Am I the only one who can't seem to get financing for a cnc Router???

I have been to several banks and they all say the same thing NO!!(nuts)

I need about $30,000 for a cnc router. I am a 5 year old business with annual sales of $130,000.

I am only a one person shop with about $80,000 current debt.

My shop costs $63,000 annually.

I live off of $500.00 a month or $6,000 a year payroll. I have no home or, vehicle payments, medical problems, or dependents.

What is sending the bankers into a panic and run away from me?

I can try a leasing company they look at equipement differently than a bank but they rip you off so bad.

A 30K leased will cost me 42K in 5 years,
the interest lost to them is half of another cnc machine!!

What have you all done to get your equipement?

Thank you

Your in 80k in, and a high risk to the bank. The bank looks at if they give you 30k, and you don't pay them, what will they get for the machine if they have to sell it?
We just purchased a new Hass , we have perfect credit, have money in the bank, pull down alot of money ever year in sales, and the bank still wanted to see some money down. We put 20% and no questions asked period by the bank, loan was done. Bottom line is, the bank wants to see you comit to them, they will go along with you. Very rarely will the bank go 100% on the loan.
We could have got the loan with 0 down, But the bank wanted to see 5 years of taxe returns, and company profit and losses, so they wanted to dig deep, really deep. I was told by the guy that made our loan, that alot of loans on machines go into default, and the bank is at a loss.
Your 30k router is now worth 15k to the bank on the street, if you they have to sell it.

Good luck.

I put up my $13,000 cd's as collarteral and I have $7,000 in roth iras at that bank but they won't use them as colateral.
I also have $3,000 in mutual funds.
that is 23K

should I cash out of this bank pay the penalties and put 20K toward my 28K router then I only have to come up with 8K more?

He asked me if he could put a lean on my business I also have a net worth of $70K but that is in a perfect world where they can sell all my stuff a a good price to get there money back.

a lease company does not ask to many questions. but it will cost me $8,600 in interest for my 28K lease to onw payments.

Kustom Koncepts

That's a tough one. I have a completely different philosophy in business, and it comes from one of my bosses who also happens to be the step-father of my ex-gf. Buy when you can afford it, work it til it breaks, never buy on credit. Ever. That way when times are tough, you can still make it through because you owe no one.

I have a car loan and a home loan. I'm working a second job to pay off the car as quickly as possible and pad my savings. My home loan will be paid off in 15 years instead of 30 because I make bi-monthly payments and drop my profit-sharing and tax returns into my principal.

I am starting a business and am purchasing all my equipment as I am able. I know that it's tough to realize that you could make a LOT more money with the equipment, but that's ONLY when times are good. When times get slow, that payment is a liability.

yeah I know I really want this machine as I try to keep growing and diversifing.

I will be 28 years old in febuary, I should be much farther in life than I am, I started KK in college at age 20.

the last 5 years of doing this full time I have had a growth of 20% to 30% in sales and a 5% to 10% less in cost of goods sold.

but I seem to spend and add overhead that keeps me on a growth but also on the edge. I had $870 in the bank today with $5,600 in bills in 10 days. with $5,000 in recivables.

Gut check time, I kill myself but it is like alcoholism I run right on the edge. (I quit drinking 7years ago)

15 years ago. now we can get down to business

back soon cabnet

Cabnet I think you know a little more about my situation and you also understand what real life is like for most of us.

No directed toward you WYLD but I would have to say that someone who says only buy stuff with cash and not on credit have the cash to do that in the first place!!!

there is a large steel supplier here 100,000 sq ft 150 employees strong, he says that everything was bought with cash, building, overhead cranes, semis, fork lifts ect.

so what he was a millionare before starting that so yeah he can pay cash for it all but how about the mass majority of us.

There is no chance with me being like that. I grew up in a trailer house and my parents are still in the same trailer after 25 years, My parents are blue colar workers, and I will never even have 30K laying in the bank cash to get this cnc.

People who where born rich or have inheritance can buy every thing straight up cash and never need a loan.

anyone who says money can't buy happiness has never been broke!

The economy looking at a resession isn't making my gut feel much better nor is it for my banker when the banks have taken a huge loss in the housing sector, that is also a reason I feel that the bank will not give me this loan.

Kustom Koncepts

I am an Army vet. I too was an alcoholic. Been sober now for 6 years, 3 months and 3 days. I know how that goes.

As for being rich, I am far from it. I managed to save $20,000 while in the army. I delivered pizzas at night when I could and used that for play money. The rest of my paycheck I put in savings & cds. Me and 5 buddies pooled our money, resources & talents to start a restaurant. It was tough going for the first six months, but between word of mouth and hard work we made it. I sold the majority of my interest in the restaurant (we now have 6) and earn a small, but steady income from that. I work as a machinist for a local shop. Well, technically, I am the shop. I have two lathes and a mill. They brought me on board because my ex's dad had enough confidence in my abilities to help them out. Now stuff that used to go out to other shops is handled in house. I make a decent living from that. My house cost me $78,500, purchased on a sub-prime loan. It has 1200 sq/ft with an attached garage. Far from pimpin or luxurious, but it suits my needs. I drive a 2004 Toyota Corolla. No rims. I live simply, but whenever I have a big enough chunk of money I buy equipment. My garage is nicer than my entire house.

I still deliver pizzas at night. Who can say no to an hourly wage and cash tips? I average $35 for 3 hrs in tips. Enough to live off of and have some pocket money. My day job pays the bills and the rest goes to savings or cds. I also attend night courses at the local community college on my own dime. I use my ACF/GI Bill to help support my hobbies.

I am 28 and have more than my parents. I hope to be able to help them out when they need it.

I understand what it's like. I just have to have patience and ride this out til I see my opportunity, just as I did with my restaurant.

I'm sure that you can too...

lease one major step in my growth, my edgebander yes i put 5000.00 down
on 24000.00 and interest on a lease is comparable. my only rule was this,
that my payment be manageable in the worst of times. sure i paid a little more. but the money that machine made us is far greater. self employment is a risk. like you i have been self employed all my working life. i do not reccomend it to anyone. i have survived all that has come my way reccessions or not. banks do not understand equipment nor what to do if somthing goes wrong. it does not surprise me that they wont play.

lease companies know where to market the machines if they have to take them back, they are not crooks just specialist in the equipment trade.
many of the agents i know surprise me with what they know about cnc.

i would also urge you to consider what you could do with a machine of less upfront involvement (used or new) i built my first verticle panel saw which i went to a trade show and stared at 45000.00 saw pining for it.. went home found linear bearings built me a carriage and off i went. build your own
cnc there are a lot of possibilitys.

now that i have owned acnc for two weeks i must say i am backing away from
the need for the extra spindle that i was so adamant about. bill has been so practical and has told me to wait and check machine before i go spending money. now that i am operating it setting z and bits just is not a big deal.

i can see alarger machine in my future and ultimatly this machine will play second fiddle however it will have paid for the other
you will get a machine. we will talk more about this call me tommorrow

jim mcgrew cabnet

it was 20 may 1993 at 5:30 pm, she was on her way out the door and hell was walking in behind her.







it became a great time to have my last drink

cabnet

it was 20 may 1993 at 5:30 pm, she was on her way out the door and hell was walking in behind her.







it became a great time to have my last drink

cabnet

What form did hell take?

One other thing to look at is the amount of sales you have, whether you can meet your sales with your current equipment, and whether you need to hire more employees if you do not purchase the equipment.

For example, one employee making 10 dollars an hour costs you 400 a week just in wages. That does not count employment taxes,unemployment insurance,workers comp, etc.

So in a month you will pay that employee 1600 dollars plus the above costs.

Now, if you were to purchase the CNC and the software to operate it, can that machine plus you do more work than that employee plus you for the same money?

also, if you are turning away work because you cannot keep up, that is a situation where you may look at financing.

Here is what I suggest and what I am currently doing:

go to your areas small business development center and sit down with them. They will help you to write a business plan, develop a marketing strategy, and run some financial numbers to see whether your plan can cash flow at the levels you are projected to be selling. In my area they also offer gap financing and have some more programs tied to economic development that can provide more assistance based on projected job creation.

The business plan is the key. It will help you define what you want to do,how you plan to do it, and what you need to do it. If your plan is sound it will give you confidence and direction and it will show the lending agencies that you know your business and your direction.

KustomKoncepts,

Your story sounded grim until I read you are 28. Good grief man, look at what you have already accomplished! Cut yourself some slack, give yourself a little credit and look where you are going and what you have done already. You are focused and organized about life; I'll bet most of your friends aren't.

You are so far ahead of where I was at 28. I had $500 in the bank and no clue what I was going to do with my life; not a one. 30 years later I'm doing very well indeed, I don't owe a cent to anyone anywhere and I can pretty much have anything I want. That's your future. Here's how to get to it:

1) You want a router and the bank won't buy you one? Build it yourself. A few hundred bucks and you have one. Learn stuff. What you build may be rickety and crappy but it will earn you money. It will earn you enough money you will be able to buy the one you wanted, cash, in a year or so. Never underestimate the power of bootstrapping. You want something, don't let anything stand in your way. You are a smart guy, find a way around obstacles in your way. Learning along the way to getting what you want is never wasted either.

2) Never owe money. Debt is a leech that sucks your life's blood. You want something but you can't buy it cash? Do without, work around it but never borrow to get it. Your first house is the only exception. Car? Buy a junker. Router? Build it yourself. Anything else? Save.

You owe money. Make it your #1 priority to make it go away starting now. You will so thank yourself years in the future when something big you want is say 5 million and you have it in cash.

3) Marry a good woman. It sounds really dumb but it really works. People do best traveling in pairs when it comes to wealth and success in life. It just seems to work that way. She will crystallize your ambition because most men make their best accomplishments in the name of someone else other then themselves. It's built-in if you don't know that already.

That's it. You are a smart and ambitious guy. Use your brains, never let things stop you. You have already shown you have the needed discipline to correct and organize your life.

Mariss

KK....seems that you're doing well...at least you have a plan.

A few questions....from your financials seem to be lacking some info.....net profit....also, how did you get $80K in debt? Is the debt growing or ?

Thank you for all your words of encouragement.

I don't think I have the disapline that that you all think. Growing up in a small farming comunity with very little I feel those where the best days of my life I never knew what I was missing until I went to college in the big city I started to meet and see the spoiled rich kids that got a new Mustang or escalade just for a HS graduation present. Also seeing the Milliondollar houses lining the river bank with big boats and jet skis.

I feel that is the point in my life that I became bitter toward anyone who has more money than me, wich is a lot of people. that is when I start my shop because I felt that was the way to be like them. 7 years later bringing in over $600,000 total sales I still feel I make nothing. I have a captive audience of customers and I feel if I don't keep wow'ing them now I will slowly lose their interest.

I am a simple sign and graphics shop. If I ain't unique then the Speedy print at the mall could make it. I have to develope and design unique stuff or I get lost in all the other sign shops in town.

the attachements make nothing to do with cnc routing but it is a example of the Unique, out of the box thinking that I use as a business model.

The race car is a sample of a process I developed by acident. It is a holographic film using my 54" ink jet printer. Designed in Photoshop and adjusted to make the inks semi Transparent allowing the holographic to shine through. I was the first and only shop in my area to do this. Not saying some one else has not done this before. every other shop here has tried to copy cat me on in now.

The sign that I have donedid not take the technicalities needed by a CNC to do but would give better faster repetable results, the little signage that I have done that have cut out shapes has been very popular. Currently I cut these shapes by hand

Viper

2006 sales 127,000
net 18,500

so no I am not doing good because I have so much overhead I spend every penny I make.

80K debt

Lease on 54" printer $32,000
Paint Booth 12x12 $18,000
61" laminator $7,000
Vortex spray liner system $20,000
Sign lab program $6,500
custom computers $4,000
aurora programs $3,000
Juice drops program $7,000
remodel shop $12,000
central air $2,500
plasma cutter $1,200
welder $800
air system refrided air dryer $4,000
misc tools $3,000
smowmobile $4,500
enclosed trailer $4,000
astro van $2,100
tool box $1,000
island clean air system $6,500


total debt from start to date $139,100

Iv'e managed to pay down 59K of it over the last 5 years

monthly payments are aroun $5,000 monthly
total opperating overhead costs and loans and lease's

I pay myself $6,000 a year.

I put up my $13,000 cd's as collarteral and I have $7,000 in roth iras at that bank but they won't use them as colateral.
I also have $3,000 in mutual funds.
that is 23K

should I cash out of this bank pay the penalties and put 20K toward my 28K router then I only have to come up with 8K more?

He asked me if he could put a lean on my business I also have a net worth of $70K but that is in a perfect world where they can sell all my stuff a a good price to get there money back.

a lease company does not ask to many questions. but it will cost me $8,600 in interest for my 28K lease to onw payments.





Talk to the bank, and ask them what's is it going to take to get a loan the equipment. The bottom line is, you need this machine to move forward to grow, just like many companys who don't have a huge chuck of money up front. And if you did have the money up front, and used it to buy your machine, what happens when times get slow? and you need money to stay alive, your screwed.
Buy cashing in the your some of your investments for a down payment, this will let you buy this machine, your young.
I am highly against building machines if your a company, I have built many cnc machines, and the time and money it takes to get them right, your better of buying a proven product and be done with it.
The tax breaks are allowed up to 125k deduction on equipment purchases, so you can write it off, for the next 5 years.
Your young, roll the dice and win. Don't look back in 10 years and say, should have, could have, would have.

Go for it!

Here is another example of why I want a cnc.

this is my new sign, it is a good example of how New aged Digital graphics and cut shape demention work together.

the KK logo is raised and bowed 12 in. away from the base.

4x8 Alumicore base and Poly metal for the KK, Poly metal is a 1/8" formable material that is how it holds the curved face.

total weight of this sign was 32 Lbs

If you are making signs, have you looked at the used shopbots? You can pick them up for a very low price and they will do anything you want them to do for signwork and pay themselves off quickly.

Then when you get the money put away,buy one of the cnc hotwire foam cutting machines and you will have a great amount of work open up to you

I have heard about a cnc hot wire but what is it?

Never have I seen such good advice from anyone else on this forum...

Mariss you just became my friggin' hero.

For 1), I could not afford a commercial router, so I built one, two, then the third, First 2 were rickety and the 3rd is way better, I know enough now to build one sweet machine for my 4th one that's coming soon.

For 2) I'm still working on this one... After I sell my house and pay off my unsecured debt with the proceeds... I'm golden.

For 3) I just got married to a fantastic woman only 2 weeks ago. (Which is what is driving the selling of my house, cause her's is better.) Just so happens, not only is she gorgeous and nice, she's also a financial analyst that knows her stuff and practices what she preaches. So could I have done not one bit better here. She'll have me ready to retire from my day job early. Whooo!

KustomKoncepts,

1) You want a router and the bank won't buy you one? Build it yourself. A few hundred bucks and you have one. Learn stuff. What you build may be rickety and crappy but it will earn you money. It will earn you enough money you will be able to buy the one you wanted, cash, in a year or so. Never underestimate the power of bootstrapping. You want something, don't let anything stand in your way. You are a smart guy, find a way around obstacles in your way. Learning along the way to getting what you want is never wasted either.

2) Never owe money. Debt is a leech that sucks your life's blood. You want something but you can't buy it cash? Do without, work around it but never borrow to get it. Your first house is the only exception. Car? Buy a junker. Router? Build it yourself. Anything else? Save.

You owe money. Make it your #1 priority to make it go away starting now. You will so thank yourself years in the future when something big you want is say 5 million and you have it in cash.

3) Marry a good woman. It sounds really dumb but it really works. People do best traveling in pairs when it comes to wealth and success in life. It just seems to work that way. She will crystallize your ambition because most men make their best accomplishments in the name of someone else other then themselves. It's built-in if you don't know that already.

Mariss

You have some neat stuff, you need a cnc machine, go for it!

i just wrote you a long response and wiped it out by accident.

buy a used router from a sep up guy (i asked about shopbots onthere site and got six responses) use the router for sx months to two years and step up the router will not loose value. its like a john deere tractor

then you will know what you need in the long run while laying the ground work

at 37 i lost everything i owned and it was worth every minute of it
cabnet

oh and as for the hell walking in the door, just go to any aa meeting, any where, the story will be told by someone at 8:00 tonight over a cup of coffee

I have heard about a cnc hot wire but what is it?


http://www.tekoa.com/home.php?xid=b3c17ea664d410095b2f422584412458

What is sending the bankers into a panic and run away from me?

because you are not making any money. Banks don't, and shouldn't give a crap about the vision etc - they are trying to rent depositors money while maintaining security. Security comes in from two things, the burden cover (doesn't sound like there is much profit there) and secondly what is the liquidation value of the machine if they have to take it back. keep in mind, they have big costs associated with remedies - they want to avoid situations that seem like they'd have to take things back.

Banks provide capital at the lowest cost, and hence are the most risk adverse. As you move down the balance sheet, there are other sources (in theory) such as leasing and finally equity however as you move down the cost of capital goes up. I look at a lot of equipment finance deals and its tough to finance. 50% of orderly liquidation value and a rate in the teens is typical on a subordinated equipment loan to established companies.

imo your problem isn't your bank, its your business. if you're only paying your only employee (you) 6k per year and have no free cash flow to speak of, the model is busted. raise your prices or something - you need to be able to pay yourself a reasonable wage and then get a return on the equity you have in the business. I appreciate and respect the entrepreneur spirit....sounds like you're being being tough on yourself lifestyle wise...but be equally as tough business wise. Try to understand why this isn't making money and change it, otherwise why do it?

I guess I do it to prove wrong the people that say I can't.

I'd rather be a broke, Miserable, long hour working, self employeed shop owner

than a min wage employee anyday.

many banks and people said I would not ever get this going and yes I bring in a lot but I am getting gutted by leaches that attache themselfs to me.

we have 4 phone books here.

Dex 1/8 page size ad......$260.00 mo
yellow book 1/8 ad..........$220.00 mo
smart search 1/8 ad........$110.00 mo
red river directory...........$60.00 mo

that is $650 month or $7800 annually.

that is a lot of waste for one guy. $650 that is more than the lease payment need of $610.00

heck I did cancel yellowbook and red river but if I discontinued all of them I would have the money for my lease payment on a cnc without adding or putting anymore weight on my shoulders. that is like having another machine free of use so what ever it makes is butter.

I used to advertise even more and have cut my advertising in half for the past 4 years and continue to do more in sales.

I have to admit that dec 2005 is when I did the remodel $12,000 came out of my net profits.

2006 I build a streched golfcart with full air ride system and overhead rack (another $11,000 out of what would have been 11K more on my net profit.

so I do ok like I said I spend exactly what I make and other than the golf cart and my smowmobile everything else has been business related expences and improvements.

By the way I lettered 70 racecars last year and I run with a group of friends that race. that is why I built the custom pit cart. it has tool boxes, compressed air, lights, towropes, spectator seats up top and is generally a popular vehicle in the pits among the buggest sector of customers who I do work for. so it is kinda business related but also was for fun.

wrote off the cart (ad Expense)

we have been featured in many magazines and used to carry a big budjet with some i cut all that i advertise with ( here it's called bellsouth, now att)
yellow pages and do use there internet link, works just fine sales are up

WE DO NOT DO CASH FLOW WORK if there is no profit there is no job
i do not work for people who do not want the best for me and i for them

builders "do this one for me and i'll bring you ten more" ok i respond i got a better idea " i'll do this ONE at full price and give you a discount on ten at three per order" creamates thier bs every time!!!

nice lady three weeks ago says i only got 25000.00 for this kitchen so i draw plans (charge her 500.00) work hard to
bid 21000.00 left her some decorating money. then she hires a designer
at 3000.00, saw my exit told her we could not do the job untill next august
now she can't find any one who'll do it and has already called back.

i stick my fingers in a saw for people, breathe dust of all kinds,

institute changes slowly and with out vengence it's amazing what a little esteem will do

people are happiest when they are paying

four phone books
which one do people read???

who knows what book gets used, I don't even get work from them. add that up and I found my payment money for a cnc. I did discontinue 2 of them starting january and will see about eliminating another next year.


Here is another story told to me by a sign a rama in minniapolis MN.

guy comes in says he has 10 + trucks to letter. says but I need this one right now. can I get a discount?

the sign a rama says ok but I will charge you the regular price for the first 9 and do the 10th one free. (think about it that is the same as 10% off each of them)

guy does one truck then a month later more, sign a rama has done over 150 of these trucks for him. (delivery service)

he said once we got to the 10th one he never even said anything.

I get the hey buddy and can't you do better all the time. the problem is I am underpriced already and I am afraid of setting my prices where they should be for fear of losing them but if I continue like this I will continue to be a non profit organization!!

i got an apartment job that will pay a big chunk of my machine and i thought of you, i have looked at your work and i see a lot of what i would consider art, art is good, most artist starve and are only famous after they are dead.

i tell my guys constantly do not fall in love with it "it aint yours" so while we do "art" in kitchen hoods and islands, fancy this, fancy that, we also do melamine casework for commercial break rooms, doctors offices, countertop replacement,
for good old general contractors. you know bread and butter work, bill paying money, i am sure you do this, ie: vinyl lettering on mall shops,

i am attaching a link for the ND chapter of the AGC look into it (a gc will get you in there plan room as a subcontractor before you go and join) this is where you will find most all of the bid work that will be done long before it comes out of the ground. architects submit plans to the plan rooms and GC's
bid with out all the hassel (competitive bidding) plans are displayed for all to bid online and in the plan room, you will probably cut signs and parts for them.

and while it ain't art it is paying for your machine, if you ain't married turn two
saturdays a month into debt paying days.

i have seen many a project come out of the ground, watched it until the job trailer comes to the site and when foundations are showing up, walked into a jobsite trailer with a hard hat on my head (show em you are in thier world)
and made myself 30-50.000.00$ some more some less

http://www.agcnd.org/default.asp

jim mcgrew

that is a good idea and yes you are right I am a artist and we don't get paid for the time and materials it takes to be a artist. Hence the problem of how I bring in so much money but after paying $63K for over head, another 40K to vinyl material suppliers, new plasma, golfcart parts, remodel, I have nothing at the end of the year.

one big idea I have with the cnc is to develope a line of motorsports related goods, garage bars, trim, trophie shelfs, stools, ect. cnc cut shapes along witht he matches digital graphics I can design and print, along with the airbrushing I think I could make a pretty cool free standing bar.

what are the regulations when making furniture? I plan to sell this stuff to hot rod and race enthusiests for use in Racecar shops and garages or basements.

I had the idea of cutting a tranlucent inlay on the table top that has a blue light under it to light up the top with a company logo or somthing in it. Do I have to be UL certified or if it is a UL listed fixture mounted in open plain view and the customer has to plug it in it that legal?

there are no regulations when it comes to furniture, i just would not suggest painting it with lead paint!! we buy all electrical ul listed i really do not think you can get it any other way.

you would benifit greatly from attending the iwf woodworking show in atlanta
next august, i take all of my guys and they always come back enthused!!

its not all about woodworking its 4 days and over 1200 exibitors from all over the world, its a lot about crosever machinery materials. all of the major lighting and architectural products are there

do not try to see this show in one day on your firsttime

check this
http://www.outwatercatalogs.com/2007_Master/index.cfm

cabnet

http://www.bar-stools-barstools.com/scripts/prodview.asp?idProduct=828

cabnet you can read my mind.

HS 7500 for a bar. wish I could get that much but North dakota is a poor slow state that is why I just get by already but yes that is kinda what I was thinking along those lines.

Thanks

did you see that bar is discontinued and allow 2 months for production!! I bet they never sold one of them that was the demo model!!!!!!!!

a lot more where that came from

Here is a sample of what I want a cnc to do for me, this is a Racecar style wall plaque or with a clock in it. this one I had to rout the recess in the back out free hand (kinda croocked) but you don't see it. I am still working out the logictics of this process.

it is 3/4 HD mdf 45 degree edges on table saw, Automotive primer, automotive paint, Vinyl digital graphic, automotive clear coat.


what guys like is I design a theme for there real car and I make the diecast replica and wall clock, banners, window stickers and such and they all match the origional design because I doo it all inhouse myself witht the same photoshop file I started with.

some people go to a sign shop to get the car lettered then to a diecast guy, then to a card guy, then a t-shirt guy, then nothing looks the same and is different colors.

this is what Kustom Koncepts is based upon, I try to do every thing I can Myself without outside sources that contribute to diferent colors and design to be used in the final products.

got 65 for this one in 89

we are just 75 miles from darlington and 95 miles from charlotte. the modelsmarket, clothing all of it are in specialty stores

trucks pulling these cars between fla and nc, va, etc. are in our truck stops every day there is all the business you ever wanted at any thing if you'll
just do your boot camp time.

how far is sturgis

cabnet

that is awsome but yeah that is a little bit bigger and out of my league for one guy to handel.

I was thinking smaller bars and garage type stuff. Like I said in the northland we are a poor conservative people. I like to call it tight wads but conservative is politically correct.

that race car 3/4 wraped I get $450.00 installed if I try to get $500 I lose it to another shop that is priced at $499.00 kinda like the price is right bid one dollar under and get the win.

I hated people who bid the 1 dollar on the price is right!!!

Sturgis is 7 hrs away, Motorcycle's are dead market, I saw a huge up spring of custombikes but can only get $2500 for a full body work molded frame and paint job.

getting the girl to sit on it was much cheaper and easier
jim

and did you feel that was a lot of money?

because that bluew bike in the picture I did from bare steel to finished product.

$3,000 with a fiberglass seat pan.

took me 2 months to complete 130 Hrs total working on it. $1,200 material cost

so I worked for $13.84 Hr but the shop costs $28.00 hr so I had to pay the shop $14.15 hr to do this bike.

That is why I say artists don't get paid. I **** when I sit and look at all of it and realize I would have been better off stairing at the ceiling for 130 Hrs. it would have cost me less to do that.

that is why I am not doing bikes anymore.

$6,000 is the minumum and no takers yet over the past 2 years since I made that ruling.

The dang tv shows make it look like you can drop your bike of on friday and pick it up monday. I hate OCC and discovory for making painters look like a disposable venue.

they cheapened it so much.

did the same thing to me

http://cgi.ebay.com/Multi-Cam-CNC-Router-for-Cutting-Wood-or-Metal_W0QQitemZ180196543859QQihZ008QQcategoryZ57122QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem

and bill glenn built this one

http://cgi.ebay.com/WARTHOG-CNC-5-HP-ROUTER_W0QQitemZ260192540852QQihZ016QQcategoryZ57122QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem#ebayphotohosting

the first thing they look at is your ratios. first your debt to equity, then 'current ratio' that is the ratio of your current assets to your current liabilites. Anything less that 1.15 and you won't get squat out of a bank. I run a box plant with sales over 5 mil and we have to use leasing companies. I got pretty good rates, plus we don't have to use cash to put in 10 or 20%. Try Elease.com. I did a couple of deals with them this year and got pretty good rates.

Bryan, how are you calculating the rate? forget about the rate they tell you about, you have to work out the effective rate.....dollars to donuts its a lot higher than you think it is. 1.15 is very low, tough to run to run a business on that. basically no working capital.... are you surprised the banks would back off - how much equity is in the business?

about 3 mil in equity. Our effective rate is 7.65%. This is the same rate that the bank was going to give us with a 15% cap infusion.

cabnet
www.mcgrewwoodwork

bryan whay type boxes are you producing ?

corrugated. Yes, go cocks. But not until next year.

your right up the road from us are you using cnc?? cutting??
jim mcgrew

I have a small router in my garage, and a X3 in progress. I have a 66x110 CNC sample table that we use to cut out prototype designs.

KK, your artwork is so great, have you considered having another small starving shop made the cnc cuts for you while you build up your business ? This is just an idea, but a lot of shop time is spent on the design / gcode generation / setup, while the machine itself is somewhat less labor intensive.

If you look around, you might be able to find a shop that can do the cnc router work for you at a reasonable price. Once you start working closely with a shop, and get to know their tooling / setup methods, the cost to do work can drop.

There are a LOT of people who have built up DIY cnc routers, as well as shops with pro versions. I have to believe that if you post a few examples of what you need machined in the RFQ section, people will bid.

My own cnc router project is a good example. (still under construction). I am doing it mostly as a hobby and for around the house projects, but I would not mind picking up a few paying jobs either. (to help pay off the router mostly) My overhead is pretty low (already work as a Business Consultant from my home) so routing out a few parts on a cnc router is pretty low cost. My time though, is very precious, so I don't want to mess around making designs via cad / gcode, etc for a low paying project. If I worked with someone who already knew my setup, they could send me a file and away it goes. (I think).

The point is, there are people with equipment that is under utilized, and would love to put it to work. If you cannot make money using their aggressive prices, then you will not be able to make enough money to pay for purchasing a new router your self either. Keep in mind, the real unemployment rate in many parts of the US is 15- 20 percent, not the official 5 percent government rate. People will work if given the opportunity.

Yes, I have outsourced before But for the same reason that I don't even want a Employee is not the fact that I can't I just don't want to. I as the owner and founder have to have all the control in my projects from design to final product. I have a vision that no one else shares and I like that. I have had payed interns and it was devestating. I had to hold their hand and by that time I could have done it myself. I swear I am a control Freak. JK but it is my name and reputation on the line and I want my designs and work to look a certain way. Kustom Koncepts speaks for itself. I do Kustom one off works. I do some behind the scene repedative mundane tasks that the public eye does not see. I make more money doing those jobs than the one offs but that is the way it goes. I have a balance of both.

Don't feel sorry for me though my bottom line is very thin and I pay myself little, I am building a enterprise here, by myself. I went back and added up non essential but business equipment expansion/improvement purchases from 2007. it was over $24,000 that means I should be able to almost pay cash for that 28K cnc this year if I have the same year in sales. I have grown sales by 10 to 30 K the last 5 years that I have been doing this full time. I found a way to use a bifferent supplier and material for this year am I will make a additional $7,000 on my racecar wraps alone. I was able to shave $100 off the material cost of the vinyl for the racewraps. I wraped 70 cars last year. Buying my ink in bigger cartrages I will same over a grand for the same amount of ink, same manufacturer. I will be buying bulk rolls of kraft paper from a whole sale paper suppy company instead of from my vinyl supplier (used for laminating vinyl) saving $800 annually.

Looking into the purchase of this cnc has actually made me look at all the aspects of my daily opperations. as you can easily see I wasted over $8,800 this year on material expenses that I could have saved with the knoledge I have today. and the $24,000 in business expansions/improvements that I won't need this year hopfully. I see it as this, I could pay cash for this over the next year and it would not have to even produce anything, because my current business could already cash flow it plus pay for it.

Now just get a bank to belive that.

I asked the bank to give me a answer yes or no by this friday. A lease company aproved me in one hour but I will save almost $5,000 going with my Credit Union bank. If I have to I will Lease. Thank yo all for you help

I Finally got my banker to tell me yes today. after I suggested that if he did not say yes I was going to cash out my Certificate of deposit's, CD's from his bank and put it as a down payment and lease the remainder amount.

I will be signing the papers on Wenesday Next. delivery 4 top 6 weeks.

Shop Sabre 4x8

Visial Mill 6.0

HSD 5 HP 24,000 rpm With 5 position (ATC) Expandable to 20+ positions

Limit Switches

Automated Spindle Control program on/off

Increase Gantry Heith 2"... 10" total

Air Balancer on z axis

A/C servo Motors

Automated spindle speed control (Software control RPM settings)

Tool Measure switch

total enugh

finally getting what you wanted after 3 months fighting with the financeing and hassel.

Priceless!

Good to hear you got your loan on your machine.
If you tell the banker , whats it going to take? they will make it happen!

I am nervious but excited at the same time. it was a long jurney starting with what cnc to get. then how to finance it affordably.

I still think that I will buy a bigger or more advanced one later in life but this one was a entry level cnc and when compared to others in its range it came down to the visit I had at there location only 3.5 hours away. They where able to show me things in person on actual machines that don't translate in pictures, web sites and fourms.

I just seem a ad in Sign Business for a Haas cnc. The first time I ever heard of Haas.. Man there are a lot of companies out there I could shop around for 5 years. it looks way out of my beginner price range though. I wonder what the Haas SR-100 goes for?

I guess if a guy looks he could look forever as there are so many companies and new models coming out every day.

... I wonder what the Haas SR-100 goes for?...

A few dollars less than $35,000.

That is not as bad as I was thinking for that SR 100. it is not on there site yet but it was in a ad of sign business mag this month. I am around 30K with shop sabre.

Like I said I could look forever I just had to take one and make it work.

..it is not on there site yet...

Yes it is at haascnc.com

Click on Vertical Spindle then on Gantry Machines.

The SR-100 is a whole lot more machine than a Shop Saber.

one of my guys likes to say "you can do it"!!!

good for you now we can study software

my sis is giving me corel draw x3 you familiar with it ?

jim

i can only give you advice from my on experience,at 27 i started a shop building injection molds with 10k,every year i doubled my sales and size,my fifth year i was grossing 1.2 mil and was molding parts on five presses,i was morgaged to the hill,one bad year lost 200,000 cash and was out of business,i learned the hard way,my new business is 3 years old now,i started in my parents garage to save money,paid cash for everything but the building and one machine and now have 4000 sq ft building and triple the machines,i have so much work i too could use more machines,but i will wait until i pay off all my debts,heres the one true thing in business ive learned,the only thing you can control is payrol,payments you are stuck with for the term,busy or slow

Yes it is at haascnc.com



The SR-100 is a whole lot more machine than a Shop Saber.

Geof I am guessing you have a Haas? since you got imediatly defensive.

I never said it was more machine I am done with the arguments between different machines. This is the one I have chosen and no one can or will change my mind here. it is a done deal I like what it is I have seen it in person and it is my first cnc machine and most likely not my last.

I think shop sabre is a entry level machine like techno, camaster, ezrouter, shop bot. right below the mid level Haas, Multicam, axyz, ect.

Don't start a pissin match about manufactures we have been through that already. I was just telling you all what I got.

Geof I am guessing you have a Haas? since you got imediatly defensive....

.... Don't start a pissin match about manufactures we have been through that already. I was just telling you all what I got.

Huh:confused::confused::confused:

I answered a question and told you a price that you wondered about.

I referred you to a website with the links to hit to find what you could not find.

I made a perfectly factual statement which you seem to agree with that the Haas SR-100 is lot more machine than a Shop Saber.

This constitutes a pissing match?????

Were did "we" go through that already?

never mind.
I only brought up Haas because I had just seen a haas ad (for the first time) in sign business magazine this month and I saw DRD has a Haas 5 axis. I only then put 2 and 2 together and was just asking.

I have been in other posts that everyone seems to just argue about what machine to buy. yes that SR-100 is more machine and more money. there are cnc out there for enven more. I could shop forever and never buy anything. I have not heard of Haas because it seems there mostly CNC mills so someone in the wood and sign side would not be familiar with them. I hear or learn about different companies every day I am new to the whole CNC world anyways, THere are so many of them out there I could never get to all of them.

so no "we" you and I, have not been through this but several of the others here that I talk to have been over this and argued back and forth about different manufacturers and machines.

I am going to stop posting on this site because everyone is so self centered,I also have pride in what machines I have and what vehicle brand I drive ect. I guess this is no exception. I guess will just I have to just find a site that only has members of the same machine manufactuer that I have so there aint a constant battle about the different manufacturers machines and models.

I Finally got my banker to tell me yes today. after I suggested that if he did not say yes I was going to cash out my Certificate of deposit's, CD's from his bank and put it as a down payment and lease the remainder amount.

I will be signing the papers on Wenesday Next. delivery 4 top 6 weeks.

Shop Sabre 4x8

Visial Mill 6.0

HSD 5 HP 24,000 rpm With 5 position (ATC) Expandable to 20+ positions

Limit Switches

Automated Spindle Control program on/off

Increase Gantry Heith 2"... 10" total

Air Balancer on z axis

A/C servo Motors

Automated spindle speed control (Software control RPM settings)

Tool Measure switch

total enugh

finally getting what you wanted after 3 months fighting with the financeing and hassel.

Priceless!


I think you made a good choice.

Kustom, Your perseverance in your endeavors to purchase the Shop-Sabre Router is admirable. It just goes to prove that if you believe in something hard enough you can find a way to make it happen. It is this sort of attitude that will see you and your business prosper in the years ahead.

I believe that you have made an excellent choice in purchasing a Shop-Sabre machine. I have only ever read good reports of this machine.

You can be justifiably proud of yourself and your machine. Well done mate!

Rocket.