Hi folks first post here,

I purchased a Camsoft CNC lite /plus system and retrofitted it onto an OKK MCV500 vertical machining center ( using the existing Mitsubishi drives and motors )
For the most part it works OK ( yes just OK ) but not dramatically better than the two and a half decade old control it replaced ( a Meldas 5000c with a Dostek BTR ) for one thing servo stability is a big problem ( unless i edit the programs to use a G10 and G11G00 command they won't run )

I can work around all this if I have to ( and eventually I hope to not have to ) but a major problem with the functionality of this system is the handwheel

if I use the handwheel function to touch off on a part or to indicate an edge and then try to run a program the program will start but the spindle will not ( note that jogging the axes around does not cause this problem )

the only way I have found to fix this problem is to shutdown and re start the control which at least to me is a major PITA
does anybody out there know what's up?
logic problem?
I looked through all the literature that was sent with the software and hardware and came up with nothing
thanks in advance, Ben

Ben, maybe if you post your code you are using for the spindle start we may be able to help. I assume you have an S value and an M3 or M4?
Incidentally what Mitsubishi servo drives and motors are you using?
Have you tried emailing Ruben Ordonez at Camsoft, he may be able to help.
Al

Ben,

When I look at the list of features of the CNC Plus versus, CNC professional, quite frankly, I think you should upgrade to Professional, asap.

The critical features, I believe that a serious user will want are these:
G&M codes user definable
Smartpath option
Fastmode
Dynamic look ahead

There are others, as well.

The first one I listed, G&M codes user definable is quite critical, I believe. Without direct access to the logic that executes when M or G codes are executed, I believe you will find yourself extremely handicapped to tweak performance of your machine, and make it do what you want it to do. I speak from experience.

The real reason to upgrade to a Camsoft cnc, in my opinion, is so that you can run short segment 3d code smoothly. Some of those other features I listed above are well worth having, in order to accomplish this.

Ben

Sounds like handwheel logic problems. Take a look in the inputio.fil file. Also run a log file. Try to trace the logic. I bet that that particular operation or feature you select modifes some rapidspeed settings or turns something off that does not get reset back. Send your cbk file and a logfile and as much detail as you can into camsoft tech support. I bet you they can help.

Smith

Originally posted by HuFlungDung
Ben,

G&M codes user definable

There are others, as well.

The first one I listed, G&M codes user definable is quite critical, I believe. Without direct access to the logic that executes when M or G codes are executed, I believe you will find yourself extremely handicapped to tweak performance of your machine, and make it do what you want it to do. I speak from experience.


Hu, I am not sure I completely agree as far as 'Tweaking' G codes. My philosophy is that the system software provider supply working standard G codes that operate perfectly with the system it is written for, whether this be a aimed at a OEM hardware, dedicated motion control card (Galil) or purely Windows software based system.
G codes are written for the motion control part of the CNC and as such should perform exactly as they are defined in the EIA standard RS-274D. If not then the software provider is amiss in not suppling the right code. In other words these should not be machine specific.
M codes on the other hand are machine specific and require the machine tool builder to custom them as required.
If I am building/retro-fitting a machine, the last thing I want to do is to have to 'tweak' G codes.
If I am paying top dollar for CNC software, I would expect that at least the 'Standard' part of the system perform without intervention.
Just venting my 2cents worth.
Al

Here is a sample of what I am talking about, Al. There is tons of stuff you can add to make your machine safer to operate, or simply more foolproof.

The real "guts" of the G codes are actually quite simple, as you indicate, because the basic motion controller commands are quite simple.

When you have full control, you can experiment, too. Try the G0 without a DECELSTOP and see what happens. Etc., etc.

There was no way I could have done my lathe retrofit with CNCLite. It would be one thing if they told you what logic they were using in the CNC Lite Gcodes, but it is invisible.

Here is a sample I cut from my own cbk. I'm not going to explain it, but you can probably decipher some of what I was up to :)

~@~GCODE.FIL
DISPLAY1 t :TEXT 1;t :\81=t
IF\99=0THENIF{\3+\4}=0THENIF\5=1THENLABEL2 YOU FORGOT TO PROGRAM SPINDLE FWD/REV :[CYCLEBUTT] :EXIT
LABEL2 ;11
IF\99=0THENIF\5=1THENLABEL2 SPINDLE IS STOPPED;12 'detect a stopped spindle by M5 flag
DECELSTOP
RAPID z;{x/2};0
IF\99=1THENIFt<>\408THEN\408=t :FILEWRITE (T\408) :READNOTE \409 :FILEWRITE (\409) :FILEWRITE M0
IF\99=0THENIF\5=1THEN [CYCLEBUTT] 'if a dryrun is not in progress then if an M5 was not cancelled my an M3 or M4 ,go to the macro
\100=z
\101=x
-----G0
IF f=0THENLABEL2 YOU FORGOT TO SPECIFY A FEEDRATE;12 :[CYCLEBUTT] :EXIT
LABEL2 ;11
IF\99=0THENIF\5=1THENLABEL2 SPINDLE IS STOPPED;12 'detect a stopped spindle by M5 flag
GO z;{x/2};0
IF\99=0THENIF\5=1THEN [CYCLEBUTT] 'allows the program to run through with axis locked M31
\100=z
\101=x
-----G1
IF f=0THENLABEL2 YOU FORGOT TO SPECIFY A FEEDRATE;12 :[CYCLEBUTT] :EXIT
IF\99=0THENIF\5=1THENLABEL2 SPINDLE IS STOPPED;12'detect a stopped spindle by M5 flag
'CW z;{x/2};0;k;i;0 'this is for I,K arc centers
CW z;{x/2};;r
IF\99=0THENIF\5=1THEN [CYCLEBUTT]
\100=z
\101=x
-----G2
IF f=0THENLABEL2 YOU FORGOT TO SPECIFY A FEEDRATE;12 :[CYCLEBUTT] :EXIT
IF\99=0THENIF\5=1THENLABEL2 SPINDLE IS STOPPED;12 'detect a stopped spindle by M5 flag
'CCW z;{x/2};0;k;i;0 'this is for I,K arc centers
CCW z;{x/2};;r
IF\99=0THENIF\5=1THEN [CYCLEBUTT]
\100=z
\101=x
-----G3

Al, the drives are mitsubishi ( Zofuku ) with THA3SB top boards , the motors are big 1.5 Kw permanent magnet DC servo ( 8 brushes ) ballscrews are 10mm pitch and 40mm in dia

I am using the regular codes for spindle start ( ie : S2000 M03.... )

I have already sent my CBK to Rueben ...... no luck so far

I was wondering if any of you guys are using the camsoft pendant without problems? I mean does this stuff actually work or is it just B.S.?

the reason we went with the CNC plus version of the software is because we don't really need high speed look ahead and all the fancy geegaws ( lets face it this beast is far from high speed at 400 IPM max rapids on box ways ) all I really need is good, basic, reliable performance with no surprises when I hit cyclestart........ right now I don't trust this thing ( like playing russian roulette with CAT50 taper tooling )

as far as the tool changer goes none of that stuff has even been attempted yet ( but I do have the opto board bristling with relays )

I also agree with Al on the subject of user definable G code..... leave the standard stuff standard I don't really want to have to mess with this stuff just to make parts on my machine

Ilook at this like a car thats so loaded up with options that they forgot it needs an engine to move, it's great to sit in, but it sucks to drive...... I don't really care if I can choose what bitmap image of a virtual stop button I like as long as when it 's pressed things actually stop.

Ben,

You hit the nail on the head with the car comparision.
I have always complained about the pendant response in diagnostics mode!

I did a total of six of these CamSoft installations.

Looks like excellent code Hu, would like to see the [CYCLEBUTT] macro.
Just out of curiosity would you make any commission if Ben upgraded to CNC Pro.

HillBilly

Hillbilly,

No, I would not make a commission from any sales upgrades, although I guess I could hope :D

The standard keyboard jog mode sucks, and I've complained but to no effect. There is no reason why keyboard jog could not be a very workable system, but once again, because the logic is buried internally in the executable, it cannot be modified, and therefore, IMO, it cannot be fixed.

This is exactly the reason why the standard Gcode and Mcode logic with CNC Lite is practically useless. This is, IMO, why you guys might feel that your machine is not safe to run. I guarantee you, it most definitely is not safe to run with the standard cbk. The logic is too stripped down to be safe. I was shocked that this was the case, with the standard cbks sent out with the program.

The argument was, that Camsoft could not release "real cbks", because they might infringe on other retrofitter's efforts. I suppose this is a conceivable argument, but still, there is no real forum (except this one) where users can get together and discuss and share ideas, from whatever they have individually developed. Thus, each user spends many hours reinventing the wheel, so to speak. CAmsoft tech support makes a living from support, so why should they give up a good thing?

Although one of the "advantages" of the Camsoft interface, is that "you don't need ladder logic", that could lead one (especially a novice) to assume that ladder logic is not important. That is total BS, of course. There are hundreds of safety concerns that commercial cnc controllers take care of "automatically", which the novice retrofitter might overlook. But, when you have to rewrite and invent the logic yourself, you do gain a new appreciation for what the commercial cnc's take care of. That is why "plc ladders" look like a nightmare to learn. They are! :D But the logic is just as necessary in a pc based cnc controller.

Do you think I still qualify for a "cut" if you guys upgrade? ;) :D

I am willing to share my lathe cbk with anyone who wants to see it. If you want me to "tech support" it, then I will charge you a price for the support.

I would also like to see what other people have done in their cbks, both mill and lathe. If anyone wants to "trade" the cbk file, I'm game for it.

BTW, I do feel very safe running this machine. In fact it beats anything else that I have ever had, but only because I took the time to make it so. Interlocked logic throughout the Mcode and Gcode files are the keys to success. You just cannot get this with CNC Lite.

Here is my [CYCLEBUTT] macro :) It is basically just a quick way to reset various things in the GUI, as there are many "safety issues" that call for the same logic over and over, so this macro was the simple way to get this one function without cluttering up my cbk with duplicate logic.

Variable 104 and 30 are flags to help me keep track of SINGLESTEP mode or CYCLESTART mode. It really does not make much sense without thoroughly delving into the complete logic system I have built (and even then, I sometimes wonder ;) )

~@~MACRO.FIL
[[CYCLEBUTT]]
IF\104=0THENIF\30=1 THEN CYCLESTART :GOTO :ABORTPROG
IF\104=1THENIF\30=1 THEN GOTO :ABORTPROG
IF\104=1THEN GOTO :ENDLOOP
CYCLESTART
:ENDLOOP
BUTTON5 IN; F5 SINGLE STEP MODE ACTIVE;2
BUTTON6 OUT; PRESS F6 FOR CONTINUOUS MODE;12
BUTTON1 IN; ABORT JOB?;2 :SLEEP .5:BUTTON1 OUT; ABORT JOB?;4 :SLEEP .5 :BUTTON1 IN; ABORT JOB?;2 :SLEEP .5 :BUTTON1 OUT; F1 ABORT JOB;2
EXIT
:ABORTPROG
BUTTON5 IN; F5 SINGLE STEP MODE ACTIVE;2
BUTTON6 OUT; PRESS F6 FOR CONTINUOUS MODE;12
\30=0 :REFRESH :EOP

Hu .... well I guess I qualify as a novice retrofitter.... this is the first CNC retrofit I have ever attempted ( nothing like starting out on a 40" x 20" x 22" 50 taper VMC Eh?....... ) I am just using the HH lite .cbk file and you're right about the not safe part...what was the secret password again....... Hmmm RISK?

the only reason I purchased the Camsoft system was we were told that the system had been installed on a OKK machine before and that it would work with our existing motors and drives

with the old control the servo's were rock solid and accurate to four decimal places ( old fashioned tacho/gen and resolvers )

with the new control the servo's are willing to trip at any moment and lose position badly ( running in velocity mode with 2000 ppr OMRON encoders and tacho/gen's for the drives )

I even had the servo's tuned by a Mitsubishi factory trained technician who is also an electrical engineer
( and no these drives don't have a "torque mode " to switch to , sad but true )

when i bought this system I was not really informed about the level of "tweaking' I was going to have to do as far as logic and programming, oh well nothing like learning the hard ( and expensive ) way....

Hu: This is one of those times when an explanation for an acronym would come in handy ;)!

"CBK" (remembering my newbieness)

IJ, .CBK is just a file type extension that Camsoft use to store all the machine parameters & configuration that the machine tool retrofitter has them stored in for his particular machine.
Al

Ben, Have you downloaded and used the free servo tuning program from Galil web site? This allows you to obtain the optimum tuning parameters for your servo setup outside of Camsoft first.
If your drives are DC with tach feedback, I imagine the original system was velocity mode. Also the support section at Galil have FAQ from users on typical tuning problems.
What I usually do, and I imagine your engineer tuner may have already done so, is to disconnect the analogue input to the drives and use a +-9v battery box with variable pot to input a command signal to tune the tach feedback first before the system command is connected, then tune via the Galil WSDK s/w, Then use the values obtained and plug them into the camsoft.
Some care is required if the motors are connected to ball screw etc.
In the extreme case where you cannot get good tuning, an option is to look at AMC amplifiers like the 100A25 or 100A40 these will run on 250vdc or 400vdc at max continuous 50amps.
The DC can often be obtained from off of the old drives (these drives are much smaller physically).
The only biggest reason I believe for going to a PC open system rather than an off-the-shelf system is that the old hardware
(servo's etc) can be resused, and hopefully save costs. Otherwise I would recommend a complete manufactured system.
Al
Also with 2000 count/rev encoders they are used in the quad mode to give you 8000 counts/rev

Ben,

I would hope Al's suggestions work for you. I would also tend to agree with Al that you get new drives and simply rely on encoder feedback. I believe that this is when you will get utmost performance out of your Galil card. This is just my opinion, but I'll tell you why. I bought a $5000 Baldor DC spindle drive for another machine which I had professionally retrofitted. Since the original motor setup was for tach feedback, I went that route first. Big mistake, the responsiveness was just not there. So, in this case, I had to tear off the tach and mount an encoder. Anyways, the performance of the drive was greatly enhanced = me happy :)

So I am supposing that since the Galil card is based on systems using encoder feedback (in order to get enough system resolution), that you would enjoy the same benefits, if you update your drive amps, as Al suggested.

Again, if you can tune it up some way as is, then good luck to you. But, putting current technology drives on your machine might be a step in the right direction, too.

Check through your cbk file for anything that might accidentally be "untuning" your drive PID parameters. For certain operations, it is entirely possible to retune your drive settings by inserting the appropriate commands somewhere. You just need to be certain that this is not happening accidentally when you do not intend for it to happen. The Camsoft manual tells you what this command syntax looks like, so you can see if anything like that is present in any of the logic you are calling. Just a long shot in the dark :)

You were saying in an earlier post that you won't be doing highspeed machining and that is why you would not need CNC Professional. I disagree with you on this. There are motion smoothing commands in CNC Professional that will help take the jerk out of running short segment 3d gcode. Short segment code even below 400ipm can be hard on a machine if it is receiving a DECELSTOP command between every movement. Yet, a DECELSTOP command is necessary at the end of a chain of movements, or the drives will fault, as you seem to be experiencing.

Even in lathe, this makes a difference: when I turn smoothing on, there is absolutely no toolmarks visible on a multi-segment contour, whereas in normal mode, there is.

Al : Many thanks :)! (I try to learn something new each day and as it's 6:30am here my day is complete already!!)

IJ. Yeah I guess your into 'tommorow' already ;)
Al

AL: LOL yep the new week starts! (Be nice if I could get back into my nice warm bed)(Cold here)

Originally posted by IJ.
(Cold here)
Yeah Right!! What is that? +10c, Just came out of -40c winter Mate.
Hey, wait a minute, why am I boasting.
Al
:o

AL: ROFLMAO!! +10 Well that's cold ;)! (cracking up laughing here really)

Sorry to take this thread so far off topic I'll stop now! (been in -15 temps when I was a kid and you can keep anyplace that goes into -anything AL ;)!)

Ben,

When you say you are losing position I start to suspect something with the new encoders installed, nothing against your installation. It would be worth
scoping these signals at the Galil. Although I have a very low opinion of CamSoft the heart of these systems is a industry proven motion controller.
( This does not pertain to the CNC industry BTW. ) I have used these controllers on CRS, Fanuc, G.E. and West Amp velocity mode drives with good stability. Galil will tell you in velocity mode the P becomes the main tuning factor although I and D will have to be adjusted they do not have the same effectiveness when your drives run in torque mode. This could possibly be the cause of the motion problem your having.

I know if you can get your spindle to start at program entry then you have it wired right. The fact that the spindle does not start and the program runs brings up a crucial safety consideration for a CNC machine tool controller that you will not notice in any of the stock CBK's or in that terrible manual.

WHEN SPINDLE START IS ISSUED:

1. Spindle drive
a) You will want to incorporate a at speed check into your M code before proceeding with program execution.
b) You will also need to add logic that will detect a spindle not at speed
after leaving the above M code and take action to stop the program.
2. Magnetic Starter
a) You will want to add a delay in the M code for the spindle to get up to speed before proceeding.
b) You will also need to add logic that will watch the overload contact on the motor starter after leaving the above M code and take action
to stop the program.

Somepeople may not care if you drag a dead tool across a work piece, but at least I do!

HillBilly

hill billy ...... the spindle does start and run normally when I run a program ( it's a 15hp variable speed DC drive ) the tach on the spindle motor goes to the drive unit ( there is no encoder on the spindle, but that might be changing... )

with the computer off and the drives turned on they are very stable , only when the control is live does the problem start , we used the camsoft diagnostic page to tune the servo drives

what's funny about that statement is that Galil was not very much help at all in the servo tuning dept.??
they kept saying hire a pro.. so that's what I did.



Al, the 9v battery box was exactly what the Servo tech used, we are really hoping to keep using the existing servo drives and motors ( not wanting to invest too much $$$ in an old dog)

at this point the complete manufactured system ( although now financially out of reach ) is looking pretty good...

Hu, right now I am really wary about giving Camsoft any more money... if the CNC lite/ plus are crap and not going to work then why did they make it sound like it was going to work fine when I called them to order it?..... just feeding me a line to make a sale? seems like a strange way of building a customer base.....

Perhaps, Ben, although most likely, neither you nor I knew what we were getting into beforehand.

I honestly don't know where and when CNC Lite would be satisfactory, but considering the overall cost of retrofits generally, even $5k is not what I would call expensive, not really, especially for those using "real cnc machines" in the shop.

However, if you go the CNC Professional route, you have the maximum number of options and greatest freedom (and opportunity) to get what you want eventually, if you are willing to work at it, or pay someone else to write logic for you (which is equivalent to hiring someone to write a PLC ladder, I guess).

I believe that Galil's servo tuning software is far superior to what Camsoft has incorporated, although I have not seen what version 15 of CNC Professional has to offer. Once again, Galil will charge you a fee to unlock this software, which is most likely on your Galil cd.

Ben.I see that Galil now charge $195.00 for their tuning software, it used to be free sometime ago. But at this point in time it might be prudent to spring for the 195.00. The software has a simulated 'scope to get the visual picture in order to get the optimum results. these values should then be plugged in to your Camsoft system. Those are fairly large drives and possess quite a bit of inertia, I am guessing that if the Galil tuning is off and your accel decel times are short, that maybe is where you are running into the problem.
My Camsoft manual recommends the purchase of the Galil s/w. for tuning.
Al

I wish somebody with one of the Ajax CNC packages would write in about preformance.
Speaking for myself I am gun shy about recomending or buying anything after the CamSoft experience.

Ben, you should be able to use your drives. When the control is on it closes the position loop by looking at the encoders and driving the amps accordingly.
With the amps in velocity mode the velocity loop is closed with the tach to amp ( This is why I and D loose there effectiveness. ).
How many units per inch will have a great deal to do with the P gain in the new system and how the amps worked in the old system.
If this new resolution is high it may be impossible to get the gain much above 1 or 2 before the system becomes unstable.
Lost position is almost always encoder related assuming no backlash or axis mapping is going on.

HillBilly

This machine was making parts 1 hour after the electrical connections were completed. You still have to set up a lot of the safety interlocks yourself as all machines are different in this respect. The screen displays the absolute position and the distance to go at the same time. It is a pleasure to run, havent had any problems in 6 months running time. They now offer a pci board that runs on linux, I received this new system on Friday. will be traveling to races in the next 2 weeks but hope to be able to complete the next retrofit after that. Terry

Terry,

When you get the time start a Ajax thread and include us a pic. if possible. It sure sounds good and the price seems very fair.

Darek

Ben,

I hope you got things straightned out (best case scenario).
Seems funny we have not heard from you good or bad.

Darek

Hillbilly...... I get very little time on the old Interweb... but if you're curious we're still working on it..

bringing this thread back, I looked through all the logic files that seemed to have anything to do with the handwheel ( inputIO.FIL?? ) and nowhere is there any code that obviously shuts the spindle down when I hit the Aux1 ( handwheel enable ) key on the pendant..... any more ideas? something hidden?
Ghosts in the Machine?


Also is there a way to have an incremental jog? ( like... move X axis 0.010" every time a button is pressed? etc... )

Ben,

Could there be any kind of conflict between the axis number used for the spindle (likely your 4th axis) and the axis number used for your handwheel input? Just a shot in the dark.

And so far as incremental jog, if you want to use the keyboard, there is an amount you can enter when you use ALT + arrow key combo. However, performance of the machine likely is unacceptable using the keyboard jog, unless Camsoft soups it up a bit.

If you have dedicated hardware buttons for this purpose, you should be able to create logic to command a movement by switching Camsoft into incremental mode inside your jog logic. You can use the INCCODE command to do this.

Then, you capture the user input jog increment, and use it with the GO commands to make incremental movements. Just be sure that you reset the Camsoft interface back to absolute (assuming this would be the normal mode of operation) before you leave the jog logic, by using the ABSCODE command.

Ben,

After you push AUX.1 you need to (in the watch window) look at a variable then through the diagnostics window SEND \?=s (?=variable used). This test will tell you if your S value is being cancelled.

Darek

Ben,

Regarding Incremental jog, beyond key board inc jog and a user defined button there is also Touch Screen, Joystick and Foot pedal Incremental jogging, but the default settings for the Handwheel naturally perform incremental jogging, whereas each click of the handwheel moves the axis a certain user defined distance. Just be sure your not using the Handwheel in analog mode, meaning don't use the TACH parameter. Keep it in digital mode.

In addition to trapping the variable for spindle speed, the Watch Window also has two displays showing commanded spindle RPM and actual RPM.

We believe we could solve this mystery if you could enter Diagnostics mode, repeat the handwheel/spindle effect and send us your history file (LOGFILE.FIL) file and latest CBK.

Tech Support
CamSoft Corp.
(909) 674-8100
support@camsoftcorp.com
www.cnccontrols.com

sorry guys, I havent checked the board in a few days..

Hu, if I recall I am using the 4th axis auxillary input for my handwheel

Hillbilly I will check to see which variable # the S code is using


Camsoft I will try to get a logfile and the CBK off to you folks as soon as I can

thanks everyone!

Ben