Hi,

Okay a few different subjects for my questions as seen in the subject.

I'll summarize each question in bold.

Firstly I'm looking at getting a mill and lathe. The two models that I was looking at getting were:
http://www.arceurotrade.co.uk/Catalogue/Machines-Accessories/Lathes/Model-C3-Mini-Lathe The C3 lathe.
http://www.axminster.co.uk/product-Axminster-SIEG-Axminster-SIEG-X2-Mini-Mill-568039.htm The X2 mill.

They are about the right size for me and I've selected them based off previous advice and people's reviews. However I'm more wondering what make / version to get.

For the C3 lathe that I've listed (I was looking at getting the metric one without DROs), the ways are not hardened - Will this be a problem ? ACR have told me in an email that they have not had any problem with non-hardened ways but I thought I'd ask here for advice.

So in summary, first question is which version of the mill and lathe should I get ? (I'm in the UK, hence I want metric please.)

Second thing is safety glasses.

I hate this type: http://www.bellbrush.com/images/gog001.jpg so if I can get away from them, I'd love to.

I'm looking for glasses for milling, turning and brazing. (Just a mapp flame, so no super-bright flame here.) Also I don't require glasses, which should make life easier. So what kind of safety glasses would you suggest ?

Thirdly, at some point in the future I would like to have both lathe and mill setup for CNC.
What stepper motor ratings would be suggested for the mill and lathe listed ? I was also going to add a motor to the tailstock to do automated drilling.
Also related - What kind of sensor is needed on the spindle of the lathe to enable threading and how is this setup with Mach ? Is there a guide for this ?
So What stepper motor ratings are suggested for both the mill and lathe ?

Finally a specific part that I want to be able to turn and then mill.

Attached is a very bad drawing of the part with some sizes. The part will be made out of copper. There is a series of turned steps and a couple of holes, one of which is off-center.
I would do the off-center hole on the mill, while doing the steps on the lathe.

However, I don't know how I'd clamp the part.

For added complications, the through hole of the C3 lathe is only 20mm, which is half the size of the part so the bar stock would need to be cut down before it was put into the lathe. I understand that the part would need to be turned around at the end to finish the last face of it, but after the main steps have been turned how would the part be clamped ? Would it be alright being clamped on the largest diameter 1/8" step ?

Then how would it be clamped in the mill to drill the off-center hole ? If you were to use a vice, you would be clamping on two slithers of 1/8" high metal.

So how would you safely machine this part, including clamping methods ?

Thank you very much for any help,
-Andrew.

You might also want to consider the Real Bull ( RB ) minilathes as well as the Seig versions. The RB machines are available from Amadeal ( cheapest ), Chester, and Warco. The RB machines have more powerful motors, much more reliable motor speed controllers, oil channels and push button oilers, heat treated ways ( not fully hardened ), and have a generally more robust feel to them. All of the Real Bull vendors carry complete sets of spares for their machines but Arc only carry selected spares for their Sieg machines. The downside to the RB machines is that its not so easy to mount alternative chucks. I have bought machines from both Arc and Amadeal and can thouroughly recommend both vendors.

Forgot you were looking for an X2 size milling machine as well. The Weiss or Optimum WMD16LV is an alternative sold by Amadeal ( cheapest ), Chester, and Warco. They badge engineer the mills with their own model numbers but all have 16LV in there somewhere. The Weiss/Optimum is a much better machine ( bigger table, scraped ways, proper z-axis lead screw, etc ) than the X2 and only a little more expensive. Spares availability is good too. The downside is that the number of add on kits is much smaller for the Weiss/Optimum machines ( no belt drive kits for example ).

Thanks for your replies.

I've just looked on Amadeal's site and found the lathe (http://www.amadeal.co.uk/cj18.htm) but can't see any mention about the oil system. Am I looking at the right model ? I will have a look into these more but from the specs they seem better than the C3 for about the same price.

Only things about that lathe are:
1) Can the Cam-lock tailstock from the C3 be used on the CJ18 ?
2) How is the mount for the chuck different ? Can chucks from the C2/C3 be made to fit it ?
3) Amadeal lists the size as 200/300/350mm, is this lathe a 7x14 (350mm) or is there an option when buying ? (And if it's an option, do you know if they are the same price ?)
4) Is is supplied as metric ?

Regarding the mill: I cannot find that mill on Amadeal, do you meant he XJ12 ? (http://www.amadeal.co.uk/xj12.htm)

I'll have a look into the mill also, although the mill will come later on - Some time in august when I get some more money.


Oh yes, a question I forgot to ask.
I'm going to build a workbench at a nice height for both the mill and the lathe - Only I'm not a machinist so I don't know what "a nice height" is.

Can anyone suggest what height is optimal for a lathe (Height of the centerline) and for a mill (Height of the table ?) from the floor ?

Cheers.

I bought a C3 from arceurotrade. Its a great machine, if you only want to use it manually i would add a glass scale DRO. You may also consider adding a bigger chuck while you are at it, 125mm i.e.

I converted it to CNC, have a look at http://www.cnczone.com/forums/showthread.php?t=27300

I've sent you a PM telling you how to find the lathe and milling machine I mentioned, you can just phone up Amadeal and order direct. They tend to mention only the obvious specs of their machines, all of the rest you have to get from the manufacturers website/forums/bitter experience. As regards benches I've got the metal ones with thick wooden tops that Axminster sell - ideal for the minilathe and minimill. Not exactly cheap but well worth the money. If you want to make your own you can get the dimensions from the Axminster website.

Guldberg: Thanks, I'll have a look through your thread now. Shame there aren't any pictures in the first post though.

chalky: Thanks for your help, I'm looking at them now.
I'd like to build my own bench becuase then I can build it into the wall any use more of the space I have. I'm a student who's living at home so I have to work with the space I've been given. (A 86" x 86" box room, unfortunatly we don't have a garage so I'll have to sort out ventalation and the like.) I'll look up them sizes though cheers.

I think it was these

http://www.student.dtu.dk/~s021875/Img1.JPG

http://www.student.dtu.dk/~s021875/Img2.JPG

Ah I see - I wanted to see the paper bellows, thanks for posting them. :)

So can anybody suggest what size of stepper motors would be required for these sizes of machines ?

Also any idea for the safety glasses ?

Finally, how would the part I mentioned in the first post be machined / clamped ?

Cheers.

I used 200oz/in, that was plenty of power, the spindle motor would stall before the steppers.

How precise would the part need to be? I would turn the "rib" end first and drill the hole. Then turn it over and use some small pieces of brass or similar to protect it from the jaws. Turn the flange in the first setup, this way you only have to face it in the second setup and it wont matter if it runs true

Just make sure they go around the side of your eyes too, for when you tilt your head, just try not to do this if you can help it. Specially around metal chips and the tables without cleaning it first, just in case you really have to. There are others that go around the side of your head and look more like regular sun glasses, I just didn't thing they had enough to cover my eyes though. I think the first one will be the one before you go to the goggles if you really want to cover all of your eyes, but just try to stay calm at all times when working on a lathe or any machinery and take the proper precautions and you should be fine. Since your work space is very small, I would also suggest a wet/dry small shop vac to keep the area clean from chips. I hate blowing chips all over the place and this helps me keep things clean and neat. I probably turn it more often that I should, but hey, that's how I like it. Also, the first link for this glasses works great if you have to get under your car. I had the smaller type, and well, got dirt in my eyes, so I went to these and they are somewhat comfortable to keep on too.
http://grizzly.com/products/VOLCAN-Safety-Glasses-Black-Clear/T20449

Here's the other page with all the different type of safety glasses. By the way, kudos to you, asking for the safety equipment before doing anything is the smartest thing any of us can do. So we know you got the common sense. :)
http://grizzly.com/products/searchresults.aspx?q=glasses

If glasses bother you, there are also full face masks that you wear over your face and you put them on like a hat.
http://grizzly.com/products/searchresults.aspx?q=face%20shield

You can find safety glasses at most hardware stores or even some auto parts stores, depending on where you live and what's available. This stuff is available pretty much anywhere. I can't think of any one that doesn't want to safeguard their eyes or any other body part for that matter.

Cheers for your help guys.

Regarding the stepper motor: Would you suggest the same motor for all axis' ?

Regarding the part: Okay that makes sense, only how would you clamp the part in a mill to drill the off-center hole ? (It would only be a small diameter hole, a few mm.)

Jaime128: Thanks for your help, I'll be sure to get a vac of some kind. Just wondering, would a Dyson work without any problems ? If so I might pick up a "cheap" Dyson as they pick up stuff pretty well. I *think* they can handle liquids, would have to check though unless anybody knows ?

I'm tempted to get a full face shield as that would stop me from "eating" swarf aswell. I can't imagen it's very tasty. Might get a shield and glasses, then I can try them both out.

On the subject of safety, are gloves really required for milling and turning ? Would they do more harm than good ? (More to get caught in something spinning ?)

Edit: Just had a look for some more local Face Shields:
http://www.machinemart.co.uk/shop/product/details/face-visor-305mm/path/head-face-hand-eye-ear-protection
http://www.machinemart.co.uk/shop/product/details/polycarbonate-face-screen/path/head-face-hand-eye-ear-protection
http://www.machinemart.co.uk/shop/product/details/face-visor-394mm/path/head-face-hand-eye-ear-protection
http://www.machinemart.co.uk/shop/product/details/m2000-industrial-face-shield/path/head-face-hand-eye-ear-protection

They all say that they conform to EN166 standards, except the second one down. Now I don't know the standards, but I'd guess that the second one would specify it if it meet them.

Other than that, I see that there's two basic types - One with just a sheet of plastic and one with a rim around the plastic.

I don't know what is "required" for machining metal so can somebody suggest which one I should go for ?

I would think that the last one would be light yet strong enough for my use, what do you think ?

Also found the glasses that you mentioned: (Well near enough, but with 100% markup.)
http://www.machinemart.co.uk/shop/product/details/tuscany-jupiter-safety-specs/path/head-face-hand-eye-ear-protection
As well as something for brazing with:
http://www.machinemart.co.uk/shop/product/details/flexi-specs-2-welding-brazing/path/head-face-hand-eye-ear-protection

So I think I'll get them aswell as a shield.

Cheers again.

I think you'll be fine with the second face shield. This light one should be fine. Remember you will be moving and the full helmet will just be way too much if you're just working at home on the small lathe. So yeah, get the lighter less expensive one and whatever glasses you like. Try not to get the dark ones if you're going to be working indoors on the lathe or mill though. For brazing like they say or welding of sorts, yes you would need darker specially made for that application. You want to see what you're doing and it will be safer for you. So try both, and once you practice you may not need the full face, but I like that idea too. At least not for the small machines like the mini mill or mini lathe. In a real big machine shop you may need them.

Minute metal chips are nasty, so make sure you clean up right after you finish working every time, and wash your hands. If you touched this stuff, which is okay, and you have to eat, make sure it's food that you don't have to touch or eat with utensils. Better yet, try to eat before you start any work. The energy actually helps. And try not to eat or drink while you work. I know this is hard, but keeping things separate like this keeps you safer anyway. You should be fine after washing your hands. I know I'm anal about the clean parts, but safety for your health is something you can't take lightly. You can handle this stuff fine, but I just take it a bit farther. If you ever take shop classes in any school, you will get drilled about safety all the time before you make anything. It's a pain and sometimes boring, but now I know why they do that, I'm glad I learned that. I just thought I save you the trouble so you can have the good habits by the time you ever do take classes or do this yourself. You will keep all your body parts and be able to make whatever you want. As for the vac, any small vac should do. I use a cheapo shop vac I got from target I think. The vacs come in wet/dry models, so yeah, get the one with both if you can so you can pick up pretty much anything with it.I think most are like that anyway. Just remember if it has a filter to carefully check that too since you get chips stuck there. Just don't shake that or you'll make a mess.

I read another post about safety and why you shouldn't use gloves...they can get caught on the spindle or whatever and actually cause more harm then good. What I do is turn the machine off, then use the vac to clean up before I touch anything just to minimize the swarf or chips on my hands. I keep paper towels handy to clean things before I handle them. Gloves are great if you will be handling the stock a lot and maybe for cutting your stuff manually on a vise for example.

Oh yeah, always keep your mouth closed when eating in general. If you're working on a machine focus on your work. Never try to keep a conversation while eating...you can choke...so keep it safe and if anyone is distracting you while you work, turn the machine off and talk or let them know you can't talk. Just some simple rules to live by...

I might go down and have a look at the shields instead of buying on line, then I can see how heavy they are.

I'll contact Dyson and see if they would be suitable. The reason that I like Dysons is because there's no bag or anything to get messed up. Also I'm allergic to dust and Dysons are the only hoovers that I've been able to use without being affected.

Unfortunatly when I was in school I did Electronics instead of "shop". (I think it was called Design & Technology for us, can't remember.) Having said that, our shop was just wookwork anyway, although it seemed to just be designing stuff. I'm currently in University and although I'd love to do more than one course, I cannot. (And even if I could, I wouldn't pay an extra £9,000 for the tuition fees.) I do however know someone who works a lot with Stainless Steel. He owns the company and has a large lathe, mill and tig welding gear. He always said that he would teach me how to weld but we never got around to it. Will have to see if he's willing to teach me some turning stuff. :)

I'll skip on the gloves then, good thing I double checked - I thought they would be more harm than good but wasn't sure.

Thanks for your time, it's been a great help.

I wanted to take auto shop in high school, but the counselor never let me. When I was in college it took me longer to graduate because I was just taking a bunch of classes that I was interested in, some electronics, cad, wood shop, auto, drafting. You name it, I think I may have been in the class just because I also didn't want to take the courses that we "have" to take. In short, everything you take may come in handy some day, whether it is to fix a broken piece of electronics or just for fun. Even if you never use it, I have rather taken a class about something and know a bit about it, then not know anything at all.

The most important thing to keep in mind is to do something because you enjoy it, not because you have to. We all have things to do. And yes, I forgot to tell you to go to the store and try the shields on, your friend probably has some too so just give him a visit. People are always busy, but as long as you don't bug them or really annoy anyone, they're pretty good about helping, showing or teaching you something. At least this is what I have experienced from the more mature machinists, welders, mechanics, etc. I'm more new school, I learned everything with cad and cnc at my university and well I'm trying to do the stuff manually because you should always know the basics. Plus I can use all the exercise I can get. I'm not fat, but I just don't work out at all, so this isn't healthy either. I just broke up on a sweat cutting these aluminum pieces for the vise clamps I want to make. So it's not all fun and games when you don't have all the tools even if you do have all the knowledge in the world too, which I know I don't.

I think Dysons are great too. Just make sure you have the extensions in order to get into the tight corners of your machines or table. This is really the best way to clean up these messes. You will clean most of your chips just as fast as you make them so I do recommend this. Most people like to blow the chips with air, but I'm with you there, I hate the dust too, as I'm sure many of us do.

Sent off an email to Dyson, hope to get a reply soon to see if one will be suitable or not.

Could get a hand-held Dyson if they are suitable, but at £99 is it worth it ?

I bought one of these little shop vacs some years back...take a look they might also work for you if you don't want to pay too much. You can find them at most local general stores too. I say get what works for you. I was looking at the vac box and I have the receipt in here. I actually bought mine in 2003 and used it to clean my room in my car before. Not too much use, but now I use it a bit more with the new mill. So it's lasted a very long time. So get a good one if you go for one of these. It will last you a long time as long as you take care of it. I just don't have the room like you, so I had to get a small one I could put under my desk and well, it's been good. Good luck and have fun.
http://www.shopvac.com/

Mine looks like this one but now they got newer more powerful models from looking at the site above.
Amazon.com: Shop-Vac 301-01-00 5-Gallon 1.5 HP Wet/Dry Vacuum: Home Improvement


The only bad thing I forgot to mention about the shop vacs is that they blow hot air right from the back. So basically one ends takes the dirt in, but the motor blows air right back out. It's not like an upright vac or I guess the dyson. You can put a bag in there if your picking up finer particles like saw dust, but that defeats the purpose of having a bagless vac. Also, the bad side is that if you are close enough to it and turn it on while it's sort of facing you, you may end up getting dirt in your eyes. It happened to me while cleaning my car, but now I have to be very careful if I'm picking up chips so I may end up getting the bags just because of that. Don't want to pick up chips and blow them out the back. The filter is in the middle so that helps prevent that, but not 100%. It seems all their shop vacs do this. I'm sure you can set something up or others may have already to prevent this.

Cheers I'll have a look into them and others like them.

Well I got a reply from Dyson, they said that they do not recommend using their machines for damp materials let alone wet. I'll have a look at what wet / dry vacuumes I can get locally when I get a chance.

Just another quick question regarding the RealBull lathe from Amadeal.

The downside to the RB machines is that its not so easy to mount alternative chucks.
How is the chuck attachment different ? If I wanted to get a collet chuck such as the one from Arc Euro Trade ER collet chuck for the C3 (Sorry but there's no link, it's in the catalog but I can't find it on the site. It's just a plate with three holes to bolt onto the spindle and an ER collet holder.), what are my options ?

Cheers.