I hope this hasn't been beaten to death in a previous discussion, but I couldn't find anything recent...

I'm talking to the local HFO about a VF2 with 10K spindle, 16MB, Probe and IPS. The quoted price on the sales order was list price from the Haas site, less a $1,000 total discount.

I know that's not right, but I'm not sure what to expect. I would think that there would be at least a 5% discount ($1,000 is like 1.5%).

What is your experience?

Joe

Midwest HFO is offering discounts on options. I think 15% on $10,000 of options and up to 30% the more options you buy, don't know the exact numbers or if this is from the factory or HFO. And this discount applies only to the options, not the total machine price.

But this is not normal, they do offer different promotions at different times during the year, but usually the price on the website is what you pay, like a Saturn.

The most they normally discount is like $1500 or $2000 depending what you buy in my experience.

Wow, that really surprises me -- on a $50K machine with $10K of options I'd expect some kind of decent break.

Would it make you feel better if they told you it was a $60K machine and they gave you a $10K discount? :D

Seriously, their pricing is really straight-forward. Go to the Hardinge or Fadal websites. Come back and tell us what their competitive machine to the VF-2 lists for--seriously. Ya' ain't gonna' find anything. You're forced to get in touch with them, then try to sort out what it's going to cost.

I still don't know if I could have bought a Fadal or Bridgeport. From my own homework, I was able to sort through the maze of options on the Haas website and decide what was right for me.

With Haas, at least you can see the option prices and decide what you do and don't want. A decent sales guy will help you bundle things together to maximize your purchase power.

The only discounts are in the option 'packages' (just like getting a 'deluxe interior' instead of buying your car with individual: power windows and power seats).

Donkey Hotey has a point; sometimes deep discounts are a sign of insincere pricing I think. Years ago it was possible to get some machines very deeply discounted; show room models, units that had been on display at trade shows. Haas had a section on their website that used to have dozens of different machines at up to 30% discount...not any more, or not much now. I think it is a sign that they are succesful and secure and can sell what they can make.

Looking at the different MFGs websites, Haas is the best -- it's clear and to the point. Some, like Hurco, are pretty vague and mention that options are available but there is no list or guidance.

Mostly I don't want to overpay... If list on the machines is how the pricing always is, then so be it. I just have a hard time believing that there is zero wiggle room in the macine.

Having bought several Haas machines and seen invoices from Haas to the dealer I sometimes wonder whether pushing for a large discount, or working with a dealer that will give a large discount is really the best value for money in the long term. The reason I say this is that it seems the dealer's commission, discount, whatever you call it, is around 15%; i.e. for a $100,000 machine the dealer 'keeps' $15,000. Out of this $15,000 the dealer has to provide the labour cost for warranty service, Haas does supply warranty parts at no cost, any training and of course the machine installation. I know $15,000 seems like a fair anmount but the dealer has to keep the techs on staff even when they are not out fixing machines, etc. I do know that 15% as a discount/commission is not overly generous.

I am suspicious that if a dealer is willing to give a big discount; in other words proportionately reduce, or maybe take the entire amount, out of their income from the machine sale, maybe.....just maybe, they are going to be tempted to 'discount' the type of warranty support and service they offer.

You can't run a business on warm air and good intentions; good hard cash enters into the equation.

Hi Joe,

I purchased my machine during HAAS Demo Days last November and got a substantial :) discount on a TM-1P. If you send me a PM I will tell you more about it.

John

I was told the only reason for the big discounts at demo days last year was because of the poor turn out for the SEMA show and they needed to move some machine fast. I'm pretty sure normal demo day discount is $500.00. I also bought a machine last November and it was nice to save a little but they said this is not normal.

Let me suggest to you something that you may not have thought of...
First off, I ain't bashing Haas. I own two of them.
But...the whole priceing thing is marketing stuff...
You are in fact paying a premium for Haas to hold your hand and tell you what you "really" need. Just because Haas has a nice website, does not mean they make the best machine. To think so is somewhat silly.
Mori Seiki gives no prices on their site. It is in fact one of the worse sites I have ever seen but you can not deny that they make a nice machine.
Here's my point...
If you sit down an dthink through just what you want on a machine, you can do much better both in price and performance than a Haas. I ain't bashing Haas. But I don't drink the koolaid any more either.
I was going to buy a VF2. My local reseller pissed me off and I decided to find an alternative. I bought a box way machine with a Fanuc control, big coolant pump. fourth axis, high speed machining option, chip conveyer, not an auger. For about $15k less than the Haas. It will run circles around a VF2. I use it to cut 316L all day. My Haas would be just flappin it's skirts over that.
I also turn a bit of 316 and incolnel. I have an SL10 that will not cut the stuff. Won't do it. My Daewoo will.
I ain't bashin Haas. But I AM saying that there are other options out there where you can get more machine for less money. But you have to know what you want in a machine.
Seems lots of guys are new to machines that buy Haas. That fits in with the marketing thing.

PBMW,
I'm just curious. A new VF2 is $48,0000 and options you listed total $6000.00 and probably $3500.00 more for the 10,000 rpm spindle to match your Mori. So you really bought your new Mori for $42,500.00?? that's taking $15,000.00 off the Haas price.

No I don't have a Mori
I was stating that the mori site is abysmal...
Mori machines are nice.
I bought a Sharp 2412. Smaller than a VF2. MUCH stronger.
I can buy a Daewoo 3016 box machine with fourth and a Fanuc 18m control for about $60k. Chip conveyer, yada yada. That will out run a Haas as well.
My point.....is that there are a number of things that are a better value than a Haas. In both perfomance and price, and service.

.....My point.....is that there are a number of things that are a better value than a Haas. In both perfomance and price, and service.

Based on your account of your experiences, what I have read here on CNCzone and to some extent my experiences, I think you are correct.

But 8 years ago when I first got into buying Haas machines I do not think this analysis would have been correct: There were other machines more capable than Haas but when you took into account cost versus capability Haas was the best value in many cases. This is provided you were working with the tolerance region Haas machines can work in.

Then the competition responded by cutting their prices, and I think Haas got complacent with the result they have slipped in comparative terms. Which I find really annoying because I more or less locked myself into Haas machines; I could change but that might introduce more complications than it prevents.

Interesting, I appreciate everyone's input.

I'm looking around at other machines, another local dealer is pushing the Hurco VM2 as an alternative (more capacity in a smaller footprint, potentially more options/less cost).

You make a couple of good points Geof
I have a 2000 mini. It's a good machine.
I think there have been builders that are after the market share that Haas enjoys...
They're doing a pretty good job.
You can buy a 4020 Mori Dura for about a hunnert adn ten grand or so. Just about what you'd pay for a decked out VF3. The Mori will beat it up!
But it depends on what you are cutting day in and day out. I'm not an aluminum shop. I cut some pretty nasty stuff cause nobody else is dumb enough to take it on.
Rigidity is king as far as I'm concerned.

I've had to gather pricing several times in the past for equipment.
dealing some some manufacturers is like buying a car off a lot.
You can't hear the price until they give the sales pitch.
How much does the effing thing cost?
Whether or not you like Haas machines for their capabilty versus price, you have to admire straightforward pricing.

I agree, up front pricing means a lot as far as I'm concerned.
I would love to see the real cost of a Hurco VM2 and a Haas VF2 similarly equipped.
Everyone brags about the hurco control but my impression is that it is about 10 grand extra to get the full control package on a hurco.
The website just lists features/options. What's a feature and what's an option?

For me it isn't just about 'honest pricing'. If I can see what things cost up front, I might consider options that I had no idea I could afford. Haas benefitted from me buying more options on my VF-2 than I ever figured I could afford.

Or I can compare a lower priced model with fewer 'standard options' to a better equipped, higher-end model (VF-1 vs TM-1P for instance). It allows the consumer to make a better informed purchase.

Other manufacturers should follow that pricing model for that reason alone--even if they're in a totally different price-band than Haas.

For some unexplained reason I feel obligated to buy American made machines as much as possible. A while back when I was comparing Haas to other machines, I partially justified my reasons by going with the Haas probe package which can be had at a bargain price compared to other machine builders. I don't know if other builders has caught up on the probe integration/pricing.

Regarding Haas discount, it seems to depend on the market conditions. Just asking for discounts probably won't go very far, but if you do your homework comparing comparable machines you maybe able to do better. . . or you may end up with a different machine as had happened to several others on the forum. . .

Anyway, I like my Haas. Looking at it reminds me that despite the unfavorable manufacturing environment in the US, it's still possible for a US manufacturer to compete head to head with foreign manufacturers.

Anyway, I like my Haas. Looking at it reminds me that despite the unfavorable manufacturing environment in the US, it's still possible for a US manufacturer to compete head to head with foreign manufacturers.

Well said

Honestly, I'd strongly prefer to buy an American made machine. I really do appreciate the up-front pricing that Haas does.

We make all of our products in the US, and that means something to me. I don't like the idea of my job (or industry) going offshore.

I expect we'll end up with a Haas.

Go with Haas! Haas has an advantage over most CNC machine companies ... they are still a fairly new company .. compared to the Big Guys ..Mori ... Daewoo, etc. They are constantly getting better and have the determination. Proud to be an American company and see them doing well .. in Southern California. One day they''ll be just like Coke. When you want a soda .. you say Coke ... when you want a CNC machine ... you say Haas ...

080130-1815 EST USA

I believe we have received good value for the money we have spent on HAAS machines.

Does it make sense to beat a vendor down on price, reduce their investment in R&D, and get poorer quality, or pay a reasonable price and expect extremely good reliability?

All our machines are older and have had good reliability. Recently, including our last machine, the Z axis is counterbalanced by the servo. Previous units were nitrogen or mechanical weight. The servo method is probably a lower cost method, but I am not sure it is the better quality approach.

.

Go with Haas! <snip>



OK, I did :)

Really depends on what you are doing with the machine. If you cut aluminum all day. Every day. plus, minus .01, Dandy. Get into cutting difficult to machine materials, 316, Inconel, Nitronic 60, Hastaloy, and you get into problems. Those require more grunt. I know all about the faster lighter cut thing, I do it all the time onmy Haas.
I got a couple hundred 2 1/2 dia parts. 4140 at about 46 or so on the C scale. turn em to 2 1/4 and slip an inch and a quarter spade through it. My little SL10 was huffin and puffin. I didn't think I was that aggressive. I think I programmed it at about 1500 rpm and .01 per rev. Didn't much like it. But it cuts like crazy in alum...
So it really depends on what your bread and butter is.

Really depends on what you are doing with the machine. If you cut aluminum all day. Every day. plus, minus .01, Dandy.

Is plus minus .01 a typo or do you work in metric?

OK, I did :)


Nice. Now, if you don't mind, keep us in this forum up to date on your new purchase. Enjoy .. when it arrives

For Donkey, or anybody else who is interested

http://www.hardingequotes.com/


Since you guys are going back and forth about weather a Haas is a good value just because they give you upfront pricing.

Who cares, its only a phone call away, pick up the phone make a call, get a fax. If there is a problem getting a price, screw 'em.


As for the American machine, didn't a certain Gene HAAS get his passport revoked because they where afraid he was going to run to his extensive business contacts in CHINA? What are those contacts, probably the people making all the parts going into the AMERICAN machine.

Personally I would never buy a HAAS, I understand their value, I understand their place, but the person comparing a Mori to a HAAS, two totally different animals. The Mori is going to be way more than a HAAS, the Mori is still going to be making parts in 20 years, Why? it was built for a different purpose and a different audience.

Another reason I would never buy a Haas, the salesman doesn't bring beer, hes a nice guy, good conversation, but no beer, I may buy a Matsuura(sp?) from him someday, but not a Haas.

Our local Mazak place (200 miles away) they bring beer and lots of it, they also are the only "locals". The Haas comes out of Denver even though the salesman is in ABQ. The Mazak dealer also carries, Sharp, Clausing, Hyd-Mech(saws), Kent and a few others.

In this tiny little town, there are a couple of Haas's, one place loved it so much they bought a second one to help make up for all the down time(thats a sound business decision). Others have come to us(where I used to work) "can you do this on your 10yr old Mazak, our 2 year old Haas can't do it". I think a lot of that may have been tooling, setup/fixturing and technique(smarts), since I ran some of it on a beat up old Fadal.

If you guys that are so pro Haas want to see something cool, Mazak does an open house/private trade show every December in Kentucky. They subsidize it, I went 3 years ago, $125, this year was $350, but that was plane fair, hotel room, food, drink($$$$$$$$) transportation, the only thing I paid for was smokes. They wine you, they dine you, good food, free booze, our salesmen paid for bar time 'til close every night.

You will see some of the coolest stuff you have ever seen, you get complete free reign of their factory, you can talk to anybody you want, you can see how they test the machines, talk to the guys testing them. Its scary, its Mazaks making Mazaks,(a few cinci grinders), they are reproducing themselves. In their tech center, there are tooling vendors and the best of their best machines, almost all cutting, mostly steels, some stainless.

Even if you hate Mazak and love Haas, its worth it. You see some neat stuff, and come back refreshed and excited about machining, full of ideas. You also get to meet a lot of people from your area, (that is probably the best part). Its not stuff you will see in a local shop, and its fun.

Anyways, love your Haas's, if its what you need, then its perfect, there are a lot better values out there though. I think Sharp on their 2412 is a good value, Hurco is OK, Fryer has revamped their quality and is a good machine, Bridgeport/Hardinge. Kent makes two small enclosed VMCs that are a good value. There are a ton more. There is a ton more out there, cheaper and better.

Guys that are looking to spend 20k on a single tool unenclosed mill, look at Wells-Index, its a knee mill, but it is one rigid beefy bastard, 100% american made, even the castings, best people in the world to deal with. I've got one, 8 feet from me right now, running strong and very accurate, 1978, 30 years old, how many mini mills are going to be running in 2038?

I know service is important, and when I buy a new machine, I'll worry about it, but all I every heard about Haas was the service, the service is great, when it breaks they are here, "hows the Mazak service?", don't know, never needed it(90s iron, the good stuff).


Sorry about the long rant, I'm not knocking Haas too much, I think they advertise and get a lot of people to pay too much for what they need, if those people did their homework they could find a better machine for less money, though not advertised as much. Same with tooling, the big names that advertise more command higher prices, Hanita comes to mind, I can buy an endmill 30% off of the discounted Hanita price that will eat it alive. I don't care how much they advertise, I want performance and value, not name recognition.

No Geof, I don't work in metric. Not a typo. I know eight or ten Haas shops in Seattle. They run them hard and can do plus minus ten thou. That may be an operator issue. It may be a programming and quoting issue. But I've seen some of their work. (I farm stuff out to them) My little Haas mill dosn't get pushed that hard. I use it for a different sort of part. Smaller, steel and stainless, closer tolerances. But I'm not hogging with it. I know a guy with a late 90's VF3. Has trouble holding ten thou.
I dunno....Just what I see.
I like linear guides for interpolating holes. They ain't so good for hogging stainless.