I just read an article on MSN (http://msn.careerbuilder.com/custom/msn/careeradvice/viewarticle.aspx?articleid=1156&SiteId=cbmsnhp41156&sc_extcmp=JS_1156_home1&GT1=10466 (http://msn.careerbuilder.com/custom/msn/careeradvice/viewarticle.aspx?articleid=1156&SiteId=cbmsnhp41156&sc_extcmp=JS_1156_home1&GT1=10466)) about jobs that pay $25.00 an hour or better. Machinist is not ranked; in fact none of the trades are ranked. Why do people (and Democrats) always overlook the trades as providers of a good living? In fact some of the wealthiest people that I know started out blowing glass, turning handles, fitting pipes, etc. Children from the time of berth are encouraged to use their brains (excellent idea) however parents do not encourage there children to use there hands. It is my belief (and I am never wrong, just ask me) that to succeed you need a good combination of the two, and the willingness to actually work. If no one is contributing to the “Hands-On” of manufacturing than who does everyone work for?
By the way I own my shop, and I have 8 people working for me, 3 of which make over $25.00 an hour. There are many Market Analysts, Social Workers (liberal tree huggers) out there who are unemployed. Any Machinist worth his salt doesn’t go without work for more than a couple of days.
I live in South Jersey were the few that work are conservatives, we are ruled by North Jersey which is full of liberals (that cant use there hands) who want to continually take my money and give it to those who don’t work.
Happy for the forum, it’s a great place to vent.
Thanks and I hope that this will spark some reply

I think if you go through this thread you will find a lot of answers to your question.

http://cnczone.com/forums/showthread.php?t=35587

the problem is that in most part of nj $25 an hr is only enough $$$ to never get any where. its fine for some one in there twenties not worried about paying for children etc... but it's just enough to slow the sinking besides manufaturing jobs almost don't exist in most of the state anymore just finance, pharm, and services. hell highway line painters make more than $25 and they get all that mob based side action. in most of the state a 2brm condo goes for $350,000. Yes plenty of people make less they've already given up on anyting but poverty and are just hoping there kids will do better.I manage to keep my yearly expences down to about 30,000 but people look at me like I'm nuts for it. I spent 20 bucks on mcdonalds for two people the other day with a couple of Ice creams at $25hr thats 48 minutes of work so your guys half to work more than half a day to take there wives out to a nice dinner that includes actual vegtables. thew only people I know that work hard can't even vote because there "illegal" thats why people want there kids to use there heads and go to school to learn how to steal and BS working hard will just get you beat up broke and pre aged I know my hands gave out before I was thirty from 18 hr days. I dont like it but thats the way it is. wake up unless you have daddy money $25hr doesn't get the job done and how much more can you pay your guys and make money? I used to make almost that much cleaning and fixing pools and it isn't enough in this state overtime is great but you shouldn't have to count on it. if your makng less then 60,000 in jersey and over thirty your in trouble unless you don't want children even at 60,000 you need to find more work for saturday

As an aside, the guy who did my job before me died unexpectedly last week. He had probably forgoten more than I'll ever know about machining and all that knowledge is now gone... because there was no- one to pass it on to. Bit sad really :(

Question:
Why do people (and Democrats) overlook the trades as providers of a good living

Answer:
They would have to get their hands dirty!


Widgit

Let's look at what it takes to earn that $25/hr. To learn a trade, whether it's machining, plumbing, carpentry, etc. it takes years of dedicated training and hard work (damn, there's that "w' word again) If you're a die-hard and lucky you might end up being successful at it and maybe end up owning your own business, be it a job shop, a contractor or a builder. All three of which will earn you more than $25/hr.

Now let's take something a little different. With all of the talk about the housing market recently let's look at real estate. Take a 6 week course at a community college, buy a laptop, a pen and some business cards and you're ready to go. Average home price in the US is about $210,000 *.06 commision = $12,600 Assuming that you have to split it with another agent you end up with $6,300. Sell 2 a month and you've got a $150k/ year job (roughly $72/hr) Even better if you're in Jersey, or Florida, or some other ridiculous place where people pay way too much for way too little.

Not quite as gratifying to me as actually making something from nothing, but heck, who cares about being gratified at the end of the day. The goal is to get rich quick and the hell with the rest isn't it? At least that's what I thought capitalism was....

Modern Machinists don't really have dirty hands. Of course the exceptions exist (those who machine cast iron). As far as the income $25 an hour is $52k a year. What’s wrong with that? If you are single that’s plenty to get ahead on, if you are married then your spouse should be bringing in some cash also.
As far as the Realtors are concerned, last year they were all rich. This year they are all poor. No benefits, no unemployment to help when sales are down. That’s what 6-wks get you. By the way my wife is a realtor the 6 weeks was only the beginning, like most jobs you get out of it, what you put into it.
Those graduating with a BS or less are not making more than $35k ($15 an hour).

Geeze do I even want to get into this?
When I started out the guys that were teaching me were rolling in money.
Back in those days a toolmaker was the king of the trades. Not anymore!
A plumber makes more money then a toolmaker by far, go figure! Back then a top guy was makeing 25-30 bucks an hour and It has not changed since. I don't know why except that so much work has moved offshore and left all of us to scramble around for the scraps. If you are working for a manufacture your in big trouble because in china they will do the same work for about 10% of what you or I would take to do the same job. The only thing that keeps our boat floating is all the R&D work and product development work that the offshore folks can't figure out. The other thing that worries me is no one is training kids anymore (It costs to much) and when all us old guys are gone it will be game over for the metal working trades in this country. Also it seems to me that the kids today don't want to take the time to learn a trade, they just want all the goodies with no work. Just an old toolmakers view on things.

....A plumber makes more money then a toolmaker by far, go figure!....

I think there is a fairly simple answer for this connected to the construction industry and the clout of unions. When plumbers go on strike the effect is felt immediately; same thing with electricians. When machinists go on strike who notices? Nobody for quite a while. To a large extent the wage you can command depends on the disruption you can cause to the economy by withdrawing your services.

People don’t feel the immediate effect, however with manufacturing the effect is actually 5x that of any other trade. According to the NJMEP (NJ Manufacturers extension program) every 1 job in manufacturing accounts for 5 jobs in sales, service, etc.
Maybe as machinists we need to become more arrogant. As of right now my company is booked through January. We must be needed, maybe even the class of people who are carrying the other careers on our backs.

Why do people (and Democrats) always overlook the trades as providers of a good living?
Which Democrats are you talking about?

It's like JROM said, we are scrambling around for scraps. We as a nation are no longer in the manufacturing buisness. We have become a R&D nation with all the computers and stuff. The part is either rapid prototyped inhouse or sent out to a machine shop to be made. Once perfected it is sent overseas to be mass produced by the millions and done cheaply.

We have always sacrificed ourselves trying to provide a good living for our families so our kids don't have to work as hard as we did. Well this has gone far enough such that our kids are NOW the ones pushing the keys on a keyboard, designing parts to be made overseas.

So what is to become of our great, great, great grandchildren.........



Another interesting tidbit.... Did you know? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xHWTLA8WecI

According to that particular report, which should have made the distinction of white collar positions, the average in this writers research did not show up many of the blue collar wages above $25/hr since those are getting rarer. Here is another excerpt from the same writer that shows another sector of the work force. Point being that the average wage in this sector does not meet the previous articles perspectives. Whether that alone indicates any political bias is up to the reader.

Blue Collar average rates (http://phcc.files.cms-plus.com/PDFs/BlueColorArticle.pdf)

Take notice, that many of the employment opportunities with high wages include higher education requirements, yet often produce or contribute very little to any sellable product, but are included somewhere in the retail price. Academic education does not make one brilliant, intellectual or creative. Most become middle management and we have seen what happens when there is a crisis where overhead gets cut and no one misses them. As I have witnessed, anyone can rise to their own level of incompetence, educated or not. Just because someone gets a high wage, does not make them worth that wage. Some time ago, I had read an article about CEO's having sleepless nights or bad dreams in fear that they will be discovered as frauds or not as smart as their image they portray.

In this day and age of manufacturing, I have found it imperative to have many skills that creates a value in retaining employment long term. The more hats you can wear, the less likely it is that you can be easily replaced. Which inevitably also adds leverage to obtain a reasonable rate above and beyond the average. There is some discipline in keeping that level to meet what ever you may be requested to lend some advice. With that there is some gratification in having people rely on your experience as a valued part of the team. Not having the potential for being let go in a down turn is a bonus I never expected.

Much of the credit is due to places like this site, that a group like this can be so informative in areas we don't usually work with directly.:cheers:

Which democrat's? One's like Henry Ford? although I think he was more of a socialist as evident from his admiration of Hitler......Leftists are usually liberal thinking, do as I say, not as I do, typical academia elitist kind of rhetoric.

DC

I wasn’t looking to have a political discussion, nor do I admire industrialists like H. Ford for their politics. As far as a CEO, and inventor his accomplishments are huge.
I love to pick on Democrats as often as possible. I am sure there are good ones the same as there are thieves and liars in all other political affiliations. If you lived in Jersey and read the paper you would see that almost every day another one or fourteen is being arrested.

My point with the article was that Machinists do not get the respect that they very much deserve. After all we as a group of artisans drove the industrial revolution, and made our modern lifestyles possible.

Geeze do I even want to get into this?
When I started out the guys that were teaching me were rolling in money.
Back in those days a toolmaker was the king of the trades. Not anymore!
A plumber makes more money then a toolmaker by far, go figure! Back then a top guy was makeing 25-30 bucks an hour and It has not changed since. I don't know why except that so much work has moved offshore and left all of us to scramble around for the scraps. If you are working for a manufacture your in big trouble because in china they will do the same work for about 10% of what you or I would take to do the same job. The only thing that keeps our boat floating is all the R&D work and product development work that the offshore folks can't figure out. The other thing that worries me is no one is training kids anymore (It costs to much) and when all us old guys are gone it will be game over for the metal working trades in this country. Also it seems to me that the kids today don't want to take the time to learn a trade, they just want all the goodies with no work. Just an old toolmakers view on things.

I dont see the current marketplace as scrambling to catch scraps. Machining is absolutely booming. Every shop that makes a decent part is scrambling to bring in machines and people. The face af maching is no longer 200 machinists standing at engine lathes making 1000's of the same part. Research is definatly a driving source of work in the marketplace, but I also no of many companies who will not buy from overseas, or need parts quicker than they can be sourced from overseas. Skill, turnaround time, and maybe a little Lean Thinking are key

Geeze do I even want to get into this?
When I started out the guys that were teaching me were rolling in money.
Back in those days a toolmaker was the king of the trades. Not anymore!
A plumber makes more money then a toolmaker by far, go figure! .

Simple, you cant get your house plumbing fixed in china!

I don't live in the US but I will give you, respectfully, my opinion about it.

It's been a long time since USA stopped being a productive country. It's become an speculative economy once more time (at it was just before the 1929 crash) and the lack of demand for people trained in the trades is just a symptom for it.

Now it's easier for US companies to buy products offshore and rebrand them for profit. But any acute economist knows the real nature of money: it's nothing but an abstraction from work.

There would not be a problem about speculation it wasn't for the "minor" inconvenience that in speculation (where nothing is really produced) someone has to lose so another can win. In other words, wealth doesn't increase but just gets redistributed. In such economy wealth slowly decreases by the natural day-to-day consumption until nothing remains. Also, anyone who plays in speculation game will eventually lose. Now, I'm not saying that USA doesn't produce anything... but it surely produces much less than, say, like 50 years ago.

Other countries like China doesn't play that game. They work hard for little, but their real wealth steadily increases. That's how a lasting economy is built and not promoting non-productive ways to make money like in the US (like doing wars that give profit to weapons makers at expense of the nation's money).

The only way to revert that tendency in the US is to actively work with the members of your community so the wealth produced locally remains locally and evenly distributed. It wouldn't be a bad idea to offer free short term courses to promote the trades. Knowledge is valuable; probably the most valuable thing. But yeah, that is to approach the evil socialism.

One thing we can do is to boycott everything made in China whenever possible.I only buy American cars.I almost bought a 2008 pontiac torrent only to discover the engine and trans were made in China.I called gm customer service and they told me that information was propriotery.I ended up buying a ford which has 95% domestic part content and is assembled in the states.I have been machining for over 37 years and have never seen it this bad.Young people want nothing to do with it.If I was young I would probably be a plumber instead of a toolmaker.They can't send to china to unclog a sink.

All knowledge and skill has been consigned to computers. They can function faster and more accurately than any human. It, then is the machinist and the human is just an operator. The attitude of Management is that they can train a monkey to be an operator. Many operators are "temporary employees" and the shop will always be full of "trainees".

Management needs a "slave class" of people to grunt and sweat at the cheapest wage possible, therefore the influx of "undocumented immigrants"! (And yes, IN THE TRADES!)

Both parties have a vested interest here and the Dems stand to gain the most new voters. Why wouldn't a voter vote himself a huge standard of living and with minimal citizen "obligations?

If we don't awaken to protect ourselves, the country will soon develop rigor mortise!!

WOW. This thread turned into a great discussion. I think that ZHAGOOX hit the nail on the head. Many times to really see the problem you need to step back from the situation. We can blame the Unions (I know that I do any chance I get) or imigration. But the true problem is that we have no GNP (Gross National Product), If you look at any shop the key to there success is selling parts (machining). Why does anyone thinkl that it is different for a country. We have all but exhausted our resources (minerals, oil) so the only thing that we have left is our skill. At one time this country had more skill and ability to manufacture than any other nation in the world. Thats how we became a superpower. Look at us now, the best machines come from Japan (except Hardinge), the best cars come from Germany, and everything else is made in China, India, Mexico. Buying American helps, if not American than buy from countries who are on the same economic status as us like Britain, Canada, Germany, Italy, Spain, Swiss, Japan etc (screw the French). And sell your skill all over the world as much as possible. The dollar has weekend enough that we can have a fair shot at selling in the formentioned countries.

GNP is the mean wealth rather than median wealth. Countries with a skewed income distribution may have a relatively high per-capita GNP while the majority of its citizens have a relatively low level of income, due to concentration of wealth in the hands of a small fraction of the population.

Did You Know?

* Of the world’s 6 billion people, more than 1.2 billion live on less than $1 a day. Two billion more people are only marginally better off.
* About 60 percent of the people living on less than $1 a day live in South Asia and Sub-Saharan Africa.
* In high-income countries, farmers—men and women—make up less than 6 percent of the workforce, while in low- and middle-income countries combined, they represent nearly 60 percent of all workers.
* Developing countries account for almost $1 out of every $4 that industrial countries earn from their exports.


GNP per Capita

Gross national product (GNP) per capita is the dollar value of a country’s final output of goods and services in a year, divided by its population. It reflects the average income of a country’s citizens. Countries with a GNP per capita in 1998 of $9,361 or more are described as high income, between $761 and $9,360 as middle income, and $760 or less as low income.

The US has the largest and most technologically powerful economy in the world, with a per capita GNP of $43,500.

Get the facts right!! The US the BIG DADDY!

I hope that you are not thinking or trying to imply that I am US bashing. Maybe my term is incorect (GNP). However you still missed the point. If you are not making a product to sell you cannot increase wealth. This also touched on ZHAGOOX whole point. If you are buying and selling your own product with your own people you are just redistributing the wealth that is already present.

I can't believe the talk I hear around here. I'm a Democrat, Liberal, Environmentalist, and I think machining and other trades in general are a perfectly respectable, and in my view at least, sadly rare thing these days.
My grandfather worked in a tool and die shop, my other grandfather built the house that my father grew up in, he was an ironworker. They could both get by on a unionized wage, This is no longer the case.
One of the many reasons that machining is so rare in this country is Free Trade. It's so simple these days to just design something and have a sweat shop build it for you. Free Trade, by the way, is a thoroughly Republican/Conservative ideal. It goes hand in hand with Supply Side Economics which were popularized by The Reagan Administration. The idea is that instead of recognizing a need and filling it (demand side), we flood the market with products that are easiest to supply, namely, offshore products.
In fact, The Cons have taken our currency off the gold standard, they've made trade tariffs so non existent that Americans can no longer get by on making products themselves. They've basically ruined our once great nation in favor of low taxes for the super wealthy, non-unionized labor, and a market that doesn't even protect it's own currency. Why anyone who's not a multi-multi millionaire would vote conservative is just beyond me. Democrats are not only people, we're the people who used to make this country great, and will again.

I hope that you are not thinking or trying to imply that I am US bashing. Maybe my term is incorect (GNP). However you still missed the point. If you are not making a product to sell you cannot increase wealth. This also touched on ZHAGOOX whole point. If you are buying and selling your own product with your own people you are just redistributing the wealth that is already present.

Check out our ports, sir. Some of the largest and busiest in the world. The import/export numbers tell the same story I quoted above. Your argument doesn't hold water. You are simply wrong, America takes a back seat to no one.

I can't believe the talk I hear around here. I'm a Democrat, Liberal, Environmentalist, and I think machining and other trades in general are a perfectly respectable, and in my view at least, sadly rare thing these days.
My grandfather worked in a tool and die shop, my other grandfather built the house that my father grew up in, he was an ironworker. They could both get by on a unionized wage, This is no longer the case.
One of the many reasons that machining is so rare in this country is Free Trade. It's so simple these days to just design something and have a sweat shop build it for you. Free Trade, by the way, is a thoroughly Republican/Conservative ideal. It goes hand in hand with Supply Side Economics which were popularized by The Reagan Administration. The idea is that instead of recognizing a need and filling it (demand side), we flood the market with products that are easiest to supply, namely, offshore products.
In fact, The Cons have taken our currency off the gold standard, they've made trade tariffs so non existent that Americans can no longer get by on making products themselves. They've basically ruined our once great nation in favor of low taxes for the super wealthy, non-unionized labor, and a market that doesn't even protect it's own currency. Why anyone who's not a multi-multi millionaire would vote conservative is just beyond me. Democrats are not only people, we're the people who used to make this country great, and will again.

You are throwing rocks at some of the most productive years on record. (I ate peanut with Carter and remember it well,)
And yes check out those fat cat Dems, more rich Democrats than anyone else in DC these days.
Don't break your arm by patting your self on the back, the credit doesn't belong to you. No country on Earth ever taxed itself into prosperity. Big government and big unions produce NOTHING! Both are better known these days for corruption, graft and dishonesty.

Reagen was the man,he did more for us working guys then any democrat ever did.If Hillary gets elected the defense budget will get cut and even that work will dry up.

You mean Hillary the "progressive"? (that's code for socialist, you know......commie!)
She will tax the economy into a tailspin and then blame every one else for it.

You mean Hillary the "progressive"? (that's code for socialist, you know......commie!)
She will tax the economy into a tailspin and then blame every one else for it.


Well said,just think what Hillary and Linda Pelosi could do to ruin this country,throw in barrack for the trifecta

Hey guys wake-up! The Bush years started with a record budget surplus and now Communist China owns a good percent of the Huge debt this current administration created. Blame a political party all you want but use the facts. And while you are at it why don't you accuse the Unions for all the job they wanted shipped overseas. Oh sorry my mistake, that was the current administration that allowed that to happen.

That's all I have to say. This is a cnc form after all.

Minor correction, "Miss Americas" name is actually Nancy. But she won't be alone. Frank. Kennedy, Reid, Schumer, Dodd and a veritable army of tax and spend lefties will assist her in riding it into the ground.

As to the surplus, (the one that Republicans dragged Klinton kicking and screaming into) it seems I remember an attack in September that nearly broke the country, two wars (sorry, BOTH were successful) and at least one hellatious hurricane. Lets not forget all the help that was dished out in The Indochina area after an earthquake and massive tidal wave.
And after all that the deficit is shrinking fast! Not bad for a guy that they think of as being too dumb to chew gum.
Don't get your knickers in a knot, just face the facts. We got a good thing going and I, for one, don;t want to throw it away to the third world.
How does that relate to cnc? Try toying with this hobby with no money!

Tax and Spend Lefties? Is this 1981? Have I stepped into some sort of time machine? At least when you tax and spend you actually have the money. When you borrow and spend, all you get is spent money and debt. The Cons have never been "fiscally conservative", Reagan drew up more debt than all Presidents before him combined, and Bush
has done the same.
And, our ports are busy, because we don't have any trade tariffs to protect them from other countries producing and importing all the crap they can fit in a container. Face it, China owns us. Lately, China sold off a whole bunch of US currency, because it's worthless, it's funny money. It's speculative, it's valued against other currencies and nothing else, not gold, not anything real. We're going down the tubes, and quickly at that.

How could Hillary, or any other Progressive candidate do worse to the economy than Bush and the rest of the Cons have? Socialist and Commie? Not even the same thing. Communists live in China and Cuba, Socialists live in countries that have universal health care, strict trade rules, protected currencies, and education systems that favor science and history instead of political or religious rhetoric.
All the cons sell is fear and hatred. That's why they'll lose this election. They ain't got no candidates. Rudy is thrice divorced, once to his cousin, he answers every question with 9/11, "his children couldn't hate him more if they were New York City Firefighters", and to top it all of he and Pat Robertson have decided to insult the religious voters by teaming up regardless of the fact that Rudy is for Gay rights AND strict gun control.
Ya'll ain't even got a candidate. I hope someone replies with a Grandpa Fred message, that'll be fun.

Union of Soviet Socialist Republics? Not the same?
Bad economy in the '80's? Geeze! No way to have a conversation with the product of a Progressive Outcome Based Education system where the majority of the teachers are commies.
Welcome to 21st century reality, the gold standard led to the great world wide depression. Nobody uses a gold standard.

Quote:
In the UK the pound was returned to the gold standard in 1925, by a somewhat reluctant Winston Churchill. Although a higher gold price and significant inflation had followed the WWI ending of the gold standard, Churchill returned to the standard at the pre-war gold price. For five years prior to 1925 the gold price was managed downward to the pre-war level, causing deflation throughout those countries using the Pound Sterling. This deflation reached across the remnants of the British Empire everywhere the Pound Sterling was still used as the primary unit of account. In the UK the standard was again abandoned on September 20, 1931. Sweden abandoned the gold standard in October 1931, the US in 1933, and other nations were, to one degree or another, forced off the gold standard.

McCarthy had it right!!

Tax and spend!

Here's a must see news interview from our current VP.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qnV4tMvI0ME

He KNEW a full 10 years in advance..........
RIGHT THERE you gotta know that there is nothing but a wild wind storm in a barn yard to follow. No need to watch any further. It, and you have just been written off.

"The problem with arguing with a fool is that someone watching may not be able to tell the difference!"

Good by!

Really?
I love the rhetoric, "Tax and Spend", "Commie", "Socialist".

Lets for a moment examine language. Specifically the uses of the word "socialist".
Nazis were self proclaimed socialists. History has shown that they were not socialists, but were in fact fascists.
Now, I thought that I'd debunked the "Tax and Spend" sound bite, apparently some kool aid drinkers out there don't understand that Reagan came into office with a debt of about 2 trillion bux. He left office with a debt of about 9 trillion. More debt than anyone had ever incurred in history. Fluctuations like that are a result of radical changes to the tax code that benefit the super wealthy, and only the super wealthy. It's something that we're seeing again, only this time, there's no cold war, no REAL reason to incur so much debt. No REAL reason that is except for graft. I'm brave and liberal, so I'll say it, we're OCCUPYING Iraq in the name of profit and graft for big business. Anyone who doesn't see that is either blind or willingly ignorant. Issue by issue, anyone who's not super rich can be broken down into being a wanna be liberal. It's a fact, liberalism is more in tune with every religion, every working person, and everyone not shilling for big business.

Why do people (and Democrats) overlook the trades as providers of a good livin

I've found the Democrats just want you to be dependent on them. They get bigger government that way and secure their future.

I've found the Democrats just want you to be dependent on them. They get bigger government that way and secure their future.

That's a good point. I'd address that by saying that Pros and Cons look at Govt in two different ways. Pros look at it as being there to help people live up to they're fullest and freeest version of self. Sales pitch aside, progressive gov't is accountable every 2-4 years. If they aren't in your best interest, kick them out.

Cons look at Govt as being evil and want to de-regulate everything and put it all into the hands of corporations, who's board members aren't accountable to anyone, for anything.

For me it's a simple choice. I crave accountability for for those who would write laws that effect me and mine.

Therefore, I want socialized medicine. Just from a cost perspective, it'd be good for anyone in business.

Big government and big unions produce NOTHING! Both are better known these days for corruption, graft and dishonesty.

Really? Because my Grandfather died many years before my Grandmother did. Thanks to The HUGE Union he was a member of, she didn't have to worry about money for almost 40 years.
See, the UNION in question protected my Grandfather's pension, and then paid it out for 4 decades. Now, Grandma was a smart Irish lady, but financially saavy she was not. I'd assume that if her social security or pension plans were privatized, that she'd have starved. Why do you hate my Grandma Cons?

And what about Bush's wet dream to privatize Social Security? Who would handle such a large outpouring of funds? Would it be the large banking institutions? Big companies?

Conservatism has accomplished something. They've destroyed this nation from Reagan on up. Those years were productive because of all the borrowing. The following years, the 1990's were really productive for the Chinese, ya know, as they took almost all our manufacturing based on text book, conservative economic practices. Clinton wasn't liberal, he was just Reagan Lite.

Also, I'm sensing a lot of Hillary bashing. I know, it's the Con's way. Not to rub it in too much, but you're bashing on Hill because your side's got nothin this cycle. I'd be angry too.

So let's see here...I should want MORE gov't because MORE regulation determines that the REGULATIONS are being followed? How will more rules prevent the rules that are currently being broken, manipulated and mangled from happening?

I'm liberal in that I can think for myself and judge situations using reason and experience. I'm conservative in that I respect the ideals and traditions that people before me instituted to protect MY freedoms.

Taxonomically speaking...I'm a libertarian. If we must have labels and names, let that be mine.

Taxes are abominable. They should not be imposed on the citizens. Period. Paying a TAX for the honor of being employed? The amount of money that I'm taxed doesn't even make it as far as the national budget. The tax monies collected from private citizens, rich & poor, never make it to the books. Well, in a loony sort of write it in, write it out, funny-book ledger way it does. Yours, my & ours tax dollars don't pay for a single item that we TAXPAYERS like to say was "paid for with your tax dollars". The federal budget is based on wants, wishes & pork funds. Add on a cost of living increase. Now borrow that and spend MORE than what was budgeted. Even if ALL of our tax monies were allocated to the federal deficit, it would take something on the order of 42 years to pay down the debt...at current levels. With no growth or expenditure from "tax dollars" during that time. God would I hate to see the conditions of the federal interstate system by that time! Taxing corporations...taxing incoming products (tariffs)....taxing outgoing products (levies)...these are constitutionally supported and I agree with 100%. These are also where the majority of TAX DOLLARS originate, that are spent on federal projects. Whether you think XYZ Corp. is paying ENOUGH taxes is not the point, the point is that whatever taxes they do pay is far more than most states citizens federal income tax dollars combined is. And there are 1000's of these corporations that are paying.

Nationalized health care? No thanks. Swedens tax rate is something between 35-40% per person. For free health care & education? Thanks, but no thanks. Any federal program that I'm unwillingly forced into with its attendant loss of individuality so that my fellow Americans can enjoy cheap drugs is abhorrent. Diabetes? Heart Disease? Liver Cancer? Sorry, take care of your body...not MY problem. Until you dip into my pocket to help yourself to money I've earned to correct a problem you helped cause. Not all diseases are self-inflicted, I understand. The top health problems in America ARE self-inflicted due to lack of exercise, improper diet, lack of attention to medical issues BEFORE they become out of control, etc AD NAUSEUM!

As long as people are too lazy or too stupid to realize the cause of their problems or "issues" originate with THEMSELVES, no politician or program will fix the problem. And most people aren't ignorant...they're stupid. If you have access to information and choose to disregard it, you can't say you didn't know. But if you choose to ignore it, that's where stupidity steps in.

Sorry for all the people who were busy spending themselves into debt...not my job or responsibility to provide a pension for you. Try something called SAVING money. It works. It might not make you rich, but it will be more than nothing and won't require you FORCING your neighbors to carry your weight. Your kid is a senior in high school and can't read? Sure, blame the teachers and society at large. Why should YOUR kid be YOUR responsibility? Just TAX me some more. That'll fix the problem. Seriously, regardless of which color kool-aid you've been drinking, the problem isn't the kool-aid, it's the goddamned person drinking it. If you don't like the candidates, DON'T vote for them. WRITE your candidate of choice in. We don't have to accept the jackasses who run or their so-called policies. And I don't have to accept the jackasses who think that helping themselves to money that I earned is the correct and proper thing to do. Those people are called thieves. And if I caught an individual emptying my wallet for their personal gratification, I'd break their hands for MINE. Wake up people. THINK. It's the one thing that's private and no one else can take from you or force on you. Be objective. Be fair. Or don't ask myself or other service people like myself to help you retrieve what you willingly gave away.

End of rant

Really? Because my Grandfather died many years before my Grandmother did. Thanks to The HUGE Union he was a member of, she didn't have to worry about money for almost 40 years.
See, the UNION in question protected my Grandfather's pension, and then paid it out for 4 decades. Now, Grandma was a smart Irish lady, but financially saavy she was not. I'd assume that if her social security or pension plans were privatized, that she'd have starved. Why do you hate my Grandma Cons?

What an absurd question full of spite and intolerance to opposing views. Over 40 years only 10-15 were actually earned income based on statistics of withholding. The remainder was placed on the backs of many whom were strong armed into paying dues. Not much different than paying taxes in other social programs that were sold as voluntary, only not?

If there were a threat of her starving, how much responsibility would you have taken to prevent that? Maybe seeking out another social program to foot the bill? How noble of you! Should the "con's" ask if this would implicate that you and your family cared less about her by avoiding footing the FULL bill for one of your own?

Social Security was a gamble the government never expected to be collected long term. Having it voluntary was surely a flawed concept to fund without a cash flow. You can opt out of collecting, but you couldn't opt out of paying. Then some numbskulls turned it into a readily tappable cash cow for totally unrelated governmental purposes.

And what about Bush's wet dream to privatize Social Security? Who would handle such a large outpouring of funds? Would it be the large banking institutions? Big companies?

Again, isn't the above a perfect example "privatized" or should we label it "communized" income that has no set value of return or guarantee of benefits? Sounds like a wet dream that paid off in your world as the economy flourished. Fills ya with a sense of pride does it? It is still another piramid scheme since those at the end of the line will eventually be the first to get screwed.

Who would handle such a large outpouring of funds? Probably the same that would handle funding for socialized medicine. Which is more managable, a percentage of retirees once a month or the whole country legal or not 365 days a year?



Conservatism has accomplished something. They've destroyed this nation from Reagan on up. Those years were productive because of all the borrowing. The following years, the 1990's were really productive for the Chinese, ya know, as they took almost all our manufacturing based on text book, conservative economic practices. Clinton wasn't liberal, he was just Reagan Lite.

The argument can be made that Clinton was paying back favors to the Chinese for helping him get elected. I even see a similar scenario with Gore's satellite company. Some can make a fairly reasonable case that this administration road the wave started by Reagan, but take full credit for things in the economy far outside of their control. More shell games, but same little pea~

Destroyed? If you have a job, a roof over your head and can afford to be here on the web, I'd think destroyed is a major exageration. Look at the rest of the world and prove how much worse off you are than 90% of other living humans on this planet.

If it is all borrowed money debt created by "con's", where is the funding going to come from to pay for all the new proposed social programs that get offered as voter bait in progressive promises? Self evident why they no longer call it "FREE HEATH CARE". Another program you can opt out of but you will probably be fined for not participating.

Also, I'm sensing a lot of Hillary bashing. I know, it's the Con's way. Not to rub it in too much, but you're bashing on Hill because your side's got nothin this cycle. I'd be angry too.


As Bill Cosby tried to point out in cultural dilemma's. The reflection you cast on others is blinded by what you ignore in yourself. On those terms, I think there is plenty of bashing and kool-aid to go around. It becomes painfully obvious when your partisan complaints and annoyances are chasing your own tail, yet you remain part of the problem, not the solution! As if we just listen to you and your rhetoric, the world would be a new utopia.

No one has it all figured out, save for the perception and illusion to get you to believe one version of truth over another. Say it often enough, and it'll hold enough water regardless which side of the fence you chose.

DC

What an absurd question full of spite and intolerance to opposing views.


Yes, it is full of spite. I'm a divider, not a uniter. After living through these past few years of conservative Gov't, after hearing what I've heard, mostly about patriots like Max Cleland, I've learned to hit hard and hit 1st. With that said, do I look like a Democrat to you?

Should the "con's" ask if this would implicate that you and your family cared less about her by avoiding footing the FULL bill for one of your own?

Go ahead, I would retort that I live in a society. In this society, we, as a society take care of those who've made it a great society by honoring Senior Citizens through quality of life payments. We all commit to contributing to the commons.



Social Security was a gamble the government never expected to be collected long term. Having it voluntary was surely a flawed concept to fund without a cash flow.


Nope. Social Security is a guaranteed retirement for the working class of The USA. Social Security has lifted about half of it's retirement aged recipients out of poverty. I like living in a world where old people aren't living in the streets. I only wish it could get better.

Then some numbskulls turned it into a readily tappable cash cow for totally unrelated governmental purposes.

Please clarify that statement for me.

Again, isn't the above a perfect example "privatized" or should we label it "communized" income that has no set value of return or guarantee of benefits?Sounds like a wet dream that paid off in your world as the economy flourished

The economy only flourished because those "Communists" as you just called them, who now receive social security payments went to work to build and support that economy. Thanks commies! Nice word usage by the way. Nevermind that ACTUAL Chinese Communists are our nation's largest importer now.

It is still another pyramid scheme since those at the end of the line will eventually be the first to get screwed.

Actually, that's not true at all. Social Security's supposed insolvency is a common conservative scare tactic. The numbers used in that particular equation are based on the lowest possible economic growth figures until 2042. Social Security will be A-OK. It would be alot better if the taxes on people who use more of our infrastructure, the wealthy, who should also, for just that usage, pay more of the cost for said infrastructure, would go up.

Which is more managable, a percentage of retirees once a month or the whole country legal or not 365 days a year?
Apparently, it's the whole population, the whole time. Veterans for instance, who use the state run system for health care, recieve better, more efficient care than anyone else. This is due to the fact that their system is more effieciently run than any other in the country. It's run by the Gov't. It's far cheaper, faster and more qualitative than your care or mine. As for illegals, that's not in my scope of protectionism. I'll only say that a country like Mexico on our borders is a little embarrassing. It's a blight. I wish they had more industry, more unions, a better life, so that they'd all stay in Mexico, that they didn't have to illegally work here. It's a bit like how many Canadians think of us Americans I'd imagine.

The argument can be made that Clinton was paying back favors to the Chinese for helping him get elected.
I'm sorry, did you just state that Clinton allowed a communist nation to run roughshod over our entire economy for campaign contributions? That's totally ridiculous. If anything at all, it's the economist Allan Greenspan and his entire school of conservative economic thought that allowed our market to be saturated with low cost goods.
It's called supply side economics. The theory goes, if there is supply, demand will follow. It's obvious that in any kind of reality based in fact, that someone has to want something in order to then commit to purchasing it.

Look at the rest of the world and prove how much worse off you are than 90% of other living humans on this planet
Really? You wanna look at the rest of the world? Should we start with the sinking value of our dollar? Should we then look at the health statistics of other industrialized nations? Maybe other industrialized nations with "Socialized Medicine?
I think you wanna compare us to 3rd world nations. Give the supply siders another decade and we'll be able to very easily make that comparison.

It becomes painfully obvious when your partisan complaints and annoyances are chasing your own tail, yet you remain part of the problem, not the solution! As if we just listen to you and your rhetoric, the world would be a new utopia.
The band Tool says that "The Universe is hostile, so impersonal, devour to survive, so it is, so it's always been." I'm with about half of that statement. Liberalism, Progressivism is the closest thing we have in politics to the natural behavior of mammals. We group together to survive a harsh environment. It's not communism because we get to vote. It's that simple. The line is drawn in the voting booth, so it is, so it's always been.

I should want MORE gov't because MORE regulation determines that the REGULATIONS are being followed? How will more rules prevent the rules that are currently being broken, manipulated and mangled from happening

That's what regulations do. We have an endless list of toothless regualtions. The system is flawed. Lobbyists, special interests, and huge amounts of money are all very serious issues. I can certainly understand where this line of thinking comes from. I just look forthe silver lining is all.

Taxes are abominable.

I agree, partially anyway. Taxes for my part are disgusting. For corporations, especially the big, multi national corps, they're disgustingly low. The playing field is slanted in favor of making money off of moving money, capitol gains. It's really a sad state of affairs.
It's funny though, that almost everything ever done to further liberty in this nation, has been done to avoid taxation. It's very rich people who twist that message to include their helpless trust funds and faceless corporation's impoverished stock holders. It's truly sickening.

Nationalized health care? No thanks. Swedens tax rate is something between 35-40% per person. For free health care & education? Thanks, but no thanks.

We aren't in Sweden. Taxes won't ever be that severe on Joe Six Pack. We do need free education AND free health care, just to compete properly. But taxes should be severe on the very wealthy, not the very working class. Republicans are, for the most part, only defending their fiscal ideals. Any other message is only used to gain votes. Be it God, guns, gays, whatever. It's all about the money. I think Bush has proven that to all of us.

As for the rest, I think it's mostly selfish thinking. Just my opinion, certainly not an indictment of your character Wyld. To make policy for masses of people, you'd have to look at the most adversely affected segments of those same people, so as not to forget their needs. Anything else is elitism.

That's what regulations do. We have an endless list of toothless regualtions. The system is flawed. Lobbyists, special interests, and huge amounts of money are all very serious issues. I can certainly understand where this line of thinking comes from. I just look forthe silver lining is all.



I agree, partially anyway. Taxes for my part are disgusting. For corporations, especially the big, multi national corps, they're disgustingly low. The playing field is slanted in favor of making money off of moving money, capitol gains. It's really a sad state of affairs.
It's funny though, that almost everything ever done to further liberty in this nation, has been done to avoid taxation. It's very rich people who twist that message to include their helpless trust funds and faceless corporation's impoverished stock holders. It's truly sickening.



We aren't in Sweden. Taxes won't ever be that severe on Joe Six Pack. We do need free education AND free health care, just to compete properly. But taxes should be severe on the very wealthy, not the very working class. Republicans are, for the most part, only defending their fiscal ideals. Any other message is only used to gain votes. Be it God, guns, gays, whatever. It's all about the money. I think Bush has proven that to all of us.

As for the rest, I think it's mostly selfish thinking. Just my opinion, certainly not an indictment of your character Wyld. To make policy for masses of people, you'd have to look at the most adversely affected segments of those same people, so as not to forget their needs. Anything else is elitism.

Man is a selfish creature DANG. I don't mind thinking of myself. No one else does. I don't want handouts. If I can't earn it, I don't deserve it. Plain & simple. I'm tired of whiny cry-babies who are too lazy to get off their fat ass and work for what they want. And yes, I am speaking of 90% of Americans. My own country folk. I have two jobs, (40 hrs & 20 hrs+) plus I carry 12 credit hours or more every semester at night school. Don't see me crying because I can't afford an Escalade and a 72" plasma TV. I'm enlightened enough to realize that LIFE is a risk. That nothing goes as planned.

Ever been in battle? Shot at in the dark by people you don't know? Met the enemy face to face and had to make a decision to kill or be killed? That's about as selfish as it gets...for the most inane reasons. If I had my druthers, I'd have been on a beach in North Carolina, drinking beer, rather than shooting a rebel in Bosnia. But I didn't have my druthers, so my next best choice was to come home alive so I could have that beer on the beach. I had nothing personal against the Christians or the Muslims in Bosnia. But we were playing our roles. My role was not to be prey. We had all kinds of plans...and contingency plans. Back up plans. A, B, C plans. They all went to ****, when real life intervened. We fell back on training and on eachothers strengths. The fact that I had to take lives during my term of service does not mean that I did my job. In means that I did what I had to do to complete my mission. No job is completed if you're dead or dying.

If people don't want to be poor...SAVE MONEY! If people don't want to starve...EARN MONEY! Life does not get any simpler. Call me selfish for pointing out the obvious.

Have you ever read the fable of the ants and the grasshopper? The ants worked all summer to save food for the coming winter and the grasshopper played all summer only to have winter set upon him with no stores? Well guess what...I'm not a grasshopper, and I don't care if I'm outnumbered. MAJORITY RULE is DEMOCRATIC rule. Only so long as YOU'RE in the MAJORITY...aka MOB RULE. Just because someone has greater numbers does not make them correct. I pity the ignorant S.O.B.'s who think they can come on my property and help themselves to what I've earned, made or purchased because they were too lazy to provide for themselves. When I run out of ammo, there will be bodies stacked 10 high, and then they will get to see the full force of American mean via hand-to-hand combat. No Queensbury rules in QCB. Every man for himself and I have sweated in training to avoid bleeding in combat.

Most people are PARASITES. They drain, they do not help fill. Sorry if this offends you. I am not an elitist. I don't give two ****s where someone went to school or who their daddy is. If they can't hack their job, their studies, their commmitments, **** them. I'd rather stand shoulder to shoulder with people who understand that we are a power outage & a few days away from being animals again. That the thin veneer of civility wears away quickly when our creature comforts and daily routines are interrupted.

I can hunt, fish and harvest from nature. I have a garden. I can fix or repair most items. I can create a tool from basic materials. I am also well read and educated. I am trained in the arts of war. I enjoy the theatre and musical presentations. I am constantly reinventing myself and learning from the past. I do this because I am able. Just as everyone else who isn't developmentally disabled or too ****ing lazy to CONTRIBUTE to society instead of whine because 10% of the population isn't providing for the 90% who think they are ENTITLED to it, simply because they are sucking MY air and breeding like rodents.

To think that a COMMON SENSE form of gov't is impractical because I haven't considered "average Joe SixPack" is laughable. I have considered "average Joe SixPack" and I find him wanting. Dinner is served at 7. You know where the table is and you better wash your hands. If you haven't contributed you will wait until those who have, have had their fill. THAT IS REAL LIFE.

For all the CONSUMERS out there who have no idea what goes into PRODUCING their shiny bits, a real education is when you are alone, in the wilderness, with no instruction booklet or 800 number, and that shiny bit may be the difference between surviving and becoming a statistic. Appreciation is a funny thing...what we take for granted, we assume to be deserving of...until it is no longer available on a whim and we realize how truly fortunate we are to have had it while it lasted.

No, I've never been in combat.
Thanks.
No, I'm not sleep deprived either.
I'm not a Dem because I enjoy paying taxes, taking guns or lowering the bar for Joe Six Pack. I enjoy that stuff, minus the taxes, but it ain't why.
I'm a Dem because it makes sense to me. Some of the time anyway. Honestly, I'd just as soon punch up the Dems in power right now as have a conversation with them. I wouldn't make it in politics.
I suppose I'm a Dem because I hate to see people fall into the cracks. As a simple worker bee, I'd rather fill those cracks in with regulatory granite than widen them so only corporations or generationally wealthy types can escape their grasp.
In other words, rather than just assuming that there are too many regulations, I'd alternately choose to be a part of creating and sustaining those rules. For me, it's regulations what build bridges that don't collapse a week later. It's regulations what protect people.
Since you have been in combat. I'll only say this, and I'll say it respectfully as well. If you knew what Bush and his crew have done to Veteran's benefits. How they've cut this program and scaled back that one. How they've staffed Veteran's affairs with hack political appointee's who will do only their bidding at the highest levels. How they've staffed high level positions in Iraq, in theater, with 22 year olds who know nothing about what they're doing. About how they've done all this on purpose so as to blame incompetence for any shortfall which might and will occur. If you knew that Walter Reed were in the state that it's in because the guy in charge of every army hospital in Conus tried to run those hospitals like a business, instead of a hospital, you might be voting Dem in the next election. Maybe alot more than voting.
Big Government isn't a bad thing. Like I said, it's accountable. Big corporation isn't.
Maybe next time I'll tell ya'll about the company who makes the body armor for our troops and how if they made that same body armor to any actual spec, if it worked correctly, or if they didn't have a CEO who stole 6 million bux from his company to throw a party for his daughter, a party with Kenny G greeting people at the door, with Freakin Aerosmith as it's live headliner act, how that company and that CEO wouldn't be under investigation by congress.

More liberal lunacy from the left. What sources do you get this from?

What looks good on paper does not always work well in reality. Oxymoronic complaints of governmental powers that exist today, yet willing to hand your team more power to regulate gains on industry and impose greater controls, burdens and less rights on private citizens that are trying the best they can to earn an honest living with 40-60% of what is left after taxes. Bigger government means bigger taxes, but less going for the good of the people here. If 70 cents of ever dollar collected is wasted, you wanna make it 80? Where does it end?

Basic economics for Joe Six Pack, the simple worker bee is based on growth and efficiency of his employer to produce more for less. Corporations do not pay taxes, but they always end up with the same profit margin. That is a cost of doing business and is ultimately passed off in the product price. This is just another shell game while the state is milking the cash cow(you, me and Joe). The end result is Joe Six Pack must work more or make more to support his meager existence. It is inflationary and compounds the loss in value of the dollar he already worked for. This forces him to buy imported junk from the despised supply side that has been made available within his means. That creates a demand for outsourcing. If that affliction comes to your industry that can no longer afford to offer the same product, you lose and must move on. Chances are your skills won't be required so you take a lower wage in another industry, service or say the hell with that and seek entitlements from the treasury. How dense is that path?

Safety regulations on construction of bridges is a bad analogy for the sake of comparison in regulating where corporate profits get redistributed.

Round and round, you will never catch up to your tail. It is not ok when this administration screws people, but it's fine if the dem's do it with your blessing. The current admin is not conservative by any definition of the word.

The only thing you have stated that I can agree with is that SS should be funded for our elderly, which we will hopefully be part of some day. I think that can be done with the other trillions of dollars they take out of the economy already. If a union can handle privatizing retirement accounts, then why can't I control the same funds and get a better return in the future dollars value.

This is not really worth the time to post all this. It resolves nothing! Control freaks are never satisfied......but they will argue until you no longer challenge their baiting.

DC

More liberal lunacy from the left. What sources do you get this from?

The Social Security stuff came from an op-ed written by the grandson of Former THREE TERM President FDR. FDR is that guy who saw our nation through The Great Depression, and WW2. He put our whole nation back to work building stuff like Baseball Fields, National Parks, Dams, Bridges, Roads. you name it. He also instituted Social Security. He's on the dime.

The rest comes from a brilliant radio show host/author/alotta other stuff named Thom Hartmann. Hartmann's about as liberal as you can get. Every day he has a different Conservative on, so people like me get to hear the other side of the story.
One of Thom's books, I believe the most recent is about the use of language to confuse people. The word conservative for instance, total obfuscation. It means that they're conservative with THEIR money. Not yours, not mine, not anyone's who isn't a union busting gazillionaire.
liberal lunacy from the left
Control freaks

When I have more time, I'll pick that last post apart like I did the one before it. I won't even call anyone names, or label them inhuman.

My sources:
http://www.commondreams.org
http://www.thomhartmann.com/

Oh yes, there were some things that FDR did that were great. One was remove the US from the gold standard which some claim led to the collapse of the economy and err go the great depression. All relative to which FDR made gold illegal to own in coin form. Then he used the tax of fiat money to jump start an economy he may have helped ruin. I am sure there were other things at play with the rest of the world placing greater value on gold than funny money used for unit trade denominations.

His zealous use of executive powers were not looked upon with fondness, but he was a great leader when we desperately needed one. The moral character of this current lot is abysmal as the democratic party evolved into the chaos it is today. I don't trust any of them on either side. Both use obfuscation to dance around the fine print and sell mis-information to gain power, in an effort to make the people powerless.

SS was his greatest gift but it has since been used for more than intended, robbed and filled with IOU's and never really kept pace with inflation. At the time, there was speculation given the life expectancy, most would never collect from it to keep it solvent. I'll give that a bi-partisan disaster through many administrations. My take is that at least Bush had given an option to get it out of the hands of the legislative branch of thieves where some of it could have a better chance to grow.

I just flat will not support a party that forces special rights for lifestyle perversions and touts fetal death as a form of birth control when prevention and personal responsibility should be a higher priority. My vote is all I have, but activist judges dictate whether someone else's fictional rights trump my morals.



Go ahead and tear them apart with your own regurgitation of talking points, for your own justifications. This is not an entertaining or informative tit-for-tat.....

DC

I don't know about too many talking points. It seems to me that Republicans rely more on that sort of thing than do Dems. As far as the gold standard goes, we were on it until Nixon outlawed the trading of dollars for gold in 1971. So, in fact it was Nixon, a con and a criminal who took us completely off the gold standard in favor of inflationary currency.
Look up The Bretton Woods System, which is I believe what you're talking about as far as FDR goes.
I will not defend the current crop of Dems in office.

prevention and personal responsibility
I agree, somewhat. This is a major bottleneck between the two parties. I believe teenagers should be educated in order to better prevent pregnancies. As far as outlawing abortions, it's not really my place to tell anyone what they can and can't do in private. In fact I'd say that it's un-american, not to mention cruel and short sighted to do so.

lifestyle perversions
I'll safely assume here that you're talking about gay people and not child predators, which is really where that sort of venom should be directed.
I'm not so sure that it's scientifically accurate to classify something that's pretty pervasive in nature as a perversion.
I'd also argue that homosexuality is biologically pre-determined and is not in fact a lifestyle choice. The funny bit about that is, that bigotry of any sort, is a lifestyle choice. Sadly, I'm still pro choice. I won't let ya talk me out of it.

I don't know about too many talking points. It seems to me that Republicans rely more on that sort of thing than do Dems. As far as the gold standard goes, we were on it until Nixon outlawed the trading of dollars for gold in 1971. So, in fact it was Nixon, a con and a criminal who took us completely off the gold standard in favor of inflationary currency.
Look up The Bretton Woods System, which is I believe what you're talking about as far as FDR goes.
I will not defend the current crop of Dems in office.

Odd how the media that makes a keeper of the faith blind to their own dirt! So, it depends on where you get your propaganda.....err news as they say. And I cannot defend the current crop of Republicans either. So few are true conservative in my book or lack the will to make it known.

http://economics.about.com/cs/money/a/gold_standard.htm

Bretton Woods hotel happened in 1944 and the agreement wasn't ratified until 46 as a means of stabilizing currency exchange rates amongst the main industrialized nations . As I understand it, Nixon had no choice to remove the fixed dollar price on gold, as it was falsely propping up the dollar globally. He shut it down so that other nations could not redeem there cash for our gold and increase inflation further. Drastic measures, but it turns out they were right at the time.

NYT article (http://http://query.nytimes.com/gst/fullpage.html?res=9F06E6D91230F932A35756C0A962958260)

It was inevitable to drop the value of the dollar to make our exports cheaper, which did stimulate the economy, but destabilized things for a while. While Nixon may have had his troubles, there were many things at play and players in the mix. At this point in history, it may be happening all over again. To point a finger at one individual is just plain silly. At least back in them days, they put their cigars in ash trays instead of interns! No president has been without scandals or mis-steps.


I agree, somewhat. This is a major bottleneck between the two parties. I believe teenagers should be educated in order to better prevent pregnancies. As far as outlawing abortions, it's not really my place to tell anyone what they can and can't do in private. In fact I'd say that it's un-american, not to mention cruel and short sighted to do so.


Hey, would ya look at that. See we can agree for the most part on this issue. It is all about education, not unplanned parenthood that offers drastic service options for a fee, after the fact. 3 million a year and far to many repeat visitors that never learn. I won't go as far as the right to life fanatics, but there is no excuse for stupidity when you know what causes it. It is a sickening practice to have a need for. Prevention should be a free multi-option before it ever gets that far. Be that the contraception, voluntary reversible sterilization or mandatory if that option is chosen as a second offense. It is cheaper than perpetuating welfare generations.

It is not my purpose to talk you out of your pro-choice leanings. It goes with the territory party line, but if there were greater consequences, the least we could do is cut it to less than 1/10 of the current level. I can say that I am pro-choice in one vein and that is, besides of my own children, it is none of my business what others do or how they take responsibility for their own mistakes in life. I really dislike the underhanded ways they shelter under aged girls from parental notification. I do not want my government supporting those laws and services with our tax dollars. Why the left makes these values of pride to run as a base platform for an "Inconvenient Death", I will never comprehend.

I'll safely assume here that you're talking about gay people and not child predators, which is really where that sort of venom should be directed.
I'm not so sure that it's scientifically accurate to classify something that's pretty pervasive in nature as a perversion.
I'd also argue that homosexuality is biologically pre-determined and is not in fact a lifestyle choice. The funny bit about that is, that bigotry of any sort, is a lifestyle choice. Sadly, I'm still pro choice. I won't let ya talk me out of it.

No, IMHO that would be ANY perversion. If main stream society is forced to accept one perversion, you can no longer draw a line against any other. I'll be tolerant and respectful as long as it is not forced in my face or forced in my presence against my will. I don't think any employer should be forced to put up with the disruptions against their will either.

I'd raise you that maybe 1% are biologically predetermined out of the 6% that push this agenda against the majority of the people in a democracy. I am guessing the rest are recruited in some fashion or another. Pervasive in nature amongst what animals, monkeys, birds? There are probably about as many that remove them from the gene pool for such acts also. There are many odd behaviors that occur in nature and as humans, we don't put them ahead of the greater population.

Correct you are about bigotry as a lifestyle choice. As a SWAG, there are more of them than 6%, you'd think some would be pushing for special protection laws also. What is good for the goose? It seems to be a commonly accepted sentiment with the extreme left against Christians and Jews. It is not overtly prejudice, it is protectionist in controlling ones own environment. Not to be confused or blurred as hate crimes against life or limb, that is a whole different issue. I guess we have to put this in the same category.....it's just another one of those things that happens in nature biologically predetermined. There must be such a thing as bigotry against bigots, so who is to say who is being oppressed and dehumanized.

I know of at least one recent convert TV that has used the system to avoid support for 4 children, while he has enrolled in welfare and is going to school without the need for employment because he has been labeled "gender confused" after he started visiting a "gender confused" therapist. I fear the troubles his children will face in life and the effects are showing in their adolescence. There is a great amount of selfishness in that lifestyle which brings more misery and embarrassment to the whole family.

It takes a lot to make the world go round, but it takes so much less to make it go to hell. Insert your version of hell here, ____________

DC

I'm sorry, but I have no idea what a swag is. I get the TV thing but not the other.

That TV thing is like, the worst possible scenario. I can't even imagine what it'd go to school for. I 'd really like to insert a joke here. I just don't wanna get banned. That's horrible and not at all what I meant by what anti elitist public servants should pay attention to. I dunno. I may have to unsubscribe from this thread after that. Geez.

SWAG=sophisticated wild ass guess?

Yes, it is a worst case scenario, but by the standards of the left, it is a package deal and only one facet of their moral indignities. Opening that Pandora's box does nothing positive for society as a whole. The giddiness in the shock factor will be wild by comparison to what the civil union/moderate protesters are hoping for.

DC

I'm sorry, but I have no idea what a swag is. I get the TV thing but not the other.

That TV thing is like, the worst possible scenario. I can't even imagine what it'd go to school for. I 'd really like to insert a joke here. I just don't wanna get banned. That's horrible and not at all what I meant by what anti elitist public servants should pay attention to. I dunno. I may have to unsubscribe from this thread after that. Geez.

I am Joe six pack and am quite happy about it.I also am a registered republican from New Jersey the most political corrupt state in the country.It is contolled by the most puke liberal left wing democrats this side of Ted Kennedy.I have been a toolmaker for 37 1/2 years and it is more than a job it is a passion.I have watched most of the mold and die work go offshore for the last 20 yrs.I have raised a family on one income and put 3 sons through college while my wife stayed home to take care of our responsibilities,not the governments but OUR"S.None are in jail or strung out on drugs,nor do they collect unemployment or welfare.I voted for GWB the last 2 times and I am not proud of that but I mainly voted against the democratic candidates.Next year I would vote for Pee Wee Herman if he was running against Hillary.I am so tired of tax and spend democratic rule.Dang, no offense here but were you born here or are you a immigrant?

No offense taken. I was born in Binghamton NY, I live in Fla now. I gotta disagree with you about politically corrupt states. Texas would be a good example, as well as Louisiana. Nobody does political corruption like the south.

Dems don't want to raise taxes on working or middle class people, or even small business owners. We're after the big, multinational fish. Or so I'm told anyway.
Also, I think it's time for conservatives to admit that in America, we'll need socialized medicine just to keep up with the rest of the world. If I'm only one injury or disease away from bankruptcy, or if I can't compete with foreign labor due to the cost of MY company's health benefits package, then how exactly does the American dream pay? Why even make the effort?

I voted for Nader in 2000, then Kerry in 2004, not that either of those votes counted. Nobody does election fraud like the Republicans.

Also,

If I made tools successfully for 37 1/2 years. I'd be proud too. Good on ya.

Dems don't want to raise taxes on working or middle class people, or even small business owners. We're after the big, multinational fish. Or so I'm told anyway.
Also, I think it's time for conservatives to admit that in America, we'll need socialized medicine just to keep up with the rest of the world. If I'm only one injury or disease away from bankruptcy, or if I can't compete with foreign labor due to the cost of MY company's health benefits package, then how exactly does the American dream pay? Why even make the effort?



it is always easy to tax someone else for what you want....the us versus them tactic is tried and true...punish success ...there are always those who want free stuff......as far as socialized medicine goes I would be terrified of the government in charge of about 25-30% of the US economy...like they do a great job right now with what they are in charge of...having lived in countries that have socialized medicine it is a terrible idea....and getting worse. i have relatives who live in Canada and have to have surgery here or wait forever. not only does the cancer survival rate in the US out strips any other country , we have the greatest research in the field of medicine unless some one can find a country that has more medical patents. face it socialism just does not work and the 60s were 40years ago and tie died shirts are still just wrong, rousing choruses of cum by ya just just does not work:-) :-) little joke:-)

Yeah,
I heard Guiliani say the same thing a few weeks ago.
Here's a fact check link.
http://ap.google.com/article/ALeqM5jTQuw866PTaudC0CeXN-518klm1gD8SLRU080
In short, the link says that Guiliani fudged the numbers a little bit. Not that big a deal. Socialized Medicine doesn't only cover Cancer. It covers everything. So that particular microcosm is a pointless comparison.

We don't wanna tax success, we want to tax corporations based on the amount of infrastructure they use to run their businesses. I think that's fair when it's properly thought out. More use of what taxes buy should require more payment into the tax system. How many Wal-Mart or UPS trucks do you see out on the roads? Think they pay more taxes by percentage than average citizens? They don't. Think they pollute more than average citizens? They do.
Medical patents don't mean much when you consider that most of those are drug patents, which means that every variant of that particular drug is also patented. That's a talking point I heard straight from GW. Besides, research is on the downslope in this country in every field, not just medicine. It's part of the reason why we Dems also want the Wal Marts and and their owners to pay for some free college. We graduate less of everything than mostly everyone else.
In France a citizen can go to college for free up to a PHD. The current Conservative wants to change all that. France is gonna protest this starting on Nov 29th. The whoole country will be shut down. Sacre Blu!

it is too bad i do not have the means to post hard copy public health papers here...talking points .....ad homonym comments aren't discussion. you should read actual public health reports from major university's they do publish them, it may take some time but it is interesting. better to make up your own mind as for France,england their cancer survival rates are far worse than ours and they also have age limits on many treatments. as for taxing, i think you should go read the tax break downs as to distribution..these are also published.....you will find you are horribly mistaken. as FAR AS UPS trucks using roads..(big business).... that is called providing jobs that pay the taxes that you love and services that you like. big business is good....you drive their cars ,wear their their clothes, buy their computers use their phones...ect.,and benefit from lower prices .i think you will find if you look at all of the revenue generated by big business, salaries,taxes and everything else it hard to
say they are evil...at least over coffee (starbucks).... o evil big business employing tens of thousands.....oooppss success.....or it would it be better if star bucks was just a coffee shop with 7 employees...I mean this lite hearted..just chatting:-)

Where are the links dude?
These numbers are published? Where?

Big business exists in this country because we the people allow it to. We're the largest market in the world. For some reason people think that success in America is equal to less participation in the improvement of America.
I wonder of that reason has anything to do with Neocons hiring huge advertising firms to soften the image of a corporatist dictatorship so they can get away with whatever they want.
Is any one single person who hasn't inherited over 10 million dollars really concerned with a "Death Tax", or as it was originally labeled, an "Inheritance Tax"?

Is there even such a thing as a "Free Market"? Or is a market just people trading with each other while observing a set of regulations put forth to protect consumers against predatory business practices; and alternately, protecting business against predatory fraud practices?

I could go on and on. I could even provide links.

this is interesting... i am not the people you site....the people you quote are not me nore are they my sources....i was not referring to prostate cancer via Guiliani....i get my sources from reading raw reports not from non digested sources.i find the later to be of little value. i live near several universities and stop in to read new papers. your local university is a great resource as is your local library.mine will bring research papers in you! .while you might assume that by dismissing what others have said you dismiss what i said. thats ok by me. just a thought.....having lived in Europe i think the things you like about their culture are the things that i think are holding them back.....i am not a fan of the nanny state...i do not feel entitled to anyone else's money ,property......i guess some just feel entitled ......not me.
if you are interested in some raw research ....UCLA'S SCHOOL
OF PUBLIC health did a series of studies that backing up Stanford's and YALE'S studies on socialized medicine in the 90's which do not agree with your possitions . so please don't assume these are talking points please, look up the studies before dismissing them. even the source you give is redacted ....read their full findings.....not what the ap says it says, they are interesting.

ooops i meant ...i look for non digested info........sorry

also i mean these comments in a easy going way.....that gets lost in these post when it is not intended...:-)

France is one of the poorest examples to use as a liberal paradise.

Ecomomic Index (http://www.heritage.org/research/features/index/country.cfm?id=france)

There are plenty more links that show what socialist systems do to a society, rather than what they actually provide for their people. You pick and choose the touchy-feely emotional frills, while ignoring the resulting impact.

In any economy there are only so many dollars to go around. You want to look at all corporate profit like Pavloves Dog, salivating as if only you could get your hands on it, robbing Peter, to pay Paul. Every indigent could be taken care of and the middle income would be free from the burden. If you would do your economic research, it never works. All you would accomplish is adding to the corporate cost to produce a product. The evil corporation would pass that cost off to the customer. Sure, now you have funded your welfare state by highjacking the economy to do so. It still ends up being a hidden tax on the middle income, no matter how you would like to spin it. Now it cost more dollars to buy the same product, which in effect has devalued the dollar. Crank up the presses, to make up for the difference.

You say, if it is thought out, it can be done. 1+1=2 cannot be thought out any different no matter what method of math you chose. I'd suspect your contarian views will attempt to prove economists wrong. Had the same thing been stated by your source, you'd call it brilliant liberism. Ugghhh, the insanity!

DC

Crank up the presses, to make up for the difference.

Isn't this exactly what's happening under conservative economic policy right this very instant? Isn't the dollar worth less right now, as we speak than it EVER has been? Since the Great Depression anyway. Isn't the fed back peddling furiously by lowering rates while CHINA has been selling off HUGE amounts of Dollars?
Very recently the American dollar was replaced as the world reserve currency with what economists are calling a "basket" of currencies. The Saudi's currency is no longer pinned to ours, meaning they haven't changed their rates as we have, something they've done for decades.
That conservative French President, addressed congress last week stating that American fiscal policy is so out of control that the world is literally reeling in it's wake. The mortgage crisis is actually affecting other economies who bought those repackaged loans from us.
Conservative fiscal policy, Reagan's policy, Bush's policy, Nixon's policy, has led us down a very dark path. I think I can safely say that at the moment, America is avoiding a DEEP recession by the skin of our teeth.
It really makes me miss the time when Carter said to us that we could freeze oil imports cold, 30 years ago.

Yup, Carter! THERE is a freaking GENIUS!

I have to agree with OneOfMany when he made his statement about personal responsibility. We are only held ACCOUNTABLE here in the U.S.A. when we've broken a law. Otherwise... c'est la vie! If we were made accountable for all of our actions throughout our lives (not through law enforcement and the legal system) with REAL consequences, people would wise up or perish. In nature, an animal can only be stupid and lazy for so long until they are wounded or eaten. In man's world, the actions of the stupid and lazy affect everyone ELSE who has not made the same mistakes. Cruel as it may sound, if people had to be responsible for themselves, you'd see far less stupidity in the world. Because those people would be dead and the stupidity they enacted with them. They would serve as examples...real examples. Because of man's ability to distance himself from the real world, death is one of the few experiences that can impact him enough to LEARN, instead of deny and deflect. You can't justify death...there is no time to contemplate the after effects. You're busy being dead. It's only mistakes we make and survive that we can afford the luxury of retrospect.

This is a sink or swim world. All of this...technology, money, hobbies, what we consider quality of life...is man-made. Companies go bankrupt, economies go into recesssion...but the world still revolves and man abides. ANIMAL man. We're part of nature and we reject that notion. Hunger, cold, death still afflict us. We're not APART. We never can be. The longer we delude ourselves that we are a natural catastrophe away from loss of civilization, the harder the fall.

We are the only animal in nature that destroys the environment in which he lives, to create an artificial environment. We kill EVERYTHING. Cut down the trees, plow under the prarie grass, pave everything, recreate the world in concrete and steel and glass. Chase off the species who once lived there. Throw up cookie cutter houses and put a domesticated feline in every living room and a domesticated canine in every backyard. When weeds invade our perfectly manicured Kentucky Blue Grass or Fescue yards, that is unpleasant native species try to move back in, we respond with chemical warfare. We poison ourselves with our chemicals in turn, but we suggest this is better than living with the world we have renounced. In our GOD-by-committee vision of what the world "should be". We live and work in boxes, only to be buried in boxes when we die. Because we are afraid of nature and being part of it. It won't surprise me at all when we convince women that artificial wombs are the best thing for the future of our species...because man has such an innate fear of nature that being born and reproduced in the antiseptic box of his own making is a better alternative than coming from natural means...with an added upside that women now won't get stretch marks or put on unwanted pregnancy pounds, but can still enjoy that beautiful pregnant glow! I'm not a technophobe by any means. I just think that mother nature got things right the first time around and all this repackaging we do is some inferiority complex. God is dead, so we remake him in our image. What nature has done with biological process we recreate with technological processes. What nature can accomplish with cells, with living tissue, we do with dead materials. We weld and machine and injection mold all manner of things because we can't grow them. We rape mother earth daily for all manner of shiny bits, because we're jealous and resentful that we can't provide our wants and desires with additive processes...so we use reductive processes within our means.

Man's reach exceeds his grasp. Always has, always will. Because too many people are whining, sniveling ****s when they are weak, outnumbered & clawing, howling beasts when they are strong, outnumbering. We will collapse as a species simply due to our own mass, parasites destroying their hosts, until they turn on eachother. Or, perhaps a little Soylent Green to get your morning started. Sounds farfetched? Catholics practice it every Mass. Eat your saviors flesh, drink his blood. Cannibalism at it's finest. Talk about true parasitism, the man died for your sins, and instead of reducing your sins and your guilt, you indulge further and insist on consuming yet MORE of him. Which is why it does not surprise me that a number of socialist leaning countries also embrace Catholicism.

At least you are consistent when you cannot defend your hyperbole, you change the dialog into a blame game , as you called it "to obfuscate". Your ideology of being a divider just leads to infighting like the Middle East. You are beginning to read like one of those code pink screaming banshee autistic O'donnellites. Blind seething hatred, stab it with your steely knife, but you just can't kill the beast!

Inside the US, the dollar has not taken that big of a loss yet. On the order of 3%, but a McGutPlug will still cost you the same today as yesterday, 1-3 bucks, not 5-6. Inflation was pushing 17% during the depression and 12+ during the Carter years that you miss. Today's is reported at 6, but I'd think the real data can show 10. Bad as the Great Depression was, exaggerations just carry water for the left agenda mud slingers.

The American dollar is/was a top tier value that other nations lean their currency on. In the global scheme of what a dollar will buy has changed for many reasons beyond your neo-con expletive uses. When fiat system stumbles, its holdings are dumped, period, throughout history. You would get that connection if you really comprehended what or why the Bretton Woods system was doomed in 1971 over the threat of dollar dumping. I already stated and concur that it is happening again. This is a totally seperate issue and not connected to the result of social health care we were discussing. Other than the fact that both are inflationary. One is happenstance, the other intentional money laundering!

You desire to pin all this on conservatives policies. [It's] The (global) economy stupid! To borrow liberal speak from your saviors. You call a 1/4 point change in the interest "backpedaling, when it is used as a tool to curb inflation as it always has been no matter who is in office. The federal reserve is a group of banks(big evil corporations) independent of any administration.

When you look for unbiased news, you get a better perspective . You have been programmed by the programs you trust by not questioning their motives and how they spin it. When I cannot tell the difference between opinion and fact, I turn to other sources. When I do a search, I am amazed at how much bias there is in reporting the same information. The angle you chose to relate with, may fit your paradigm, but may not be connected with reality, all things considered and not disclosed in the report.

Here is fair non-partisan assessment of the global picture (http://www.arabnews.com/?page=6&section=0&article=81903&d=9&m=5&y=2006) The changes did not start over night.


Spending is out of control. The legislative body spends everything they take times 2,3,10,20. Now your bloc proposes we add on more social programs and compound spending. Should we go back to the 1+1=2. True conservatives would stop spending, but we have none of those with power. True democrats promise the world, but deny hiding bigger and better ways to tax us into oblivion to support those promises.

Hillary & Co. have been grooming her image for the last couple years to appear more moderate in the media. What counts is her image, not what her track record reveals? How is that better than any Republican that runs as a conservative, but spends like a drunken sailor? Which I'd contend is a little bit of demagoguery in itself from both sides.

Sarkozy is pointing out the obvious. If the rest of the world can see our fiscal problems and the powers that be can ignore the indicators, sound advise will fall on deaf ears.

Investment is risky business. Especially when they are called sub-prime to qualify. Bad planning on someone else's part does not make for any sympathy from me. With an economy of funny money, super high credit liabilities, and global low confidence speculations driving up the price of commodities, $--t hits the fan. The top tier will forever be the first to fall.

Are you a home owner, raising children?

DC

DANG...you are SO out of touch. You think that the government is the answer. That some how government knows best. You think that because they are elected that they are accountable for there actions. The voting public is very apathetic to issues. Most vote the way they do because that is the way there parents vote. A really sad state of affairs. But if you research the issue, there is NO WAY anyone could vote democrat. Look at history. This country was founded by hard work and ambition. We were self reliant. We were responsible for our own future. Because of this we are the jewel of the world. It is only after our turn to socialist programs that we have taken a down turn of world opinion. Your system is the reason. I totally disagree with you on EVERY level. The federal government was started with the strict intention of national protection. Period. The states where beholden to the feds for very little. The states made there own rules for many issues. Now.. in our current (in my opinion) delema, the feds have WAY to much power. For example, S.S. That should NOT be a federal program. That is the individual's responsibility to plan for there own retirement. The feds get involved, and now it is a entitlement. WRONG!! How can you justify in any way that the feds are responsible for our retirement? That is totally inexcusable! Old habits die hard I guess, but that is the liberal plan for total control. You say that medical should be "free" How in the world can a socialized medical program be free? Who is paying for it? WE ARE... in higher taxes. There is NOTHING that is free in a social program. Or any government program. It is paid for with tax dollars. It cost you and me more money in taxes to fund these social programs. Programs that pay for people who are unwilling to contribute to the system. So you say that rich people and corporations don't pay there fare share of taxes. As a precentage of income, or wealth, the rich pay a far greater amount of taxes. You can't deny this if you are honest with your self. Let us say that the government increases the tax rate of a large corparation... say the oil industry. The government raises the tax rate 10% on there net profits. The company is publicly owned. (that means you or I could own stock in the company... hard to understand for you liberals) Wow.. that sounds great... TAX THE MAN!!! show him what for. Trouble is the company still has to make the share holders happy. (you and me.. if you have a brain and want to do good in retirement... cuz we know the libs totally f'ed up the SS. system, which shouldn't have been there in the first place) You just can't get the concept that the taxes are going to be paid. You tax the corperations more, the consumer pays the tax in higher prices. The profits will not suffer. But we will. With your socialist agenda, YOU will pay more in taxes, and you will get less for your money, but you were suckered in to believing that you are being fair. How is it fair that the richest pay upwards of 70% of there income, and that a family of 4 making some where around 30k doesn't pay anything? Research the CBO.gov and see where the tax dollars go. You should be ashamed of your self for such stupid, pie in the sky ideas, that your money will somehow make the world a better place. So totally unrealistic and damaging to the greatest country on God's green earth. We are responsible for our own happiness. the feds don't have a role in that area.

Chris

Well said,I couldn't agree with anything more

Most vote the way they do because that is the way there parents vote. A really sad state of affairs. But if you research the issue, there is NO WAY anyone could vote democrat. Look at history. This country was founded by hard work and ambition. We were self reliant. We were responsible for our own future. Because of this we are the jewel of the world.

Let's not kid ourselves. Look at the platforms of their party and the way the main stream media informs the populace in non-stop derogatory terms against sides they disagree with. Bias and illusion works in their favor. Anyone else does it, and it is labeled bigotry, racism, homophobe, among other litany of convictions. This all molds and manipulates to give the impression of factual news. If they report it without putting emotional attributes or proper context, it would not fit the image they are trying to create. Painting the picture is simple and near effortless once they have minds perfectly willing to soak it up.

Attraction for the rest. So many are predisposed due to their "predetermined proclivities", immigrant support therein, legal or not, women's right to choose, and free healthcare. Take note how they have changed the verbiage to make these more palatable if not falsely appealing to the masses. Kind of like saying someone has an "attitude problem" must now be stated as, they have "behavior issues". Don't even get me started on Christmas verses the Holiday Season nonsense.

I guess my sheltered life of personal responsibility, grit and brawn is being eroded away from Americana. Have were really come to the feminization of real men that cannot think or reason for themselves aside from external influence?




It is only after our turn to socialist programs that we have taken a down turn of world opinion. Your system is the reason. I totally disagree with you on EVERY level. The federal government was started with the strict intention of national protection. Period. The states where beholden to the feds for very little. The states made there own rules for many issues. Now.. in our current (in my opinion) delema, the feds have WAY to much power. For example, S.S. That should NOT be a federal program. That is the individual's responsibility to plan for there own retirement. The feds get involved, and now it is a entitlement. WRONG!! How can you justify in any way that the feds are responsible for our retirement? That is totally inexcusable! Old habits die hard I guess, but that is the liberal plan for total control.

You say that medical should be "free" How in the world can a socialized medical program be free? Who is paying for it? WE ARE... in higher taxes. There is NOTHING that is free in a social program. Or any government program. It is paid for with tax dollars. It cost you and me more money in taxes to fund these social programs. Programs that pay for people who are unwilling to contribute to the system. So you say that rich people and corporations don't pay there fare share of taxes. As a precentage of income, or wealth, the rich pay a far greater amount of taxes. You can't deny this if you are honest with your self. Let us say that the government increases the tax rate of a large corparation... say the oil industry. The government raises the tax rate 10% on there net profits. The company is publicly owned. (that means you or I could own stock in the company... hard to understand for you liberals) Wow.. that sounds great... TAX THE MAN!!! show him what for. Trouble is the company still has to make the share holders happy. (you and me.. if you have a brain and want to do good in retirement... cuz we know the libs totally f'ed up the SS. system, which shouldn't have been there in the first place) You just can't get the concept that the taxes are going to be paid. You tax the corperations more, the consumer pays the tax in higher prices. The profits will not suffer. But we will. With your socialist agenda, YOU will pay more in taxes, and you will get less for your money, but you were suckered in to believing that you are being fair. How is it fair that the richest pay upwards of 70% of there income, and that a family of 4 making some where around 30k doesn't pay anything? Research the CBO.gov and see where the tax dollars go. You should be ashamed of your self for such stupid, pie in the sky ideas, that your money will somehow make the world a better place. So totally unrealistic and damaging to the greatest country on God's green earth. We are responsible for our own happiness. the feds don't have a role in that area.

The rest of this could get us accused of "piling on" poor Dang. I hope there is no gender card at stake here. We may never draw the logic out and get to examine what makes a liberal tick.

DC

Let's not kid ourselves. Look at the platforms of their party and the way the main stream media informs the populace in non-stop derogatory terms against sides they disagree with. Bias and illusion works in their favor. Anyone else does it, and it is labeled bigotry, racism, homophobe, among other litany of convictions. This all molds and manipulates to give the impression of factual news. If they report it without putting emotional attributes or proper context, it would not fit the image they are trying to create. Painting the picture is simple and near effortless once they have minds perfectly willing to soak it up.

Attraction for the rest. So many are predisposed due to their "predetermined proclivities", immigrant support therein, legal or not, women's right to choose, and free healthcare. Take note how they have changed the verbiage to make these more palatable if not falsely appealing to the masses. Kind of like saying someone has an "attitude problem" must now be stated as, they have "behavior issues". Don't even get me started on Christmas verses the Holiday Season nonsense.

I guess my sheltered life of personal responsibility, grit and brawn is being eroded away from Americana. Have were really come to the feminization of real men that cannot think or reason for themselves aside from external influence?






The rest of this could get us accused of "piling on" poor Dang. I hope there is no gender card at stake here. We may never draw the logic out and get to examine what makes a liberal tick.

DC

So I guess we agree. ROFLMAO. The feminization of America. That is the major issue. After all, who wants pollution? who wants dirty water? Who wants babies to starve? (but it is ok to kill them brutally in the womb) Who would want to offend anyone? especially if they are offended to be told merry Christmas! How dare us offend anyone... except no one has the right not to be offended. We are so worried about stepping on some one elses culture that we trash our own. Now that I have taken this off a tangent... piling on poor dang? he is poor in judgment and lack of understanding of human nature only. That, or his pony tail is way to tight. But hey... if we can't set our emosionally sensitive friends straight, what kind of friends would we be?

I just read an article on MSN (http://msn.careerbuilder.com/custom/msn/careeradvice/viewarticle.aspx?articleid=1156&SiteId=cbmsnhp41156&sc_extcmp=JS_1156_home1&GT1=10466 (http://msn.careerbuilder.com/custom/msn/careeradvice/viewarticle.aspx?articleid=1156&SiteId=cbmsnhp41156&sc_extcmp=JS_1156_home1&GT1=10466)) about jobs that pay $25.00 an hour or better. Machinist is not ranked; in fact none of the trades are ranked. Why do people (and Democrats) always overlook the trades as providers of a good living? [/FONT]

i don t think the trades are shunned upon , or looked at as being the poor mans work , but it is looked at as WORK ,
we all want what is best for our kids , and i honestly don t want my kids to be to be in the same state as i am when they are my age , sure ive got the house the toys etc ,life is good ,but sometimes i hurt my back because i'm in to much of a rush and i'll lift the part onto the machine ,rather than to use the crane , i cut myself , my feet are often sore ever after relaxing thru the weekend , my hands are normally so stiff i find difficulty writing my own signature , i look at some of my friends who are well into their fourties who are ripped because they get out to workout regularly ,because theyve got easy jobs , i workout for 8hrs a day and my chest is dropping down to my waist , often i say to myself it time to get back to being the power house i was only a few years back but i'm just oh so happy to kick my feet up .i have no doubt my body is polluted with metals and petrolium products, i breath in oil and coolant enough that i can taste it many days ,people say smoking will kill me , they havent seen the smoke that pours out of the machines at times , i'm only 40 , ive got 25 more yrs before i can do what i really want

i'm sure many of the guys here feel the same way ,and they may or may not admit to it , no kind of work /job is to be over glorified ,there is far more to life

i like what i do but sometimes i think theres got the be a better way , and there was , further my education ,
but the cold hard fact is i'm a tradesman at heart and i get off on this crap and you couldn t pay me enough to push a pencil

do i want it for my kids NO!

Who would want to offend anyone? especially if they are offended to be told merry Christmas! How dare us offend anyone... except no one has the right not to be offended. We are so worried about stepping on some one elses culture that we trash our own.

We do not set out to offend or trash our own culture by offering good tidings in our countries traditions. All it takes is one complaint and an organization would rather add insult over the majority than risk legal repercussions supported by the lefts ACLU dictatorship of etiquette. Lately there have been employers that ban any American tradition even though there is no threat of employee retaliation, but potential loss of customers, vendors and capital. Although, their overtly public religious symbolisms are worn daily, but an American kid is forced to turn a T-shirt inside out at school, if it has anything Christian exposed. It is safer to white wash it from our heritage, to conform at the behest of a few. So much for democracy where majority rules, if the courts supersede the will of the people.

DC