First a little about myself
I Have been in Machining for 15 years since highschool.
I Have Been In North Carolina For Whole Time Originally From WV
I Have Mill And Lathe Exp Also 5 Axis On Both
Mostly i have been in Aerospace Field.Of course you can imagine i Have Picked Up Alot Of Knowledge In this Time. I have never Been Turned Down When i Submitt A Resume.Now That i Have Spent 95% of my time as operator.Starting As A Button Pusher Alll the way up to Floor Lead Position.

Now For My Questions:)
Because of Family Problems I need to move Back To My Home Town.
Wich after starting the initial JOB SEARCH in the area i couldnt find a place within 50 miles with a CNC Machine But Plenty of Mom and POP Manuel Shops as you can imagine in Rural part of West Virginia really no training or CNC machinist.But Did Find Job At a place that rebuilds Coal Mining Eqipment.
4-10 hour shifts so have a little free time

With that said i became curious about starting My Own Shop And would Love Some input.

The Area I am In Beckley Area is kinda well Placed As far as coal Mines Wich i will Network With To start with to Round Up Some Biz Before i take the Plunge.

And May Talk To some of the Smaller Shops As I know They Have been Ask to run Production But the Knowledge Just isnt there. Nor Will Be They Are Old School just trying to get by with training ppl off street (on Manuel Machines No Less.

1. Is it Hard Financially to Get Machines? Would i Need Company Name to Get Biz Loan
As for Personal Loan Will Not work For Some personal finance problems(Medical) Wich ruined my credit
How to get Started i guess is My Question

2.Machines-New? Used? Lease? Buy?
I def want cnc Lathe And Mill And At least a manual Brigeport Type Knee Mill

3.Programming Software?
I am as most of you guys and can stand in front of the machine and programm simple stuff froom my head.
But there is no way i would try to start a Biz Without some programming software. Any Suggestions? I have played with serfcam.Mastercam. And onecnc.

One CNC is the Best i can come up with for the money.Also Would need Some Training On Software as i said most of my machining life has been operator/optimizing/editing/and simple programming. But Have Excelled in all

4. If i try to get a Biz Loan What will i need to present to loaner?
i Mean i know the Coal mining Industry Needs Production And the More Local (On Time Parts) the better and they dod not care to Pay. Wich is why this idea is so Good For Me. I can really see Potential.

5. Quoting Jobs?
Is There A good Formula For this ?
Maybe there is even software im Unsure.
All i Do Know is Between My Wife And i i Have the Knowledge on Machining And Accounting And Shipping Covered.

Now To Sum Up

I Really Appreciate Any Input
I know A couple of Machines Would Pay for themselves if i can initially get the work.
This shouldnt be a major accomplishment for like i said Lack of Competition in Area
ANd this is My First Post And will Take All Advice Very Seriosly.
Im Sure i Have Left Out some very Important Questions That you Pioneers Have Came Across in your Adventures of Starting your Own Shop. Please By All Means Let Me Know.


Thanks Again For setting Thru All My Rambling Questions But really Think This Could Work.

CBCS

Not trying to be negative, but well sorry, I see red flags.
1. You start by saying 4 10 hour days do not leave you much free time.

I own a shop, and if I worked 4 10 hour days, I would consider myself to be on vacation.
You need to evaluate your desire to do this and must have a passion for it other than, "I could not find the job I want". You must be prepared to work 7 days a week 14 hours a day. If you are not prepared to do that you will fail.
I have seen it time and again- sorry, just the facts.

2. When starting a business most banks will not even validate the concept of the business being any sort of separate entity for a minimum of 2 years.
Until then, you are the business and so is your credit.

If you can get past these issues, and I think you can if you have the desire, put together some sort of plan first, i.e. the only answer to your question on how to quote is going to come from people in your area. How I quote or anyone else quotes is irrelevant to your situation. You must compare and benchmark to those you will compete against and find out if you can compete and still make money.

Hope that helps, not trying to be negative, but don't get involved in something you are not going to be happy with. Its not as easy as changing jobs if you find yourself not happy... :)

Sorry, did not read your post very carefully. It says 4 10's, and therefore you have some free time- Sorry.

Just be cautious and cover your tail.
There are a few ways to do it right. There are 1000 ways to do it wrong.
I know because I have tried about 900 of the wrong ones :)

YES I WILL BE WORKING NORMAL (PUNCH CLOCK) JOB M-T 10 HOURS

SO WILL HAVE SOME FREE TIME

ANYONE ELSE CARE TO CHIME IN ON THIS THREAD PLEASE?



THANKS FOR ADVICE REVCAM

YA, don't do it... If things are good out in your area than go for it...I'm out here in california San Francisco bay area...You have to compete like crazy with the asians out here it's tough man, shops will do it for 35 an hour around here, because they have they're entire family and friends living and working together... But if you do I'm assuming your going to buy used machines..buy a good brand of used machine tools like a kitamura ,mori or matsurra soemthing along those lines, make sure you get yourself a nice sized tumbler... save you tons of time especially if your going at alone like myself and also skip the VMC..buy a HMC will save you tons of time on those third and fourth operations...I wish I did if I could go back that's what I would do. and make sure you get yourself a cheap surface grinder, those relieved neck e-mills tend to add up quick...

Software if your going to do simple stuff, buy bobcad it's like a grand and like 500 bucks for just a straight 2-d version if you get going good I'd buy mastercam great software... as far as quoting set your shop rate and that's it...Unless you get huge that's when you'll need a software...

Perfect place for ideas... Just remember for every 1 LARGE Shop there's 100 small!

Hi,
My.02 is 4-10's, THATS A PART TIME JOB. I have a shop here in Morgantown, WV and you must be very dedicated and disciplined to work for yourself. Just make sure you are going to do what you want to do and like to do. I think EVERYONE should work for themselves at least one time to see how it really is. They say that if you make it your first year you have a good chance in making it last. Price your jobs according to the area and the type of work you will be doing, produce quality work, and the continuous work will flow for you. GOOD LUCK!!

I was extremely lucky when I started, I got a contract that paid roughly 40k in 2 months.

But then the work dried up, fortunately i didn't spend any of that money and was able to stick it out for another year until everything started picking up again.

The FIRST 5 YEARS WAS HELL if your not willing to put the time in ie 12-16 hours a day EVERY day of the week for 3-5 years your fooling yourself.

I just jumped in without a job for back up so you are already doing something that I tell others to do....and that is "don't quite you day job"

If I had it to do over with my present knowledge I would have kept my job and run the other at night and on the week ends so that I always had at least my wages to fall back on. And I would definitely build a Bridgeport Knee mill conversion for my first mill, or buy a really old CNC machine, and maybe retrofit a Mach3 or EMC onto it for starters...

You can find old Mories and old Haas (Tupperware) machines that are small enough for a garage and retro-fit them..

One reason for retrofitting an old one IMHO is good, is that you learn the machine forward and backward and can repair it or mod it easily for very little money.

And another reason is if you can make good parts with a POS homebuilt machine you can do anything!

You HAVE to keep Overhead extremely low to compete so NO machine payments will get you work because you can under price jobs initially and still make money. Once you get a good rep for your area then you can charge what your worth and still get jobs...

But I can tell you one thing that is THE MOST IMPORTANT thing to remember that allot of people that have been in business forget, PRICE alone will get you in the door. Some of the cheapskates out there you may not want to keep as customers but low prices will get you looked at. THIS ADVICE IS PURELY BEFORE YOU HAVE A REPUTATION.

Hope this helps

Get as big as you can but remain as small as you can be.

This seems to be in self conflict but not really.

YOu need GOOD equipment that will make GOOD parts. Something that is flexible yet productive. A V2Xt would be a good CNC mill but, today, they are surpassed by the TM-1's both in capability and speed and productivity. The V2Xt will be cheaper, the TM-1 much more robust/adaptive/contemporary with regard to today's machining capability.

The trick here is to find a ;market for your service and find one where you can collect your money from. It is easy to find guys to do work for who won't pay or won't pay well. Finding work that is GOOD paying and worthwhile is the trick.

If you spend good money going after lame machines, you'll not make money and always be behind. Spend the most you can barely afford to buy the best you can hardly afford - and then you'll still be barely satisfied. Finally, don't buy junk and hope/intend to "fix it up". You'll be fixing forever and not be making money - do you want a science project or to make parts????

If you're creating a science project, fine. If you're looking to create a CNC shop, spend the time and money and buy properly chosen machines for your known, target client base. Do NOT, NOT NOT buy everything on credit - spend your money wisely as the machines are an investment that can be recouped when/if the time comes when you have to liquidate. Good machines can be liquidated - junk can't be even hauled away after a while. Again, choose wisely and don't always thnik that yesteryear's "name" equipment is still viable - some "names" are simply that anymore, namely, hollow names that don't mean "service", not anymore anyway....

No offense NC but you don't really know what your talking about!

Your a small shop with perfection on you brain and not making money. Perfect doesn't pay the bills. Making it to print pays the bills.

He already stated in a round about way that he has NO money to spend on machinery and I am here to tell you that if your starting out with nothing a small/medium or big machine payment is going to keep you from making a profit.

He has a job already and is at least making some money. Your doing him a disservice by telling him that cheep is more headache than its worth.

I can see from your mind set (perfection) you would have a problem with machines that aren't in perfect order, so you chase the wild geese to make junk perfect, which in your defense is more trouble than its worth.

But I spent my childhood making custom hot rod parts that were better than any commercial stuff on the biggest POS's known to man.

Adapt improvise overcome, not wine, debate then give up.

But proof is in the pudding, I own a fairly large company and am still growing how about you?

But alas we've had this discussion before! and is pointless to go down this path again to this fellows detriment.

miljnor; tut, tut, you will offend the Master:D.

CBCS;

Listen to miljnor he knows what he is talking about. How do I know? Simple, that is the approach I took 27 years ago using manual machines. Bust a gut using your skill to make cheap paid-for machines bring in the money to then move up to new units that can really make you money. I did not even look at CNC until 1999 and by then I had my own product on stream and being distirbuted in five countries. Since then I have installed 18 Haas machines from the TL1 up to a GR510 all paid for with cash. I now export regularly to eight countries and have the time and money to indulge my hobby; taking cruises all over the world.

Go for it.

Damn i forgot to mention that!

Having your own product is huge!

It took me 9 years to partner with someone to get a product of my own and I have to say it sets you free!

You still have to make quality but you get to control the tolerancing and QC and not some dip dunk engineer that might not be able to make anything themselves much less spec something out that can work properly and be built with a budget!

And my favorite thing, now that I make my own stuff, is to design the part so that deviations in tolerances don't screw the pouch so to speak.... An art form in and of it self!

Note Miljnor: I'm sorry if I gave you the wrong impression but I too do have bills to pay and $$$ targets to hit - Yes, I do try for perfection but do so in making a very select and profitable custom made part that not just anyone can make - IE camshafts.

Although I may have a different tact toward my business ethos, I do know what I'm talking about - espedially when it comes to paying bills and making payroll - we haven't missed one yet and did this even when I had some damn lean times.

The hard part about starting a business without adequate funds is to best spend scarce money. I spent money in what I thought was a wise method and bought used legacy equipment. That tact worked, to a point. But it put me at a disadvantage when it came to doing some work that eventually became part and parcel of my business. The point is, you will ALWAYS have to make compromises to affect your dream. Jopefully, one will make the right decisions when decision making time rolls around.

I made some good decisions - I also made some bad ones. However, the bad ones are hardeer to resurrect oneself from as they often have more dire affects.

We might have different tacts toward business. We might have different ohilosophies. However to say "...No offense NC but you don't really know what your talking about!

Your a small shop with perfection on you brain and not making money. Perfect doesn't pay the bills. Making it to print pays the bills."

gives me no credit for the bills that I do pay (not inconsequential I might add) as well as my abilities to make a profit - which I do albeit not as much as I or anyone of like interests would like to make. Sometimes it is not what you do that is important - what you DON'T/SHOULDN"T do is also something that you need to know that folks don't always talk about...

No money, bad credit, not a programmer, Dream, Dream, DREAM
Once you become an expert cnc machinist-programmer, and get tired of making money for idiots, that is a good time to start.
Don't buy a pos, customers will laugh.
The first question they ask is what kind of machine do you have, and what year is it. Second question is do you do 3D.
I've posted a picture of a 1982 Fadal VMC-45 (45 taper) that an Iranian idiot bought for 25k in 97 (he got ripped off) He soon found the the machine was a pos and needless to say went out of business.
Here in silicon valley it might be diffrent than coal mining areas with respect to type of parts and complexty.
Good luck Dreamer.

The hard part about starting a business without adequate funds is to best spend scarce money. I spent money in what I thought was a wise method and bought used legacy equipment. That tact worked, to a point. But it put me at a disadvantage when it came to doing some work that eventually became part and parcel of my business. The point is, you will ALWAYS have to make compromises to affect your dream. Jopefully, one will make the right decisions when decision making time rolls around.

So what your saying is do what i say not what i do?

You admit that you bought old "legacy" equipment and made that work, even with the disadvantages that it put you in?

I guess that would mean that no one else can do it but you? or are you trying to give them pre-knowledge so they don't re-invent the wheel?

First: Most people are getting into this with job shop in mind not specifics so predicting what "disadvantage" you will be in once you buy something is a fruitless endeavor.

Second: I think i was fairly specific what i meant as P.O.S. (ie knee mill conversion) Not some random Odd 45 taper machine that someone paid roughly 23k too much for.

And when you are trying to sway a customer your speaking habits pay dividends, like if they ask you what equipment you have, you can say the brand of the mill and or say customized pieces. Although personally I don't see how this is relevant, and in my 11 years in business for myself I have never had a customer ask me this.

I have had competition ask me this or other machine shops, and again not a relevant question if they really know what they are doing.

As to your friend mastercammiester, I don't want to give the wrong impression here so let me say this: MOST businesses fail in the first year! period! I never said it was going to be a cakewalk and most likely it will fail no matter what you do...

My first 5 years was pure hell and I wouldn't wish it on anyone, but I made it through even with about 10 veteran machine shops going BK in my area.

There are allot of factors some that you can prepare for and others that no one can, but most if not all of us business owners are Type A males and aching for a challenge (no egos here ! ;) ) Probably why NC and me have a difference of opinion. :)

If you want to fight the fight and do things your own way (to a point ) then you get into the race. otherwise work for someone else!

And always when buying used machinery, buy the best you can afford but expect to get junk, and when starting out expect to fix allot of things yourself because even on a new machine, Downtime is a real killer and the service guys are always a day or more away.

.....My first 5 years was pure hell and I wouldn't wish it on anyone, but I made it through even with about 10 veteran machine shops going BK in my area.

There are allot of factors some that you can prepare for and others that no one can, but most if not all of us business owners are Type A males and aching for a challenge (no egos here ! ;) ) Probably why NC and me have a difference of opinion. :)

If you want to fight the fight and do things your own way (to a point ) then you get into the race. otherwise work for someone else!....

So true!!

I went broke after about 18 months. Really broke; I had been making out like gangbusters and spent all the money on new machines and overlooked paying taxes. The following year there was an economic downturn and I couldn't pay the taxes, I was not incorporated at that time so this was a personal tax debt. I shuttered the business, got a job and stayed one step ahead of the government garnisheeing my pay checks by changing jobs for two years until I had paid everything off and restarted the business fulltime again.

And MASTERCAMMASTER reminds me of "friends" I had who derided me for my dreams. Funny how their attitude has changed now that I am worth a lot more than them and have the free time and money to do things they cannot afford. Now 'I am lucky because I have my own business'.

My "dream" was to create a cam company - Did it on a shoestring and made a go of it in spite of some MAJOR challenges that got thrown in my way. Not the least of which were due to bad equipment choices, bad business decisions and bad customers.

When so much BAD goes on, how do you survive? Hard work, good clients and extremen efforts at working hard at doing exceptional work for the jobs you do have.

Re: do what I say, not what I do: to a point, that is true. Why? Simpley so that you or someone else will NOT make the same dumbass mistakes I made!!!! It is simply SUUUUPID to do the same thing and to expect different results - it don't work that way!!!

I can't/won't say whether it is better to buy or uuld your CNC - that is purely a $$$ versus time decision. If you have the time, you don't need to worry about the $$$ so spend it (time) crafting up your CNC. However, if you have to make parts and the rent payments, you don't have the luzury of time to afford to work on a science project - you need to make parts and money.

in such instances, working on a science project is counter productive to the prime objective - namely, paying bills. This is where legacy equipment can both save your ass and cost it. Good, funcitonal legacy equipment (a good bridgeport) is ALWAYS a good buy, especially compared to a chinese copy. However, when it comes to a CNC, service and functionality shold be a prime concern.

You can NOT rely on message boards to repair your machine. Some science projects can work that way but when you need to run parts, stuff has to work - and /or bet serviced and in a timely fashion. DIY repairs are OK for some stuff but, when parts are due, that is a headache that you don't need.

Did I make mistakes? yes. Would you or anyone want to repeat them? Why bother? The way i see this, it is a way to explain HOW TO do something as well as how NOT TO DO SOMETHING. I've don'e both....

I bought Bridgeprot DX32's as they are/were "legacy" based and proven technology. Adequate for the day? Yes. Adequate today? No. For what I paid fo the BPT, I could have spent a bit more and bought "new Haas' and not have to kiss some legacy equipment makers butts to get service on/for 10 year old "legacy" equipment that is technically "obsolete".

Trying to find a tech who'll fix/tune legacy BPT stuff on site ain't easy or cheap anymore - and support via phone, especially from "experts" isn't easy nor cheap to find either. That too is an expensive learning process - you're welcome to encouter your own fiasco'es just like we did. Yes, "do as I say, not as I did" otherwise, you're gonna make the same decisions I made about essentially the same hardware....

The choices become that of simply "make versus buy". Do you make your CNC or buy it??? The $$$ available drive many/most of thiese decisions. However, turn key machines that RUN have a higher probability of success of making parts than science projects. The bottom line is always this: are you investing in a hobby or a business???

YOu can take a TOTALLY different approach toward a hobby than you can for a business. Run one like its the other and it will inevitably take the wrong net direction. Spend the most that you can barely afford for equpment. Good equipment can be resold as it holds/retains value. Home brew/DIY stuff is OK for a project - I have a partial shop full of them. HOwever, the turn key machines are the ones that are making me money day after day. Doh....

Again, "Do As I SAY, NOT AS I DID...." Otherwise, you'll make the same mistakes I did - which is OK cuz I already know how to solve them when the time comes to do so AGAIN.....

Im not a machinist and never was, so Im not going to get involved in the above 'discussion', which I think have very good and relevant points on both sides that you should consider. :)
Regarding setting quotes....basically, figure out your base costs ....tooling, overheads, wear on your machinies, consumables, raw materials etc and add them all up. This is your break-even point on any individual job and the absolute minimum you can charge for the job without losing money. Its irrelevant if some guy down the road is charging less, if you match him you might as well give the items away for free because your at a loss. If that happens you need to figure out where his costs are lower so you can reduce your basic costs to match....anyway....once you have your break-even point, add in your wages and any markup. This will be profit. Thats a very basic overview. There are other considerations and costs depending upon you specific circumstances and location. Good luck. I really wish you the best. I'd agree that easing in part time is a good idea, I'm doing that at the moment myself...slowly! ;) L8rs.

.....Again, "Do As I SAY, NOT AS I DID...." Otherwise, you'll make the same mistakes I did - which is OK cuz I already know how to solve them when the time comes to do so AGAIN.....

NC; I have crapped on you in the past because of the attitude you display in some of your posts. Had you displayed the attitude you display in this one I would not have been tempted to yield to that urge. Why don't you keep things toned down like this all the time?

The only point in this post that is unrealistic is the bit I kept in the quote. Do you really expect someone who has the guts and get go to successfully establish own their own business to take outside advice no matter how good and well meaning it is. Starting your own business is a 'damn the torpedoes full speed ahead I see no signals' affair; to mangle a few nautical metaphors.

In response to Need a Mentor!

In my book you have to make the grade and pass muster before any potential mentor would take you on as a protigie!

All mine are long gone and now I am the mentor!

Best of Luck

GO FOR IT!

Try to use proper punctuation and grammar. I would rather buy a string of precise parts from somebody who at least spoke and wrote precisely.

I've moved from my 1000sf shop in Mariposa, California and now I'm looking to rent the house and shop to someone wanting out of the city.

The property, 6 acres, is on the boundry of National forest, legal deer hunting on the other side of my fence. The shop is 1000sf, heated and air conditioned. I have 200 amps of 3 phase power for the shop and another 100 amps single phase for the house. Seperate PG&E meters for both. Zoned for home business and up to 5 employees. I've been in business for 15 years there. UPS account is availible and did all of my materials and tooling coming in and parts going out.

So if you have machines and want to move to the country this might be an opportunity for you!

And get this, $1500 a month rent for everything!

You can contact me at vic_spm@sbcglobal.net
or my cell phone 209-613-8396

Thanks
Quick Vic

Try to use proper punctuation and grammar. I would rather buy a string of precise parts from somebody who at least spoke and wrote precisely.
Reply With Quote

Can you understand English?
Do you mean like this? Wow. That is a GORGEOUS gun.
Now i wanna get my timmy done up like that :P
I'd also like to hear how this finish is accomplished
Are you currently in an relationship?
Do you correct everyone like that?
Your FIRED!
Just kidding
Does your mother Know you talk like that?
Do you know what informal means?
Your not from here are you?

You sound like most of the fools that cant see the forest for the trees!
You cant sweat the small stuff Mat or you'll never see past your nose. (wrong)

sorry man I totaly aggree with Jimpac on tis one mon!

typo's are a ***** but you sood be able to red things tat are tiped rong!

get a brain!

....You sound like most of the fools that cant see the forest for the trees!
You cant sweat the small stuff Mat or you'll never see past your nose. (wrong)

You have the wrong end of the stick here.

If you are the shop owner looking for contracts you make sure that you treat the semi-literate guy who comes in the door with a poorly written scrawl just the same as the pin-stripe dude with a fancy RFQ. You don't know which is going to give you the million dollar job; it just might be the scruffy guy so you had better be able to understand his poor communication no matter how badly written.

But you have to remember it doesn't work the other way. As a customer if I have two competing quotes, one well written and clear the other with spelling errors, typos and poor grammar I am going to favor the well written one. One thing for sure I can conclude from spelling errors and typos is the guy is too lazy to even turn on spell check. If he is unable to be precise in the area of providing communication why should I expect him to be precise in following my communications and completing my job.

This goes along with having a tidy shop. Old machines, new machines don't matter much. What is important is that the workspace is not cluttered and even if there is no separate office there is a space for customers to sit at a desk and discuss things. And the desk is kept tidy. It is not necessary to have things spotlessly clean, actually they should not be because that suggest you don't have enough work so either the potential customer will squeeze your prices or go elsewhere because they wonder why you cannot get work.

It is all a matter of image.

Ah! but this is just a forum and we are exchanging ideas I don't know that he was talking about quotes and what not!

On an informal forum I would think that posting for no other reason than to aggravate someone for typo's is unnecessary! and open for flaming!

For customers I agree wholeheartedly. I always use the spell checker thingy whopper!

But they haven't invented a grammar checker (that works) and definitely not one that checks colloquialisms.

Note to Geof:

Attotudes displayed vary as a funcion of stress levels at a particular time. Hence, some days are better than others when it comes to "attitude displays" over time. The attitude displayed also depends on the level of frustration that I may unintentionally display toward the same well worn questions, especially those asked over and over....

The "how do you start from scratch" question is well worn and quite tiresome. Every body knows how to do it right - as in buy the best equipment, with money as no object. However that don't happen. Hence, the guy who's dreaming looks for a way to do it economicaly or, perhaps, on the cheap. Doing so economiically is one thing, doing it on the cheap usually costs and cost DEARLY.

There are ramifications to doign things poorly and/or cheaply. I've done both. I've fought the fight and it really, after all is said and done, is not worth it. Apparently, I've displayed a penchangt for preferrring to do things PERFECTLY. Perhaps. But, after kluging thru stuff over time, I've learned that kluging sucks and usually ends up costing you more in the long run (bad parts, poor reputation, lost time, and so on and so forth). I have more learning expereiences to share but you surely get/got the pont.

And there is where the intoleranced for "lameness" comes into play. After chasing good after bad, you simply grow tired of doing thiings LAMELY. It literally pays to not kluge thigns. Again, been there, done that - DO AS I SAY, NOT AS I DID. Not unless you want to experience the same mistakes/learning fiascoes/experiences. But why reinvent the wheel????

There are probably HUNDREDS of ways to start shops - many bad, mony good and some of helter skelter schemes. This much is certain - if you don't know what to do, jumping into a technically challengeing new career hoping for OJT to make things work is a sure recipe for ruin. IT is hard enough to get things going and running when you KNOW what to do and how to do it - add OJT to the mix and you're crusing for a money losing nighmare.

Simply put, learn how to machine FIRST. Buy good (no buy GREAT) equpment and LEARN how t use it PROPERLY. Then and only then, should you feel "qualified" to tread softly into the realm of CNC machining on a professional basis.

Asking "how do I start a shop" so you can "start a shop" is seems to be a bit too basic of a startiing point. I'd hope that a person knows a lot more about what's involved as it takes more than a roof and CNC equipment to affect a viable CNC machine shop.

The option: go to work as an apprentice, learn from the ground up (literally) and you too can learn from the school of hard knocks which is how some of us learned - and developed a poor attitude as demonstrated by our "attitude" when answering questions.

Try me on another day and I might have a better bedside manner - I just learned that some promised parts won't be done when promised and now I've got delivery problems I hadn't planned on having to deal with. Ah, the challenges of trying to achieve perfection.....

I agree with that 100%

Simper Fy

Just a few thoughts.

I am not a machinist but rather a hobbyist when it comes to this field. One thing I am very familiar with is the mining industry and keep my thoughts to your location and what work may bring for you.

First off, operating mines - coal or otherwise rarely seek quantities of identical machined parts unless they are sourcing unique roof support items for which they own the prints. They will need machined parts for breakdown items or replacement parts. These will most likely be one offs and copied either from the part or original prints. Based on your comment about the local shops, they are probably meeting these needs with manual machining equipment. I would expect that if you were to start up business, you would be competing for some of this bread and butter business. Alot of the existing relationships are just that - long relationships which can be tough to crack.

Get involved with any local manufacturing and or mining groups that meet socially and meet people. Read. Books, newspapers, trade magazines, anything that seems remotely related.

Your current job should be a decent point from which you can see the needs in your local mining economy - who's prospering, who's not and who pays. Find out who has been trying to source the larger jobs. Find the availability of materials, transportation costs, etc.

For the time, live below your means - save the cash needed, be a sponge to any bit of information, and be ready to take advantage of opportunity in what ever form it may take.

Just my 2 cents.

BMG

In reply to Geof's blog. Here in the bay area Ca. old or new machines do matter.
There is a thing called a vendor survey. Northrup, Lockheed, Applied Materials all have them. You cannot get work form many companies unless you survive their vendor survey.
Nowadays, ISO 9000 is a requirment to get work from many companies.
I check out my customers before I go to them and do my homework to learn as much as I can before I do work for them, especially when they pay.
I see you are from Canada, I'm sure Canada doesn't have the competition we have here in silicon valley Ca. California has a population of 36,457,549, Canada has a population of 33,390,141 I bet California has millions more machine shops too. When I think of Canada, I think of ice.

If your talking large military contracts or aerospace your talking a whole different field.

And small start up machine shops typical don't get that kind of work.

I can tell you Ive never had to do a survey and I have done work for these companies through other companies not directly..... they care more for process control than types or ages on machines..

Its the document trail they are looking for so that all QC is accountable and controllable.

ISO xxx anything is outside the province of a start up shop. Unless you have specific goals in mind and a specific client list. Otherwise its a waste of money and time (and f'n paper)

I've worked for ISO 9000 companies before and I am not ISO anything so its possible to do .

My Dad started his company in a one car garage with two burned up Bridgeport series 1 mills. He bought them from a company called Polar Chips!
Remember the ICEE Machines, Polar Chips was the manufacturer. They used a lot of magnesium and the guys in the shop started a mag fire that burnt the place to the ground! Dad and his partner Bill Hudnall both tool and die makers bought the machines for a song.

I was only nine and remember running those mills after school. They got some high volume jobs from Western Oil, that was pretty cheap but made the bills and enough to build a 30 x 40 shop building. After working second shifts at Genral Dynamics in Fort Worth TX they would get a few hours sleep and hit again. That was almost 50 years ago, but I have found that the same hard work and what they call networking to day still work about the same. Work your tale off learn more every day always improve your skill and craft and you too have a chance to make it in the machine shop business!

BMG has it right!!

Im really self concious about my grammer and spelling since the last time I posted and MATLIF made me crazy with anger! He wouldnt make it 5 minutes in my world!
Can you understand?

Keep trying and something will work out for you

Hey anyone hear from MATLIF, I was probrably not spelling anything corectlie

When I think of Canada, I think of ice.[/QUOTE]
Cheers Cousin, we like it when you think that.

"don't give up your daytime job", what sound advice for a noobie shop owner.

First off, if you're basing your extra income on jobbing shop work you'll be competing with the pocket money earners and retirees who will work for peanuts just to keep occupied, unless you're the only machinist for miles around.

One of the biggest outgoings you'll have will be the rental on the workshop.
A lot of guys I know worked from home in tin garages, with nothing more than an old centre lathe and a welder, which is fine if you're making garden furniture or gates etc.

You will need to be very clear what kind of work you're going to do.
Buying the wrong machinery because it's cheap is like climbing up a ladder to find it's leaning against the wrong wall.

The job comes first, the machinery to do it is next.
"There's many a good tune played on an old fiddle" is probably getting closer to the shoestring approach of buying old machinery and wringing a few more years out of it even if it's a bit slow.

The important thing to realise is if you have a specific work type planned and orders that will eventuate, then it is crucial to preplan on machinery type and finance required, whether it be CNC type or manual machines, otherwise you'll be cranking handles for a living whereas the work might warrant going CNC even if it means taking older used equipment.

CNC machines rarely can be relied on if they're a bit long in the tooth.
When you need CNC capability to get the production out it is lunacy to buy an old clapped out yesterdays hero and expect it to perform like a "newun", especially when the tolerances are tight.

Oh yes, last but not least, know your limitations and capabilities.
Don't take on precision work if you don't know what precision is, especially large volume production that nobody else would touch.

The same goes for delivery schedules, don't take on a load of work with a rediculous lead time if you can't deliver on time.
Nothing irritates a customer more than promised delivery that goes overtime.

And very last, DON'T BORROW MONEY FROM FRIENDS OR RELATIVES.
Ian.

I haven't read any of the responses from the OP so that I could give my own thoughts without intervention.

First, what grabbed me was "how do you quote a job". If you don't know that you are screwed. You may have been in machining for 15 years, but do you see the POs? do you order and/or quote materials? Do you know how long stuff takes to do on what machines, and how much that is worth? You seem at a serious disadvantage here, 15 years in the biz and you don't know how much stuff costs, just being honest.

The other thing I see, is that you are worried about loans, leases, big dollar software. The thing you should really be worried about is CUSTOMERS. You can have the biggest and best machines, the biggest and worst loans, the biggest and best software, but without CUSTOMERS, you are screwed. No work = No money = You are screwed.

Things you do have going for you, experience, and a 40 hour paycheck. The rest can come if you work it right.

I don't think I'm alone, going out on your own is SCARY, I'm confident, but I'm still scared. All I need is to pay the bills, put some beers in the frig and feed the critters. Even that gets tight sometimes.

3K comes in, it doesn't go in your pocket, it goes to a new to me/used forklift. 15K comes in, not in your pocket, it goes to a new/USED machine. 4K comes in, not in your pocket, goes to rent and electricity and heat. 2K comes in, it goes to taxes, SS, business license. 10K comes in, it goes on the American Express for all the stuff you couldn't pay for last month because you bought a new/used machine.

Its a tough road, but it sure beats working for the monkey f**k I worked for before.

.......3K comes in, it doesn't go in your pocket, it goes to a new to me/used forklift. 15K comes in, not in your pocket, it goes to a new/USED machine. 4K comes in, not in your pocket, goes to rent and electricity and heat. 2K comes in, it goes to taxes, SS, business license. 10K comes in, it goes on the American Express for all the stuff you couldn't pay for last month because you bought a new/used machine.

Its a tough road, but it sure beats working for the monkey f**k I worked for before.

Hang in there bubba. :) When you get past that stage the rewards are worth all the effort.

P.S. I used Visa and discovered how to keep getting my credit limit up; let it get near the limit then make a big payment...often times then I found my limit had been increased which gave me access to a bit more money. Now this is a crazy way to finance a business but if you have no other choice.

Eventually I paid everything off and it has been years since those days.

Geof, Thanx, its getting better. We are finally in a real shop, been here about 4 months, lease to buy, dirt cheap, 3500sqft, 1 acre fenced and barb wired, and there was already a compressor and air lines here. The work is rolling in, we've basically stopped quoting, and when we do its really high, they keep coming back though.

The bread and butter since June has been a '84 Acroloc and a '78 Wells-Index with a bandit controller. The next step is 3phase power, we can't run everything at the same time on the phase converters(at least there is 400amps of 220 coming in).

For those who say you can't do it on the cheap, you can, its just slow and aggravating, and you need to be able to fix your own stuff.

For under 30k
Acroloc with tool holders and collets, 4th axis, runs great, but limited.
Wells-index with bandit controller and tool holders.
Mazak qt20
Star swiss machine with collets, tools and 2 hydrobars (only one hydraulic unit)
Fadal 4020, thru spindle coolant, extended Z, 10k rpm
GMC cabover diesel, 18ft flatbed (delivery truck)
15k lb Clark forklift.
and for fun an old Van Norman.

If the Fadal didn't come in last week, we would have been under $15k, you just have to be lucky and smart. Its not the best way, or the fastest way, but its a start, its worked so far.



A piece of advice for the OP in response to a previous post on quoting.

You can absolutely eat your shirt on stuff that looks easy. Just because there are only 4 dimensions on a print does not mean it should go for a dollar. Where I used to work, it happened all the time, the owner saw an easy print and undercut everybody, then we got to spend 27, 10 hour days on a job that totaled $1875, plus we had to buy material, twice, because he ordered the wrong stuff (restock fee plus shipping was more $$ than keeping it), ate up over $1200 in inserts just for the drill (on the phone with the tech people almost every day). It looked easy from the print, but it sure wasn't, what a waste.

.... The work is rolling in, we've basically stopped quoting, and when we do its really high, they keep coming back though. .....

For those who say you can't do it on the cheap, you can, its just slow and aggravating, and you need to be able to fix your own stuff.....

The one thing that cannot be cheap is the quality of what goes out the door and if you cannot discourage people by quoting high you have got that side tied down. :)