Well I decided to take the plunge on a haas mill after owning 2 fadals. I am keeping one of them (fadal) and want/need another mill with a tool changer. I am stuck deciding between a tm1 p and a vf 1

The tm 1p has more x travel and the vf 1 has more y travel. The smaller tool changer is not an issue neither is the rapid speed.

Does anyone have any advice to shed on this. I machine 90 % allum. and a little stainless. It is going in my garage so if I went with the tm I would probably opt for single phase.

Thanks'

Mark

If you go for the VF series, I'd say to go for the VF-2. It's the same casting, same cabinet, same footprint and 10 more inches of travel. In fact, if I could do it over, I'd get the extended Y axis VF-2. Damn, that thing came out 6 months after I bought mine. :(

You probably already know that you have to get the umbrella tool changer (side mount won't fit through a garage door).

They also have to take off the spindle sheet metal and the Z-axis servo to get the VF under a standard garage header. Not a bit deal. The HFO has to set up the 'installation' for the same day as the delivery.

You can get the 10K spindle in the VF and if you're absolutely sure you don't need the low speed, you can get the 15K spindle.

Of course this all assumes that you have the need for higher machining speeds. The TM-1P is a great value. If I could do it over again though, I'd have gone bigger than what I bought, not smaller.

My $0.02. :D

Edit: I just saw that you're in Studio City. You'll probably deal with Mike Steinbock. He's done the 'garage' thing a number of times. No sweat, really.

thats right, I spoke to mike today and he sounds like a really nice guy. Where are you located. That sounds like a good setup although a little pricey for me this is not my primary business.

Thanks

Mark

I'm up in Palmdale. Mike's got a number of customers with machines in their garages. He won't steer you wrong but he really does need to know exactly what you want to do with the machine.

He'll make sound recommendations on things he thinks you need and he'll steer you away from things you don't. Here's the catch: he's really low pressure so if he suggests something (positive or negative), listen and ask 'why'. I can't say much good about most sales experiences but he's top shelf.

I also really, really like the Renishaw probing option. Worth every penny. I have it because Mike suggested it as a "really good deal" just before we wrote the contract. It gave me added options that are bundled with it (VQC, Rotation & Scaling and Macros). Those options soften the blow of the probing cost.

Thanks Greg, what machine(s) did you use before you got your haas?

were you able to work the price a bit or was the price you quoted pretty firm?

Thanks

Mark

I'm almost totally new to this. I had some basic G-code, 20 years ago on little benchtop lathes that ran from an Apple IIe. So I knew the basics but I had no past experience with other controls.

On the pricing: no, they're pretty straight forward on the pricing. What you see on the website is the basic price structure.

The place where the pricing changes is when you get into "Value Option Packages". They have some basic sets of options which can cut down on the final, optioned price of the machine. It's just like buying a car with just AC and power windows or getting a 'luxury package.' Mike will probably suggest different levels of option 'packages' based on the options you already want.

I don't know exactly what you want the machine for but if you think your needs will grow, I'd try to at least consider a stripped VF-2 or VF-2YT: no chip auger, no 4th axis.

Add the 'hard' options (things you can't add later) like the spindle speed you want, gearbox or not and memory (I think adding it later requires a board upgrade). Consider the Renishaw probing.

Compare that to the TM-1P. Look at the spindle speeds, rigidity and upgrade path. Decide if you're going to be making money with it or if its one-off parts to support a hobby or prototyping business. Make your decision from there.

Lots of guys in here like the TM-1P. It is a bargain for an enclosed machine but since I plan to eventually go 'production' I preferred the VF-2.

if you are concerned over what machine to get. ask you HFO to do a demo cut on each machine in stanless you will see a big difference. but it sound like you are limited to single phase so you may already have the answer to what machine you can get. the bigger the better

well I am not limited to single phase as I could run a phase converter its just that single phase is easier and cheaper. a 20 hp 3 phase converter is around $3600 USD. I would like the VF 1 0r 2 but realistically the tm1p is probably enough machine for what I will use it for although the last thing I want is to buy a machine an a year later wish I would have bought more machine.

Mark

I totally forgot to address power:
There are a number of resellers on eBay that have rotary phase converters. I bought a 30HP for about $1500. It required 80 amp, 220V--about the same as a spa. I think it's done with 6 gauge all the way from the panel.

The in-rush current is a PITA. It was regularly blowing breakers. I had an 80 amp that kept popping when I'd start the phase converter. It turned out that the 70 amp I bought was actually less sensitive so I installed that. She only pops the breaker, very very rarely. THIS IS THE PHASE CONVERTER ONLY. The mill has never blown the breaker.

It has to do with the mass of that 30 HP RPC motor being suddenly connected to the incoming wires. It wants to start NOW. I think the breakers can't discern the difference between starting that motor and tapping the wires to ground. :D

And for reference: my new TL-1 is connected to 220V single phase. It's popping the 50 amp breaker 2 out of 3 times when I try to start it. Yes, that's the size they recommend. Yes, it's got ample wire gauge.

I think household breakers aren't used to seeing the sudden inrush currents that industrial machines subject them to.

In the case of the TL-1, it's not a motor starting up but the DC power supply is juicing up a considerable bank of capacitors. I think the breaker sees them as a 'short' for just an instant and that's enough to trip things.

I mention it because I believe the TM-1 is going to have an identical power system to the TL-1.

you my want to get a slow blow breaker or a new switch panel for the convertor alone
with a slow blow fuse before the phase convertor or try and get a soft start control.

Yeah, I considered the soft-start thing but the RPC is almost trouble free now. The only remaining problem is the TL-1 and I'd have to swap out the whole sub panel to get a different type of breaker. :(

I'm probably going to move up to a 60 or 70 amp breaker. The wire could theoretically handle it and the TL has an internal breaker anyway.

call an electrian there are ways around this problems moving up breaker sizes will void your warenty and can cause problems that are expencive to fix. if somthing gose wrong dew to power isusse. you may also be voiding you house insurance depending on the area you live in and the bylaws.
to save 500- 1000 bucks could cost you 10 times that. ask the electrian about a fused switch panel run of the break panel easy fix not to expencive if you can do it
just my 2 cents

to save 500- 1000 bucks could cost you 10 times that. ask the electrian about a fused switch panel run of the break panel easy fix not to expencive if you can do it
just my 2 cents
Very good points. Mine is almost worked out though.

I brought it up so Mark would understand why he might still expect problems with a single phase machine. It's very alluring to think that you'll just connect it and have no problems.

A phase converter often scares people away from three-phase machines. I want him to know that both roads can be tough and might involve an electrician and additional panels or provisions.

Thanks Greg, that is a very good point. Its probably worth staying away from single phase because of the power loss factor also.

thanks

mark

Very good points. Mine is almost worked out though.

I brought it up so Mark would understand why he might still expect problems with a single phase machine. It's very alluring to think that you'll just connect it and have no problems.

A phase converter often scares people away from three-phase machines. I want him to know that both roads can be tough and might involve an electrician and additional panels or provisions.

Unless you are doing this in town you might ask you local power company if they will bring in 3-phase power for you. I thought I was stuck with buying a rotary converter form my new VF-2 but I made a 5-min call to PGE and they said "No problem" So in short I had three phase power put into my shop for free. I just had to pay to have a new meter panel and inside my shop wiring done. PGE said they dont charge for poles, wires or the hook up because they want you to use their power. So you might check.

Thanks Greg, that is a very good point. Its probably worth staying away from single phase because of the power loss factor also.
I wouldn't let that sway you. If you go TM-1, just stick with the single phase power. The machine runs entirely on rectified DC. The spindle amplifier turns the DC back into AC to run the spindle. The big capacitors in the DC power supply fill in the gaps where AC voltage crosses zero. The spindle doesn't know one way or the other.

But if you're giving any thought at all to a VF series, you'll obviously need the phase converter. The VF machines also run internally on rectified 325V DC but the additional horsepower requires three phases to keep the DC bus voltage stable.

Between the two, the TM-1 is going to use much less power: both because it's lower horsepower and because you're not running a giant RPC to generate the missing leg.

a 20 hp 3 phase converter is around $3600 USD
Sorry, Mark. I missed this. You can get them a lot cheaper than that. I got mine from a place in Phoenix for about $1500, delivered.

Here are a couple that are similar in price:
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&rd=1&item=250199828889
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&rd=1&item=260195850508

Hi Donkey Hotey,

Glad you brought the subject up about the TM-1P and running on single phase. That is exactly what the HAAS Service Guy told me and why I elected to run my new machine on 220 Single Phase.

P.S. News Flash: My machine is being delivered on New Years Eve and the local HAAS Factory Outlet is going to do the start-up on January 7, 2008. The fun is about to begin. Ha Ha

Bought a used copy of ONECNCXR2 Milling (Advantage Level) CAD/CAM software. Yes, they allow transfer of ownership and have a great forum that provides help for CNC newbies like me. The guy I bought it from was extremely helpful and gave me a GREAT deal.

John

Hey John, that's good news that it's finally coming.

I don't know if you surfed the rest of the thread but I'm having problems with my TL-1 popping the 50 amp breaker on startup (on the CB panel, not on the machine). It takes resetting once or twice before it sticks.

I think it takes that to get a charge going in the power supply capacitors. After that, it starts up fine. Shutting down and powering back up will not blow the breaker again until it's been shut down for awhile.

I'm interested to see how your power works out on single phase. If you can get slow-blow breakers, do it. I didn't have a choice with my panel.

Hi Donkey Hotey,

I currently have a spare 50 AMP breaker in my panel. I will talk to my electrician about the slow blow breaker.

When I talked to my local HAAS Service Technician he said that I needed a 50 AMP 220 Volt Single Phase breaker.

I was visiting a friend the other day that has a TM-1P and noticed that the I.D. plate on the machine said it was rated at 40 AMPS at 220 volts Single Phase.

Sounds a little confusing. I will let my electrician sort all that stuff out.

I will let you know how the 50 AMP breaker performs in my application.

You might want to put a AMP Probe on the incoming wiring to the machine and see what it is actually drawing at startup. You "may" have a defective/weak breaker. Just something you might want to look at. As I mentioned I am "not" the electrician. Ha Ha

John

Yeah, John, 40 amps sounds about right. The breaker on the machine is to protect the machine. The breaker in the panel is to protect the wire between the panel and the machine. It can be rated higher, as long as the wire's up to it.

I think the TL-1 is rated the same way: 40 on the machine, 50 at the panel. It's blowing it regularly on startup. I can't really measure it because it's only for an instant. My ammeter can't even get a reading that fast.

Haas doesn't say anything about 'slow blow' but that's what is clearly needed here.

And yes, I've had problems with 'weak' breakers. As I think I mentioned, I have a 70 amp breaker that was less prone to popping than the 80 amp that I installed trying to fix it (on the VF-2).

Home centers won't take back circuit breakers and I got tired of buying $25 breakers just on the 'chance' that they'd work at the rated current. Luckily, I've used up one or two of those breakers on softer-start devices so it wasn't money flushed down the toilet. :)

A really crude way to minimise popping breakers with a large starting surge is to use wire that has a current below the breaker capacity; not only crude but dangerous and illegal (Don't do this at home :)). I discovered this by accident with a large manual turret lathe that had a maximum operating current draw below 30 amps and a starting surge in excess of 250 amps when it was started in a high gear. I used to have to start it in low gear then come up to speed in a couple of steps through the pre-selector gear box until I was at full speed. Then I moved the machine and had to run a very long wire from the panel and bingo I could start in the higher gears; and it was possible to hear the wires thrashing about inside the conduit because their magnetic field was so strong during the starting surge.

071230-0946 EST USA

Donkey Hotey:

What brand of breaker are you using?

I would suggest Sq-D QO breakers. The QO breaker is probably one of the best available. These are inherently slowblow because they are thermal. However, for very high overloads, 10,000 A, their design provides some magnetic effect. This magnetic effect occurs about 6 to 18 times the 50 A rating. Varies somewhat with other ratings. One second tripping will occur within the band of 5 to 12 times 50 A, and 100 sec within 1.2 to 1.7 times 50 A.

You were correct in your statement that the main panel breaker is there to protect the wiring and not the load at the end of the wire. The load has to provide its own protection. However, there is some need to appropriately size the main panel breaker to the load. It makes no sense to have a 200 A circuit supplying a 100 W lamp that has no protection at the input to a #18 wire cord.

I would suggest in a small shop you want to use a separate main panel breaker and circuit for each different machine. This would mean any 1 HP or larger machine would have its own circuit.

There are inovative ways you could limit inrush current if it was really necessary.

.

Well, we've hijacked another thread. :D

Yes, everything is on dedicated breakers. The main panel is Cutler Hammer and the subpanel is SquareD (HOM series IIRC). I'm going to monkey with it today.

The wiring to the subpanel is sized for 80A. I've got a 60A on it now. The subpanel only carries the TL-1 and a 3hp knee mill.

I always wire larger than I need and fuse for less than I need. I think that using up some of the unnecessary margin will fix it.

The point to all of this was that the 50A recommended by Haas might not be a slam-dunk installation.

maybe hijacked but all very interesting. Thanks fellas.

happy holidays to all

Mark

071230-1553 EST USA

Are your breakers Homelite or QO. Since you mentioned HOM I suspect these are the Homlite and my feeling is that these are inferior to QO.

At our shop we have a fairly stiff power source, about 200 KVA worth of transformers supplying a number of different main breaker boxes. The main box supplying the the CNC machines is 200 A 3 phase at 240 leg to leg, and all QO breakers. Our wire runs are about 50 to 100 ft. I will have to check, but I believe the breakers to the machines are 50 or 60 A 3 phase and these never trip under normal conditions. However, when the northeast US blackout occurred several years ago some may have tripped and we lost fuses in some of the HAAS machines. We have VF2s and VF3s and an SL20.

Also I failed to mention that there are counterfit QO breakers in some distribution channels.

See http://www.mikeholt.com/newsletters.php?action=display&letterID=487

.

I've got a TL-1 that runs off a 40A single phase circut. It never trips the breaker. Not even when the spindle was stalled trying to cut a big acme thread. It probably helps that the voltage at the shop is 250v though :)

The haas literature says the machine runs on 208-230v 3 phase or 240v single phase. Since our voltage is 250 I wired the machine up for single phase. Maybe your lower voltage has something to do with your breaker problem and you should be running off 3 phase with a phase converter.

The $3600 phase converter might have been a phase perfect.

My voltage is a solid 245V.

I was incorrect. I had a 50A in the main panel, feeding a 50A in the subpanel (I never run the knee mill and TL-1 at the same time).

I upped the main and the sub to 60A today. It fired right up on the first try and I thought I had it beaten. Then I shut it down for three hours and it popped the breaker on restart. :( It's gettin' better though.

And I made the T-nut for my new/used Dorian CXA toolpost. No more KDK for me :D

I looked at our breakers and wiring today. This is all 3 phase.

The breakers for each machine are located in a branch box on the wall near the machines. One box with two breakers, one breaker per machine, feeds two machines and the other box has 5 breakers and feeds 3 cnc machines plus some other things. From these boxes the 1 way wire length is between 30 and 50 feet. The wire is #8. The breakers are all 40 A for the VF-3s and SL-20, and the newer VF-2. The 1993 VF-2 has a 30 A breaker.

For the so called 20 HP units the peak initial inrush current to charge the capacitors should not be much different for single vs three phase. This is determined by source voltage and impedance. The duration might be somewhat longer for single phase, but may have more to do with total internal impedance of the source than anything else.

In a sense your problem seems unlikely. Is there any possibility you are using a GFI breaker?

.

Nope, they're standard breakers. I'm not terribly worried about it right now. The Cutler Hammer CH series breakers aren't as common as their BH series. I've been checking the local Home Depot and Lowes. They occasionally get them. When they do, I'll pick up a new 60A and give that a go.