Hi all,

CNC kit saga...

Well I had a choice a couple months ago, buy a turn on and go cnc mill like the CNC junior or buy a kit for a better quality mill and save a few bucks by doing the work myself. I opted for the kit but in the end didn't save any money as costs ballooned to around $5,500.

Today was day 40 of installing the kit that was only supposed to take the average person as little as a day to install... and I'm not done yet. Well take off 10 days for electrical work and I'm still 30 days working on the mechanicals. So what's the hold up right?

I guess my vision of a kit was quite different from the manufacture. I had ensured that this kit had actually been installed on the specific mill I purchased, in fact I purchased the mill they recommended as best for their kit. I thought this would all just bolt right on and I'd be up and running in a week or so.

I ran into issues not minutes after unpacking the kit from the boxes when I found some parts in the kit that were supposed to fit together did not. I used a grinder and file to fix these but thought I really should not have to be spending time fixing the kit before installing it. I shrugged it off at the time but later would realize this was a hint of things to come.

Thats pretty much the way things have gone, try to install a part, find a problem, remove the part, fix the problem. Tonight it was a limit switch, installed the part and the table would no longer move. Looked things over and noticed the spacer was overlapping and clamping against the table, removed it, tried to hog out the slotted hole as best I could to lower it below the table and after a couple tries it didn't look pretty but its bolted on.

The night before it was coming up 18 inches short of the supplied foam seal and the night before that it was missing radial bearings which I had to buy at my own cost and the night before that it was the z axis shaft being too long and the night before that it was...well you get the picture. Its like its been fighting every step of the way.

Instructions have been the other significant delay, they are at times just incomplete with continue to section B followed by "coming soon" but most often lack enough detail to get you through a task without questions so you have to think way too much about what to do. Sometimes they are just wrong and the procedure just doesn't fit the particular mill.

Lastly I have been disappointed with the quality, its not 1 or 2 parts but many parts that seem to me to have been machined in a hurry up fashion. Spacers that are not cut square or bored so that they stack evenly. Tooling gouges, bolt slots you have to beat the bolt into, mounts that are not bored in the center, screws that do not turn true. Perhaps I'm being picky but when I spend a few thousand dollars I don't like looking at parts that look sloppy and out of square. I'm sure they will meet their designed task but for example one mount had two bolt flanges, one was .100 shorter than the other and so the bolts stuck out the other side of the saddle and I had to buy shorter bolts. Its that kind of thing that erodes overall confidence in the product.

Support was initially excellent however at this point I'm probably the last person they want to hear from and vise versa. I don't know what I'll have when I'm finished, hopefully a cnc mill that works well but if I were starting over I might well go with a turn on and go machine even if it was a lesser quality mill, my experience with a kit has not been a good one.

:(

:) :) :)

Who sold you the kit?
At least other potential buyers should be made aware.

This sounds like a good ideal but sometimes these post get nuked!

Just Darek's opinion

Originally posted by HillBilly
This sounds like a good ideal but sometimes these post get nuked!

Just Darek's opinion


If the post does not follow the rules, than yes they do get nuked.
If it's constructive and is not done to bash a company or a person than it's allowed.

Personally I did not like being called a poor retrofitter but if impowered I would not remove or edit this remark since it is someone elses opinion! Besides if I am and don't realize it then this is a valid comment. I wish we all had the same intestinal fortitude (guts).

Darek

OK point made now lets keep this thread on topic.

Sendkeys makes a good counterpoint, I suppose there is no guarantee that a turn on and go machine would be a better product. The grass is always greener right.

I did not mention the company because thats not constructive and I do like the company. I am happy with portions of the kit, they have really good ideas and have been very helpful at times. They are also a small growing business and some of this may just be growing pains so I try to be understanding.

That said I am the customer and this was a healthy chunk of money so I can only be so forgiving. My intention with this thread is to help the next guy who's visiting CNCZone thinking about diving into this like I was a couple months ago to stop and think carefully before swiping his credit card. Communicate your expectations to the company before you buy and get an acknowledgement back in writing that says if things are not as agreed you can return the kit. Note I did not attempt to return mine and don't want to but such an agreement would be a good idea.

I would recommend the following...

Delivery - The expectation should be that they meet their delivery dates e.g. advise them to pad in some extra time if they need to. I would rather a company gave me a reasonable ship date with some time padded in and met or beat that date than to tell me its going to ship Monday and miss the date, and the next, and the next and get in a hurry to get it done. I'd rathery they take the time to do a good job. On the flip side don't go running to a competitor who gives you an unrealistic ship date when the other company just gave you an honest one.

Complete Kit - Agree that the kit will be complete when shipped then inspect the kit upon arrival carefully to ensure that its all there. They don't get paid until its complete and ready to ship, this provides them with some incentive.

Quality Control - Agree on a minimum level of quality, for the price its not going to look like 100 engineers from GE built it, but I would recommend agreeing that parts will be machined square without tool gouges or errors, that they will fit together as intended without additional machining on your part. Agree that they will inspect the parts before they ship for quality control purposes. Its your money, if they have a problem with this then look elsewhere.

Instructions - Ask for them before you buy, read through them VERY carefully to ensure they are complete and provide enough detail for someone at your skill level to successfully install the kit. If they don't again in writing state your concerns and agree upon a solution e.g. they will provide phone support and won't tire of you calling. With adequate instructions you wouldn't need to call for help so its not your issue.

Performance - Ask them if you can return the kit for a refund if it does not perform as advertised. If they are advertising zero backlash in all three axis get something that states if backlash is in excess of (x) you can either return the kit or they will resolve the issue. I paid about $1,000 for my Z axis kit, zero backlash ball screw setup. After I installed the kit I have 20 thousands of backlash that I'm told is my problem to resolve.

Time to Install - I'll set this expectation for you, installing one of these kits is no small task, expect it to take a few weeks to complete if you don't run into problems and want to do a decent job of it. Don't forget the wiring and electrical require serious time.

Electrical - Make sure you get something in writing on this, you don't want to get left holding a cnc mill with all the mechanicals installed and no support on connecting it to the drivers and power supplies.

great post MetDetect :) should help out someone out there :)

bytheway with your Z axis kit might think about buying .0001 larger balls and repacking the nut :) should take out the .0002
but your right this shouldnt be your problem :(

Here's another point of view for you to consider..........By posting your bad experiences but refusing to name the source, you've cast doubts on all the good folks out there who are not supplying poorly engineered or poorly fitting kits. Start-up or growing pains should be borne by the company, not by the customer. Psychology plays a big part here. It's obvious from all the problems you've listed that you've been given a royal screwing, yet you protect their identity. Why? I'll betcha its because they're "nice guys". Right? WRONG. A guy can have the personality of a jackass and the disposition of a rattlesnake, but if he delivers what he promises, who cares what he's like on a personal basis? You're not in the market to buy a friend. People who sell half-baked goods are much more aware of maintaining the "helpful" image than the average person is. It serves their purpose, which is twofold. One: Get the money and Two: Impress upon you how helpful and concerned we are about your problems in the hopes that you won't badmouth us and keep us from selling the same stuff to the next unsuspecting guy who happens along. As a final note, please be aware that all the parameters you set out above are useless when dealing with a scammer. No amount of paperwork can turn a thief into an honest man. You can rest assured that your willingness to keep the thief's identity secret will ultimately lead to some other member of this list going the same route and finding the same problems. Quite possibly a member who would have been more than willing to help you with any problem with which he could offer assistance. These guys you're dealing with ain't your friends.

Don't take this as a flame. It's just a straightforward statement of the facts.

MetDetect,

I have to agree with metlmunchr. Why don't you name the company, and at the same time describe both your positive and your negative experiences with them? This way the reader can make an informed decision if to buy from them or not.

Arvid

Ouch, metlmunchr, you're making to much sense for this late in the day. :)

Originally posted by arvidb
MetDetect,

This way the reader can make an informed decision if to buy from them or not.

Arvid

I wouldn’t put it that way; one persons experience in most cases will not deter the masses. But having the company read this thread may help them to react and correct the problem for the future.

Paul's on the right track, a blistering flame of the company would accomplish nothing plus this would be against the forum rules and the thread would just be deleted.

Lets see if the mill performs as advertised, if so I'll put the install behind me and move on a happy camper. Most of all I hope others who read this walk away better prepared to shop for kits and mills.

I know the company monitors these forums and I'd like to say that I hope they would consider the feedback so the next customer will have an improved experience but...I requested a refund for the missing bearings I had to purchase and received no reply and the bearings they said they shipped have still not arrived. I guess I'm getting the silent treatment.

well maybe a review done on the kit would be the best idea :)

show people the good and bad. let others reply. ect i know the more userreviews we have the better.

hello MetDetect.
I was wondering what was the hold up. The kit looked good sitting on the table, when you posted a pic of it. But it did look complicated.

Anyone who wants to know who the kit was bought from, can do a little detective work. Look at the mini mill page. Hope this is not going to get me in trouble.
I think the supplier should do there best to save there name.
I for one was looking at the same kit. But will wait to see how well Mets mill turns out.

Met can you post some more pics, and let us know how the mill works?
I hope it all works out well I know you spent a lot of money.

Good luck.

A full review will be forthcoming but here's a quick update:

First the mill is running pretty sweet right now and my concerns about how well it would perform are resolved. Bottom line, this thing is pretty cool.

I still have an issue with Z and we are going to try a 210 gecko on that axis due to a known issue with some motherboard/gecko/servo combinations.

I will soften my previous assessment of the kit quite a bit and give it to you straight. These mills vary from mill to mill and in my case we ran into fitting issues industrial hobbies had not seen before. So is it fair to expect a company to design for issues that are not known? Yes but only to a degree, its just poor luck that my mill fell outside even those allowed for variances. For example the top of my column was seriously not square to the table. IH uses angular bearings to allow for this but mine was so far off Z still got a bind in it when bolted down. We had to put a substancial wedge on one side to level it up, like .100, thats huge and the issue is the mill not the kit.

On part quality, IH offered to replace the two parts which were manufactured out of spec. On other parts not being square and to my satisfaction in finish, I have changed my mind. Not due to anything IH said but it just came to me this morning. These particular parts will not perform any better if they are perfectly square and have a nice finish cut so its not a performance issue. So really the question is how much do I want to pay for the kit? The kit is currently priced given amount of time thats required to manufacture it. At present some parts are parted off with the bandsaw and not always square. Some surfaces don't have a nice finish cut on them because they don't really require it. So the question is, how much more would I be willing to pay to have shiny square parts? The answer is, nada, I'd rather put that money into a coolant kit or some tooling right. So I guess I looked at this from a new perspective and changed my mind.

I finished testing and trying to troubleshoot the mill Sunday morning about 5am and sent a list of the issues to Industrial Hobbies via email. He called about 10:30am and we attempted to resolve the issues over the phone with minimal success. I think we were both tired of taking crap off this mill at this point ;) so later that afternoon he packed up his rig and drove 4.5 hours from Maine to my house in NY to do battle with this mill in person.

Details on this battle later but let me say this for now, based on what I saw when he was troubleshooting the mill, if you are like me e.g. I'm a pretty smart guy but know little about mills, the related software, and electronics then you will be wise to make sure the manufacturer has someone like Aaron at industrial hobbies who's been doing this stuff for a long time and knows this stuff inside and out, and who also has relationships with the related vendors like Gecko and Mach2 products.

Case in point, I fired up the mill, Y seemed to move pretty good but X sounded like it was about to bust a part off, being a newbie I thought the ball nut was spitting chunks of metal it sounds that bad, the preload is too tight, its jamming on the wiper, etc. Turns out that was not the case at all, all that racket was actually coming from the servo motor and the motor wasn't bad, it was the electronic signal the motor was receiving that was the cause, the motor was just reacting to a poor signal by starting/stopping and otherwise complaining.

I would not have thought a motor could make that kind of sound, I mean it spun then stoped dead like it jammed up, then spit, sputtered, forward a little more, then spun again until it jammped up again like it was driving down a gravel road. It had me thinking drive components not electrical signal.

Honestly I would have torn down X and loosened the preload and otherwise cussed the screw assembly trying to resolve this issue and would have accomplished nothing. We swapped out the gecko and presto it improved a lot, we eliminted a ground loop and all the remaining cross talk and odd behavior vanished, man the table was moving sweet then.

See my point, for people like me who dont' know much about this cnc stuff make sure the manufacturer does.

Thats all for now, a more indepth review with pics later.

Originally posted by MetDetect


He called about 10:30am and we attempted to resolve the issues over the phone with minimal success. I think we were both tired of taking crap off this mill at this point ;) so later that afternoon he packed up his rig and drove 4.5 hours from Maine to my house in NY to do battle with this mill in person.



Man that is want I call service! That is going ABOVE and Beond to make it right. :)

MetDetect: Good news!

Having just gone through all of this myself doing a retrofit I can honestly say I wouldn't get into making kits for all of the reasons you list!

The "variation" between machines can be quite large and designing parts to work in all cases would be difficult.

I read with interest the thread on the Barracuda and a few other threads on things that members think are way overpriced and feel they could make cheaper/better, this is all well and good until you run into a machine like yours that is "off a little".

Typically if you are offering a budget priced kit you have done the best to keep it as close to cost as you can with a small margin for profit as no one works free, If as in your case the manufacturer has to do a house call to rectify an issue there goes that "profit".

I have to commend Aaron and IH for giving this type of service!! :).

To anyone that thinks they can "manufacture" cheaper than what's offered by all means go for it you have a ready market but don't make the mistake of underpricing your time as one small "issue" can end up costing you money.

Gas: $76.81
Tolls: $12:90
Munchies and smokes for a 562 mile road trip: $14.32
Making a customer happy at 3:15am: Priceless

He really is happy in the photo, well at least as happy as anyone can be in the wee hours.

The technical side of the story is simple.
Weird stuff happens.

As pointed out, the mechanicals were fine; the column was a fair bit off on the top, but nothing that a shim couldn’t fix.

On the tougher troubleshooting side, was the electronics/computer.

Two Gecko’s are going back to Gecko for post-mortems.

The ground loop problem was seriously freaky.

The computer/parallel port is still an iffy situation, and a different parallel port expansion card is going to be tried, and I will post the results of that.

It seems as the Mach2 / Gecko 201 issue is popping up like a virus and needs to be looked at more in general. (To solve this problem I already have a Gecko 210 being sent to replace the 201).

Enhancements to our products/services:

Very shortly we will be introducing the HotWire kit, which will completely wire the mill.
(Wiring was not the problem here and MetDetect did a very good job, but this way everyone will be on the same page).

We will also mulling over the idea of offering a Crash Kit which will be everything necessary to trouble shoot the electronics.

It will include (more or less):
Hand held oscilloscope (like mine)
Digital multi meter or 2 with clip leads and everything
Complete set of Geckos for your machine
A bunch of discrete components, (resistors, diodes, stuff like that)
All the little things that I just reach into my electronic tackle box to get

This way, we (the customer and myself) both know the schematics, the wiring and what signal/voltage should be where; and we can walk through a problem over the phone.

The price of the Crash Kit will be basically the deposit for the test equipment and everything and will be refunded upon return.

If a customer needs to swap something like a Gecko from the kit, there is no charge as those are covered by warranty from me; and the discrete components and the other little things (unless you just keep everything) are free.

On the lighter side of this problem:

I was an electronic warfare tech in the Army for 6 years, and without a doubt have seen some really weird stuff. From an engineer side, you want to find the root cause, from a practical side, you want to solve the problem and call it quits. That’s why a tech will just say “Stuff Happens”, they understand (or should) that searching for every possible anomaly could take weeks or months and will often lead to an unsolvable conclusion.

That being said, here is my personal “Stuff Happens” opinion:

The walls of MetDetects basement are painted gray. It was fairly warm down there, which is odd for basements. I think there is a mis-guided cellular tower that is turning the entire room into a BIG microwave oven.

Least that’s my two cents.

We are Industrial Hobbies

The giant microwave theory is interesting Aaron but I'm betting it was the glob of loboster claw I noticed fused to the gecko 320, wonder how that got there on a kit from Maine! :D

I recommend the electrical kit route for peole like myself who can wire a 110 outlet but have minimal electrical experience. First you know the cost up front (I lost count how many trips I made to Grainger, Lowes, and Radioshack and I don't have the nerve to add up all the sales slips). Second I had quite a bit of fun assembling the electrical but trying to figure out the electrical was not much fun, especially when you consider how much money could go up in smoke if you screw it up. A kit would eliminate the figuring it out part and let you get on with the fun stuff.

Next pics but we'll start a new thread for that.