Hi, I'm looking at picking up a mini mill and was trying decide between one of the Chinese mills like the Cummings, or a Sherline (5xxx series). Looks like the Sherline is maybe a more precision-built machine? I understand that the Chinese mills require some mods to make them usable (such as for backlash). Just don't want to go too far down the Chinese path spending time and money to make it better, when maybe I could have just spent more and got a Sherline with DRO. I mean til you add DRO, etc to the Cummings it adds up quickly anyway. But the Cummings looks more rugged. Any words of advice? Greatly appreciated, thanks.

I think you sort of hit the nail on the head. The Chinese mills (X2 and X2) are bigger, heavier and sturdier than mills like the Sherline. So they are capable of larger jobs. However, they also require a little more tlc when you first get them.

So what should you choose? Well you need to decide what you intend to use the mill for. It is easy to outgrow a mill, if you haven't thought through your planned uses. How big are the things you would like to mill? What materials do you intend to cut?

If you are like most of us, you probably can't afford and don't have a place for a mill for which you would never have a job "too big".

Alan

Alan,
You got that right, I have very little space, and trouble justifying spending a lot considering I am a newbee (don't have a lot to spend anyway).
I got the same impression on the Chinese mills, as far as appearing to be capable of bigger jobs (than the Sherline). I'm leaning toward the Cummings or HF. I'm ok with it needing a little tlc at first, just don't want to throw a stupid amount of money at it getting it setup with DRO, ballscrews, etc. I would also like to follow-through and add CNC, but not right away. Lots to consider and learn. Thanks for the comments. Appreciate any advice I can get.

Steve

Ya know what I like about the Sherline (besides it being cute) is that you can put it anywhere. It is nicely made and I,ve been impressed with it from day one. As for the x2(sieg) its got its good points too, r8 tooling (means you can use a lot of different cutters and such. Figure out what ya wanna make then decide on a milling machine.

Why don't you look into a TAIG? It's a great balance between a Chinese X2/X3 & a sherline. It's not quite as rugged as an X2/X3 but much more precise. It's much more rugged than a sherline.

I've posted a lot of video's of my TAIG on my CNC blog: www.nyccnc.com. Most of my work has been with delrin (plastic) thus far - but my enclosure arrives soon and then I'll be working with aluminum.

As for the TAIG's - check out www.lococnc.com - they sell the stock TAIG with some great add-on features.

Steve, one thing to note about the Sherline, and I hope the Taig also is that they do retain their value and can be sold later for close to your first investment. I have Sherline lathes and mills and have been using them since the mid 1970's. These light weight machines have supported me in the proffessions of camera repair and clockmaking. They will not hog off massive amounts of steel but do fair for themselves in brass and aluminium. What ever you pay for the machine it seems that you are bound to invest a similar amount in to your tooling. Some tooling will transfer to larger machines, some is pretty specific to the Sherline or Taig.
In short I don't think you would be wrong to start with the smaller machines and learn what you do need in the larger machine.

GeneK

Alan,
You got that right, I have very little space, and trouble justifying spending a lot considering I am a newbee (don't have a lot to spend anyway).
I got the same impression on the Chinese mills, as far as appearing to be capable of bigger jobs (than the Sherline). I'm leaning toward the Cummings or HF. I'm ok with it needing a little tlc at first, just don't want to throw a stupid amount of money at it getting it setup with DRO, ballscrews, etc. I would also like to follow-through and add CNC, but not right away. Lots to consider and learn. Thanks for the comments. Appreciate any advice I can get.

Steve

Gene's right,

I've spent more on tooling than I did my HF mini mill. The mini mill requires that you upgrade a few things right off the top. Most notably are the belt drives systems, the drawbar, and in your case, a dro.
The belt drive should be considered immediately. The dro can be built pretty cheaply if you look at a shumatech.
I do like the R8 tooling on the X2 though. When I eventually upgrade to an X3, or bridgie or whatever, the tooling stays the same.

Yep I agree with Tikka, Gene and dang. The Taig is nice too a little more rugged than Sherline, and both machines do retain value upon resale. The x2 r-8 tooling as dang mentioned is transferable should you upgrade to a bigger r-8 tooled mill.

Thanks to all for the replies. I'm like a sponge for any info I can get at this point. I've been trying to find a good site with more info on the Taig, but no luck yet. The sites I've found are all pretty crude and don't even have a larger image of the mills. Makes the Taig appear to be some cobbed-up thing. I'd have a hard time spending more money on something with so little info on it, as compared to say Sherline or the Chinese mills. Any better links on the Taig?

Jbroni - did you take a look at my TAIG blog? www.nyccnc.com. I have lots of videos & pictures. If you need anything specific (photo's video's), please let me know and I'll post.

tikka308,
Yes, thanks for the link. I've been checking out all your posts and videos. I very much appreciate your step by step posts, useful for a newbee like myself. I was just expecting more from the sites that sell the mill. Even the 'lococnc' site is lacking a lot as far as real pics and descriptions of models and options. Not nearly as informative as Sherline, or the Chinese mills. The 'taigtools' site itself is even pretty sparse for info, looks like a grade-schooler put it together. A lot of money to spend based on so little info. One thing I didn't see was a capability to have hand crank wheels on the back of the motors. I know hossmachine shows a nice CNC conversion of a Chinese mill that still allows manual operation. That's the config I would like to shoot for. I was imagining getting a mill, setting it up with DRO. Then later adding the CNC control. Does that sound like a reasonable strategy?

Thanks,
Steve

The "ultimate" TAIG page is www.cartertools.com. It's a basic webpage that will require some more digging to see everything - but they is a plethora of information.

What's true is that sherline spends a lot of money on marketing. If you read this site, I think you'll find very few (if any) people will recommend a sherline over a taig. Sherline's just aren't rigid.

I went with a TAIG over a chinese for two reasons: 1) a TAIG is more accurate and 2) I'm space constrained. That being said, there are some great company's that really spruce-up the chinese mills and make them into solid machines.

Nick Carter, who runs cartertools.com and posts frequently, is an expert. I'm almost certain I've come across photo's on his site where folks have kept hand-crank wheels on the steppers for manual control.

I had a Sherline for quite a few years. Upgraded to the latest 2000 series a couple of years ago, and was dissapointed. The stock 54xx series was alot more rigid. Also, with any of them, because they do not weigh anything at all, light passes are all you can take, and depending on the part you are trying to make, that could be a long time. Since then went with a Sieg X2, and there was quite a lot of refitting to make it usuable, but its still too light. R8 tooling is great, but not if the mill cannot hold anything rigid enough.
Finally ordered a Wabeco after using a friends a few times. Not a begginners mill in terms of money, but it should last me quite a long time, i hope.
Joe

Having checked eBay daily for the past few months, I would say that the Sieg machines are holding value as well as Sherlines are. They don't even last long on Craigslist. Used ones were selling for >$250+S&H (often >$100) on eBay. I got a new HF 7x10 for $330 on sale with a 15% coupon two weeks ago.

People say the Chinese tools need a lot of TLC to work well. My lathe is indicating less than .001" TIR at the chuck after nothing but degreasing. All the gibs were really well-adjusted right out of the box. I'm sure the Sherlines are delightful tools to work with, if you stay inside their limits, which to me were far too small.

I had a Sherline for quite a few years. Upgraded to the latest 2000 series a couple of years ago, and was dissapointed. The stock 54xx series was alot more rigid. Also, with any of them, because they do not weigh anything at all, light passes are all you can take, and depending on the part you are trying to make, that could be a long time. Since then went with a Sieg X2, and there was quite a lot of refitting to make it usuable, but its still too light. R8 tooling is great, but not if the mill cannot hold anything rigid enough.
Finally ordered a Wabeco after using a friends a few times. Not a begginners mill in terms of money, but it should last me quite a long time, i hope.
Joe

Joe, one thing to note, the 2000 when set to the same extension from the base as the 5400 has similar rigidity. Yes the Sherlines take light cuts. Small pickup trucks so not carry the loads of a semi truck. If you are hauling large loads buy a semi. If you are doing light machining in brass and aluminium Sherline, Taig, HF and other light machines make sense.

GeneK

Gene
You are correct. In the beggining, the Sherline was fine for making small projects and learning the steps in making the small parts. A large part of the fun getting your first lathe or mill is just that. Its just after a number of years, you learn what the capabilities of the machine are, and move on. Too bad Sherline or Taig does not make a lathe or mill in this medium to large size tabletop stuff. I bet it would be good.
Joe

Gene
You are correct. In the beggining, the Sherline was fine for making small projects and learning the steps in making the small parts. A large part of the fun getting your first lathe or mill is just that. Its just after a number of years, you learn what the capabilities of the machine are, and move on. Too bad Sherline or Taig does not make a lathe or mill in this medium to large size tabletop stuff. I bet it would be good.
Joe

I don't know how many times when talking to Joe Martin at Sherline I kept asking him why he didn't make the spindle just a little larger, the swing a little more, the bed a little wider the machine a little heavier. He always said that any thing like these would push the cost to manufacture up. The current machines fit a niche and price point that they can fill. I have never had the space for anything much larger that Sherline. Locally we have a 'fun' group of eclectic guys including blacksmiths, flint nappers, damascus steel makers, live steamers(3 1/2 and 7 inch scale) bowling ball mortars and black powder cannons etc. Through this group I have access to larger machines when needed. It pays to network.

GeneK

off topic i know but "flint nappers, damascus steel makers"???
help a stupid person out here please

Sounds like Gene's crew is a cross between the Whole Earth catalog and Anarchist's Cookbook crowds. The Damascus steel he's referring to is probably home-forged "pattern welded" steel which has a very distinctive look with lots of thin curly layers. True Damascus steel was made in the middle east during the golden era of the Islamic Caliphate, starting from ~900AD. Researchers are still not sure how it was made but swords made this way were extremely sharp and durable. They also looked like pattern-welded steel, but the two are entirely different critters. The process has since been lost to history. Flint napping (IIRC) is making chipped stone tools. Seems like the more software we use, the more some of us want to know that we're still capable of the ancient arts that got us here. I'm always fascinated when I read how early machinists of the steam era got things done with the (comparatively) crude tooling available to them.

I've had a Sherline 3 axis vertical benchtop mill for about a year and a half; the CNC version is sold under the Microkinetics name. It's performed well; I use it in my custom knife buisness for carbon steel, brass, nickel silver, aluminum, stabilized woods, and composites. I bought the "turnkey" system, which includes software, power supply, a low end computer, etc.

Considering it as an entry level machine, It's done OK for the price. I think the software is a little quirky, and program all my own files. I don't like the arrangement they have for anti-backlash adjustment, but that's just a personal opinion. Otherwise, it's been a lot of fun to use, and does indeed take a minimum of bench space.

Tom

Hi,
Thanks again for all the responses. I'm still researching mini-mills trying to make a decision. My ultimate goal is to have a mini-mill set up with motors for CNC, and to still have manual wheels on the back of the motors somehow (like hossmachine did on his X2 conversion). I'm new to this, but it seems to me that retaining manual capability would be useful for those quick operations that don't need to be over-complicated by using the computer/software. I mean say you needed to cut a quick slot, it seems a little rube-goldberg to do it with the CNC. Does this make sense or am I missing something? Most of what I've seen is either manual or CNC, not set up to allow both. Conversions like Hoss's seem to be an exception. I spoke with Taig and they said I would have to switch it back and forth (ie. swap the manual wheels and motors/mounts), and that I couldn't have both. Can't it be as simple as mounting the wheels on the rear shaft of the motor, and have some sort of DRO?

You can get what are known as "dual shaft" motors which have a shaft protruding from the back that you can attach a crank wheel onto. If the motors are direct-driving the shafts this might or might not be an easy option. I am looking at converting a mostly-stock Sieg X1 to CNC and I think it would be pretty easy to do on this since the motors are direct-driving the stock leadscrews.

I guess once you have the whole CNC rig set up though there isn't as much reason to run the mill manually as opposed to driving it using manual controls on the PC. Although, by hand you do get tactile feedback that you can respond to instantly (i.e. slow down, monkey boy!). If you're new to milling like I am then probably best to start with a manual setup to develop a feel for the machine and materials so you know better how to drive it under CNC.

Jbroni - I had the same idea as you when I started this process - I wanted hand-control for basic operations. I decided against it (for the same reasons you are finding - it's not really possible to keep hand cranks on motors without issues).

I can't tell you how happy I am i went without them. They are, IMHO, pointless. I still do simple operations very often (i.e. slot cutting, fly, etc). I simply program (in notepad) the movement, feedrate & spindle speed - and I'm new to G-code! I'm not in front of my mill, but I think the code is as simple as:
M03 S1500 (M03 turns the spindle on, S1500 rotates the spindle at 1500 RPM)
G01 X2.5 F5 (this moves the X axis +2.5 inches at 5 IPM
M05 (spindle off, i think)

So easy!

Plus, by having the CNC mill control the motion, you will achieve smoother feedrates & surface finish!

Jbroni - I had the same idea as you when I started this process - I wanted hand-control for basic operations. I decided against it (for the same reasons you are finding - it's not really possible to keep hand cranks on motors without issues).

I can't tell you how happy I am i went without them. They are, IMHO, pointless.

What issues!?!?
I've had handles on mine since day one with no issues at all.
Dual shaft motors with handles are the only way to go.
Not only do they let you move an axis when not under power, but they also act as dampers.
I can get 10 more IPM with handles on there than not, I've tested it.
What are you going to do if there is a problem with your drivers or PC, believe me it happens.
You'd have a useless hunk of metal on your bench and I can still get a job done till it's fixed.
Why limit your options when dual shafts are only a couple more bucks?
Case in point this weekend. I still have to replace my 4th axis driver but I need it to tap a lot of holes.
I've swapped the Y axis cable over to drive the spindle.
When the X axis gets to the end of a row, I'll manually move the Y axis over to the next row
then start the program again.
I can get the tooling plate done and move on instead of waiting till payday.
Dual shafts with handles, the only way to go IMHO.
Hoss

Hoss - sounds like you've got a winner! I have heard of people having issues with handles - either causing steps to be lost due to the flywheel effect or being required to disable the servo before using.

My point was less to badmouth handles but rather to explain to a fellow newcomer that I had similar reservations about no manual controls, but with jogging and simple gcode, I feel that I have no need to them.

BTW - kudos on your ATC! I've been following your videos!

I'm ambivalent on the handwheel issue; the Sherline (Microkinetics) unit came equipped with them, and I had the idea I might like to use them once in a while. Like Tikka308, I found that a little quick programming was a better substitute for just about anything I'd have used the wheels for. Also, I've accquired the habit of looking frequently to make sure no tools or other objects have wandered into the area where the Y axis wheel rotates, since the Sherline is so low in profile that objects can get between the little crank handle and the benchtop, and I wouldn't want to jam the motor. Most of the coarse "manual" controlling I do on the unit is with the jog controls. Having said all that, I haven't gotten around to removing them, either.

Tom

I have dual shaft on my taig but not hand cranks on the end. I have been told that because they can cause issues.

I have instead thumb knobs that are perfectly concentric /symetrical so they will not spin off balance. They can be used for positioning etc.