I have no specific working envelope. This whole idea started with using it to make a RC airplane and has evolved into countless possibilities. I dont know exactly what I might need it for, so I am trying to limit myself as little as possible. For example I'd like a fourth axis and the rigidity and power to mill steel or other harder metals.

I've done my reading and found companies like Tormach and IH to be the top of the heap. Trouble is a whole setup (with tooling, stand, etc.) is far above $10K for these machines.

Are there other companies that produce decently capable mills, even if they dont approach a Tormach? Is there a way to do a more expensive mill for cheaper? Budget is workable if it is worth it.

What kind of parts do you want to make?

Part size, work envelope etc...

A Taig is a very formidable machine, it is a little workhorse.

Please give more detail.

Jeff Alessi

I have no specific working envelope. I don't know exactly what projects I will dream up. I can imagine anything from little RC airplane parts up to building a whole 'nother mill. So I am trying to limit myself as little as possible. I'd like the widest possible range of capability (for the money). The advice here seems to be to get the biggest mill you can, because there is no such thing as too much space.

Eventually I'd like to sell some of the things I create, if that makes a difference. Not huge runs or anything, just a little here and there. I don't know if a flood will be useful for me, so I'm not sure about sealed. And I am limited to 110 V, a service upgrade is out of the question.

I will check out Taig, though. Thanks.

My three biggest concerns are:
1: Bed size
2: Range of millable materials
3: Accuracy/Repeatability

Take a look at SyilAmerica (http://www.syilamerica.com/product_h4.asp).

Alan

You're right that IH and Tormach are tops for 'benchtop' mills, they're on my wish list.
The next size down at the moment would be the CNC'ed X3.
You can check out Syil America (http://www.syilamerica.com/product_h4.asp) but they seem to be out of stock right now.
Hmm, maybe they are getting ready for the latest and greatest, the X4.
Syil Canada (http://www.syilcanada.com/?p=products&id=x4) has them.
You'd have to call to see what the shipping would be, the checkout wouldn't provide an amount when I tried it.
Hoss

Thanks guys.

Yes I was leaning twords the Syil but I cant get a quote for a super X3....

Anyone know how much a well prepared super X3 setup runs?

Is the X4 worth the wait? I've even heard rumors about an X7 as well.

I've even heard rumors about an X7 as well.

:D

7-axis mini-mill?

-------------------------------------------

I'm holding out for the 4x4:

Dual spindle, 4-axis each.

(just playing :) )


.

The X4 looks awesome, but all of it's features and the state of the dollar may well put it into the same price category as the Tormach once it arrives.

I think most people would say the Syil X3/Super X3 is likely your candidate for an overall balance of capacity, material capability, accuracy, and general-purpose usefulness in that price range.
At a much lower cost and with higher spindle speeds and other advantages geared toward smaller/finer parts, a Taig would likely much better suit specifically making R/C airplane parts exclusively, but if you are looking for overall open-ended functionality it isn't your answer.

Stepper Monkey always seems to hit the nail very squarely on the head.

You can cut wood all day long for 99% of all your projects with a two horse power Skilsaw.

On the rare occasion you cut down a tree, there is a need for a Log Cutting Saw Mill.

Would you purchase a Saw Mill or farm that job out?

There are tools for every job, just like a lid for every garbage can.

We have a Bridgeport and several small mill / CNC machines.

Ninety nine percent of the time we use the smaller machines IE "Taig's or Roland".

For our applications the small machines are much better suited than the Bridgeport.

Just consider the spindle speed alone, that could be a big issue.

You might consider the power consumption for running a larger machine. it might effect the overall cost of finished goods.

Our business would fail without the small machines, It could function very well without a Bridgeport.

Taking the time to evaluate your work will save you money and headaches.

Jeff...

I am trying to limit myself as little as possible. For example I'd like a fourth axis and the rigidity and power to mill steel or other harder metals.


If you're going to spend $6000, get a mill that will handle 100% of your needs.
Don't forget to check Ebay (http://business.search-desc.ebay.com/cnc-mill_Mills_W0QQcatrefZC12QQfromZR41QQftsZ2QQsacatZ12584), you may find a great deal if you're close enough.
There are some round columns available close to you're price range but lets not go there.
The Super X4 comes in around $5500 (http://www.syilcanada.com/store/product_info.php?products_id=40&osCsid=5d456bc9586ce3970f47086418c1f754)
up north and they are phasing out the X3, special order only.
Might be tough locating one now.
You could go the DIY route as kits are available for the CNC conversion (http://www.cncfusion.com/smallmill1.html) but it's easier to get a turnkey.
Syil America still have their complete Super X3 conversion kit (http://www.syilamerica.com/catalog/product_info.php?cPath=25&products_id=31) for $2195, add a Grizzly Tools SX3 (http://www.grizzly.com/products/6-x-21-Mill-Drill/G0619) or Harbor Freight X3 (http://www.harborfreight.com/cpi/ctaf/Displayitem.taf?itemnumber=93885)
and the total is about $3250 - 3500.
KDNtool (http://www.kdntool.com/userfiles/X3S_1ab.jpg) looks like they may have an X3, contact them.

Thanks everyone, very informative.

Stepper, I don't know what it is but every one of your posts I've read around here has been clear, to the point, and informative. Cheers man.:cheers:

Are the HF and Grizzly versions of the Syil just as good? Or is it all really the same mill under different labels? As long as it's a bolt on conversion I might as well do that and save a bit of cash.

Sectrix,

If the X3 is your mill of choice, Look at the CNC Fusion kit.

The Grizzly fit and finish is better than the Harbor Freight.

I think Harbor Freight offers free shipping to there retail stores, that could add up to a 150 dollars saved if one is near your home.

There is about 1,200 dollar price differential between CNC Fusion and the Syil kit

The CNC Fusion kit only has the hardware portion of the kit.

Purchasing the missing components from Keling "steppers, Drivers and power supply" would net you about a $700.00 dollar savings!

http://www.cncfusion.com/smallmill1.html

Both the Syil and the Fusion kits are stepper motor equipped.

Servo's will add between three and four hundred more to the price.

Current stepper motor technology is very reliable, 90 plus percent of the bench mill type CNC machines manufactured today feature stepper motors.

Jeff...

You might want to double check with Cncfusion, there don't seem to be any motors included in any of their kits (http://www.cncfusion.com/images/X3mounts/Kit%20photos/X3photos.html)."Stepper motor shown for reference only."
The Syil kit includes the motors, drivers, power supply, wiring and hardware as well so it seems like an easy route.

Hoss you are right about the kit being complete.

However purchasing drivers, steppers and power supply from Keling would save almost seven hundred dollars!

Thats alot of groceries.

Jeff...

Forget groceries, that's a lot of gasoline.
Well a few gallons anyway.:)

jeffs right sectrix,
you can save some gas money if you do a little more DIY.
Keling has a kit for the X3 (http://www.kelinginc.net/Three34XCNCPackage.html) that would go with the cncfusion kit.
you'll just need some wiring and a case to house it all.

Anyone know how much accuracy is gained with going with the CNC fusion
"Small-Mill Deluxe CNC kit PREMIUM BALLSCREWS" for $949 verses the
"Small-Mill CNC kit #4 - X-Y-Z with BALLSCREWS" for $569?

Are there any other benefits with the more expensive kit?

Thanks.

Anyone know how much accuracy is gained with going with the CNC fusion
"Small-Mill Deluxe CNC kit PREMIUM BALLSCREWS" for $949 verses the
"Small-Mill CNC kit #4 - X-Y-Z with BALLSCREWS" for $569?

Are there any other benefits with the more expensive kit?

Thanks.

From the photo on the website, it looks like the lower cost BALLSCREWS (http://www.cncfusion.com/images/X3mounts/Kit%20photos/CIMG4961.JPG)are not ground (black color).

The higher priced BALLSCREWS (http://www.cncfusion.com/images/X3mounts/ABBA%20ballscrew%20kit/3-14-08/IMG_1102.JPG)look ground, to me.


.

kanton

Standard Kit: .004 in./ft. accuracy


Premium Kit: .001 in./ft. or better accuracy

Angular contact thrust bearings for X-Y axis

HI All,

I’M a Hobby Guy so I’d never pay $4-7K for a hobby machine, no matter how pretty it is.

Let’s see now:

A very nice Taig 2027ER CNC Machine costs $2355.
A very nice Tormach PCNC-1100 costs $6800 + $845 for the stand and $827 for PC & Monitor

I can buy a Bridgeport Boss 4 for $1500 (I did), then spend an additional $1000 for the enjoyment of retrofitting it.(I did)

It can be done with a few tools and a hand drill & the excellent instructions written in a series of articles By Roland Friestad for Home Shop Machinist Magazine. There is also a mountain of information & help available here on the Zone. Not forgetting the fine products provided by Mariss, Art, Tom C. and many others that make an inexpensive retrofit possible.

In my left Hand I have the Taig CNC and $145.
In my right hand I have a Modernized Boss 4 or 5

Which hand will you pick??

In my left hand I have a Modernized Boss 4 or 5 & $5000.
In my right hand I have the Tormach PCNC-1100 with Stand.

Which hand will you pick??

I like to build benchtop mills for fun , In fact I’m building a couple now
(see thread 42227)
but do all the demanding work on my mighty retrofitted Bridgeports!



W.Smith

In my left hand I have a worn out Bridgeport Boss 4 that I paid $1500 for, plus $800 shipping. I spend 6 months and another $1000 getting it to run and it's still a worn out Bridgeport.:drowning:

In my right hand I have the ability to make an unbiased assessment of my needs and options.:idea:

Phil:)

Sectrix, I have the Super X3, the CNc Fusion standard kit and Gecko g203Vs on 4 Axis. I built the kit with help from the board, but I also wasted alot of time and money trying to perform shortcuts.

My advice is to read this thread here and let it sink in.
http://www.cnczone.com/forums/showthread.php?t=53269


Had I known then what I know now. I would have just bought the Tormach and then started making money. Instead, I have a great mill that has turned my hair grey.

sectrix,

I have a 4 axis X1 cnc servo drive mill for sale that would give you a running,
ready to make parts machine for a lot less than $6000 and you won't be
spending your time on converting. It has a large 6"x18" table. I have machined plastics, mild steels, and even stainless steel with it.
I am asking $1100. Computer is not included. Send me a pm or email if you are interested. Here's pics.
Al
http://i166.photobucket.com/albums/u109/allanjs/bench%20top%20CNC%20mill/P1001557.jpg
http://i166.photobucket.com/albums/u109/allanjs/bench%20top%20CNC%20mill/P1001558.jpg
http://i166.photobucket.com/albums/u109/allanjs/bench%20top%20CNC%20mill/P1001559.jpg
http://i166.photobucket.com/albums/u109/allanjs/bench%20top%20CNC%20mill/P1001560.jpg
http://i166.photobucket.com/albums/u109/allanjs/bench%20top%20CNC%20mill/P1001561.jpg
http://i166.photobucket.com/albums/u109/allanjs/bench%20top%20CNC%20mill/P1001562.jpg
http://i166.photobucket.com/albums/u109/allanjs/bench%20top%20CNC%20mill/P1001567.jpg
http://i166.photobucket.com/albums/u109/allanjs/bench%20top%20CNC%20mill/P1001568.jpg
http://i166.photobucket.com/albums/u109/allanjs/bench%20top%20CNC%20mill/P1001569.jpg

I recognize the cross slide table. I have one. The lead screws didn't impress me at all. Did youn change yours out? If not, how much back lash comenation did you need to use? About on par with a worn out Bridgeport.

I went the cheap ropute and found a worn BP. I didn't know then what I know now. I'd not do that again. I ended up spending $5k for s supermax with tooling. Add $500 for the wiring and rotary phase converter (or $400 for a VFD and wiring) and you're set. You can be into good used iron fior $3,500 and sometimes less if you luck into a deal from a tech college.

I'd rather have a medium priced used real machine, than a high priced benchtop. The tormach does have many fine qualities, but you can have more for less.

MrWild,

No, I did not change out the lead screws. They do have aprox. .005
backlash. The table was already on the machine. I purchased the complete machine new as pictured about 4 yrs ago.
I only posted my machine as an option for Sectrix as he is looking to buy a bench top mill and is limited to 110V power. I certainly would not compare this machine to a Bridgeport or any "standard sized" floor model knee mill.
Al

What's not real about a Tormach or a Taig for that matter?

"Real machine" is of course a relative term, relative to what you need to achieve. Some would consider a CNC'd Bridgeport nothing more than a toy. Bridgeport phobia can often result in considerable, unnecessary expense. A CNC'd Bridgeport is kinda like Granddad on Viagra, it works after a fashion but was never really meant to be.

Phil:)

I'd rather have a medium priced used real machine, than a high priced benchtop. The Tormach does have many fine qualities, but you can have more for less.

Do you own a lathe? If not, then set $1000 aside for a lathe and some tooling. If you're generally into "building stuff" you will quickly find it indispensable.

I don't think you could make too big a mistake going with a Taig. If you end up doing smaller stuff it is an excellent machine, and if you outgrow it, well, check the completed listings on eBay to see what they get used. They can be shipped UPS so you will get a good price for it. Most of your tooling can go right to a larger mill and of course all of your skills will transfer fine.

The Smithy version of the KX1 looks interesting too and is well within your price range but it is still a Chinese machine. Similar working envelope to the Taig but a bit more mass. I have an X1 so I have no bias against cheap Chinese machines but they are what they are.

Doing a DIY conversion can be a useful education in itself but if I had $6k now I'd definitely want a turnkey system.