Hi,

I would like to know what you guys think of this indexable end mill? Please keep in mind it will be used in a hobby environment for one's and two's not production work, cutting 12L14 (ENA1) steel and aluminium.

http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/16MM-INDEXABLE-ENDMILL-CUTTER-10-PC-CARBIDE-INSERT-B34_W0QQitemZ110228640028QQihZ001QQcategoryZ12584QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem

Do you think it will end up in a draw never to see the light of day again?

Should I spend more on a known quality brand?

Thanks for any input,:)
John

For £32? Go for it!I bet it's just as good as any other.

A couple of things to consider.

First, at 16mm = about 5/8", for me, that would be a bit marginal for a straight end mill. The reason? Because a regular 1/2" endmill will do just about everything that one will and more for a lot less money. True, you have to replace it or sharpen it periodically, but there's more flexibility.

I prefer to get larger, say 25mm/1" before I look at an end mill like this.

Second, for indexable tools, geometry and insert design matters a lot. I won't buy one unless I can determine that it has high positive rake geometry. I went looking on this one to try to see if I could find that info on the web, and couldn't find any indication one way or the other. Positive rake will give lower cutting forces which is better in most cases for the home shop machinist. The only advantage of negative rake tooling is longevity and sometimes being able to use more edges on the insert (largely a factor for lathe tooling).

I prefer to spend more money and get a larger, name brand, indexable mill with definite positive rake. If you look long and hard, you will eventually find one. Don't be afraid to look on US eBay either--shipping for such a small piece of tooling will be minimal.

I own a 1" Iscar Helimill that's a fantastic little cutter. I also have a Lovejoy facemill that's 3" and is my favorite for all but final finish. The finish is fine, but I like the look of a single pass, so I use a fly cutter on the last pass for anything over the 3" width my Lovejoy will handle.

Both of these are positive rake. That brings me to my last point. Be sure to price inserts before you buy a cutter. My Lovejoy face mill was brand new and sold by Lovejoy themselves on eBay. The downside is new SPEX inserts are hard to find and not cheap.

I hope this has helped.

Best,

BW

nothing wrong with that price , for the price of the inserts alone you are more or less getting the tool for free
MITSUBISHI isnt junk
as for your question , your the only one who knows if it will be sitting in the drawer

Second, for indexable tools, geometry and insert design matters a lot. I won't buy one unless I can determine that it has high positive rake geometry. I went looking on this one to try to see if I could find that info on the web, and couldn't find any indication one way or the other. Positive rake will give lower cutting forces which is better in most cases for the home shop machinist. The only advantage of negative rake tooling is longevity and sometimes being able to use more edges on the insert (largely a factor for lathe tooling).
I hope this has helped.

Best,

BW

I will contact the seller and see what I can find out about the negative/positive rake. What would you call a “high positive rake” in degrees?

My mill only has 1.3 HP (1000 watts) and the largest recommended end mill is only 16mm but I am unsure how this would apply to an indexable?


MITSUBISHI isnt junk

That’s good to know thanks

I am happy to buy from the US so will do a world wide search but in the mean time if any one would like to make a recommendation on a reasonably price quality tool I am all ears. Any links would also be appreciated. :)

Thanks,
John

Hi:
For home/hobby use indexable tools are a waste of money (in my opinion).
It's nice to have some indexable facemills for bigger jobs, but for C12L14 id just stick to HSS. The whole purpose behind indexable tooling is for production, where when last I checked the average life expectancy of an insert was 15 min of service.
I'm not trying to flame you, but indexable tools really are designed to "fly", and for the size of the mill described, I'd recommend sticking to HSS.

just my 2c cents

cheers

Hi:
the average life expectancy of an insert was 15 min of service.



????
index tools will fly or hog
ive run them for hrs if not days under full production without changing an insert

running hss in my opinion is a joke ,carbide is the way to go , if your resourcefull they don t cost much at all

Hi:
For home/hobby use indexable tools are a waste of money (in my opinion).
It's nice to have some indexable facemills for bigger jobs, but for C12L14 id just stick to HSS. The whole purpose behind indexable tooling is for production, where when last I checked the average life expectancy of an insert was 15 min of service.
I'm not trying to flame you, but indexable tools really are designed to "fly", and for the size of the mill described, I'd recommend sticking to HSS.

just my 2c cents

cheers

All opinions are very welcome and will be taken into consideration.

Thanks for your time :)

John

running hss in my opinion is a joke ,carbide is the way to go , if your resourcefull they don t cost much at all

I don't buy HSS after reading threads on the Zone.

John

I think a good reason for indexable even for a hobbyist with an under powered mill is that with Ebay insert prices it would work out cheaper than buying standard carbide end mills.

Might be wrong :D
John

I think a good reason for indexable even for a hobbyist with an under powered mill is that with Ebay insert prices it would work out cheaper than buying standard carbide end mills.

Might be wrong :D
John

No, I think that's exactly right. That's why I look at the 1" and larger figure.

I don't know what mil you have, so I can't advise whether you would have use for a bigger end mill. Which model is it?

RE number of degrees of positive rake, that's going to be very application specific. You can get the rake from either the way the insert is mounted or the insert itself. Very often it is a combination.

I'd ask the seller to point you to the manufacturer's web page for the end mill. Take a look there and just see if positive rake is mentioned. For example, here is the Lovejoy facemill page I mentioned:

http://www.lovejoytool.com/f225.htm

It mentions both the positive rake and goes on to say, "ideal for small and light duty machines in general purpose applications." That's us home guys! Most of the manufacturers will make such a mention.

Your 12L14 leaded steel should be very easy to machine, BTW. You won't need the last word in cutter technology to do it. Nevertheless, eventually you'll want to cut something else.

And I would definitely not discourage carbide on these small machines. It works great.

Best,

BW

No, I think that's exactly right. That's why I look at the 1" and larger figure.

I don't know what mil you have, so I can't advise whether you would have use for a bigger end mill. Which model is it?

RE number of degrees of positive rake, that's going to be very application specific. You can get the rake from either the way the insert is mounted or the insert itself. Very often it is a combination.

I'd ask the seller to point you to the manufacturer's web page for the end mill. Take a look there and just see if positive rake is mentioned. For example, here is the Lovejoy facemill page I mentioned:

http://www.lovejoytool.com/f225.htm

It mentions both the positive rake and goes on to say, "ideal for small and light duty machines in general purpose applications." That's us home guys! Most of the manufacturers will make such a mention.

Your 12L14 leaded steel should be very easy to machine, BTW. You won't need the last word in cutter technology to do it. Nevertheless, eventually you'll want to cut something else.

And I would definitely not discourage carbide on these small machines. It works great.

Best,

BW

My Mill http://www.chesteruk.net/store/century_vs_mill.htm but I am seriously considering a better machine.

I will ask for the manufactures website and see what comes up. Seems to be a good price after a little further searching but that may be reflected in quality.

I’m a wood machinist by trade and know what difference quality tooling can make especially on lighter machines so believe the same would be for milling metals.

Thanks again,
John

This one has positive rake and would probably work out cheaper.

http://www.nsertuk.com/website/viewProduct.shtml;jsessionid=40E994EAFF54F5808BBADC46E77FBF67?country=UK&item_type=product&type=merchandise&lang=en&tree_container_id=1&path=0_29&products_id=01147051

Insert price £4.11 each (not on Ebay) I cant buy a 16mm carbide end mill for that price. :D

http://www.nsertuk.com/website/viewProduct.shtml?country=UK&item_type=product&lang=en&type=merchandise&tree_container_id=1&path=0_24&products_id=01146561

John

Sounds like you got it nailed, John!

FWIW, I would see using that mill mostly to clean up edges when you don't want to flip them up and take a face mill to them or to cut L-shaped pieces from rectangular stock. I would not try to cut a slot with that big a cutter on your machine. Cut a much smaller slot and then work the edges individually.

You've got a fine mill there. Unless you just desperately want to move up, I'd work with it for a while. You'll learn a lot and build many a fine project.

Cheers,

BW

Sounds like you got it nailed, John!

FWIW, I would see using that mill mostly to clean up edges when you don't want to flip them up and take a face mill to them or to cut L-shaped pieces from rectangular stock. I would not try to cut a slot with that big a cutter on your machine. Cut a much smaller slot and then work the edges individually.

You've got a fine mill there. Unless you just desperately want to move up, I'd work with it for a while. You'll learn a lot and build many a fine project.

Cheers,

BW

Thanks Bob,

Defiantly will not be plunging with this end mill. :)

Unless I find anything better it will be the BAP300 or some one else has a better idea.

I’m in no rush to up grade just yet as I have a LOT to learn and it’s not long been CNC’d

John

Hi:
Dertsap, the point I was trying to make, was that indexable tooling is designed for production. Looking at that little mill, the HP available, and the DOC,SFM and FPT of the tool, it doesn't make sense to use that kind of tooling. I fully understand the logistics of using indexable tooling in a production environment, where you need to crank out x number of parts/hr in order to make a profit. At home, the required accuracy and intended end use tend to allow some relaxation in the "hurry up" attitude we take when we're earning our living. That's why I recommended HSS tools for small hobby mills.


cheers

regards

cam
im not sure if youve thought it all out
inserts have been around far longer than production machines (cnc)
insert endmills are designed as diplosibles and are far more cost effective which is a good thing for the home handyman , inserts are cheap and you get two corners to beat on . insert endmills are tougher than an average endmill which makes them superior on tough metal , if as you said in you previous post the average insert life is 15 minutes ,then what would be the life of a hss endmill or carbide at that ,i can assure you it would be far less
you can buy inserts for steel or aluminum

bottom line is you can throw two $5 inserts in the garbage or throw at the very least 2 endmills

Hi:
Dertsap, the point I was trying to make, was that indexable tooling is designed for production. Looking at that little mill, the HP available, and the DOC,SFM and FPT of the tool, it doesn't make sense to use that kind of tooling. I fully understand the logistics of using indexable tooling in a production environment, where you need to crank out x number of parts/hr in order to make a profit. At home, the required accuracy and intended end use tend to allow some relaxation in the "hurry up" attitude we take when we're earning our living. That's why I recommended HSS tools for small hobby mills.


cheers

regards

Cam1,

A quick question if I may; taking into account the specifications of my inferior machine, will running an indexable end mill give poor tool life compared with a HSS end mill and a poorer finish?

The reason I ask is that for the price of inserts I cannot buy a HSS tool. It makes no sense not to use indexable.:confused:

We would get about 15mins tip life cutting alloyed steels, then use another edge. Cutting aluminium, inserts can last for days or weeks before being changed, and thats in a heavy production environment!

Tool life is dependant on many factors, correct feeds and speeds, tool and setup rigidity, and correct cutter placement and direction to name a few.

one must look at the min required doc and feed for the chip break and ask yourself if the machine has the power and regidity that it would take. We use them all day long and love them and yet I have to agree that a standard end mill works great as well. Hum carbide vrs hss/cobalt each has its place and in that place it can out perform the other. So to say carbide only would be a losing battle. And todays coatings for end mills and inserts wow, and then we get to CBN they will out run carbide where they will work. And diamond coated inserts and tools are smoking too.

But each in its own place and time.

Oh check the corner radi, as a general you min DOC is = to the corner radi

Just my five cents worth I think that will cover the tax and the two cents

Oh check the corner radi, as a general you min DOC is = to the corner radi


Corner radi 0.8mm (0.0315") still looking for FPT and SFM :)

Thanks for your time,
John

Hi:
The SFM and FPT would be given by the insert manufacturer.
Let's just take a stab at it...
For mild steel a similar indexable cutter from korloy (apkt) could be run at around
750 SFM for that cutter (5/8") that would be around 4 X 750/.625=4800 RPM
if the FPT was .0015 then feed/rev = .003 inch (2 insert mill).
So taking .003 inch/rev X 4800 RPM = 15 inch/min.
I don't have the HP calculation handy, but I'm sure that given the volume of material ( dia of cutter, DOC * feedrate) that's being removed, and the type of material, the machinery handbook could be consulted to give HP.
Look, I'm not against this kind of tooling, it's just overkill for the type of machine you have. Consider a chipguard, to protect yourself from the hot chips a cutter like
this will throw. The other thing I noted with these cutters is that they prefer to be engaged in the material, by that I mean that is if you are just using it on the edge of the material, the inserts tend to hammer the edge of the workpiece, and degrade quicker. The other caveat is that you cannot sidemill with these cutters.
The one thing I like these cutters for is aluminum, they make great surface finish with low cutting forces.

hope I'm not aggrivating the production guys

cheers

Cam1,

A quick question if I may; taking into account the specifications of my inferior machine, will running an indexable end mill give poor tool life compared with a HSS end mill and a poorer finish?

The reason I ask is that for the price of inserts I cannot buy a HSS tool. It makes no sense not to use indexable.:confused:

It is possible you may get poor tool life simply because hobby machines often do not have the rigidity that carbide tools need; the tool may fail from chipping rather than cutting wear.

The finish can be okay but you may find you have to crank your speed up to its maximum and take a very shallow cut with a slow feed to avoid bogging down the motor.

Do some experimenting, it might cost a few quid but in the long run if you have established some baseline experience you will get better results.

The other thing I noted with these cutters is that they prefer to be engaged in the material, by that I mean that is if you are just using it on the edge of the material, the inserts tend to hammer the edge of the workpiece, and degrade quicker. The other caveat is that you cannot sidemill with these cutters.


It is possible you may get poor tool life simply because hobby machines often do not have the rigidity that carbide tools need; the tool may fail from chipping rather than cutting wear.

You certainly can’t beat the voice of experience and very valid points why this type of tooling would be a nono:nono:. So unless some one can jump in and say “been there, done that and it works fine for me” I will leave the indexable until I have my BP.

Thanks for jumping in you real world machinists your opinions are much appreciated and very informative. :cheers:

Would like to hear from any, if there is “been there, done that” guys.:)

Thanks,
John

it s too bad mitsubishi offers basically zero info online in reguards to their tools ,either way that is a heck of a deal

i agree that a machine with minimal hp may need to take lighter cuts but if you have been running solid carbides with no troubles then i can t see inserts fracturing prematurely , ive used the same type of tool under many different conditions and theyve prooven to be quite versitile

if you want to do some research then you may want to look at stellram , ive used their facemills with a grade designed for hard materials ,the insert was extremely sharp (enough to cut yourself) ,definitely as sharp as any solid endmill .
i'm not sure if they do but if they make a smaller tool with the same insert style you'd be rockin , those inserts would cut most anything you want with the same spindle load you would have from any solid endmill , i had absolutely forgetten about those tools till now , i think they are swiss made

Interestingly the Ebay listed end mill uses the same inserts as the BAP300. So I would get 10 inserts and the Ebay end mill for the price of just the inserts from the UK supplier.

Thanks dertsap and I will take a look at stellram.

John

Hi:
For home/hobby use indexable tools are a waste of money (in my opinion).
It's nice to have some indexable facemills for bigger jobs, but for C12L14 id just stick to HSS. The whole purpose behind indexable tooling is for production, where when last I checked the average life expectancy of an insert was 15 min of service.
I'm not trying to flame you, but indexable tools really are designed to "fly", and for the size of the mill described, I'd recommend sticking to HSS.

just my 2c cents

cheers

15min??? Dude what are you doing wrong, I got some indexible carbide cutting cast iron and I get 2 weeks out of them, Thats three shifts 5 days constantly,(Dry Cut Too) And on the aluminium I have some tools I change about ever three months for the same amount of time 3 shifts 5 days. If you use them right they will last a good long time. Man when I was in the job shops some of the forman there would **** can you if you got less that week out of a set of inserts.
For 32pounds I say go for it it is a great deal for a hobby guy

Bluesman

Bluesman: did you have a look at the size of the mill?
The cutting time I quoted was an industry average (albeit from a textbook), that gave the average life for indexable inserts. I agree that you can and will get way more life from a tool. The overall point I'm making is that this type of tooling is not appropriate for the size/HP of the machine. Yes, it will make chips, but the machine is totally underpowered and not rigid eneough for the selected cutter.

regards

it would be to say the same thing about my toy mini lathe at home , the thing is so under powered i can stop the chuck with my hands yet ive been cutting ss with an insert tool , and ive surprised myself as to how heavy of a (torture test) cut i can take with it even though it is under powered
i think he should be able to cut with it , hogging is definitely out

Bluesman: did you have a look at the size of the mill?
The cutting time I quoted was an industry average (albeit from a textbook), that gave the average life for indexable inserts. I agree that you can and will get way more life from a tool. The overall point I'm making is that this type of tooling is not appropriate for the size/HP of the machine. Yes, it will make chips, but the machine is totally underpowered and not rigid eneough for the selected cutter.

regards

Yup I saw and if he uses it correctly it will work just fine, Its 32 pounds for the cutter and what 8 inserts?. It is a good deal

Bluesman

Bluesman,

Thanks for joining in the discussion; I am all but convinces to buy one and see how she goes. I suppose “the proof of the pudding will be in the eating” as they say. :)

Cheers,
John

Hey Derstap or is it JimmyH?:
One question what does "sleeping doesn't come easy in an swv" mean

regards

Hey Derstap or is it JimmyH?:

regards

neither


straight white vest

a cooper fan would pick up on it

My first album ever was Love it to Death......

the best one ever

quote's from the ballad of dwight fry , love it to death

what can i saw i like my tunes

I'll dust off the vinyl. Think I like Eighteen the best.


see ya

You guys going on about Alice Cooper prompted me to do Google and the vist Wikipedia. He was the guy that murdered a chicken!!!! I remember reading about that in the newspapers. But that was in '69; are you encountering him in reruns, or are you really that old, or did you start listening to heavy metal when you were in diapers?

Ha Ha, I was 12 when I bought the album. It's a myth that he murdered a chicken, he's still being asked about it. Alice Cooper is acutually a pretty mild mannered guy (nowadays), and spends most of his time golfing. (maybee he's wacking the heads off of groundhogs)
and yes, I'm getting old....
cheers

did you start listening to heavy metal when you were in diapers?

pretty much


learned how to play alice cooper song "dead babies" at 4 yrs old , i'm sure my uncle who taught me was ready to make me a dead baby , i used to bug the crap out of him back then:bat:

the Coop's still rockin , pretty much a new LP/year