they are so "enlightened" they are ignorant to the truth.




Stewbaru, Please don't take the turn of this post as common place here at CNCzone. As you might expect, there is a vast amount of experienced and inexperienced people here. We all have our own opinions and beliefs. Some are more fervent on corrections than others.

Most often there are very knowledgeable answers here at the zone, so do not hesitate to ask questions. One thing is for sure, there is always a solution to a problem, and that is sometimes where the different experience comes in.

Personally, I tend to agree with the ones that show there work here. There are many fine examples of "out of the box" thinking here and I have learned much from it.

In fact like this one.

Stepper monkey's concerns are Head size and Decel.

Create a mount on the side of the X4 head, use a high speed spindle with linear slides. Drive it with another Axis controller and required servo or stepper. This is no different than a router gantry. That would solve all of the problems with "high speed" 3d machining. This way you still have the high speed spindle, a smoothly operating and much lighter "other z axis" and still retain the rigidity of the heavy mill.

Ok dont even compare a tiag to a x4 that is not fair at all to the tiag that is smaller less rigid slower and not to mention the comparison of mass weight. both can be great machines for what they are used for and lets get this streight I engrave .02 size words on SS at work all the time on a Mazak 410 at super high speeds and I am more then sure it will do way more then any smaller mill considering it holds .0001 all the time. consider all of the facts. you dont compare a car to a bus.

Stepper Monkey, those were really harsh words. I have to agree with cjdavis618..we could've done with out the unnecessary remarks. The discussion/argument was enough to get our attention...but then again, now it gives us an insight of the kind of person you are.

Hoss I want to apologize for what Stepper Monkey said, trying to point out the kind of person you are via insult certainly proved that dumbassitus is a real disease. As I said what he said only served to point out the type of person HE really is.

And anyone with half a brain knows just mentioning a taig and an X4 in the same sentence is in itself a scrimmage...to use a sports vanacular.

"It is better to have people believe your stupid, then to open your mouth and have them remove all doubt"

-Samual Clemons (...Mark Twain, Stepper Monkey. Just in case.)

Hoss we still believe in your experience which is where knowlegde is borne

"Imagination is more important than knowledge"

-Albert Einstein...and to think, Stepper Monkey, old Al here failed math earlier on in his life.(wedge)

I don't think this has anything to do with a Taig being compared to an X4. Thats how the thread started, not what got Hoss's panties in a bunch. RTFA.
The statement that caused all the problem was I simply pointed out that as a concept there are definite valid engineering reasons for smaller machines, and offered to go into depth. That is what isn't being accepted here, (that and mainly someone claiming to have some information Hoss doesn't.) That always puts him into a murderous frenzy, usually followed by another infamous "green-eyed monster" rant about how anyone who disagrees with him is simply jealous of his grand intelligence. It is always easier to reject ideas than try to understand them.

Hoss truly seems to enjoy trying to single-handedly live up to the expected negative stereotypes of the place he lives. There isn't anything wrong with his town, mainly him.
Seriously, political correctness aside, when you live in a small rural West Virginia town, and the townsfolk THERE think you are an ignorant xenophobic obnoxious SOB redneck giving them a bad name, that says something. Just saying.

Since it has been clearly pointed out that that any theory is right out as a form of acceptable discourse, as well as most likely by extension information from anyone who went to college if I remember Hoss's animosities there, bringing the discussion down to his level of easily attacked and unprovable anecdotal evidence simply allows him to mindlessly bash or reject it ad nauseam.
That would go nowhere REAL fast.

So I have a different solution that is win/win.

Hoss can simply believe that I and every engineer who ever designed a system unlike his is a screaming moron with nothing to say, and we will simply happily continue to cut items he can't dream of. For some reason, I have no problem with that solution.

Why is it every time a Taig CNC mill is mentioned, a heated debate manifests itself?

Why are there are thousands of happy Taig customers?

If it did not work as it was intended to, wouldn't there be a entire forum of user complaints?


Jeff Alessi

Stepper Monkey: Again. Is it your own theory or do you have some solid facts on this matter? My own experience tells me that there is nothing a taig can do that our Haas can't do. We have several huge chiron machines too, and they make tiny parts at a daily basis. There might exist small professional machines made for truely detailed work, but the taig is not one of them. We are talking about hobby machines here, so there is no need to take that into consideration.

Jalessi: Is there anything the taig can do, that the X4 can't do? You should see how a discussion involving the X2 turns out. The Taig is not a hated machine at all. I have seen a lot of recommendations for it. And no one here is saying that it's a bad machine. They are just saying that they would say the X4 is better.

Praetor: Stepper Monkey has been on deep water before.

Gentlemen! Please shake hands and refrain from further unpleasantness!

Back to the subject: just how heavy is the Taig head, complete with motor?

Bill

Biggest is best has to be qualified.

The Taig has a spindle sped of 11,000 rpm the X4 3,200 rpm. This will make a big difference if you are using lots of small diameter cutters.

Phil



I agree. Bigger is better is a loaded answer. It all depends on a few things:

1)What you are looking to do with it(size of parts, material being cut, one off parts or production level cutting, etc.....)
2)How much space you have
3)How much you are looking to spend


For me as an example: I make mostly jewerly, smaller parts and the occasional small aluminum part(usually tooling).

For me the taig offers more than enough space. 99% too much. It has adequate speed accuracy etc. It takes up a small space and is easy to work with.



Keep in mind also that when you go "bigger" that usually means everything gets bigger. Tooling, accessories etc. So sometmes even if you get a larger cheaper mill you may get killed on the back end with tooling it up.


If the bigger is better theory was sound we would all be driving big SUV's or even worse tractor trailer trucks.


You neeed to determine what will meet 95% of your needs and begin to narrow down from there.

You're an engineer, honest and for true?:rolleyes:
And I thought you were a geologist/ski racer turned jewelry maker.
Care to share one of your designs that I couldn't dream of?
A pic, a video maybe or just more blah blah blah.
I need to see something visual because as you know,
I'se jest an unedjumacated hillbilly that never gradgiated the 4th grade.
I sho nuff can't reckon else from a high falutin whiz with all them book learnins.:D
Hoss Out.

If the bigger is better theory was sound we would all be driving big SUV's or even worse tractor trailer trucks.


You need to determine what will meet 95% of your needs and begin to narrow down from there.


I guess I am the Evil anti-green giant then. I am of the belief that good tools create good work. When I have a problem that requires a tool, sometimes even one I may only use once. I either buy it or make it. That isn't limited to hand tools and CNC either. That goes with vehicles, tractors, even up to Bull dozers and Ditchwitch diggers. Even though I may never need to build a house, I have to tools to do it and I will not depend on anyone else.

Alot of folks would call me wasteful.... until I have something they need. I prefer to call it "Persistence in capability"

Us redneck, bucktooth southerners learned along time ago that most often, we are on our own to solve problems. So we do it, in the best way that was possible, with as much pride as we care to give.

I'm a person that has a need for all of the tools I have. You won't catch me in a Toyota prius, needing to rent a truck so I can move a large box. In fact, This week, I'm trading in my F150 for an F250 diesel. Just so I can move some metalwork equipment around. With the mindset that I will need the extra towing power to get more (and bigger) equipment home from around the country.

Under-Dog: Only reasong 2 and 3 are valid in this discussion. Everything the taig can do, the X4 can do and then some. (Unless someone can show us that this is in fact wrong).

You have found a machine that fits your work, and thats good. If you have any plan to go further, you should go with the bigger machine so that you wont have to sit and regret buying the smaller machine later on. There is a lot of people here who have had that exact thought.

Bigger machines does not necessarily equal bigger tools. It just gives you the option of using bigger tools.

Stew: I'm sure that I would have chosen the X4, but thats because I see the possibility to work with bigger pieces and taking heavier cuts. But on the other hand there are a lot more taig users out there who have a lot of experience with that machine, so if there is any problem with it, you can most likely find a fix for it too.

So all in all. If you can see that you might want to work with something bigger, and you have the space and money, go with the X4.

Gentleman,

You know the computer manufactures prey on consumers with the promise of future need or instilling fear, they try selling faster machines that have new technology that is not even implemented in real world applications. They make a point to hype "the old slower machine might not be able to run the new game or software." This sales technique keeps consumers in a spending cycle!

No doubt the larger industrial CNC machines that have been mentioned are far superior to the Taig, however there is a big cost differential that might be factor for a home hobbyist.

Sure you can retrofit a old industrial CNC machine with the right tools and knowledge however the little tiny Taig is only $1,500.00 Turn Key ready to run.

If it will make what you need even taking twice as long, why on earth would someone that does not have lots of extra cash spend $5,500.00 on a Syil X4 or more for a "hobby" one time RC model project?

Making one or two parts at home and spending an additional $4,000 ?

Five thousand dollars is a years grocery bill for a lot of families here in the U.S.A.

Are you talking about a business machine where there is a "ROI" return on investment?

If you have a demand for parts on a production level, the requirements are much different. Each machine is expected to make xyz dollars per hour and the biggest baddest mofo is king.

Being green might not be a issue if you have extra money to burn, the little baby Taig consumes 1/10 of the power that a large production machine requires.

The big Industrial machines are extremely capable and far superior to a little baby Taig, no one in there right mind would challenge that.

Some of us would like to save money because its only within our means and still be able to enjoy our hobby.

The saying "there is a lid for every garbage can" has some validity.

Jeff Alessi

Gentleman,

You know the computer manufactures prey on consumers with the promise of future need or instilling fear, they try selling faster machines that have new technology that is not even implemented in real world applications. They make a point to hype "the old slower machine might not be able to run the new game or software." This sales technique keeps consumers in a spending cycle!



There is some truth to this statement. But being in the industry myself, it is more so occurring like you say in the Antivirus and Spyware field than in hardware.

All PCs specs are part of "Moore's law" Meaning that capacity and performance will double every 18 Months. These are not hyped events but things that have taken place on that cycle.

When innovation occurs, something must change. And the trickle down effect is that the developers and hardware people must find new ways to use that innovation. That is marker driven and not fear.

When market "Speculators" say gas is going up on a hunch, then the next day it does based on that Speculators analysis. That is a true case of Fear marketing.

cjdavis618,

Moore's law has nothing to do with selling promises of technology that does not exist yet!

The computer industry has been selling CPU's and video cards for $300.00 to $400.00 for years and years scamming the average user with promises of future benefits.

Are consumers buying into bleeding edge technology, based on Moore's law?

Is a chain saw required to cut paper?

Do you need a 5000 horse power car?

All marketing hype!

Lets all scare someone into spending extra money.


Jeff...

Gentleman,

A lot of the CNCZone members that are Mach3 or EMC2 users recycle very inexpensive computers "$100-300 dollars" to run there CNC machines at home.

Should we suggest they purchase a new $5,000.00 Dynapath control for future benefits?

Jeff...

Moore's law has nothing to do with selling promises of technology that does not exist yet!

Like what?? Moore's law is the theory of timing innovation. It directly affects the technology industry by anticipating performance. No one makes you spend your money on PC parts. No one says you have to play the new hottest games. You can play Pac-man the rest of your life and they won't care.

The computer industry has been selling CPU's and video cards for $300.00 to $400.00 for years and years scamming the average user with promises of future benefits.

That is called a price point as for the price, but name something that is a scam?? I don't see where your coming from. Only those that have to have the latest stuff pay that price. Most consumers wait for 6 months when the price comes down over half and the product "matures".

Are consumers buying into bleeding edge technology, based on Moore's law?

No, they buy that stuff because they want to. No one is "forced" to buy any of this stuff. Most companies still run Windows 2000 because it is reliable and stable. Smart companies are not bleeding edge. Only consumers want the nice bells and whistles. Sounds more like your describing the cell phone market.

Is a chain saw required to cut paper?

Depends on thick the paper is. lol..

Do you need a 5000 horse power car?

No, but I wouldn't mind seeing one.

All marketing hype!

Hence the term "Marketing"!!

Lets all scare someone into spending extra money.

Have you seen the Lysol commercials? ... You know they say they kill 99.9% of germs. And then they show you all the "bugs" that are all over the house. Yet another scare tactic that costs $4 at the store. And might last a month of use.



Chris

Gentleman,

A lot of the CNCZone members that are Mach3 or EMC2 users recycle very inexpensive computers "$100-300 dollars" to run there CNC machines at home.

Should we suggest they purchase a new $5,000.00 Dynapath control for future benefits?

Jeff...



Nope. I use leftover PCs from upgrades. Parts fail, I fix them and use them. I think my PC for cnc station is a 1.2Ghz Athlon from 8 years ago, Works fine with Win2k and Mach3.

Look, the PC market is not out to get anybody.

cjdavis618,

After spending over 25 years in the retail computer world, most of us really know how its marketed.

There is an analogy to what I have stated that you are either clouding or avoiding.

I say black you say white , I concede you are right.

Jeff...

cjdavis618,

After spending over 25 years in the retail computer world, most of us really know how its marketed.

There is an analogy to what I have stated that you are either clouding or avoiding.

I say black you say white , I concede you are right.

Jeff...

Then I guess you and I are on the same level then with our years of service. However, I am not retail. More in the Network Administration and Security side. Not very many years ago you had "a computer guy". That is now a branched out multitude of specialized fields and training paths for each.

So yes I am aware of threat marketing. I get them every day from AV and research companies. But as for Hardware and such, the focus has always been ROI. Unless ROI is guaranteed, there is no sale. That was before I became self employed with my own IT company as well.


As I stated before, we all have different experiences and histories. With that we all have different opinions.

I believe things could be much different with a very minute amount of history changed. Whether for the better or worse, no one will know. Many things I do not agree with within this industry, but it is not solely this industries problem alone. A lot of the problems were brought in from outside, such as Government influence and oversight. As you know many companies that were great have been killed off or swallowed up by other larger ones. This certainly didn't help market innovation.

There are those among us that promise what they can't achieve. And then there are those that can not dream, but can make things happen. This is the world we live in. Sometimes it takes both working together.

Gentleman,

You know the computer manufactures prey on consumers with the promise of future need or instilling fear, they try selling faster machines that have new technology that is not even implemented in real world applications. They make a point to hype "the old slower machine might not be able to run the new game or software." This sales technique keeps consumers in a spending cycle!

No doubt the larger industrial CNC machines that have been mentioned are far superior to the Taig, however there is a big cost differential that might be factor for a home hobbyist.

Sure you can retrofit a old industrial CNC machine with the right tools and knowledge however the little tiny Taig is only $1,500.00 Turn Key ready to run.

If it will make what you need even taking twice as long, why on earth would someone that does not have lots of extra cash spend $5,500.00 on a Syil X4 or more for a "hobby" one time RC model project?

Making one or two parts at home and spending an additional $4,000 ?

Five thousand dollars is a years grocery bill for a lot of families here in the U.S.A.

Are you talking about a business machine where there is a "ROI" return on investment?

If you have a demand for parts on a production level, the requirements are much different. Each machine is expected to make xyz dollars per hour and the biggest baddest mofo is king.

Being green might not be a issue if you have extra money to burn, the little baby Taig consumes 1/10 of the power that a large production machine requires.

The big Industrial machines are extremely capable and far superior to a little baby Taig, no one in there right mind would challenge that.

Some of us would like to save money because its only within our means and still be able to enjoy our hobby.

The saying "there is a lid for every garbage can" has some validity.

Jeff Alessi

Maybe I should get crysis after all. My 2 year old computer will run it just fine. They implement new technology in their machines so that the software developers will start using it in their products. If no one had a machine with such a technology, no one would make software for it.

Why are we talking about retrofitting old industrial cnc machines? The Taig would cost him $4500 (Not sure if its USD or AUD). So the X4 is not that much more expensive. The amount of machine those 1000$ can get you is a great deal.

I bet people spend a lot more money on shopping in the US then on machines.

With the workpiece sizes Stew has mentioned, I would say that the X4 is the best candidate. Stepper Monkey has also reached the same conclusion. This discussion is really about weather you should choose the X4 or the Taig. If the difference in price was bigger, and if there was a size requirement, then the Taig might fit well. The only problem with small machines is that you can not make something larger with it. With a big machine you can in most cases make something small. It might not be the optimal sollution, but it will work.

So go as big as you CAN (as long as you can pay for it, and you have the space) unless you know what you are going to use the machine for, and thats the only thing it will ever be doing. I'm building a lathe with one purpose in mind, but because I know I might make something larger some day, I decided to go a bit larger.

I also have to say that I think this topic is way off. Maybe we should have a topic discussing the different types of machines or just carry on this discussion in a new topic.

Blight,

Who suggested paying $4,500.00 for a Taig?

They are sold new every day on eBay for $1,550.00

They ship Worldwide too.

http://tinyurl.com/63glwe

Is someone perpetuating a scam?


Jeff Alessi

You know, when I first saw that I wondered why it was so high. Toolmach has the X4 listed a bit higher in AUD.

The $4500 total is what stewbaru said his total cost would be for the taig though.

??? Maybe with PC, and who knows what else. ???

The $4,500 is from an Australian retailer. Australian prices on just about everything I have seen (golf clubs, paintball gear, CNC stuff) are outrageous. If this is due to taxes, tariffs, or just plain gouging who knows. In just about every case it is better to buy from the States and have it shipped in.

The CNC Taig setup direct from Taig is in the $2,200 range. Even if shipping/duty, etc... is another $400 that is still $2,600 US, much cheaper than $4,500 AUS.

As for the question at hand, I'll add something else. A CNC X4 would have ball screws as opposed to standard screws and nuts. So it will be smoother, wear a lot better and not have the constant adjustment of backlash nuts to keep any kind of accuracy. Also, standard screws wear more in the middle than at the ends of travel. If he were to do smaller parts most of the time and then run a larger part that would go almost to the ends, the backlash nuts would have to be loosened a bit to reach and prevent binding. I have run into this problem with my Sherline. Just something to think about.

Serge

Serge,

There is no doubt the Syil X4 is built with high end ball screws and is much more stout.

I am not discounting the quality of any of the other machines that have been mentioned.

They are asking $6,450.00 for the Syil X4

http://www.toolmach.com.au/home.php

Still after all is said and done there is a $4,000.00 price differential.

You can replace the Taig lead screws for $24.00 each verses $4,000.00

Thats a lot of banana's.

Jeff...

The statement that caused all the problem was I simply pointed out that as a concept there are definite valid engineering reasons for smaller machines, and offered to go into depth. That is what isn't being accepted here, (that and mainly someone claiming to have some information Hoss doesn't.)

Please, instead of ranting about how your reasoning isn't being accepted, just share what you consider to be the valid engineering reasons. I for one can make no judgment on your reasoning (for or against) until you share it. We might learn something and who knows, we might even be in general agreement.

Alan

Leaving aside all the dirty water, let's leave VMCs that cost more than some peoples' houses out of this. It's like comparing a Ferrari with a Fiat. A lighter car is usually faster and more nimble but the Ferrari has so much more power and refinement the rule doesn't apply.

I've always been under the impression that the rule was more like "use the smallest machine that's big enough for the job" than "bigger is better." Mass is costly but confers a lot of advantages if you pay the price. The high end is quite high when you have servo motors that generate torque measured in pound-feet the way we use ounce-inches :)

Serge,

There is no doubt the Syil X4 is built with high end ball screws and is much more stout.

I am not discounting the quality of any of the other machines that have been mentioned.

They are asking $6,450.00 for the Syil X4

http://www.toolmach.com.au/home.php

Still after all is said and done there is a $4,000.00 price differential.

You can replace the Taig lead screws for $24.00 each verses $4,000.00

Thats a lot of banana's.

Jeff...

I agree with you Jeff. If non production work (prototyping, really small runs) of small/medium sized parts in brass/aluminum/plastic are to be done, the Taig is the most economically sound option. A big savings on the initial purchase, cheaper replacement parts, less electricity used, etc...

It's not just replacing the leadscrews or nuts though. Keeping the nuts properly adjusted can be a PITA. I'm not sure about the Taig, but on the Sherline it certainly is. With ballscrews it's a little grease every 500 hours or so.

So...
In favour of Taig
+ Cheap initial outlay
+ Several CNC configurations available
+ Small footprint, can be put anywhere
+ American made, quality construction
+ Lots of affordable accessories available
+ Cheap replacement parts
+ Easily moved by one person
+ High spindle speeds for engraving or small cutters
+ Tons of internet support and info
+ Low electricity usage

In favour of X4
+ Longer travels
+ More solid, rigid and sturdy
+ Ballscrews
+ Faster rapids
+ Variable speed (No pullies to move)
+ LCD display with coolant and spindle control
+ More spindle HP
+ Limits installed
+ R8 taper
+ Easier/faster lubrication

That's all I can think of but there are probably some things missing.

Serge

Serge,

Well said, your post is eloquent.

I agree with you 100 percent.

Jeff..

Sansbury,

Your analogy is very articulate and refreshing this evening.

Jeff..

just share what you consider to be the valid engineering reasons. I for one can make no judgment on your reasoning (for or against) until you share it. We might learn something and who knows, we might even be in general agreement.

Alan

Thank you. I have no problem at all with spirited discussion, but hastily constructed straw man attacks before I even get to make a point are bothersome. I actually rather welcome dissection of ideas AFTER I have made them...

I stated before I was going to post a number of related engineering points, and perhaps that is an idea for a different thread should the discussion become productive. For now I will touch upon just the one I alluded to earlier and we will see how it goes;

When working with very small tools, a high speed spindle of some form is obviously necessary. I think we can all agree that is a given. With any small machine, whether it is like a Minitech, Roland, Model Master, or similar that have one mounted as stock, or a Taig or similar that can have one mounted on the dovetail in place of the general purpose headstock as opposed to mounted to it, there is one common underlying design consideration - mass reduction. There are reasons some of the small spindles like the NSK micromotors that seem so brutally expensive for thier power output - they are very light for their power output.

With a high speed spindle we have covered speed. That is half of the speed/feed equation. The other half is far more difficult.

Proper feed rate is just as important. I think we can all agree there as well. If you look at any small item with texture or fine sculpted detail, such as is found in cutting molds for jewelry, small model parts, coin stamping dies, sculpted items, etc., you will see that if you trace an imaginary toolpath line over it for even half an inch, there can be areas with as many as 10 or 20 or more elevation changes. At the proper calculated feedrate for the tools this means that the Z head not only has to make a large number of small motions, it has to stop and change direction sometimes at a rate of 10 or 20 direction changes PER SECOND to travel at the right feedrate. Think about that for a bit.
Rapids and top IPM is irrelevant here, as you will never see anything but a few milliseconds of the accel curve before the decel curve has to start. You only get around maybe an average of 50 milliseconds give or take for the whole move before the next one starts the other way. Mass is everything here as oscillating a Z head at 20hz is no mean feat no matter what. Not just getting it going but rapidly stopping it as well. Of course, if the Z head isn't up to moving that fast the other axes will by definition slow down to keep in sync so the cut still continues. This is why a machine capable of much slower rapids can just as easily out cut a machine with much faster rapids sometimes. Their top speeds are irrelevant. Z mass and related moment and G forces are what is the limit. Total machine feed speed here is limited entirely as a function of the Z's rapid movement potential in the first few milliseconds of the accel curve.
At first you would think that this just simply means that a cut would just take much longer on a more massive head, and it would, but what it really means is that as the machine slows down for those movements in high-detail spots feed speed randomly changes in the middle of the cut! If you think thats bad for tool life with larger endmills, try it with little ones. And unfortunately the limit for the whole piece then is the most detailed area of whatever you are cutting. There is no such thing a a dull or loaded tool at these sizes and speeds, just a little >snik< and another $25 mill has it's tiny little tip bouncing across the workpiece the instant it starts to load, heat, or dull. Radically changing your feedrate mid-cut is never a good thing. This is as true in wax as it is steel, lots of snapped tools and possibly ruined cuts either way. If you've ever had a little mill snap and looked at the piece under a loupe or comparator, you'll see it usually tends to go on an elevation change for just this reason. It makes sense to think it snaps on a downward (because of the plunge), but if you look at enough of these failures up close you'll see quite a large number of the failures actually happen while the bit is going UP too, for just this very feed change issue.
A related issue is also the rotating mass. The smallest and shortest screw up to the job is a necessity. Inertial moment of the motor is as well. Now that we have determined the Z should be as light as possible, think about how the infamous 'flywheel effect' (inertial moment) comes into play. If you think adding a handwheel to an axis might be bad, try getting a rotational mass that is a very significant percentage of your driven mass! We tend to ignore this number in most of what we do, but this is why rotor inertia is so clearly listed on any motor manufacturers spec sheets - sometimes it is important and here is one of those cases. Both of these reasons are why even if you could replace the headstock of a larger machine with a light spindle it still would not be optimal at all. The heavier screws and related rotational mass is too high, and even the extra power of larger motors doesn't help here as the rotor inertia tends to increase out of proportion to the power as the motors get over a certain size.

In summation, getting the right feed speed is a headache, and it all comes down to the Z performance. A light Z assembly wins over the same spindle mounted on the side of a heavy headstock assembly every time for this, the only exception being for generally flat cutting like a circuit board or engraving where Z travel speed doesn't matter and a big machine with a side mounted spindle is at least as good as a small one.
Specifically, a machine to do this type of job well has far more than just the spindle needed - it needs screw pitches sizes and lengths, motors, power supplies, carriages and more that are designed differently than a big machine has. Spindles aren't all of it.

------------------------------------------

I thought I might point out that for those of you with big machines who want to cut these types of jobs without losing hundreds of dollars in tooling and many grey hairs per square inch figuring out all of the above, I have a proposal that may get you cutting on par with even the best small machines. Then you likely will truly be able to do everything well with a full sized unit!

Unlike the above data, I have no experience with this, its just an idea so bear with me, but it goes like this;

My idea is that since the Z is the killer here, if you were to simply mount not just a spindle to the side of your Z head, but instead mount one of those cute little lab grade unitized linear stages that come up cheap on Ebay all the time. I have nabbed some that only weigh a couple of pounds, have two or three inches of travel, little ground ballscrews, and even glass encoders and way covers. With that little travel no one ever bids much on them.
If you were to then mount a high-speed spindle to it, lock your regular headstock in place at the right height, and drive the little slide as the Z axis, you may well be golden. If someone tries it let me know. It might work out very well. Thought about trying it a while ago for my X3 but wrote it off for me as pointless as I already have too many small machines that already do that job, but the idea of a true all-purpose machine is pretty intriguing though.

Sorry that was such a long post. It really barely covers even that one concept, especially the related drive aspects, and there is so much more just to that it could fill a book. It fills several textbooks somewhere I'm sure, likely much more clearly written.
I hope I got the basic concept across though, even in a somewhat incomplete sense. A lot more will hopefully just become more apparent to all when this concept is integrated with some of the other basic aspects of design that we are already generally familiar with.

Thanks Stepper Monkey,
Well written, very interesting, and undoubtedly correct.

Stepper Monkey,

I have personally seen what you are talking about.

When doing a detailed rotary job, the Z axis starts bouncing and because of the weight and the lack of rigidity the whole Z axis starts almost a harmonic like vibration or oscillation.

Instead of the Z axis cutting it starts acting like a wood pecker and the cutter gets killed in the process.

You have made a very good point, much better than name calling by the way.

Jeff...

Ummm, Hoss?

Stick to Geology, skiing and jewelry Harry, leave the machining advice
to those of us that are actually experienced professionals with real equipment or
enthusiastic hobbyists that are savvy enough to share their ideas with pics and videos.

I think you have me confused with someone else, I hate being dragged into a rant I'm not involved in.

Thanks for checking out the website though.

Harry,

Someone needs to take the heat, better you than me.

Nice web site by the way.

No hard feeling, I hope.

Jeff...

Gentleman,

Just a little note about eating crow for along time.

Its ruff when you make a post that cant be deleted once someone else "quotes" it.

The saga continues...

Jeff...

Yes, nice theory, have you shown proof?
NO.
You can guess about how a larger machine might work
but that doesn't make it fact.
Have any of you jewelers actually tried using a larger machine to make
your molds?
If you only had an X4, I bet all of you could manage to figure out how to get
them done on it in the same time (plus or minus a few microseconds)
without snapping your bits if you use your equipment properly.
I'm hearing a lot of theories but not actual real world experience on the matter.
The Taig obviously is a good fit with you jewelry guys but there are only a handful
of you here compared with the rest of us that need a mill with some heavier duty capabilities.
As Stewbaru stated in his initial post
I am looking for a 4 axis machine, for working aluminium, and steel to 1/4" with a 1/16" cut.
I don't see why you guys insist on trying to talk a guy into buying a Taig which will not
meet his needs compared to the X4 no matter the number of theories put forth.
Bigger IS better for some things (mills, boobs, paychecks) but not everything (egos, bellies, debts)

Umm, Harry er millingjeweler er stepper, There are plenty of aliases here on the zone,
the anonymity makes it easy. Hoss could just be one of MY alter egos, hmmmm.:)
P.S Jeff, I don't eat crow here in the backwoods, opossum is tastier.

Hoss,

We all agree that a bigger machine is better for many tasks.

Possum may taste better, ask a moderator to check Stepper Monkey and Harryman's IP address.

I believe you might be in for a lifetime ration.

Jeff...

Hoss,

We are talking about alternatives, budgets, sharing ideas and a little drama too.

Stepper Monkey did suggest the X4.

I have suggested larger machines also, however the Taig is a viable small alternative that is being defended because it will do the job even though its small and has limitations.

One of the "Jewelers"

Jeff...

I believe you might be in for a lifetime ration.

Jeff...

Not hardly,
writing styles and personalities come thru no matter which username they logged
in with, it's apparent when you take notice.
Some make it easy by continuing an ongoing conversation as a different user,oops.

It's a fun little mental game to play on here when it's just more of the sameold sameold.
A little Sam Spade.
ooh, found a new alias.
You can trust the upfront ones with websites with 'About Me' pages.
I did logon as hoss this time i hope:)

Hoss,

You have to be kidding, They are both on the Zone right now however they are viewing different threads.

Are you saying that he has gone through all the trouble to log in to the Zone on two separate computers and on two separate threads just to defend a issue with you?

"One of the Jewelers"

Jeff...

"One of the Jewelers" , did I give you a new signature?;)
I've done the same thing. I have 3 computers in front of me,
what's so strange about that?
I might have a ghost on this thread right now.
spooky.:bat:
I could actually be having this conversation with myself, "jeff":D
The things we do to amuse ourselves.
I'm getting bored though, I need to get ahold of Keling about a motor.
Hoss out

Hoss,

I concede and agree your Hoss conspiracy theory must be correct.

"One of The Jewelers"

Jeff...

Boo! Maybe I'm Jeff too....no, wait, still Harry.

Hoss, I don't need an alias, I'm perfectly happy representing myself as myself.

Writing style? I don't know, maybe all of us "book larned" folks just all sound alike. :rolleyes:

Anyway, we've moved from Strawman to Ad Hominem, and that pretty much uses up his entire range of discussion so it should be over soon.
Extending it out to include insulting an entire group would be a new and rather desperate but understandable extension of abusing that last tool. We'll see what comes next.
Hopefully I'm wrong and we can get back to our regularly scheduled discussions, but probably not.

913 posts between the "3" of you and not one pic, video, print, gcode, dxf, or screenset,
Thanks for the contributions fellas, kudos :rolleyes:

Hoss,

What you are implying is very mean spirited to say the least.

You know after you attacked the wrong person a simple sorry would be the right thing to do.

Attacking a group or profession might be taken as discrimination, please don't do that.

We all enjoy helping others.

You are a very talented guy, please dont let your ego get the best of you.

Jeff Alessi

Stepper Monkey,

I think your comments are getting rude.

Please don't start a war.

Jeff Alessi

Jalessi: Could you please use the edit button?

Stepper Monkey: Was that your own theory or do you have some facts to back it up? I might test your theory when I get back from vacation. Do you have any drawings I could work with? Something which might be a challange for a big machine. The machine I'm planning on making it on is a knee mill (tool room machine). So there is even more mass to accelerate. Right now I'm just curious about it, and I can see how you can be right, but my experience with these machines is that when taking cuts, the feed rate is set, and it doesn't just accelerate or decelerate in the middle of a cut. I have never seen that happen. I have done 3D milling before, but it was a fairly large piece, so it might not act the same way on a smaller piece.

Hoss: I don't believe Stepper Monkey has several user names.

For everyone: I'm sure the Taig is a good enough machine, and I don't believe anyone is really against it. It's just that the X4 fits Stew's needs better. Or thats what it sounds like.

Wow theres a lot of people reading this topic. Are there any moderators paying attention?

Hoss, that was high comedy. I couldn't have come up with a funnier response to my last post were I to have written it for you myself. Maybe I'm YOU as well...

I would agree, Jalessi, I was indeed being rude. Perhaps not the most productive thing to do.

Stepper Monkey: Was that your own theory or do you have some facts to back it up? I might test your theory when I get back from vacation. Do you have any drawings I could work with? Something which might be a challange for a big machine. The machine I'm planning on making it on is a knee mill (tool room machine). So there is even more mass to accelerate. Right now I'm just curious about it, and I can see how you can be right, but my experience with these machines is that when taking cuts, the feed rate is set, and it doesn't just accelerate or decelerate in the middle of a cut. I have never seen that happen. I have done 3D milling before, but it was a fairly large piece, so it might not act the same way on a smaller piece.

Blight,
Fact or experience, a little bit of both. As for the facts, there are any number of textbooks that cover that quite well. As for personal experience, I only researched the issue because I was getting just the problems described and didn't know how to solve them, and found the solutions were pretty well defined by others so I tried them out. Since it also worked for me, so I tend to think it is valid as well for that reason.
Ideally feed rate won't ever vary, but it does, and especially with small cuts. It always decelerates and accelerates in the middle of a cut - whenever an axis changes direction! By definition, you are of course never at the programmed feed rate when in an accel or decel curve. With big cuts you only see it at the beginning and end of an axis travel, with short movements thats all you ever get for the most part. No axis ever accelerates and hits even close to its programmed feed rate in a movement only of, say, 50 thousandths unless propelled by explosives! Remember that in that distance it also has to stop and decel just as much, so it is only accelerating a fraction of even that distance. Eventually you will find the limits of the machine you have. Get into texture like celtic knotwork, basket weave, pebble grain, or textile pattern and you will hit it right quick. Just because you programmed a given feed rate in doesn't mean it will always be at that feed rate or even close.
Quick example, you can try setting your feedrate for twice what you normally do and recut the same textured piece. Then cut the feedrate to half of normal and try again. All three will take the same amount of time to finish as the feedrate isn't what matters, you'll never reach it except in rapids. Try tweaking your accel and decel curves even a tiny bit instead and the cut can take half as long or twice as long. What this means in the end is that the actual observed feed rates are radically different from simply adjusting the curves, and the curves are limited mainly by mass, among a number of other smaller things I didn't get into.
You can run programs that monitors actual feedrate in real time, and those numbers jump around a lot, a whole lot usually. They are usually a LOT slower than you'd think on average. PM and I can send some Gcode files your way and maybe a feed monitor, though Mach can be configured to do it as well.

For everyone: I'm sure the Taig is a good enough machine, and I don't believe anyone is really against it. It's just that the X4 fits Stew's needs better. Or thats what it sounds like.

I thought we put that to subject to rest a while ago, when about everyone >including< myself suggested the X4 to Stew as best for him, regardless of Hoss's attempts at later faking quotes from me to the contrary. It is just a red herring, go back and look. Don't encourage him.

It’s not Steppers theory. A guy called Sir Isaac Newton came up with it several centuries ago. It’s called Newton’s laws of motion. Its probably the most relevant half page of simple common sense theory that anybody interested in the design or modification of mechanical devices could ever read and digest. Its simplicity relative to its impact on the modern world is nothing short of staggering.

3D milling requires constant changes in direction, either x, y or z or all three at the same time. Changes in direction involve acceleration or deceleration (that’s the definition of acceleration/deceleration). The larger the mass having its direction changed the greater is the resistance to that change. Detailed 3D milling involves many, many changes in direction in a very, very short distances. This represents high accelerations/decelerations (not necessarily high velocities). Small machines can achieve these high accelerations/decelerations much more easily because of the smaller mass being accelerated/decelerated.

Sorry for the lecture but it really is as fundamental as Newton’s laws of motion.:) Not something easily argued away.

Phil

Stepper Monkey: Was that your own theory or do you have some facts to back it up? I might test your theory when I get back from vacation. Do you have any drawings I could work with? Something which might be a challange for a big machine.

Under-Dog: Only reasong 2 and 3 are valid in this discussion. Everything the taig can do, the X4 can do and then some. (Unless someone can show us that this is in fact wrong).

You have found a machine that fits your work, and thats good. If you have any plan to go further, you should go with the bigger machine so that you wont have to sit and regret buying the smaller machine later on. There is a lot of people here who have had that exact thought.

Bigger machines does not necessarily equal bigger tools. It just gives you the option of using bigger tools.

Stew: I'm sure that I would have chosen the X4, but thats because I see the possibility to work with bigger pieces and taking heavier cuts. But on the other hand there are a lot more taig users out there who have a lot of experience with that machine, so if there is any problem with it, you can most likely find a fix for it too.

So all in all. If you can see that you might want to work with something bigger, and you have the space and money, go with the X4.

I didnt realise I was getting into a mud slinging contest. i should have read deeper first before posting.

However:

If you notice I never slammed the X4 just stated the obvious. Yes if your intent is to make larger things then yes the larger tool is the option.

My point was this and I made itclear:that determination of what you are cutting is the first step.

Everyone gets so defensive on here when someone elses requirements may require a different tool.

And to your point again and mine if you look again. Yes if you are planning to cut something larger in the future go with something suitably sized. This is all relative in itself. For doing jewelry I could have gotten away with a sherline or something similarly as small. I went with the taig for this reason. That I wanted the capability to cut something just a bit bigger if the need came. One has to keep in perspective what exactly the scope of your work will be to properly make a determination.

If you dont you are dealing in absolutes. And in this case, holding to the theory that is being presented here. The X4 is way too small and we are all limiting ourselves with a desktop machine, or even a bridgeport knee mill.
The only way to go in this scenerio is some massive industirial machine the likes of which would be found on an aircraft carrier to make replacement props and such. Some sort of 1,000,000 monster that takes up a whole room.
Not sure if this really exists but it illustrates the point.

With this theory the x4is too small so go with the biggest you can



To my point however. Every machine has a purpose and a niche. For some a smaller machine like the taig is enough or even overkill most of the time. For some it isnt nearly enough.

To the true nature of my origional statement. The taig has done well for me.
Reasonable priced and spaced. Big enough for the occasioonal larger(for me anyway)part. Its accurate for what i do, I have found it easy to use I didnt need a fork lift to get it in cherry picker to get it on the table. It tried and tested and I have always gotten responses to questions or issues.

I know what you all might say: but the x4 this and that you statement is not true. yatta yatta....... However, If you notice my last statement made no mention of the inadequecies of the x4 or any other machine in the known world, it merely presented what I like about the taig. Neither has it compared one to the other.

To you point the a bigger mill doesnt mean you cant use smaller tooling: Of course it doesnt! But the second part of the argument is taht you can cut bigger things with bigger tools. If the decision to buy a bigger mill is for this reason it is something to keep in mind. And there are certain items which will be of a bigger nature by default. No not cutters but : collets? Enclosure all get s a bit bigger.......things of this nature may be. And some smaller acceseories may need to actually be retrofit to fit a larger mill? possibly? as this statement it is educated speculation on my part....
But isnt the point of getting the larger mill to be able to cut bigger parts with bigger tooling making the fact tha smaller tooling will also work an irrelivent statement?


to conclude there is a proper tool for every job or every one. If your needs are different than someoone elses and you made a tool choice based on that need then you did the right thing. Be confident in you decision and try to help others understand what it is you like about it or even hate about it. Help them understand how to make a wise choice not just a "join our club choice".

I guess I am the Evil anti-green giant then. I am of the belief that good tools create good work. When I have a problem that requires a tool, sometimes even one I may only use once. I either buy it or make it. That isn't limited to hand tools and CNC either. That goes with vehicles, tractors, even up to Bull dozers and Ditchwitch diggers. Even though I may never need to build a house, I have to tools to do it and I will not depend on anyone else.

Alot of folks would call me wasteful.... until I have something they need. I prefer to call it "Persistence in capability"

Us redneck, bucktooth southerners learned along time ago that most often, we are on our own to solve problems. So we do it, in the best way that was possible, with as much pride as we care to give.

I'm a person that has a need for all of the tools I have. You won't catch me in a Toyota prius, needing to rent a truck so I can move a large box. In fact, This week, I'm trading in my F150 for an F250 diesel. Just so I can move some metalwork equipment around. With the mindset that I will need the extra towing power to get more (and bigger) equipment home from around the country.

CJ,

Thank you for agreeing with me. That was my point exactly. You have needs that dictate you needing larger equipment, and a larger truck. Whether they are immediate needs or anticipated. I too am the same way but there are limitations. Am I going to buy a full size backhoe because i need to plant one tree in my back yard or remove a rock? No

I neither have the cash flow, the space nor the desire to do something of that nature. You may come back and say: well all you need to do is get a bigger yard and house and a bigger job to support the bigger toy habit and while your at it bigger needs to justify it. As I said not in the cards. Maybe you have some career advice to support this sort of initiative.

But I just replaced my old standard cab dodge with a new pickup to meet a new need. When I bought the dodge it was for doing work around the house and getting me back and forth to work. Thats all it was just me and my wife no dog kids or camper. I now have 2 kids now and a 24 foot trailer camper. My new needs required this: fit 4 people and dog comfortably plus gear and towing a somewhat sizable camper.

The truck I have now would have been over kill 6 years ago and would have sucked more gas----->money out of my pocket and all the extra cab space(there only just in case I might need it need it in my unforseen future) would have merely become a depository for crap and and unecissary an area to keep clean and maintain. Like I said the need changed and so did the tool to fill that need.


I have written another response to someone elses reply and if you notice in that response I made a statement just as I will do here. My origional post had no relation to criticism of buying a larger machine if the need is there. it was a :
1) critique of my experience with the taig
2) Logical advice with regards to how to determine what he needs for a machine.

If you hold true to this theory that you buy a tool even if you need it only once or think you might need it some day. Then you should own a taig too. The taig is designed specifically to work on smaller parts and not larger ones. Then wouldnt this make it a specific tool for a specific task. And the you have the x4 for making bigger parts.

I am sorry I bruised you ego with my origional post.

And sorry for this post but it was necissary as your response was fairly sharp tongued for no reason, yet had literally nothing to do with:

1: the origional post topic
2: the point that was being made in "my" origional response (It was an analogy to demonstrate a point and not an attack on anyone who drives something larger than a prius nor against someone who buys tools to fulfill a need) I could have used the "why use a samurai sword to peel apples when a knife will work.......? analogy to make the same point.


I suppose I just offended all the apple growers and samurais here on CNC zone
"I would like to offer an official apology now to these two cultures, which I both respect and admire"

Hi All,

I am new to the forum, and new to CNC in general.
I am cad based drafting with basic CNC orgrammng skills and I will be setting up a workshop at home. I am looking for a 4 axis machine, for working aluminium, and steel to 1/4" with a 1/16" cut.

Currently in Australia, I reckon I have two choices of Mill:-
1. The Taig - http://www.taig.com.au/index.php?main_page=product_info&products_id=429
2. X4 Plus - http://www.syil.com.au/product_X4Plus.php

It looks like the X4 has more whistles and bells , is this a good thing?

NB: The taig I can get for about $4.5K (5.1K with 4th axis)

Do any of you use either of these?
Which is the better start-up machine, pros - cons?
Any advice you can offer is appreciated....

Thx in adv,

Stew.

Sorry all for the last two posts.

I ranted in such a way to demonstrate a point.

The origional post was a legitimate set of questions:(please read the quote above in case any of us forgot the origional topic)

1)critiques on both machines
2)advice on which machine would work for him

However, people are so wrapped up in thier own egos and proving that they have done things the right way and that they can show the light to those that are "wronge". It seems that anyone doing things another way are not only wrong, but offensive to both thier sense of morals and way of life that they lash out blindly.

What we end up with is a mudslinging match over who does things the right way and the wronge way when it literally has nothing to do with the topic at hand. Does it matter what sort of tools, equipment or TV someone buys for thier own personal needs and desires? No, but I am sure a constructive critique of a particular machine that would be helpful in a decision making process, great, it seems like that would be more productive to what Stew is trying to achieve.

Its actually very funny and After I made my initial post(just read the initial post and answered without reading responses) and then went back and read the rest of the thread I realised I had stuck my finger into a misguided hornets nest. I was really interested to see the sort responses I would dredge up, despite the fact my post in no way made a personal attack on anyone or anything.

Maybe you have some career advice to support this sort of initiative.


Actually I do. It has certainly worked for me. And gains wealth quite well.

1st of all, work hard to earn good money. (I'm sure all of you do!)

2nd, pay cash for as much as you can. With credit, Interest is only interesting to others. ;)

No you didn't bruise my ego either. I'm just stating the code I live by. No harm was done and I took no offense to it. I totally understand where you are coming from. I'm just coming from somewhere else.

What's great is that we live in a country where we can do all of these things. Others here on this board may not be so fortunate.


As for the rest, man what a thread. :rainfro:

It’s not Steppers theory. A guy called Sir Isaac Newton came up with it several centuries ago. It’s called Newton’s laws of motion. Its probably the most relevant half page of simple common sense theory that anybody interested in the design or modification of mechanical devices could ever read and digest. Its simplicity relative to its impact on the modern world is nothing short of staggering.

3D milling requires constant changes in direction, either x, y or z or all three at the same time. Changes in direction involve acceleration or deceleration (that’s the definition of acceleration/deceleration). The larger the mass having its direction changed the greater is the resistance to that change. Detailed 3D milling involves many, many changes in direction in a very, very short distances. This represents high accelerations/decelerations (not necessarily high velocities). Small machines can achieve these high accelerations/decelerations much more easily because of the smaller mass being accelerated/decelerated.

Sorry for the lecture but it really is as fundamental as Newton’s laws of motion.:) Not something easily argued away.

Phil

Newtons laws eh? Show me the numbers supporting his theory. You can't just point to the laws of motion and say it's obvious without anything to support that statement. So go ahed Phil. Crunch some numbers and come back. You will have to include all the variables of the machine in case you forget. Simple isn't it?

I actually found your comment quite condecending. Your point me to Newtons laws and saying it's common sense like I don't even know about it. Now that it seems like you know all about Newtons laws of motion, I guess you will provoid us with the numbers. I will be more then happy to take measurements of our machines, and some other data so that you can get right on it. Deal?

And one last thing on this one. Stepper Monkey was the one giving the lecture. You just repeated it.

I have never seen a surface that requires you to change direction in the z axis every 0.1mm, but then again thats not what I or most people do. As long as an axis is moving in the same direction for every cut, it will continue along it's acceleration curve. If it has to change direction every 0.1mm or less, then it will never reach it's maximum velocity, or never even get close. That means that there will be less energy involved, and less energy to reverse it. This makes it slow, but it will still get there. If you have a very unstable machine, then you might start to see wobble because of resonance or just bad machine construction. The machine I'm going to test this on has box ways, so it should be as stable as it can get. It only has a spindle speed of 6000rpm, but we have an attachmed to get as high as 15000. Not ideal, but my guess is that it should work. I might be proven wrong and thats okey. I don't mind saying that I was wrong.

And again. It might not be the best sollution, but I don't think it's impossible. There are machines for different types of jobs. You are right about that. But saying that it's impossible is just being negative. Actually I know about some really small machines that can do some amazing work that most big machines can't do (not saying all big machines).

I'm wondering why this has even been brought up in this topic to start with. He was comparing the Taig to the X4. I have pointed to even bigger machines and said that they can do it. Why should not the X4 be able to do it? My guess would be that it was just badly constructed if there was something it could not do. I have yet to see something the taig can do that the X4 can't do. I'm suggesting overkill in one direction, while you are suggesting overkill in the other direction. Or underkill if you want. We are scaring people with "it will be too small for everything" and you are saying "it's too big for everything".

What most people make here does not need rapid Z axis movement and truely detailed work. So you can safely point them to the bigger machine (as long as they can afford it and have the space..etc) unless they know exactly what they want. I have said so before in this topic.

I would prefer drawings so that I could cam it myself. The machine I'm talking about has fanuc control and it's a really old one, but it's the most accurate and stable machine I have ever seen. I once read about a guy who achieved +/- 0.001mm flatness of a 350x350 sheet with this type of mill. It has both linear scales on all axis and feedback from the servos. And it is a tool room machine, so it can be used for mold making and other detailed work in really hard materials. I have even milled HSS on the same type (just manual).

Stepper Monkey: I have read several of your posts and I can see that you have a great deal of experience, so don't be offended by what I say. It's just that I trust proven facts more then just user experience. Most of the time people will tell you something they have "proven" wrong when they have only tried it once or maybe not at all.

I also did some searching on the net, and most people who do detailed 3D work are using routers.

I would prefer drawings so that I could cam it myself.

How about a cad file as well as a gcode file? There may be others interested in testing this concept. Attach here unless it's too large. The gcode file would certainly fit in this sites attachment limits. Most cad files should also.

This thread has gone off-topic and ugly. Otoh it brings up some interesting concepts. I'll put my money on a high-end VMC. However this is based more on a hunch than any experience with small scale work.

Actually I do. It has certainly worked for me. And gains wealth quite well.

1st of all, work hard to earn good money. (I'm sure all of you do!)

2nd, pay cash for as much as you can. With credit, Interest is only interesting to others. ;)

No you didn't bruise my ego either. I'm just stating the code I live by. No harm was done and I took no offense to it. I totally understand where you are coming from. I'm just coming from somewhere else.

What's great is that we live in a country where we can do all of these things. Others here on this board may not be so fortunate.


As for the rest, man what a thread. :rainfro:


Good sound advise. Exactly my mantra as well. My credit card actually pays me to have it. I use it only because I get rewards and have never paid a dime of interest. Between me and the wife we get about $600 or so a year in gift card rewards.

As far as working yeah between the main job and freelance: Average about 70 hours a week not counting travel.

And we are not that far off from where we are coming. As I said it is all relative. You are looking at someone who owns 4 sets of basic tools. One for garage, one for the basement shop, one for the camper and one portable one in case i need to take it in the truck.

So we good? No harm no foul

This makes it slow, but it will still get there.
Of course it will, but this ignores the actual primary effect - that you don't get a feed rate compatible with bit life.

"That means that there will be less energy involved, and less energy to reverse it."
Again, not if you are running at the correct speed. Besides, it is irrelevant as this still ignores the primary point that two headstocks of different masses, running at the same speed - whatever the speed - will have the larger mass involving the most energy and therefore be more difficult to change vector.

"you are saying it's too big for everything".
No, I'm saying it's too big for one very, very specific something it was never designed to do. (Then I mentioned an idea that might make it work anyway) This was never an attack on an X4 or any specific machine. It was a requested explanation of one very simple engineering concept as to why it is sometimes advantageous to build machines small for some specific purposes. People take that personally it isn't my fault.

"thats not what I or most people do"
Just because fewer people do it does not invalidate the concept. It's physics, not a popularity contest.

"He was comparing the Taig to the X4"
As it has been pointed out by several people repetitively already, NO, I WASN'T. That topic is long gone, with everyone including myself suggesting the X4. Since you were wondering where this topic came from, it was a response to a very general blanket statement about general machine design. I then replied with a very general answer for those curious about my reasoning. I gave it.

"It's just that I trust proven facts more then just user experience."
Unfortunately you leave no option to communicate ideas at all then. First I avoiding using easily dismissed personal anecdotal evidence and was attacked and the attempt made to invalidate my points simply for instead using solid, basic known general concepts like mass and inertia, things I didn't think were in doubt as "proven facts". It was then demanded that I show experience or I was, I believe the quote was "talking out my ass". I dare to then mention any personal experience and it is now invalidated because I am not using "facts". I think we need to make up our minds here.


Primarily, I thought Philburs statement was brilliant. I wish I could have said as much in so little space. No more really needs to be said. That this isn't enough information by itself for the lightbulb to go on in more peoples heads and for them to be able to then instantly apply it to their own machines and determine its precise relevancy to them shocks and saddens me.
You are obviously a resourceful and curious guy - no offense, but you SHOULD know who Newton was and how to apply his theories and formulae yourself. No "number crunching" is necessary unless you want to do it for yourself. He gave you the formulas to apply to your own experience, they are well known and not in any doubt, and easy to look up if you don't remember them. Go apply them to your own machines and get the precise numbers if you wish to see them.
He just gave you a very powerful tool to test the truth of the statement, now you criticize him for not doing the work for you too? I would much rather be given the tools to apply to any circumstance in life to gain understanding myself whenever and to whatever I needed to apply them than some random numbers without context.
He wasn't intending to be condescending at all I'm sure, and I thought your response was pretty harsh. Think of it this way, which takes more energy to stop, a baseball moving 50mph or a semi doing the same? C'mon, do you really need the numbers to understand that? Stop to think what you would think of a person who told you that they didn't trust you when you told them it was obviously the truck? That it was only your opinion. That without numbers is wasn't a "proven fact" yet? It's the same thing here, exactly actually. Just that concept. He was just trying to help.

How about a cad file as well as a gcode file? There may be others interested in testing this concept. Attach here unless it's too large. The gcode file would certainly fit in this sites attachment limits. Most cad files should also.

What are the limits for attachments here anyway? Cutting with sub-.020 mills can add up to some big g-code files. Get down to .005 mills and the files go over 10 meg pretty easily even for small pieces. It makes sense to just upload the raw files as I never trust using other peoples g-code either - too much chance for incompatibility or something going screwy with the postp translations. What cad formats?

I don't mind giving out as many files as you like, I have years of models for people to try out cutting, but I warn you it will break a lot of very expensive mills at first even just getting the machine tuned for it. Also, since you can readily explode weak power supplies trying cuts like this, unless you are pretty confident of the quality and overhead available on your supply. If its condition is in doubt at all or it is at all close to undersized or hot running, don't try it! Magic smoke can result.

To avoid the pain of paying for a lot of bits I would suggest that a dry run without bits could be done as easily on the same test code, just to see what the feed variances and feed averages really are as that is all that is really important here to collect. That data and the total time to completion of the run would be the real telling numbers, whether or not you were cutting material. That might not be the case with larger tools, but as these tools can only tolerate such insignificant side loading, the cutting loads on the machine are so minute as to be pretty irrelevant and won't likely change observed behavior noticeably when running either with or without a bit. We should log them too, as I really am interested in the data, be interesting to publish.

faking quotes from me to the contrary. It is just a red herring, go back and look.
I did look and noticed that you go back and edit almost all of your posts
even after someone replies to your original post.

This makes it slow, but it will still get there.
Of course it will, but this ignores the actual primary effect - that you don't get a feed rate compatible with bit life.

"That means that there will be less energy involved, and less energy to reverse it."
Again, not if you are running at the correct speed. Besides, it is irrelevant as this still ignores the primary point that two headstocks of different masses, running at the same speed - whatever the speed - will have the larger mass involving the most energy and therefore be more difficult to change vector.

"you are saying it's too big for everything".
No, I'm saying it's too big for one very, very specific something it was never designed to do. (Then I mentioned an idea that might make it work anyway) This was never an attack on an X4 or any specific machine. It was a requested explanation of one very simple engineering concept as to why it is sometimes advantageous to build machines small for some specific purposes. People take that personally it isn't my fault.

"thats not what I or most people do"
Just because fewer people do it does not invalidate the concept. It's physics, not a popularity contest.

"He was comparing the Taig to the X4"
As it has been pointed out by several people repetitively already, NO, I WASN'T. That topic is long gone, with everyone including myself suggesting the X4. Since you were wondering where this topic came from, it was a response to a very general blanket statement about general machine design. I then replied with a very general answer for those curious about my reasoning. I gave it.

"It's just that I trust proven facts more then just user experience."
Unfortunately you leave no option to communicate ideas at all then. First I avoiding using easily dismissed personal anecdotal evidence and was attacked and the attempt made to invalidate my points simply for instead using solid, basic known general concepts like mass and inertia, things I didn't think were in doubt as "proven facts". It was then demanded that I show experience or I was, I believe the quote was "talking out my ass". I dare to then mention any personal experience and it is now invalidated because I am not using "facts". I think we need to make up our minds here.


Primarily, I thought Philburs statement was brilliant. I wish I could have said as much in so little space. No more really needs to be said. That this isn't enough information by itself for the lightbulb to go on in more peoples heads and for them to be able to then instantly apply it to their own machines and determine its precise relevancy to them shocks and saddens me.
You are obviously a resourceful and curious guy - no offense, but you SHOULD know who Newton was and how to apply his theories and formulae yourself. No "number crunching" is necessary unless you want to do it for yourself. He gave you the formulas to apply to your own experience, they are well known and not in any doubt, and easy to look up if you don't remember them. Go apply them to your own machines and get the precise numbers if you wish to see them.
He just gave you a very powerful tool to test the truth of the statement, now you criticize him for not doing the work for you too? I would much rather be given the tools to apply to any circumstance in life to gain understanding myself whenever and to whatever I needed to apply them than some random numbers without context.
He wasn't intending to be condescending at all I'm sure, and I thought your response was pretty harsh. Think of it this way, which takes more energy to stop, a baseball moving 50mph or a semi doing the same? C'mon, do you really need the numbers to understand that? Stop to think what you would think of a person who told you that they didn't trust you when you told them it was obviously the truck? That it was only your opinion. That without numbers is wasn't a "proven fact" yet? It's the same thing here, exactly actually. Just that concept. He was just trying to help.

Again. I did never say it was optimal. It still gets the job done. You stated that it was impossible. It might not be running at the optimal speeds, and feeds, but the job gets done. If you are doing this every day, then of course you will get a machine that fits.

I was over overexagerating. Why even include a discussion involving high speed 3D engraving in a thread like this? Most people dont use it, and so it is not relevant when the person who made this topic never expressed a need for it.

Yes he was (Stew. The one who created this topic).

I never said I dont trust experience at all. Again you are putting words in my mouth. But lets take this to the extreme then. To move a certain amount of mass, you need a certain amount of energy. Increase the energy, and you can accelerate it faster. Right? So if you had motors capable of accelerating the head of those speeds the job demands, then there would not be any problem. Well that is if the mechanical parts can take the stress. Do you know if these big machines have motors and a structure strong enough to do this? Do you have the numbers? Done the math? Nope. You are just guessing.

I know about Newtons laws of motion, but just mentioning them is not an arguement in itself. You have to show WHY it's not possible. Right now you are just speculating over it. Do the numbers, and show me how much deflection there would be at the required speeds, and how big a servo motor would be needed to move the axis at that speed, and what spindle speeds you would need. I can take a look at my mill, and several other mills and say that they can't do it, but when I look at a 4000kg VMC, it get's damn hard to determine weather or not it can do the job. I'm not talking about your machines running Mach or any other hobby type machine. I'm talking about professional machines that are built for quality.

I criticised him for comming in here and throwing such a powerfull tool at me as an arguement in itself when he has not even done the maths. For all he knows, he could be wrong. Have you done the maths? Nope. You have your experience and your so called facts, but I have never seen it applied to CNC machines.

I guess you are some mathematical genious Stepper Monkey when you don't even need to calculate how much stress you can put on a machine. I guess engineers are over-rated then. Why show people facts instead of just telling them what YOU know. I know about Newtons laws, and I can see where you are comming from, but I can also see that you are just throwing it around as if it was a fact by itself. I know that more mass in motion = more energy. But you can make structures big enough to handle that kind of energy, and use motors big enough to produce the energy needed to move the mass.

There is a pretty big difference between a baseball and a truck. Small machines have small motors. Big machines have big motors. Fit a big motor on a small machine, and you can get it to accelerate fast. If you use the same power/head weight ratio on one of those tiny heads, you will have just as bad performance. So if you can fit an even bigger motor on the big head, you can get it to accelerate just as fast as the small one. It takes more energy, but it is not impossible. You stated that Physics make it impossible.. So stop telling me to learn Newtons laws of motion.

I might have been a bit harsh on Phil, and I'm sorry about that. But the way he said it sounded condecending.

I will still want to test your theory on a large CNC mill. Are you still holding on to your theory about it not being possible?

PS. as a little joke. Maybe god can do it?

In reply to your 2nd post:
Step format would do. Or if you have solidworks, or PRO-E, just post it in the standard format.

And again. This is not going to be run on your standard home made CNC machine. I'm going to run it on a high end CNC mill. So my bet is that I won't be seing any magic smoke or hear any complaining from it. When the part is made, I might also get some help to measure it on a Zeiss 3D scanner or a Smartscope just to check at what tolerances I'm working at. Depends on if they have the time in our QC department.

Wont be making it until I'm back at work again. I also have a lot of tasks to get done when I get back, so in about 3 weeks I should have started working on it.

I also took a look at the video Hoss posted where the X4 is doing some 3D milling. It's doing a good enough job.

So we good? No harm no foul

You betcha!! :)

I did look and noticed that you go back and edit almost all of your posts
even after someone replies to your original post.

Please just go away. This is getting childish even for you. Those posts about the X4 weren't edited. People here are smart enough to remember what was originally said anyway, it hasn't changed, and have been pointing out that you were misquoting me on that count since the beginning. You can't even go back and edit things once they are that old anyway. You have already shown us too many of your emotional, integrity and ethical flaws, why are you adding hypocrisy to the mix as well. Get help.

What are the limits for attachments here anyway? Cutting with sub-.020 mills can add up to some big g-code files. Get down to .005 mills and the files go over 10 meg pretty easily even for small pieces. It makes sense to just upload the raw files as I never trust using other peoples g-code either - too much chance for incompatibility or something going screwy with the postp translations.
Zipped up a few megs of text can be attached. If it has to be split into 2 attachments, no problem. The thought was someone participating might like to compare strategy. Since only Blight has stepped forward, no point. He has expressed no interest in the code.


What cad formats?

Whatever you have and someone requests. Easy for me to say from the sidelines ;)

I've got a bas relief of a portrait as both an iges and step both are zipped below the 8MB limit but I still can't get them to upload. Thought it might be interesting as an experiment if anyone wants to try. Less than an inch square with plenty of 3D moves.

this thread is pathetic

Good evening Gentleman

i think he should konw what size better for him use frist,then consider the cost.anyway,i still hope Stewbaru have been find the results and choice syil. expect you can join our X4 Plus famliy.
Syil.China.

Jesus H......

:confused: I would never have dreamed a simple question of a few learned folk would create such a maelstrom of activity.:confused:

To be honest I am only a little more than none the wiser for my query other than this forum is populated by more than a few wankers who have (it seems) no interest other than posting their personal agendas.

This may seem harsh coming from a newbie, sorry, but I've been around the block more than once 'in the real world' too, and have been blown away by the last 8 or so pages.....

As far as my initial post goes, there have been a few salient responses to my queries, but the Minsiter of Finance has stepped in and suggested that I start small, prove the concept and then upgrade as, and when, applicable.

Thanks to those who helped (you can probably work out who you are).

I can only hope further inquiries can stay a little closer to 'on topic' than this one did.

I'm going to have a crack at this hobby anyways, I hope to have something worthwhile to contribute soon.:)

See you'se out there.

BTW Links to $2k Taigs would be more than welcome (I saw one from memory), it WILL cost me $4.5k to land on in my shed here in Perth, WA.

You're not full convinced on the Haas then.;)

Phil:)

Jesus H......

:confused: I would never have dreamed a simple question of a few learned folk would create such a maelstrom of activity.:confused:

To be honest I am only a little more than none the wiser for my query other than this forum is populated by more than a few wankers who have (it seems) no interest other than posting their personal agendas.

This may seem harsh coming from a newbie, sorry, but I've been around the block more than once 'in the real world' too, and have been blown away by the last 8 or so pages.....

As far as my initial post goes, there have been a few salient responses to my queries, but the Minsiter of Finance has stepped in and suggested that I start small, prove the concept and then upgrade as, and when, applicable.

Thanks to those who helped (you can probably work out who you are).

I can only hope further inquiries can stay a little closer to 'on topic' than this one did.

I'm going to have a crack at this hobby anyways, I hope to have something worthwhile to contribute soon.:)

See you'se out there.

BTW Links to $2k Taigs would be more than welcome (I saw one from memory), it WILL cost me $4.5k to land on in my shed here in Perth, WA.

The Little Tiny CNC That Could.


http://tinyurl.com/4vz99r

http://tinyurl.com/48kxzg

http://tinyurl.com/63glwe


Have someone bring it back to OZ in a suitcase.

Jeff Alessi

"One Of The Jewelers"

To be honest I am only a little more than none the wiser for my query other than this forum is populated by more than a few wankers who have (it seems) no interest other than posting their personal agendas.
Err, yeah, and it's not the norm here but happens to often. And the one's behaving worst are often the most valuable members (when they choose to be).
Apologies for my part.


BTW Links to $2k Taigs would be more than welcome (I saw one from memory), it WILL cost me $4.5k to land on in my shed here in Perth, WA.

Jeff linked one at $1550USD. Even crated this thing is probably less than 100lb. How can this cost over $4000 to land in a port city? Currency exchange or customs fees?
If it's the latter, it's time to revolt. Throw some tea in the harbour or something.

If it is the duty / import fees, could they be reduced with legal-but-creative ways? I know some duties are lessened if the product is shipped as a "sample". Perhaps forming a legal entity for the business (e.g. an LLC) would allow you to import as a business - potentially changing/reducing the fees?

One thing is for certain, someone is pretty comfortable with using the copy/paste function. Enough said.