For many months now, I have been getting emails, eBay comments, and private messages here on CNCzone requesting larger and stronger routers! Now I don't have any problem with building them, but from the beginning I have tried to make the most precision and rigid unit while keeping the cost down. The Mini-Router and Midi-Routers are the final products of this endeavor.
After a little research and cost analysis, I have concluded that a precision, CNC router with an X-Axis travel of 24.685", Y-Axis travel of 24.685", Z-Axis travel of 10.512", along with Preloaded Ball Screws would have an initial cost of over $2800 just for the THK Linear rails and the NOOK ball screws & nuts. The raw aluminum material needed to support all the linear rails, would cost and additional $550.
So that now totals $3350 for materials alone! Now add all the labor needed to manufacture all the aluminum parts, machine the ends of the hardened ball screws, and another $50 for screws & dowel pins.
I would hate to invest all that money and time to build one unit that would need to sell for close to $5000, and have no one in this current economy that can afford it!
Building a machine of this size using the THK rails, could also be made from Low Carbon steel with a zinc plating, and have a slightly lower material cost, but steel is much harder to work with, and consumes more cutters!

What is your opinion on such an expensive CNC Router?

Eric
WidgitMaster

Why not do a setup with R&P , like ez-router?

That would slash material cost big time.


.

MSC #00373126 (http://www1.mscdirect.com/CGI/NNSRIT?PMPXNO=3423960&PMT4NO=32214721) $185.87 ea., 2 required equals: $ 371.74 plus S&H
MSC #00373134 (http://www1.mscdirect.com/CGI/NNSRIT?PMPXNO=3423961&PMT4NO=32214721) $414.32 ea., 4 required equals: $1657.28 plus S&H

Why not do a setup with R&P , like ez-router?

That would slash material cost big time.


.


What is R&P?

Sorry, rack & pinion. :)

.

Something I think a lot of folks would like to see would be a 24*24" tabletop router/dremel machine in a kit form, that would also cut down on cost.

You could also outsource the main table have it built with steel (welded), keep it local to you, then you build only the odd & ends to finish the kit.

That would give you more time, & allow you to ship larger number of machines out the door,


.

The K2 25x25 is about $4500, with 5" of Z travel. They use ABBA instead of THK, which probably saves on costs. You might want to check out pricing on HiWin rails, from www.automation4less.com. Also, what about going with Nook's precision acme screws. Should be just as accurate as ballscrews, and a bit cheaper.

Something I think a lot of folks would like to see would be a 24*24" tabletop router/dremel machine in a kit form, that would also cut down on cost.

You could also outsource the main table have it built with steel (welded), keep it local to you, then you build only the odd & ends to finish the kit.

That would give you more time, & allow you to ship larger number of machines out the door,


.

Even if I build a 12x12 router, it is best to ship it in pieces, as UPS has a tendency to drop everything just to hear it crack on the ground!

The word KIT is rather ambiguous, as that is easily perceived as having all the electronics included! And that is totally outside my capacity!

Also, to build a 24x24 out of steel, would need to be able to support a 1/2" dia tool Milwaukee Router motor.

Not sure my opinion is worth much as I have no experience with a cnc router, but that is about to change in the next two weeks.

From my point of view as a new user just getting into CNC as a hobby.

When I think of cnc routing as a hobby the first thing that comes to mind is cutting wood. After spending some time reading the CNCZone I realized I don’t need the machine I though I needed (wanted). As a new user buying my first cnc machine I would have a hard time justifying $5000 + with the cutting area you listed knowing I was going to use a router or other low end cutting tool on itand still have to add motors/drivers and interface card.. Not that I would not jump on a bigger machine that you made. I would love to be able to afford a Rolex but on my Timex budget this is not going to happen.

I am finally getting a cnc router and going to use it as a hobby tool, but if the CNC god slaps me on the side of the head and the unexpected event happens that I could end up making a few nickels with it, my plans would most likely change.

widgitmaster i love your machines, don't take this in the wrong way, its more of a compliment. i see your cnc machines more as a work of art, a show of craftsman ship, kind of like a Ferrari, it does everything you need or want it to, but i wouldn't want to put a scratch on it. now a cnc machine doesn't need to have every single component hand crafted from a block of aluminum or steel in order to be high quality and an accurate machine. you can build a much simpler machines that function just like your previews ones, without the high cost of making costume made parts, for the machine to be cost effective you can use off the shelf square tubing and flat stock for the frame, with the right dimensions where all you have to do is cut them to length and either weld them in or bolt them down, to keep the labor and cost down. mass purchasing components in the new but old stock of linear rails and blocks, or round precision shaft and pillow bearings as well as the electronics, till your machines start to sell enough to be able to buy, to the current year components. there are ways to make it cheap, but great. specially with your skills, and a bit of engineering and the keep it simple principle, im confident you'll be able to come up with a large, simple, accurate unit, on the cheap side.
good luck, so very looking forward to one of your larger machines.

widgitmaster i love your machines, don't take this in the wrong way, its more of a compliment. i see your cnc machines more as a work of art, a show of craftsman ship, kind of like a Ferrari, it does everything you need or want it to, but i wouldn't want to put a scratch on it. now a cnc machine doesn't need to have every single component hand crafted from a block of aluminum or steel in order to be high quality and an accurate machine. you can build a much simpler machines that function just like your previews ones, without the high cost of making costume made parts, for the machine to be cost effective you can use off the shelf square tubing and flat stock for the frame, with the right dimensions where all you have to do is cut them to length and either weld them in or bolt them down, to keep the labor and cost down. mass purchasing components in the new but old stock of linear rails and blocks, or round precision shaft and pillow bearings as well as the electronics, till your machines start to sell enough to be able to buy, to the current year components. there are ways to make it cheap, but great. specially with your skills, and a bit of engineering and the keep it simple principle, im confident you'll be able to come up with a large, simple, accurate unit, on the cheap side.
good luck, so very looking forward to one of your larger machines.

Thanks for your input PowerNaudio!
Funny you should say that, as off-the-shelf items were the motivating reason behind my learning to make things for myself! They have always fallen short of my expectations, and seem to lack the precision I like or need!

Now, for the Keep it simple principle. That was exactly how I approached the Mini-Routers, and they are very accurate and rigid for their price. But any router with a travel over 12" needs to have a stronger, more supported slide mechanism. Thus the need to use a THK (or equivalent) Linear Slide Block system.
Widgit

Widgit as far as I know I have never posted on one of your build threads but I do have a suggestion for you now. I use an old Digital Tool router, which to my knowledge is the first kit machine offered in the US or maybe the world.

It uses rack and pinion for the drive motion and dual vee wheels and v-rail for the rail system. I have run this machine thousands of hrs and the only problems I ever had was a design flaw. I have never had a problem with the r&p nor the dual vee wheels. TEA is a company that advertises here on the Zone, take a look at the vee wheels. I don't think you will be dissappointed.

I hoping to build a machine between now and the first of the year and it will in all likelyhood have dual vees and a belt drive......just because I want to try it!:D

Mike

I have to agree with PowerNaudio. Your machines are works of art. I think that your instinct is good in that as much as we all would love to see a bigger machine I doubt people are really ready to pay for it. I doubt that once you get up to the size of other commercial vendors you could stay competitive cost wise. I don't know what the market is for a Super Deluxe router table. I don't see a lot of K2CNC machines, I suspect because they are just too expensive for the hobbyist. Sears sold tons of their POS Carvewright machines. As limited and ridiculous as they are, they hit a sweet spot price wise ($1500-$2000).

From reading the posts on this site over the last year or so, it appears to me that the Holly Grail for many hobbyist is a machine with a cutting area of 2x4 to 3x5 (at least a quarter sheet of plywood), with supported rails, rapids in the +100ipm range, that comes in a kit (assembly only, no cutting) or as a complete unit for sub $2,000. Anyone able and willing to pull this off would have a brisk business.

Your machines are somewhat on the other end of the spectrum, although I don't think there is anyone on this forum that doesn't want one of your machines!!!

I've pondered this propensity for AL and have concluded that it is often chosen because it can be machined on light duty home equipment rather than it being the right material from a engineering view point. that may be a very valid reason for its choice, however we need to remember in these instances that building out of aluminum is a compromise brought on by light duty equipment constraints. Al's stronger by weight but not by volume and we're not building aircraft. Still is cheap, easier to fabricate, normalize and is tougher; a better engineering choice. Other factors like machining time, cutting tool economics and shipping costs play to the economic decision, but overall I'd guess steel would produce a better, less expensive machine. There is of course an easier way to wiggle out of the dilemma, just tell 'em its made of billet and double the price :D

Eric,

firstly, I would like to congratulate you on the attention to detail you place upon your machines. I haven't yet seen anyone make a complaint about a machine that they have received from you. The rest of us who don't have a Widgit machine...we constantly wipe our chins.

As you appear to be looking for new avenues in building less costly/larger machines are there other processes, such as casting your own rough blanks, that you may wish to explore?

The reason I say this is two-fold.

A) You could cut your machining time by finish-machining a cast part. E.G. fly-cutting a table, tidying up the t-slots, edges & mounting points, along with the same operations on gantry sides etc.

B) You could get to recycle the chips and convert them to new blanks, saving on initial outlay per machine.

The Widgit name is big around here. A Widgit machine is synonymous with very high quality, but a less-than-perfect machine in the creator's eye is still way above what the majority of buyers would be glad to own.

Look at what is sold on the shelves every weekend, and the quality/tolerances/painting of the castings etc. after machining. People buy these machines and don't think twice about the surface finish.

If the machine can hold a tolerance, the consumer is a very happy bunny.

There have been many statements similar to "I would be too scared to scratch/mark it." when talking about a Widgit machine. I think that maybe says something.

Food for thought.

Much respect to you Eric,

Mick.

Hey, where did all my capitals go in the previous post?

In my office, under the table I have a box overflowing with stuff, and in the back of my mind there is a list of unique characteristics associated with each item in that box! There are V-Groove bearings and rails, Rack & Pinions, THK Rails with dual blocks, brass acme nuts, Delrin acme nuts, ball screws & nuts, and numerous bearings and bushings. Also in the back of my mind is the capabilities of the workshop in my garage, and all the machine shops within driving distance. The various online vender's which sell tools, cutters, fasteners, and raw materials. But within all this clutter, there aren't any resources which offer casting of aluminum.
Now I have some experience with sand casting, but my home is not situated in a way that I could be smelting and smoking (stinking) up the neighborhood. So it would not be practical for me to create a foundry on my property. Therefore, grabbing a big block of metal and machining all surfaces until it looks exactly like one of my CAD drawings, is my best choice! If I have the same block machined in a local shop, they want a minimum of $90/hr to make it on a CNC mill or lathe, or $50/hr to have their manual machinist make it. So in order to keep the cost low, and the precision high, I have to make it myself!

But to build a 24"x24"x10" router in my shop, using the strongest materials such as steel, and still be able to keep the cost to a level where the DIY hobbyist can afford to buy it, is not easy! Right now the economy is really bad, and the cost of raw materials is at an all time high! This makes it even more complicated, and my mind frequents the list of contents under my bench! I have spent many hours in CAD trying to design slide mechanisms using V-Groove roller bearings & tracks, using acme screws & rack gears to move the components. The choices are vast, and If I'm going to commit to building something, I usually explore many choices.

Another valuable list is the many failures, flaws & weaknesses that have surfaced in my projects, as they are the best teachers! For example, an un-supported round linear rail with a distance of 24" would need to be around 1.5" in diameter to eliminate any flexing in the middle. Otherwise, the surface finish from the cutter is poor, and the cutters wear out quickly!

The design I have on my mind at the moment is a deviation of the Midi-Router, one that will give me a strong machine, with a longer travel in only one axis. But in order for me to make long parts on my mill, I had to buy a 2nd vise! I found a nice used Kurt 6" for under 3-bills.

X-Axis: 21.125"
Y-Axis: 8.250"
Z-Axis: 3.900"

This Wide-Router is the result of frequent requests for a long and narrow machine that can make guitar necks! But the quest to build a totally new design using precision linear slide blocks and ball screws is really getting under my skin! I have been pricing various linear components, and raw materials (mostly steel plates). The cost comparison is only a few dollars cheaper than aluminum, and I think I can get pre-ground steel plates up to 12" wide, but no longer than 24". The supplier quoted me $250 for a Blanchard ground hot roll steel plate that measures 24"x24"x5/8" Then all I would need to do is mill the edges square and the T-slots! The most expensive components are the Linear slide block and rails, as a set of 4pc 36" long and a set of 2pc 10" long would cost around $2400 in McMaster Carr.

To be continued.........
Widgit

X-Axis: 21.125"
Y-Axis: 8.250"
Z-Axis: 3.900"

Is exactly what I'm looking for.
Are you going to offer these?

Hey Widgit,
As always you are the Grand Master of this forum. I think that you put excellent quality into your work and that is where your high cost is. I recently had to put together some crap entertainment center together and almost everything was numbered and lettered and some half ass directions on putting it together. If your not already doing that then you could probably put these cnc machines into kit form without the half ass directions
:). Also it looks like your highest cost are the linear rails, have you thought Thompson rails? And aren,t you down in Melbourn? Isn,t there a big industrial salvage yard down there? Probably be a decent source of material. I also found a local steel erector company that sell steel and aluminum pretty cheap and I save on shipping. Maybe you could do the same!! Oh yeah have you ever read Joe Martin,s starting a business? Great advice. http://www.sherline.com/business.htm
Making Money the Old Fashioned Way, by Joe Martin

As always a most generous bow to you sir !!!

Hi Widjit - nice work as always of course.

As you move up to the next size router / mill, here are a few cheers from the bleachers:

1) Please consider to go to size 34 motors, or at least a way to deal with them in the design. It might not seem like it, but in many cases, the electronics cost more than the mechanicals, so it is handy to buy a bit larger motors / drivers than needed, and move them along as we go to larger and larger size setups.

2) The thing I like about Al, is that it will not rust in my garage like steel parts will. It might not seem like it, but we get a fair amount of damp winter weather here, and us hobby people tend to forget to keep things oiled sometimes. :confused:

Obviously, steel has a lot of strength / hardness advantage, but you can get a lot closer with Al by going with 7050 or 7075 series Al vs 6061. Price - well, that is a downside.

3) Guitar necks for a size reference. If you are going to make a neck, which not have a router that can make the body as well ?

4) Please consider making the router axis horizontal. A refrigerator size unit would be a lot easier to deal with than an increasingly bigger floor layout. I am doing that for my DIY and the space savings are very large.

If you were offering that sort of arrangement, then I would not have had to build my own. (sized for 4 x 8 sheet)

Just food for thought. :)

Harry

X-Axis: 21.125"
Y-Axis: 8.250"
Z-Axis: 3.900"

Is exactly what I'm looking for.
Are you going to offer these?


Send me an email with shipping and contact info, and you will be added to my waiting list!

sales@widgitmaster.com

Thanks,

Eric

One of my biggest restrictions is that my milling machine has only 24" of Travel in the X-Axis. so making parts longer than 24" is twice the work!

Thanks for the heads-up on the NEMA-34 motors, as I will need to add that to the bigger routers.



Now, as for V-Groove bearings and tracks, I have found a nice system in McMaster Carr, that will allow me to make a larger footprint light duty router, and keep the cost down! I have ordered some this morning, and will be able to incorporate a design around them!


Now, for a change of thought.....
Last evening I had a brainstorm! What if I were to build aluminum strips shaped like an upside down T, and put a T-Slot in the center of the top edge. Then place several of them in rows about 4" apart, and connect them to an aluminum rail on the ends. Then people could cut strips of plywood or MDF and screw them to the bottom of the T, making as large a T-Slot plate as needed! This idea saves on material, as large plates of Aluminum are expensive!

I like it! But what if ya just use some like this http://www.mcmaster.com/
McMaster-Carr, just type in "t-track"

I like it! But what if ya just use some like this http://www.mcmaster.com/
McMaster-Carr, just type in "t-track"

One thing for sure, I could never make mine at that price :eek:

Scrap that idea (chair)
Eric

Eric,

I'm sure you've pondered this. Using cast iron tables (two) from mill like the X3. It would appear that all these castings should be available fairly cheaply for any of the Chinese made products (IH, etc.).

Paul

Of course you could cast them from EG like the guys in the engineering thread are working on.

Now I love to cut cast iron, but the chips are dusty and the black soot gets into my house!

Hi Widgit

You don't mill the cast EG (epoxy granite). You make a mold and pour in a mix of special stone and epoxy. It goes flat by itself.

There is quite an amazing thread on it in the engineering section.

Eric

sometimes i wonder about your health and strength and the incessant demands for you products is driving you into an early grave.

Everyone seems to want something slightly different which only adds to the confusion.

Has anyone thought about co-operatively building a Widgit CNC, where different people build different sections e.g. Chuck builds 20 flipples, Boris builds 20 grankles etc.

All parts are to be sent to Eric who might like to oversight quality control as they build to his design.

If 10 people each build 10 parts then 10 people each end up with a machine each that has been quality-approved by the CNC Master.

If people outside the 10 wish to buy a machine then they might need to look at paying a premium for such over-sighted quality.

Grade 1 machines made by the Widgit Master, himself.
Grade 2 machines made by the Master's apprentices/co-operative.


Eric you have fast become a legend would you pollute that status by producing a Grade 3 or lower level bit of gear? Or do you prefer to maintain your higher level as becomes someone who is a true artist who also has craft and trade skills. Like Leonardo of the CNC (or anything you turn your hand to).

If I stop working, I will fade away! I need to keep my mind and body active to keep it healthy!

Group efforts get too complicated, and I prefer to work alone with clarity of thought

Widgit

Now, while browsing through McMaster Carr, I found a set of pre assembled v-groove bearing & slide rails at a very affordable price!

So I bought one slide block, and one piece of v-track about 12" long. This way I can design around them it build a nice precision router!

9374T22 (http://www.mcmaster.com/asp/enter.asp?partnum=9374T22) .516" WIDTH X 12.5" LENGTH RAIL FOR, MINIATURE TRACK ROLLER GUIDE BLOCK
9374T1 (http://www.mcmaster.com/asp/enter.asp?partnum=9374T1) MINIATURE TRACK ROLLER GUIDE BLOCK, STEEL WHEELS, 2" LENGTH

The slide block is small and quality made, and I see no problems building my parts to accept them as interchangeable items, should they ever wear out or cause problems. The rails are induction hardened, and when precision mounted to a sub plate will accurately provide a path for the slide blocks.

Links don't work.


http://www.mcmaster.com/ctlg/DisplCtlgPage.aspx?reqtyp=catalog&CtlgPgNbr=1047&sesnextrep=890291066870958&CtlgEdition=113&k1=9374T1&t1=PN&ScreenWidth=1280&McMMainWidth=1068

.

would it be cheaper at all to purchase overseas for linear guide rails, guide rail bearings or what ever expensive CNC stuff like this from like china? specialy in bulk. shipping may be a killer but it may still be cheaper over all. just checking if you guys know. i mean if youre going to manufacture the CNC, a sure way to offer a cheaper product then the rest is by buying directly from the manufacture. any one knows of a company?

would it be cheaper at all to purchase overseas for linear guide rails, guide rail bearings or what ever expensive CNC stuff like this from like china? specialy in bulk. shipping may be a killer but it may still be cheaper over all. just checking if you guys know. i mean if youre going to manufacture the CNC, a sure way to offer a cheaper product then the rest is by buying directly from the manufacture. any one knows of a company?



I don't have a specific company in mind, If you plan on buying from china, I've been reading a lot of articles (stock market) about Alibaba (http://www.alibaba.com/).

Alibaba is the Ebay of International business (Import & Export).

Here is a search for "cnc":
http://importer.alibaba.com/buyeroffers?Type=BUY&year=&month=&location=&keyword=&SearchText=cnc&Country=&srchLocation=&srchYearMonth=&IndexArea=offer_en



.

i have browsed trough their pages in the past, but never really dealt with any of the companies on there. thats why i asked. i figured maybe widgitmaster had talked to a couple companies or some of you guys that make and sell these machines.
i have actually gotten quotes from Http://www.auto-part-china.com they sell the 15mm linear guide rails for .06 cents per mm and the linear block for $31 which seem pretty cheap to me. but once you figure in the shipping cost, then its only worth it if you're buying in larger quantities with quantity discount.

Thats funny you posted that link for auto-part-china.

I found this (http://autopartchina.en.alibaba.com/offerdetail/56098409/Sell_Linear_Guide.html) link on Alibaba.

.

i found it trough Google though. lol, if i was them i would do the same thing, networking.

Ok, just MHO.

First, my son did some purchases through alibaba. Sometimes it works out, but at least 60 % of the time, it does not.

Second - The attraction of widgit's product is that it is built in a first world country. The day that widgit starts sourcing from China, is the day that I stop considering buying.

There are already plenty of China sourced parts and machines around for those who want that type of build where price is the first priority. Maybe a flood would be a better term.

The day that widgit starts sourcing from China, is the day that I stop considering buying.

Thank you!
Widgit

Last evening I had a brainstorm! What if I were to build aluminum strips shaped like an upside down T, and put a T-Slot in the center of the top edge. Then place several of them in rows about 4" apart, and connect them to an aluminum rail on the ends. Then people could cut strips of plywood or MDF and screw them to the bottom of the T, making as large a T-Slot plate as needed! This idea saves on material, as large plates of Aluminum are expensive!

This looks like an extrusion to me.

I bet folks doing MDF machines might be interested in buying it by the foot.

May be interesting to find a quote and see how much you'd need to order to get a good price on it.

You mentioned Castings - since you already can create your own templates, you ought to look around your immediate surrounds for a casting job shop here in the 1st world. From my back door alone, I can access 3 different limited run casters within 3 miles.

Key is to make models of critical parts you want casted, bring em to them as find out what they can produce them for. Many of these job shops also have machining centers as well and can finish the casting to your spec. The price will certainly be higher than CHina but I bet you can beat the shipping cost and turnaround time.

Within my county, I know of casting shops that work in every metal from scrap aluminum to freshly minted billets of all metals.

Don't discount castings until you look around first. You might be surprised.


BMG

I guess I'm still toying with the idea of building a big, all steel unit.



Low Carbon Blanchard Ground Flat Stock
Width: 24"
Thickness: 1/2"
Length: 24"
Material: Steel - AISI Type C1018
MSC # 86057247 | Big Book Page 1759
Price: $621.83 ea
Mfr: Made in USA



After spending all that cash, I would still need to mill the edges square, mill the T-Slots, and drill & c-bore several holes on the perimeter!

This is a lot of work as a plate like this does tend to get heavy! Ouch!

Then I need to order the plates to frame our the base, allowing for the mounting of linear slide blocks. Next, order two more plates which will become the sides, along with a plate to connect them. Then I need to make the Y & Z-axis.

I still don't think people will buy such a machine!
How would I ship something like that, not cheap I'm sure!

Widgit

Why not make the base from a small granite surface plate. You can buy them really cheap on eBay. I have done some experiments with them and it is easy to drill them with masonary bits and epoxy in stepped steel inserts from the underside. Flatness shouldn't be a problem! and they will damp vibrations nicely.

Well, majority Rules!
So I started another router out of aluminum, its top plate is 24x24 and has a work area of 19x19x9 !
Here is the post address:
http://www.cnczone.com/forums/showthread.php?t=52420

I can't stand Chinese products they are such poor quality, worryingly though Japan and Taiwan were similar in their early days but now they turn out good stuff especially Japan.
Is that going to happen with China and they rule the world?

Taiwan is quite good these days with an affordable price tag. Hiwin and ABBA rails are good both Taiwan.

I cant think of any Japanese industrial company now that manufactures poor quality, they would sooner jump in front of a train than sell rubbish, there honour and reputation is to be admired.

I really think England has to get its act together there is no support for industry, we used to have great engineers and our machine tools were very good, we got nothing now (commercially I mean, there are some knowledgeable chaps on the forum and people working in their sheds) but look on ebay at the CNC machines made by English companies, its just a bunch of poorly assembled crap, made of cheap Chinese parts, by lame pen pushers.

Sorry for the negativeness but I have this on my mind a lot. Maybe the world is just changing.