i asked everyone to read my thread in hopes to get responses from both sides of the fence... so here we go.

Everyday i perform all duties that any other CNC setup man/supervisor would do in a shop like mine, i load/setup/first run every job that is assigned, i adjust offsets in tooling, fix 'operator errors', even fly program when tools disappear or changes need to be made, i am the only machinist in my shop that is trusted by the owner to get things done and also the only machinist trusted to run prototype parts without engineers breathing down my neck.

My problem is, i only make $12/hr, while supervising people making twice that. This is the first machine shop i have worked for, so im not really quite sure how to go about asking for a raise.

P.S. like i said im not by any means a genious and im not trying to be cocky but i just feel as if i deserve a little more for the stress and time i put into this company.

if anyone could give me some ideas on what to say or how to say it, and please shop owners let me know what i shouldnt say.

thanks

-john k
"mill bastard"
SW Florida

if you can do all that i'd say your underpaid
the problem your facing could be the same as what i faced when i started , some bosses dont seem to recognize how much youve grown and become an asset to them ,they still remember the young punk who walked in the door clueless .i became worth far more outside the doors of the first company i worked for than i was in them , and the boss refused to see that until i walked out the door .it took them months to recover ,and i'm not tooting my own horn ,they just put most of their eggs in one basket , i walked out with more knowledge of their machine setups than they knew themselves

have a talk with the boss he may be reasonable enough to want keep his investment (you) and work something out with you
if not look at what else is out there for you

I have been in the same spot, I worked for a signshop running there CNC department and had 3 guys working under me, I had to quite and be begged back before they would pay me over 15. If they are trusting you with this much it might be a time to just kindly mentions to your boss hey I feel I need a raise, or ask for a review and at the end of the good review say this is going so well I would like a raise. Or take it in for a little time get the experience and go to someone who will pay you

I think dertsap's advice is good but keep this in mind. If you are as competent as you suggest do you really want to continue working for someone who is so thick he does not recognise what you are worth and pay you accordingly.

Here is an approach you could consider. Tell your boss you think it might be a good idea if you gained experience in other places to round out your experience. But you want to keep the opportunity open to return after you have obtained this experience. The idea is that you leave without burning any bridges.

This approach gives you a double fallback option: If you find you are not as good as you think you are then you go back and accept whatever they offer. If you find that you are able to swing it no matter where you go and what you are expected to do then if they want you back they have to pay your price.

Geof's suggestion is a good one , the experience that you could recieve seeing how other companies work would be extremely valuable and many times eye opening ,but what counts is the experience you gain from it ,sometimes staying in the same company your knowledge comes to a plateau and can become stale and nonstimulating after a while

I agree with Geof, the smart move is not to burn your bridges.
There's a couple of things I would suggest as well from personal experience.

1) Start looking at the local newspapers and see what the average pay rate is for the area you live in.

2) Remeber this!!!! Whatever you dont get on your first interview you are less likely to get it in the future.

As long as you have confidence in your skills dont sell yourself short and remember the best time to find a job is when you have one. <-_->

Time to get some money............. wohooooooooooooooooooooooooooo

I was in a similar position myself about 8 yrs ago. Started at the bottom worked my way up to manage 45 guys. But I hit the top of what the owner was willing to pay. I honestly gave heart and soul for that job. But after I walked away I came to the conclusion that every company will pay you as little as they can for as long as they can. It is up to you to step up and say, I love this job but I am not being compensated accordingly. I feel I should be making X amount of money. If the owner is involved in his company like he should be then he knows what your worth. He just doesn't want to pay more than he has to. But if you are as good as you think you are then there is another company out there willing to pay you what you feel you are worth. Trust me I left my first job making 14 and started another making 18.

Hi MillB, First of all if you think you're worth more, have a look round for another job that will pay more.

Then go back, write out your resignation, if it's required, and present it politely with the customary notice period to be worked.
If your boss doesn't see the loss of you as being significent, then what have you got to lose? Don't look back.

All down through history those that burnt their bridges were the only ones that had decided that from that point there was NO going back, William The Conquorer for a start at the battle of Hastings.

At all costs do NOT indicate to ANYONE, best mates, girlfriend, pet dog that you are disgruntled about your work conditions, pay or any other reason that would put your bosses back up prematurely.

This way when you're good and ready you will have the advantage of shooting from the high ground and will be in command of your position.
I personally have used this strategy from the day I finished my apprenticeship and started out at the lowest pay they could give me.

My father's advice was always "If they're paying a few bob more down the street, that's where you'll find me".
I don't know how plentifull the job situation is round your way, but if it's as rare as rocking horse poo, then be prepared to up anchor and head for pastures new, I did, over 40 years, South Africa to Britain, to Australia, never looked back.

Just have courage, if you truly know what you're doing and you're as good as you think you are, do it.
Ian.

A good friend of mine once told me that your only worth what YOU think your worth. If you think that your worth more then 12 bucks an hour then you will get to where you want to be one way or another. When I finished my apprenticship my boss told me (off the record) that I should get out there in the world and work in alot of different shops to round out my skills. He was right. In the next few years I worked in several different shops and learned alot of new stuff. I never looked back and never settled for less money everytime I made a move. By the way where I live 12 bucks an hour is starting pay for a machine operator. That's a cycle start person who just puts the parts in the machine and hits the big green button!

I was in a similar way some while back, and talking to the bosses accomplished nothing. So, I said no more to them at all, I just started looking for other opertunities, applied with several, and after several called to veryfy my employment. I was quickly given a rather substancial raise so that i would forget about moving on ! This is probably the least invasive and most productive way of finding where you stand. And if it fails then you are already looking for a way of improving your situation.

I am there. I almost got a job father away for $2.00 more an hour, and when I told my boss he matched it. I still where ten hats and get paid for two but jobs in Michigan are few.

Seek our Lord and trust in Him.

Mill, i can tell you im in this situation right now with 12 an hour. So im looking for new jobs and doing waht cruiser has stated, if you keep pushing forward and never look back you will always be moving forward.
Just my 2 cents keep going from something better.

Times have changed. Machinists are in short supply. Any machinist working for less than $25.00 an hour is screwing himself and his family.

I don't know where you live in this Country but companies are sending there work over seas. Not only for lower wages, but also due to the shortage of experienced machinists here in this Country. Trade schools here in Minnesota are closing due to the lack of enrollment. I've taken many classes in Cad and the like, only to be the only student in the machine shop. The machines are setting idel. Why ? because it doesn't pay for anyone to want to do this as an occupation. The wages are to low for the skill involved.

I used to sell machine tools years ago. Today, many of those shop I sold to are no longer in business. They couldn't get experienced machinists.

I'm NOT talking about button pushers guys. I'm taking about the man who can do his own setups, test run first article parts, edits, program, inspect using CMM's or using a surface plate and actually doing the trig to inspect his parts. You hold the key to your future. Go out and sell yourself. The boss who pays minimum wages for your skill level can take a hike. Minneapolis area pays up to $30.00 an hour for good machinists. You decide what your worth.

Dado

if you do go applying to new jobs the #1 question not to answer when they ask is " how much are you currently making " ,instead turn it back to them and ask "how much are you willing to pay for the position i'm applying for " ,they will always try to entise you with a buck or two more than your making meanwhile they may have paid far more to get you ,.ive seen it done trust me
find out what the pay range is from bottom to the top

Hi all, like Dertsap said, they must BETTER what you're getting or you'll fall for the "we'll match their offer" scenario that is beloved of shopkeepers.

Sometimes you might have to take a sideways step to get where you want to go, like dropping out of a seniority position for a better paid bench job or working a night shift for the extra money, but once you've taken this move and got used to the extra bucks it's damm hard to go back to ordinary day shift pay, and that's a trap to definately avoid.

Above all else the market will only pay what the going rate is and you must be prepared to go to pastures new permanently if the local scene is lean.

Too many people lock themselves into a situation that would have been a no go area given a bit of forethought.
Ian.

I've seen the pay scale in Florida and it's way down there. Get with a job search engine like Monster and compare. I went from 16 per hr. in Ohio to 27 per hr. in California and didn't make it. A recruiter from California found my resume on Monster, made a big buck on my name, then watched me get laid off from the "dream Job" in less than a year in the semi-conductor industry.I found myself running home to Ohio with my cruise control set at 95 mph. and my tail between my legs on "September 11th". Money isn't everything either. If you like this job and have good friends there you should consider staying. Does 12 per hr. let you live comfortably? Everyone will always need more money. If you are honest about your skill you may be being taken advantage of. I've also seen it backfire when you can be replaced easily.

well first off, Id like to thank everyone for there input, I would have been on earlier but due to a freak tornado, all internet has been down (thank god that was all that I lost).
Rather than going back and quoting everyones responses, Ill just answer most of them generally,
1) I have checked news papers and monster, also searched off of my own knowledge, and have only found seriously a handful of machine shops within 75 miles (keep in mind I already drive almost 50 miles one way to work every day)
2) $12/hr is only 25 cents more an hour than my 17 year old brother earns making coffee at St@rbucks.
3) I AM stuck because the only ther shops around are either job shops (with no steady work) or medical suppliers and honestly I love what it is that I machine, the whole aspect of what I do and how its done and seeing the finished product amazes me.
4) I have confronted my immediate supervisor about my pay and i have asked him what he thought i should do about it (I know him on a personal level outside of work) he told me that I should gather all of the knowledge i could from our company and look at the situation as a college type situation, when I told him that $12/hr just isnt paying the bills he told me that I was lucky to be making what I was making with as little time on machines as I have and if I "couldnt handle the pressure, He has a new machinist starting in a week that could and I would go back to being an operator"
(To me that sounds like its already an idea in the works)

I know I shouldnt know what other people in our shop makes hourly, but unfortunatly I do and it is extremely hard for me to stomach the fact that I set-up operations and modify programs for a machinist with 20 some odd years of experience that takes in almost 2x my hourly income

woah is me, Im done ranting for a couple minutes, thank you for your time

-millbastard

Hi Millb, Do I get the impression that you are just a glorified button pusher?
Don't get me wrong, I'm not trying to be insulting, but if you are setting for someone who's getting twice your pay, why don't you do their job?

I get the impression that they are skilled workers with many years of experience, whereas as your boss says you are lucky to be getting what you are currently being paid for because anyone with a bit of machine setting CNC skill can do your job.

On the other side of the coin, if the boss has got another machinist starting soon, and you might be offered the opportunity to go back to being an operator, wouldn't that solve your problem as far as pay is concerned, seeing as how they get twice what you're getting ($24).

This is a bit of a puzzle situation, what have they ( the guys your setting for) got that you don't have?
It's possible, and I'm only hazarding a guess, that your boss can get any number of people that know how to set machines, but don't have the stamina to work all day at one, every day and make the output.
There's a big difference when it comes to working these machines as opposed to just setting them.

Whichever way you see it, your brother at Starbucks is better off financially and if it's more money you're after, your career path could be in coffee. LOL. Only joking.
Ian.

I must admit i would love to follow that path of a machinest but there just isnt any money in it unless you have years under your belt. It is forceing me to instead go to school for a linemen. If its something you want to do you should keep with it and show them you can do it and that you do it well and they should pay you because you can do it well. And sorry to hear they are brining another guy on, usaly not a good sign

A few years ago I got offered another job for about £3K p/a more- the Department Head gave me a retention offer which I stupidly took. Others found out (not off me) about it and got the right hump. For the next two years I was the anti-christ. Work aint meant to be enjoyable I know, that's why you get money for it, but to be hated by everyone was difficult. I left two years later and got a better job anyway.

I now figure that a retention offer is an insult- if they think you're worth that much then they should have given you it before you got offered another job.

Anyway, when I left the quality of their product dropped off so much that pretty soom the orders were drying up- all reworks and no new jobs hah!

Millbastard if it makes you feel any better I make $12 where I work(tool and die shop) and I don,t mind because my situation is different than yours. For one I have a free run of the shop, can do my projects there anytime as long as I get what they want done. I work nites alone and love it. I can run every machine now and still learning the cnc side of it. I also have my own glass business in the daytime so what they pay doesn,t bother me becuz I like it there and its like having my own machine shop. Your situation is that you are young, if you look at the guys who are making more money most likely they are older and more experienced. Just be patient keep learning, always show up on time and be dedicated. The whole economy is slowing down so jobs will be getting scarcer if not already. Companies have to keep cost down because of our biggest overseas competitor China. My advice to you is keep your job and find additional ways of making money. Buy and resell stuff is about the simplest way to make money on the side, ya just got to choose the right stuff. Hang in there kiddo !!

no, like i said before i know and understand that i dont have all of the knowledge that i could have and i know that there is so much more to learn but when i do setups for a man twice my age, with 20+ supposed years of experience and i have to show him which way to jog the handle to 'go bigger' and he gets more in a day of OT than i make all week, it kinda gets me irritated, i feel the reason im not getting anything for the work i do is because of my age and 'lack of years behind a machine'.

Today for instance, i had to completely scrap a program for a prototype part, the engineers excuse was he just 'threw it together real quick' his print didnt match his program, all of his z depths were off by a .890 x0. y0. seemed to be numbers he just pulled out of a hat, and he 'wasnt sure if it would be right because its been so long since he has written a program for a rotary...
once i finally got all of the correct points/depths/tol. i wrote the program from the haas console, and it turned out beautiful, i know this may not seem like much to most of you on this site, but to me it was a huge step forward.
Did i get the any recognition for any of this? Nah, he yanked the part from me and ran to one of the owners to 'prove that it could work', its ok though, i saved my file seperate from his so when it is time to step into the bosses office, i can have one more point to show.

ohh well another day, tomorrow starts something possibly new, im still looking into the horizon to see if i can maybe find something else to further my experience if this doesnt pan out so we shall see.

-millbastard

you will have to deside wich is more important getting the skills or making the money.
If you realy want to learn what they are teaching (by virtue of the fact that they empoly you)then continue with what you are doing.
If you only are in it for the money then then you would be better off taking the button pusher job at less stress (assuming they will continue to pay you the same)
It sounds like thats all it takes is to show up every day for several years and you would be right up there anyway.
Every shop needs someone like you, someone who will do the work you do. Not everyone will, some are content to show up every day and take what is handed to them. More power to those guys... I can't live like that myself. I have to be involved with what I'm doing or I get bored, frustrated, itchy feet... Notice I said "involved " not "in controle"
I work for the guy who signs my paycheck, and I get paid the same wether I'm sweeping the floors or progaming or quoting jobs or participating in interveiwing a potential new hire.
I'm looking at the other side of 40, I got a late start with a wife and kids, and I don't want to depress you with my own personal sob story but, let me just say there is somthing to be said for the security of staying in one place for more than a couple of years and then moving on when you feel you have "gotten all you can from this place"
Something else you might consider and, I encounter this more and more as I try to move into a higher paying job or a different shop altogether, I look like a preditor. Take one look at my resume and it says "this guy is going to open his own shop and be a serious competitor and if I hire him he will know my business too."
My shop master/owner from were I took my apprenticeship took me aside when I was about half way through and told me that my goal should be every year to get either $.50 or $1.00 raise every year untll I'm toped out and then move on to a place that will pay more.
He said "a doller a year is good and .50 tells you that you do OK but could improve" he always said anything less then .50 and it's time to start looking either because you are unhappy and it shows in your work or the company is too cheap to pay you what you are worth.
I thought that guy walked on water and at 21 I was the 2nd shift forman already. As I began to have more of my own ideas and consulted with him less and less on how a job should be run he finely decided I new enough and told me one day "you have sucked enough from me and I don't want to make another competitor" he was giving me permission to look someware else with no hard feelings.
What am I saying? 'duno... it's your life kid, only you can live it.
By the way, if any forman would have talked to me the way that guy did to you, I would have said "have 'atter" and walked out.
Apparently, Starbums is hireing so...

well, since i havent been online in a couple days ill fill everyone in...

The new guy that i was worried about replacing...wasnt coming in to replace me after all, he was a mold maker from a shop in indiana, came to florida for family, definatly knew his sh!t but knew nothing in G code, i helped him over his first 3 days, learning code, and general haas stuff, he seemed like a really good guy, he showed me a couple tricks i didnt know, then *POOF* he disappeared, apparently he recieved a phone call from his last shop and they offered him a substancial amount of money to move back, i cant say that i blame him, i was actually kinda sad when i found out he wasnt coming back because i looked at the situation as another great opportunity to learn all that i could and notch another slash into my proverbial bedpost...

ohh well, maybe another chance another time, we shall see

-millbastard