Hello all, ive been a lurker and dreamer for all this time and finally got enough spare room to have some fun. (I kicked out my roommate.)

I have looked at dozens of home-made mills and a whackload of chinese and domestic industrials and decided to buy two mills instead of one.

I am an electrician who in 12-18months will be going to school for electronics engineering and a hobby wood, clock, pcb builder. I originally was looking for a 12x20in xyz machine but decided their way out of my price range at the moment.

I went to Harbor Freight today and bought the x1 mini mill for technically free as I sold a car I fixed for $400 profit, next friday im ordering the cnczone pro 305oz/in stepper kit and my mill will hopefully be shipped (5-10days)

I know its not the most accurate or stable of all the machines but for $300 and as a started machine its great, once im accustomed to mills and cnc ill be able to buy a $1-2k machine, build the mounts and not be horrified of ruining things.

OK onto my questions, but first what I plan to do with my mill:
I will be milling double sided pcb's 1/16-1/32 thick so ill need 0.0015in accuracy on the z axis and my traces are all 8-10mill with 1-5mill spacing so ill need 0.001-0.005 on the xy. I think this is easily attainable as everyone seems to be aiming for 0.0001 accuracy.
I make boxes with dovetail joints out of Ash/Teak/Elder for my nieces and clock faces.
I will be making gears, nothing tiny 0.5in 25tooth is the smallest i go and most are just for looks, this guy does what I want to do (http://video.google.com/videosearch?q=cnc+clock+gears&hl=en&sitesearch=)
My gears will be out of 22-16guage 6061al/brass or plexi

The prime reason im buying the mill is for pcb's as im starting to come out with 2-3 boards a week and by the time I get them back from the board houses Ive lost interest or changed my designs. With a mill I can build and proto the same day at least.

Questions:
1) bits.. oh god.. Carbide is best but thats all I know, can you recommend some kinds, names links or the gear cutting, pcbs, and plexi? (or a link to learn about bits)
2) I see all these mini vice on the mills but saw none at HF, where do you get them and how much?
3) Is the rebar & concrete in the column and base effective?
4) 305oz/in steppers might have problems with the z axis weight, im going to rig up a strut or weight system regardless so the motor lasts longer.
5) Im planning on putting high resolution encoder wheels on every axis, does MachCNC have necessities to understand these inputs, if so anyone done it and have a tutorial/explination?
6) Where does one buy the guages that show backlash, ive seen them used to measure runoff on lathes and the level of the table axis or is their a better way to figure out my machines accuracy?

Im planning on documenting every single step of this project for my friends and everyone else's benefit but this will take a while as im not the richest man on earth... bear with me please! Thanks!

I have a Harbor Freight X1 Mini Mill that I CNC'd and use daily ( in business ) for milling both 6061 Alum and C360 Brass.

I've run it about 5 hours a day for the last 12 months. I spent about 1500.00 total on it (mill, cnc, computer, vises, end mills, drills, parallels, misc).

I love the little machine and it more than earns it keep, however, it does have it's issues.


>I will be milling double sided pcb's 1/16-1/32 thick so ill need 0.0015in accuracy on the z axis and my traces are all 8-10mill with 1-5mill spacing so ill need 0.001-0.005 on the xy. I think this is easily attainable as everyone seems to be aiming for 0.0001 accuracy.

I have .02 in of backlash in all three axis so I don't even try for .0015in accuracy. It is unlikely that you will get .0015 without ball screws and thrust bearings (Balls screws would be a serious overkill on an X1).

Even then, on my mill, the table ways are uneven (slightly hooked) and needed attention to get the table and head to move without binding when you tighten the gibs down.


> 1) bits.. oh god.. Carbide is best but thats all I know, can you recommend some kinds, names links or the gear cutting, pcbs, and plexi? (or a link to learn about bits).

I don't do pcb but if you plan to do any alum or brass:

I use SHARP good quality, Single End, Center Cutting HSS (High Speed Steel) End Mills. Less expensive and with the light cuts you'll be doing, you won't need carbide.

I purchased a 3/8 End Mill Holder and purchase all of my end mills with 3/8 shanks. The largest End Mill I use is 1/2, but take very light cuts.

Don't use the drill chuck for end mills. Get an end mill holder:
http://www.littlemachineshop.com/products/product_view.php?ProductID=1705&category=

My mill cuts alum and brass best with 1/4 End Mills taking .2mm cuts. Smaller End Mills seem to clog up and the column has to much flex to do much with the 1/2 End Mills.

The column is difficult to tram (using shims) and I have never been able to get it 100% square to the table so I don't do fly cutting. For the parts I make, a column that is out by .02 - .03 is not an issue.


I get most of my tools at:

Ecno, http://www.use-enco.com
J&L Industrial Supply http://www.jlindustrial.com/cgi/jisrhm
MSC Direct http://www.mscdirect.com/

KBC Tools http://www.kbctools.com

LittleMachineShop http://www.littlemachineshop.com

There are a bunch of others.

A note: Enco, J&L and MSC Direct are owned by the same parent company MSC but have different catalogs. Enco usually has the best prices. MSC is almost always the most expenseive but has a much wider selection.


Request Catalogs from as many tool places as you can. You can spend hours drooling over the tools. :-)



Someone else will need to help you with the PCB stuff.



>2) I see all these mini vice on the mills but saw none at HF, where do you get them and how much?

With the PCB stuff, it may be best to use a jig to support the board while milling instead of just clamping it in a vise.


Enco, KBC Tools and Littlemachineshop have the vises you are talking about.

I paid 50.00 for the first one, 180.00 for a better second one. Get a good vise the first time and get one that pulls the rear jaw down. Also, be sure you don't get a vise that is too large. These mills have a very small working range, about 5x6 inches.

My first vise was similar to this: http://www.littlemachineshop.com/products/product_view.php?ProductID=1590&category=



>3) Is the rebar & concrete in the column and base effective?

Never tried it. Could not hurt. There is a LOT of flex in the column on these mills. I'm usually limited to rough cuts .3mm and finish cuts at .05mm in alum and brass.

For milling on PCB boards, I can't see where you would need to do heavy enough cuts to flex the column since the bits you'll be using will be very small. I don't do PCB stuff so I can't say on that.



>4) 305oz/in steppers might have problems with the z axis weight, im going to rig up a strut or weight system regardless so the motor lasts longer.

I used a 4 axis HobbyCnc Pro board with 305 steppers and the Z column does fine with no weight or strut but I spent some time lapping the column ways to make them smoother. Getting the gibs adjusted JUST RIGHT is key. To tight and you get binding, too loose and you get slop. Takes practice.


>5) Im planning on putting high resolution encoder wheels on every axis, does MachCNC have necessities to understand these inputs, if so anyone done it and have a tutorial/explination?

Don't know. I use mach3 but have never had an issue that needed encoders on my mill.


>6) Where does one buy the guages that show backlash, ive seen them used to measure runoff on lathes and the level of the table axis or is their a better way to figure out my machines accuracy?

Enco, KBC Tools, MSC, Littlemachine shop, others.

>Im planning on documenting every single step of this project for my friends and everyone else's benefit but this will take a while as im not the richest man on earth... bear with me please! Thanks![/quote]

Have fun, enjoy.

Here are some PCB milling videosn on a Proxon mill that is even smaller than the X1:

http://video.aol.com/video-detail/proxxon-mf70-cnc-pcb-fast-prototyping/2067399153

CR.

I have an X1 in the progress of a CNC conversion.

Z axis is definitely a weak point. I'm considering this (http://www.xylotex.com/Counterlever.htm) to "extend" the Z dovetail contact area for better rigidity and less wobble. I don't have a counterweight yet, as with the stock screws it handles okay.

PCB milling and small bit milling needs *high* speeds that the X1 can't even dream of stock. A belt conversion seems to be popular, or adding a second spindle (Proxxon mini dremel-like tool). These is a belt drive kit offered, though the website has disappeared while he transfers it to new hosting. Join the Yahoo group (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/hf47158toCNC_Moderated/) for more good resources.

D.

You might be better off to return the X1 and buy an X2. It has both a 20K spindle and a belt drive kit available:

http://littlemachineshop.com/products/product_view.php?ProductID=2892&category=

CR.

This belt conversion for the x2 mini mill brings top speed up to 4300 rpm:

http://littlemachineshop.com/products/product_view.php?ProductID=2560&category=

CR.

OR, maybe THIS mill for $310 would be better suited to the PCB machining:

http://www.carpediemstore.com/listCategoriesAndProducts.asp?idCategory=312

CR.

Yeah, that's the same grinder I've seen attached to various mills. Wouldn't be hard to build a mount for the X1 I think.

The "Tj-cnc" conversion gave up to 8000 rpm I think...probably still on the low side for PCB cutting I think, but good enough for small bits in aluminum. The replacement bearings were rated for 16k, so it's possible that swapping/replacing the pulleys might give even more speed. IIRC, the stock bearings get warm/hot at 4k, but haven't tried speeding things up yet.

Another high-speed spindle option I saw was the flex shaft from a dremel-like tool mounted in a modified drawbar down the center of the spindle, with the dremel head mounted in a collet. Dremel tool ran the flex shaft while the X1 spindle stayed put. I imagine that the runout of the flex tool head unit could be an issue if it's a sloppy unit.

D.

Thanks for all the input!

I bought the x1 because I live in vancouver and drive a toyota tercel, HF is 90min away and most companies wont ship a mill to canada because of insane freight charges.

I wish I would have gone to the bellingham grizzley showroom To see this (http://www.grizzley.com/products/Combo-Lathe-w-Milling-Attachment/G0516) but I only have $3-400/month spare cash and when im really into cnc ill go for something along the lines of this (http://www.grizzley.com/products/9-x-32-Gear-Head-Mill-Drill-with-Stand/G0484) or this guy (http://www.grizzley.com/products/Gear-Head-Mill-Drill/G1126). When ive saved up or made some money with my x1 to rent a truck and garage to store the machine in.

Ill be using the mill for 80% pcb, 15% brash/al 16-22guage, 5% wood/lexan blocks I have a dremel xpr400 and am thinking of either replacing the x1head with it of doing one of those off the the side versions. If i replace the stock head Im sure it will mill wood/lexan blocks but think a dremel can handle sheets of al/brass?

Sounds like the z-axis is flakey on these, Ill mount some nuts in the column when i rebar and concrete it so I can weld up a sturdy a-frame, should get rid of all the column wobble. The extended dovetail seems like a good idea, I haven't seen the shape of them yet but I imagine you could mill your own 4in extension. Im also mounting the vertical shaft a few inch off the base to get full z travel out of the head so adding the extra dovetail would not be noticeable.

Hows the x/y axis on these things? any pointers on getting them better without the 'replace all the parts' ideas, remember I have a pathetic budget currently.

EDIT: I had to order the x1 to the Everett HF store (5-10days), do they allow cancellations with refund, or in store credit, or not at all? Just in case this thread convinced me to buy better.

I'm in a similar boat. In Canada, and prices on X2s are wayyyyy higher here. Think the lowest I saw for an X2 before I bought my X1 was $850. Since then, Busy Bee's has theirs on sale for $678, which would be tempting if I didn't already have the X1 (though I did get the X1 for pretty cheap).

Anyways...
I don't think a Dremel would be rigid enough for an real amount of Alum/Brass. I think there might too much play in the bearings and you'd get chatter, but I might be wrong if the Dremel is higher quality than I think.

The stock X1's Y axis is supposed to be pretty bad, either too loose for accuracy, or too much wooble. The contact area is too small once the table moves out pass the halfway mark. LittleMachineShop sells an extended Y-axis upgrade kit (from the Super X1), which is supposed to be a "must-have", but the cost of shipping it up to Canada makes it a bit expensive. The extended X-table is also popular, and I think gives even more table than an X2, but again, expensive to ship. Adding those mods with shipping brings you into X2 price range.

One option for improving backlash accuracy is to replace the stock iron nuts with delrin nuts, and the gibs with brass. Some good conversion ideas here: http://homepage.ntlworld.com/andy.birkett/mill/index.htm
Note that this is the Super X1 with the improved Y-axis and bigger table, so he didn't have those problems to deal with.
I found that even just wet sanding the gibs with very fine sandpaper helped in a pinch, and lapping the ways is also supposed to help.

If I were you and could get to a Busy Bee store (there's one in Vancouver), I'd *really* consider getting their X2 instead. The only real gotcha is that the Z-axis is going to be harder to CNC, as it's a rack-and-pinion, and either needs an ACME screw or ballscrew added. Plus you'd probably have to postpone buying the tooling until your budget recovers, but you'd be able to do much more.
http://busybeetools.ca/cgi-bin/picture10?&NETID=2254240512081888950&NTITEM=CT133

edit: I do really like my X1, and the smaller size, lighter weight, and affordable shipping are nice. But an X2 at a reasonable price might be a better deal if you can deal with the Z-axis.

D.

Busy Bees version of the mini-mill is $100 more than harbor freight.. and $600 is still twice as much as micro-mill. the proxxon is a good little guy but 2in y travel is almost useless, my eagle license is 100x80mm so thats my minimum travel required.

Im starting to get worried, I was only planning on spending $1000 on this project -bits, tools, material. After the cnc kit, mill, a-frame, concrete, counterweight I have $250 to improve accuracy. if I need to spend over $400 to get it within x2 accuracy I might as well just buy that. The grizzly G8689 is the x2 and $523 but that ballskrew kit is $250 so I wont have a full cnc untill Sept by the earliest.

The upside of the x1 is I could have it running by end of the month, no more sending my pcb's off to china to get manufactured for $40/pop. Do you think resale would be decent enough, would you guys pay $500 for the x2 with 305oz/in hobbycnc when I want to upgrade like next year?

I don't think you would have a problem selling it.
Have you tried looking for a used one yourself?
Probably hard to come by.
It's like when you buy that new big screen TV, you keep the old one
and just put it in the rumpus room.:)
There are probably plenty of mills out there people just don't want to give up.
Besides, you can use the old one to help upgrade the new one later on.

Besides, you can use the old one to help upgrade the new one later on.

And there's the catch-22 of going the DYI conversion route. You need machine tools to build machine tools. At least for people at my skill level with hand tools. My X2's Z axis is at a "real" machineshop (for a modification) at this moment for that very reason. Hard to use the mill with one of it's major components removed ;)

Regarding ballscrews. Ballscrews aren't the be all and end all. You might save some money and headaches going acme with a better nut design. Expect the space beneath the X1 table is kind of limited? The link provide earlier looks sensible. http://homepage.ntlworld.com/andy.birkett/mill/index.htm
Wonder how he would have approached this without having the other tools handy?

Busy Bees version of the mini-mill is $100 more than harbor freight.. and $600 is still twice as much as micro-mill.

Ahh, I forgot you have access to a HF. I don't, and since HF won't even try to ship an X2 to Canada (let alone how much it would cost), the BB price is pretty attractive. Not sure how much gas it would cost you to get down to HF, but $100 might actually be close on that regard these days :P. I think the BB one also has metric screws, which may or may not be a good thing.

IMHO, the X1 and X2 both have an odd Z-axis, so that's a bit of a balance. The weak Y-axis on the X1 could be an issue, but if your PCB boards are only going to be ~80mm wide, you could avoid that by setting the board to maximize the axis contact footprint.

I think the overall accuracy of the X2 would only be better because of the better Y-axis and Z-axis contact footprints (assuming a decent screw on the Z). I think you could probably get an X1 to around the same accuracy if you avoid using part of the Y-axis and tweak the Z-axis (somebody correct me if I'm wrong), but the rigidity and power when taking bigger cuts in metal is what's lacking. Since you're primarily doing PCBs, that may not be much of an issue for you. Biggest problem I can see is getting repeatability out of the Z-axis to get the PCB depth right.

D.

And there's the catch-22 of going the DYI conversion route. You need machine tools to build machine tools. At least for people at my skill level with hand tools. My X2's Z axis is at a "real" machineshop (for a modification) at this moment for that very reason. Hard to use the mill with one of it's major components removed ;)



Yeah it would be nice to have a parts getter while you hotrod your Camaro.
Most of us can't afford a Vette but we can build something almost as cool.
A little late in the game but I might have to pick up an X1 to have something
around to make chips while the other mill is undergoing a new project.
Got my gift from the US Treasury today.
Hoss

Really cheap X2 CNC conversion:

http://www.cnczone.com/forums/showthread.php?t=50277

http://www.cnczone.com/forums/showthread.php?t=51449

CR.

Ok, I made some calls, wined complained, made some more calls and I get to do a friday roadtrip to Seattle and Bellingham. Not that big of a deal though as Seattles 2hr away and Bellinghams 20min away... ($15-20 round trip in gas)

In the end i returned my x1, easy as HF had not shipped it from warehouse yet and bought the grizzly mini-mill (http://www.grizzley.com/products/Mini-Milling-Machine/G8689) the same as the HF x2 but mt3 instead of r8 which is a pain as everythings twice the price. But I did get the mill for $480 brand new!

Im thinking of doing the 2axis conversion to mill brakets and all the things required for the z-axis conversion so I only need to buy the ballskrews and motor couplers in the end. (Isnt the lovejoy just a castle nut with hard rubber bushing essentially?) Im gonna ask in Chuck's x2 thread about how that belt z-axis went as I have access to plenty of timing pulleys.

Im thinking of doing a side mounted wolfgang 20k RPM spindle as the table travel is twice the width of my eagle license I can have both perminantly mounted I think.

Hows the column rigidity on the x2? I havent noticed people adding concrete and a-frames only counterweights.

Using 426oz/in steppers on a 20tpi (or is the x2 16tpi?) what ratio do you recommend on the axis, looks like chuck's is 1:1.

Now tooling, I hear theirs a set of 2/4 flute all with 3/8 shank so I would only need to buy one, that would be an awesome deal and save me some money. Otherwise recommend any bit sets/collets for mt3? an 8pc collet set and 20 endmills are like $250 T_T

Im also thinking about getting this (http://www.kelinginc.net/ThreeXCNCPackage.html) controller package instead of the 305oz/in hobbyCNC one, only $50 more but I think the MUCH higher voltage rating of the motors not to mention the extra 120oz/in will preform much better and good to transfer to a larger mill later on.

Don't be fooled by the thought that those motors would be more powerful. Those 425 oz. motors would be seriously underpowered with that power supply. It would take the 72 volt power supply to get their full power. John will mix and match in his packages. IMO it would be far better to get THIS package:

http://www.kelinginc.net/Three23XCNCPackage.html

but substitute THESE motors:

KL23H276-30-8B 282 oz. double shaft Bipolar Parallel

And free upgrade to THIS power supply:

KL-320-36 36V/8.8A
110V/220V $59.95

This would actually give you much more power and speed for even less cost.

Here's how to improve the X2 Z column rigidity:

http://www.cnczone.com/forums/showthread.php?t=57540

CR.

BTW: Congrats on the X2 purchase. I think you made the right decision.

Here's an X2 high speed spindle mod. Maybe you can relocate the switch box and mount the spindle on the OTHER side:

http://hossmachine.info/projects.html#engraver

CR.

Crevice: The steppers will be underpowered because of the power supply, I guess its true as I used a ATX power supply for a bench 5/12v supply and its only meant to draw current in certain ways. The KL- 4030 says its only rated for 20-40v but the motor can take way more, I can easily get/make a 40v/20A transformer with large filter cap, if I this way whats the optimum voltage so nothing releases the magic smoke? I would love the KL-8078 but at over twice the price per controller its a bit harsh. The kit I listed in last post costs $350 without the power supply so his packages are a good deal, I would order that pack build my own transformer or buy one through my company for cheep and use the 36v regulated as the feed to my dual chanel bench power supply. Two projects with one stone.

The 425oz/in steppers says 4.17v and the top says you can run them at 20-25% rated so Im thinking a 80-100v/20A supply if the controller can handle it.

Ill read the 2nd link before bed, ive never read so much in my life...

EDIT: The spindle mod, pretty much the same way I was thinking of doing it though a 7/8HP router at 36k rpm seems nuts, whats more important extreme speed or lots of HP?

EDIT2: My friend just called and gave me his old fishtank, Ill use the scrap lexan I got laying around all over and build a trey for the top, rig up a simple sink strainer & cheezecloth to filter filings and I got myself a cooling system!

You would need the $190 7220 PS at least, but the power has to go THROUGH each driver, (You can't just run it to the motors) and the 4030s won't take it. So either use the 282s with 36V or upgrade drivers AND PS which would cost you about $200 more. It would be far better to use the motors/PS I recommended and put the $200 toward ballscrews.

CR.

Yeah! The Proxxon, with it's electronic variable speed and collet/cutter kit, looks like a better deal:

http://littlemachineshop.com/products/product_view.php?ProductID=2891&category=

CR.

All right I wont be buying for another month but your combo is on my list. I made my own stepper controller out of a stepper IC and used 400v/6A mosfets to provide power to the motors so my design could handle some serious abuse but the controller ic was pretty shotty at best. One could make a breakout board that uses the 4030's motor outputs to control the same mosfets to allow much higher voltages, might make that a project down the road.

The 282oz/in actually have a more linear torque curve I just noticed (Terribly hard site to browse through) and twice the current rating.

The $200 would go towards the z-axis ballscrew setup, Ill be milling all the brakets my self, what skrew/nuts/bearings are recomended for the z as most of the kits I saw were >$200 for just the z, $3-450 for xyz

Isnt the lovejoy just a castle nut with hard rubber bushing essentially?
yes


Im gonna ask in Chuck's x2 thread about how that belt z-axis went as I have access to plenty of timing pulleys.
Frankly I'm amazed that z axis works as well as Chuck claims. The slop in the x2's microfeed dial is huge, Well, whatever works is a working solution. With mechanical things my theory is the most direct method is usually the best method. Sometimes we choose to go the less optimal route. For example lovejoys allow some degree of misalignment.


Hows the column rigidity on the x2? I havent noticed people adding concrete and a-frames only counterweights.
The stock rigidity is reasonable for a small mill. The tilting column design makes it less rigid than it could be. Mine has been braced. The ability to easily tilt the column is lost however.

on a 20tpi (or is the x2 16tpi?)
Pretty sure it will be 16.


Now tooling, I hear theirs a set of 2/4 flute all with 3/8 shank so I would only need to buy one, that would be an awesome deal and save me some money. Otherwise recommend any bit sets/collets for mt3? an 8pc collet set and 20 endmills are like $250 T_T
I buy most of my cutting tools locally. The rest come from littlemachineshop. They have good prices on all types of toolholders. A 3/8" endmill holder will cover most of your endmill holding needs. A collet setup is more versatile.

The hossmachine website is a great source of X2 information.

A few posts back I mentioned needing machine tools to modify machine tools. The conversion to ballsrews is a good example. A few companies offer kits. These add considerably to the costs. It might be possible to buy the screws cut to length and have the ends machined to order. Don't be surprised if they have a hefty charge for the machining. Then there's the matter of preload. The accuracy of a non-preloaded rolled ballscrew can be outside what you were hoping for.

A DIY can be fun but don't be shocked as the costs start to add up.

edit/ Ballscrew backlash, not ballscrew accuracy. The accuracy of non-preloaded will be decent. The backlash may not be. Hope this doesn't confuse.

Lovejoy couplings have a lot of backlash. Solid helical couplings are best. Keling has some interesting ones for $16 each:

http://kelinginc.net/CNCPackage.html

I haven't TRIED his, but they look to be good.

Hoss has good info on DIY mounts & ballscrews:

http://hossmachine.info/

CR.

OK im browsing around for tooling and have come up with this selection:

10pc 2 & 4 flute End Mills (http://www.grizzly.com/products/10-pc-2-4-Flute-End-Mill-Set-HSS-TiN/G9763)
Clamping Set (http://www.grizzly.com/products/52-pc-Clamping-Kit-1-2-Bolt-Size/G1076)
Center Finder (http://www.grizzly.com/products/Carbide-Tipped-Lathe-Center-MT3/H7968)
1-2-3 Blocks (http://www.grizzly.com/products/1-2-3-Blocks/G5641)
Runout Dial (Hopefully I can find one 0.0001 not 0.001) (http://www.grizzly.com/products/Magnetic-Base-Dial-Indicator-Combo-President-s-Special/G9849)

I found R8-MT3 selves but Im guessing the spindle is smaller on the MT3 and thats why theirs no MT3-R8 adapters right? Im looking at the quick change mt3 collet set (http://www.grizzley.com/products/MT3-Quick-Change-Collet-8-pc-Set/T10069) but its a bit much right now, maybe just get the three most common end mill holders (http://www.grizzley.com/products/searchresults.aspx?q=end%20mill%20holder%20mt3)

And depending on how much spare change I have after I pay some bills maybe even:
Some taps (http://www.grizzley.com/products/Drill-Tap-HSS-24-pc-Set/H7819) Theirs ~$6/3set so I could always just pick up the common threads
Angle bracket to strengthen the z shaft (http://www.grizzly.com/products/Slotted-Angle-Plate-6-W-x-5-H-x-4-1-2-D/G9576)

Base: $118 tooling
w/ quick change $248
w/ EM Holder $170
All together thats $233 ($311 with quick change)

Some questions:
1) The grizzly site seems to have really decent prices and for the $10 cost of gas to get there they beet shipping across the border and waiting a week but are their sites that have really good deals?
2) whats the 'common' end mill shank sizes, sofar I see 1/2, 3/8.
3) whats common thread sizes, Ive only ever used metric but would like both
4) Does an MT3 - R8 exist or must you do a spindle swap?

Thanks again

It might be more cost effective to just get the R8 mill in the first place. Spindle conversion is a major mechanical job (involving pressing out bearings) and the parts cost $50 and up. Don't order any tooling (unless you go with Tormach) until you decide this issue, or it will be very expensive to convert.

ONE little discussed advantage of the R8 spindle is the universal drawbar size. MT3 accessories (If you get the RIGHT ones and not tang arbors) will come with either metric threads or imperial threads and you will need a different drawbar for each. R8 accessories only come with the standard R8 threads.

That end mill set has all different shank sizes. You will need a whole collet set to use them. Better to get 3/8 shanks. 3/8 and 1/2 end mill holders will do fine--If you go with Tormach, it won't matter what spindle size you end up with. What you have listed as a center finder is actually a lathe dead center.

Be sure to add a set of center drills--Grizzly H5930 or LMS 2990.

If you want Quick Change tooling--Get the Tormach end mill holders and draw bar collet from Little Machine Shop. That way you will be ready should you ever want to implement Hoss's ATC. The tormach endmill holders are spindle-neutral and also hold double ended endmills.

http://littlemachineshop.com/products/product_search.php?critFast=tormach

You needn't buy the expensive SETS. JUST the special 3/4" collet for either Mt3 or R8:

2454 MT3 $18.20 OR
2455 R8 $17.50

And end mill holders and chuck arbor:

2434 3/8 EM holder $20.75
2438 1/2 EM holder $20.75
2436 JT33 Drill chuck arbor $14.20

This is all you need to get started with QC. Once you go with these, If you later change spindle, you only need to change the 3/4" collet for <$20.

That Grizzly angle plate is much smaller than the one in the link I gave you. It won't do as good a stiffening job. The Large Enco plate costs about the same.

CR.

I am working on using the quill as my driven Z-axis in my X1. Early results have been excellent in terms of being able to do 2.5D work and I am using whopping 125oz motors on all axes.

With a stiffer spring in the spindle the backlash is reduced down into the low thousandths or less and depths are very consistently repeatable. Even without the stiffer springs it works suprisingly well and requires far less jerry-rigging than running the whole mill head up and down. You do get less travel though, which means you can't just program all your rapids at Z+3" to clear the clamps :)

I know the spindle changes depending on the factory it was made in, hopefully Ill luck out and grizzly will have an R8 one to begin with. I like the Tormach Quick Change but with 5/16, 1/4, 1/2, 3/8, most end mill sets also have a 5/8 shank. I assume this is why I would buy a jt33 chuck 20pc set (http://littlemachineshop.com/products/product_view.php?ProductID=1244&category=)

I finalized my budget for this month and only have $200 to spend on tooling and the such so I will probably forgo the taps and only get a few bits. The new shopping list:

Center Drill Set (http://www.grizzly.com/products/h5930)
Edge/Center Finder (http://littlemachineshop.com/products/product_view.php?ProductID=1959&category=)
3/8 TCQ Collet (http://littlemachineshop.com/products/product_view.php?ProductID=2455&category=)
1/2 TQC (http://littlemachineshop.com/products/product_view.php?ProductID=2438&category=)
3/8 TQC (http://littlemachineshop.com/products/product_view.php?ProductID=2434&category=)
TQC JT33 (http://littlemachineshop.com/products/product_view.php?ProductID=2436&category=)
JT33 Chuck (http://littlemachineshop.com/products/product_view.php?ProductID=1212&category=)
Keyless JT33 (http://littlemachineshop.com/products/product_view.php?ProductID=1660) (So nice)
$85.00 for Tormach Quick Change stuff
$20.00 Center drill and center finder

8-32 Tap (http://littlemachineshop.com/products/product_view.php?ProductID=2839&category=-967097768)
6-32 Tap (http://littlemachineshop.com/products/product_view.php?ProductID=2838&category=-967097768)
Tap Handle (http://littlemachineshop.com/products/product_view.php?ProductID=2853&category=) (I only use these two threads at work, handy to have, which I dont)
$15.00 for taps

Clamping Kit (http://www.grizzly.com/products/52-pc-Clamping-Kit-1-2-Bolt-Size/G1076)
1-2-3 Blocks (http://www.grizzly.com/products/1-2-3-Blocks/G5641)
Dial Indicator (http://littlemachineshop.com/products/product_view.php?ProductID=3385)
$52.00 Clamps and dial

That leaves $30 for some common end mills, probably will be able to pick up three sizes of 2 & 4 flute

Cheeper than the original list and using the Tormach I'm not stuck in using only MT3 stuff (thanks for that CR) I found a local metal supplier and I might be able to get a hefty piece of 1/2in or 3/4 pig iron, one for the base and a 90deg for the rear although the 90deg will weight like 30lbs

Ill be in Bellingham tomorrow, is their any places close to the I-5 that sell aluminum scraps so after a good cleaning I can see how badly I suck a milling?

Eventually I think ill be needing:
Vice (http://littlemachineshop.com/products/product_view.php?ProductID=1590)
Paralells (http://littlemachineshop.com/products/product_view.php?ProductID=1893)
$80.00 but thats for another time

Eventually I think ill be needing:
Vice
Paralells


Odds are you'll run into a use for a vice early on. The narrow table on the X2 makes the use of clamps difficult in many situations. The narrow table is my biggest complaint of this machine. A bigger pain than the limited y travel.

That Tormach system looks great. High on my wish list.

You're lucky to live so close to a grizzly store. I live near an American town that is little more than a gas station, post office and parcel depot. Sometimes it works best to have parcels shipped to this location. However with LMS I use Canada Post. The shipping is a bit more but my shipments have arrived tax/duty free. The last shipment was valued at $158. The customs guys always nail me when driving across with this value of merchandise. Maybe it's just been luck of the draw?

cyclestart:

I'm surprised you had to pay customs fees on $158, your allowed $600/48hrs/person spent be it on what you want. I also claim everything through my business so that might be slightly different. I'll ask on my way through and see if i can get some pointers.

The table does look pretty small epically the large border before the nut grooves. I think one of the initial projects will be a bolting table, Im not sure what their called but the 1/2in piece of steel with tapped holes would make clamping, vice and rotary mounting much easier I imagine.

You know of a good tutorial/example hand milling site, I should read up and get some practice so im not a CNC slave only.

I'm surprised you had to pay customs fees on $158, your allowed $600/48hrs/person spent be it on what you want.
48 hours? My average trip American side averages in minutes ;) Folks around here cross for a tank of gas or after work beer. Classic rural border towns situation. The customs officers are tax collectors and bored enough to go through the bother of collecting it.

I think one of the initial projects will be a bolting table, Im not sure what their called but the 1/2in piece of steel with tapped holes would make clamping, vice and rotary mounting much easier I imagine.
Sometimes called a tooling plate. I've used these on large machines and have been planning to make one for the X2. Very useful.


You know of a good tutorial/example hand milling site, I should read up and get some practice so im not a CNC slave only.
Learned this stuff the old fashioned way. Trade school followed by long hours and a lousy paycheck :) Maybe the search function at this site turns up a link?

Edit/ If you can spare the time trade schools often have an evening/weekend program. You get to chew up their material and break their tools. Great deal.

Im a journeyman electrician and have spent some time watching the millwright, living in metro Vancouver I work 20km away but takes over an hour to get home, toss in dinner and a 6am-3:30 shift and Im half dead my 9pm. Not sure how some those people can work two jobs, do night school and still go out with friends.

~$900 to do the pre-employment machinist course here, not bad considering but I rather spend $900 making, breaking and failing things.

What type of field are you in? Ive met a guy who works at Standens and made bus suspension parts, he got to use a massive laser and water cutter though.

You don't need to BUY the 1/2 inch Jt33 chuck--That's what your X2 mill will COME with. Just knock the chuck off the R8 or MT3 arbor that it comes on and mount it to the Tormach JT33 arbor.

Forego (for now) the keyless chuck--You can live without it for a while. Put the $43 savings toward purchase of THIS vise (Which you DO need right now):

http://littlemachineshop.com/products/product_view.php?ProductID=1145&category=

It's not the BEST vice you can buy, but very adequate and also low-cost. It's a lot of vise for the buck--Holds well, is accurately machined and has large size capacity. I recommend this for ANYONE's starter vise.

You don't need to buy the extra mounting kit. Square it up and mount it perpendicular to the slide, (Use two tee nuts that come with the mill) with two threaded rods from your clamping kit through the slots near the vise head.

CR.

If you can possibly add another $17 dollars to your budget--I highly recommend that you get THIS set of squares:

http://www.grizzly.com/products/h2993

CR.

a Tooling plate for mini-mill:

http://littlemachineshop.com/products/product_view.php?ProductID=2708&category=

You could add some holes for positioning with steel dowells.

Also, you will need number drills for your taps. LOWES sells tap AND drill combos for < $5.

CR.

Whats a number drill?

EDIT: Their just normal drill bits, just a crazy number system I have never heard of... these (http://littlemachineshop.com/products/product_view.php?ProductID=3043&category=) I have an HSS bit kit but its all labeled in the 1/36-3/4 way

~$900 to do the pre-employment machinist course here, not bad considering but I rather spend $900 making, breaking and failing things.
I was thinking of something a little different. In Winnipeg there's a 40 hr program that's mostly hands-on time. Popular with hotrodders, model builders etc. I've thought of signing up just to get access to some large machines.


What type of field are you in? Ive met a guy who works at Standens and made bus suspension parts, he got to use a massive laser and water cutter though.
Spent most of my life (50 years right around the corner) working with machinery. Repairing, modifying, and making parts for. Currently I wear a few hats in a large warehouse. It's a transition job, but transitioning towards what is a bit unclear :)

Machining is a hobby now and I hope to keep it that way.

A friend recently bought a laser for etching stone. Large enough to cut a fair size monument. Hoping to get some play time on this thing.

Number drills are graduated in thousands of an inch from the smallest (0.0135 inch, Highest number 80) to the largest. (0.2280 inch, #1).

Taps require an exact size starter hole. Fractional bits are not finely divided enough to fit all taps. If the hole size is too large, then the screw will be too loose. If the hole size is too small, then the tap will be hard to turn and may break more easily.

Example:

6-32 tap requires a #36 drill. Number 36 is 0.1065 in diameter. The closest fractional bit is either 3/32" (.03125) or 7/64" (.109375)

8-32 tap requires a #29 drill. Number 29 is 0.136 in diameter The closest fractional bit is either 1/8" (.125) or 9/64" (.140625)

You are a MACHINIST now. You should use the proper machining tools.


FRACTIONAL DECIMAL EQUIVALENTS

1/64 0.015625 17/64 0.265625 33/64 0.515625 49/64 0.765625
1/32 0.03125 9/32 0.28125 17/32 0.53125 25/32 0.78125
3/64 0.046875 19/64 0.296875 35/64 0.546875 51/64 0.796875
1/16 0.0625 5/16 0.3125 9/16 0.5625 13/16 0.8125
5/64 0.078125 21/64 0.328125 37/64 0.578125 53/64 0.828125
3/32 0.09375 11/32 0.34375 19/32 0.59375 27/32 0.84375
7/64 0.109375 23/64 0.359375 39/64 0.609375 55/64 0.859375
1/8 0.125 3/8 0.375 5/8 0.625 7/8 0.875
9/64 0.140625 25/64 0.390625 41/64 0.640625 57/64 0.890625
5/32 0.15625 13/32 0.40625 21/32 0.65625 29/32 0.90625
11/64 0.171875 27/64 0.421875 43/64 0.671875 59/64 0.921875
3/16 0.1875 7/16 0.4375 11/16 0.6875 15/16 0.9375
13/64 0.203125 29/64 0.453125 45/64 0.703125 61/64 0.953125
7/32 0.21875 15/32 0.46875 23/32 0.71875 31/32 0.96875
15/64 0.234375 31/64 0.484375 47/64 0.734375 63/64 0.984375
1/4 0.250 1/2 0.500 3/4 0.750 1 1.000



NUMBER DRILL SIZES

No. Size of No. in Decimals No. Size of No. in Decimals No. Size of No. in Decimals No. Size of No. in Decimals
1 0.2280 21 0.1590 41 0.0960 61 0.0390
2 0.2210 22 0.1570 42 0.0935 62 0.0380
3 0.2130 23 0.1540 43 0.0890 63 0.0370
4 0.2090 24 0.1520 44 0.0860 64 0.0360
5 0.2055 25 0.1495 45 0.0820 65 0.0350
6 0.2040 26 0.1470 46 0.0810 66 0.0330
7 0.2010 27 0.1440 47 0.0785 67 0.0320
8 0.1990 28 0.1405 48 0.0760 68 0.0310
9 0.1960 29 0.1360 49 0.0730 69 0.02925
10 0.1935 30 0.1285 50 0.0700 70 0.0280
11 0.1910 31 0.1200 51 0.0670 71 0.0260
12 0.1890 32 0.1160 52 0.0635 72 0.0250
13 0.1850 33 0.1130 53 0.0595 73 0.0240
14 0.1820 34 0.1110 54 0.0550 74 0.0225
15 0.1800 35 0.1100 55 0.0520 75 0.0210
16 0.1770 36 0.1065 56 0.0465 76 0.0200
17 0.1730 37 0.1040 57 0.0430 77 0.0180
18 0.1695 38 0.1015 58 0.0420 78 0.0160
19 0.1660 39 0.0995 59 0.0410 79 0.0145
20 0.1610 40 0.0980 60 0.0400 80 0.0135

Number drill set:

http://www.harborfreight.com/cpi/ctaf/displayitem.taf?Itemnumber=34627

CR.

Ahh thanks for explaining that one too me CR, I remember passing a lowes last weekend so Ill stop by and see if they got some of the bit/tap sets.

Ill be leaving in an hour or so and when I get home Ill report back with all my goodies and some pictures, Thanks for all the help guys.

Nice endmill set:

http://www.wttool.com/product-exec/product_id/30885/nm/6_Pc_2_Flute_3_8_Shank_End_Mill_Set

CR.

WOW.. and not in the good way

Left and heard on the radio I-5 down to one lane fri-tue for re-paving, border crossing down to 4 booths. I got to the lineup at 10:45ish and its was 12km away from the crossing, 12KM!!!

So needless to say Theirs no way im getting across the border this weekend T_T so much for my long weekend of setup fun.

http://www.bespoketech.net/friends_share/sparkfun/border.JPG
Red was the lineup, Blue is my path and it took me almost 3hrs to escape from the queue

hey iceblu3710,

I'm very curious as to how things turned out in the end.

I'm in a similar situation, in Vancouver and lusting after a mill big time.
I'm a novice woodworker/luthier, and need a few bits and pieces machined from aluminium soon. Add to that the fact that I need a drill press, and I can also justify getting an x1...

How did you get that price for the x2, and did you get stung for much by customs?

-e

Add to that the fact that I need a drill press, and I can also justify getting an x1...

I am one of the X1's defenders around here, it is a heck of a lot of mill for the price, but you can get a much better drill press at HF for about $50-$60.

The biggest limitation on the X1 is that the spindle travel is only a little over 1", and crankining the head up and down to change drill bits is a lot more tiring than raising and lowering a table on a drill press.

Other thing to bear in mind is horsepower. If you are going to be swinging any big Forstner-style or boring bits, the X1 will not cut it. Literally. The cheapest 1HP floor-standing press at HF will do much better than any of these mill/drills for woodworking uses.

hmm, thanks for that info sansbury, maybe i'll look into the x2.

Survey says NO :)

The X2 is nicer to crank up and down than the X1 but for the $250 more you pay for it you can buy a full-size drill press and then some, or a bench press and have plenty of cash left over.

Unless space is at a huge premium in your shop, you are going to be far happier with any mill plus any drill press than any mill by itself. Mill setups can take a lot of time and often you just need to knock a quick hole or two in a piece that you can't put on the mill without disturbing it. Just my humble opinion :)

Space is at a premium (apartment living ain't easy :), but I'd also like to do some milling, and learning some machining. While I will probably use a mill as a drill press for wood, the main reason I would get it would be for milling metal.

Just noticed that the toolsnow.com are a) shipping to canada now and b) selling the x2 (at least I think it's the X2!) for $399:

http://www.toolsnow.com/browse.cfm/4,1485.html

Just noticed that the toolsnow.com are a) shipping to canada now and b) selling the x2 (at least I think it's the X2!) for $399:


But how much will UPS charge to bring it to your door?
Shipping to an eastern state was quoted at ~$200
http://www.cnczone.com/forums/showpost.php?p=445705&postcount=17
Expect considerably more for Canadian delivery.

Thanks for the warning cyclestart.
I'm still not sure I was prepared to hear "$384.73"...

I guess that explains how they can afford to be so much cheaper than anyone else.

Back to square one, ah well

-e