Survey about EMC 2 ( Aimed at non users) [Archive] - CNCzone.com-The Ultimate Machinist Community

cadmonkey

06-15-2008, 06:44 PM

The results are interesting - it would suggest that more people should be using EMC2.

I'm runing the 2.2.5 version on a 650MHz P3 384mb curbside computer running 60ipm on my X3 (although I have the Z throttle back to 30ipm due to the 2.6:1 gearing on a NEMA 34 motor). I could run faster with bigger steppers on the X - I'm borderline to losing steps and I'm running Gecko G203Vs @ 53VDC. Try running XP let alone XP plus, as someone posted in another thread "the defacto hobbyist standard software" on that setup. I doubt XP would even install worth a crap. There actually has been some talk about the bloat of the Ubuntu live installations at this point even - not sure if anything will come of it, but the developers are trying to make sure it's as slim as possible.

As for configuration - I downloaded and tried the "defacto standard" software on my standard desktop before I tried EMC (the earlier version, not the current EMC2) and EMC was the hands down winner for configuration options. EMC2 makes the previous version look like a box of nuts and bolts. Configuration is quick easy and painless.

Anyone who responded the survey but isn't running EMC2, grab yourself a cheap hard drive, even a scrapped one, install EMC2 from the .iso and give it a weekend. If you're not impressed with just the results of the basic Stepconf wizard to start (yes the documentation is still a little rough around the edges, but if you like how it runs the basics, finding the rest in the docs is worth that little bit of effort). I'm not trying to take $$ from any vendors, but EMC2 really is worth every hobbyists attention. Matter of factl - a number of the guys on the emc2 users mailing list are retrofitting large iron in their shops with it - a number of reasons, but the most common seems to be standardizing the controls on all the machines instead of multiple systems. If it's reliable and robust enough for real work...

You can see my setup of an X3 benchtop on EMC2 at www.distinctperspectives.com/coppermine - the gallery shows the machine, the setup and the first stuff I've really done with it - I've got more I'm working on now and will post in the next 2 or 3 days. The machine is a work in progress, I've got additional sensors that are going to be installed but everyone who's commented in my thread in the Benchtop forum has been all praises.

And to quote some old tag line "Try it! You'll like it!"

Greg Michalski

BMG

06-15-2008, 07:50 PM

In addition to the the email forum (in which I lurk and learn), there is an active IRC channel usually with someone online 24/7. Head to the linuxcnc.org for info on the IRC site.

Brian

dertsap

06-15-2008, 08:00 PM

the new version of emc makes it super simple to set up , the initial setup wizard makes it almost idiot proof , where as before , having to dig up the ini file and configure it was a pain in the butt and a real bugger to figure out if a guy hadn t done it before .
emc runs smooth and as fast as anything else does , the only setback i find with it is there is no way to have multiple tools setup , they really need to add a tool page .
http://www.codeweavers.com/products/ crossover is getting better as well ,which allows a guy to run windows software within ubuntu

ynneb

06-15-2008, 08:37 PM

That cross over program looks pretty good and cheap too. Yet another barrier removed for using EMC Linux.

dertsap

06-15-2008, 09:32 PM

i think the crossover is a commercial version of wine , i tryed to use wine and got frustrated trying to figure out how to use it , crossover is a simple install and easy to use

bsharp

06-15-2008, 09:47 PM

Here is a collection of EMC videos that I found interesting. http://www.youtube.com/groups_videos?name=EMCCNC

In one of the videos there was a 5 axis machine "modeled" running in EMC2. This looks awesome. Is that something that EMC2 will do by its self or is it an add on or something?

YouTube - EMC2 5-axis machining

I have been wanting to play with EMC2 for a while but haven't got around to it.
I like Mach but I am a Gear head geek and like to get down to the nuts and bolts of things. And if EMC2 can do 3d solid simulation I will be on it.:eek:

bsharp

06-15-2008, 10:09 PM

That cross over program looks pretty good and cheap too. Yet another barrier removed for using EMC Linux.

I demoed a copy of Crossover for MAC and it was pretty good. At the time it did not have fast 3D graphics so I bailed on it. When I try EMC for the first time I will run it from linux. My personal opinion there are to many things that just don't seem to work the same from a virtual machine. And at first I wouldn't want to deal with anything more than learning EMC.:)

bsharp

06-15-2008, 10:38 PM

i think the crossover is a commercial version of wine , i tryed to use wine and got frustrated trying to figure out how to use it , crossover is a simple install and easy to use

Crossover is a machine emulator. It emulates an entire machine "PC" in software inside your existing environment "Operating System". Same as VMWare.

Wine is just sort of a translator for the windows API "windows programming to linux programming". There are thousands of windows API calls and each with many requirements of different parts of windows code. Wine is a project to translate these codes to something similar in X windows. Wine has been around for a long time and it has only scratched the surface of the entire windows API "witch only microsoft knows all of". So with that said I wouldn't plan on Wine actually running any thing accept for the most simplest of programs. Take it from experience "don't waste your time with it". Unless you can and have the time to reverse engineer windows API calls and translate them to X windows? In short you would be better off and wiser to rewrite the entire program in linux.

Probably more than you needed to know but I have seen this come up a few times on the forum and figured I would repay a little of the help I have gotten. cheers

dertsap

06-15-2008, 11:11 PM

ynneb

06-15-2008, 11:18 PM

lots of software won t work with it , so i don t want to give the impression that all windows software will run thru it
I guess CAD and CAM would have a good likely hood of working as they are primarily maths based and the graphics generating isnt overly exhaustive. Guess though. I'll have to give it a crack some time soon and start a list of the software that does work with crossover.
Rememberiing its primarily CAD and Cam that makes the whole cnc experience complete with EMC

bsharp

06-15-2008, 11:56 PM

youve lost me man
somewhere after "Wine is just sort of a translator ":)

i suppose if it is an emulator it isn t to the extent of vmware where you have to install a guest operating system , i found it far simpler to use in that sense.
click the crossover on and install whatever software i wanted to use ,

lots of software won t work with it , so i don t want to give the impression that all windows software will run thru it

I am sorry man I was thinking of Paralells (chair)
"Thats what I get for staying up late and trying to think":tired:

I have tried them both out and my second opinion on Wine/Crossover still stands though.

dertsap

06-16-2008, 01:12 AM

I guess CAD and CAM would have a good likely hood of working as they are primarily maths based and the graphics generating isnt overly exhaustive.

ive tryed a bobcad demo which worked and cimco editor works as well , some of the graphic quality isn t quite as good as on windows though , but they do work

parallels is good , i'd take parallels over vmware anyday , though i haven t tryed it on linux yet

skullworks

06-16-2008, 02:17 AM

Well I kind of cheat. I use BOBCAD v12 for DOS In Ubuntu using "DOSBOX". - It may have been intended for games but works just fine for CAD/CAM for me. The (very) OLD Dos version of Bobcad can do 97% of what I need. It just isn't suited for complex 3D work or drawings with over 14,000 entities.

BTW the 5 axis sim is there because EMC2 does 5 axis machines - See Stuarts BIG Cinci

cadmonkey

06-16-2008, 12:55 PM

EMC can do whatever number of axes you'd like - but I don't recall what kinematics files are available. It did not create that demo of a 5 axis machine moving about posted on page 2. But there are videos out there of it running the multiple axis machines, you just need the right kinematics file that describes to the interpreter how all the axes relate to each other.

And EMC does have a tool table - it just doesn't have a gui to hold your hand - you have to edit a text file that is 3 or 4 columns wide that describe the tool, off hand they are - tool #, tool pocket (since autochangers aren't necessarily in order or with limited tool capacity you sometimes swap), length, diameter and a comment if you want. Real simple. I believe they are looking to increase the size of the table as far as # of tools you can list in it but don't hold me to that, just something I recall from a message on the list.

mlaws1172

06-17-2008, 02:20 PM

Benny
glad to see you building a site for EMC2, you did a great job with Mach.

It will be nice to have one site with all the info. that i know you will put on there

mike

ynneb

06-18-2008, 12:06 AM

Thanks Mike, problem is, non of them have contacted me back yet for any sort of go ahead :( (Maybe they are all at Galesburg)

kirk_wallace

06-18-2008, 02:19 AM

For what it's worth. I have a complete Linux work path. I use Synergy to model the part, CAM the g-code and make a drawing if needed. It does full 3d paths and more. I haven't explored 5 axis yet, but it comes with a 5 axis demo file. I then clean up a few details in the g-code with gedit. FTP the file to a file server. Download the file to EMC on the machine and run it. I am totally MS, dual-boot and emulator free.

Kirk, http://www.wallacecompany.com/machine_shop/

epineh

06-18-2008, 05:37 AM

Hi Kirk, I checked out Synergy, looks interesting, there is no mention of price on their site, how much is it ?

I am downloading the 30 day trial to check it out.

Russell.

ynneb

06-18-2008, 08:18 AM

Funny you should ask that Russell. I also sent away to ask the price and this is what they sent me.

Big John T

06-18-2008, 08:35 AM

2 1/2 axis for $250 that is real cost effective... Kirk, what do you have to clean up in the G-Code?

John

mckban

06-18-2008, 09:52 AM

I am sorry man I was thinking of Paralells (chair)
"Thats what I get for staying up late and trying to think":tired:

I have tried them both out and my second opinion on Wine/Crossover still stands though.

For more accurate information on Wine see www.winehq.org. Check out "Debunking Wine Myths" and the "Applications Database".

I've been running windows programs on Wine for years, and I can say that it is fantastically better now than it was not too long ago. Even so, I ran MSWord 95 on it several years ago.

Moses

cyclestart

06-18-2008, 09:41 PM

synergy+no_forum=no_sale

Just my opinion. And a wiki (possibly in the works) is not a real substitute. Again only InMyStubbornOpinion.

Compare this to Sheetcam with a forum here, a forum on the home site, and a yahoo group over 1300 members. Now consider SheetCam is less complex. Much less complex.

Synergy is industrial grade software and a hobbiest would be lucky to have it. It is true cad/cam and associative. The pricing is appealing even for 3D. Having to depend on webersys for every bit of help is much less appealing. Maybe the $600 per day in house training? Not on my budget. The built in help? Just can't possibly cover every situation.

Just my 2 cents as a hobby guy drooling over industrial software.

ynneb

06-19-2008, 02:49 AM

I tend to agree Cyclestart.
Training costs more than the software itself.
Yes to SheetCam too.

nanmol

07-29-2008, 03:00 PM

We have a conversational system that we developed for EMC. SynergyLite is a simple interface designed to make typical operations like drilling, pocketing and contouring as easy as possible.

http://webersys.com/images/SynergyLite.jpg

ynneb

07-29-2008, 05:49 PM

Hey Nanmol, we would love to see a video tutorial showing how to use synergylite.
Why dont you upload one to youtube and then insert it into this thread. For that matter any one who wanted to do any tutorial videos please do so. We could build up a repository of them.

skullworks

07-29-2008, 11:39 PM

Please don't use the Word "Conversational".

It is Trade marked and Copywrited and integrated into serveral patents. And the holder of which has made more profit from suing people who use that term than from the sale of the machine tool software which IS "Conversational".

Fanuc was bleeding green when the term was used in a translation - and the translated terms were used in an a sales add. Cost them several million or so I heard.

Perhaps "Fully Interactive" ( IIRC someone else holds claim to "Interact" )

ckm

07-30-2008, 03:01 AM

Before I post to this thread, I should give some background and state that this is purely my own opinion.

I have been an Open Source user for almost 20 years and have used Linux since 1995. Seven years ago, I started an Open Source strategy consultancy that helps companies understand and use Open Source software. In that capacity, I have done work for every almost every single large tech company and something like 40 Open Source startups. I have been a contributer to around 7 Open Source projects and have done a large amount of work for the Linux Foundation.

So, I know more than a little bit about Linux and Open Source, you could say.

Personally, I would never use EMC2. I realize that it's a pretty bold statement and I'll probably get a lot of flack for it. The fundamental problem with EMC2 is not that it's technically bad or that it lacks eyecandy, it that there seems to be a genuine disinterest in the community on ease of use. Why is this a problem?

Well, if you look at the population of CNC retrofiters/builders (which is EMC2's target market, like it or not), then they basically fall into two camps:

1. Hobbyists who can't afford a $20k VMC
2. Professionals trying to reuse old equipment

The first category is often new to machining and CNC, but often have quite a technical background, generally in mechanical/analog rather than software/electronics. They are either experimenting with some interesting capabilities or have specific needs they feel can only be met by a CNC machine. They face a very, very steep learning curve in learning to operate the entire functional chain needed to produce a part, from CAD to CAM to operation, never mind retrofiting/building a machine.

The second category of people are usually highly experienced in a lot of facets of machining, have a deep understanding of the functional chain, but lack funds to buy a $20k VMC. Or they have a specific need that can't be easily met commercially (NCCAMS comes to mind...).

So, give those two market segments, which is the largest? And which is EMC2 addressing? And, therein lies the problem. EMC2 is catering for a small niche of people who are CNC pros, and, for whatever reason, are retrofitting a machine. The result is a piece of software which is technically great, but lacks a lot of ease of use features that might appeal to the larger population of CNC builders.

The reality is that, right now, MACH3 is software that makes the category 1 people more productive, more quickly and minimizes the learning curve. It's not about eyecandy (personally, I hate the eyecandy), it's about stuff like canned cycles, setup screens, stuff like 'brains' and easy of integration with a wide variety of hardware, plus a million other small details that make it much easier to use.

In those respects, EMC2 has failed miserably to meet the needs of the majority of it's potential adopters. It's a common problem with a lot of Open Source software, where technical elegance can be more prized than ease of use, even when ease of use is what users are after.

Back to my initial stake in the ground. I firmly fall into category 1 as a CNC user. I know virtually nothing about machining, but I have a need to produce custom things out of solid materials. I don't have the expertise to be immediately productive with EMC2 and hardware integration looks like a large learning curve I don't want to deal with. Never mind having to figure out all the other parts of the tool chain (like getting posts for EMC2). And, yes, I know that I could probably spend hours digging through mailing lists and asking tons of questions to solve all of those issues, but I just don't have time for that kind of investment. In this case, I'm a typical consumer, I want instant gratification or I just get frustrated and move on to something less frustrating.*

Does it suck that I have to run Windows on my CNC machine. Yep. Can I do anything concrete about it? Probably not, I have a lot of other things keeping me busy. Will EMC2 eventually cater to my needs? I hope so, but I'm pretty sanguine about it. But the problem is not Linux, that's just the wrong meme, the problem is that, fundamentally, EMC2 is a product built by knowledgeable professionals for other knowledgeable professionals and it just doesn't fit my use case.

Having said all that, I will say that if this thread is part of an effort by the EMC2 community to address some of the reasons why it is not widely adopted, then I think that's great. It takes a lot of courage to stick your neck out and ask current/potential users what is wrong with your project.
That's my $0.02 worth. Flame away, I've got my flame suit on (flame2)
Chris.
P.S. To be fair, I haven't read this whole thread, so I have no idea what others said. I will read it after this post.

*Please don't point me to X,Y or Z link/post/wiki/forum/blog where all this is explained. Doing that just shows you aren't listening to what I am saying. Besides, I have probably already seen it (see above re: 20 years of open source, I have learned some things...) and it won't change my opinion.

ynneb

07-30-2008, 03:44 AM

epineh

07-30-2008, 04:44 AM

Hi Chris, I am not going to flame, you are welcome to your opinion, but I will offer my recent EMC experience. I fall into your category one, hobbiest not willing (or able :)) to part with 20K...

I have just setup my hobby router using EMC, and the setup was via a GUI all the way (stepconf), initial setup took about 10 minutes, I had a few loose ends on the machine that needed fixing (had to install limits/home switches) so I had to do a little more setup which took another 10 minutes. I had a little problem with homing but a quick chat on IRC fixed that and the problem was totally and completely my stupidity.

Now the machine is completely running and the OS is completely rock solid as you will be familiar with, IMHO it just couldn't be simpler. I purposely used the GUI setup wizard to see just how much a noob like myself can do with very little effort. Sure I can now edit files and tweak all sorts of stuff, but I don't need to, it works and works well.

I had tried EMC about a year ago and struggled with it, now I found the setup to be painless and straightforward.

Cheers.

Russell.

cyclestart

07-30-2008, 07:48 AM

Hey, a dissenting opinion. Moving a poll marked "aimed at non-users" into the emc forum was a love-in waiting to happen. The results are looking a little skewed.

there seems to be a genuine disinterest in the community on ease of use. Why is this a problem?
Have you looked at emc2 in the last year or so ? The developers have been working on alternatives to text based config files etc. Stepconf is one example. Suggesting the needs of new users are being ignored is a bit unfair.

samco

07-30-2008, 09:22 AM

Reading thru your thread here..
http://www.cnczone.com/forums/showthread.php?t=50787

Looks like you have more than enough 'smarts' to make emc work.

It does take a little effort on the users end. The step-config is for simple-ish machines and it works well. IMO you can't make an 'setup' utility that will take care of every possible machine combination.

Let us know when you get rigid tapping and actual machine position back to mach working. ;)

BTW - I know next to nothing about mach... Don't you have to write some sort of script to get your tool changer working. VB maybe?

sam

Well, if you look at the population of CNC retrofiters/builders (which is EMC2's target market, like it or not), then they basically fall into two camps:

1. Hobbyists who can't afford a $20k VMC
2. Professionals trying to reuse old equipment

Back to my initial stake in the ground. I firmly fall into category 1 as a CNC user. I know virtually nothing about machining, but I have a need to produce custom things out of solid materials. I don't have the expertise to be immediately productive with EMC2 and hardware integration looks like a large learning curve I don't want to deal with. Never mind having to figure out all the other parts of the tool chain (like getting posts for EMC2). And, yes, I know that I could probably spend hours digging through mailing lists and asking tons of questions to solve all of those issues, but I just don't have time for that kind of investment. In this case, I'm a typical consumer, I want instant gratification or I just get frustrated and move on to something less frustrating.*

ckm

07-30-2008, 10:34 AM

You make some good points Chris and I tend to agree. I will be one of those who presses through and learns via the hard way of sifting through, the mail boards.
I think the reason that Ubuntu is now the leading Linux distro by a long way, is that they have discovered they need to make things easy for the user, and assume they dont know much. (Most of us dont know much)
I also think people will learn from Ubuntu and start realizing that in order to gain popular acceptance they need to make things simple to use.

One question, have you even tried to use EMC, or are you assuming it is hard to use?

I think I have downloaded it 3-4 times over the past couple of years. So yes, I've tried it a number of times. The Axis interface is a huge improvement, but still no where near where it should be. One of the things that baffles me about EMC is this assumption that you will have both a keyboard and mouse... It's supposed to be used on a machine tool, I'd rather do away with both of those as far as possible.

Chris.

ckm

07-30-2008, 10:39 AM

Hey, a dissenting opinion. Moving a poll marked "aimed at non-users" into the emc forum was a love-in waiting to happen. The results are looking a little skewed.

Have you looked at emc2 in the last year or so ? The developers have been working on alternatives to text based config files etc. Stepconf is one example. Suggesting the needs of new users are being ignored is a bit unfair.

Yes, I downloaded 2.2 in February to evaluate it for a new project I am working. I spent quite some time with it before deciding it wasn't worth it. It's not really about step conf etc., that's a one time operation (and I am using servos anyway), but it's ongoing usability for someone like me who is not a machinist.

Chris.

ckm

07-30-2008, 10:52 AM

Reading thru your thread here..
http://www.cnczone.com/forums/showthread.php?t=50787

Looks like you have more than enough 'smarts' to make emc work.

It's not really about that, it's about the learning curve vs all the other learning curves I'm facing and choosing where to spend my time.

It does take a little effort on the users end. The step-config is for simple-ish machines and it works well. IMO you can't make an 'setup' utility that will take care of every possible machine combination.

Setup is a one time thing. But even that is opaque. How many people in the EMC community have built a control panel like mine? How do you configure EMC to talk to all that? There's probably 50 people who've done that in Mach, with examples in the documentation. There is no mention of this in EMCs docs or anywhere else. Sure, it's possible, but it's probably a 10 hour project vs 30 minutes in Mach.

Let us know when you get rigid tapping and actual machine position back to mach working. ;)

It's probably a waste of space to answer this since it is in my thread, but I'm using servos with encoders. The loop is being closed in the motor driver, not the controller, so it's largely irrelevant. And the breakout board I am using auto-homes (in hardware) on machine startup using home and encoders. As far a rigid tapping, I'm sure I can get it working since the spindle is just a large servo in this machine, but it's not a high priority.

BTW - I know next to nothing about mach... Don't you have to write some sort of script to get your tool changer working. VB maybe?

I suppose you could use VB, but there are several other ways of doing it. The really easy way to do it (and what I should have done) is to use a Cublox PLC over ModBus. I'm using ModBus IO with the built in ladder logic PLC. AFAIK, EMC doesn't even support ModBus.

Chris.

Big John T

07-30-2008, 11:02 AM

Yes, I downloaded 2.2 in February to evaluate it for a new project I am working. I spent quite some time with it before deciding it wasn't worth it. It's not really about step conf etc., that's a one time operation (and I am using servos anyway), but it's ongoing usability for someone like me who is not a machinist.

Chris.

So is this for a machine that does not machine parts? For FREE you must do some of the work. For LOTS of MONEY you can get a control program tailored to your needs... and that is what integrators do for a living. Once any control program is configured the usability should be stable... The fact that EMC is highly configurable means the integrator (you) must do some work on your part to set it up. I would be happy to integrate EMC into your project. I earn $75-$100 per hour depending on the project for those services. EMC is still free...

John

samco

07-30-2008, 01:03 PM

No - you are right - at the moment there is very little modbus support. Some are looking at it. The thing is, with emc, you don't have to buy the extra hardware if you don't want to. Emc has built in ladder 'classic ladder'.

You could, if you where so inclined, make a closed loop servo machine with tool changer, rigid tapping and spindle control all thru the printer port. (well 3 printer ports probably) ;) For somethings this limits you to a point as far as how fast the computer can count encoders for example. (you should be able to approach 50khz)

Now if you want to step it up a notch - there is quite a bit of inexpensive (dumb) hardware that have high speed encoder counters, outputs pwm or +/-10v for servo drives and lots of I/O.

Lets not forget the tax put on the computer outputting step pulses. Using servos and closing the loop within emc2 - you have a 1ms or .5ms thread doing the pid calcs and such instead of a 30us or faster thread outputting step/dir pulses. (yes step/dir does work great though in emc)

You have options. :)

as far a rigid tapping with mach - the only ways I know of it working are either using external galil style hardware or setting up a true axis like hoss did (using b axis for the spindle and writing gcode to run b/z at the right rate.) Emc has spindle synced motion. It 'gears' the axis/axis(s) to the spindle using an encoder.

Now for one bad thing about emc (yes - I know this is surprising)

You cannot pause a program - jog - resume program. (I don't find this as a problem but I know others have complained)

sam

It's not really about that, it's about the learning curve vs all the other learning curves I'm facing and choosing where to spend my time.

Setup is a one time thing. But even that is opaque. How many people in the EMC community have built a control panel like mine? How do you configure EMC to talk to all that? There's probably 50 people who've done that in Mach, with examples in the documentation. There is no mention of this in EMCs docs or anywhere else. Sure, it's possible, but it's probably a 10 hour project vs 30 minutes in Mach.

It's probably a waste of space to answer this since it is in my thread, but I'm using servos with encoders. The loop is being closed in the motor driver, not the controller, so it's largely irrelevant. And the breakout board I am using auto-homes (in hardware) on machine startup using home and encoders. As far a rigid tapping, I'm sure I can get it working since the spindle is just a large servo in this machine, but it's not a high priority.

I suppose you could use VB, but there are several other ways of doing it. The really easy way to do it (and what I should have done) is to use a Cublox PLC over ModBus. I'm using ModBus IO with the built in ladder logic PLC. AFAIK, EMC doesn't even support ModBus.

Chris.

dan_the_welder

07-30-2008, 03:07 PM

Hi,

It seems to me that we have a lot of options in the machine control world. They all have their strengths and weaknesses.

Before I go any further, everyone who has created or participated in the creation of this low cost and/or open source machine control software and hardware industry gets a huge thank you from me. Not just for the work they have done, which is amazing, but for opening up a world which was almost totally closed to the little guys. Unless you could "do it all", software, electronics, mechanical, you were pretty much stuck. Now you can get a piece here and a piece there and make a machine that will get you parts. What does this mean? Economically it means that this little industry is opening doors for many people and could change the face of the whole mass produced, no choice, one size fits all world we live in. Sounds pretty grandiose but, it's a ray of light in my world.. It makes me very happy to think of all the people out there using their creativity and learning new skills in order to try and make a living in a society that is increasingly hostile to the little guys.

That said, I have tried Mach, EMC2 and one or two of the dos machine controllers.

I have chosen to focus on EMC2 because it provides a path to the kind of ultimate customization that I am looking for.

In the mean time setting up a three axis mill took about half an hour.

For the other things I want to do, I have to learn a new operating system and some programming. Worth it to me because I have grown to hate windows for a number of reasons, not the least of which is that I feel like it is intellectually a dead end. Any time I spend learning Linux will pay dividends in the future, and time I spend learning more windows skills will be IMHO wasted, as at any time they can decide to close some element of my access to the machine, for digital rights management or whatever. I can customize a Linux distro any way I want, remove or add, it's up to me.

I am willing to spend the time to learn the system, it's worth it to me. I am no programming whiz by the way. Last time I wrote a program I was greeted with a flashing green cursor and a message that said "Commodore Basic 2.0_".After a couple of months of spare time I can install Linux on anything, edit a config file and I have a Python program that takes some input and spits out some numbers. I can see the custom GUI machine control I desire in the near distance.

Dan

Big John T

07-30-2008, 03:21 PM

Hi,

and I have a Python program that takes some input and spits out some numbers. I can see the custom GUI machine control I desire in the near distance.

Dan

Hi Dan,

Don't know if you have been on this EMC wiki page

http://wiki.linuxcnc.org/cgi-bin/emcinfo.pl?Simple_EMC_G-Code_Generators

but there are some python programs here that you can use and change to your hearts desire...

Enjoy
John

dan_the_welder

07-30-2008, 03:47 PM

Hi John,

I have not looked at that page in a while. Thanks.

Dan

ynneb

07-30-2008, 05:40 PM

I would love to see a standalone screen designer for EMC the same as Mach3 has.
This would be allow EAST creation of screens that people could customize for their setups.
A WYSIWYG screen editor.

123CNC

07-30-2008, 05:51 PM

skullworks

07-30-2008, 08:01 PM

Well thanks to the maturity level Linux reached prior to "Billy" releashing Windows ME 2nd Edition (aka Vista) Linux has seen a huge number of converts.

M$ has been dropping support for hardware and being a Pig (resource hog) in general, forcing people & business to upgrade hardware just to have a functional O/S.

eg. Try to use a SCSI scanner in WXP or Vista.

M$ is helping Linux growth as they continue to manufacture discontent within there user base.

stustev

07-30-2008, 08:06 PM

my 4 cents (inflation you know)
Why would anyone want to flame someone for being honest in this thread. The point is to hear why someone does/will not use EMC2. All of the negative comments are in fact each a point of possible positive development. We have annual audits of our AS9100 'quality' system. Our QA manager wants there to be no findings or dings. I tell him every year if the auditor does not find any way for us to improve our system then he didn't dig deep enough and we just spent $3000.00 US for nothing. Findings and dings are not negative. They represent another opportunity to more perfect our system.
Every point should be welcomed and embraced.
Ease of use and functionality are a very important consideration.
My personal reason for wanting EMC2 on my machines goes beyond having every machine in my shop running the same interface. I have several machines and controls. The proprietary controls are very frustrating. It is not possible to trouble shoot problems or add functionality without taking the time (time is also money) to contact the control builder or the machine tool builder (integrator). After the machine is out of the warranty period the finger pointing starts. It is a control problem. It is the builders problem.
All I really know is it is MY problem when my machine is down and I cannot get anyone to respond without my PROVING to them the problem is in their system. With EMC2 I know it is my problem BUT I have the total package, control - electronics - machine, open to me. I don't need to call anyone and wait for them to call me back or wait for them to arrive at my shop.
That is first and foremost the reason to use EMC2.
Is their any other package like it?
I haven't seen any other packages like it. I will say I haven't looked very hard lately.
As for the ease of use and functionality EMC2 is getting better every day. I am just waiting for the day when someone says you can use a fanuc control because it will do the job just as good as EMC2 and it is just as easy to use. :)
My only real suggestion is as follows - get involved and help with whatever you see as a shortcoming. The developers are as helpful as can be. AFAIK, anyone involved with EMC2 will give time and effort to anyone trying to make EMC2 work.
having some fun now
thanks
Stuart

ckm

07-30-2008, 08:27 PM

So is this for a machine that does not machine parts? For FREE you must do some of the work. For LOTS of MONEY you can get a control program tailored to your needs... and that is what integrators do for a living. Once any control program is configured the usability should be stable... The fact that EMC is highly configurable means the integrator (you) must do some work on your part to set it up. I would be happy to integrate EMC into your project. I earn $75-$100 per hour depending on the project for those services. EMC is still free...

John

John,

Thanks for confirming my thesis, that EMC is designed by and for people who already know everything about machining and retrofiting machines. The problem is that there is an easier option that costs only $100 and that's what most people are opting for.

And I would argue that 'we like it complicated because it keeps our billable hours high' is not exactly in line with open source values.

Chris.

ynneb

07-30-2008, 09:34 PM

Great discussion guys. Stuart you are correct, the aim is to find out why people don't use EMC and therefore adjustments can be made so as to encourage people to use it.
I think most people are unaware how far Linux has come of recent. Bill has a lot to be worried about. Windows cant run linux programs, but Linux can run many windows programs. Windows cant read Linux directories, but Linux can read them. Linux has access to 1000s of free software packages. Windows software, mostly costs money. Linux is said to be more stable that windows (unverified)
Opinions are not flames unless they are only negative for the sake of been so, and have nothing to back them up.

I think EMC and Mach3 are pretty much equal in terms of learning curves, and there is just a perception that Mach3 is easier because it is windows based. Whats the difference between configuring for Mach3 and EMC.

Where Mach3 is better, is its screen adjustment ability. Once EMC addresses that problem they will be on equal par. Gee I wish I knew how to program, I would start an EMC breakoff. :)

Finally I think the EMC guys need to be commended for the brilliant work they have done up to date, freely sharing their source code too.

acondit

07-30-2008, 09:49 PM

I have to wear my flame-suit because I would like to stand next to Chris, for a minute. Everyone is making good and valid points. But I will try to take a wider view perspective on this. In my view its not Mach vs. EMC2, its MS vs. Linux. And hands down, like it or not, Billy's MS army is winning. Its not about what is best, its about market control and presence. Draw up a list of supporting vendors of software and hardware manufacturers that give support to Linux, or even Mac. Billy has done a great job in taking the lion's share. The larger army has larger support and ease and speed of obtaining supported solutions.

I would also argue, with which I feel there is little debate, that the ease of use (point and click) of the Windoze environment is much more condusive to trial and error approach than the command line typing of Linux.

Technically and capability (ridgid tapping and multi-axis interpolation reltionships), my hat is off to EMC2.

Interfacing and diversity of hardware (and glitz), my hat is off to Mach.

I'm now running for cover and keeping my head low (since I'm asking for it from both sides).

Since this is the EMC/Linux forum, maybe we should start a thread in the MACH/Windoze forum on why we wouldn't use Mach. (Personally, I am not going to waste my time.) If you want to use windows, as far as I'm concerned it is your loss and not mine.

My guess is that on diversity of hardware, actually EMC/EMC2 has it. Think Sherline to MAZAK, think mini-lathes to commercial CNC machines. Try hooking up a servo system in Mach where the loop is closed on the PC.

A lot of us, even those of us who learned on the unix systems, still use GUI's today on Linux.

So we disagree and we probably aren't going to change anybody's mind who is satisfied with their choices. How about we choose to spend our time improving our respective systems instead of bother each other? Oh, that's right windoze and Mach aren't open systems. Sorry about that.

Alan

ynneb

07-30-2008, 09:55 PM

One big crit I have about EMC is their mail based forum. Any emails I send to it bounce. It is hard to follow conversations, and is hard to search through.
I have offered to help them set up an online forum too, but have hit a wall. I was advised to email the EMC board, but the emails dont get through, or they just don't answer them.
Interestingly, the Artsoft forum I set up a few years ago, has more members (8200) than their mail based one that had a 3 year head start. The results of the poll clearly show people prefer online forums http://www.micropoll.com/akira/ShowResults?id=985627&mode=data and yet it seems like they are st in their ways and are resistant to change or giving what the majority want. Go figure !
I know this forum is here, but its not the same as a dedicated forum. I note Vectrics quick success, and how they implemented an online forum from day one.

EMC says they want helpers and contributors, and yet they only seem to want people with programming skills only.

Since this is the EMC/Linux forum, maybe we should start a thread in the MACH/Windoze forum on why we wouldn't use Mach.The reason we don't have such a question is because we know that people do use Mach3, I just wanted to now why people didnt use EMC as much, and hopefully highlight to the EMC guys where they/we could improve.
Its not a case of attacking EMC against Mach3, EMC people need not feel defensive, but it doesn't hurt to sit back and examine the path we are all going down, time to time. I encountered loads of resistance to the Artsoft forum when I initially set it up, and yet Art one told me, he sold the same amount of licences in the year that I set up the forum, as he did in the total previous 3 years. Surely that says something about online forums?

ynneb

07-30-2008, 10:17 PM

Personally I would love to see EMC become the number one choice. I would love to see the community become vibrant with new users, and even new software contributers. The more that join in the fun the more that people will contribute. The great thing is that the source code is open and therefore people can do their own stuff instead of begging for years and holding crossed fingers that a change might be implemented as with other software companies.

ynneb

07-30-2008, 10:21 PM

BTW Did I mention that I have loaded some of Vectrics software into Linux, under WINE, and it works a treat.

skullworks

07-30-2008, 10:50 PM

Its not hard to reach most of the EMC crew - Hop on irc.freenode.net #emc

There is usually a few around.

Direct communication in real time.

Pun intended. :)

123CNC

07-30-2008, 11:06 PM

I'm a strong proponent of both EMC2 and Mach. I'm not a strong proponent of monopolies. or BIG government. But in a capitalist system you only need to follow the money.

I'm not a Big fan of Billy and company. But he is a big part of my daily life, that is a simple fact. I personally feel that there is plenty of room for both, or rather many.

Yes, EMC2 is much more capable and flexible in its control architecture in how and where it may be implemented. That flexibility comes at a price of user friendliness, and ease of implementation. I personally favor flexibility. My hardware and interface diversity comment was aimed more at the platforms, Linux vs. M$, which coincidentally is also a benefit to Mach (think pendents, joysticks, and other input devices).

I will continue to use and support both EMC2 and Mach.

ynneb

07-30-2008, 11:25 PM

Its not hard to reach most of the EMC crew - Hop on irc.freenode.net #emc

There is usually a few around.

Direct communication in real time.

Problem with that is my real time (Australia) doesn't work with Europe and USA realtime :)

I started this section for EMC http://au.youtube.com/groups_videos?name=EMCCNC
You'd think they would put it on thier web site in a prominent place, and yet I see the last time the site was edited was 6 months ago. Last Updated ( Wednesday, 13 February 2008 )

Big John T

07-31-2008, 08:08 AM

I would love to see a standalone screen designer for EMC the same as Mach3 has.
This would be allow EAST creation of screens that people could customize for their setups.
A WYSIWYG screen editor.

Feel free to program one... Everyone would benefit that needs that I'm sure.

John

Big John T

07-31-2008, 08:15 AM

John,

Thanks for confirming my thesis, that EMC is designed by and for people who already know everything about machining and retrofiting machines. The problem is that there is an easier option that costs only $100 and that's what most people are opting for.

And I would argue that 'we like it complicated because it keeps our billable hours high' is not exactly in line with open source values.

Chris.

Where did I say that please quote that for me!

I make that much per hour but not because of complications but for what I do... I build machinery. I've never installed a commercial EMC system only free ones. After trying EMC I found it very easy...

If your all for easy and have the $100 why are you in this thread?

John

Big John T

07-31-2008, 08:17 AM

ynneb

07-31-2008, 08:22 AM

I would guess that "they" are busy making EMC better instead of trying to "sell" free software... Thats the strange part, its free and yet people prefer to buy other software. Why? (I know why)

Big John T

07-31-2008, 08:30 AM

One big crit I have about EMC is their mail based forum. Any emails I send to it bounce. It is hard to follow conversations, and is hard to search through.
I have offered to help them set up an online forum too, but have hit a wall. I was advised to email the EMC board, but the emails dont get through, or they just don't answer them.
Interestingly, the Artsoft forum I set up a few years ago, has more members (8200) than their mail based one that had a 3 year head start. The results of the poll clearly show people prefer online forums http://www.micropoll.com/akira/ShowResults?id=985627&mode=data and yet it seems like they are st in their ways and are resistant to change or giving what the majority want. Go figure !
I know this forum is here, but its not the same as a dedicated forum. I note Vectrics quick success, and how they implemented an online forum from day one.

So what is stopping you from creating an online forum?

EMC says they want helpers and contributors, and yet they only seem to want people with programming skills only.

I can say for a fact that this statement is not correct!

The reason we don't have such a question is because we know that people do use Mach3, I just wanted to now why people didnt use EMC as much, and hopefully highlight to the EMC guys where they/we could improve.
Its not a case of attacking EMC against Mach3, EMC people need not feel defensive, but it doesn't hurt to sit back and examine the path we are all going down, time to time. I encountered loads of resistance to the Artsoft forum when I initially set it up, and yet Art one told me, he sold the same amount of licences in the year that I set up the forum, as he did in the total previous 3 years. Surely that says something about online forums?

I don't think you can compare a commercial product with an open source project. Artsoft is in business to make money! The more exposure the more sales.

I can understand why you encountered loads of resistance from Artsoft you are a bit pushy and quite demanding that things are done your way, nothing personal just an observation.

John

Big John T

07-31-2008, 08:35 AM

Thats the strange part, its free and yet people prefer to buy other software. Why? (I know why)

Oh, you are awake... I'm a people yet I prefer free...

John

cyclestart

07-31-2008, 08:46 AM

Benny

If the mailing-list is giving grief try the method discussed here
http://www.cnczone.com/forums/showthread.php?t=60399

I mention needing to be pre-registered with the mailing-list but may be mistaken about that part.

ynneb

07-31-2008, 08:48 AM

I can understand why you encountered loads of resistance from Artsoft you are a bit pushy and quite demanding that things are done your way, nothing personal just an observation. Thats because my way is the right way :)
Besides I hate committees that talk lots but achieve little. Sometimes a leader is not a bad thing.
I promise I dont take your comment personally, in fact its a compliment. Im glad that my pushyness has allowed me to run great CNC BBQ events that heaps have befitted from.Im glad that i didnt bow to the vocal minority who didnt want a mach3 online forum. ( I was vindicated there too) I am glad that I have run many competitions in this forum that have not only helped the sponsors, but has given users free software and hardware. I am glad I pushed for a Australian section in this forum, helping us to network well. etc.
Actually the resistance wasnt from Artsoft, they were happy with the results. Actually pushy is not accurate, I have lots of ideas and just want to make them heard. I would describe my self more accurately as "annoying".
You seem defensive in your comments. Why? Its not a bad thing asking questions or expressing ideas, even if they appear controversial.

Oh, you are awake... I'm a people yet I prefer free... Me too that why I want to see EMC excel, and are asking questions about why it isnt.

Dan Falck

07-31-2008, 09:02 AM

Problem with that is my real time (Australia) doesn't work with Europe and USA realtime :)

I started this section for EMC http://au.youtube.com/groups_videos?name=EMCCNC
You'd think they would put it on thier web site in a prominent place, and yet I see the last time the site was edited was 6 months ago. Last Updated ( Wednesday, 13 February 2008 )

OK, let's sort out who 'Them' is....

The whole thing is being done by people volunteering their time. The website has been set up as a kind of place holder, where you can go to other, more dynamic links-like the wiki. It's very easy for users/developers to edit the wiki. As a result, most of the interesting stuff is happening here:
http://wiki.linuxcnc.org/cgi-bin/emcinfo.pl

I usually go to this page, daily, to see what's been added:

http://wiki.linuxcnc.org/cgi-bin/emcinfo.pl?RecentChanges

As for the IRC channels, have you been on them yet? You might be surprised at who is on at the same time as you. EMC2 is not just a US or European endevour.

As for a forum vs mailing list, I favor the mailing list, because I keep all the emails in digest form on my computer and can search for info at will. That's just my prefernce.

I'm glad that you're interested in EMC. Just remember, it's being worked on by volunteers and they tend to like to work on things that interest them. If you want a particular feature, you need to convince someone more skilled at programming to create that feature, or else learn how to create it.

Thanks,
Dan

ynneb

07-31-2008, 09:06 AM

Dan, I agree 100% and I wanted to volunteer to manage the site along with the existing people.
I also understand your reason for mail based too. But that doesn't help late comers like me. Also I don't want to change anything, just ADD to it.

Big John T

07-31-2008, 09:12 AM

Thats because my way is the right way :)

I'm glad you have a sense of humor, it will make it easier for me to convince you that my way is the best way for me :)

Besides I hate committees that talk lots but achieve little. Sometimes a leader is not a bad thing.

I don't like committees either, I think that they are a big time waster. I'm sure glad that EMC is not a committee just a group of dedicated people.

I promise I dont take your comment personally, in fact its a compliment. Im glad that my pushyness has allowed me to run great CNC BBQ events that heaps have befitted from.Im glad that i didnt bow to the vocal minority who didnt want a mach3 online forum. ( I was vindicated there too) I am glad that I have run many competitions in this forum that have not only helped the sponsors, but has given users free software and hardware. I am glad I pushed for a Australian section in this forum, helping us to network well. etc.
Actually the resistance wasnt from Artsoft, they were happy with the results. Actually pushy is not accurate, I have lots of ideas and just want to make them heard. I would describe my self more accurately as "annoying".
You seem defensive in your comments. Why? Its not a bad thing asking questions or expressing ideas, even if they appear controversial.

Me too that why I want to see EMC excel, and are asking questions about why it isnt.

Sometimes the proper words fail me and what I type comes out that way.

I must get some work done :)

John

rugludallur

07-31-2008, 09:32 AM

I think creating custom screens/panels in EMC2 is actually very easy and very flexible.
Using PyVCP anyone who can do HTML should be able to understand the XML syntax and create custom UIs, if people can't do HTML I don't think they should be designing UIs.

For example here is one I did for my Plasma Cutter, everything on the right side is custom controls for a THC.

dallur (http://dallur.com/index.php?id=44&tx_lzgallery_pi1[subg]=10&tx_lzgallery_pi1[showUid]=41&tx_lzgallery_pi1[old]=5x5x26&tx_lzgallery_pi1[pic]=33&tx_lzgallery_pi1[colrows]=1x1&tx_lzgallery_pi1[maxwidth]=1024)

Here is the wiki page for pyVCP which shows examples of easy custom UI components.
http://wiki.linuxcnc.org/cgi-bin/emcinfo.pl?PyVCP

Hope this helps

Jarl

acondit

07-31-2008, 10:00 AM

The reason we don't have such a question is because we know that people do use Mach3, I just wanted to now why people didnt use EMC as much, and hopefully highlight to the EMC guys where they/we could improve.
Its not a case of attacking EMC against Mach3, EMC people need not feel defensive, but it doesn't hurt to sit back and examine the path we are all going down, time to time. I encountered loads of resistance to the Artsoft forum when I initially set it up, and yet Art one told me, he sold the same amount of licences in the year that I set up the forum, as he did in the total previous 3 years. Surely that says something about online forums?

Benny,

People do use EMC2 as well, and this is the EMC/Linux Forum. If they didn't their would be no discussion. My point is that I have no problem with discussing EMC's short comings -- that is how improvement takes place.

We users of EMC have our reasons why we don't use MACH. If this forum is the proper place to discuss why users of MACH don't use EMC then by that logic, the proper thing is for the EMC users to go to the MACH forum and discuss why we don't/won't use MACH/WINDOZE.

The fact that something is done one way in windoze and another way in linux doesn't automatically say one is good and one is bad. If I can enter a single letter command and avoid two or three layers of point and click menus, I may consider that a good thing.

My point regarding Mach/Windoze is that if someone wants to use Mach and Windoze, the proper place for their discussions is in that forum. This forum is for people who want to use EMC/Linux. If someone using Mach decides to use EMC, I wouldn't expect them to ask for help in the Mach/Windoze forum. To come here and lambast EMC and praise Mach is counter productive. It is basically a religious issue and until someone is dissatisfied with their current religion (MACH/WINDOZE) they aren't going to come looking for a new religion (EMC/LINUX). Once they start asking for help in figuring out how to use EMC we are here, ready and willing to try and help.

Alan

acondit

07-31-2008, 10:09 AM

EMC says they want helpers and contributors, and yet they only seem to want people with programming skills only.

Not true, they want people to help with documentation and testing as well. However, I will admit that for testing, people who can program are an asset because they can think about a problem logically and if you are testing a logical approach is very helpful.

Alan

acondit

07-31-2008, 10:12 AM

Benny,

Your survey is not very useful because it is biased. It discourages people from taking the survey who have actually used and continue to use EMC successfully from taking the survey.

Alan

ynneb

07-31-2008, 05:47 PM

Your survey is not very useful because it is biased. It discourages people from taking the survey who have actually used and continue to use EMC successfully from taking the survey.
But I want to know why people dont use emc. With the results we can then make changes that will encourage more users. Im not sure it discourages users to participate since 80 have done so already http://www.micropoll.com/akira/ShowResults?id=985627&mode=data.
Have you read the results?

acondit

07-31-2008, 06:18 PM

But I want to know why people dont use emc. With the results we can then make changes that will encourage more users. Im not sure it discourages users to participate since 80 have done so already http://www.micropoll.com/akira/ShowResults?id=985627&mode=data.
Have you read the results?

Yes, but you don't really know anything for this type of survey. It is not a random sample, and not even guaranteed to be a sample of non-users. Some of the questions look like they are wanting responses from people who have tried EMC and are not using it others look like they are speaking to people who have succeeded in getting it to work.

I used to write software for a living, and I found out that you could spend all your time trying to modify your software to attract those who hadn't yet bought the software. Usually that only resulted in more requests for features and not more sales.

In my book you are better off listening to those who use it and meeting their needs. They are using it and, therefore, have spent the time to become familiar with it. When they tell you something could be improved, you know that it is likely if you respond to the need that they will appreciate it. We finally started telling people, OK you want this feature, sign the contract and then we will add the feature. The old put your money where your mouth is idea. I know EMC is not a vendor sold product, but time is money.

I have implemented EMC on a couple of machines and it is not that big of a deal to do so. So, I really don't want to listen to a bunch of people tell me why they don't do it. They have made their choice and that is fine. I would rather spend my time helping people who are interested in trying it solve problems that are real than flogging a features list for people who have already made another choice.

Alan

ynneb

07-31-2008, 06:42 PM

Good points Alan, however I disagree.
I guess we are all different in our approach to things and our differences are what makes a complete package in lifes endeavors.
Social evolution.

acondit

07-31-2008, 07:19 PM

Good points Alan, however I disagree.
I guess we are all different in our approach to things and our differences are what makes a complete package in lifes endeavors.
Social evolution.

You are entitled to disagree, but since no one is paying the developers to write the software, if you don't understand where they are coming from, you aren't likely to have much influence on the choices that they make.

Alan

dertsap

07-31-2008, 09:59 PM

i know that linux has a dedicated following but there are those of us who are limited in our linux knowledge who would like to see a well organized dedicated site , i've ran into many walls trying to install softwares and such . i couldn t count how many times i had installed linux then uninstalled it and reinstalled windows for the simple fact i don t want to be smashing my head on the keyboard out of constant frustration

for the linux guys who hate windows , the scattered documentation is going to be just fine but for the windows guys who want to try and run linux it is a living hell .
the only reason i have entertained using linux is to use emc which is a nice program , i have 2 hard drives on my shop pc , xp on one ubuntu on the other

i think the fact you want to spend your free time to help them organize their stuff is great , someone has to :)

epineh

08-01-2008, 04:45 AM

How about a dedicated EMC forum, something like this (CNCZone) ?

I for one can't really get into the mail based lists, I just struggle to get the info I need, I am sure there is a lot of info available, I just find a forum format so much easier and quicker to use. I tried going on the yahoo PCB groups for a while but got frustrated with the format and gave up.

I guess what would be helpful is to have "build logs" as such with people going through their EMC setup's, kinda like the DIY router builds here, this way there would be a diverse range of setup's for people to read through.

Would this need another forum ? Maybe this could be achieved in the EMC section on the zone, I don't know. I intend to post an EMC build log soon, but I am having too much fun playing with my machine :D That and Frozen Bubble...

Russell.

P.Passuello

08-01-2008, 07:15 AM

Interesting thread and it raises some interesting questions. I currently run Turbocnc and have been looking into EMC2 as an alternative to this because I need to slave a stepper on my Y axis but to my surprise it seems that EMC2 doesn't do this. I am now in the position of figuring out what I gain from the change. It seems to me that the last thing I need in my garage sitting in a pile of dust is a high spec computer when I can use one of the many throw away 486's I have laying about and only need to run dos. This is why I haven't moved to Mach3.

When it comes to building your own CNC router you have a very steep learning curve to get things going. You first need to build the router, then figure out which stepper or servo motors you will need. You need to learn to to draw in Cad then use Cam software to make the Gcode. You need to learn electronics to build your controller and finally the software to drive it. You have to install the software on your pc and setup it up to work with your controller. Human beings being what they are will usually take the easy way out and will stick with what they are familiar with, in most cases this is Windows or DOS. This is why I think that a lot of people avoid EMC. If they have bought Mach3 they are unlikely to change to even look at EMC. If like me they have used Turbocnc they may look at EMC but there has to be a gain to make it worth the trouble of changing and this is where I am sitting at the moment.
There are not many hobbys that require the learning of this many different disciplines. 2 Years later I'm building my 3rd machine and am still learning and making mistakes as quickly as I can.

Just my thoughts anyway.

Cheers
Peter

samco

08-01-2008, 07:39 AM

There is a gantry config you can look at that slaves 2 axis.

http://cvs.linuxcnc.org/cgi-bin/cvsweb.cgi/emc2/configs/stepper-gantry/

I have used dapper on a 400mhz pentium II and it worked quite well. A 1ghz pent III class would work just fine.

sam

Interesting thread and it raises some interesting questions. I currently run Turbocnc and have been looking into EMC2 as an alternative to this because I need to slave a stepper on my Y axis but to my surprise it seems that EMC2 doesn't do this. I am now in the position of figuring out what I gain from the change. It seems to me that the last thing I need in my garage sitting in a pile of dust is a high spec computer when I can use one of the many throw away 486's I have laying about and only need to run dos. This is why I haven't moved to Mach3.

When it comes to building your own CNC router you have a very steep learning curve to get things going. You first need to build the router, then figure out which stepper or servo motors you will need. You need to learn to to draw in Cad then use Cam software to make the Gcode. You need to learn electronics to build your controller and finally the software to drive it. You have to install the software on your pc and setup it up to work with your controller. Human beings being what they are will usually take the easy way out and will stick with what they are familiar with, in most cases this is Windows or DOS. This is why I think that a lot of people avoid EMC. If they have bought Mach3 they are unlikely to change to even look at EMC. If like me they have used Turbocnc they may look at EMC but there has to be a gain to make it worth the trouble of changing and this is where I am sitting at the moment.
There are not many hobbys that require the learning of this many different disciplines. 2 Years later I'm building my 3rd machine and am still learning and making mistakes as quickly as I can.

Just my thoughts anyway.

Cheers
Peter

epineh

08-01-2008, 07:40 AM

I am now in the position of figuring out what I gain from the change. It seems to me that the last thing I need in my garage sitting in a pile of dust is a high spec computer when I can use one of the many throw away 486's I have laying about and only need to run dos.

Hi Peter, I also used TurboCNC, and one of the biggest gain's I noticed would have to be constant velocity cutting, things just go so much faster. This won't really help you decide between Mach or EMC as they both do it.

Cheers.

Russell.

cyclestart

08-01-2008, 07:50 AM

It seems to me that the last thing I need in my garage sitting in a pile of dust is a high spec computer when I can use one of the many throw away 486's I have laying about and only need to run dos. This is why I haven't moved to Mach3.
Some users run emc on computers that would pass for dumpster grade around here. The kind of stuff that turns up at garage sales for next to nothing. PII's and PIII's are near give away items. Might depend where you live.

Human beings being what they are will usually take the easy way out and will stick with what they are familiar with, in most cases this is Windows or DOS. This is why I think that a lot of people avoid EMC.

The amount of linux knowledge needed to install the ubuntu distributed by linuxcnc is minimal. Running emc also requires little linux knowledge. Of course the temptation to put ubunu to other uses than running emc is hard to resist. That's a good thing imo :)

samco

08-01-2008, 07:59 AM

This is an extreme but.. It just kept chugging away.. (this was a test to make sure the new real time kernel handled virtual memory correctly)

http://www.electronicsam.com/images/KandT/testing/pent4-26ghz1.png

ynneb

08-01-2008, 08:10 AM

Wow that really is an extreme Samco. did you run a cut with it, or just sim?

BTW I did a fresh Ubuntu install today on another computer ( Not the EMC Ubuntu) and I installed EMC seperately. Trouble is EMC crashes immediately after the splash screen. Is this a known issue?

samco

08-01-2008, 08:16 AM

It was one of the stepper configs.. not hooked to any hardware. (emc will tell you when it is not keeping up)

I forgot to say that this was a 2.6ghz pent 4.

sam

Ray Henry

08-01-2008, 08:20 AM

Hi Peter.

Good thoughts all. Let me pick out and quote a couple.
There are not many hobbys that require the learning of this many different disciplines. 2 Years later I'm building my 3rd machine and am still learning and making mistakes as quickly as I can.

Exactly. Congratulations. Your determination to get satisfactory results at this "hobby" is exactly what it takes. The culture I grew up in called this ability sticktuitiveness. Problem solving and learning from experience are critical to your CNC success.

They also had another saying, "beating a dead horse." The open mindedness that allows brainstorming to go on long enough to clarify possible alternatives to a problem that can't be solved using the current approach is also a critical ability.
I currently run Turbocnc and have been looking into EMC2 as an alternative to this because I need to slave a stepper on my Y axis but to my surprise it seems that EMC2 doesn't do this.

I believe that if you keep digging you'll find that EMC2 can do this rather easily. At the HAL layer you can simply ask the stepgen outputs to go to two drives if you can't simply wire the signals to two drives from a single pair of parport pins.

The complexities tend to come in and the questions are raised when you want to home each of these motors separately and have a rigid beam or some such IMO nonsense between. The number of possible EMC2 solutions to this issue range all the way to a custom kinematics file that will allow you to define the relationship between XYZ and each of your motors.

I must confess I'm not supposed to post here because the idea of this survey was to get info from non-emc-users. (Talk about asking for useless and biased answers.)

Ray Henry

08-01-2008, 08:47 AM

I did a fresh Ubuntu install today on another computer ( Not the EMC Ubuntu) and I installed EMC seperately. Trouble is EMC crashes immediately after the splash screen. Is this a known issue?

I suspect that what you've done is added a new real-time kernel to the stock Ubuntu install but then tried to run it using the old kernel. Linux is suppose to find the correct kernel if you reboot after the EMC2 install has completed. You will continue to have this problem crop up from time to time as Ubuntu updates it kernel and you install those.

Big John T

08-01-2008, 08:48 AM

ynneb

08-01-2008, 09:36 AM

samco

08-01-2008, 09:39 AM

This is a poll?

;)

Big John T

08-01-2008, 10:33 AM

gmfoster

08-01-2008, 11:04 AM

Well the last question is listed as a fact but is only an opinon.

Also it is obvious fropm the answers that this poll is being answered primarly by EMC users and those that want to use it.

So even if the questions were asked better(not that they are bad) the results don't mean much as it isn't reaching its desired target.

Garry

cadmonkey

08-01-2008, 12:54 PM

EMC2 happy user here - but gmfoster is spot on - it's like a political poll asking a bunch of war protesters if we should be in Iraq. But there's no way you're going to post an EMC2 poll in the mach forum either - you need to post individual requests in each of the target group forums (like benchtop mills, routers, etc.) and ask what they would like to see in EMC and be realistic about the features and welcome people to add comments - but also ask if they have downloaded the current free cd iso and tried the software. Asking someone who has only ever drank Coca Cola why they don't drink Pepsi is just as useless. Theres no data to be gained.

I'll reserve my positive EMC comments for appropriate situations.

dertsap

08-01-2008, 12:56 PM

acondit

08-01-2008, 01:03 PM

I have noticed it is just the EMC users who are sensitive about the questions. Its like thier football team has been slagged off. Yet I also notice lots of valuble contributions from non users. If those sensitive users could stop thinking the world is against them and just take a few moments to READ the results of the poll, they just might learn something.
It embarrassingly pathetic !!!!

You mean like the question:
Does the fact that Linux doesn't have many CAD or Cam programs, turn you away from using EMC 2 ?

The survey reports:
Key Facts

86.42% chose the following options :

No
Yes

Least chosen option 13.58% :

I would still use it knowing all this.

The survey shows that 47 said it wouldn't affect their decision and 11 said that they would use it anyway, but the analysis of the survey thinks that the answers that should be combined are yes and no.

Face it the survey is flawed and the analysis of the survey is worse.

The only question that is at all helpful is the fact that many of the respondents would like to see an online forum. Maybe this is a "Field of Dreams" if you create it they will come. I personally would agree that a forum (properly setup and run) could be a real benefit to the EMC community, but the lack of it will not stop my use of EMC or my attempts to help others here when I can and I am not really looking for another forum to join.

Maybe we should talk to Paul about setting up some sub forums under EMC, e.g., Basic Configuration Questions, 4th Axis Issues, Customization Issues, Bugs or other problems.

Alan

Kipper

08-01-2008, 05:22 PM

I had a reply but had to wait too long for the ads to load....Pisses me off!!

ynneb

08-01-2008, 06:17 PM

I had a reply but had to wait too long for the ads to load....Pisses me off!! But you have 487 posts to your name, cant be that bad.
94000 members (The biggest cnc site on the web) the adds cant be that bad. Out of interest, who pays for the massive amount of hosting required? Have you ever donated any money? :)
All the more reason for a EMC dedicated forum to be put on the official web site, along with no adds.

The poll stands. Too bad if some don't like it. If anyone else wants to conduct a "fairer" poll
nothing is stopping them.

Just remember, every time this poll bounces, it goes to the top of the daily posts list, and more people see talk about EMC. Thats a good thing. If those who think its unfair dont like it, they should stop bouncing it. :) This thread has one of the highest reads to do with EMC in quite a while. Even controversy promotes a product. I can guarantee lost of people would now be wondering about what EMC is, that didn't even know it existed b4 hand.

cadmonkey

08-01-2008, 07:03 PM

Just remember, every time this poll bounces, it goes to the top of the daily posts list, and more people see talk about EMC. Thats a good thing. If those who think its unfair dont like it, they should stop bouncing it. :) This thread has one of the highest reads to do with EMC in quite a while. Even controversy promotes a product. I can guarantee lots of people would now be wondering about what EMC is, that didn't even know it existed b4 hand.

Dude!! You gave away the secret!! (nuts)

BOING!!

BTW - I am working on a dedicated portion of my site which will address installation and setup of EMC2 on a benchtop 3 to 4 axis mill - I hope to go into the detail that Hoss does though maybe without the video - I'm working on getting a D-SLR not a camcorder anytime soon so video is out for me unless I can scrounge up the CVS cam - that did pretty good short NTSC format videos that I could sling on You-Tube.

If someone writes the pages for say a lathe or a router or anything else that would be common for the 'zone' feel free to contact me - preferably through the website until I pony up for a paid membership here and can have more than 30 PM's at a time - and I'll consider hosting it - I've got a bit of freespace available. Screenshots and whatnot are highly encouraged. If you can hit some videos and provide You-Tube links that'd probably be a good idea too. :)

P.Passuello

08-02-2008, 06:42 AM

There is a gantry config you can look at that slaves 2 axis.

http://cvs.linuxcnc.org/cgi-bin/cvsweb.cgi/emc2/configs/stepper-gantry/

I have used dapper on a 400mhz pentium II and it worked quite well. A 1ghz pent III class would work just fine.

sam

Thanks for the link. Had a look but as I find as with most Linux technical areas I couldn't find that you were trying to show me, only a pile of links that lead to more links. I stick by my original observation. I am a Human Being and by nature am Lazy. I will take the easy path. I regularly spend hours reading manuals and solving problems on my PC's and like to try new software so an no stranger to trouble shooting. I have no objection to Linux but I need to be treated like a windows user and have things explained to me in an easy to use form, in english.

Hi Peter, I also used TurboCNC, and one of the biggest gain's I noticed would have to be constant velocity cutting, things just go so much faster. This won't really help you decide between Mach or EMC as they both do it.

Cheers.

Russell.

Constant velocity sounds like it might be well worth giving it a try. Cheers

Some users run emc on computers that would pass for dumpster grade around here. The kind of stuff that turns up at garage sales for next to nothing. PII's and PIII's are near give away items. Might depend where you live.

It is good to know that the PC spec needed is quite low by todays standard and everyday that goes by the throw away PC is getting higher spec. Your observation that EMC2 is relatively easy to set up and I don't need to know how Linux works to use EMC is really good but the impression that it is going to be hard is enough to put people off even trying it.

Finally thanks ynneb. As a non EMC user your survey post has bought it back to my attention and at the risk of sticking my neck out I think it is a good idea. The new improved easy to install version sounds just the ticket to attract more users but I had a quick look at the forum link that Bubba posted and found I was unable to to find anything in the subject of 'axis setup' or 'pendant' when I did a search other than irrelevant dribble. After 1/2 an hour I still don't know if I can use a pendant with EMC and will need to read the manual to find out. I think an easy to use forum like we have here on the zone is needed.
When I get a bit of time I will give EMC2 ago.

Cheers
Peter

gmfoster

08-02-2008, 08:23 AM

And then there is the question as to whether EMC community have any desire to attract those that don't like it anyway.

I suspect that it is already used in more shops that actually make money than Mach...Not that I do.

And I have a Mach license and think it a wonderful product. One of the main attractions of EMC is to get away from windoze. And that isn't because I dislike the product "Windows" but have been so hampered with the activation and ongoing WGA issues that I would love to put them behind me. And this has been on what should be totally legal systems. I have the product discs on some of them and I am sure the laptops weren't bought without Windows....What I am trying to say is EMC running on Linux isn't a negative but to me is actually an incentive or a plus if you will.

Garry

cyclestart

08-02-2008, 08:30 AM

Thanks for the link. Had a look but as I find as with most Linux technical areas I couldn't find that you were trying to show me, only a pile of links that lead to more links.

Yes, there is some truth to that. I've been using emc (now emc2) and linux from the days before there was a thing called Ubuntu. Or at least before Ubuntu was known to more than a few. Maybe even predating an easy install known as BDI. A very clever guy did the install on an old version of RedHat. To this day I still stumble across new bits of emc info. Documentation has been a weak spot for linux projects in general. Part of the reason for this is things are simply evolving more quickly in the linux world. Also the nature of open source is more loosely knit at times. Some amount of anarchy goes with th territory. The situation is better than it was a few years ago.

Your observation that EMC2 is relatively easy to set up and I don't need to know how Linux works to use EMC is really good but the impression that it is going to be hard is enough to put people off even trying it.

Ubuntu is point-and-click simple imo. Possibly a familiarity with linux distorts my view slightly. However emc is powerful software and does have a learning curve.
Depends how complex your machine is. The knowledge needed to use it is emc knowledge more than linux knowledge. I didn't find MasterCam easy to learn either despite being familiar with Windows. Emc has abilities I'll probably never understand or even need to understand.