I am hoping someone here can help me with a problem I am having with my Sharp 2412 mill with FANUC Oi-Mate controller. There is no rhyme or reason to this problem and no pattern that I can find. Here is what happens. During normal program exec, the machine will hang during tool change. The TxM6 is called, the spindle goes to tool change height and orients then....nothing. Just sits there with the green light blinking and the control displays M6. I can push the RESET button, switch to EDIT and go back up a few lines to the new tool and start the program from there. It might work normally for a few tools, or hang on the next change. Sometimes, it will run totally normally. Pushing the CYCLE START button during the hang does nothing. I have made sure that M01 is not active on the panel. The problem seems to be getting worse. I am not afraid to dig into the guts and check whatever I need to. Anyone have any ideas?

I have a very similiar problem, as yet unresolved.

Lets say I am running on 25% rapid, and have a tool change in the program. The machine will change tools, then take off at 100% rapid. It will execute the program until the next toolchange, but will hang up on m6 in the toolchange macro exactly as you describe. If it takes off with the wrong rapid rate, it hangs up EVERY single time.

I personally think it has something to do with being cold. I know that sounds crazy, but the only time mine does it is when it is fall or winter, and I didnt run the heat at night. Start machine up, it hangs up for about an hour then quits, and runs fine. I think is a bad connection somewhere, and when the control doesnt get both signals (in the ladder) it defaults to 100% rapid but cant tool cahnge because of the missing signal.

You said yours is getting worse, is it getting colder in your shop?

My dealer has looked at it twice, he added some more dwell time to the toolchange, might have helped some. It went several months without doing it, then 2 weeks ago, started again. I cant get my dealer to return any phone calls. I have an independant repairman coming Monday, if we figure it out I will definitly let you know.

Mine used to hang randomly on tool changes (about 1 in 50) and more so when the machine was cold. I would hit the start button and it would continue like nothing was wrong. I turned up the the low side on my compressor so supply pressure would not fall below 100psi and adjusted the regulator on the back of the machine to the high side of the green zone. Knock on wood, it seems to have fixed it. Also, check your supply lines to make sure you are not restricting it through funky plumbing.

Spock, you have described the EXACT same condition I have. I used to run on 25% rapid and after a tool change it would take off at 100% and then hang on the next change. I can say that I don't think temp has anything to do with it. It has run in a shop that was cold (55 degrees) and now in a shop that is around 70. It even did it in the summer. My machine will hang all day long. I originally thought that it might be electrical noise from my sharp lathe. The problem got worse after we installed that, but it still does it even if the lathe is not running. It is very frustrating and a huge waste of time.

Mickey D,

I have had that problem as well, where the machine would just stop, mine usually in the middle of a cut. Push the start button and all would be cool again. I think my compressor might be a little low on the low side. I also know that my regulator on the back of the machine is set to about the middle of the yellow. I adjusted it up awhile ago and did not see any difference so put it back where it was. I will try those 2 changes together and see what happens. Spock, can you tell me what your compressor / regulator settings are? Maybe we might be on to something. I did read another post that talked about limit switches in the spindle gear box. Maybe the controller is not getting a signal it needs. I am not too familiar with that stuff and have no idea what the "Ladder" is.

I've had similar problems on an rather large OKK CNC with a Bosch Controller.
Part of a cycle to say change a tool operates various mechanisms in sequence.
Cycle starts first part of sequence. Waits for a limit switch to say that part of cycle is complete.
Next step commanded, wait for next limit switch.
Each sequence starts moving something.
That sequence is usually completed by hitting some limit.
Eg Tool picker at location ready to pickup a tool.
If any of the limit switches are not sensed correctly, or at all then the cycle waits, hence the green light just waiting.
Also some parts of sequences may be progressed based on timers instead of limit switches. If a time is set to short, or something does not move fast enough to get to it's next spot, because it's gummed up that can do it too.

Easiest thing with limit switches is putting a 0.1uF Capacitor across the switch, so you get the capacitor supplies extra wetting current to keep the contacts clean. This is usually a safe fix, if no capacitor is across a switch.
If it causes some operational grief, then just remove it.

When the machine is 'stuck' try thumping around the areas where the limit switch(es) are/is and you may identify it. Careful of unexpected movement if the machine normally moves FAST.

Every case I have had on an aging machine has been tardy limit switches.
Clean plunger mechanisms and get rid of gummy old lubricant.

May appear temperature related, because lubricants get more sluggish at low temperatures.

Also look at connector plugs. Make sure all pins have positive pressure.

Search and destroy....... It will fix it. Don't blame software. It is just doing it's job. If it worked yesterday, it ain't broke.
:cheers:

I am 100% sure it aint software, it is mechanical.

My air compressor runs between 140 and 170 on pressure.

My regulator on machine is set to .65 Mpa, near the top of the yellow.

The idea that there is some grease on a switch, getting cold and stiff, and not allowing it to move freely makes sense to me. Then, the switch cant send it's signal, in the ladder schematics in controler it defaults to 100%, machines until the next toolchange, then hangs up waiting for signal.

I agree Spock. It does make sense that it could be a limit switch. Do you have the same machine? A sharp sv2412? Anyways, I will be running it today and I am sure it will hang. I will try Neil20's suggestion of banging around where limit switches are and see if that might be it. I think before that, I will take a good look at the Z axis limit switch that I can see. Lets work together on this one and see what we can find out ?

I had that issue on the loaner machine I had for a couple of months. Charlton Lu told me to add a bit of dwell fro the limot switched in the tool change macro. That cured it na dI also did the same for my machine. I have not had any issues. I do keep the pmachine pretty clean though. Limit switched being what they are...

I have a sv24-12 super mini with OI-MC control.

Adding dwell was what the dealer service did, and it seems to have helped alot, but didnt cure it for mine.

I keep my machine very clean, but I think when repairman gets here on Monday I will have him go thru switches with contact cleaner or something, check for anything loose, etc. Thing is, my machine did this when brand new, no chips or dried sticky coolant or anything!
I will let you know if we find anything out.

Well another day of machine frustration. Did some bangin around with a rubber mallet. No luck. Checked what limit switches I could find. Not sure where they all are. How would I add more dwell in the tool change macro? I am pretty handy with computer stuff so if I knew what value to change I will give it a try. Also here is something I noticed. When the machine hangs, I can rotate the spindle freely. I know from experience that when I do an M19, the spindle is locked in its oriented position. Could the issue be here? Spock, let me know what the repairman says. Thanks.

I'll send you my tool change macro in the morning if you send me an email...

Well another day of machine frustration. Did some bangin around with a rubber mallet. No luck. Checked what limit switches I could find. Not sure where they all are. How would I add more dwell in the tool change macro? I am pretty handy with computer stuff so if I knew what value to change I will give it a try. Also here is something I noticed. When the machine hangs, I can rotate the spindle freely. I know from experience that when I do an M19, the spindle is locked in its oriented position. Could the issue be here? Spock, let me know what the repairman says. Thanks.

There may be a limit switch to detect spindle unlocked.
If so it must be satisfied for further progrees.
Does anything happen after the spindle disengages?
The unlocking maybe of an electronic nature, with no switches, in which case this won't be the problem.

Press on...
regards.

What must be understood is that the 1st thing the machine does wrong is come out of a toolchange and take off at an unspecified rapid traverse rate. When it does this, it reads every G0 code in the program and goes 100%, regardless of the switch setting. It reads G1 correctly.

The hangup comes after it has executed all the code for that tool, and goes to change position in Z, starts reading thru the toolchange macro, and then hangs at M6.

If i run a single tool program with no change it will still take off at wrong rapid rate sometimes, then do the machining, and return to Z home. I change parts, hit cycle start again, and it takes off again at either the right or wrong rate, but there is no hangup then because there is no toolchange.

That leads me to think that the problem is not toolchange related, but that the hangup is a symptom, and the culprit is whatever lets the machine take off at the wrong rate to begin with.

Spock
Is this a 0iMate control or a 0iMc?
Never had it happen to me but I have a 0iMc control not the Mate...

I have seen the Bosch controller lose the feed rate setting.
In the PLC the part that reads the feed rate pot got screwed up because of unexpected sequences with limit switches. Problem appears to be earth/noise problem. Make sure all the cable shields are connected properly. (usually at one end only).
Sounds like earthing problem at pendant or where FEED pot is located.
I suspect that during the normal PLC scan, the feed pot has been read incorrectly. There also could be a noise spike from some other fault coincident with the reading of the pot.
I notice on this controller, the feed pot is also sampled when manual control is selected to/from remote jogging. This sometimes read the wrong value. Again
bad earthing fixed it.

PBMW,
I have the OI-MC. And I really like this little machine, but I want to get rid of this bug. It is bad when I have to walk across the shop to restart a program, but what is worse is that when the machine takes off at 100%, you better have everything right or something is going to get hit hard.

neilw20, last time the tech was here he checked the signals, and I honestly cant remember the details, been several months. I remember that there was a place for 2, and they determined what the rapid rate was.

Is it possible that electrical noise might be a culprit? Could interference from another source (machine?) hurt? I am having some issues right now with interference in my phone system. I just put in cat5 cable to see if it helps. The way it has been lately, whenever I am on the phone and I have a spindle motor slow down real fast, I get serious noise in my phone. Could this be affecting the scan? Over my head here.

We have just had the same problem with our 2412, it ended up being an adjustment in the head that has to be made manually. I am not sure what the exact fix was because I was not the one doing the repair but it was an adjusment to the limit switch from what i remember. The machine had just hung in tool change position and the only way to fix it was to hit the emergency stop(dont do because the tool will fall out). Once the adjustment was made we had no further problems with the machine hanging up. Sorry I cant give exact details to the fix but I can tell you that it is a limit switch for the tool change.

Limit switch, had the same problem and now it is fixed.

PBMW,
I have the OI-MC. And I really like this little machine, but I want to get rid of this bug. It is bad when I have to walk across the shop to restart a program, but what is worse is that when the machine takes off at 100%, you better have everything right or something is going to get hit hard.

neilw20, last time the tech was here he checked the signals, and I honestly cant remember the details, been several months. I remember that there was a place for 2, and they determined what the rapid rate was.

Is it possible that electrical noise might be a culprit? Could interference from another source (machine?) hurt? I am having some issues right now with interference in my phone system. I just put in cat5 cable to see if it helps. The way it has been lately, whenever I am on the phone and I have a spindle motor slow down real fast, I get serious noise in my phone. Could this be affecting the scan? Over my head here.

Use the phone to call a VERY experienced CNC doctor/installer/designer. Not just a serviceman. A soundly designed earthing system design is a MUST.
If somebody says they will TRY something go somewhere else.
This problem must be analyzed and fixed.
How much is the machine worth?
Phone noise probably normal from motor control. Long cables will do that.
If the program is resuming part way through, a command in the tool cycle has may have selected G0 as a part of the tool change cycle.
After each TOOL CHANGE, before any move put G1 on the next line.
If that works, your tool change cycle is badly written.
Do you use G0 for rapids within a program?
It is a good idea to only use G1, and do rapid moves in a controlled manner by selecting a high feed rate for the move. This is good practice
Any sub program that does something, such as change a tool, or whatever, should leave the machine in the same state as it found it, unless the intention is to change something.
As protection against this problem I have noticed the bosch controller forgets the feed rate on purpose after a tool change, which then causes an error G1 move without feedrate selected. Also, if no feed rate selected, G0 does not work.
Buy me a ticket to visit you (and return!) and I will fix it for free. You buy the parts! (LOL)

"Buy me a ticket to visit you (and return!) and I will fix it for free. You buy the parts! (LOL)"

How about you send me to Australia, teach me some things about electronics in cnc's, and send me home! Ha!

Machine cost about 40k. I have the best Fanuc man I know coming tomorrow.

I do use GO for rapids in a program. i agree that a toolchange sequence should leave the machine as it was, that might be the problem.

My symptoms are the same as Spock, but we have the OI-Mate-MB control. I thought electrical noise might be the problem too, but we just moved the shop and had the place professionally rewired. Whatever the fix is, it will be worth the money. I hate walking across the shop to fix this machine. Other than this little bug, it has been a great workhorse. Spock, I hope you will let us know what the repair man says. BTW, who is he and where is he located?

The guy coming over is Ron Jones, lives in Somerset, Ky. Drives up north to work alot in Ohio. Should be here in an hour or so, and we can get on this. I will keep you posted.

On Edit: I hope he gets here early....I am so convinced that the machine will act up when cold I have the bay door open and no heat on. It was 27 degrees this morning, hasnt warmed up much. I am staying in the office until I have to change parts on the lathe...brrrrr

Pbmw,
could you send me a copy of your toolchange macro?
shopprints@hotmail.com

Here is what repairman found:

He watched the plc section while machine was cycling, watching for the spindle orientation signal to make. This happens when you rapid up then come back down to tool change position, when the spindle orients for the change. When the spindle orients, the signal is good and now the carosell can slide over to do it's thing.
Here is what happpens: sometimes the z axis goes up, comes back to tool change position, the signal comes in on plc just like it is supposed to, then disapears, like you hit reset or like something somewhere cancelled it. We saw this every time it hung up. The signal for spindle orient was gone, so the carousell doesnt do it's thing, because the spindle is not locked now and would not stay in place when the "cup" hit it. So the machine does what it is supposed to, "nothing".

Now, what made the signal disapear? If it was a bad photo eye (that reads the spindle location) why did it send a signal in the first place? Why do it randomly?

Here is what he did: in the toolchange macro, near the very end, there are two lines that give you back control over single block (#3003=0) and over feedrate override (#3004=0). He put in a dwell line right in front of them, (G4X1.0). Now, after a tool change, there is a dwell of 1 second before the machine takes off again. He explained why but I dont know if I can explain it clearly.
I put the machine in a loop, running a short program with toolchanges, so it will just keep on running, and it has been going for 3 hours or so with no malfunction. I am running it all day, and I will test it again in the morning when it is cold.

The only other thing we can think of is to change the toolchange macro so that you dont loose the ability to override during toolchange (remove the #3004=1 at the beginning of macro). That way it is not looking for the two signals in the plc that determine the rapid rate, it just uses whatever rate you set on the switch. (The macro takes control away from the switch so that it will move as fast as possible in Z axis, for faster toolchange, getting the control back to you is where we think the problem is, hence the dwell.)

I would still like to see some macros on machines that are not hanging up, to compare, and I will keep you posted.

Spock, you are the man! I will give this change a try in the morning and see how it works out. I will run a little program in a loop and see what happens amd post my results as well.

PBMW, I would also like a copy of your tool change macro. I sent you a PM with my email yesterday, but I will change my profile to get email from members.

Well, ran for 4 hours, then something somewhere gave out, got a 1850 "magazine out of position" alarm, so i dont know if the sensor went bad or the brake, repairman coming back first thing in the morning.

Hopefully just a dirty proximity sensor in the magazine. Keep us posted.

I've had a couple of people ask me for my tool change macro, so I thought it easier to just post it here...


:9001
#3003=1
#3004=1
IF[#100EQ#4120]GOTO99
IF[#4120EQ0]GOTO99
IF[#1011EQ1]GOTO99
G91G28Z0.
G91G30Z0M19
M9
M6








































G04X0.1
IF[#1008EQ1]GOTO10
GOTO99
N10G91G28Z0
IF[#1009EQ1]GOTO12
GOTO10
N12G91G30Z0
G04X0.5
IF[#1010EQ1]GOTO99
GOTO12
N99#100=#4120
#3003=0
#3004=0
M99
% 

PBMW, thanks, very similar to mine, looks like mine has more dwell, and then the newly added yesterday.

Javajesus, I removed about 200 lines of "end of block" characters so you could see it clearly.
Also, we traced the "magazine out of position" to a faulty switch, the prox. that is right by the cam shaft. My repairman thinks this could possibly be the root of the hangup problem, by not signaling correctly. He thinks the logic program might not be setup to catch it and asign an alarm, so it is laeding to the hangup problem. I will have a new switch in tomorrow, so maybe Friday I will know something new.

Also, the switch I pulled from my machine is not the one in the book, so if you ever have to order one, be sure and check what you ave in your machine.

%
O9001
#3003=1
#3004=1
IF[#100EQ#4120]GOTO99
IF[#4120EQ0]GOTO99
IF[#1011EQ1]GOTO99
G00G91G28Z0

G91G30Z0M19

M9

G4X.4

M6
G04X0.4
IF[#1008EQ1]GOTO10
GOTO99
N10G91G28Z0
IF[#1009EQ1]GOTO12
GOTO10
N12G91G30Z0
IF[#1010EQ1]GOTO99
GOTO12
N99#100=#4120
G4X1.0
#3003=0
#3004=0
G90
M99
%

Heres mine but I have two 9000 programs 9001 and 9020
I don't know what the 9020 does if any one knows please let me know.
%
O9001
#3003=1
#3004=1
IF[#100EQ#4120]GOTO99
IF[#4120EQ0]GOTO99
IF[#1011EQ1]GOTO99
G91G28Z0.
G91G30Z0M19
M9
M6
;
;
;
;
;
;
;
;
;
;
;
;
;
;
;
;
;
;
;
;
;
;
;
;
;
;
;
;
;
;
;
;
;
;
;
;
;
;
;
;
;
G04X0.1
IF[#1008EQ1]GOTO10
GOTO99
N10G91G28Z0
IF[#1009EQ1]GOTO12
GOTO10
N12G91G30Z0
G4X.5
IF[#1010EQ1]GOTO99
GOTO12
N99#100=#4120
#3003=0
#3004=0
G90G49
M99
%
Here is the other 9020 program what does it do.
%
O9020
N1IF[#20EQ#1032]GOTO9
N2#101=#4001
N3#102=#4002
N4#103=#4003
N5#113=#20
N6G00G91G30Z0
N7M06T#113
N8G#101G#102G#103
N9M99
%

Well, the mill ran ALL day without an issue !!!!! Woohoo! Spock, next time you are in Spokane, WA, the drinks are on me. Thanks to all for your help. I was able to get the dwell time down to .500/sec to get rid of that awkward pause. I tried .1/sec, but that was not enough. Maybe I will try .250 tomarrow. It's quite a nice feeling not having to babysit the machine all day. Thanks PBMW for yout tool change macro, When I get a chance I will give it a try.

we traced the "magazine out of position" to a faulty switch, the prox. that is right by the cam shaft. %

Spock, When you say cam shaft, where do you mean? On the magazine? Also, do you have the 10 tool magazine? I was wondering if the hang issue was a faulty switch or just software moving too fast for the machine. Can you take a picture of where the faulty switch was located?

What the sharp book calls the "cam shaft" is the shaft that comes out of the little motor that turns and rotates the drum. The switch threads down next to the shaft and reads a little plate that goes around with the drum. You have to look for it thru the side door. It's a bugger to get to.
I have a 16 tool drum.
I wonder, sharp used a different switch than the book lists. There is some time duration in the plc. If the ladder logic was written with the specs for a certain switch in mind, and the switch installed is slightly different, it causes the problem? I will run that idea by the repairman when he comes back to install the new switch.
i know, it's just a switch, but if it doesnt fix it I want him there to start figuring out why.

I'm jealous. We have the 10 tool magazine, but it is our first one. We are already shopping for another. I think I know what switch you are talking about. There are 3 on the magazine that I could see. 1 for the tool pocket, 1 on a rail that the magazine slides on ( looks like a pain to get to) and 1 on the inside of the magazine, not really sure what it is for. Are you going to test the new switch without the new dwell setting? It does make sense that Sharp programmed the machine for one switch and some guy on the floor used another spec switch. That might explain why it is hanging. Keep us posted.

Well, what a week!

Got the new switch in on Wednesday, put it in, alarm goes away and plc reads like it should. Worked about 2 minutes, then the alarm came back (magazine out of position). But the switch was working this time, so new problem.
Pulled brake off the top of the magazine motor and found new problem, on one of the brake pads is a hex bore that fits the hex shaft on motor, it was chewed out completely. Magnet in brake works fine, didnt seem to be stuck. Only theory I have is that when the switch was going bad it might have been signaling at teh wrong time, which would activate the brake while the motor was still turning. The brake pad/bushing loses the fight.
On a positive note, after 4 days down I finally got the dealer to call me back, and they are working with Sharp in CA to find the part. Only problem seems to be that there is no listing for this part in the book diagrams, so Sharp is having to hunt it down.
It is weeks like this that make me wonder why I stopped working for the other guy....

Sorry to hear that you are still down. I had a little scare today when my mill lost home. Turned out to be a chip hanging out on the prox switch on the X axis. I did talk to Ed at Sharp regarding the tool change hang issue and he said he would look into it and see what he could find out. For the time being, I am just happy to have the machine run a full cycle. Thanks again Spock and keep us posted.

Sharp is sending me a new brake, so I should be back up Monday.

My repairman has a theory on the hangup, I will run it by you and see what you think:

He says that the toolchange macro is processed in a different section of the control than regular programs, and that because of the speed at which these things process it could be "jumping" back into the section where regular programming is run, before the macro is actually finished, (and has populated the plc with the correct info before it takes off again). this might explain why the machine is using the 100% rapid on all G0 moves, (from the macro) and is hanging up at the next toolchange, and why the dwell fixes it.

I do plan to reduce the dwell amount some and see what happens.

I got my dwell down to a 1/2 second to where it's almost not noticeable but is still a little. I am going to play a bit and see where I end up. The repairman's theory makes sense to me. It could be any number of things causing it and we may never know.

I got my dwell down to a 1/2 second to where it's almost not noticeable but is still a little. I am going to play a bit and see where I end up. The repairman's theory makes sense to me. It could be any number of things causing it and we may never know.

Timers are not a very good programming strategy.
Event driven is best.
You should only use timers to catch unexpected hazards (like a tool missing etc.)

Neilw20, the time I alluded to earlier was a delay, IIRc. Been several days ago, now, so I dont remember what it was for.

And, the fun continues......Sharp thinks they know what the part is that I need, and sent me one next day air. I needed a "brake" they sent me a "book", an operation manual for a conventional mill. Of course, I called the parts dept. and left messages. They didnt call back today, so getting the right part tomorrow is now impossible. Come to think if it, they have yet to return any of my calls or those of my repairman.

I am beginning to think it is good that they make such a dependable machine, if I were to have alot of problems I dont know if I could handle this for long. You get to feeling all alone when you have been down 8 days and machine tool company wont talk to you, and the only help you have gotten from your dealership is from the secretary. i have heard guys complain about poor service before, but never experienced it for myself until now. I know I am starting to whine a little, but if you have read this far, at least you are listening....

I just got a warranty 600w power supply direct from SYIL to Melbourne, Australia in 4 days, and you are having trouble with the locals??
:wave::)
By the way, the earlier free repair offer is still current (LOL). Sorry. I shall not LOL. You have a real problem and I see they are doing it by the book.
:bs::rolleyes:

Sharp has a new tool change macro you can try either via internet or through a flash card.
I used the macro for a while and the the same thing came back after a while. (FYI in the trouble shooting screen, all the 1's and 0's are lined up saying all is cool (mechanically/limit switches/I/Os) to change a tool so it appeared to be a software issue.
I did add dwell as mentioned and it cured the problem....so far. Seemed that the tool change macro was moving to fast for the control to read. Knock on wood.
Oh...keep an eye on the "air only" tool release cylinder. Had some issues with that and Sharp sent me an Air over hydraulic cylinder that is working great. Later, Matt

Well, it's been almost a month since I added the dwell and it seems as though that has fixed my problem. My machine has not missed a beat since adding the dwell and the small delay is almost imperceptable now. I would just like to thank everyone for helping out.

Mine is humming along as well with the added dwell, I would still like to see the new one offered.