Here are the programs I have found so far.

Mastercam $BIG MONEY
Visual Mill 5.0 $4000
RamsGold $1095

Most software products I have found that list 4th Axis are "indexed" which is not really 4 axis machining.

Any one else have any to add?

Most software products I have found that list 4th Axis are "indexed" which is not really 4 axis machining.

When do you need 4 axis interpolation?

My knowledge of the different types of 4th axis machining is limited, so could you give me an example of what you mean.

Basically I want to mill 3d organic objects like a human head or something that would other wise be impractical to position and reposition manually. After speaking with a engineer at a software company today whos program only did indexing, he explained that I needed a program that did continuous 4th axis machining.
So the side mounted rotary table is constantly being moved to allow the cutting bit to enter at the most opportune angles for fastest and most accurate cutting.

Hi,

Some link to powerfull Cam software, Actually we use Surcam in 4 1/2 axis at my work. But it could do 5 axis like most of the one list below, but it's high $$$.


SurfCam (http://www.surfware.com/)
TopSolid/Cam (http://www.topsolid.com/us/)
Esprit (http://www.dptechnology.com/)
Gibbs Cam (http://www.gibbscam.com/)
EdgeCam (http://www.edgecamforsolidworks.com/)
SolidCam (http://www.solidcam.com/)
CamWorks (http://www.teksoft.com/camworks.htm)

CrazyRonny

Deskproto, http://www.deskproto.com But I think it only uses 3 axis at a time, either X,Y,Z, or X,Z,A. But it does do continuous rotary motion. Check out OneCNC.

And this free one, http://www.rainnea.com/cnc.htm

I use Visual Mill 5. For cutting a shape using the 4th axis indexing works fine. The only time i have ever used full 4th axis is with following splines on a model with a bit. Like spiral columns. Would like to find a better solution but you get what you can afford.

Donny

Originally posted by replicapro
My knowledge of the different types of 4th axis machining is limited, so could you give me an example of what you mean.


I don't see why you couldn't mill a 3d object (head, table leg etc.) using indexing. I can rotate an object in CAD/CAM and program to mill a 15 degree area in 3 axis using a mask or boundry, then index the horizontal rotary 15 degrees and mill another zone. The indexing can be in the g code.

I can't imagine any milling motion that would require four axis interpolation at one time.

If the program could write the code for you with some mouse clicks, that would be slick. There are work arounds that let you use most programs regardless of whether they are set up for 4 axis. It does require some strategic planning.

Replicapro, if your email will accept a 2 or 3Mb PDF file, I'd be pleased to send you an e-book I have written on rotary 4th axis milling and scanning. You wanna do a human head? I did an entire archbishop. Managing undercuts and other hidden surfaces is covered by multiple cuts, using only 3 axes (X-Rotary-Z) simultaneously, but adopting fresh Y locations to cut again and again using fresh toolpaths from fresh scan data. Actually easier than it sounds. Regards,
Terrence

thats very cool, id like to see it.
rob@replicaprops.com

Milling a flame design into a custom motorcycle handgrip would require 4 axis simultaneous interpolation. There are thousands of different parts of all kinds made every day which require continuous contouring capability on the 4th axis, even though the machine may only be using linear motion in two axes while the coordinated rotation of the part takes place. Unless the part is faceted (has faces laying on specific angular planes) indexing is a poor substitute for continuous rotary motion.

There ya go Rob, it's in your email inbox now
Terrence

metlmuncher, ya got THAT right! Especially in artistic work such as carvings, when they are translated to digital form by scanning and milling, it's essential to have enough degrees of freedom to reach surfaces obstructed by other parts of the object. Theoretically you could use an infinite number of degrees of freedom, which none of us has. That's why additive processes like stereolithography and laser fusion etc exist. But those of us who admire subtractive process (CNC machining) cuz we like to choose our materials, our surface finish and our size, need to stretch the limits of the axes we have! Three axis simultaneous in X-Rotary-Z plus Y-incrementing for new data is one nice way to stretch the limits, for example to do your cycle grips. Typically, a total of three scans and three milling passes on different offset locations is verrrry near to perfection, for artistic objects like those.

Originally posted by keithorr
I don't see why you couldn't mill a 3d object (head, table leg etc.) using indexing. I can rotate an object in CAD/CAM and program to mill a 15 degree area in 3 axis using a mask or boundry, then index the horizontal rotary 15 degrees and mill another zone. The indexing can be in the g code.

I can't imagine any milling motion that would require four axis interpolation at one time.

If the program could write the code for you with some mouse clicks, that would be slick. There are work arounds that let you use most programs regardless of whether they are set up for 4 axis. It does require some strategic planning.


I made some parts this year that needed all four axes moving at once. I argued with the customer for a bit until I convinced myself it was needed. It was a set of segments for an internal barrel cam. The segments formed a barrel cam of about 40" in diameter. I had to rotate them on a 9" rotary. Since the cut for a follower bearing has to be cut "normal" to the motion path, and the 40" segment could not be swung from a 20" radius, the toolpath had to translate about the axis of the rotary, while staying true to the axis of the larger segement.
Imagine cutting square threads on a crank pin of a crankshaft, and you will see the motion. I generated the motion from a two dimensional layout of the cam profile. Using variables in the control itself, it calculated the Y,Z and A offset, the X offset came direct from the cam profile.
Fun to watch it run.
Most SW pacakages only do a 4th axis indexing, not true 4th axis motion. One SW vendor was looking at the problem for the customer, and decided it needed the full 5 axis package to program the part. The quote from them for the package to generate that motion was way more than the job cost to do with trig. in the controls variable programming.

Pete

Hehehe Pete, you remember a few years back, when Toshiba got into trouble with the US Government for selling technology to the (former) Soviet Union? It was (n)-axis CNC simultaneous interpolation controllers to cut the dreadful helical surfaces of silent-running sub propellers.
Terrence

c-c-boy how does one go about getting that e-book. I am in great need of that kind of knowledge. Can you tell us what kind of cam program you used?


"I can't imagine any milling motion that would require four axis interpolation at one time".

Here's one for you. Try checkering a set of 1911 Colt style grips that have an ever changing surface radius and keep the cutter bit perpendicular to the surface. I'm not saying it can't be done with x,z and and rotational axis but I think you will have to have the y also.

Mike

Mike;

Good example

I can imagine some kind of 5 axis solution where you have two rotational axis for the tool head. The cam software can figure out the tool normals (perpendiculars) to the surface while XYZ movements are made beneath it, if the tool tip is reckoned to be the focus of the tool head rotation.

But I think that simultaneous XYZ+A would be a nightmare because of multiple solutions for the same path. A point of reference needs to be maintained for any coordinate system to work, but I don't see how this would be possible in XYZ+A movements, because you would have both Polar and Cartesian systems working at the same time, but constantly shifting relative position. My brain gets sore just trying to imagine the mathematical contortions :D

Keith you can tell I have at least been thinking about it!:D

Hu this is one that I really believe I can do but I have not had the time to work on it. I have 4 high speed air spindles with floating tools that might make this a bit easier...?? Sorry about not mentioning that in my example!:D Actually I think this can be drawn in 3d with arcs representing the v-grooves running diagonal along the changing surfaces and a reference being centerline along the length of the grip, y axis for me, and z reference would be....hmmm, I'm gonna have to think on that one a little while. Narrow minded as I am I can only see one reference for the z and that would have to be the bottom surface of the grip.

I'll surface my drawing tonight and post it so maybe someone more experienced can tell us how it's done.

Mike

c-c-cncboy I'm interested in that file too.

Hey guys I am not trying to hijack this thread but I really feel this fits here best. If it is not agreeable mods can move it!:D

Here is a jpg of my rhino file of 1/2 set of 1911 grips. I will try to have the checkered grooves on by tomorrow night.
I have never attempted anything like that in Rhino or anything else for that matter.

Mike

I think you should be able to machine a checker pattern on that with X Z and A. The rotation of the 4th axis creates the 'Y" component of the path movement. Drilling the holes in it would not require the 4th axis to be functional, it would simply be locked.

OneCNC 2003 's 4 axis wrap module might work for something like that. The trick is that you have to "unwrap" the surface model when you draw it out. Think of cutting a toilet paper center tube lengthwise and then unrolling it flat onto the table. The 4th axis wrap module essentially reverses this process by taking the flattened surface and creating a cylindrical surface out of it by substituting A (or B) axis values for the Y axis component on your cad screen. In OneCNC 2003, your "flattened model" does not have to have a constant Z component, that is, it can be a 3d surface that you wish to wrap.

Hu the holes are actually done on the original machineing (sp??) operation. I let the cnc do the outside profile of the grip as well as drill the holes from the back side. The hole on the face side are a hand operation but now that I have a controller that can do a back bore I may have to give that operation over to the cnc. It sure would save time.

So what you are saying if I understand this right is: draw the surface as if it were flat, lay the lines for the tool path on it and then the rotation of the a axis actually creates the needed y movement while the x and z axis creates the length and z height of the cut? Laymen's terms of course.:) Am I close?

Mike

Yes, that's the way it works.

The substitution of A for Y is done by using a simple scaling factor in the software that converts the linear Y movement into a rotary movement for you. That factor is 360/2Pi (which so happens to be 1 radian). Thus on a 1" radius cylinder, a movement of 1" in Y (on the unrolled surface) will translate into a output command of A57.2958 (degrees).

Depending on what software you are using, you might be able to configure your post to output an "A" in place of your Y cad output, and also scale the Y axis amounts by 57.2958

But maybe that's more than you wanted to know :D

turmite and broken003 - and anybody else who is impelled to 4-axis solutions - yeh the book can be emailed, but it's ~2 or ~3Mb file. Mail me directly and assure me your email will accept files that large and I'll go to bat for ya. The math difficulties of 4 axis simultaneous (yeh you DO need that from time to time) and hence the software costs, are astronomical - that's why I developed my methodology, and it works for nearly all situations. So message me at cadcamcncboy@hotmail.com, maybe tell me the class of work you do (want to do ...) and I'll respond. You could add some pics if ya want. The book is around 50 pages and chock full of digital pics of rotary 3D scanning and rotary 3D milling. Regards, Terrence

Oh, and I am out of your time zone so if I don't come back right away go easy on me. Terrence

replicapro, why cant you get software that supports 3d machineing and do indexing to move around the head and surface and blend.

But as you put mastercam at high you want to do High end work .but you are able to do what you want with a true surface model.
We call is Rotary4ax for doing what you are asking.

If you just wanted to do 4th indexing the price could be alott lower then our level3 of MC

To be honest I am confused as to what I need software wise. I guess the only real test is to set my machine up and get each program to cut the same part. Im sure after I see the final results it will help me make up my mind.

One vendor has told me their software will not do what I need and they recommended I seek out continuouse 4th axis which led me to this topic to begin with. Now everyone is saying that with some creative programing indexing can do the same as the continuouse 4th axis cutting. So the reality falls into the reality so to speak.

Here is a question were are your models comeing from and in what format?
I would like to see the shap you are making.Do you have a screen shot at least or send a model.

jsut some thoughts to help with the software I sell.

Right now im designing all my models in Lightwave3d. The Lightwave format is then imported into Rhino which I then can send it to any format I want. I should be building in rhino but I have been using lightwave for so many years its tough to switch.

If you look at my website www.replicaprops.com you will see the main item I want to make is my Voyagers Omni. Currently I have these being cast from Brass at a foundry, but I have made changes to the design and I refuse to send the files out to an expensive machine shop again who sits on the job for 9 months and then triples the bill at the last moment.

Ok a fw years back I was asked about some programming and design for the Drak omni part you have shown.
there must be more people doing this one.
So far I do not see any thing that would need a 4th axis at this time.
I grew up with the industry with all the movies stuff around the house.

Have you gotton any bidds from other foundrys on the omni? But I can see having your own cnc and makeing them from a solid at home.

It was mentioned already, but you really should take a look at the CNCtoolkit.
Home page - http://www.rainnea.com/cnc.htm


The reason this might interest you is that it is based on a functionality in 3sMAX/ or it's free version Gmax, which allows you to extrude a spline perpendicular to a surface.

Rather than an engineering software, GMAX and 3DMax are graphic arts tools, and therefore ideal for modelling heads etc.

Edited by Cadcam .
Sorry had to remove the link to the other user group on another board due to the Rules on CNCzone.