All,

I thought I would start a new thread (vs the 2400 thread) to post some pictures of the DM4400, mostly of the electronics right now.

This post will be divided into three sections, each in it's own post:
Dyna Mechtronics Overview (this post)
4400 Specific Overview
4400 Electronics PicturesDyna Overview

All Dyna Myte machines were made in San Jose, California by a company called Dyna Mechtronics. They are still around, their website is at http://www.dynamechtronics.com/ and they still support these old machines as best they can. You can still buy manuals and schematics from them.

In the late 80's and early 90's, Dyna was a large provider of smaller CNC machines to all sorts of users, ranging from the small desktop machines (the 2400 and the 2800) to their top of the line 4400 small VMCs. The smaller machines were quite popular and sold in their thousands. They also had a line of CNC lathes, the DM3000 and variants.

One drawback, however, was that Dyna used it's own controls with it's own language (similar to G-code, but not the same). The reason for this was that the machines were designed to be used largely conversationally and the technology of the day was quite limiting (e.g. controller speed in 1987...), so they developed their own series of controllers, SKIP (Single Key Input Programming) which simplified the task of conversational programming. The machines do have RS232 inputs that can be used to upload upto 1000 lines of programming (smaller in the 2400/2800) and can be drip fed using the appropriate software for the PC. When these machines were new, Dyna also sold a sophisticated CAM package as well (no longer available, AFAIK). Using modern CAM tools and appropriate post processors, it is still possible to generate code for the SKIP series of controllers. There are posts available for BobCAM and MasterCAM 9 & 10 and you can used a variety of RS232 utilities to upload the code.

One interesting thing about Dyna machines is that they were all built in a modular fashion from relatively off-the-shelf parts. Their architecture and electronics are fairly open, with all systems, including the 4400, using step-dir style controllers for the axis motors. All the machines use stepper systems with feedback encoders for position monitoring. The steppers are relatively small and are geared (5 to 1 in the case of the 4400) using either plastic gears or belts.

Uniquely for such small machines, they used 30-taper spindles on the 2800 and 4000/4400 series, which provides nice, rigid tooling. The bases were all of cast iron, made in Taiwan. The 2800/4000/4400 machines used ballscrews with dovetail ways, while the 2400 had ACME screws with dovetail was. All systems had one-shot lubrication, automated on larger machines. All the systems were designed from the ground up to be bed-style CNC machines and were never derived from mill-drill style designs. The 2400/2800 series also has a relatively high speed spindle (10k rpms), which is an advantage when dealing with small tooling.

As CNC became more widespread, Dyna changed it's product line. The 2400 was discontinued in the early '90s and controls on the 4000/4400 line switched to more common Mitsubishi G-code (Meldas) in the mid-'90s. AHHA made a conversion kit for most Dyna machines, but it has since gone out of business. Their major value add was a bridge board between existing Dyna electronics and newer control systems, but this is no longer available. A number of people have retrofitted EMC, FlashCut, DeskCNC and Mach3 mostly to 2400/2800 series machines.

Overall, Dyna machines are great candidates for conversions as they are well built, have electronics which can potentially be re-used and were made in fairly large numbers. They are also small enough for the hobbyist to handle while still providing industrial-style tooling, particularly the 2800.

In the late '80s, these machines were nothing short of revolutionary, even if they were expensive and quirky. Given all of the mill/drill conversions currently being done, particularly around Sieg products, there is a growing market for small CNC systems pioneered by Dyna 20 years ago.

Here are some scans of Dyna brochures from back in the day. I only have the 4400 brochures, but you can see the other machines on the last scan.

Also, some threads that might be of interest:

Dyna 2400 Conversion (lots of good info, inspired this thread)
http://www.cnczone.com/forums/showthread.php?t=33770

Yahoo Dyna Group
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Dyna_Mechtronics_Users/

4400 Specific -
http://www.cnczone.com/forums/showthread.php?t=7651
http://www.cnczone.com/forums/showthread.php?t=11256

Post Processor Info for 4400
http://www.cnczone.com/forums/showthread.php?t=7866

4400 with Mitsubishi Meldas control
http://www.cnczone.com/forums/showthread.php?t=14443

2400 Conversion pictures
http://www.grifftek.com/images/dyna2400remec/

DM3000
http://www.cnczone.com/forums/showthread.php?t=7502

Mach3 Forum discussions on Dyna conversions
http://www.machsupport.com/forum/index.php/topic,630.0.html
http://www.machsupport.com/forum/index.php/topic,3557.0.html
http://www.machsupport.com/forum/index.php/topic,5233.0.html
http://www.machsupport.com/forum/index.php/topic,4092.0.html
http://www.machsupport.com/forum/index.php/topic,3134.0.html

2800 Clone
http://www.minitechcnc.com/vmc10/vmc10_cnc_machining_center.htm

(note: I have better scans - I need to re-upload the images)

Excellent info. I worked for Dyna from '95-'98. At that time, the Mitsubishi Meldas controls (M3 & M520) were being phased out and replaced with Dyna's PC based control. With the Mits and PC controls, Dyna was aiming for the bigger machine market with the largest mill being 43" x 22" travel 40 taper 15hp 16,000lb VMC.

The SKIP control was designed by Sandy Walker at Dyna. It was originally intended for the small benchtop machines Dyna sold. Over time, the SKIP control got adapted to bigger more powerful machines like the 4000/4400. The PC3 control that Dyna eventally released was also originally designed by Sandy. Unfortunately, Sandy passed away while the PC3 was under development and before it was released. The PC3 control is, to a great extent, a SKIP control with servos instead of steppers and a PC for the user interface instead of the proprietary console used on the SKIP controls. Because it was PC based, it used conventional G & M codes, had a hard drive and floppy drive, and color LCD screen. Also unfortunately, Dyna started selling the PC3 machines too soon before all the bugs were sorted and alienated their customers and dealers.

For reference, see attached pictures of my Dyna 4400s with the Mitsubishi M3 controls. These are mechanically the same as the SKIP controlled machines but take advantage of the (at the time) more modern Meldas control with higher rapids (400ipm vs. 100ipm) higher spindle speed (10K rpm vs 7K rpm), rigid tapping, more memory (32KB), and standard G & M codes.

As far as I know, the ballscrews, spindle, ATC, and basic iron are identical between the Mitsubishi controlled machine and the SKIP controlled machine. This reinforces the statement that the early machines are good candidates for retrofits.

Cool! I've never actually seen one with an enclosure. Could you take a couple of more pictures of the enclosure (particularly how it interfaces with the base column) so that I can build one of those?

In post #2, I'm going to post pictures of my 'naked' machine. It's probably not possible, but, if you ever get a chance, I'd love to see what your electronics look like. Does the Meldas control run steppers or servos? 400 ipm, huh? I guess that's what I should shoot for as well.

A little later in this thread, I'm going to post detailed pictures of my current electronics, it'll be interesting to know if those are the same as the ones used on the Meldas machines.

Thx. for the great pictures, my are not as good, might have to re-shoot them... Esp. now that I've cleaned the thing.

Chris.

Some of the SKIP control 4400s had the same full enclosures as my M3 machines. Other SKIP 4400s had the smaller "table" guards as shown in your brochure scans. I cannot remember if it was an optional enclosure or something that was added to later built machines. I have seen at least three SKIP 4400s here in the Phoenix, AZ area that had the full enclosures and two that had the table guards.

I will try to take specific pictures of how the enclosure attaches to the base along with the electronics in the back cabinet.

The M3 uses servos and 5mm pitch ballscrews.

The DM4400 is one of the smallest mills you can get with a toolchanger. Although the 2800 is much smaller (it is a benchtop mill), the 4400 is a full size mill, much like a Bridgeport, but significantly stiffer as it is a bed mill, not a knee mill. As stated in a previous post, it was specifically designed for CNC.

Mechanical Details

The DM4400 is cast from Meehanite cast iron in six main sections:
Base
Bed
Column
Head
Y-axis Saddle
TableAltogether, the mill weighs 4200lbs, and as much as 4600lbs when fully loaded (stock, tooling, coolant). It has hand scraped hardened dovetail ways with Turcite female surfaces. All ways have wipers, way covers, and the axis are driven by pre-loaded ball screws which are also covered. Both dovetails and ball screws are lubricated through a one-shot auto lube system. According to Dyna, the specs are as follows:
Table Size: 28.7" x 10"
X Travel: 14"
Y Travel: 10"
Z Travel: 14"
Min. Distance from Spindle to Table: 6.5"
Maximum table load: 300lbs
Floor Area: 65" x 65"
Height: 90"The spindle is a 30 taper design which can accommodate either CAT30 or BT30 tooling. It has a power drawbar system with a air flush system and a tool changer which holds upto 10 tools.

Electrical Details

The DM4400 has a 4.5hp (6hp max) bi-directional spindle motor driven by a Servo Dynamics PWM amplifier (model 3030) capable of 30A @ 160v. It senses motor performance via a tachometer mounted on the spindle motor. In addition, the spindle motor is equipped with a brake. The spindle is belt drive, with two possible positions, 0-2400 RPM and 0-6500 RPM. The spindle motor has levers to loosen it, but it's not really designed to be done often.

All axis are driven by stepper motors with feedback encoders for closed loop control. The steppers are PMI/Kollmorgen SyncroSteps, their specs are:

X,Y & Z Axis
200 steps/rev
140 oz. in.
125 watts
Parallel: .13 Ohms 4.6 A
Series: .52 Ohms 2.3 A
Shaft: .375" x 1"
Size: NEMA34
Overall Length: 3.25"
(note: motor enclosure has a fan with a 3" dia. hole in enclosure)The encoder is an HP HEDS-6310, specs are:
Dual channel
TTL 1000 count with Index
Input 5 VDCThe stepper drivers are from Dyna and are apparently step/dir style drives (see photos below). They feed 48v to the steppers, which are then geared via a tooth drive 5:1 to the ballscrew.

The electrical system is feed by a large isolation transformer which requires at least 220v 3-phase. It can by be fed by a Wye/stinger configuration (with a 208v high leg). There are several other transformers in the cabinet, one for the steppers (48v output), one for the electronics (12v & 5v) and a secondary isolation transformer (which feeds the table light, among other things). There are also two timers, one for the e-stop system, another for the auto lube.

The DM4400 was designed to have a number of auxiliary systems:
Probe
Coolant
Rotary Axis (one or more)
Manual Pulse Generator (MPG/pulser)The probe was plugged into the a socket in the side of the machine. It was used for tool length measurement as well as stock location.

The coolant system consists of a separate unit at the front of the machine. It is plugged into an outlet controlled by a relay. There are 6 other outlets to control other systems as needed.

The rotary axes are plugged into circular-style waterproof connectors also on the side of the cabinet. These necessitated additional cards in the cabinet to drive the rotary axes.

The MPG (or pulser) was a hand held system for moving axes. It plugged into the bottom of the console.

Tool Changer

The tool changer is a pretty complicated affair by hobbyist mill standards. It has bi-directional rotary carousel controlled by a stepper and a swing arm controlled by a DC motor. The controller sees it as two new axes, A and C. I'm not entirely sure which is which yet, but, basically, the tool change sequence is as follows:
Z-axis moves to tool change position (88 mm, apparently)
Carousel stepper moves to the correct (empty) tool slot
DC arm motor fires up and moves until the limit switch at the top of the arm contacts the spindle casting
Power drawbar releases the tool
Z-axis moves up to release the tool
Carousel moves to the new tool
Z-axis moves down onto tool
Drawbar clamps tool
DC arm motor reverses until hall sensor on column tripsAll these movements are controlled by boards in the cabinet. Two of the boards handle the carousel stepper and limit switches, while another board turns and reverses the DC motor (at least, that's what I think).

Controller

The controller is a proprietary system which has the following features:
Tool compensation
Backlash compensation
Pitch error compensation
3-axis circular interpolation
Programmable spindle
Rigid taping
Polar and Cartesian coordinatesAs stated above, it was designed at a time when computing systems were rather slow, so it's rather primitive. It also uses it's own language, not G-code. While it has two RS232 ports, there are only 999 lines of memory, so one would have to drip feed it for anything larger. One interesting feature was that the controller can be removed from the console for programming at your desk.

Performance

So what can it do? Well, according to Dyna, these were the machine specs when new:

Rapid traverse: 100 ipm
Cutting feed rate: 80 ipm max
Resolution: 0.0001"
Position accuracy: 0.0005" total
Position repeatability: +/- 0.00015"
Boring roundness: 0.0002"
Boring cylindricity: 0.0004"/4" dia
Manual jog: 0.0005" (0.01mm)

That's about it. More in the brochures from the first post. A bunch of pictures below. Mouse over for what it is. Next up, how to fix various broken things on your DM4400 (tracing and fixing wiring, fixing your spindle amp and fixing your hall sensor, plus whatever else I find is broken...), followed by retrofitting the DM4400 with Mach3.

The M3 uses servos and 5mm pitch ballscrews.

You wouldn't happen to know what the specs on those servos would be? I'm particularly interested in the speed and torque that were used. This would be useful in narrowing which servos I might choose for the retrofit.

Right now, I'm looking at Keling's NEMA 34 series (http://www.kelinginc.net/ServoMotor.html), but they come in 600, 850 and 1125 oz.in. versions. I think the 600 oz.in. may be enough (esp. with 5:1 gearing), but I'd like to know what the factory used to get 400 ipm :)

I think I may be able to mount them straight onto the original mounting structure by boring out the coupling on the original motor and leaving of the cover...

Thx.

Chris.

My M3 machines have Mitsubishi HA40CS servos on the X & Y and HA80CS on the Z. No idea on the specs but someone at Mitsubishi should be able to help. I believe the HA80CS on the Z is a "high torque" servo to deal with the Z's higher mass of head & counterweight.

Caprirs: quick question. Did your machines come those colors or where they painted? And if they were painted, how and with what?

BTW, did find the HA40CS here:

http://www.meau.com/eprise/main/sites/public/SERVICE_AND_SUPPORT/TSS_Parts_Catalog/-Part_Detail?matnrid={465F47AB-3423-48AF-9B80-7AB7C3EAE656}

and the HA80CS here:

http://www.meau.com/eprise/main/sites/public/SERVICE_AND_SUPPORT/TSS_Parts_Catalog/-Part_Detail?matnrid={DBEFE200-0342-4ACB-BC33-DA797A7DE778}

The specs of these motors are as follows:

HA40CS
Rated Torque
30.0 kg/cm at stall (2687 oz.in.)
27.2 kg/cm at 1000 RPM
24.4 kg/cm at 2000 RPM
Max. RPM 2000
Weight 8 kg

HA80CS
Rated Torque
60.0 kg/cm at stall (5375 oz.in.)
54.4 kg/cm at 1000 RPM
48.7 kg/cm at 2000 RPM
Max. RPM 2000
Weight 12kg

Attached is the spec PDF.

Damn, those are some powerful motors. Much, much more than the 140 oz. in. steppers on the SKIP-based 4400.

As a side note, I removed the Z-axis stepper today to have a good look at it. After I had taken it off, I freaked out as I suddenly realized that the head was now totally unsupported and I had just taken off the stepper... I remembered hearing that ball screws could be back driven and feared the head would coming crashing down. After running around the shop looking for appropriate wood, I secured the head and tried to see if it would move. Nothing, nothing at all, it would not budge. I didn't push hard, not wanting to tempt fate....

This little adventure, however, leads me to believe that a Z-axis brake is perhaps not necessary. I had been doing some research into this, but it seems that the combination of dovetail ways and a counterweight may be enough to hold up the head. For safety sake, I probably really should have a brake, it's just that I haven't found a suitable solution yet.

The fact that the factory servo comes without a brake also suggests this is an acceptable solution....

[since I can't edit a post that's only 3 days old, here's a new post with new scans]

Updated brochure scans

I'm now wondering if the factory servos on the 4400M are actually geared differently than the steppers on the older 4400C.

If I look at DC servos commonly available and in the same weight range as the AC units from Mitsubishi, they are around 600 and 1100 oz.in. respectively. Geared 5:1, they would be roughly the same power as the AC servos on the 4400M....

No gears on the Mits machines. Direct coupled to the ballscrews.

The head likely will not drop with the 5mm pitch ballscrew. On machines with a 10mm pitch ballscrew, the heads can creep down when the power is switched off which generally indicates the gibs need to be snugged up. There is typically enough friction in the dovetail (when properly adjusted) to prevent the head from dropping so there is no servo brake on the Z axis of my machines.

Those colors on my machines are the ones used on all Dyna Mitsubishi machines: 4400, 4500, 4800, 3300 (lathe). There are numerous layers of primers underneath. As the coolant and chips have taken their toll over the years, there are areas where huge chunks of paint are flaking off.

Is the 4400/4000 a vertical knee mill or vertical bed mill. Just a little confused by location of thread. Nice pics though.

It's a bed mill, see the brochures above. Pict no2 clearly shows this. I posted here as there are other Dyna threads here and I was not sure where else it would go since all Dyna's are bed mills...

Chris.

I'm ckm's buddy at "the shop"....it's a KILLER machine, just the fact of getting a fun thing to get'it going will be so much fun. ckm is a total brainniac....so doing the cnc upgrades will be great.....peace!!!!

Well, I had been hoping to post that my Servo Dynamics SD-3030 spindle drive was fixed, but it's not quite yet. I repaired a bunch of burned out wiring in the power supply. It turns out that the OEM put wire ties every 1/2 inch on all the wires. Great, but over what I guess are power resistors, the ties were so tight that when the wire insulation got brittle due to the heat, the ties just wore through.

The net effect of this was that the fan stopped working, causing further wiring failure. I replaced everything with automotive grade wiring, which solved some of the spindle problems (e.g. now the spindle turns on initialization). However, I was still having an error during initialization. The spindle would spin up, then the drive would error out with an over-voltage error. Careful examination of the 6 rectifier diodes revealed one with clear burn marks. It was replaced.

I thought this would be the end of it, but the drive still errors out at initialization with the same behavior (spins up for 10 seconds, then errors with overvoltage). Resetting the drive produces a large buzzing sound from what appears to be the power supply. I suspect that more of the rectifier diodes are bad, but am not sure. The DC drive voltage reads 80v and I haven't had time to check the bus voltage coming from the power supply yet.

The manual stats that the error led is as follows:

Voltage - This LED will give an indication for these conditions:

1) Bus voltage has exceeded 195 VDC, this condition can exist if:
a) The shunt regulator fuses are blown
b) A regulator is required to handle regenerative motor
energy, while decelerating, due to excessively high
inertia.

2) The sum of the +/- 15 Volt Bias supply is less than 28 Volts
DC. This condition can exist if a line transient causes
the bias supply to dip momentarily or the bias supply has
failed. Check bias supply fuse.I checked the shut regulator fuses, and they are OK, and there is a regulator. Also, since the noise on reset exists at dead stop, it would seem that the problem is elsewhere.... I also checked the bias supply fuse and the voltage sum. Both seem OK.

The power supply seems pretty simple. It's basically six rectifier diodes that rectify the incoming 3-phase AC into DC, then pass it to a large filter capacitor. There is also circuitry for shunt regulator which feeds three large resistors. I don't know enough about power drives to understand the whole thing, but it seems that the only two places that could generate overvoltage would be either the cap or the rectifier diodes. I suppose the switching MOSFETs on the shunt regulator could also be bad, but this would not explain the buzzing on reset.... Or it could be wired to the wrong ends on the transformer (hmmm, should check that first...). My next step is to test the power supply more thoroughly, starting with the rest of the diodes and the capacitor.

The other possibility is the power output stage of the amp, which is a bunch of MOSFETs driven in PWM fashion at 2Khz. One interesting thing was that when I disconnected the control and tach inputs, then started the machine, the drive went into run-away mode, something I did not expect. I thought that enable and signal were necessary at least for the thing to run. This may or may not indicate a problem with the amp itself. I'm going to take the heatsink off the MOSFETs to see if I can divine anything from their looks...

Regardless, I've been trolling ebay and the 'net to find a reasonably cheap replacement. If anyone knows of a 150-180v 6HP (~30-40A) DC motor controller with integrated power supply for a reasonable price, please tell me. I do have an AMC controller of the right size coming, but no power supply... In the meantime, I'm continuing to troubleshoot the amp as best I can. I have an o-scope and various other electronics testing tools, as well as the manual for the amp, but I don't know an enormous amount about these things, so it's slow going.

In other news, I designed and had made some breakout boards to convert the existing control system to Mach3. They arrived today. I now have most everything I need for a conversion, so I'm going to start on that next week.

If anyone has ever worked on a Servo Dynamics drive and has some pointers, I'd be grateful if you'd be willing to share your wisdom.

Thx.

Chris.

I have a 4400M and I really like what I read about the retrofitting. But, just so I understand, there is no way to retro with the AC servo drives....right?

I have a 4400M and I really like what I read about the retrofitting. But, just so I understand, there is no way to retro with the AC servo drives....right?

I don't know for sure, having never seen a 4400M. Theoretically, it is possible, but you have to figure out what signal the controller sends to the amplifier/servo drive. If it's a step/dir style signal, that's not that hard to retrofit. If it's a +/-10v signal (likely), then it's harder, particularly since the one place that was selling step/dir to +/-10v converters has stopped doing so. There may be others, but I don't know who they are.... Most of the upgrade paths people discuss on CNCzone involve controllers that speak step/dir rather than +/-10v and it seems that industry is moving towards step/dir even for servos, so you need amplifiers/drives that speak step/dir.

In extremis, you could replace the servo drives all together with drives from Granite Devices (http://www.granitedevices.fi/ about $250 ea) that should drive your AC motors, but that would push up the cost a bit.

It's definitely doable, but you may have to replace way more parts that in a 4400C which uses step/dir.

HTH,

Chris.

Do you know of anyone who has done this with the Granite Devices drives?

I was thinking of going with Mach3. All I would need is 3 new drives from Granite Devices and a breakout board. I still should be able to use the power supply from the mill itself as well as all the other existing basic controls. (Limit switches, coolent pumping system, oiling system, for example). I would strip out the tool changer. I think I would also have to replace the spindle motor and control unless there is some way to replace the just the control with something that would work with the motor. Maybe I could get the whole thing done for $1000 to $1500??

Do you know of anyone who has done this with the Granite Devices drives?

I was thinking of going with Mach3. All I would need is 3 new drives from Granite Devices and a breakout board. I still should be able to use the power supply from the mill itself as well as all the other existing basic controls. (Limit switches, coolent pumping system, oiling system, for example). I would strip out the tool changer. I think I would also have to replace the spindle motor and control unless there is some way to replace the just the control with something that would work with the motor. Maybe I could get the whole thing done for $1000 to $1500??

I don't know anyone that has used the Granite Devices drives, sorry. But the fact that it was basically developed on CNCzone is encouraging. You might be able to get them to send you a single unit to see if it will work with your motors.

I would leave the tool changer in. By using the new 'brains' feature of Mach3 and a modbus controller, you can get it working. If it's like mine, it's just a motor with two switches controlling the swing and a stepper rotating the tools (it's treated as the A-axis and has a step/dir interface). There is a hall sensor under the forward pulley, on the right side of the mill, it tells the control what position the spindle is in and acts as a tach as well. The only really complicated thing about this whole setup is moving the tool carousel the appropriate amount, but that's really just trial and error. For me, the tool changer is one of the main values of the machine, actually.

Speaking of modbus, that's what I am going to use to control all the peripherals, like coolant. I'm using CNC4PC's modbus with an expansion board, giving me 32 I/O ports for controlling things like relays and the 4400C has a relay board from Opto with upto 12 relays. The oiling system is completely independent and just runs of a power source (not sure what kind).

As far as the spindle goes, mine is controlled by a +/-10v signal, which any number of boards can generate. It uses an amp (which is currently broken) made by Servo Dynamics and is controlled by a sub-board from Dyna (which will be removed). I'm using a Homman Designs Digispeed XL, but CNC4PC makes a breakout board that can generate that signal as well. Be aware that the spindle has a brake, so you'll have to get that working as well (Homman's board has a provision for that). Of course, you could replace the whole thing with an AC motor and VFD, which is the modern way to drive a spindle, but that will easily add another $1000 onto the conversion, and there is no reason to do so unless the existing motor does not work.

Another thing is that the 4400C has two problems with limit switches. The first is that they are normally open, which is dangerous (if they fail, the controller will never know, BTDT), the second is that they are single ended, eg. there is a limit switch only on one end. I'm replacing mine with two limit switches on each axis, with one end having soft make/break switches, which can act as home and limit at the same time.

If you post some pictures of your control cabinet electronics, I might be able to give you some more pointers. If you are careful and plan things out, you can reuse much of the wiring. I've designed a bunch of bridge circuit boards to help with this task, it makes things a lot easier.

I'm still trying to reverse engineer the e-stop circuit, that's my last barrier to finally starting the conversion. That, and I need to fix my spindle amp... I also designed a whole new console panel to better accommodate Mach3 and had figured out how to use the existing console wiring to provide a backhaul to the controls.

I'll post some pictures of all this stuff a little later.

BTW, if you do decide to replace the motor and spindle driver, let me know, I might be interested in them.

Chris.

Do you have access to the electrical specs & encoder details for the HA40CS and the HA80CS? I contacted Granite Devices on another thread concerning the compatibility question.

Thanks

Do you have access to the electrical specs & encoder details for the HA40CS and the HA80CS? I contacted Granite Devices on another thread concerning the compatibility question.

Thanks

Did you look at the specs I posted upthread? That's what I have as I have never seen a 4400M. If you take a picture of the nameplate, that would be helpful. You can also contact Mitsubishi, they are quite responsive. The encoders are pretty easy to replace if they turn out to be a problem (it's just more money...).

Chris.

BTW, if the 4400M uses drives that take a +/- 10vdc signal, you might be able to re-use them with this board: http://www.cnc4pc.com/Store/osc/product_info.php?cPath=25&products_id=58

I would check with Arturo (the owner of CNC4PC) to make sure it will work, but that would be the easiest/cheapest conversion....

Chris.

" BTW, if the 4400M uses drives that take a +/- 10vdc signal, you might be able to re-use them with this board: http://www.cnc4pc.com/Store/osc/prod...products_id=58 (http://www.cnc4pc.com/Store/osc/product_info.php?cPath=25&products_id=58)"

Reading CNC4PC product description would suggest that this would not work for amp/drives requiring a +/- 10 V DAC command signal. It does look/read to be well suited to convert a step/direction (PWM) signal to run a common 0-10V input to a VFD/VSD for a spindle. It appears the step (PWM) is converted for 0-10 V speed signal and the step (bit) signal is used for CW/CCW rotation signal. Amps/drives using the +/- 10V DAC signal get direction from the sign, and magnitude from the voltage level.

Maybe someone here might want to volunteer to try out Dynomotion boards to share there experience with the rest of us. Looks like their KMotion card can handle +/- 10V drives. (price wise, I wished the Skyko Pixies would have survived, but obviously the Dynomotion is a full feature motion controller.)


Mach3 Plugin
http://www.dynomotion.com/Help/Mach3Plugin/Mach3PlusKFlop.PNG
KMotion/KFlop Mach3

" BTW, if the 4400M
Maybe someone here might want to volunteer to try out Dynomotion boards to share there experience with the rest of us. Looks like their KMotion card can handle +/- 10V drives. (price wise, I wished the Skyko Pixies would have survived, but obviously the Dynomotion is a full feature motion controller.)


Mach3 Plugin
http://www.dynomotion.com/Help/Mach3Plugin/Mach3PlusKFlop.PNG
KMotion/KFlop Mach3


I have a few emails from the KMotion guys. Their cards are well suited to analog drives and they have a plugin for Mach3. My thoughts were that the KMoition would be a great replacement of multiple Pixie controllers until I found their two main limitations. The first is the cards do not support threading/tapping... yet. The second and more importantly they are limited to approximately 500 blocks/sec.
Possible a third limitation maybe that you cannot use more then one board per PC.

Trevor

"The second and more importantly they are limited to approximately 500 blocks/sec."

By "they" are you referring to both the kmotion board and the newer kflop, or just the kmotion board?

Just wanted to add that I spoke with the fellow regarding the dynomotion boards and I think there may have been a misunderstanding somewhere because according to him they are not limited to 500 blocks/sec in any way.

I agreed to do some testing on the Kflop board w/ both my lathe and mill so I will try to post results once I get rolling on them. I'll be using steppers on the lathe and brushed servos w/ the SnapAmp on the mill.

Hey fellas

I have been working with this guy at the local Jr. college trying to get a 4400 running. So far we tied Mach into the existing AHHA drives. So the x y and Z are moving just fine through Mach. Our recent stumbling block has been trying to get Mach to drive to spindle. This is what we've done.

To unlock the brake on the spindle we cut the end off an extension cord and wired to the harness on top of the motor, and plugged it in...it seemed to unlock the brake just fine.

To get the spindle to turn we hooked up a -15/+15 VDC adjustable power supply, from the old electronics lab, to the servo dynamics pwm, and seemed to have some luck there. We had the spindle moving a different speeds according to the voltage that we supplied to it. We had a volt meter hooked to it, and I don't think we went over 10VDC.

But what we really want is a way to control the spindle through the parallel port from Mach.

Is this the same question you are all dealing with, or I am just opening a new can o' worms

thanks

woodturn,

sounds as your 4400 has already undergone some changes from stock, AHHA drives. Look at CKM post #5 for pics of the DYNA proprietary drives, later in their lifespan they were fitted with Mitsubishi Meldas control hardware.

If you do still have the the Dyna spindle drive, you might read CKM's experience upthread.

If you have had good luck with your experiment of sending a standard 0-10 Vdc setpoint signal to the drive, the Mach end should be no problem. CNC4PC sales a couple hardware options, including a step/dir converter to 0-10 Vdc (as was mentioned and linked upthread). I believe Homann Designs makes some converters as well, and am certain others too.

123cnc,

I am NOT the expert on this project, but I was told by someone who knows a fair deal about this stuff that those cards will not work because we need a -10VDC to a +10Vdc power supply so the spindle will go CW and CCW, and I think those cards only only provide the spindle with a +10VDC which would make them go CW. Let me know if I am wrong.

I am fairly sure that our spindle drive is the original, but I will check. I do know that it is a servo dynamic drive.

Thanks and good luck

Sounds like you do still have the Dyna supplied Servo Dynamics spindle control, as afore mentioned by CKM. While AHHA was still around, there were quite a few 4400M users who went that route, as has been mentioned in other threads on this forum. Your experiment mentioned success with 0-10 V, I now read this as in one direction only. If you need the full +/- 15 V, you'll have to keep looking. If you could work with +/- 10V, you could still use one of the mentioned converters and a pair of relays to swap the +/- output for direction control. Although not eloquent, should work. Your dir output from Mach could fire the right relay.

123cnc,

So with this pwm should you run + or - 15VDC or + or - 10VDC?

With the above mentioned card, do you feed it a 12VDC signal, then it spits out whatever voltage you need to run the spindle a given speed, limited to 10VDC?

Also

Withe this card can you run the spindle CW and CCW?

Thanks

The converters that take step/dir to send 0-10V control signal (CV) are designed for the more common AC VFD/VSDs that can use their own 10Vdc source across a potentiometer or an external 0-10 Vdc analog command. Typically the direction is just a pair of fwd/rev contacts to the drives common.

Since your application, the Servo Dynamics DC controller, is expecting a sign-magnitude signal +/-, I was suggesting making the 0 to +10Vdc work as +/- 10 by switching the output sign via post-board relays (or perhaps a little more eloquent a 4-pole relay). The relay would get its control signal from the Mach Dir output for direction (CW/CCW) and via the converter to your switching relay(s). The Mach step signal is converted to the analog voltage signal (e.g. take a look at CNC4PC C6 card http://cnc4pc.com/Tech_Docs/C6R5_WG.pdf) The board requires a 12 Vdc power supply, and its onboard pot may let you sneak close to the full 12V range.

If trying to employ this method, it would be best to ensure the output transitioned down to 0 and up to setpoint rather than a rapid flip/flop at full speed. You may be able to make some change in Mach to ensure this or via Gcode to always set speed to 0 before a change in direction. Of course this all gets a little tricky if you hope to do rigid tapping or anything requiring rapid spindle direction change. In theory, you should be able to set the MACH control of the step/dir drive (converter) to limit the input to 25kHz and accel/decel curve to eliminate any concern. I believe within Mach that (someone else may want to pipe in to confirm or deny) the spindle control and associated M&S commands will be mapped to this assigned step/dir spindle output.

I know this somewhat contradicts my earlier upthread post on using this for servo drives, but other than tapping I tend to think the spindle would be far less demanding than an axis drive performing interpolated and arc/circular moves. Maybe with fast solid state relays (anyone like to comment)?? Of course the mentioned example, CNC4PC C6, has an input limit of 25kHZ, limiting its use for axis drives.

P.S. Just thoughts, experiment/analyze for your setup/application.

Just wanted to add that I spoke with the fellow regarding the dynomotion boards and I think there may have been a misunderstanding somewhere because according to him they are not limited to 500 blocks/sec in any way.

I agreed to do some testing on the Kflop board w/ both my lathe and mill so I will try to post results once I get rolling on them. I'll be using steppers on the lathe and brushed servos w/ the SnapAmp on the mill.



You might want to check with Tom at Dynamotion about this. I have given him an example file to check the blocks/sec capacity of the KFlop/KMotion plugin.
Besides, 500 blocks/sec will only slow you down when you are machining a mold or die that has short line segments. I think even a Haas controller has a limit of 1000 blocks/sec processing speed, and we all know those machines can really move.:)

Trevor

Protman/Trevor,

Thanks for the updates. I'm anxious to hear your results and sure I'm not alone.

And thanks again for venturing forth on this one. New anything can cause a lukewarm or timid response. :)

HUH?

I am kind of new to all this, and will need to ask/reseach this stuff before I come to an idea of what I am doing

Thanks

Hey fellas

I have been working with this guy at the local Jr. college trying to get a 4400 running. So far we tied Mach into the existing AHHA drives. So the x y and Z are moving just fine through Mach. Our recent stumbling block has been trying to get Mach to drive to spindle. This is what we've done.

To unlock the brake on the spindle we cut the end off an extension cord and wired to the harness on top of the motor, and plugged it in...it seemed to unlock the brake just fine.

To get the spindle to turn we hooked up a -15/+15 VDC adjustable power supply, from the old electronics lab, to the servo dynamics pwm, and seemed to have some luck there. We had the spindle moving a different speeds according to the voltage that we supplied to it. We had a volt meter hooked to it, and I don't think we went over 10VDC.

But what we really want is a way to control the spindle through the parallel port from Mach.

Is this the same question you are all dealing with, or I am just opening a new can o' worms


You'll need a Hommann DigiSpeed or CNC4PC breakout board designed to drive a spindle. Some breakout boards will output a spindle signal as well.

They take step-dir signals and output the required +/- 10vdc to send a signal to the spindle drive. They both also include a relay to enable/disable the brake.

As far as the AHHA interface, it interfaces with the old electronics from Dyna, AFAIK. I would just take all old electronics out EXCEPT the stepper drives. These uses step/dir and you can connect them to a Mach3 controlled breakout board. This is better as the stock Dyna hardware has some speed limitations due to ancient chips used.

I designed some circuit boards to do just this, makes things a lot easier.

NOTE: just reading some stuff upthread and I could be wrong about the spindle drive as it may require a different signal than a VFD (which both the CNC4PC and Hommann units are designed for). My spindle drive is still broken and I am making one last attempt to fix it before I replace it with a new unit from Beel or Bardac

P.S. If anyone has any great ideas on how to troubleshoot my Servo Dynamics spindle drive, please PM me....

HTH,

Chris.

OK, so I just looked in the manual for the Servo Dynamics spindle drive and the input signal was clearly designed for a signal pot (scans of the relevant manual pages are below), so the spindle will need a signal as output by the CNC4pc or Hommann boards mentioned above.

HTH,

Chris.

Woodturn, Just so I am clear, Does your machine have the HA40CS motors on the X and Y axis with the HA80CS on the Z?

DSE

I am not sure what kind of steppers are on this exact machine. The guy before us hooked up the AHHA, so he may know, but he moved out of the area.

Got to get to work, the boss is comming

Hi all, I am Woodturn's friend who is working on the Dyna 4400 with him. What the main problem for us is that the SD30-60 drive we have for the spindle needs -15v and +15v to operate the internal circuitry and that power supply appears to have been removed along with the old control components. So If any of you experienced with the 4400 know where this -15v +15v came from, for example which board which board, please let me know. I am going to have to make a power supply if we don't have the original components and I don't have a lot of time to tinker with stuff.

CKM (Chris)

You may want to check with Quality Industrial Electronics to get an estimate on repairs vs. replacement. Check their site out http://www.qie.com/aboutus.html

Woodturn and friend

If you and CKM are talking about the same amp/drive, look upstream at CKM's post with manual info. Looks as though +15 is at pin 10 and -15 at pin 12 (~50mA). I'm guessing you just want to use a potentiometer to local/manual control the spindle.

I don't think you are understanding what I am getting at. I know how to control the spindle I know what pins etc. I will be using either a computer or my own micrprocessor designed circuit to control that aspect of spindle rotation cw/ccw and speed. What I m searching for is what board the dyna 4400 had that delivered the necessary -15v and +15v supply voltages for the Servo Dynamics drive. Without this board I will have to build an opamp (inverting) power supply to give me the negative voltage that I need also Servo dynamics said they wanted at 2 amp supply with on these 2 inputs. So if I knew what board this was and if we still had it I was hoping to save time and effort by possibly being able to reuse it. So does anybody know what board supplies this -15v and +15v power to the drive?

I don't think you are understanding what I am getting at. I know how to control the spindle I know what pins etc. I will be using either a computer or my own micrprocessor designed circuit to control that aspect of spindle rotation cw/ccw and speed. What I m searching for is what board the dyna 4400 had that delivered the necessary -15v and +15v supply voltages for the Servo Dynamics drive. Without this board I will have to build an opamp (inverting) power supply to give me the negative voltage that I need also Servo dynamics said they wanted at 2 amp supply with on these 2 inputs. So if I knew what board this was and if we still had it I was hoping to save time and effort by possibly being able to reuse it. So does anybody know what board supplies this -15v and +15v power to the drive?

123CNC is right. The SD 3060 provides it's own 15v power supply. It's pins 10-12 of connector J1. See the diagrams I posted in post #37, they are scans of the SD3060 factory manual. If you don't have +/- 15v at those pins, then the internal 15v power supply is bad. If you take the SD3060's cover off and look behind the large circuit board, you will see, from left to right (with the terminal strip at the left) the 15v PS, a large capacitor, the rectifier diodes and regen circuit. I actually have pictures of all this, just not right here. I'll try to post them later tonight.

Also, I don't think you actually need 15v, 10v might do. You don't really need to build your own board, just get a breakout board that has a 0-10v signal out, and use relays to flop voltage if you need a reversing spindle. Unless you like making work for yourself. Also you should really check the 2400 build thread I linked to, they have reverse engineered some pinouts from an AHHA....

@123CNC, thanks for the repair recommendation. I'm actually re-building the rectifier circuit with all new components, hopefully that will do the trick.

Chris.

Woodturn, Just so I am clear, Does your machine have the HA40CS motors on the X and Y axis with the HA80CS on the Z?

DSE

Those two motors are AC servos, only used on the 4400M. Woodturn's machine is a 4400C and came with steppers, whose specs I posted upthread (there is also a picture of them...).

In general, AC servos are much, much more powerful than either steppers or DC servos. They also require much more complicated drives, but it's what is used in modern machines.

HTH,

Chris.

Hey ckm, I talked to Victor at servo dynamics I guess he is head servo drive guy for the sd3060. Anyway he told me from the get go you need to apply external -/+ 15v to the drive or it wouldn't work and he also said it would need to be 2 amps or more. So I thought this was weird myself in the beginning since the dyna 4400 schematics we have never noted an actual external input to those pins. So I will measure these pins tomorrow and check this out as per your post. So I would imagine if pin 10 and 12 +15v and -15v I could use them for the positive and negative signal for the signal input for the amp, is this correct? The strange thing is that I have connected an external power supply to those pins -15v +15v and the drive operated correctly. So I will investigate for suggestions.

Hey ckm, I talked to Victor at servo dynamics I guess he is head servo drive guy for the sd3060. Anyway he told me from the get go you need to apply external -/+ 15v to the drive or it wouldn't work and he also said it would need to be 2 amps or more. So I thought this was weird myself in the beginning since the dyna 4400 schematics we have never noted an actual external input to those pins. So I will measure these pins tomorrow and check this out as per your post. So I would imagine if pin 10 and 12 +15v and -15v I could use them for the positive and negative signal for the signal input for the amp, is this correct? The strange thing is that I have connected an external power supply to those pins -15v +15v and the drive operated correctly. So I will investigate for suggestions.

Well, I have the manual in front of me, and it says nothing about external 15vdc power, let alone 2amps. That seems like a lot, esp. since the industry standard for this type of control is +/- 10vdc and in the 200 milliamp range... The manual states the following for signal input:


Signal Input Voltages
+/- 10 Volts (typ)
+/- 15 Volts (max)
That would suggest that 10vdc is just fine, which makes sense. Also, the original wiring in the cabinet is very small, about 16 gauge, which would seem to rule out a 15vdc, 2A requirement.

Besides, these:

http://www.cnczone.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=51311&d=1200904135

are the only DC power supplies in the cabinet (+/-12vdc / +/- 5vdc, 48vdc [steppers], respectively), and this:

http://www.cnczone.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=51319&d=1200904215

is the spindle controller. AFAIK, there is no linear regulator or other power management circuit on it. Also, the 15vdc outputs on the SD3060 are not used in the Dyna factory configuration, suggesting the control board is driving the SD3060 is actually being driven at 12vdc.

You should really look at this (http://www.cnczone.com/forums/showpost.php?p=397150&postcount=5) post for more pictures of a stock 4400C's wiring, control boards and power supplies. That's where those images come from....

P.S. If you ever design a circuit to drive the spindle, you should post the schematics/PCBs....

HTH,

Chris.

Hey Chris thanks for the pics and info. I have talked with Victor many times at servo dynamics and I have been questioning this +/- 15v external input scenario but he swears you have to have it and I think that it is crazy. The drive would not work untill I did hook it with an external +/- 15v, but then again there could be something wrong with our drive also. I believe what you guys are telling me I will be at the college tomorrow to check it out. I just have a hard time believing that the amp would need external power to make it operate, you would assume that it was designed into the drive from the beginning which I believe it was and for how expensive these drives are new. So I will check it out tomorrow and see what we come up with.
Thanks again.

Hey Chris thanks for the pics and info. I have talked with Victor many times at servo dynamics and I have been questioning this +/- 15v external input scenario but he swears you have to have it and I think that it is crazy. The drive would not work untill I did hook it with an external +/- 15v, but then again there could be something wrong with our drive also. I believe what you guys are telling me I will be at the college tomorrow to check it out. I just have a hard time believing that the amp would need external power to make it operate, you would assume that it was designed into the drive from the beginning which I believe it was and for how expensive these drives are new. So I will check it out tomorrow and see what we come up with.
Thanks again.

Unfortunately, facts contradict SD tech support. Both the original factory manual (which is pretty clear about input signals...) and the Dyna factory setup indicate that less than 15vdc is needed to drive the SD. There isn't a source of 15vdc in the whole power cabinet. Plus, the standard back then was driving servos at 10vdc.

I would be skeptical of someone at SD as well. This drive was made 20 years ago and there probably aren't many people at SD that were around when it was in production. Never mind the fact that SD tech support has called at least a couple of other SD3060's that I know of un-repairable (any piece of electronics is repairable....) and then gone on suggest a replacement that was designed for an AC servo (not a DC servo like our spindle ... duh), so I don't have much confidence in their knowledge of any of this....

You can always call Dyna and find out what they say. They've always been very responsive to tech support inquiries.

Chris.

I agree about your opinion on how accurate of recollection that SD company has. Victor who I talked to you was suppose to have been employed there a while ago when that drive was still somewhat main stream, but I still have my doubts. I agree with you, any thing electronically can be fixed. Anyone who tells you it can not are usually not honest.

right on b5n7i2o5 you tell em. Lets get this thing figured out!!!

Stonebarnfarm did more research on the motors and encoders for the 4400M (the one with the Mitsubishi control) and posted it on this (http://www.cnczone.com/forums/showthread.php?t=38465&page=3) thread about Granite Devices servo drives.

From this (http://www.cnczone.com/forums/showpost.php?p=413605&postcount=26) post:

Here is what I can find from Mitsubshi:

Motor HA40CS 3Phase
Input in 100% (kVA) 1.0
Input in 100% at 170V 3.4

Motor HA80CS 3 Phase
Input in 100% (kVA) 1.6
Input in 100% at 170V 5.4

Maintain a voltage of 170V to 242V at servo amp.

I also found the wiring but only what 3 wires go to the motor windings, 2 go to thermo and 1 to earth.



And about the encoders, from this (http://www.cnczone.com/forums/showpost.php?p=414180&postcount=28) post:

They are OSE5KN -6-12-108
Mitsubshi reports:

OSE - Optical type shaft encoder
5K - 5000 P/R
N - Special symbol
6 - output channels
12 - Shaft diameter
108 - Flange diameter



Just trying to keep all this info in one place so people can find it when the come looking....

Chris.

So my friends were back at the 4400 at the Jr. college last Thursday and found that there is in fact a -+ 15 power supply hooked in the spindle drive. Cool. Now there is some relay issue that he tried to explain to me about hooking into Mach, at the time it made sense but I could not repeat it now if I tried. I'll talk to him on Tuesday and see what is what. I wanted to say thanks to all of you that helped us get over this little stumbling block.


Thanks

Now there is some relay issue that he tried to explain to me about hooking into Mach, at the time it made sense but I could not repeat it now if I tried. I'll talk to him on Tuesday and see what is what. I wanted to say thanks to all of you that helped us get over this little stumbling block.

Well, if it has to do with the spindle, then a relay would normally be used to reverse directions. HOWEVER, the spindle driver on the 4400 is NOT a normal spindle driver (in the Mach sense), it's actually a servo driver, so the spindle is a giant servo.... This is great because you get much more control over the operation of the spindle (for things like rigid tapping), but it sucks because Mach expects spindles to have one speed signal and two relays (one for direction, the other for the brake...).

Instead the SD servo drive takes a +/- 10v signal, where -10v is full speed one direction and +10v is full speed the opposite direction.... 0v is stopped... Which would be OK, since you might be able to treat the spindle as just another axis, except for the fact that Skyko has stopped making step-dir to +/-10v converters (and, AFAIK, they were the only source).

So, if your community college buddy wants a good class project, a step-dir to +/-10v converter would be a good start, with the source and pcb's made available on CNCzone.... ;-)

There is an additional complication related to the tool changer vs spindle, but that's another post...

PS - It would be awesome if you all could document your conversion with pics and other details...

Edit: actually, it looks like Rutex has a couple of step/dir to +/-10v converters, the R991H or the R2040, although they are expensive at $100 ea.

Chris.

Just found another thread related to the Dyna 4400 series:

http://www.cnczone.com/forums/showthread.php?t=23562

I have Servo Dynamics 1525 drives on my big mill (driven by Pixies). They take +-15V input for the board as well as 30 to 100VDC for the drive portion. The signal input is +-10V. I use a Condor GMP55E power supply for the SD input. The GMP55E has +-15V, +5V and +24V. The 15V outputs are rated 1A (the SD needs 350 mA), the 5V output is 6A and the 24V is 1.5A. This power supply should have everything you need.

Vince

I have Servo Dynamics 1525 drives on my big mill (driven by Pixies). They take +-15V input for the board as well as 30 to 100VDC for the drive portion. The signal input is +-10V. I use a Condor GMP55E power supply for the SD input. The GMP55E has +-15V, +5V and +24V. The 15V outputs are rated 1A (the SD needs 350 mA), the 5V output is 6A and the 24V is 1.5A. This power supply should have everything you need.

Thanks Vince. The setup on the Dyna is that the SD drive is mounted in a chassis which has 180vdc and 15vdc power supplies integrated. But if the SD power supply is fried, the GMP55E would be a good option, at least for the 15V part.

Just out of curiosity, what do you use as a 100VDC power supply?

Thx.

Chris.

Just out of curiosity, what do you use as a 100VDC power supply?
Thx.
Chris.

The 100VDC is part of the SD installation. In the picture you can see the three cards to the lower left and under them a capacitor. I think SD called this the mother board and the three axis cards plug into it. The mother board has the 100VDC power supply. The SD1526 drives that SD now makes are stand alone with the DC power supply in each drive.

Vince

Ah, the pic explains a lot. Here is a picture of a 'naked' SD3060 chassis like the one in the 4400.

From the left are the 15vdc PS, and then the motor power supply capacitor. Missing is are the diode rectifiers and regen circuit, as I have these removed for repairs.

The driver itself fits in front of this and the whole thing is enclosed.

Chris

All,

There is a 4400C for sale in GA, it looks in OK shape from the pictures:

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=360032260222

The lot is for a bunch of CNC machines. If anyone wins it and wants to part with the DM3000 lathe, I'd be interested...

Thx.

Chris.

Well, it's been a while since I posted. Work has been sucking up most of my time, and it's about to increase...

Never the less, I've managed to make some progress on the 4400. First a teaser shot:

56159

Yeah! All painted. What a huge pain in the ass that was. This much of a pain, actually:

56160 56161

Here are some more shots of the final machine and some other of it with the coolant tray removed.

56162 56163 56164

I started painting while waiting for parts to come in, then it turned into a huge project and sidetracked the project. I did finally get my custom boards in a couple of weeks ago, I'll have some pictures of them shortly

These boards do three things:


Breakout the existing wiring between the console and the cabinet
Breakout the existing stepper drive connections
Turn the screw terminals on the BoB into IDC headers

These were made by ExpressPCB, using their prototyping service. I actually put several boards on the same PCB, then cut them out. The first ones were cut on a vertical bandsaw, which works OK, but is inaccurate and dangerous. After some research, I found that people were recommending a paper cutter (the guillotine type). Well, we have even better than that in our shop, with a large number of sheet metal slicing tools. A bench mounted throatless shear works wonders on PCBs and the cuts are really straight.

I'll more pictures of the finished setup in the next few days. I've crimped up all the IDC cross connects and installed the controller software, so I'm pretty close to firing everything up.

Finally, I got a replacement for the Servo Dynamics spindle drive.

56165

This is a Minarik DC driver and it's about 1/5th of the size of the Servo Dynamics unit. It's missing some features like built-in reversing, but it's definitely 20 years newer technology....

Chris.

I took some pictures of the new electronics..

First off are my custom boards. From left to right are the stepper motor backplane breakout, console breakout, IDC to terminal strip converters, IDC/terminal strip in place, and finally everything in place. I also added some pictures of of the naked, uncut PCBs.

56174 56175 56176 56177 56178 56179

On the controller side, I'm using a very small all-in-one motherboard with a bunch on interesting pieces.

56180 56181 56182 56183 56184

The left picture shows the console breakout connected to the parallel port on the motherboard I'm using (1.4 Ghz, 1Gb Ram), which you can see in the next picture. One of the things I did was buy a very, very small power supply (the yellow thing in the next picture) which uses 12v. As the mill has a 3.0A 12vdc power supply, this will work nicely, and I'm feeding it through the old connector harness (although I still have to check if there is already 12v in the existing wires).

The next picture shows my other nifty gadget, which is a 4GB solid-state harddrive. It plugs straight into an IDE socket and is powered like a normal drive. The last picture is an overview of the whole thing on the backside of the old console (old console removed, obviously). The great thing about this motherboard and associated gizmos is that there are no moving parts at all, and no large power supply that needs AC.

I still don't know what exactly I'm going to do about powering the touchscreen, but I'm going to look at it carefully to see if I can't power it with 12vdc as well...

I'm thinking that the mill's stock PS may get max'd out (if it isn't already), so perhaps I should install a dedicated 12v PS for the computer.... That small PSU plugged into the MB is only 90W, but that's 7.5A, which is twice what the mill's stock 12v ps puts out, although I don't have a harddrive, so that would reduce the load.

That's it for now.

Chris

i do have those mills too the dm4000 work like a charm it never let me down for over 10 years.. i aquired a dm4400 before christmas and this one is a nightmare ...as power supply it blown up one by one i am ordering a kit from machmotion a brand new mach3 wich will be installed on the dm4400 i should paint it like yours but blue and white..
tell me posted as you retrofit yours as the tool changers and the spindle drive is not set yet i would appreciate your experience to retrofit it

Sag

Chris, Have you had any luck with the spindle portion of your retro fit. I have purchased and been testing the VSD from Granite Devices for the AC servos and I am almost to the solution. The next step is the spindle drive but I am not sure where to start. Any thoughts? DSE

I have the opportunity to purchase a DM4800 for cheap. It has a mitsu meldas m3 control. It has not been run in some time, is this machine likely to be friendly to work with. I have not found a 4800 model mentioned in any threads. can anybody help? I can get it for $2500. It is hard to believe that it wouldn't be worth that much in scrap metal. any suggestions of where to look for big problems? I'm a newbie to all this, just looking for a machine to get my foot in the door- already have a new shopbot and want something to machine metal.

The 4800 has 32" x 20" travels. Uses a 40 taper spindle with either 6K or 10K rpm spindle. 24 tool ATC (about 12 seconds tool - to - tool). Machine weighs approx 12K lbs and has all box ways.

Mits still supports the control but replacement pieces are expensive. Runs standard G & M codes. Has 32K or 64K memory and will dripfeed/DNC at 9600 baud.

If it's been sitting for a while, most likely the battery is dead and the memory card requires re-formatting. Mits will provide the procedure but the parameters will have to be uploaded or entered by hand. Dyna should still have parameters they can email you.

you lucky guy to find a dm4800 for $2500.00 i have been looking for one like that for years and you have one...........lucky you
my personnal opinion.. but it is mine...it is a bit big for a first timer but it will be nice to work with it once you have it repair.
the mit controller is a very nice control and very frendly user to work with i did work on those for decade you can use a fanuc processor to program it with minor change on offset procedure...
as for repair yessssssss it is very expensive to repair try to check the spindle if it run because the spindle drive board is extremely expensive to change and seem to be weak it blowwwww once a while and cost the price you paid for your machine to replace it plus the cost of the repairman..
before to start the machine have a look at the encoders on the axes drive they had the tendency to fill with coolant through the connector it would be a great idea to clean them at once..
SaGaDa

Thanks for the replies. We were playing around with it today, spindle runs fine, orients with ATC, All axes jog and home fine , ATC carousel rotates manually cw and ccw, but we can't get it to change tools. We tried to program it in MDI,(m06 t16) and nothing works. There is a good set of manuals and it appears that we are following all the steps correctly. Caprirs, could this be a dead battery / memory format issue? or If we have power to the crt are we alright. I thought that in another post I saw where you were helping someone out that could not get the CRT to light up.

One of the biggest difficulties is that all the labels have been worn off the control panel, and the documentation seems to be a bit off, as far as the button and light layout goes. Does anyone have a good image of the operator controls for the mits meldas m3so I could mark everything correctly?

I'm not sure how apparent my ignorance is in my writing, I am not totally virgin to this - (I worked for the last year operating a tape-cnc converted Bridgeport Boss with a an AHHa controller (I think) in a little two man shop as an apprentice before it closed), but automatic toolchangers, Mcode and DNC is not something I am familiar with. Sagada, it is good to hear that this sounds like a good deal to somebody else. You are right, it is big, but it is already in the shop I am working out of (I don't have to move it and I have access to good tooling). The guy that I share space with got it for a real steal, and was going to use it but doesn't have the time to devote to learning the mits control (He is running two new Haas machines that work just fine for him). My good price is contingent on allowing for overflow from his projects. I thought for the price I couldn't go wrong.

I plan on calling Mitsubishi and the last owners who operated the machine regularly in the morning, but would appreciate any advice here as well. I am really fascinated and eager to learn about all that I can. I appreciate anyone willing to help who is also willing to put up with the gaps in my understanding. Thanks, Mike.

It's possible the battery was low enough to lose some parameters and the tool change macro. The alarm screen should indicate a Zxx alarm for low battery if that's the case. The tool change macro should be program number 9000 or 9001.

It's also possible the control does not know which tool is in the spindle and/or where the carousel is. Again, Mits can provide the procedure but I think it's R1854 and R1984. If memory serves, rotate the carousel so pocket #1 faces the spindle and make sure there is no tool in the spindle or pocket #1.
- Go to ALARM/DIAG, press the soft key at the bottom PLC-I/F.
- In the first field at the bottom of the screen, type in R1954, next field gets 1, next field gets 2, press INPUT.
- In the first field, , type in R1984, next field gets 1, next field gets 2, press INPUT.
- Power off the control, wait about 10 seconds, and power up again. The main disconnect does not have to be powered off.
- Home the machine, then try the tool change through in MDI.

The worn panels are common. I think Dyna can get replacement ones for a hefty price. The mode select switch at least changes on the CRT.

In good working order, the 4800 will take as heavy a cut as any Mazak or Mori. It will out cut most Okumas of comparable size. Where it does not do well is high speed surfacing and frequent tool changes due to it's age.

........... wowhuh
In Montreal where i live the machine dealer really think an old machine is like a new one so when come the time to buy one they sell them at a price you won't believe it is called a R.. O.. so am happy for you for your DM4800..
it is a very good idea to call mits let them have a look at it and let them reajust the control for you i was doing so with them since a had 3 mits in my shop.. i use to tell them to stop by once a while to reajust them not every week but once a year or so and not a special trip but when they were coming around this way it is cheaper......
i do have a dm4000 and a dm4400 which run fine i am specializing in small parts for electronic company and recently i did bought a complete system a mach3 to retrofit one of them...i am looking for a bit bigger lile leadwell mcv0 witj a mit meldas mo on it and right now they are asking $11,000.00 for it so i imagine yours at $2500.00.......

You guys are great. Caprirs I went through the sequence you provided and when I switched to MDI this screen came up.62715
Any suggestions? If you can't make it out in the image, it says under <stop code> T01 can't cycle start 0104.

Does a tool need to be in the carousel? Does the spindle need to be oriented at a particular time in this process? Do I need to move the carousel out of the #1 position? You also included R1854, R1954, R1984 in your last post, was this correct? When I go to ALARM/DIAG press PLC/IF I get two places to enter info...it looks like this..

( )( )( ) ( )( )( )
Do I fill in both sets, then press INPUT or first set... (R1984)(1)(2) INPUT second set...(R1984)(1)(2) INPUT?

I have called Mits and keep getting voicemail, maybe it was a long weekend. I bet you guys will get back to me before they do. Here is a photo of my control I think I have it labeled correctly.




62716

I am new to this forum, so I hope I attached images correctly.

Thanks again for all your help.

first topo you don't need a tool in the carousel to make a tool change just make sure the spindle is empty of tool or the station you want otherwisw they will meet and you will have problem to take it off ....it would be a good practice for the moment to keep the spindle and the carousel empty until you get it working... on the old version of mits the carousel tool number had to match with the number you call on the control....on newer control the mits has tool manager that control the tool number and the carousel..exemple.....tool 1 could be place in number 20 in carousel , if you call it it would get the tool 1 in the pocket 20 in the carousel it would be up to you to write the tool identity on a piece of paper and keep it near the machine in a plastic pouch to keep clean..
as far of the orientation yessssssssss it should orient into a specific position in order to receive the tool otherwise it would fall of the table ..
when you call a tool on mdi the machine should zero home on the Z axes and orient to get the tool...if you don't get that process hummmmmmm......issssssshhhhhhhhhhhh

topo two ...on mdi command the control would not do a second same command until you reset the machine you must have that key on your control

exemple if you call T01 M06 and get the tool it is ok
your next command must be different like T02 M06

another thing why don't you try a little program instead of mdi like

G40 G80 :
G91 G28 X0 Y0 Z0 :
T01 M06 :
G0 G43 G90 X10.0 Y-10. Z 10. H01 :
S2200 M03 :
GO X0 YO :
M05 :
G91 G28 Z0 :
T02 M06 :
M30 :
it will make a different tool change outside MDI and make the axes go around
wish i could be there to help but ....... have fun

S

S
I notice you are typing
T01 M06;

I have been typing M06 T1..could the order be an issue? or T01 vs T1? I have been re-homing each axis every time I power up the control, if I do not move xy&z off the home switch could this be the problem? Before I checked the last post we tried a simple command "g00 x10 y10" -- hit cycle start -- nothing but the "t01 can't cycle start 0104" on the alarm page.

I spent an hour on the phone with Omar from Mits, we worked through a few things, and he was unable to think of what the problem might be.

you also said:

another thing why don't you try a little program instead of mdi like

G40 G80 :
G91 G28 X0 Y0 Z0 :
T01 M06 :
G0 G43 G90 X10.0 Y-10. Z 10. H01 :
S2200 M03 :
GO X0 YO :
M05 :
G91 G28 Z0 :
T02 M06 :
M30 :
it will make a different tool change outside MDI and make the axes go around...


what screen should be up? and where should my mode switch be positioned? I assume I hit PROGRAM|IN/OUT should my switch be toggled to MEMORY? do I hit softkey for INPUT?

Does anybody know of any good links/resources/books where I can read up on this type of control so I can improve my communication skills with the terminology? I kick myself for not going to school for this stuff, but I am young and willing to learn and again, I thank you for your patience with me.

hey hey
the tool change order should not make a difference you could have M06 on the first line and T01 on the other one...
it is very important to home all axes before doing anything at first power up
as far as your alarm number why don't you have a look in your book it should be there.. oupsssssssss juste a simple axes move on MDI don't work mmmmmmm
G0 X10. Y-10. : your Y must me in negative not positive because you are on the switch ...also have a look at the offset page on the control the G54 line has to have some value...
G54 G41 X .500
G42 Y-.500
G43 Z 0.0
this will remove you from the switch
for the programming you have to set the selector to EDIT mode and you have to go to MDI page and open a number for a program and store it there
when you want to run the program you have to go to MEMORY and make a search for the number you had chosen for your program..
but all that come with experience and manyyyyyyyy nights to play on the control and read your book starting page 1....
have a chair and a coke in front of your console and spend time like a did you will become a cnc king after a few years....


Sagada (Rejean)

Might help,

Another guy is getting similar error message on a Meldas 50 Lathe, as posted under General CNC forum. Some advice there

"Look for output Y219, this is the feed hold signal to the CNC. This signal must be ON in order to cycle start."

Good Luck

This forum is great. what started out as a lousy day has really shaped up as it is coming to a close. Thanks 123cnc, you are right I found that out talking to a mits guy in chicago (not nearly as friendly as the fella in california). He told me it (feed hold) was normally closed and should have 24vdc across it, I got 22.8 and like a real idiot switched the multimeter to ohms, and I shorted out the power supply...boy I thought I just bought the machine and the service to fix it right then and there. I thought I was going to be ill for about three hours. turns out there is a reset switch in the back. Error messages went away, and a few hours later we found out from the previous owners that the door interrupt switch needed to be turned on, and that was the cause to all the problems. I have seen it change tools and move around, how exciting! and to top it off I just got my big router hooked up and moving, what a pain that has been. Warning to anyone thinking about a Shopbot: you better be creative because there are alot of holes in the assembly information. I am sure the machine will operate great, but if I had it to do all over again I think I would like to have one delivered pre-assembled or build my own from scratch. It has been nearly a week and a half of assembly with a new problem just about every day. I sure am ready to make some chips. Thanks everybody. Rejean, I will take your advice about the chair and a soda, I need to stock up on Squirt.

:) It's usually something simple, isn't it? The door interlock is bypassed so often, I didn't even think about it. Glad you got it working.

mmmmmmmmm the door switch..... shame on us not thinking about that so simple like caprirs said.......

Chris, Have you had any luck with the spindle portion of your retro fit. I have purchased and been testing the VSD from Granite Devices for the AC servos and I am almost to the solution. The next step is the spindle drive but I am not sure where to start. Any thoughts? DSE

Sorry for not replying earlier. I have done some work on the spindle, mostly repairing the old drive. I've decided, however, to replace the drive as it is hard to control from standard controls due to the -10v - +10v control signal and the old style feedback.

So I bought a new (from ebay) spindle drive. I'll post the specs as I get things closer to running.

Chris.

I have the opportunity to purchase a DM4800 for cheap. It has a mitsu meldas m3 control. It has not been run in some time, is this machine likely to be friendly to work with. I have not found a 4800 model mentioned in any threads. can anybody help? I can get it for $2500. It is hard to believe that it wouldn't be worth that much in scrap metal. any suggestions of where to look for big problems? I'm a newbie to all this, just looking for a machine to get my foot in the door- already have a new shopbot and want something to machine metal.

$2500 is a good price IF everything major seems to be working. By major, I mean the spindle and all axes move with the current controller. Otherwise, you might be in for a lot more money.

I figure that a conversion to current specs using typical hardware and software often seen on CNCzone (Mach3, Gecko drives, etc) will cost around $1500 if all the drives are working OK, $2000 if you want the tool changer to work as well and significantly more if you have to replace any motors. Note that the newer enclosed machines (e.g. with the Meldas controls) use servos rather than steppers which will cost even more if something is broken.

You also have to figure that it will take you something like 4-6 man weeks to retrofit a machine if it needs it. Also, the BT-30 tooling is not that easy to find.

HOWEVER, the upside of this is that you can have a really good compact bed mill for less than $5k, which is pretty insane. And, when you have everything working with modern controls, it will likely be worth more than what you put into it.

Chris.

So, I did finally get the 4400 moving with Mach3 using some bridge boards I built, but it's really very slow and I was still having some issues trying to reuse existing components.

Rather than continue fighting against all the old hardware, I finally decided to convert the whole machine to servos as I already had some of the hardware laying around. It's a lot more cash (around $1000), but I think it will be worth it in the long run.

Since the machine already has NEMA34 mounts, this is a pretty easy task. I ordered some NEMA34 servos from Keling, along with the appropriate power supply. I already had a bunch of Geckos from another project, so I'll be using those. This should simplify everything greatly and give better performance.

On of the main issues was that there are only homing switches on this machine, so I need to retrofit some limit switches as well. Another issue is that the limit switches are NO, which is not exactly safe, particularly with faster servos.

So, in sum, I'm basically replacing all the electronics in the cabinet, keeping some of the wiring and power supplies.

If anyone needs any of the old electronics, please PM me. I'll have everything from the steppers back available shortly.

Chris.

hey hey CKM
am happy to see am not the only one retrofitting this machine, i did bought a complete system from machmotion with a touch screen and gecko drive and the spindle control interface...
Presently i am at the point of looking at it on a table i am looking for stepper motor since i want to see the system working on the table (wich one do you suggest me to replace the original one since i don't need the encoder at the back) i would like to stay with nema34 like you said it is mounted with that size..
what is making me worry is the spindle and the tool changer i was told by machmotion there are no hardware to make it work for the moment and the spindle drive is very old i did open it and clean all parts like new but it still old technology it would be nice to replace this unit..'
i have a dm4400 and a dm4000 wich run great but i want to replace the electronic with new technology....

hey hey CKM
am happy to see am not the only one retrofitting this machine, i did bought a complete system from machmotion with a touch screen and gecko drive and the spindle control interface...
Presently i am at the point of looking at it on a table i am looking for stepper motor since i want to see the system working on the table (wich one do you suggest me to replace the original one since i don't need the encoder at the back) i would like to stay with nema34 like you said it is mounted with that size..
what is making me worry is the spindle and the tool changer i was told by machmotion there are no hardware to make it work for the moment and the spindle drive is very old i did open it and clean all parts like new but it still old technology it would be nice to replace this unit..'
i have a dm4400 and a dm4000 wich run great but i want to replace the electronic with new technology....

You don't specify what kind of Geckos you got from Mach motion. If you are going to replace the motors, servos are the way to go, which would require the 3xx series from Gecko (I'm using the 320s). The reason for this is pretty simple, the mill is quite large to use steppers. It'll work, but they will probably get very hot given the amount of power required. However, whether you use servos or steppers, Keling (http://www.kelinginc.net/) is the best source I have found for motors. I bought three motors from them and a power supply.

As far as the spindle goes, if the current drive works, you can re-use it. The biggest problem with it is that it expects a -10 to +10 vdc signal. -10 is full speed reverse, +10 is full speed forward, with 0vdc being stop. Most of the spindle drive boards only produce 0 vdc to +10vdc, so you only have one direction. A clever circuit could swap the voltage, but no one has created one yet.

The tool changer is not that hard to deal with (see one of my previous posts for the logic and other details), but you will need more inputs that you currently have. The best way to deal with it would be a PLC, but they are not cheap, although I've recently found CuBloc (http://cubloc.com/product/01_01.php) which has really cheap PLCs. I was planning to use the Mach3 'brains' feature with a ModBus interface from CNC4PC, but Cubloc may be better.

HTH,

Chris.

CKM
i am using the 201 gecko since it was suggested to me....what i am looking for are the steppers that would replace the one from the dm4400 with about the same power or more and with 4 wires to connect them i was told the encoder would not be required since the software would take care of the position..
i do not required large stepper since am only doing plastic and aluminum parts in large quantity i need speed and trying to keep the stepper as cold as i can so if you have any sugg i would appreciate very much.
as far as the spindle i do not require a -10 v to reverse the spindle since i never did for the last 13 years...
i appreciate your time
many thanks
:cheers:
Rejean

http://www.machmotion.com/product_info.php?cPath=30&products_id=89

CKM
i am using the 201 gecko since it was suggested to me....what i am looking for are the steppers that would replace the one from the dm4400 with about the same power or more and with 4 wires to connect them i was told the encoder would not be required since the software would take care of the position..
i do not required large stepper since am only doing plastic and aluminum parts in large quantity i need speed and trying to keep the stepper as cold as i can so if you have any sugg i would appreciate very much.


Well, servos are better suited to this size machine and would be faster. You should never just buy hardware without first doing some research on what is needed to meet your requirements. I know the 4400 already uses steppers, but it's 20 year old technology at this point.....

Anyway, Marcus (from GeckoDrive) has some good tips here: http://www.cnczone.com/forums/showthread.php?t=52090
Keep in mind that there is a 5-1 belt drive built into the 4400c.

Keling's stepper page is here http://www.kelinginc.net/NEMA34Motor.html
You'll also need a power supply that can drive those, if you search on CNCzone, you will find posts about how to calculate the power supply size.

One problem you will have to solve is that the current drives have 3/8" drive shafts and most NEMA34 steppers are 1/2". The motor couplings are generic Lovejoy couplings, although the size in use does not support 1/2", so you'll have to be creative.

HTH,

Chris.

CKM
ISSSSHHHHHHHHHHHHH about machmotion and their advice..
)(&*^%$##@!~~!@

CKM
ISSSSHHHHHHHHHHHHH about machmotion and their advice..
)(&*^%$##@!~~!@

Well, their stuff is really expensive. I'm putting together a touchscreen control panel with a LOT more physical buttons for less than $1000.

Here's a picture of the layout (click for a larger image).

63504

That's a 19" anodized black aluminum panel with color filed engraved markings.

I bought 2 and 3 way switches in bulk, as well as a bunch of push buttons. There are two potentiometers, which were the most expensive things, and the whole panel talks to Mach3 via USB. The monitor is a 3M touchscreen 15" diag. Controlling all the is an Intel Mini-ITX computer with a solid state harddrive and a 12V power supply. The spindle is being driven by a Minarik 5HP DC drive instead of the Servo Dynamics unit.

Total cost so far for the panel is around $600. I have another $700 or so in electronics for the motors and toolchanger, including the breakout board and Geckos. The total cost of the conversion, including the new servos, is around $2300, plus my time.

The only thing I haven't yet bought is a pendant with an MPG. I really like the Homann Designs pendant (http://homanndesigns.com/store/index.php?main_page=product_info&products_id=28), but it's really, really expensive. CNC4PC has some really good designs that are 1/2 the price.

I did, however, spend a whole lot more stupid money on stuff I am not going to use, although I might use some of it for a lathe I'd like to CNC. Basically, almost everything that you need is available from two vendors, Keling and CNC4pc. You can spend a lot of time (and money) looking elsewhere, but it's not really worth it.

The control panel is somewhat of a pain, but it's just a bunch of switches and a screen. Most of the hardware is available from Automation Direct or eBay. I spent a HUGE amount of time researching control panel layout and the result is mostly a copy of Matsuura control panels. Fanuc are also good ones to copy.

Chris.

CKM
very very nice am learning a lot from you the next machine will be different....for the moment i will to use what i have since everything is paid
i will make this one work with steppper since everything has been set up for those...
your pendant wowwwwwwwwwwww , i did ask machmotion for a removable one but they told me it was not available for their system another @#$#@@......
i will probably do the dm4000 with the system i have and the dm4400 with another one.......
many thanks for your knownledge..

rejean

CKM,

If you don't mind revealing your source, where did you pickup your "Intel MicroATX computer with a solid state harddrive?" I'm having a tough time finding a reasonably priced SSD. Does the MB have good old fashioned PCI slots?

123CNC,

The MB has one PCI slot, and all the typical ports, including parallel and serial. It's an Intel D201GLY2, a pretty common compact desktop board. You can find them online for $60-$70. The SSD is a Super Talent 4GB IDE unit. It was $150, I got it off eBay, but there are a fair number available at various online stores for roughly the same price. You can search for D201GLY2 and "4GB IDE Flash" and find a fair number of both of those.

The power supply is from mini-box.com and is powered by 12vdc. It's model picoPSU-90 (http://www.mini-box.com/s.nl?sc=8&category=13). MiniBox has a lot of stuff that could be of use for CNC builders, including specialized power control units with set startup sequences.

The touch screen is a 3M ChassisTouch 15". One of the things I have to deal with is that I have one serial port and two serial devices, the touchscreen being one of them. So I'm going to get a PCI serial card that will give me two more ports.

BTW, if you are looking for an extra parallel card, I suggest you strongly consider a SmoothStepper USB interface instead. It will give you two parallel ports through a single USB port, a good thing since most computers have at least 6 USB ports and no parallel ports.

There are two stores where I often look for cheap-ish computer stuff:

http://www.thenerds.net/
http://www.geeks.com/

http://www.pricewatch.com/ - Good search engine for computer junk

HTH,

Chris.

your pendant wowwwwwwwwwwww , i did ask machmotion for a removable one but they told me it was not available for their system another

I'm sure you can add a pendant from CNC4pc or Homann if you want. The CNC4pc ones (http://www.cnc4pc.com/Store/osc/index.php?cPath=40) are quite reasonable and all you need is free parallel or serial port.

Chris