I want to make some of these things:
http://shinyphotos.com/pics/mat-shim.jpg

These photographic mats are made of brass (I've been using .02-.04"). I can route the basic shapes out on my hobby CNC which works fine for the basic shapes but I can't really get the detailed engraving without it taking a great deal of time.

I assume that since the brass is so thin that I could make a tool/die setup and I could press out these suckers including all of the elaborate engraving that I want. So how do I DO that? What kind of equipment do I need to make the tool/die, etc.?

I want to make some of these things:
http://shinyphotos.com/pics/mat-shim.jpg

These photographic mats are made of brass (I've been using .02-.04"). I can route the basic shapes out on my hobby CNC which works fine for the basic shapes but I can't really get the detailed engraving without it taking a great deal of time.

I assume that since the brass is so thin that I could make a tool/die setup and I could press out these suckers including all of the elaborate engraving that I want. So how do I DO that? What kind of equipment do I need to make the tool/die, etc.?

WELCOME to the CNC Zone blackhole... I'm happy to be no longer alone in the dark. Every time I asked basic beginner question or advice on a way to learn how to do something I was left to rot.

There is a strange mentality that I saw on a car painting forum once...
A guy with a Audi something needed to repair a sunburn glosscoat on a door and asked for few tips on how to do this without stripping everything and damaging the original paint. Answer from the forum owner was straight, he will not give him the knowledge because that's how he was making a living and he had to come to his shop in Alabama or Ohio to have it done... Mind you the guy was living somewhere in europe.
Other thread, same forum. The owner (of the forum and some paint shop) have trouble with his billing system and ask for advice on how to fix it because he don't want to pay support from the software company...

So it seems like in some parts of the world hardware related knowledge is highly valuable while software related knowledge should come for free...

Check on all the threads asking how to make this or that... usually 0 answers... And if you find a good tutorial site, send me a link. Because everything I find is mind bogling description of the tools and which button does what. Never how to make something with the tools... That's how knowledge is lost... as the japanese say... shoganai...

Do some search on the Internet regarding coin making....if I find it....I'll post the link.

Sometimes the answer needed is so large as to be hard to give without writing a book. Pretty poor attitude to have consdering all of the knowledge freely given at this site.

Very short explanation is you need a die set to hold the male and female coining dies. The dies need to be made in such a way as to allow the stock thickness inbetween the impressions. A press is needed to mount the die set in. This is usually a blyth type with a flywheel that stores energy for the stroke. Hydraulic presses can be used but figure much slower production. Ultimately this whole thing isn't cheaply done on any scale where you'd be making proiduct for sale. The number of parts needing to be made and sold would be huge to recover the costs.

Intricate dies aren't cheaply made. Die shoes aren't cheap, Presses aren't cheap. If you have a CNC mill, you could make your own die steels. You could cobble together some sort of apparatus to take the place of a precision die shoe. You could cobble together a HF hydraulic press to make some end product. You would never reach any sort of production capability to pay off the venture so you'd have to realize what you were doing was a hobby level effort.

The answer is a far cry more involved than telling someone to use a felt pad and water on a slow buffing machine with fine rubbing compound. I don't cringe at telling how to do this due to a loss of money. I cringe because it took me four years of working every day to learn and understand everything needed to have something like this work right the first time. You can't boil a four year apprenticeship down into a thousand word how to do it post.

I don't have any particular knowledge on stamping myself. It's a little easier to do on a smaller scale as stated. I do bend a little brass, but no stamping or engraving.

Often times when you find a question here that hasn't been answered, it is most likely because it was either posted in totally the wrong area and never even gets looked at or the question is so broad as an answer can't simply be given with an epic post as mentioned already.
Thirdly it may be a question that has been answered 1000 times already. And then sometimes peoples attitudes deter others from trying to assist with answers. If I can help, I usually try to.

I have found that if I take to time to post a question in the right place and then ask specific questions, I get more concise and complete answers. Sometimes the topic expounds or expands even further and I learn more than I had originally asked.


Good luck with this and I hope you will post follow ups and let us know how it goes.
Welcome to the Zone, BTW. :)

Like others have said, you'll need a press and dies. The dies you can do on a cnc machine, they will need to be sent out to be hardened, and then placed back in the cnc machine to touch up any expansion from the heat treat. The press depends on how thick your metal is going to be. For the pic frame that material is usually pretty light and you could probably set something up on a arbor press or foot actuated hydraulic press.
Good luck!!

http://cnczone.com/forums/showthread.php?t=14930&highlight=DIY+coin+dies

Here's the link on this site....it contains several links to other sites regarding coinstriking, etc.

I'm not sure what happened to the person that started the link, you could PM him and/or post on the thread above.

I've made small dies from drill stock where I filed the design on the end of the drill stock and then hardeded the drill stock and have used those to stamp onto silver, brass, etc.

For a die the size (3in X 4 in oval) you want (just the shearing portion is probably gonna be pretty expensive). Should you should look at just a stamping die and cut out the center using another process (CNC Mill , etc.).

I'm not sure quite what to say. I appreciate the links and advice given very much.

Regarding the idiocy of my original post... sorry to offend some individuals with such a dumb question. I find it rather interesting that my post sat in purgatory with 0 replies for six months and then it spurred all kinds of replies once someone well-know posted to the thread.

From now on I think I'll just stick to the library instead of bothering anyone here with my trivial questions.

Was this put in the wrong forum? This forum seems *pretty* specific to me but, again, I'm just an idiot who has a "pretty poor attitude."

edit:

use a felt pad and water on a slow buffing machine with fine rubbing compound.

I presume that this is a cheap dig at my art. I find this hilarious. I have written VOLUMES of e-mail and blog posts about my art that is all freely available on my site and on germane forums. When someone writes a question I answer it to the best of my ability. By the way, my art (like YOUR die-making art) is FAR more involved than your curt analysis.

Sometimes just asking the basic question and getting a basic reply is enough to give the person asking enough of the applicable words to continue researching on their own. If someone has never picked up a camera before and they're trying to figure out how a lens works then they need terms like "aperture", "iris", "stops", etc. in their vocabulary.

I'm not sure quite what to say. I appreciate the links and advice given very much.

Regarding the idiocy of my original post... sorry to offend some individuals with such a dumb question. I find it rather interesting that my post sat in purgatory with 0 replies for six months and then it spurred all kinds of replies once someone well-know posted to the thread.

From now on I think I'll just stick to the library instead of bothering anyone here with my trivial questions.

Was this put in the wrong forum? This forum seems *pretty* specific to me but, again, I'm just an idiot who has a "pretty poor attitude."

edit:



I presume that this is a cheap dig at my art. I find this hilarious. I have written VOLUMES of e-mail and blog posts about my art that is all freely available on my site and on germane forums. When someone writes a question I answer it to the best of my ability. By the way, my art (like YOUR die-making art) is FAR more involved than your curt analysis.

Sometimes just asking the basic question and getting a basic reply is enough to give the person asking enough of the applicable words to continue researching on their own. If someone has never picked up a camera before and they're trying to figure out how a lens works then they need terms like "aperture", "iris", "stops", etc. in their vocabulary.

I really dont think it was a dig on your art, the way I read it he was making a general statement about the example given about the burnt clear coat on the car. But to add to this thread. Die making is a form of art and requires very precise machining. The material then as already said, needs to be hardened.

Another option you might want to look at is lost wax casting. Of the frame or the whole picture........ here is an example of some of what I do.

Your question was apparently in the correct location. I had just never even seen it before.
I try to look at all the titles for New Posts at the top. This lets me see things I normally would not see if it were buried in some obscure forum, which for me, this was.

I like to reply to a post when I can as a shortcut to subscribing to that post as well. Especially if I have interest in seeing the outcome and possibly providing a little help. When I initially replied, I didn't realize it was a cold case. None the less, I am still interested in others thoughts and helpful links.
I have some artistic abilities myself, so I like to see all types of art. I like seeing other ways people come up with to do different types of things.

I have learned an incredible amount by participating on this forum. Much more than I would have at the library. I would not have even known some things existed to even bother looking up how to do them.

Technology changes nowadays so rapidly that to stay on top, you gotta stay online. ;)

Thanks for letting me ramble a bit. I look forward to hearing more from you.

Was this put in the wrong forum? This forum seems *pretty* specific to me but, again, I'm just an idiot who has a "pretty poor attitude."

edit:



I presume that this is a cheap dig at my art. I find this hilarious. I have written VOLUMES of e-mail and blog posts about my art that is all freely available on my site and on germane forums. When someone writes a question I answer it to the best of my ability. By the way, my art (like YOUR die-making art) is FAR more involved than your curt analysis.



Oh jeez, don't go getting all womanly. Please don't get your undies in a wad over a percieved non existant ridicule. There, now that is an offensive comment. I have no doubt about your artistic abilities and desires, nor how helpful you are at other sites. I never called you an idiot, you are a bit naive though. If you have never been unable to answer a question because it was too general and ambiguous, you've been blessed.

Ahem

My first post explained to the poster right after your first post that some questions are so general that they can encompas a book. If you read that second post, you will see that "Welcome to the Black Hole of information" used another site's unwillingness to give out a simple answer to a very simple and basic problem. I agree the other site's unwillingness to help was offensive, but the answer was an easy single sentence. Your answer requires a book.

After you have done your library research so you have an idea of the basics and the number of steps involved, it is much easier to ask questions on specific events in the process. Things like, "Will a good aluminum such as Fortal make a decent coining die set if the number of hits are less the 50." Easy answer, yes, on thin soft material, and cold rolled steel will work on thin soft materials for up to 100 or more strikes. The use of these softer materials for a temperary die set save a lot of money over heat treating and machining much harder steels.

You may wonder if you can get away with a male die bottom with just cavities in the upper die steel, instead of a female reproduction minus stock thickness plus 5%. There are SO many variables related to "How do I do this?" that an answer can't be given in three paragraphs. How much surface polishing do you need to do? What direction should the polishing go in order to form the lip in your example? What radius for the area that bends? How do you figure out the press size in tons so that it can do a good job? When folding over a lip around a parallelogram, the corners need to be cut and shaped in a special way so the material in the corner doesn't gather and form a longer lip.

As you can see, there are a lot of areas to cover for your question.

This just appears to be metal embossing. Do some research on how it is done by hand. Lots of patience there.

I can see your router creating a female mold and using something like woods metal or zinc to mold up a temporary male form. Then you might be able to create a small bag press to form the sheet slathered with forming lube and hand trim or router it. .02 brass is going to take some pressure to get detail like hydroforming it. Maybe soft copper?

I've seen similar art work done with dynamite and/or exposive forming into a cavity! LOL!

If this was a production piece, chances are a pre-cut blank was done with a single sided die and a rubber pad with a large press. The alloy grade of sheet will be the the make or break in formability at reasonable pressures. Stock brass hardware sheet probably isn't going to be that cooperative! Maybe if it could be annealed?

DC

Now I was curious about something. Can you emboss with a cnc mill or router? I would think so. Using a couple different sized tools, you could theoretically emboss pretty darn elegant designs. Multiple passes. Softer material like a cutting mat or something underneath. Maybe even rubber.

Crap! I think i may have just given myself something else to try out, WHEN I GET TIME. ;)

Now I was curious about something. Can you emboss with a cnc mill or router? I would think so. Using a couple different sized tools, you could theoretically emboss pretty darn elegant designs. Multiple passes. Softer material like a cutting mat or something underneath. Maybe even rubber.

Crap! I think i may have just given myself something else to try out, WHEN I GET TIME. ;)

Well sort of and I don't see why not. There was a youtube video of a spinning mandrel running over a sheet as the die was raised from below. Not exactly efficient, but if power is work done over time, it did form metal.

Youtube metal forming

That is cool. Similar to what I had in mind, but the other directions and not near that deep. I wasn't thinking about spinning the tool either. It seems they are still using a dies from below.
I think you would have a very tough part if that is stainless they are doing that to. Likely pretty hard regardless. :)

To do the embossing like I was thinking, it might actually need a spring loaded tool. Maybe not. I think a vacuum hold down might work best too.
A small pallet could be made up for this purposely though. I am sure some trial and error would be needed, but I do think nice results could be achieved like this.
Could be done on a mill or a router. I think I am talking myself into trying it out. :)

Well since you're working from the backside....I believe it's called Repousse (sp?)...So, you need a slightly resilient surface....well actually the surface must deform and stay deformed otherwise it would push back and distory your panel and the design. Years back pitch was popular...not sure if they have some similiar that is more up to date.

Thanks Viper. I knew there was another name for the hand process, but I couldn't come up with it for noth'n.

Leeway,

Notice how rigid the machine that is forming the sheet and how the sheet is clamped in a frame? The die does come up from under the sheet each pass so there is very little Z motion of the spindle. The material is being stretched at the point of contact only. I cannot imagine vacuum of any benefit. At least for the Posters picture frame since there is nothing symetrical about that surface. I'd expect the sheet to contort all over the place as pin pointed material is put in tension to achieve elongation at the forming tool. With a slim possibility of having first cut the die profile, then using that cut path or geometry to step down a forming tool in similar fashion to the vidio clip. Keeping all the tension in balance? Pretty slow though!

I think, if'n it were my project. I would rather use low temp metals and cast the mold, polish then press. I must be losing that artisan patience in my old age! LOL!

DC

I understand how the video was working. Heating locally to stretch the metal and the die would move up.

The end result I was thinking of is more a bas relief.

Repousse (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Repouss%C3%A9_and_chasing) would work as a term for it as well. Chasing too.

The end result would be a design that stands out from the surface. Much the same things as the 3D drawings that are carved away, instead of carving, this is bending to create a 3D image or surface. From both sides if wanted.

I did a few bas reliefs before by hand. We were using heavy gage foils. I am thinking if you use like .010" thickness sheet, you would have enough metal there to form such a 3D image.

Since it is bending locally, it may not distort the entire panel. Therefore vacuum hold down around the perimeter may just work. I am sure trial and error would have to be done.

I do have the parts I was going to use to start trying some aluminum casting. Just haven't needed to try that out yet in earnest.

Maybe another approach...I had some experience with a 2 part resin casting company a few years back. We mixed brass powder in the resin and buffed the finish after molding couldnt tell the difference in the cast and original except for the cost. molds were made from silicone. took about 5 minutes to cast. As for thickness and details of carvings or stampings....perfect. The supplier showed us bird skeletons made from this material and the details were excellant and paper thin. The archelogical restorers use these resins to replicate Dino's in museums so the applications

I've handled some of the old tintype style case mattes before and they are reaaaally thin, barely thicker than foil.

I'd say you could get by with one aluminum die and a firm but flexible material on another flat die to press the brass into the recesses.

Hope the pic helps.

-Ed