Originally posted back in April asking if anyone was interested in a 6-axis Double Closed Loop Controller (we had been using the system privately since Summer 2007). The response was great!

We have been humbled by the wealth of knowledge and wisdom. "Kind Thanks" to everyone that has made this possible.

Many of you have asked privately when the CNC Brain would be available. So, "Now" is a good answer. :)

www.CNCBrain.com

CNC Brain - $499
- 6 axis Double Closed Loop
- Automatic Error Recovery
- Runs under Windows via USB
- Includes software w/SDK/Source Code

You can see the ad here on CNC Zone.

BC I for one want to commend you on a great new product. I cannot wait to hook mine up and never again have to guess if my machine position is correct. Thanks ahead of time.

Mike

Interesting! Great videos BTW. So would this be a replacement for Mach3 and a breakout board, or would it also replace something like a Gecko drive?

Is this device targeted at the CNC hobbiest? It appears that the benifit is in self correction like with Servo systems. Is the system designed to work with Servos only, or does it also work with Steppers and encoders also?

If someone were to setup a CNC machine(router, mill, plasma, lathe) what do you need for motion control outside of this device? Obviously motors and encoders, power supply, and Im guessing drives such as Gecko.

How easy is the system to configure on a retrofit or new machine?

David

David,
Great questions! And thank you for your kind comments.

The CNC Brain works with steppers and servos (keep in mind it is still in Beta form until everyone agrees on a "production" version ... same hardware, just updated firmware/software).

The Brain dynamically corrects errors as they occur (as you saw in the video, which we had to slow the machine way down so you could hear it, otherwise is reacts so quickly) and is intended to be used by everyone (Hobbyist, OEM, weekend warriors, production shops alike :)

It tends to surprise people when they lean against a machine and the motors tick to compensate for the slightest flex they may be causing. When moving to closed or double closed loop, all that mess with skipping caused by harmonics and lost position just melts away ... THAT is what I like!!!

One of the interesting things the Brain can do is run mixed mode. Any axis can be either Open Loop, Closed Loop, or Double Closed Loop, and stepper or servo, in any combination. This lets you "grow" your machine to where you want it to be ... add as you want ... according to what you have available.

As for what you need, you've got it exactly. The CNC Brain is a motion control system (a super computer in a box). It takes G-Code from the PC, tells the drivers (such as Gecko ... which are great BTW) what to do, and takes input from sensors to correct in near real-time.

As for a "Mach replacement", I don't know if it would be called that. Mach is a good product and everyone is familiar with it (let's be honest, they ARE the market). There was some talk with Brian (a really great guy) at ArtSoft back in March to create a plugin, but that is up to him and his schedule.

The Control Panel GUI (which comes free with the CNC Brain) does come with the source code (yes, the whole program, source files, and project ... written in VB.Net ... even has a diagram in the project to show how the program is put together). It is built in layers that let it be changed very quickly and easily.

The idea is to let anyone create whatever they want with the stability of a dedicated motion control engine, without having to start from scratch.

The SDK simplifies the Brain interface. You say, "move these 6 axis to here", it figures out how to do it. And it can be used on more than just machining: robotics, pick-n-place, machine automation, etc..

As for easy setup, that is the idea (within reason .. darn wires :). Check out the video about the I/O Tab (one of my pet peaves)

One other addictive thing is the Mouse Jog. Toward the end, past editing the "picture" jog buttons ... that Mouse wheel becomes usable!

Again, thanks for the feedback!!! Your questions, comments, and suggestions are always welcome. Any gift of knowledge or wisdom you wish to pass along will be most humbly, and thankfully, accepted.


s/Bruce

brccrb,

All I can say is WOW!

You've been busy. :)

I'm a bit confused by folks asking If it will work with Mach3 or EMC2 (here & in your other thread (http://www.cnczone.com/forums/showthread.php?t=54260) ), why would anyone want 2 controls from 2 seperate companies to work with each other?


.

brccrb,

All I can say is WOW!

You've been busy. :)

I'm a bit confused by folks asking If it will work with Mach3 or EMC2 (here & in your other thread (http://www.cnczone.com/forums/showthread.php?t=54260) ), why would anyone want 2 controls from 2 seperate companies to work with each other?


.

Switcher the main reason would familarity.....ifn I spelled that right! Many, in fact very many people love Mach and the interface it offers and are used to it. That fact alone will cause some to want the interface. On the other hand, CNCBrain is what Mach has been trying to achieve for the past several years. Closed loop, with real world position error correction. It's gonna be great!

Mike

Is there anyone out there who has purchased the cncbrain and has it running yet?
I would be interested in hearing how the set-up & tuning went.

Thanks for any info,
Cutmore

Hi Cutmore,

The CNCBrain only became available late Monday night. I will say that if you haven't watched the videos, do so. They will show you a lot of what you want to know.

Hopefully I get mine ordered today.

Mike

Cutmore,
The CNC Brain was released on evening Monday (June 16th) .. and we started recieving orders two hours later. So soon, there should a lot of feedback!

Remember, it is a Beta (the hardaware won't change, just the software/firmware). And to be very open, it hasn't been tested on every kind of equipment (duh :) ). So over the next month or so, I'm sure it will be "The Great Bug Hunt".

The comforting part is that since the Brain is really 3 layers (GUI, SDK, Hardware ... even the layers are divided into functional layers), finding a bug and fixing it is a lot easier than trying to fix a large monolithic program. There is less of the "fix this, broke that" scenario.

Plus, the bulk of the bugs will probably be in the user interface which is the easiest to fix (and the GUI source code is open so if someone has VB experience, they can debug it themselves ... many eyes make problems small).

Great question!

s/Bruce


Is there anyone out there who has purchased the cncbrain and has it running yet?
I would be interested in hearing how the set-up & tuning went.

Thanks for any info,
Cutmore

I want 3 of them, it's like a great product!

That's the spirit! :)

The website isn't clear on this:

In the upper right hand corner there are two icons: one is for a CNC Brain forum (not to take away from the CNC Zone, as if that were even possible, but intended to be specific to the CNC Brain along with the, "we want this" and "how do you do that" stuff).

The second icon is a shopping cart which is a link into the secure storefront.

s/Bruce

I want 3 of them, it's like a great product!

www.cncbrain.com
the above website is not opening in firefox browser...I want to see that product..some body help me

Khalid,
The website was built with .Net and "in theory" is supposed to work with any browser. With that said, I didn't know there was a FireFox browser problem.

Let me dig mine up and see what is going on.

Are you on Linux or Windows?

s/Bruce

www.cncbrain.com
the above website is not opening in firefox browser...I want to see that product..some body help me

I am using windows XP...I am trying from yesterday morning but still its not opening..I think their is some problem:(..

I really want to see :)

Khalid,
There is a formatting issue with Firefox and Safari. We'll get on that ASAP.

If you aren't seeing the page at all, it might be from the redirect.

www.CNCBrain.com points to www.SafeguardRobotics.com

Try the direct link.

s/Bruce

Khalid,
The website was built with .Net and "in theory" is supposed to work with any browser. With that said, I didn't know there was a FireFox browser problem.

Let me dig mine up and see what is going on.

Are you on Linux or Windows?

s/Bruce

I want 3 of them, it's like a great product!


NOT till I get mine!(nuts)

Paul this is what I mentioned to you in the email the other day!

Mike

Thanks Bruse ...its open up now:)

hmm..its really great software:)...but i am using stepper motors without encoders..:(..Its not for me for the time being...:(

If you have a stepper powered machine, and it stalls or starts losing steps, how do you correct the position, since the stepper has already run out of power?

**Khalid,

First, the CNC Brain can run in three different modes:
1) Open Loop - no sensors
2) Closed Loop - with a sensor on the axis or ball screw for feedback
3) Double-Closed Loop - axis sensor and motor sensor both.

You can mix and match modes on the same machine so it can grow as your machine does.

As for axis sensors, there are several options. I'll try to post to the Safeguard forum this weekend in building a low cost linear scale. And a rotary scale for adding a 4th/5th/6th axis.

**Ger,

The stepper question is a great one! The CNC Brain is always watching the axis comparing theory to reality. It isn't a pulsiting engine, it is a motion control system. It watches everything in parallel. Imagine over 140 MPP processors (non-Von Neumann) doing all the motion control math for every axis, where is it going, and where it has been, nearly every clock ... and most of the MPP do several things at the same time.

In Closed Loop, the Brain becomes aware of a problem as it begins from the axis sensor (for example, with 5 micron scales, it will start preparing for correction, in case an error were to occur, within 10 micron). It then has a host of options (often, it corrects without you even noticing ... ball screw error, belt slippage, etc.), including decelerating the other axis in sync, then reaccelerating after the path is corrected ... automatically.

In Double Closed Loop, there is a pre-error condition. In other words, it compares the postion of the encoder and the position of the motor (with all vibrations and slippage ... steppers are never where they are thought) to get an idea of the strain the motor is under. This let's the Brain decide what is going on and begin correcting before the motor reaches a "breaking point".

The nasties of machining ... harmonics and rough spots ... are always going to occur. For example, the center of your mill has/will have less backlash and can run faster than the outer edges from wear. For fun, check your backlash at different position along the axis. :eek:

**Ger
That also reminds me. Need to post the BitSaver video. In BitSaver mode, if the spindle slows down, the motion control will slow down with it. Saves the bit in many cases. I'm not a good machinist. I **NEED** the machine to make up for my lack of skill.

Great questions!

s/Bruce

If you have a stepper powered machine, and it stalls or starts losing steps, how do you correct the position, since the stepper has already run out of power?

Gerry I have spent a lot of time on the ph with Bruce discussing just this senario, and if you want to see what happens when steppers are used, take a look at the video .....last one posted I think. If the steppers are sized correctly, and using the Brain, they should never stall! That is part of the beauty. If I understood even a little of what Bruce has imparted to me, should the system not be able to keep up for some reason and there is a point of impending failure, the Brain will estop! What's so great about this, is if that happens, you can simply correct the problem, reset and go back to exactly where you were when the problem occured and finish!

Real controller power in an affordable package. This is the thing that the home market of cnc'ers have been waiting on.

BTW when I get my Brain....mmmm..that would be CNCBrain:D I will be able to put it to the ultimate test. An old, limber, rack and pinion, stepper driven machine that can only run my programs at 100ipm due to vibrations. My goal is to see if it will smooth the machine even if I can't get any more speed. The other goal, is to never again have to take measurements if my machine has to be reset for any reason! That might not be important for some, but it takes a lot of time on my part!

Mike

Bruce I will leave for a while now. I didn't see where you had answered Gerry and I knew what we had talked about with my problems on my machine.....and I am excited....I'll go to work now!:D

Mike

I for one would love to see this hardware work with Mach3, Why?

Well first of all im familiar with the software.
It is VERY easy to design your own custom screens.
Brains (the mach3 addon) is a great adition for controling external components.
There is modbus wich is great too.

I really hope you guys can get this to work well with mach, not to take anything away from your software which I can see its great, but right off the bat i can see that it is intended for Mill or router uses, and everything is left out on the open (configuration) for the operator, Bad if it is a production machine and you dont want the operator messing with it. I dont see it being as friendly as to design a screen for another type of aplication.

Other than that I think its an amazing product.

best Regards
Fernando

Fernando,
Well said. Mach is the market. The GUI is a starting platform intended for general use (and SDK working source).

There is a "configuration mode" that can be turned off (menu item) and protected with a password (the idea to protect but not hide the configuration). But it doesn't address the screen design. You have a great point.

In your use, do you setup a screen then use it over and over. Are there fixture changes, tool changes? How do you use the interface? Stand alone machine? Changing machine task? ... if I might humbly ask, borrowing your experience ... teach me, I'll listen.

**
Your comment also brings out another point. CNC was originially designed for repeatability, not prototyping. A machine can make an accurate part by tweaking the G-Code to get it just right. That environment has special needs.

Mass production is an art, not a science. And anything that can help compensate for possible error improves the bottom line.

But now, G-Code is taking on another role (one which wasn't the original intent): Prototyping. Producing a prototype is a challenge unto itself.

A lot of small shop and home CNC'ers want/need one piece of G-Code to produce one part the first time accurately (they don't have the time/resources to "tweak" and make it up in mass production). They'll get around to a half-million parts when their idea is off the ground. Expense and accuracy are paramount.

It is interesting to see how the CNC Brain could be useful in both areas by better position control. Especially at the price point.

Great comment!

s/Bruce

If the steppers are sized correctly, and using the Brain, they should never stall! That is part of the beauty.

Mike,
if the steppers are sized correctly, then you shouldn't need the Brain. :)

I think a lot of people will be under the belief that the Brain will fix their underpowered machines with closed loop. It might save your parts, but it's not a fix for being underpowered.

Can the Control Panel be modified with the free version of Vb.net?

Thanks Bruce,

Well in my case, i use the default screen on mach to control my router. I and only I operate the machine so no need for a custom made screen, i know what buttons work and which dont.

I have another machine which i designed a simple screen for, it is a traveling saw, design to cut off strips of corian, the same cuts on many sheets. (place a sheet, cut a 1" strip, a 7/8" strip, and then cut whatever size to leave the rest of the sheet at 25" wide, mach makes the calculations). it is a simple screen where operator just inputs starting sheet width and just press run, the machine takes care of the rest.

It was a simple screen/wizard that even I could get together in an hour.

I was thinking more for the OEM market. For one, i am in the dilema of building comercial machines (plasma, laser, waterjet, router, we still dont know which to make).

I was kind of leaning to using a custom mach screen for that specific application, either that or using a comercial controller like a burny or something like that. Now that I see your product, it has the best of both worlds. but still laks in the GUI department, as I would not like my machines to have the interfase that comes with the package because many features just dont apply to the process. and i really cant program to save my life so making a new screen is out of the question for now.

Another feature i think you should add, is to be able to sincronize axes, like mach does, letting A axis mimic the X axis for dual side driven machines.

ill let you know if something else comes to mind.

Keep up the good work
Fernando

Mike,
if the steppers are sized correctly, then you shouldn't need the Brain. :)

I think a lot of people will be under the belief that the Brain will fix their underpowered machines with closed loop. It might save your parts, but it's not a fix for being underpowered.


Ok so I haven't gone to the shop yet! Actually I was waiting for Joakim to email me a corrected 4 axis gcode to test and that has just happened, so I don't have long.

To address your sized correctly no need comment, let me ask a question. When you run open loop steppers and you have a power failure......what do you do? I personally have to re-reference my machine then take a chance that my micro switches triggered at the same spot they did the last time, and on my machine, that is truly a shot in the dark. I have a quasi back up, but at best it is barely useable in a situation like a power failure. With the CNCBrain, and using dual loop feedback, power the machine back up, tick the motion and it knows where you are, and where you were. Go back and finish!

You might be able to do that with open loop steppers, but odds are it will not be correct. I will be the first to admit that this is not a subsitute for bad design, and that there is a possibility that someone might get the urge to undersize, but that would not be the fault of the CNCBrain nor it's features. That would be the result of someone not using the gray matter God gave them!:D

Hey Gerry let me ask you a question. You run several big full production machines right? Don't they benefit from feedback and error compensation? What I'm asking is, wouldn't you rather have it than not?:confused:

Mike

**Ger and Mike

1) You and Mike are saying the same thing. You and he are both right (don't let it go to your heads :) ). The CNC Brain can't make a machine more powerful. That is bounded by physics. But, the Brain can take a machine that is questionable and make it reliable (especially in prototyping or unique production). It also lets the "Franken Mills" whose are parts of mixed to push what they have. To the user, it feels like it is fixed because is stopped screwing up the part. :)

2) Free VB.Net. It should (though I've not tested the free version) and that was the hope.

**Fernando
1) See your point. Mach lets you build a custom screen. What if, in the coming months, created a "Wizard" that would let you "draw" your interface? Not programming, just dragging field where you want them.

2) Dual axis ... We can add that. I'll add it to the enhancements list. It was actually part of the original prototype.

**All

Thank you for such amazing comments and questions. Please, keep them coming.

Your SDK does work with the Free version of MS VB.NET 2005, the only problem I found is I can't Debug.

Is the program looking for a machine at startup, If so, can I edit to run without a machine?

Sorry to start on you so early with SDK ?'s :)

-------------------------------------------------------------------------

For everyone that does not work with VB.net, with an SDK this program can be modified to make custom cnc controls, this is HUGE!

Not to mention it's running with VB.net 2005, so as far as I can tell it should work with the Free version of VB.Net 2008.

I havn't tried 2008 (with your SDK), last time I tried the 3.0 framework it was messing with my PC, so I switched back to 2.0.

Also I can't run the program from the Bin file, any ideas?

I really want to see this take off. :)


.

Switcher,
Most excellent! Never too early for the fun stuff!

Did you run the normal program install? It registers the Brain SDK ("SR_CNCBrain.DLL" in the windows/system32 directory ).

This is the COM (Active-X) interface. It is a very thin shell, which basically deals with the USB stuff. Now, we're working on V1.0.5 that will "emulate" a CNC Brain. Originally, it was just to demo the layout.

VB.Net can be painful at times :) First thing, while the project is open and documents closed, "Clean" then "Build".

Each Tab in the program is a "usercontrol". It sometimes has trouble understanding this. So, "Clean/Build" when you open the project, especially before opening the Form1 designer.

The CNC Brain is the "axCNCBrain" object owned by Form1.

The Control Panel was built with Visual Studio 2005 (for exactly the same reason you listed ... .Net 3.0, so it is .Net 2.0). In theory, it should transport.

**Also, feel free to give me a call (that goes anyone that has questions). I'd like to help anyway I can. Number under "contact" on the website. You've made my day!

Also, click the "BrainPanel_Diagram.cd". It is a diagram out how the program was put together. I use it often to remember what is where.

s/Bruce

Your SDK does work with the Free version of MS VB.NET 2005, the only problem I found is I can't Debug.

Is the program looking for a machine at startup, If so, can I edit to run without a machine?

Sorry to start on you so early with SDK ?'s :)

-------------------------------------------------------------------------

For everyone that does not work with VB.net, with an SDK this program can be modified to make custom cnc controls, this is HUGE!

Not to mention it's running with VB.net 2005, so as far as I can tell it should work with the Free version of VB.Net 2008.

I havn't tried 2008 (with your SDK), last time I tried the 3.0 framework it was messing with my PC, so I switched back to 2.0.

Also I can't run the program from the Bin file, any ideas?

I really want to see this take off. :)


.

To address your sized correctly no need comment, let me ask a question. When you run open loop steppers and you have a power failure......what do you do?

Ignoring the fact that I had no power at my house for 4 days last week :( , losing power happens so rarely here that it's not an issue. But if it were, how is the Brain going to help you? Unless it has a battery backup, I can't see how it can keep track of position without power to it.

Bruce?


I personally have to re-reference my machine then take a chance that my micro switches triggered at the same spot they did the last time, and on my machine, that is truly a shot in the dark.

There was a board available that would home the machine using encoders, but due to low demand the website (cncbuildingblocks) recently shut down. Sounds like that would have been a big help to you.




Hey Gerry let me ask you a question. You run several big full production machines right? Don't they benefit from feedback and error compensation?
Mike

Sure, but that's apples and oranges. $100K machines don't run open loop stepper systems. :)




What I'm asking is, wouldn't you rather have it than not?:confused:

Mike

It easily doubles the cost of a good stepper system. I'm sure for some it'll easily pay for itself. And for many others it won't be needed at all.

Sure, but that's apples and oranges. $100K machines don't run open loop stepper systems. :)


That's the point! Even $50,000 cnc machines don't run open loop. Now the small shop doesn't have to run open loop either. That is exactly the purpose for this piece of hardware!

Hey we all know that this is not going to be for everyone. Even now some complain that Mach is not free!:o What it does do though, is give an option not available for less that about $20k new price stuff and that is for a max of a 4 axis unit. Fagor is the least expensive unit I priced years ago and it was $15k for 3 axis way back then.

Mike

Does this mean I can retro fit a servo machine with mach 3 and cnc brain???
If so, ohhh yeahh!

J

I am rebuilding a 5'x10' router table. I have parallel stages on the x axis, a motor on each end of the gantry. I have a limit switch for each motor. I built a circuit to accomodate homing. When the machine homes, the first motor to hit the limit switch holds and waits for the second motor, then both motors back off the switches and are synched.

Would the CNCBrain be able to accomodate this arrangement? If so, I'll buy one.

Cheers,

Dan

**Dan,
Parallel motor operation was part of the originial prototype. We'll put that option back in in the next release (probably next week ... easy add since it was there originally ... just have to dig up the code).

It will use two of the axis to run the dual axis (Such as X and C ... or such).

Didn't realize so many people ran dual axis.

Thanks for the help!

**JNFSWE,
Mach support would be great! Supposed to talk with Brian from ArtSoft next week.

**Ger
When power is off, it doesn't run (duh :) ) But with the Position Reference, you can power on a machine, move the axis back and forth a short distance, and be back of position within a click (5 micron in standard scales).

Position Reference lets you use incremental scales as absolute encoders in recovering position. If you run 4+ axis, setup is made simple (an otherwise tough task since every bit of error is multiplied as it rotates).

**All
The original purpose of G-Code was to create repeatable, mass produced parts... so someone could "tweak" the G-Code until it was accurate, then run a hundred thousand parts. If they spent a week "tweaking", it was worth it since they would make it up in the number of parts being produced.

For many of us, we want to use G-Code for prototyping and producing "one off" items. That is a long way from the original intent.

The CNC Brain was created for three purposes:
-------------------------------------------------
1) To give the "little guy" the power to prototype accurately using G-Code. You can fight with the G-Code and Open Loop (how much time and energy are you wasting?) or go Closed Loop ... hmmm.

2) To retrofit older machines, giving them new life and abilities (without having to buy a new system). Let's see, new machine cost vs adding a CNC Brain ... hmmm.

3) For OEMs to sell machines with the features that before would have been many times the cost. If you could buy a machine for almost the same price closed loop as open loop, which one would you buy? ... hmmm.

**Ger
When power is off, it doesn't run (duh :) ) But with the Position Reference, you can power on a machine, move the axis back and forth a short distance, and be back of position within a click (5 micron in standard scales).

Position Reference lets you use incremental scales as absolute encoders in recovering position. If you run 4+ axis, setup is made simple (an otherwise tough task since every bit of error is multiplied as it rotates).


So for Mikes example, recovering position after a power loss, he'll need to have expensive scales, correct? That's what I was trying to say, that he won't be able to do what he thinks just using standard encoders on the motors or screws.

So for Mikes example, recovering position after a power loss, he'll need to have expensive scales, correct? That's what I was trying to say, that he won't be able to do what he thinks just using standard encoders on the motors or screws.

Hi Gerry,

I don't know how to start this post, so I'll just take a breath and jump in.

I have spent many hrs on the phone with Bruce since he first posted on the Zone way back when! I saw what I believed was a great potential for the small shop or home shop guy to be able to have the same kind of accuracy and repeatability that the guys like you for instance, have access to, on those 100,000 machines. It may or may not be my place to tell you what I know about Bruce, but I will give you a hint. He "ain't" average. Bruce, can I tell em?

The very first ph call I had with Bruce was in fact about the linear scales and the fact that on a machine like mine, they would be at least $20,000! I told him that would immediately put most potential customers out of the picture. He ask me if $75 would be too much to pay for a scale that would give .001" accuracy in about 40"? Well?

I cannot reveal all I know, but I have told Bruce to write an overview just for the Zone here, and get up asap. The reason is to answer questions like you have ask. I actually think you and I think a lot alike!

Yes, this is going to be a little more expensive than a typical build, but not by much. Size the motors right, make sure they are dual ended shafts, get the rotary encoders and make or buy when they become available the inexpensive linear scales and the the CNCBrain. The only real added cost will be the cost of the CNCBrain, and the encloders, and in my humble opinion, a small price to pay for what will be gained.

I used to be an advocate of the opend loop system that was sized right because of the cost and the simplicity. After seeing the amount of $$ that system has cost me in lost time and ruined parts, this step is going to be small change.

Mike

Ger,
Actually, he can, with the Position Reference functionality.

This can be used an absolute encoder! Let me explain:

A single sensor is placed on the axis. Along the axis (at intervals like 0.25", 0.25" + 0.05", 0.25" + 0.1", etc ... or much larger spacing) are magnets (you can use optical other otherwise).

When it passes over three of these references, the position is found through a simple math trick (unique pattern). As his machine is moving, it constantly "re-references" the position.

So, with a couple of magnets and a rotary encoder, he can keep position and recover quickly after power is off.

Now, if you already have or plan to purchase scales with a reference position, then that is fine too ... more accurate ... and no magents to deal with.

There is also another option in creating linear axis encoders:
------------------------------------------------------------
Plastic gear racks, two small gears, and a rotary encoder.

The gear racks (fine tooth, straight, molded plastic, about $2 per foot) are made to fit end-to-end. This makes a linear track (mount under L angle to keep from getting dirty).

A rotary encoder (such as US Digital E2-1000) has a small hollow shaft put through it with a small diamter gear pressed on it. A shaft, with an identical gear slides into the hollow shaft letting the gears sit next to each other. A small spring on the other end makes the assembly a small backlash gear.

The gears, with tension from the spring, ride the track.

It is much more accurate than you first think. It isn't as accurate as glass scales, obviously. But it isn't bad at all.

Here is a picture of a rotary version (for 4th+ axis) to give you an idea ... think of this, just straight (this uses a backlash gear as the rack ... for linear the backlash gear would be on the encoder):


http://www.safeguardrobotics.com/gallery/cncbrain/rotary2.jpg

http://www.safeguardrobotics.com/gallery/cncbrain/rotary.jpg

At 12in, it is within 0.001" on a rotary (which is obviously more delicate than a straight axis).


s/Bruce

So for Mikes example, recovering position after a power loss, he'll need to have expensive scales, correct? That's what I was trying to say, that he won't be able to do what he thinks just using standard encoders on the motors or screws.

What about your CAM post processor? Almost all CAM programs make a post processor for MACH; do you think the BRAIN could use the MACH post processor?

Sandefuj,
Excellent question! Most excellent! Yes, we can. The G-Code was based on the RS274 standard ... when it didn't cover a topic, used the "CNC Machining Handbook" by James Madison from Industrial Press, Inc.

There are features that are unique to the Brain (mainly for use in script), so those are unique.

We've tested the post processor from MadCAM for both the ISO-G and Mach, which both worked fine.

Since the interpreter is open (in the GUI source code), we can tailor it to support multiple formats (which is the intent ... where possible).

If you have a particular post processor you want to use, send us an example.

**Now, we can have some fun with this interpreter a bit (the CNC Brain deals in absolute positions and all the messy motion control math ... so the interpreter just takes G-Code and gives the Brain final positions ... simplifies everything greatly!!!). Nothing is stopping us from taking it to another level.

The only limit is the imagination!

For example, nothing is stopping someone from adding to the interpreter more functionality, such as inserting conditional statements written in basic (or other language) directly into the G-Code itself.

There is nothing stopping us from turning the GUI into a true Kinematic system.

In the CNC Brain, we are adding support for elliptical arcs and eventually b-splines. So, pretty soon you can describe with one line what 10,000 lines of G-Code takes now to do. All of this is available to the interpreter as a "do this" command.

For example (one of my favorites ... it will be apparent the elliptical and b-spline support): http://www.safeguardrobotics.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=8

s/Bruce

What about your CAM post processor? Almost all CAM programs make a post processor for MACH; do you think the BRAIN could use the MACH post processor?

The more i knew the more i amazed:)
I wish to be a beta tester of this software for my new machine:)

3 days ago i can't think we can get a cheap software:)...I always think of Mach3 that ART introduced to us ...He did us a great favour,indeed:)...

Khalid,
Yes, we all owe Art (and Brian who continues his legacy) a big "Thanks". He's a pioneer.

Hopefully, we can continue in Art's spirit of "innovation for the rest of us" in leveling the playing field for everyone to create. That is our whole purpose, the next level.

I want to clear up one point (sorry if I've been vague), the CNC Brain is a hardware device. It come with free software and an SDK. The CNC Brain is alot like a game engine (a physics engine), but for CNC Machines :)

But again, you've said what we all have thought, and said to each other, for so long, "Thanks Art".

s/Bruce

3 days ago i can't think we can get a cheap software:)...I always think of Mach3 that ART introduced to us ...He did us a great favour,indeed:)...

Bruce,

I PM'd a few comments to you earlier that included this question below. I'll post it for others to see, where it should be.

There is one main thing(s) I would like to ask about. There is (so far) no information on how to interface the hardware such as the motor drivers.
The stepper drivers are trivial, no confusion there. However, I intend later to use servos on my hexapod. How does the CNCBrain interface, say with, a Gecko servo controller? In particular, now do we have three servo loops to deal with? What would happen with the F/B from the motor to Gecko with respect to the overall control of an actuator? Would the inner Gecko servo loop "fight" the CNCBrain under some circumstances? How do you tune the CNCBrain servo loop or is it automatic/unnecessary?
Can the CNCBrain interface directly with a servo amplifier or is it strictly step/dir output?
I assume you have heavily based it on FPGA so could the hardware be reconfigured (assuming enough pins) to produce desired control signals?

Very intriguing and unique product, I'm impressed. Looking forward to more from Safeguard Robotics!

Keep up the great work Bruce.

Regards,
Mark

P.S.
Thanks for the Hexapod tute you promised me! Grunt Grunt :cool:

Mark,
Yes, excellent question! Sorry for not being more clear.

And the "Grunt grunt" has me in laughing tears ... whew! ... ok, (for everyone's reference ...http://www.safeguardrobotics.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=8)

OK, the output of the CNC Brain is currently Step/Dir (will be adding more in the future for directly attaching to a servo amp).

The Brain wants, if you have it, the same encoder values that comes from your servo that also goes to your servo driver (the encoder on your servo). It wants to know what the servo is doing.

The Brain doesn't try to fight with the servo controller. It sees the "big picture" while the servo controller is only looking local. So what the Brain does is when it sees a problem beginning, it coordinates all the signals to compensate ... this include accelerating/decelerating as needed ... which in the case of servo controller, lowering/raising the bar of what it needs to meet.

In other words, it tries to work with the servo controller, but can see what might happen and begin correcting the problem across all axis so it doesn't loose position.

For tuning, it just wants a basic premis: Acceleration and Top speed. Think of this as driving someone else's car. It works basically the same as your car, but it behaves a little different (more/less mass, v8, v4, etc. ... like a hint "hey, the clutch sticks"). After that, the processing takes over. In the axis setup tab, there is an option for "Stepper" or "Servo".

Does that make sense? Sometimes I'm standing too close to the chalkboard to see the question.

** Next, yes, you have a good insight. :) Yes, the device can be rewired remotely. But, the MPP Framework ... uh, this is going to be a little odd ... the MPP is what generates the matrix, writes the code, and even generates the netlist to build the PCBs. It can variably span enough silicon to do the job ... yes even the 60+ to process video ... and can process and exchange data between the 140+ processors every clock (yes, I know it typically takes three clocks to exchange data even between two processors, let alone process it, but it is ... unique).

For some quick history, I built my first parallel processing computer in 1983 .. two Motorola 6809E, over clocked at a whopping 0.6Mhz running a hacked version of OS9. Since then, I've done a "few" things with parallel processing.

** The CNC Brain is a sincere creation. The idea is to help everyone with the interface between the virtual world of the computer and the real world.

The CNC Brain has a tough job. It isn't expecting to run on a 20,000lb rigid piece of equipment with 480V servos (that would be SO much easier). It expects to be running on something as small as a desktop mill and try to give it the performance of a high priced machine.

s/Bruce

Bruce,

I PM'd a few comments to you earlier that included this question below. I'll post it for others to see, where it should be.

There is one main thing(s) I would like to ask about. There is (so far) no information on how to interface the hardware such as the motor drivers.
The stepper drivers are trivial, no confusion there. However, I intend later to use servos on my hexapod. How does the CNCBrain interface, say with, a Gecko servo controller? In particular, now do we have three servo loops to deal with? What would happen with the F/B from the motor to Gecko with respect to the overall control of an actuator? Would the inner Gecko servo loop "fight" the CNCBrain under some circumstances? How do you tune the CNCBrain servo loop or is it automatic/unnecessary?
Can the CNCBrain interface directly with a servo amplifier or is it strictly step/dir output?
I assume you have heavily based it on FPGA so could the hardware be reconfigured (assuming enough pins) to produce desired control signals?

Very intriguing and unique product, I'm impressed. Looking forward to more from Safeguard Robotics!

Keep up the great work Bruce.

Regards,
Mark

P.S.
Thanks for the Hexapod tute you promised me! Grunt Grunt :cool:

brccrb,
For example, nothing is stopping someone from adding to the interpreter more functionality, such as inserting conditional statements written in basic (or other language) directly into the G-Code itself.

So I could run statements like (mixed in with my g-code):

FOR
(some code)
ENDFOR

IF
(some code)
ENDIF

If thats the case, looks like your running neck & neck with Siemens 840D, thats a very big deal to me!

Anyone that has never ran Siemens, conditional statements make cnc so much fun. :)

---------------------------------------------------------------------

As far as your SDK goes, I could see a bunch of options for small OEM to write conversational programs, I run one on a 5-axis cnc toolgrinder, from Schutte, It's cool because I can tweak any of the g-code, thanks to Siemens. :)



.

To be filed under (near) future enhancements:

Basic function would be a minor change to the interpreter. Would that be something you would want??

The way the CNC Brain was built makes this sort of thing easy. We can keep it compatible with the current G-Code standards so CAM post-processors aren't a problem.

Also adding elliptical arcs and b-splines. Not sure what G number to give it (suggestions taken). With this, we would be setup to take files, like Rhino, and use the lines as tool paths (in other words, Draw the tool path in Rhino from line segments, the Brain would read the file directly and use it like G-Code).

Thoughts?



So I could run statements like (mixed in with my g-code):

FOR
(some code)
ENDFOR

IF
(some code)
ENDIF

If thats the case, looks like your running neck & neck with Siemens 840D, thats a very big deal to me!

Anyone that has never ran Siemens, conditional statements make cnc so much fun. :)

---------------------------------------------------------------------

As far as your SDK goes, I could see a bunch of options for small OEM to write conversational programs, I run one on a 5-axis cnc toolgrinder, from Schutte, It's cool because I can tweak any of the g-code, thanks to Siemens. :)



.

To be filed under (near) future enhancements:

Basic function would be a minor change to the interpreter. Would that be something you would want??

That's something I would like to see. :D







The way the CNC Brain was built makes this sort of thing easy. We can keep it compatible with the current G-Code standards so CAM post-processors aren't a problem.

Also adding elliptical arcs and b-splines. Not sure what G number to give it (suggestions taken). With this, we would be setup to take files, like Rhino, and use the lines as tool paths (in other words, Draw the tool path in Rhino from line segments, the Brain would read the file directly and use it like G-Code).

Thoughts?


Sounds like that would work for engraving or plasma, I'm not sure how you would handle tool offsets for a mill.

Also, I joined your forum. :cheers:


.

OK, on the short list of enhancements.

And you're right, reading a Rhino file would be great for engraving work. Didn't think about that! What a great idea!

The tool lengths would be handled by the Control Panel. In Rhino, they could "draw" their tool to help setup a path ... need to add that to the forum notes.

Excellent comments and questions!!

That's something I would like to see. :D



Sounds like that would work for engraving or plasma, I'm not sure how you would handle tool offsets for a mill.

Also, I joined your forum. :cheers:


.

Thought I would include this, as we've gotten some questions about it.

The CNC Brain is a motion control processor. In other words, it takes G-Code and information from sensors on your machine, and sends control signals to your motors.

It can give new life to an old machine, and push it to its physical limits. It can be used to improve accuracy so prototypes comes out right the first time.

http://www.safeguardrobotics.com/gallery/cncbrain/diagram2.PNG

just to make sure, you still need drivers for the motors?

Correct. It doesn't handle power. It thinks :) ... around 7 billion instructions per second.

The PC does very little processing compared to the CNC Brain. The Brain takes the intepreted G-Code and controls the machine.

Because of this, you can run a bunch of machines from one PC. Each is independent and can be of mixed types (for example, you can run several lathes, several milling machines, and a mixture of other stuff from one PC).

Thanks for helping clarify that.

just to make sure, you still need drivers for the motors?

Hi brccrb

Sorry if this has already been stated, I have read the post and had a quick look through your website but couldn't find a statement something like

"The CNCBrain has a built in signal generator to provide the step signals to the step drives".

I'm sure it does since you state a 500MHz output frequency on each channel.

Am I correct in assuming (since I don't know for sure) the CNCBrain generates clean crisp signals for step inputs to the drives?

BTW I am F.impressed that you are even thinking about producing an efficient method of executing the toolpath for a b-spline. Very cool, verging on ubernerdy. I love it!


Cheers

Derek

Bruce,

Thanks for clarifying all that with the servo operation. You said what I was hoping for with respect to the hardware flexibility. Nice, I like it even more now!
One of the reasons I mentioned the driver hardware is that it would of course cut cost for the CNCer to just plug in a dumb amplifier without spending money on a servo controller. On the other hand it may function better with a servo controller and may be worth it.
To change your analogy slightly, it's a bit like the driver (CNCBrain) driving a car with ABS (servo controller) compared to standard brakes (amplifier).
Does that sound sorta right?

You kinda lost me with the MPP framework detail but I think I get the gist.
The details are beyond me but my guess is that there's probably a Kalman filter implemented in the hardware somewhere. Amazing. :rainfro:
To put it another way; "I dunno know how yuz dunnit but I know yuz dunnit!"

Now if only I had the money on me to get one now.:violin:

On a side note, well done on the parallel processor you designed in 1993(?). You're my kinda geek. :cheers: I've always been a fan of PP since I read about the Transputer back in the old days. Remember them? It had a low level assembly language like Pascal. Amiga was going to bring out a super 4 processor beast based on them, which never eventuated of course. Not enough power? Simply add an expansion board with another 4. Yeah baby!!:banana:

Regards,

Mark

since it gets info from linear scales is there a problem with surging and is the a max and min resolution for the scales?

Bruce,

Can you clarify how the physical wiring is setup between an existing closed loop servo system and the Brain?

I have Rutex servo drives, they could be Gecko servos though. There is a closed loop between the encoder on the back of the motor and the servo drive. I am using differential encoders. How do you wire the CNC Brain into the existing system? The encoder on the motor is already going back to the servo drive. The servo motor will go crazy if you disconnect the encoder from the drive. Do we split the signal between the motor and Brain/servo drive? Wouldn't the signal be too weak for both servo drive and Brain if it's split? I'm not getting this part of it...

Cheers,

Dan

Great questions all!

**Derek
You bring out an excellent point! The CNC Brain is more than a pulsiting engine. To answer your question, yes it does generate clean crisp pulses for your motor drivers.

The 500kHz is a "safe" range in running a machine (it can run much faster, but most controllers can't even reach the low range), across all six axis, in double closed loop mode (it can generate a signals for all six axis to nearly 25MHz).

You see, a pulsiting engine uses the PC to do the math and hand out "pulse this fast for this many steps from the PC". But when something goes awry, it has to run home and ask what to do. In that time, well, its been over for a while.

The Brain gets, "move all these axis to here, best of luck" :) . The Brain does the motion control math itself and manages everything in real time. And for the real trick, corrects everything as it runs!

To do that, the Brain keeps track of the theory, the reality, and a plan of action across all axis ... which is changed nearly every clock tick!

"ubernerdy" ... Ha! ... you crazy guy :)

**the4thseal
There isn't really a min or max, but a limit of +/- 8 million steps. As for surges, that needs to be divided into three categories:

1) High speed motion: The Brain will outrun what a 3ft wire can deliver. Most scales max at about 40in/sec. The max encoder input speed is around 3MHz (every input is statistically filtered for noise) which is about 615in/sec with a 5 micron scale.
2) Encoder fault: The Brain actually is watching for the encoder to have a problem and can identify a bad pattern. It is a rare occasion, but it is "possible".
3) Extreme vibration: Now, this only happens under rare conditions and usually when you have a very loose axis (wiggle isn't the word for it) and a high speed spindle biting off more than it can chew. It is usually caught by #2 within a fraction of a microsecond. The position reference is there to catch this rare occurance in this extreme condition.


Great question! Had to drag out the calculator for that one :)

**Dan,
I like your questions, you always have the right answer. :) Yes, you would split the path. The Brain input takes very little power to drive (input is logic level drawing almost no power).

For wiring:

Open Loop:
-Brain to Servo/Stepper driver: step and direction

Closed Loop:
-same as open loop, plus AB signals from axis encoder (glass scales, rotary encoder, rack/rotary encoder, or etc.)

Double Close Loop:
-same as closed loop, plus AB signals from motor encoder (Y'd if servo).

The CNC Brain does supply 5VDC to run the encoders (saves wiring a 5V power supply).

Also on wiring, the CNC Brain adds pull-up resistors to the limit switch inputs. This saves additional wiring. You just need wire and switches (no resistors or power).

**All,
Fantastic questions! Keep them coming!

Mark,
OK, now you're talking! The first was in 1983 (eighty three ... I was all of 13 at the time ... grew up in the middle of nowhere and you can only hike through the woods so much :idea: ). A kitchen table, two Tandy CoCos, a huge ratsnest of wires, with OS9 in an assembler. Hey they could be over clocked to 0.6MHz each, and with two, that was over a MHz! That setup did voice recognition, voice synthesis, digitizing tablet CAD, video capture (256 pixels across), and a bunch of robotics. Did my first genetic algorithm on that thing.

I still love the Amiga. Occasionally, Microsoft and Apple will drag out their vintage machine to find one of their new features :)

And anyone who mentions the word "transputer" has made a friend for life :) The 1024 matrix was fantastic ... the only problem is they borrowed to much from the Von Neumann and Harvard architectures.

OK, sorry everyone. Went TOTAL nerd there (wrong). I'm SORRY (don't beat me up (chair) ) Its just, the Brain and the MPP were once only a dream to build ... took decades to realize.

BTW, Your new analogy works for me!

As for money, the Brain is a great bargain (most closed loop systems don't have what it has and cost over $20k). And for those not familiar with open vs closed loop, its worth the price (1/40th the price :wee:)

s/Bruce

Sounds good to me. I'm buying one.

Thanks for all the info Bruce.

Cheers,

Dan

How about S-curve acceleration, like Mach's Quantum has? :) What about Constant Velocity mode? Does the g-code interpreter support G41/G42 cutter comp?

I can’t believe it, this controller sounds like what I have forever been waiting for. It has got me really excited :D well done Bruce.

Will it be able to run +-10volt servo drives in the near future? I find this feature very important as I will be wanting to run my machine with analogue drives. I think adding this feature will open up much more market; industrial analogue drives are readily available and it would also enable you to retrofit old machines.

How is the spindle treated? Will we be able to have it controlled like a servo such as a lathe spindle; with fast turning operations and slow indexing functions for milling with live tooling? And also rigid tapping while milling.

It’s all very exciting!!!

Dave

Mark,
As for money, the Brain is a great bargain (most closed loop systems don't have what it has and cost over $20k). And for those not familiar with open vs closed loop, its worth the price (1/40th the price :wee:)

s/Bruce

You are giving a tough time to other manufacturers (your competitors):)...Thanks from all of us..
Now, if u tell us:)

1) Do we need controller cards to run Steppers/servos ? or the brain's hardware can do all the work for us??

2) Do you plan any sort of competition as Gecko and Joe's did for their product name and logo..any sort of it, so that we all participate and we can win one of your CNCbrain with hardware..

Ger,
Cool. Was hoping we would get to this :)

The CNC Brain currently uses linear acceleration ... but, internally, all the support is there for polynomial acceleration descriptors (just want to get through the different equipment types before we go there ... currently, the exponents are set to zero).

Now, under double closed loop, it can do something really neat that an equation just can't do: it can shift the acceration curve from real world information.

As we get everyone's equipment setup and smooth out any bugs, we'll start turning on more features.

The G41/G42 will be in the next version (hopefully next week). Along with the X/Y axis mirror.

There are three motion modes:
1) Exact Stop - we all know this one
2) Grouped velocity - it groups sets of motions into one smooth flow ... so all those little instructions get made into one smooth motion.
3) Continuous flow - When we are done with the Beta this will get turned back on ... the Brain dynamically calculates the backlash of a system and when it approaches a direction change, it begins changing direction before it gets there. Let's stick with baby steps for now :)

Again, great questions!

How about S-curve acceleration, like Mach's Quantum has? :) What about Constant Velocity mode? Does the g-code interpreter support G41/G42 cutter comp?

**Khalid,
Thank you! Without competition, things would stagnate and become bloated (... like certain PC operating systems :) ).

The CNC Brain plugs in your USB port. Seemed like the best fit. We have prototypes for Ethernet and WiFi, but not till the end of the year ... baby steps.

Competition ... hmm ... great idea. Will mull that one over.

**tdpyro
Thank you for the very kind comments. The Brain was born out of one of those "angry moments" in machining ... everyone knows that moment ... duck!

Currently, it is step/dir, but there is no reason not to add PWM. Your comments are in line with several other. Its on the list.

The spindle can be driven (by script any way you want) either PWM or Step/Dir. Now, in BitSaver mode, if the spindle slows down, the motion is scaled to the speed (appropriate name in my case ... terrible machinist).

Now, this is basically the same logic used for rigid tapping, threading, etc.. It isn't a big leap to support this and is already on the list. Between you and another gentleman (who politely grabbed me by the eyelids and showed me it was basically there ... gently), my eyes have been opened :eek:

2) Grouped velocity - it groups sets of motions into one smooth flow ... so all those little instructions get made into one smooth motion.


How do you define the group?

What I'd like to see is for all moves that are tangent to the previous move, you get a constant velocity, and only use exact stop for non tangent corners. Since I always use G41/G42, which automatically uses a radius toolpath to do outside sharp corners, the only time it would need to use exact stop would be sharp inside corners. It may have to slow down a bit in the outside corners, but wouldn't need to completely stop.

And as for G41/G42, hopefully it'll be like Mach3's advanced mode, which lets you cut inside corners without gouging.

However, if you can get a mach3 plugin working, it'll be using mach3's comp code, right?

I'm hoping you can get the plugin to work, as I think that will make the Brain a lot more popular, due to the large number of mach users.
But it appears that you've basically written an entire software control in a matter of months that took Art years to do. How long until the Brain control softwares feature set is on par with mach3's?

Ger,
Yes, you've got it exactly. The grouping based on the relative ability of any axis in the group to complete the move. So, for something simple like a curve, the quadrants are the breaks for groups. Now, for other types, it takes the angle into consideration. Often, CAM will take what appears to be a straight line and make it segmented with tiny shifts. The angle is also a consideration along with the speed.

OK, gotcha. The interpreter will be handing the G41/G42, so this will give us an ability to change it as we like. I'll follow your lead on this since you use it more than I do.

Mach support will open the market ... they ARE the market! Looking forward with speaking with Brian (he really wants everyone to have the tools of the big guys ... have nothing but good things to say about him).

The Control Panel wasn't intended as a replacement, more a learning tool and a way of saving some money on the setup. And a way of creating custom software ... they can even use the Control Panel as a starting point, and sell their own version (for use with the Brain).

So many people here know so many things that everyone needs, why stop them from creating a new solution without reinventing the wheel? (And make a profit from it :) )

As for the Control Panel, I'm a nerd ... with decades of libraries to draw from. The changes requested so far take more time to test than to code.

I used to develop software for large entities (governments, Fortune 500) with some teams being as large as 130 all in parallel. Everything is about layers, so that is why it is put together the way it is.

As other people makes changes to the software privately, their code can be incorporated without effecting stability. When layered, a group can code at once and the effect is AMAZING!

s/Bruce

Just placed my order. Anyone out there have one hooked up and running yet?

Cheers,

Dan

Dan,
Thank you for the order. During the Beta phase, you'll find my personal cell number in the box. If you have any questions, call me day or night. We'll walk through the installation together.

We released on Monday ... the response has been amazing!

Units are in boxes and floating their way to customers. Another batch goes out today.

s/Bruce

Just placed my order. Anyone out there have one hooked up and running yet?

Cheers,

Dan

For a dual closed loop system, is there any requirement for your rotary motor encoder to have a higher resolution then the linear encoder?

Dave

OK, let me take the questions in an opposite direction: that of a noob.

I am building a machine for musical instruments (as many have done). Everything I know about machining, cnc, tool design, etc., has come from this website and nowhere else. I am not an engineer or professional machinist. I am a woodworker looking for a new tool. (OK, I also have a background in CAD and computers, but for the purposes of this post let's assume I know nothing other than woodworking).

So, how about going over some basic information. To do my cnc'ing with the BRAIN I still need:

1) A CAD program like Rhino or SolidWorks to design the part I want to carve.

2) A CAM program like MadCAM or Sheetcam to lay out the tool paths and generate G code.

3) THE BRAIN REPLACES Mach3 (if you want. Otherwise it works WITH Mach3??) The software side of the brain takes the file generated by the CAM software and generates a signal to the USB port. Right?

4) Connected by USB is the hardware side of the Brain. This interprets the USB signal and translates it to a parallel port signal for your stepper drivers (let's just talk about steppers, since that is what noobs use)? You still need stepper drivers from Xylotex, Probotix, Keling, HobbyCNC, etc. Right?

If you were not using the BRAIN, you would just have Mach3 speak directly through a parallel port to the stepper drivers.

5) The stepper drivers still turn your actual motors that move the spindle across your work.

6) Linear scales and rotary encoders then send a signal BACK to the BRAIN telling it where the spindle ACTUALLY is. The brain then adjusts the signal to the controllers to compensate for any difference between where the spindle was told to go and where it actually went. Right?

OK, so:

a) WHAT ARE LINEAR SCALES? Rotary encoders?

b) Do they come with the BRAIN, or are they extra? Where does one get them? How much do they cost?

c) How are they attached to the machine/motors? Do I need extra clearance in my design? How are they wired? Do they come plug and play, or do you need to splice connectors on? Where do you get the connectors? How are they calibrated?

d) Does this system replace the need for limit and home switches (I hope so, because the amount of loose wiring from all these switches is making me twitchy)?

Finally, are you considering selling a package that includes stepper controllers, motors AND the brain? Perhaps you can bundle something with the people at Probotix or Keling (cross marketing is all the rage ;) )

**tdpyro
No requirement. But, the more the better :)

Great question!

**rlrhett

You are no noob! You hit the questions on the mark. And the Brain likes steppers or servos.

1-6, yes. You've got it.

On #2, will be adding to the Control Panel the ability to take lines (such as a curve in Rhino) as tool paths directly (have that code in another piece of software). For example, in Rhino, you would use a "drawn" bit to define offsets for curves. The curves would be used as the tool path and read directly. If you are engraving or cutting sheet material, could save you a CAM package purchase ... which dwarfs the Brain price.

On #3, Mach currently doesn't support the Brain, but we hope to talk with Brian soon.

Linear scales, like Accurite glass scales (depends on length). Rotary encoders (~$50), such as those made by US Digital.

They do not come with the Brain. Check out the vendors mentioned above.

The glass scales tend to be more pricey, but you can make a much lower cost version with a rotary encoder.

Most linear encoders have the option for a DB9 plug, which plugs directly into the Brain. The rotary use header pins and your wires ... reminds me to post the video about wiring the DB9 connectors with parts from Radio Shack.

If you use scales, or the position reference tricks, you could drop the limit switches. Check out the "position reference tab" in the gallery on the website ... back to original within 5 micron in a few seconds :)

We haven't gotten to a bundle yet. What a great idea! :idea: Need to speak with vendors about options.

Great questions, all!

brccrb,

Will the SDK be updated with any/all new items that are on the wishlist, as they become available?

---------------------------------------------------

I kinda thought since that first mention of Mach3 in this thread, that it would confuse folks, I like Mach3 as much as the next guy, everyone knows it's great.

Isn't the whole point of CncBrain/SDK, to be a standalone "Cnc Control"?

I'll tell you now, it's the SDK thats got me interested in your product, & I really don't think everyone understands the power of having that SDK can give them.

With an open SDK, more good things can happen (for everyone)! :)



.

As some one who has used the higher end commercial systems, I am trying to assess how this fits in exactly, I see from your block diagram the Brain takes the G code in order to process it on the servo/CNC side.
How is the PLC/PMC (M)achine code etc implemented?, is it still up to the front end software to provide the PMC logic? How much I/O is provided for or limited to?
As someone has mentioned, I see a big advantage to offering analog drive signal.
I apologize if the questions appear redundant.
Al.



Thought I would include this, as we've gotten some questions about it.

The CNC Brain is a motion control processor. In other words, it takes G-Code and information from sensors on your machine, and sends control signals to your motors.

It can give new life to an old machine, and push it to its physical limits. It can be used to improve accuracy so prototypes comes out right the first time.

Switcher the main reason would familarity.....ifn I spelled that right!


Mike,

It's familiarity. :D

Just wanted to post a screenshot of the CncBrain SDK, running in the Free version of MS VB.NET 2005.

You can see that it's actually running inside VB.Net from the window behind the "Brain Control Panel" (BrainPanel (Running)).

VERY COOL! :)

-------------------------------------------------------

Now, we're working on V1.0.5 that will "emulate" a CNC Brain.

Can't wait for V1.0.5, I should be able to process g-code from that SDK version, without an actual machine hooked up, is that correct?


.

Very cool indeed Switcher buddy. :D

More screenshots. :D

I wanted to show how easy it would be for anyone to edit the "Control Panel".

The 1st screnshot is from the original SDK, the 2nd screenshot is something I did just playing around with the SDK, what I did isn't that big a deal as far as code goes, my point is that you can have a custom cnc control that is specific to your machine, design it the way you want!

I added 2 buttons (2nd screenshot) Button1="Hide", Button2="Visible". It hides a portion of the screen, this could have been done in the "Main Menu", or a "Context Menu" (Right click menu), I did the 2 buttons just for the screenshots. I also changed the color of the Background on the Form1, this could have been a Bitmap image, it takes more work to create a bitmap image than it does to add the image to the SDK (VB.net 2005).

Again no big deal as far as my code goes, & I didn't need to mess with any of the original SDK code, so it's still their If I needed it for anything in the future, all the hard work has been done already by "brccrb".

I did this example because someone brought up the point "what If employees start messing with machine config." password protect, free up more Real Estate, it's up to you! :)



.

I have some questions, the answers to which I was not able to find on your website.

1. Are cycle-start, feed-hold, and e-stop wired directly to the brain or communicated though the PC?

2. Does feed-hold trigger an immediate controlled stop within a path segment or does it finish that segment?

3. Differential or single ended encoder inputs?

4. Is homing to an encoder index or to a limit switch?

5. Is the trajectory planner capable of switching between exact stop and continuous mode?

Doug

Switcher,
Yes, features will be added to the SDK/Control Panel (with source) as we go along. And yes, the Control/Brain is a standalone CNC Controller. On the money as usual. :)

And Kudos on the VB mod! Ubercool!

-------------------------------------------------------------------
The Brain is a CNC Controller, but as you realized, it is more than that.
-------------------------------------------------------------------

As for the SDK aspect, you get it. Now, at some point the factory automation guys are going to start thinking, "Wait, I can add a motion control processor to a machine for how much?" (those using some electrical control).

Think about it, if you are a small shop and want to automate a process like the big guys, visit 80/20, grab some motors, and a Brain ... you have the start of your own factory! :idea:

With the SDK you can skip the whole PLC thing with code written in the language of YOUR choice, even VB.

Imagine, automation via VB (and one PC can run a bunch of Brains). Just tell the Brain the end points (the Brain handles the accel/decel and other messes ... and runs open/closed/mixed loop). :banana:

This is the idea: You can run your machining stations (controlled by a CNC Brain ... new life for those older machines), with a robotic loader (80/20 style controlled by a CNC Brain), handed off to some other assembly machine (80/20 style controlled by a CNC Brain), etc.. Which can be done as simply as 1PC with code written in VB.

Why should a small shop not have inexpensive factory automation available to them?

s/Bruce

**Switcher,
You've got me grinning ear to ear. Excellent!

And not a bad idea. Been thinking where to put a "draw window". Could use the config to turn off some tabs. Great Idea!

**Al,
Great questions! Definitely not redundant.

The PLC would be interfaced by the PC ... but, there may be some options here. Let me think on that.

There are 18 unused I/O pins on the front of the Brain. Adding to the SDK to access those unused pins at will.

On the encoder breakout board, there are 18 more unused pins (the Brain Board and the Encoder Board are connected by a Hirose 100 pin connector. It has two ground pins, two 5VDC pins, and 96 I/O pins). And on the Brain board itself, there are another 20 that can be tapped.

That gives us a total of 56 pins for future use.

**Doug,
Excellent points!

The cycle start/hold is PC. The E-Stop has hardware and software support. Cycle/hold should have a hardware option ... fantastic idea!

The Stop can issue for the current segment. The Pause at the end of a motion.

Encoders: Digital, AB encoding, single ended. All inputs are heavily filtered for noise.

Homing is controlled by the Position Reference. The "goal" is to not have to use a "home switch" and have the machine, even open loop, re-home as it machines.

The Exact Stop/Grouped Velocity is set in the General Tab. There isn't any reason why we couldn't make that a G-Code itself so you could switch during your program. Need to think where to add that.

**All
Amazing questions! Fantastic ideas!

Very interesting product!

Seems to parallel the GREX thing that came out a while back, only in this case I suspect it is going to have a much better end result.

With just a read-through here and on your website I notice one shortfall that every CNC builder is going to complain about - the number of I/Os. I may be wrong (I hope so), but you will need to add many more I/Os to satisfy us gadget hungry builders. While the hobby folks love adding all sorts of neat toys, the industrial folks need to add the toys and features, especially in the safety and interlock areas. From what I can see so far, the few dedicated I/Os will be barely enough to get a machine up and running and moving.

Otherwise it sure seems to be a good product and well thoughout and executed. I will be watching this close as I was about to purchase a smooth stepper to interface with MACH. Your product seems to have advantages over both that make me want to stop and reconsider.

Very cool, I can't wait to see this when it reaches maturity.

Chris

The Exact Stop/Grouped Velocity is set in the General Tab. There isn't any reason why we couldn't make that a G-Code itself so you could switch during your program. Need to think where to add that.


Mach3 uses G61 for exact stop and G64 for constant velocity. I'd keep them the same, with a setting somewhere else for the type of CV your using (grouped or regular mode).

**Chris,
Thanks for the great comments!

When it comes to the power hungry (all of us), when is anything enough? :D

On the CNC Brain are plugs for the 12 axis encoders (two for each axis with DB9 for direct plug).

There are also two DB25's, with a total of 48 pins. 18 of those are free. Inside the case, there are 18 unused that run to the encoder breakout board. And on the Brain board, another 20.

That's a total of another 56 pins that can be tapped for future use.

Now, is that enough? ... depends ... You can run more than one Brain from a PC. The Brain Board itself, which has the processors and a hirose 100 pin connector (96 I/O on the Hirose + 20 header I/O = 116 total) can be reprogrammed to be any other device as well (yes, mini-supercomputing with all those I/O via USB ... oh, and a 30MByte/sec bandwidth to the PC to boot :) ).

As for maturity, you are very right! We can't wait either. When everyone agrees on the first production version of the software/firmware, that will be a happy day! :wee:

s/Bruce

**Ger,
Your the man! Looks like we have the G-Codes defined for the mod.

On the list!

In regards to I/O, perhaps a second product would be a better option for power hungry users. Sort of a Brain I/O box. With options for analog controls (FRO and spindle speeds) and VFD control as well as digital inputs, with 24V capability. :)

The cycle start/hold is PC. The E-Stop has hardware and software support. Cycle/hold should have a hardware option ... fantastic idea!

The Stop can issue for the current segment. The Pause at the end of a motion.

Homing is controlled by the Position Reference. The "goal" is to not have to use a "home switch" and have the machine, even open loop, re-home as it machines.

The Exact Stop/Grouped Velocity is set in the General Tab. There isn't any reason why we couldn't make that a G-Code itself so you could switch during your program. Need to think where to add that.


Hi Bruce;

Cycle start, feed hold, and estop should be wired directly to the brain in accordance with IEC/NEC best practices. You can let the brain notify the PC of an event rather than have the PC notify the brain.

What you are calling "pause" appears to stop motion as if it were in single block mode. This is a useful control but feed hold should generate an immediate controlled (decellerated) stop. If your cycle start event allows the control to continue where it left off after a cycle stop then you effectively have a feed hold. Is this the case?

Homing to a position reference is only as good as the accuracy/repeatability of that reference. If it is tied to an encoder signature then it should be sufficient. I like your thinking here.

I agree with the previous post that exact stop and continuous motion should be in gcode. Virtually every commercial control defaults to continuous mode (usually G64) with exact stop as a modal command (usually G61) for machining to a wall.

I caution you to avoid the trap of calling G64 "constant velocity" as that is not at all what it does. "Maximum allowable corner deviation" is probably a better definition.

It looks like you are off to a good start. Pay careful attention to how the big names in industry do things and you will avoid problems down the road.

Doug

Hello to all,
I am trying to make a decision and I do not know which way to go. I have a couple cnc mills running 50 hrs a week and I need one more. I have an amazing 4 axis horiz mill from 1986 with 48 tool changer 10,000 rpm spindle, coolant thru spindle and much more. This is a Swiss mill called the Wahli w-50, it is one of the most accurate mills ever made. It has a G.E. 2000 control that has some type of error nobody can tell me whats wrong. I was thinking of putting mach 3 control but I know I can lose some accuracy but now the cnc brain is out! Anybody out there can tell me the complexity of this retrofit. I am aware of all the toolchanger issues, pallet changer, ridgid tapping, but will it be such a hassle to hook these up? I am very creative and have an ok knowledge of electronics but I tend to shy away from any programming besides g-code. This machine has d.c. servos and linear scales but I cant seem to find encoders on the servos. It has Siemens drivers and Siemens dc spindle drive, are these analog. Has anybody ever done this?

J

**Doug,
In all deepest sincerity, thank you!!!

The EStop is there, will add the others ASAP.

Will take all the knowledge and wisdom you are kind enough to impart. I'm listening, intensely.

And yes, the "stop" works to decellerate the axis, which leaves the software pointing at the G-Code line to resume. Now, just need to clean it up with the hardware interface with your improvements.

**Ger,
You've got me thinking. Hmmm :)

What we need to do is partner with someone who already makes reasonably priced interface electronics (no sense re-inventing wheel). Then we can connect our dots and theirs to an affordable solution. We'll wrap it in the Control Panel + SDK + Brain(or I/O version) so it will be simple to use and change.

Best of both worlds.

**JNFSWE,
Your in the right place! These guys know *EVERYTHING*.

I'm not familiar with your machine, but the Brain uses vb script to control the tool changer. Be glad to help any way I can.

Tool changers, Pallet changers etc typically use a raft of I/O, and the same with the degree of logic required to program.
It is possible the Linear scales were the only feedback to the controller, IIRC the 2000 did not have dual feed back capability?
The Servo/spindle drives are very likely analogue, as this was typical for these M/C's.
Rigid tapping requires the use of a spindle encoder, which you should already have.
If indeed the loop is closed back to the controller, then it should be possible to use non-intelligent drives, such as you have, but the analogue control would be a bonus as the majority of older machines use these or any of the new torque mode drives that would do the job.
Al.
It has a G.E. 2000 control that has some type of error nobody can tell me whats wrong. I was thinking of putting mach 3 control but I know I can lose some accuracy but now the cnc brain is out! Anybody out there can tell me the complexity of this retrofit. I am aware of all the toolchanger issues, pallet changer, ridgid tapping, but will it be such a hassle to hook these up? This machine has d.c. servos and linear scales but I cant seem to find encoders on the servos. It has Siemens drivers and Siemens dc spindle drive, are these analog. Has anybody ever done this?
J

Tool changers, Pallet changers etc typically use a raft of I/O, and the same with the degree of logic required to program.
It is possible the Linear scales were the only feedback to the controller, IIRC the 2000 did not have dual feed back capability?
The Servo/spindle drives are very likely analogue, as this was typical for these M/C's.
Rigid tapping requires the use of a spindle encoder, which you should already have.
If indeed the loop is closed back to the controller, then it should be possible to use non-intelligent drives, such as you have, but the analogue control would be a bonus as the majority of older machines use these or any of the new torque mode drives that would do the job.
Al.[/QUOTE]

Al,
Thnx for reply. What is a raft I/O? Why would it be a benefit to have analogue control? I am sure I have analogue drives. What are non intelligent drives. The guy I bought the control from said the scales were etched copper? Each scale has a transformer, what is this? I am thinking to go at this at a very organized way step by step.

1) Read Schematics to get general idea of wiring scheme and take notes 8hours .

2) Take out G.E. control and label all wires from drivers, hydraulic, pnuematic toolchanger, limit switches, encoders, scales, etc. 20hrs

3) Buy the "Brain" and p.c. start wiring section by section (axis x then y then z then spindle) and then try machine. 24hrs

4) Slowly start to attack ridgid tapping and pallet changer. Then (drumroll) TOOLCHANGER. 40 hrs

5) Pick the brain of people on this forum until they bleed.

So what do you guys think can I take this on? I have built a few powersupplies, repaired a couple drivers, home amps, and lots of car and boat elec. Connected a few controls to machines that had to be moved and I am very patient.

brccrb,

I've got a bunch of ideas on how to use your CncBrain/SDK, how about hooking into an intranet (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Intranet) to pull up g-code files. :)

Or it could have an RSS feed, to update the machine operator, like hey I need this job done ASAP.

I'm not trying to add to the wishlist with this one, just pointing out to others how valuable the SDK is.

This post was created & posted inside your SDK (I added an internal browser), I know this is the internet but, it's pretty much the same as far as browsers go.

Screenshot below.


.

**Switcher,
What an amazingly great idea! See, we would never have come up with that! Yeah, since you can grab from the IE control, you could even setup jobs for it to run to pull from a web server.

On the internal/external website, you could have all the programs listed for a machine. Then, with the mouse, select the program to run. No files to move, no drives to search ... web download ... point and click to retrieve the G-Code!

The operator just looks at his screen for what part to make next, or track how many he has done or needs to do. Real time feedback between the floor and the office. Think about that!

Switcher, you just added the beginnings of a web based, machining factory floor manager! :banana:

Awesome idea!

True but who will support this great network?

What is a raft I/O? Why would it be a benefit to have analogue control? I am sure I have analogue drives. What are non intelligent drives. The guy I bought the control from said the scales were etched copper? Each scale has a transformer, what is this? I am thinking to go at this at a very organized way step by step.


Raft is an American term meaning large quantity. You need a lot of I/O (input/output) to operate a tool changer.

Non-intelligent drives respond to an analog signal - typically +/- 10 volts. They do not have the ability to process other data. Your machine most likely has analog (non-intelligent) drives. Adapting them to a step/direction CNC is possible but not advisable. I am not aware of any step/direction controller at this time that is capable of rigid tapping.

If your machine has much value you would be better off investing in a commercial control such as a Centroid (American) or Power Automation (Germany). These will have plenty of I/O, an analog interface for your existing drives, rigid tapping, and a built-in PLC to control your tool changer.

I am not too familiar with the Centroid, but I know the Power Automation CNC is quite easy to retrofit into an existing machine. It will also meet Swedish safety standards. I don't know what they cost in Sweden, but a 4 axis control without the monitor or operator panel is about $4,000 USD. That is not much money in comparison to the potential value of your machine.

Doug

True but who will support this great network?


That would be up to each person (OEM). It could be a simple web page like below.



<html>
<head>
<title>This is a Test</title>
</head>
<body>

<a href="http://www.cnczone.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=61778&d=1213906384">Test DXF File</a>

</body>
</html>

I see your avatar includes "Siemens", I run Siemens 840D, & on my Tool Grinding machine we have the option to enter a cell-phone number into a param., If the machine has an Alarm (say "Coolant Regeneration needed"), the machine will send a text message to the machine op. cell phone, informing them what's going on with the machine, that's good to have for jobs that take a long time, or If you are running a bunch of machines with pallets for loading/unloading & can run for hrs. without attention from the machine op., or lights out manufacturing, just get your machine running at the end of the day, & put a guy on call, If he gets a sms from the machine that needs direct attention he could go into work fix the issue, & go back home. :)

Just don't let me be that guy on call. :)


.

First I would like to thank Doug and all others who have helped the past couple days.

Doug, would this retrofit take more than lets say 40-80 hours? I think I am going to sell this machine, or try to gat the G.E. control running.

J

originally posted by the CNC curly man:
I see your avatar includes "Siemens", I run Siemens 840D, & on my Tool Grinding machine we have the option to enter a cell-phone number into a param., If the machine has an Alarm (say "Coolant Regeneration needed"), the machine will send a text message to the machine op. cell phone, informing them what's going on with the machine, that's good to have for jobs that take a long time, or If you are running a bunch of machines with pallets for loading/unloading & can run for hrs. without attention from the machine op., or lights out manufacturing, just get your machine running at the end of the day, & put a guy on call, If he gets a sms from the machine that needs direct attention he could go into work fix the issue, & go back home.

Just don't let me be that guy on call.


Switcher,

It's true Siemens PLM solutions can do all what you say on it's coordinated worldwide network systems. :D

Switcher,

It's true Siemens PLM solutions can do all what you say on it's coordinated worldwide network systems. :D


And now a small shop can have what Siemens has. :)

The more folks that start posting VB.net controls, the faster/cheaper/better , our cnc projects get.

I could see a library of options to pick from, down the road (hope it's a short road). ;)


------------------------------------------

brccrb,
If you build it they will come... :D


.

Doug, would this retrofit take more than lets say 40-80 hours? I think I am going to sell this machine, or try to gat the G.E. control running.

An experienced retrofitter who is familiar with the new control could probably do it in 50 hours. I would probably bid a job like that at 80 hours. You could spend 200 hours just learning enough to program the PLC for the tool changer.

Whether you use a CNCBrain, Mach3, or a commercial CNC, it is not a trivial task.

The advantage of doing it yourself is that you won't have to pay a service man to come fix it when it breaks. Here in the states, CNC service people charge more than the hourly operating rate for the machine, sometimes twice as much.

Let me see if I unedrstand what the brain does, yes I read the whole thread but, I want to be sure :D
I have a open loop machine (I have 3 but nevermind) with this path:

PC>Mach3>Parallel board>Breakout Board>motor driver> stepper motor

With the brain it would be:
PC>Brain Software>USB>Brain Hardware>motor driver> stepper motor w/encoders

or Im missing something?

1) The encoders can be glass scales for the lenght of the axis? 2) or they can be rotary encoders in the motor shaft or the ballscrew? 3) or both can be used & combined?

Do you have an user manual to ckeck out? I browsed your site but can't find it. At least some wiring examples?

Thanks, looks like a nice product, I would love to see it working with mach3 :)

**Switcher,
OK, wait, trying to breath ... whew! :D Funny comment! Shucks (pun on the corn field)

Library, another great idea. Need to think of somewhere to put them ... a place on the website to store them. Hmmm ... (group)

**Peu,
You've got it. And bring out another great point! Since you have a breakout board and the Brain has DB25s ...

PC>Brain Software>USB>Brain Hardware>Breakout Board>motor driver> stepper motor w/encoders.

The CNC Brain is a logic level device. Switches, encoders, etc. are fine direct connect (the DB9 connector already have a 5VDC power to drive them). Driving a motor (with something like a Gecko) is fine direct. If it is too noisy or more than 5vdc, it needs to be isolated.

The axis encoders (what you use to measure the axis position itself) can be A) glass scales, B) Rotary encoders on the screws/pinion, or C) rotary encoder with rack and anti-backlash gears.

The motor encoders (used to figure out what is happening before it effects position) are typically rotary encoders.

Open Loop = no sensors
Closed Loop = axis sensors
Double Closed Loop = axis + motor sensors.

Manual is being completed and will be posted as soon as it is ready. Will have wiring examples. Until then, check out the I/O video in the gallery or in the software :)

Most excellent questions! And where did you find that avatar?

**Peu [...] where did you find that avatar?

Its called Clemente, one of the most popular and of the oldest still running everyday newspaper comic strips in Argentina, check this link (in spanish) http://www.caloi.com.ar/clemente/clemente.htm

Thanks for your answers

Excellent product.

I have made it threw acouple of videos and I will say I am pretty impressed. I acouple of questions.

Could you use the brain on 2 three axis machines just make 2 different profiles, and could you use both profiles at the same time.

You mentioned possibly wifi, does this mean it might work with a print server in the future?

In post #21 Turmite wrote "If I understood even a little of what Bruce has imparted to me, should the system not be able to keep up for some reason and there is a point of impending failure, the Brain will estop! "

Is this statement true and how much error is allowed or not allowed before the estop kicks in.

And lastly if I am think about this the right way. Your machine would be as accuarate as your glass slides or rotarty encoder. So if your slides are good for .0002 you could potentially get .0002 accuarcy even if you use cheaper or not the best screws off the rack.

Thanks for getting me in trouble as now I have to convince the accountant "wife" that I now need this

**Regnar,
I like the way you say "made it threw" ... not quite Hollywood excitement :D

Great question! Hmm.. you could use one Brain on two machines. You would need your G-Code to address each axis (one machine X,Y,Z, the other A,B,C). The movements would be synchronized ... and act as one machine.

The two machines would fall under one profile and be treated like one machine. Didn't ever think about that. We've been asked to run several Brains as an 18 axis (or even 50).

Ah! The great error question. The Brain is a planner. It tries to keep everything where it is supposed to be. The ability to recognize an error is based on the resolution of the encoders used. Now, this does help translate to accuracy, but there are physical limits.

The Brain needs to realize there isn't any way to correct the motion before it EStops. Rarely does this occur.

The CNC Brain is about correcting in near real-time as, or before, an error occurs. To do this, it crunches a ton of numbers. It can compensate for inaccurate screws, slipping belts, and flex ... if you saw the "positionally challenged machine" in the video, the screws are NOT accurate and springy to boot. In the video, we had to slow it way down to hear the big corrections. During a "smooth" move, it probably corrects 40 times or more at minimum, but so fast as not to notice it.

We've seen a machine with almost 0.01" backlash hold 0.0005" in 4 axis. That was a little more than an order of magnitude (that doesn't mean it is a guarantee, but an example). The error depends on the machine of course, but when something is actively trying to correct, it does make a big difference.

Closed Loop can really be useful for climb milling vs conventional milling. CAM software sometimes generate both closed and conventional milling paths (bidirectional cuts). Without closed loop, the backlash of a system can be different with each cut. Think about this for a second ... in open loop, the backlash is "assumed" to be against the motion. But if the milling pulls the table forward ...

The aspect I find most useful, besides increased accuracy, is the dependability. Take a machine that slips over a big run and it can become a tame prototyping device. Now, remember, G-Code wasn't created for prototyping, it was for repeatability. So to say "prototyping" means alot.

The goal, at least for us mere mortals, is a prototype (or custom part) right the first time, everytime. So you don't spend your whole weekend fighting the machine to make one "quickie" part.

We'll help you every way we can. But, when it comes to the wife, you're on your own :)

**TxCowDog,
Thank you for the kind compliment. :D We are trying to earn it.

Sincerely, we want help everyone out there that fights with their machine to come to expect it to do what they want ... everytime.

s/Bruce

Excellent product.

Wow...this thing sounds great. I was bummed when I found out the GREX was having problems, and that MACH wasn't closed loop. The Gecko stepper servo sounded intriguing, but this certainly sounds like it has it all. Your quick, honest, in depth answers go a long way towards convincing me to "drink the coolaid" on this one...LOL

Your quick, honest, in depth answers go a long way towards convincing me to "drink the coolaid" on this one...LOL

Now that is the best explaination of desire er.... uh....need....I think I have ever heard. I wasn't drinking coffee, but if I had been, I surely would have had to clean my moniter!:D

HAHA...now that I read it again, I guess there is a way that Bruce could take it negatively...LOL. But I did mean it as a compliment...I don't even like coolaid:) I'm pretty sure I will have one of these soon.

Hey Bruce,
What about linear motors? in case you use a linear motor and a linear encoder (optical/magnetical/glass scales).
Can it work in closed and double closed loop?

Thanks! im really liking the sound of this product more and more.

Regards
Fernando

Fernado,
Great topic! How could that have been missed? :confused:

Linear shouldn't be a problem. Inside the CNC Brain is motion control logic (not a pulsiting engine .. it does generate pulses, just does a lot more), it doesn't care if it is linear, rotary, pneumatic, or hydraulic (the latter needs the PWM added first).

But you bring up a really great point. Linear wouldn't have the motor encoder, the axis would be the motor encoder. This would mean it would run Closed Loop.

Now, this isn't a problem since linear motors react so quickly (no gears or belts to spin) the logic should behave the same. Double is there to compensate for the spin up/down and predict the motion (there is a time lag between what is going on with the rotary motor and the axis moving).

As for linear encoder, just need the AB encoding. Thinkining about other types for the future.

Fantastic point! :D

s/Bruce

Hey Bruce,
What about linear motors? in case you use a linear motor and a linear encoder (optical/magnetical/glass scales).
Can it work in closed and double closed loop?

Thanks! im really liking the sound of this product more and more.

Regards
Fernando

Rube,
Ha! Didn't take it badly ... but you did make me think :idea: of this kid I went to high school with that snorted coolaid ... I never got it. He was a clean cut kid, honor student, just had that disturbing habbit ... walking around with rainbow nostrils ... blowing his nose much have been art.

That's what popped in my head anyway. :D ... hard to get it out of there once you hear it.

s/Bruce

Bruce, acouple more questions

Can you slave the axis for people that have more than one motor on each axis. Use 2 scales to stop the racking effect.

Do you have plans for a 3 axis brain with maybe a bit of a price drop for those who never plan on running 6 axis?

Can you use electronic linear scales like the ones used for dro's (cheap china scales)

I was seriously thinking about adding a dro to my already cnc mill just for the fact that I have power outages all the time (Lighting and poor power company) just like explained. Right now I use a edge finder and it takes forever and you never really get it back to the right spot.

Good news and bad news. Wife appoved so I will be ordering. Bad news is Im going to wait until acouple of people put up some reviews. No offence to you Bruce, I have been burnt before and it left a bad taste. So if anyone gets thiers installed i would appreciate the feedback.

**Regnar,
First, please, no offense is taken. I've tried to be very up front that it is in Beta form (the hardware won't change, but the software/firmware can be remotely upgraded). If there were to be any hardware changes, we'll setup an equipment swap during the Beta.

We have a 30 day return policy, but during the beta that gets extended. If it isn't doing what you need/want, I want you to return it. We have a lot invested in this and in it for the long haul. We have some other products in the works that over the coming year will begin to show what we're up to :D ... "A Factory Of One", isn't just a logo.

Actually, if it were me, I'd think about using an "adapter cable" between the old configuration and the new one (two DB25's with wires between the differences). Gives you a fall back plan if it isn't what you need and it only costs you a few DB25s and some wire.

Yes, we are adding the dual axis. Basically, you use two of your six axis, (like X and C) to run one axis. This lets each side run to stabilize the machine (each side can run closed/double closed loop for position control). That is being added now.