I'm in the middle of researching my HAAS purchase and was wondering how quick I "should" be able to start making chips using the Quick Code programing?

I've never ran a cnc machine and what I know about machining in general is completely self taught. I've pretty much ran my manual mill 5 days a week for going on 5 years, so I know my way around a knee mill.

I do understand the importance of G code and do plan on learning it in the future. But, I would like to make the transition into CNC and be able continue to make my current products utilizing the Quick Code. The stuff I currently make is not complex at all so I'm hoping the quick code will help me get out of the gate.

I guess I'm concerned because the questions I see asked involving programing a HAAS has to do with G code. I don't believe I've ever seen anything about Quick code. I've searched for video to review online involving QC but haven't found any. It seems like HAAS would have this info out there for potential customers to review, but it doesn't seem to be the case.

......I do understand the importance of G code and do plan on learning it in the future....

Here is my standard response. Why waste time learning Quick Code if you plan on learning G code in the future? Everything that can be done in Quick Code can be directly programmed using G code.

Even if you get into CAD/CAM you need to know G code...otherwise how do you know you have optimized your CAM output, particularly for simple programs.

Because I have a slew of products I currently make and I would like to make a quick transition to CNC. I'm under the impression that quick code can be picked up in a few days, where as g-code could take years to master.

But then again that's why I'm asking, I really don't know. At this point I have found ZERO information on VQC.

I get the impression you're not for the quick code program?

....where as g-code could take years to master....

Whoever gave you this impression is totally out to lunch. I am a Machinist, the proper full apprenticehsip kind, so I do know machining, but I had never touched a CNC machine until I bought a Haas HL1 in 1999. It took me six weeks to get a working program; since then I have written hundreds of lathe programs. I bought a VF0 in March of 2000 and this time it took me three weeks to get a working program. G coding is dead simple if you are at all logical and can follow a sequence of operations.

It is possible you will have a program quicker using Quick Code I have no idea, I took one look at all the gobbledy gook and figured it was a waste of time learning it when I got the VF0. One thing I am sure of is that for the most efficient programs hand coding is the way to go if it is possible to hand code. For complex 3D contours you have to use CAM, but Quick Code is no help here either.

I've started designing in Solid Works and have the majority of my parts designed. Would I be further ahead in making chips by sending those drawings to a CAM program to generate the g code, instead of utilizing the QC?

I'm with Geof on this one...while QC looks good to a new machine buyer it also reduces your "knowledge",if you learn G code(which aint that hard on a lathe)..you should be ble to run most any machine.

If you've access to a cam package,then run with that....just jump in!

If you are not doing large numbers of each part and if you have drawings for all of them it will certainly be quicker to go the CAM route. Your CAM programs will run slower than a hand coded program but when part numbers are low what you gain in time saved up front can compensate for time wasted in the machine running time.

If your numbers are large, i.e. many hundreds or even thousands, and if it is possible to hand code, i.e. no complex 3D contours, then hand coding will probably be better. You do spend more time up front, but this is recovered with the faster running programs over a large number of parts.

You'll need to know G-code to use any programming method (Cam program, Quick Code or Visual Quick Code). The advantage of QC and VQC is quick setup of basic operations. I've assembled some simple programs at the control using VQC.

Most times, I forget the 'form' that a canned cycle needs. So I can call it up with VQC, then tune the G-code it generates. Or it can automate tedious tasks such as facing a part. It'll generate all of the back & forth passes for you without typing them over and over.

There is no way you can use QC or VQC to completely program an actual part, unless the part is a rectangular plate with a regular hole pattern on it.

Have you actually downloaded the Mill programming manuals from their website? G-code is not that complicated. Of course, the more complex the parts, the more likely you will need a CAM program.

The training page:
http://www.haascnc.com/custserv_training.asp#custserv

The Mill manuals:
http://www.haascnc.com/training/MillProgram_PDF/xMcb.pdf
http://www.haascnc.com/training/MillProgram_PDF/xmwb.pdf
http://www.haascnc.com/training/MillProgram_PDF/xmtips.pdf

......I get the impression you're not for the quick code program?

Obviously even people who have used Quick Code are not for it either. :) Makes me glad I didn' waste my time.

What I have done is prepare my own template programs for doing routine procedures. I described someplace a template facing program that I can adapte for a single pass over any rectangular area by entering two work zeroes, G54 and G55, and editing three places in the program. If I want to take multiple passes to remove more material I have to edit a couple more places. I doubt that it would be any quicker with Quick Code.

I started out looking at the TM's. They are marketing these with "Intuitive Programing Systems". "No G-code knowledge necessary for full CNC operation."

Is the "Intuitive Programing System" just the QC or VQC program?

No, Intuitive Programming System (IPS) is a third method. It's been discussed on here. IPS on the mill sucks. IPS on the lathe is useful.

You still can't produce complex parts on it. Squares, hole patterns, simple pockets: yes. Tapers, rounded surfaces, irregular bolt patterns: no. And even if you do, you'll very quickly find yourself learning G-code just so you can understand why the cutter traveled up when you wanted it to go down.

OK, as of right now I'm not trying to get out of learning G code. (LOL) But trying to understand the different machines and programing software.

Is it safe to say that the VF-2 does NOT have "Shop Floor Programing"?

Is the QC and VQC considered "Shop Floor Programing"?

.....Is it safe to say that the VF-2 does NOT have "Shop Floor Programing"?...


What do you mean by this?

On Haas machines you can do all the programming at the controller on the machine. They have a very good editor that allows you to copy and paste with a Clipboard function,Lline Numbering, Find and Replace, Exchange X and Y; in short all manner of features.

Or you can write a G-code program in a text editor like Notepad, or create one from CAM, and then load it either through the RS232 port or by USB.

Or you can spend $1600 on a Haas Mill/Lathe Simulator which gives you a full controller that can run programs in graphics the same as the machine controller and has all the editing features: it is a machine controller and can boot up in Mill mode or Lathe mode. You can verify programs on the Simulator because it will even pretend it is running the machine with the axes moving and the spindle turning. Then you can safe the program onto a USB drive and take it to your machine. I have a Simulator at my prototype shop and find it invaluable, and have long ago recovered the purchase price in time saved. On long programs with ten or more tools processing multiple parts I can verify them on the Simulator while my machine is working on other parts. Then they can be transferred to the machine and I only need to spend a few minutes checking offsets before I am confident enough to push the green button and let it run. Also the Simulator is a good place to keep back ups of programs.

What do you mean by this?

I guess what I meant was, that if you look at the lower priced milling machines, they are all being advertised as "Shop Floor Programmable" machines. They claim that no G code knowledge is necessary. I've seen some pretty cool demos that seemed pretty powerful, but then again I don't know much about the industry.

I'm beginning to think the whole thing is little more than a sham. The deeper I dig, the bigger the hole gets. The gap between moving from a manual mill to a CNC is way bigger than the manufacturers claim, or so it seems.

There are basicaly three ways to get a program. Use a cam system
Write the code yourself either on a text editor or at the control, or use the "programming" system in the control. Haas' is called Visual Quick Code. Fanuc is called Manual Guide. Mori is called MAPPS. Okuma is called IGF. Mazak is called Mazatrol. All of them require you to fiddle with page after page to get a little code. Geof is right. Simple code for a lathe, hand code it. Or modify a program you already have. Complex stuff use a cam system. Now...here comes the rub...
Say you got a customer what sent you a cad file and you quick coded it and screwed up a number. Made five hunnert parts all wrong. They are yours. You didn't use his cad data. You used your own. If his model was wrong and you made them to his model, you get paid, nine times out of ten. I rarely ever see a paper drawing.
Same thing with the hand coded program. One little number and those parts are yours. I LIKE it when customers send me the cad data.

Here's a solution: invest three days of your life. Drive out to Oxnard. Take the mill programming class (free). It'll cost you a hotel, some gas and some meals.

If you discover that G-code ain't that hard, you buy a machine and now you know how to get running.

If you decide that CNC just ain't your bag, it only cost you three days to figure that out.

I took the class 6 months before I bought my machine. It made me wiser during the decision process and prepared me for when the machine did arrive.

In the business world, three days of your time is a cheap investment to help you make an informed decision.

.......I'm beginning to think the whole thing is little more than a sham. The deeper I dig, the bigger the hole gets. The gap between moving from a manual mill to a CNC is way bigger than the manufacturers claim, or so it seems.

Maybe 'sham' is too strong. Shall we say the manufacturers dress things up in the most attractive manner possible.

I think the manufacturers with their dummied down approach to programming are using a marketing ploy. And here I am probably going to irritate some guys around my age or a bit younger. I think the target market for Haas is an older guy who has worked for many years on manual machines who has dreams of starting his own business. This guy has paid of the mortgage on his house a while back and it has increased in value so suddenly he finds he can borrow the purchase price of the machine against his home. NOTE; I am talking about what it was like a few years ago, things have changed recently. But this guy is nervous, he has never used CNC and learning G code is complicated, or so he has been told. But hey, Haas has this neat system that allows for conversational programming using words that he is familiar with from his manual experience. So he has the confidence to buy the machine and Haas has made a sale.

I am not really being critical of Haas or the guy; they both made their decision. I was in the position of the older guy a few years ago when I converted from all manual machines to all CNC. But I figured I could learn G code and I did. It is not that difficult although the explanations in some books sure make it seem that way. And once you have learnt it and are comfortable with it you can do things much faster than any manual machine.

I know now that I just have to commit to learning G code. I’m a little frustrated because you guys aren’t telling me what I want to hear. (LOL) But, I know I’m getting a straight up answer and I am hearing what you have to say.

From the little I’ve picked up on G code; it really doesn’t look that difficult. To me the approach doesn’t seem much different than the approach of running a knee mill. The approach really feels kind of natural because of the thought process that goes into machining a part manually. Or so it seems at this point.

I feel much more informed in what to expect and what route to take. I’ve been racking my brain on this CNC deal for a few years now, but I really want to spend my money correctly up front the first time. I owe lots of thanks to everyone that is helping out in this thread and others over the years. I feel I’m narrowing down the playing field.

When you are learning G code you might get frustrated because the different letters that are used many times do not have any connection to what they represent. F for Feed is okay, D for diameter as in tool diameter, or radius, but if you are entering it from a G10 command you will use R for the same thing. I? What is I? It can be an incremental distance along the X axis from where the tool is to the center of a circle for a G02 or G03 interpolation. But it can also be an angular position for some canned cycles. G what does G stand for....General code of course, and M Miscellaneous code. Because there is no linkage between the letter and what it describes it makes remembering the codes more difficult.

I'll throw my 2 cent's in here Luke by asking you a question,how long did it take you to figure out how to use your computer? Lets say,micrsoft word,quiken,norton,the list goes on.Well it takes about as long to learn the basic's of g-code programing,if you figured out how to get here and post this question you should be able to learn it with to much troble.

The visual quick code is pretty much a waste, it will do very basic programs.
If you plan on getting into to cnc, you will need to know G code.

CNC is really neat stuff, for sure. If you plan on making parts, and not wasting alot time, find a cad cam system, that you like, and can afford, and master it inside and out. A good cad cam system will let you cut the part the way you want.


I have master cam, and know it really good, I can get G code on a part pretty quick. The cad cam will be your best best friend for sure.

Good luck with your venture making chips.

The gap between moving from a manual mill to a CNC is way bigger than the manufacturers claim, or so it seems.

I feel that the gap is quite small. While there are a lot of G codes (and M codes and the syntax that goes along with each) to memorize, only a handful required to start your transition.

For example, if you want to cut a square pocket with a manual mill, it may look something like:
- move the cutter to one corner of the pocket (call it 0,0)
- set the spindle speed (gears, belts, VFD)
- turn on the coolant
- turn on the spindle
- plunge the cutter to the proper depth
- move to X = 1
- move to Y = 1
- move to X = 0
- move to Y = 0
- retract the cutter
- turn off the spindle
- turn off the coolant

On the CNC, it would look like:
G00 X0. Y0. (rapid to start point)
S2000 (set spindle speed)
M08 (coolant on)
M03 (spindle on)
G01 Z-.1 F5. (feed down into material, F is feedrate in ipm)
(next 4 lines, cut pocket)
G01 X1. F20.
G01 Y1.
G01 X0.
G01 Y0.
G01 Z.1 (retract cutter)
M05 (spindle off)
M09 (coolant off)
M30 (end of program)

By learning only a few of G codes and M codes, you will quickly be able to do the same on a CNC as you can with a manual.

Canned cycles are great. G81 (drilling), G83 (peck drilling), G84 (tapping), G85 (reaming), etc. For example, G83 X1. Y2. Z-2. R.1 Q.05 F5. will peck drill a hole at X=1, Y=2 that is 2" deep, starting at .1" above the stock, with pecks that are .05", at 5 ipm. No more plunging/retracting the quill by hand.

After that, learning the rest of the G codes help to make you more efficient (among other things). Work offsets and tool length offsets are indespensible.

I started on a manual, but quickly moved to CNC. I have never looked back.

I only used VQC once, because I forced myself to try it. I didn't find it particularly useful, but that's because I use CAM for almost everything.

While I was typing this, fuzzyracing1967 and Geof got their replies in. Memorizing what G codes are is like learning what the certain keys do in different Windows applications. If you can remember CTRL+C and CRTL+V, G code will come quickly.

Good luck,
Chris Kirchen

To add to what Chris just posted: when I'm planning a part on the lathe, I start the program by writing out the comments in plain English but I put everything in parentheses. Anything inside parentheses is ignored by the control.

I script what I want to do in plain English to get my thoughts straight. Then I go back and one line at a time, add the G & M codes. After a few lines, you start remembering the codes and just editing away. It reinforces the learning as well as keeps your thoughts straight.

As the program is executing, you also have line-by-line comments on what it's supposed to be doing.

One more plug for the VQC though. It is still handy. If I walk up to the control and want to drill & tap a dozen holes in a straight line, one inch apart, I could write it manually. I could also call up a template that will build the program for me by just answering a few questions.

For me, it means that I'm starting to use the CNC for even the most basic operations. For the few extra minutes it takes to program a faced, drilled and tapped holding plate, I save it by not scattering chips all over the shop with the manual mill.

VQC still has its place and it's still valuable but it's not a substitute for learning G code.

....If I walk up to the control and want to drill & tap a dozen holes in a straight line, one inch apart, I could write it manually....

Or you could use the G72 canned cycle on the mill.



And I admit I cheated...I had to consult as manual to confirm it was G72 not G71; I guess the old brain is getting old.

Funny but whenever I manually G code on the lathe,my right index finger seems to follow what the tool should do!

Or you could use the G72 canned cycle on the mill.
Hey, now don't go confusing me. :)

Just the other night, I thought I had a slick solution for a problem on the lathe, only to discover that there is no incremental positioning (G90/91) on the lathe. :withstupi

Hey, now don't go confusing me. :)

Just the other night, I thought I had a slick solution for a problem on the lathe, only to discover that there is no incremental positioning (G90/91) on the lathe. :withstupi

Correct, G90 and G91 are not lathe codes. Lathe incremental uses U for X and W for Z; G01 U3.3 moves the X axis incrementally 3.3.

Correct, G90 and G91 are not lathe codes. Lathe incremental uses U for X and W for Z; G01 U3.3 moves the X axis incrementally 3.3.
Geof...thank you. :)

I needed to touch-up a spherical surface. I just wanted to turn the spindle on, touch off at the base, then have the tool cut a spherical path from wherever the tool was. I had to touch off G54 each time to get it done.

I was looking for incremental positioning (mode) but totally forgot about U,W.

Luke: hang around here long enough and you'll pick it up.

Thanks for all the tips. I really like the idea Donkey Hotey posted "writing it in plain English using (**) then adding the code. That really is right up my alley.

I'm actually pretty stoked about the whole thing. At least now I know that learning G code is not an option but a necessity. It makes it easier to move forward without the idea of learning it later. At least it won't be hanging over my head weighing down on me. :)

I'm dabbling in Solidworks and it's working for me nicely, can someone suggest a cam program that works well with it?

....I really like the idea Donkey Hotey posted "writing it in plain English......

That is the part I find difficult....writing in plain English. :D

Code is dead simple and the machine never complains about bad grammar or run-on sentences. The people who read my 'plain English' often do.

I predict that you will get very frustrated learning G code, and will occasionally look around for a concrete wall to bash your head against. Don't worry, it all becomes clear eventually.

I'm dabbling in Solidworks and it's working for me nicely, can someone suggest a cam program that works well with it?
That's been discussed here at length:
http://cnczone.com/forums/showthread.php?t=47860

is the part I find difficult....writing in plain English. :D

Code is dead simple and the machine never complains about bad grammar or run-on sentences. The people who read my 'plain English' often do.


I gess plane englis dos not hav to nessasaruly b text buk geanus tu get ur punt acrost espsuly wen u ar writng nots to ur self. :withstupi


:)

I gess plane englis dos not hav to nessasaruly b text buk geanus tu get ur punt acrost espsuly wen u ar writng nots to ur self. :withstupi


:)

I find it fascinating how with english it is possible to do what you did, and it can still be understood. But you slipped up, there are seven words spelled correctly. :D

Aoccdrnig to a rscheearch at Cmabrigde Uinervtisy, it deosn't mttaer in waht oredr the ltteers in a wrod are, the olny iprmoetnt tihng is taht the frist and lsat ltteer be at the rghit pclae. The rset can be a toatl mses and you can sitll raed it wouthit porbelm. Tihs is bcuseae the huamn mnid deos not raed ervey lteter by istlef, but the wrod as a wlohe.

I gesus tehre raelly is no scuh tihng as pilan Egnilsh!

I'm new to CNCzone. And I agree that the best thing is to know G-code, however VQC when it is modified correctly can be a great tool for 1 to 2 piece orders for lathe or Mill. there are modified templates to profile ends of a part or mill keyways using comp. I found some to be useful. and as long as the correct information is given in the template the control will output the code you need.

Good Luck!

Here's a solution: invest three days of your life. Drive out to Oxnard. Take the mill programming class (free). It'll cost you a hotel, some gas and some meals.

In the business world, three days of your time is a cheap investment to help you make an informed decision.

I intended to ask about this a few days ago and forgot. Can you give a little more on this? Is this something at the HAAS factory?

Call Haas direct, they can answer your questions.

Hi!

I read all the posts in this thread and they all talk about the need to master G-Code. I'm new to this world of cnc, but I already programed some cool stuff and even 3d pieces, but with the aid of a cam software linked to solidworks. Imagine that I want to go back to the begining of the cnc era. Where can I find info about the G-Code, so I could learn it and try to do something with it?

I use a SCM Record 110 al prisma, (5 axis) and I also know how to use their Xilog program nicely! I even manage to find errors, (most of the times in plane angles) in Xilog. But in my company there's an older cnc machine that operates on G-Code, I understand how it works, but I don't know the code itself. Can anyone help me on this?

Can you give a little more on this? Is this something at the HAAS factory?
Yup. It's a three day class. The third day includes a walking tour of the factory (you won't forget that). It's not like traffic school. If you're thinking of spending this kind of cabbage, it's gotta' feel good learning all of the information up-front. I had a really good time and felt like it was time well spent.

The class helped me to understand the control. I got nice, color printed manuals out of it (you can download them for free but who can afford to print them in color?). I got to meet other guys in the class who had been using it. Some were owners. Some were operators. They all had opinions and experiences they shared during lunch. Haas feeds you lunch on-site. It's not gourmet but it was the best box lunches I've ever been served at a company.

I mean, really: for the amount of money you're thinking about spending, the time and money investment is small. You'll know what kind of machine and company you're buying in to. You'll know something about how to run it when you leave.

I took the class but didn't buy for another 6 months. I was able to run my VF-2 the night it was delivered. I didn't get any on-site training other than the installer helping me with a 15 minute refresher before he left.

I'm not hard-selling you on it, but for me: I have spent three days doing far-less valuable things in my life.

That's awesome it's only and 8 hr drive (530 miles). I had no idea they had a class like this.
Is there any information on this on their website? I didn't really see anything about it.

I mean, really: for the amount of money you're thinking about spending, the time and money investment is small.

I couldn't agree more! I guess that's why I've been researching for more than 2 years. But time is wasting away! (nuts)

Can you give me a quick review of the class structure and what to expect?

It's all on their website:

http://www.haascnc.com/custserv_training.asp#custserv

I think Dean Cunningham is running the customer training classes right now but I'm not sure. I guess you could start with an email to Gene Saltis (the training manager--all email addresses are on that page). He's the guy that cost me $150K (I didn't think I could afford my own CNC). I hate that guy. :D

Unless they've changed things, they only run the class once a month and it's first-come, first-served. Get on the list ASAP because they have a rush of new customers after shows like Westec. It might take a few months to get in. I think I started in April and couldn't get in until the June class. You might get lucky. The point: if you can get a date, don't hesitate--grab it.

As for outline: they're basically going to follow this manual. You'll do most (or all) of the exercises before you leave:
http://www.haascnc.com/training/MillProgram_PDF/xmwb.pdf

Hah! Well, excuuuuussse me. :)

I talked to them at Westec today. It seems they haven't been doing training at the factory for about a year now. I was wrong. No more cool training sessions.

It's handled by your local HFO now. Contact them directly. Tell them your concerns and ask if it's okay to take the training so you can get familiar with it. It's sales. They want to sell you a machine. I guess it's their responsibility now.

Well, that sucks!

Turns out classes are available through my local HFO.

"We offer a four day training class free to customers whom have purchased equipment new."

So, I guess I don't have to drive to California.

You can't replace G-code but I think you will find the QC and VQC useful
It is very fast for setting up programs for drill & tap bolt circles
also very good for thread milling and pocketing

I would say that the QC and VQC would be "shop floor programming" similar to a prototrak in that anyone can punch in a few numbers and make chips without actually knowing why it is doing what it is doing.