Hoss ATC Project [Archive] - CNCzone.com-The Largest Machinist Community on the net!

hoss2006

09-24-2007, 03:10 PM

Hey Red,
I read somewhere that 600 lbs is enough force to hold a tool in an R8 collet.
So far I've found these cheap Bimba's (http://www.surpluscenter.com/item.asp?UID=2007092413555621&item=4-1762-A&catname=air) at Surplus Center that put out 440 lbs.
With leverage, it should work just fine. At only $3.95, it's worth experimenting with.
Probably get a few just to have them.
The cam and lever only needs to move the collet about 1/8 inch I figure.
Later Hoss
http://www.hossmachine.com

RedDog22

09-24-2007, 03:53 PM

Awesome. Thanks for the info.

(removed post because I'm stupid)

hoss2006

09-25-2007, 03:18 PM

Found these spring washers at MSC Direct (http://www1.mscdirect.com/CGI/NNSRIT?PMPXNO=2244800&PMT4NO=0)that look very similar
to what the LMS power drawbar uses.
I think 3 pairs would give plenty of force to hold the R8 tools.
6 washers = almost .100 deflection and 1044 lbs used like this ()()()
Might even be able to use the stock X2 drawbar instead of making a custom one.
Have to give it a try.
Hoss

RedDog22

09-25-2007, 03:59 PM

Hoss if you stack the springs in a series. You will not get the load you mention. You'll only get the load of a single washer but the deflection of all 6.

Parallel Stack - (((((((( - Force is multiplied by the number of washers while deflection remains constant to one washer.

Series Stack - )()()()( - Force is constant to one washer while deflection is multiplied by the number of total washers

Series and parallel - ))(())(( - Force is multiplied by how many washers are in a parallel group. Deflection is multiplied by how many total groups there are.

Hope this helps you out. Should be a good footing on the ways to use them.

RedDog22

09-25-2007, 04:44 PM

Any chance you can tell me how much room you have to work with? I could try and find a good washer and how to stack them.

You'll need to be able to preload them to 600 pounds and still have the .1" of total deflection left to get the tool out. Guess that explains why they needed the 1000psi to get the tool out. Since you'll have to overcome the 600 preloaded pounds to get that final deflection.

hoss2006

09-25-2007, 06:27 PM

Way to go Red, make me have to think :)
After eyeing the LMS PDB a little closer, I see they do stack 6 washers in series.
Did some research on the Belleville (http://www.bellevillesprings.com/belleville-washers.html) Spring Washer (http://www.bellevillesprings.com/stacking.html).
If you want to get out the slide rule check here (http://www.engineersedge.com/belleville_spring.htm).
The deflection I think I'll need is about 1/8 inch.
One turn of the drawbar to tighten the collet (per LMS instructions) = .050.
That leaves .075 to release the tool.
MSC Direct has these spring washers (http://www1.mscdirect.com/CGI/NNSRIT?PMPXNO=2244883&PMT4NO=0) that will give 936 lbs of force (1674 lbs flat) and .132 total deflection
for (6) 1.750 OD washers stacked in series like the LMS. I think. ()()()
A bit pricier than the 1.0 OD ones.
I'll have to peek at the Matsura at work, Dave said it uses spring washers to retain the tools but 60,000 lbs worth.

RedDog22

09-25-2007, 08:45 PM

I didn't do the math or anything. But as long as the .050" of pretensioning is enough to load the washers to 600 pounds of force, you're fine.

Have you given McMasterCarr any thought on the washers? Found these specs...
Minimum Inside Diameter .630"
Maximum Outside Diameter 1.250"
Thickness .089"
Overall Height .111"
Load 979 lbs.
Deflection at Load .011"
Flat Load 1,914 lbs.

Also, don't forget. You're not limited to 6 washers like what LMS is using. You can use 4, 10, 50 if you really wanted. And you don't need to have .050 to load 600lbs either. Maybe you need to turn your drawbar nut 2 turns in before its loaded. Just as long as its loaded and still has enough deflection left to drop your tool holder from the collet.

ataxy

09-25-2007, 09:15 PM

ah i am sure alot of people where waiting for this one and i am one of them, cant wait to see how it will turn out hoss

hoss2006

09-26-2007, 05:34 PM

Ok, think I'll order these Belleville washers from MSC (http://www1.mscdirect.com/CGI/NNSRIT?PMPXNO=2244918&PMT4NO=0) (I already have an account).
They are metric but I get the most for my buck.
ID=12.2 mm (.480 in) just the right size to fit the drawbar.
Load=2910 N (654 lbs)
Deflection=.41 mm (.016 in)
A pack of 10 is only $6
Gives me plenty to experiment with.
I figure stacked in series ()()() should give 654 lbs with .096 in total deflection.
or
stacked series/parallel (())(())(()) should give 1308 lbs with .096 deflection.
or
()()()()=654 lbs, .128 deflection
should be able to get one of these scenarios to do the job, Eh Red?
Hoss

RedDog22

09-26-2007, 06:31 PM

I forgot to ask. You said you think it will take.125" of travel to loosen the the collet enough? Or that only a guess? If it does truly need that. You'll need to calculate what it will take to preload the washers to 600 pounds. And then still have another .125 of deflection left.

654 pounds wont be enough. Because you'll need to have them basically compressed all the way(to reach the 600). You wont be left with any spare room to loosen the collet.

But both of things go with how much space do you truly need to get the tool holder out? And how much minimum force do you truly need to hold your tool in place? Until you know its all guess work. But that is the great thing about using Belleville washers in a spring stack. You can flop them around, add more, use stronger ones. All to get you where you need to be.

hoss2006

09-26-2007, 06:49 PM

I figured (guess) .125 for load on the washers and enough left to release.
May only need .010 or so to release :confused:
We'll see, let the experimenting begin.
Hoss

RedDog22

09-26-2007, 06:59 PM

Awesome. I cant wait to hear your results. One last thing. Normally when you loosen the drawbar you have to give it a wrap to get the collet to let go of the tool holder. Any ideas on how to get around that? Or do you think it wont even show itself?

hoss2006

09-26-2007, 07:22 PM

RedDog22

09-26-2007, 07:37 PM

After reading your answer I cant believe I even asked it. lol Thanks for answering. I'm not sure why I was thinking only the spring stack was being pushed on...

RedDog22

09-26-2007, 08:42 PM

Hey Hoss. Just wondering. Are you doing this up in any cad program?

M100

09-27-2007, 11:06 AM

When you loosen the drawbar by hand, it's free to move up away from the collet
because there's nothing to stop it. So then you have to tap it to release the collet.
With the cam and lever being depressed by the air cylinder against the top of the drawbar, the only way it can move is down against the spring washers.
It pushes the drawbar and collet together, releasing the tool. Voila
Hoss

I can't visualize what you're saying. Due to it being a regular operation I can see how the drawbar extends upwards when loosened by hand and the tapping of it to release the collet from the taper but the rest of it puzzles me.

Any chance of a pointer to somewhere online with a cutaway drawing or a sequence of operations showing how the springs are compressed (when they appear to be completely internal to the spindle bore) and how the drawbar is tightened?

digits

09-27-2007, 11:39 AM

I can't visualize what you're saying. Due to it being a regular operation I can see how the drawbar extends upwards when loosened by hand and the tapping of it to release the collet from the taper but the rest of it puzzles me.

Any chance of a pointer to somewhere online with a cutaway drawing or a sequence of operations showing how the springs are compressed (when they appear to be completely internal to the spindle bore) and how the drawbar is tightened?

If I understand it correctly, the springs are between what would be the 'nut' on a manual drawbar and (the top of) the spindle. When the drawbar is screwed into the collet, this preloads the springs, which in turn pull the drawbar upwards, securing the collet against the inside of the taper.

The drawbar is then released by pushing down on the nut, not unscrewing it.

hoss2006

09-27-2007, 01:31 PM

You got it Digits,
If you look at the Z-bot pdf (http://www.littlemachineshop.com/Instructions/2936PowerDrawbar.pdf) from Little machine Shop, you can see how it works.

hoss2006

09-27-2007, 04:22 PM

Parts to make the power drawbar are ordered.
The project is off and running.
$50 for the air cylinder,spring washers,solenoid valve and relay.
$18 for shipping from 2 sources though.
I'll make the rest of the parts.
I'll give a complete breakdown when it's all together and i know what works.
crap, forgot to get a couple of hardened flat washers for the springs to rub against.
I'll make them too now I guess.
Hoss

hoss2006

09-28-2007, 03:31 PM

Got the spring washers already from MSC Direct, less than 24 hours. :cheers:
I'll figure out how many are needed and what stacking arrangement works this weekend.
Ordered the Speed control board (http://www.cnc4pc.com/Store/osc/product_info.php?cPath=25&products_id=58) from Cnc4pc. It will let Mach 3 turn the spindle on/off via g-code (from what i've read).
Now I can get all the electronics done at the same time;
limit switches, spindle control and drawbar control.
Only up to $88 so far.
Don't figure this will cost anymore than $150 for everything including stock.
We will see.
Hoss

tpworks

09-30-2007, 09:19 PM

Removed

Bob Adams

10-03-2007, 12:57 PM

Hey Hoss, good going. Where did you buy the air valve? Is it Electric?

hoss2006

10-03-2007, 04:03 PM

Hey Bob,
I just got the air valve a little while ago from UPS.
It's 110 VAC that I'll control with a solid state relay.
That's the plan anyway.
Got the Bimba air cylinder too.
they claim it puts out 440 lbs of force but if you do the math,
a 1.5 in dia. bore at 110 PSI = 194 lbs
This will work if i use a 6:1 ratio on the cam lever= 1164 lbs.
Should be plenty enough to release the drawbar.
Have a set of small tool holders done.
they hold up to .500 shafts (endmills)
Will make another larger diameter set to hold up to .750 endmills and drill chucks.
Completely modifying the electronics this weekend or so to house everything
in my old pc case. will get the limit switches, drawbar control, spindle control
and X2 electronics all together and wired up to test.
Onward.
http://www.hossmachine.com

ataxy

10-03-2007, 04:23 PM

whats the runout on your holder

hoss2006

10-03-2007, 04:33 PM

ataxy

10-03-2007, 04:57 PM

wow 0.0000 is in fact pretty good

digits

10-03-2007, 06:05 PM

.0000
My test indicator can't measure anything smaller.
showed no deflection.
before i drilled and tapped for the set screws,
the endmill acted like a shock absorber from the air that couldn't escape
and wouldn't go all the way in.
good enough for who it's for :)

Nice looking tool holders Hoss - did you cut them on your lathe on your mill, or do you have a 'real' lathe as well?

Also, do you need to add some sort of groove in the flanges for an ATC, or will it just locate the tool holders via the flange?

hoss2006

10-03-2007, 07:47 PM

Used my real lathe to make the holders.
The mill is in pieces right now.
Phase 1 will be a simple 7 tool rack, probably for (3) large and (4) small holders.
Figure that will be the easiest for the DIYer, Should still fit the stock X2 table.
Those with more than 4 inches Y travel could add on from there.
Be more programming for the Macro for Mach 3 than one similar to the LMS ATC
that moves to the same position each tool change.
Still have to get into figuring that out.
Phase 2 will be an articulating tool rack, probably an 8-10 tool.
Phase 3 will be a Scarlett Johanson robot to change my tool(s). :D
Hoss

ataxy

10-03-2007, 08:03 PM

Phase 3 will be a Scarlett Johanson robot to change my tool(s). :D
Hoss

see thats the part i am interested in :D

Willyb

10-03-2007, 11:27 PM

Hi Hoss

Sounds like a good looking project. Always wanted to build a ATC and someday I will. Interested in watching your progress. Keep up the good work.

Willy

nine 16

10-05-2007, 11:25 AM

Hoss2006,

You are an inovative machinist to be sure!

Having just read this thread I do not recall seeing Z repeatability specifically addressed. If I'm picturing this right, an upward-biased spring-loaded drawbar will be in threaded connection to an R8 collet. When said drawbar is forced downward the R8 will disengage from the spindles non-locking taper and release its grip on the tool holder.

The tool holder itself will rely on it's flange contacting the botton of the R8 for Z control. The R8, if I recall, has a longitudinal indexing slot, so it cannot rotate.

Is there a need to positively restrain the drawbar from rotating? Is it assumed the springs will accomplish this? If the the drawbar does rotate a bit over time, might it not effect spring tension and might not the Z drift also? I understand that uniformity of tool holder shank diameter is important, but is that alone sufficient to deliver repeatable non-drifting Z?

Thanks, later
-Mark

hoss2006

10-05-2007, 12:19 PM

Hey Nine,
With 600 lbs or more of spring pressure exerted on the drawbar constantly,
I don't think loosening will be much of an issue, but time will tell.
When it's at tool change, the spindle will be stopped (i hope) and the pin should keep the collet from being able to rotate.
No matter how much pressure is exerted, the collet isn't going to any higher than the point it clamps ahold of the tool.
The spring washers will wear out as time goes and need tightened or replaced.
I'll be leaving enough room to access the drawbar manually
since I still want to be able to use my other R8 tooling for other jobs.
I have another cool project in the works too, but can't test it till the mill's back up and running.
stay tuned.
Hoss
http://www.hossmachine.com
Note: the server was down for a couple days, they cost me money from the
missed clicks on the google ads.
One more time and i'll be going to GoDaddy.

nine 16

10-05-2007, 01:52 PM

Hoss2006,

Yep. Restraining the drawbar from rotating should not be necessary. Even if it does rotate over time somehow contributing to Z drift, occasional Z rezeroing will make it moot. As long as the tool holder shanks are 'equal' in diameter the R8 will be prevented from collapsing more, or less, and disturbing Z too much. It is an X2 after all; mods such as your can easily be of equal or greater tolerance than many of the stock head and spindle components anyway.

Keep it up.
-Mark

Bob Adams

10-05-2007, 01:56 PM

Your webpage is still down can't access it.

hoss2006

10-05-2007, 02:01 PM

bob,
should be ok now, just checked again.
they posted a backup from last month, i had to re update it for today.
try hitting reload if you use firefox.
hoss
http://www.hossmachine.com

hoss2006

10-05-2007, 02:05 PM

Hey mark,
you're right, I'll bet my quality assurance department is a little more picky
than the ones in china.:)

Bob Adams

10-05-2007, 02:15 PM

Hey Hoss, no go on your webpage. What happened to your Yahoo group?

pastera

10-05-2007, 02:33 PM

Hoss

For Z repeatability take a look at the Tormach tool holders - I made a few knock-offs for my X1 and the Z is repeatable of a range of drawbar tensions.

Aaron

hoss2006

10-05-2007, 04:08 PM

Tormachs would be nice but :eek: $$
My knockoffs are all within .001 inch of each other and nearly free.
besides, like the CNC guy at work says, when he sets up a job, he sets each tool that will be used to the part being machined. Different sized holders will require different offsets.
if I need to have several tools exactly the same distance to the end of the cutting edge, i'll use a height gage and ground tool set like LMS sells with their Tormach kit (http://www.littlemachineshop.com/products/product_view.php?ProductID=2440&category=209730719).
ooh, need to get making that ground tool set too.

snowshovelbmx

10-05-2007, 07:58 PM

Those toolholders look really nice! I will have to make a couple for myself one day. You might consider putting an undercut on the tool holder though, so that the holder does not sit against the collet but rather it is supported by the spindle itself. This is how the tormach system works and I think it contributes greatly to the repeatability and rigidness of the system.

chris.

hoss2006

10-05-2007, 08:19 PM

I see what you mean Chris.
i.e. this tormach tool holder (http://www.littlemachineshop.com/products/product_view.php?ProductID=2698&category=209730719)
I made mine 1.250 O.D. though, have to check to see if it will still mate with the spindle.
Wanted to make them small enough to fit (4) in a tool rack on a stock X2 table.
Back to the drawing board?

pzzamakr1980

10-06-2007, 01:30 AM

Hey hoss, I've been using the tormach system for months now and have to say it is fantastic. If you would like a suggestion, get the collet and a few blanks and make your own stuff. The collet is cheap and the blanks are really cheap and you can make anything out of em. I needed a jt3 or 4 mount for the big drill chucks and I used a blank to make one and it came out great. I also used the blanks to make some endmill holders. The little lip which makes the tormach special and nice to use for toolsetting was really difficult for me to make nicely and rather than go to the trouble of trying to make it as precise as it should be, I just bought the blanks and its done for you as well as the shank to go in the collet.

pzzamakr1980

10-06-2007, 01:38 AM

I've got a few more thoughts too. What makes the tormach starter sets so expensive are the er-20 collet holders. I use them because the 1/4 collets that I use, especially now the carbide ones I just bought, dont seem to like end-mill holders. I also use them because they are very small, very little Z lost, and have a excellent runout which is perfect when I use really tiny drills and soon when I use small endmills. But if you're not using collet holders than the endmill holders and the drill chuck adaptors are pretty cheap. You can get the drill chucks from 800watt for the keyless ones in all size ranges all for less than 20 bucks and then put the adaptors in for the tormach system. All the 800watt ones can be sold to you unassembled so you dont have to remove the drill shank. Also, if you really like the er-20 collet holders, 800watt has a whole set of em, and they are pretty nice, for like 60 bucks. I realize that I seem to be pimping 800watt a lot but he sells some pretty decent stuff for cheap. And being a college student who's trying to start a small business doing this stuff, cheap is sometimes all I can do.

hoss2006

10-06-2007, 04:24 AM

I've dealt with 800watt before and it wasn't good.
I was one of the number of people that did not get good service for some reason.
I had to get Paypal arbitration involved to get him to finally ship my order, months later.
Too bad, he does have some good deals.
I'll look around Ebay, I'm sure others have just as good a deal,
Thanks Hoss

hoss2006

10-06-2007, 06:37 AM

Chris got me thinking, I'll design this to use tormach tooling from now on.
If someone wants to use them, they can, or they can make their own.
I'll changed my prints for the tool holders to be 1.5 O.D. with the same recess for the R8 collet.
This will limit the # of tools to 3 per row for a stock X2.(6) total (Phase 1).
that should be plenty to handle a job.
I can still use my tool holders, tormach makes a conversion kit (http://www.littlemachineshop.com/products/product_view.php?ProductID=3099&category=209730719) for other tools. Read the Datasheet. (http://www.littlemachineshop.com/Instructions/DS30675_TTSToolConvKit.pdf)
This will solve a couple of problems that were looming too.
Looks like I'll still need to modify a 3/4 collet like tormach recommends (http://www.tormach.com/document_library/TTS%20operation%20manual%20Rev-C.pdf).
or buy one (http://www.littlemachineshop.com/products/product_view.php?ProductID=2454&category=209730719).

Bob Adams

10-06-2007, 11:15 AM

Here's Handy Free program (http://www.cad2gcode.com/cncprojects/)to calculate cylinder force at 0 to 90 degrees.

hoss2006

10-06-2007, 12:51 PM

Too Cool,:wave:

You are the Man Bob! :cheers:
Thanks, Hoss

Bob Adams

10-07-2007, 01:44 PM

Here's my preplan for my machine please add any input.

hoss2006

10-09-2007, 08:07 AM

Hey Bob,
I like the lever design, leaves plenty of access to the drawbar for manual removal.
I think though that with 600lbs or more acting on the the drawbar,
it may want to cause the mounting plate to flex back.
maybe add a second on the left side of the head and a cross brace between them. That's the way i'm going. Just my 2 cents.

I have all the electronics in one enclosure now, will keep everything neat and tidy.
Got the Spindle motor to turn on/off using M3/M5 in Mach 3 yesterday with the Cnc4PC board (http://www.cnc4pc.com/Store/osc/product_info.php?cPath=25&products_id=58).
Fought with it all day Sunday thinking it was a hardware/wiring problem, turns out it was in the many Mach 3 settings.
Tried something different than what was spelled out in the basic instructions, and it worked. (more later)
Works pretty cool now. made a little program to tell it to turn the spindle on (M3) at S4200(my max RPM),
move the X 10.0, then turn the spindle off (M5)
then repeat using a (S)peed of 2500.
It spun slower the 2nd time.:wee:
Now to add a switch so that I can choose between running the Spindle manually like before or by Mach 3.
Hoss
http://www.hossmachine.com

Bob Adams

10-09-2007, 10:49 AM

I Like your 2 cents. What sensor are you using for the RPM? When can we see something?

hoss2006

10-09-2007, 11:03 AM

No optical sensor set up yet, I tested RPM's with my tach (http://www.hossmachine.com/Videos6.html#videos33&34).
You tell Mach 3 your max RPM per pulley (config>spindle pulleys)
Choose the one you are running at the time, and the C6 board adjusts the voltage based on the Speed chosen in the program (or set in the Spindle box on the main page) to vary the RPM.
Don't know how accurate it all is yet, but will.
I make a little video today perhaps.
Hoss

Rabies

10-09-2007, 12:14 PM

Hi all, just noticed this thread, and I have a couple of questions to raise about the automatic drawbar design (both your design and the Z-bot, since they appear to work the same way):

Firstly, if the piston, through the cam, is applying 1000lbs force to the top of the drawbar, doesn't that load get transferred to the spindle bearings at the same time? The Z-bot certainly seems this way, since the cylinder is bolted to the head. It would be kinder to the bearings to arrange the mechanism to push the drawbar out whilst holding the spindle.

And secondly, is it safe to assume that if a rigid drawbar is holding a tool in with a force of 600lbs, then springs to generate the same force will be adequate? Because with a rigid drawbar, if you manage to pull the tool even a little way out then the force required to pull any further will increase very rapidly (thousands of pounds within a few thou, most likely.) With springs, loaded to their recommended deflection at 600lbs, the force required the further the tool is pulled out will only increase a couple of hundred pounds until the washers are completely compressed. So, with a rigid drawbar it may take a few thousand pounds pull on the tool to loosen the collet enough to release the tool; but with the springs it may only need 900lbs, even for an instant, to pull the collet easily far enough out of the taper to release the toolholder.

I have no idea if this is actually the case, but it's what my intuition tells me.

hoss2006

10-09-2007, 01:05 PM

I can see your point about stress on the bearings.
May prove to be an issue down the road but a similar force is required to
release the drawbar manually with a mallet.
Depending on how hard you usually wack it, the initial force may be worse than the power drawbar.
maybe a modified extended spindle might be necessary, purpose made for a power drawbar, time will tell.
I assume the company selling the power drawbar for $100's did some R&D on this,
but you know what they say when you ass-u-me.
Hoss

hoss2006

10-09-2007, 04:49 PM

snowshovelbmx

10-09-2007, 08:20 PM

oh really? I'd like to hear more about that as you find out, I was going to order the board for when my mill is up and running again.

thanks,
chris.

hoss2006

10-10-2007, 11:00 AM

i think it's a computer problem, not the cnc4pc board.
i'm bringing up the mills computer to hook everything to instead of an old backup p.c.
have the feeling the problem is in the computers old parallel port.
it's not giving the c6 board enough "juice".
test it today.

snowshovelbmx

10-10-2007, 11:34 AM

oh ok thanks for the update, good luck!
chris

hoss2006

10-10-2007, 03:55 PM

well that didn't help.
the newer computer apparently has the same problem as most laptops,
not enough juice for the parallel port.
ordering the recommended breakout board (http://www.cnc4pc.com/Store/osc/product_info.php?cPath=33&products_id=45) from Cnc4pc when they're back in stock.
it's supposed to boost the signal so that should do the trick.
I added a second parallel port to give me some extra outputs that I'll connect the breakout board to.
Use the original for just the Xylotex and limit switches.
I'll get the relays setup for the drawbar and flood coolant pump on the new breakout board along with the Spindle board.

skullworks

10-12-2007, 02:45 PM

( Tagged )

Keep up the good work.

ataxy

10-12-2007, 07:16 PM

cant wait to see the finished work

Bob Adams

10-13-2007, 02:59 PM

This will give you something to look at while Hoss is waiting for parts.
I took Hoss's wisdom and came up with this support bracing and made a pictorial for air circuit (http://www.cad2gcode.com/cncprojects/).
New DXF.:cheers:

Oldmanandhistoy

10-13-2007, 06:09 PM

tpworks

10-13-2007, 08:10 PM

Just a note for you guys,
I prefer dual port cards for Mach it keeps the data rate equal. Just a thought.

http://www.tigerdirect.com/applications/searchtools/item-details.asp?EdpNo=1003992&Sku=C250-3708&SRCCODE=PWATCH&CMP=OTC-PWATCH

hoss2006

10-13-2007, 10:16 PM

This is my power drawbar layout so far.
Have to draw up and dimension the individual parts tomorrow.
Plan to use quick release hitch pins to make replacing the belt easier.
Uses a modified Clevis from McMaster-Carr.
I'll make a color coded drawing later that shows what's aluminum, steel and bronze.
Later Hoss
http://www.hossmachine.com

hoss2006

10-14-2007, 04:50 PM

My Prints are done, now to make some parts.
Once the mill is back up and running that is.
Should get the electronics finished up this week.
Pretty pointless to build anything yet if the software can't control
the spindle and drawbar. First things first.
Then on to see if what's on paper works like it should.
May need a tweak here or there.
Here's a color drawing of the drawbar layout.
Hoss

Willyb

10-14-2007, 05:49 PM

Hi Hoss

Looks good. What size cylinder are you planning to use? One good thing with this design is you can easily change up to a larger diameter cylinder if required?

Willy

hoss2006

10-14-2007, 06:08 PM

Hey Willy,
I have a 1.5 in. Bimba that should put out 194 lbs at 110 PSI.
With the lever, will impart 1164 lbs. on the drawbar.
It only has to move about .010 - .020 to release tests showed.
Hoss

Bob Adams

10-14-2007, 08:59 PM

I'm going with Hoss's plan. Keep on trucking Hoss!:cheers: :cheers:

Willyb

10-14-2007, 10:19 PM

Hi Hoss

That should work out just fine. Good luck with your project and have fun.

Willy

hoss2006

10-16-2007, 06:28 PM

It's alive!:banana:
The C10 Breakout Board (http://www.cnc4pc.com/Store/osc/product_info.php?cPath=33&products_id=45) from Cnc4pc fixed the second parallel ports low voltage problem.
It now runs the C6 Spindle Control Board (http://www.cnc4pc.com/Store/osc/product_info.php?cPath=25&products_id=58) at 5 vdc that it needs.
Now I have plenty of pins to hook up limit/home switches and relays for the power drawbar and coolant pump, plus whatever?
The C6 board puts out a max of 10 vdc to run the mills spindles circuit.
I have a replacement circuit board (http://www.hossmachine.com/projects_3.html#circuit%20board) from a treadmill that uses 12 vdc so I don't get the max RPM when running under PC control.
I figure I'll still get 3700 RPM max. I'll live with it.
Arturo recommends a max of 7 vdc for the Sieg x3 circuit, so I image you'd get the full RPM's from the C6 board.
I have a Spindle Control video (http://www.hossmachine.com/Videos6.html#videos35&36) that shows a preview of how it all works with some Mach 3 setup.
P.S. I made some flanges like these (http://www.littlemachineshop.com/products/product_view.php?ProductID=3099&category=209730719) to convert the tool holders I made to be similar to Tormachs.
Hoss

ataxy

10-16-2007, 08:38 PM

i need a lathe love those tool holder you made hoss, i dont remember whats the size of the shank

hoss2006

10-17-2007, 11:30 AM

Here ya go, the new version of the tool holders.
Hoss

Oldmanandhistoy

10-17-2007, 11:41 AM

Here ya go, the new version of the tool holders.
Hoss

Hi,

Do these tool holders need to be hardened?

John

hoss2006

10-17-2007, 11:58 AM

digits

10-17-2007, 04:56 PM

Tormachs are at the flange that mates with the spindle but I don't plan on hardening mine, could warp the flange requiring grinding to true it back up(or use ceramic inserts on the lathe)
I use O-1 drill rod steel (http://www1.mscdirect.com/CGI/NNSRIT?PMPXNO=1749052&PMT4NO=31118870) so they are pretty tough on their own.(could be hardened later)
Cold rolled steel would be probably be too soft to hold up well.
Still it will be a fairly gentle procedure to change the tools.
user preference.
Hoss

Looking good Hoss, but one thought, don't you need a groove in those flanges to allow the tool changer to firmly grip the tool holders? I think the Z-bot/LMS tool changer adds them to Tormach tool holders, and most of the BT/ISO/CAT tool holders I've seen are also grooved...

One other question - how feasible do you think it would be to use a screw & stepper to force the lever down onto the drawbar rather than using an air-cylinder? I'd quite like a silent all-electric solution if possible...

Cheers.

Oldmanandhistoy

10-17-2007, 05:12 PM

One other question - how feasible do you think it would be to use a screw & stepper to force the lever down onto the drawbar rather than using an air-cylinder? I'd quite like a silent all-electric solution if possible...

I was wondering the same thing but have had no time to look into it.

John

Thazul

10-17-2007, 06:44 PM

Hey Hoss.

I've been lurking your threads for some time, Love your work and videos. I visit your website frequently and click my way around. ;)

I am attempting your cnc conversion as we speak, just ordered the bearings for the Y and Z.

Just thought I'd let you know that mcmaster has the drill rod you used for those tool holders for about $18 less per 3' piece.

I saved about $20 on the bearings there as well.

Keep up the good work, Can't wait to see the auto changer in action.

Best Regards,

Andy

hoss2006

10-17-2007, 07:19 PM

Looking good Hoss, but one thought, don't you need a groove in those flanges to allow the tool changer to firmly grip the tool holders? I think the Z-bot/LMS tool changer adds them to Tormach tool holders, and most of the BT/ISO/CAT tool holders I've seen are also grooved...

One other question - how feasible do you think it would be to use a screw & stepper to force the lever down onto the drawbar rather than using an air-cylinder? I'd quite like a silent all-electric solution if possible...

Cheers.

When I get to Phase 2 with an articulating tool changer like the LMS, I'll be using a simpler tool rack than they use.
Right now in Phase 1, I'm simply making a stationary tool rack (plate with holes in it)
that the tools will be lowered into. No groove necessary.
The 1.5 OD will stop the tool falling through the 1.25 dia. holes in the rack.
Will use a similar setup in Phase 2 except that the rack will be round and rotate. The less complications the better.

About the Stepper/ screw releasing the drawbar,
In theory it could work with enough torque to force the lever down, but it would be slow.
There are electric solenoid actuators (http://www.surpluscenter.com/item.asp?UID=2007101717575815&item=5-1577-2&catname=electric) that I looked into first to release the drawbar, but they are much larger and more expensive than an air cylinder.
There are also electric linear actuators that can exert more than enough force
without the need for a lever, but they are pretty slow too.
This example from Surplus Center (http://www.surpluscenter.com/item.asp?UID=2007101717575815&item=5-1463&catname=electric) exerts 900 lbs, but takes 15 seconds to move 1.65 inches.
Only needs to move a fraction of that to release but doesn't have limit switches built in.
As usual I went for the cheapest way.
Also here's a drawing showing how the tool holder, collet and spindle interact.
Hoss
http://www.hossmachine.com

digits

10-17-2007, 07:44 PM

Using gravity to do all the work is a fanatsically simple idea - I look forward to hearing how well it works. I'd imagine that with the air-cylinder giving the drawbar a good kick as well as just moving it, inertia in the tool holder will aid ejection :)

hoss2006

10-18-2007, 07:23 AM

Gravity and a little spring loaded friction to give a little tug on the tool holder
to pull it out of the collet.
Besides, I don't want to listen to the tools vibrating in sloppy holes in the rack
when it's milling.
We'll see how much the collet releases when the drawbar is done.
I have a sketch somewhere for the 10 position tool rack I had in mind for phase 2.
It has openings that will allow a long tool bit to pass so I wouldn't have to waste alot
of Z travel to pull a drill bit all the way out of the rack.
just enough to clear the tool holder itself, then move out on the X.
Hoss

digits

10-18-2007, 07:46 AM

I think I understand what you mean. I think you have the advantage that the end of your tool holders and by the extension the tool are always narrower than the body of the tool holder, or your flange. I know tormach make some tool holders where this isn't the case - e.g. when holding big drill chucks, or boring heads, but you can always change those manually. The ER collet holders are also a bit of a pain as the ER-nut moves up and down depending on the diameter of the tool you're clamping.

hoss2006

10-18-2007, 08:09 AM

digits

10-18-2007, 04:53 PM

In the case of drill chucks, I was planning on using 3/8 drill chucks with a toolholder that has a larger 2.250 OD flange.
Same principle just a bigger hole in the rack.
Could still use larger drill bits with the shanks turned to 3/8.
Or they could just as easily be used in the 3/8 toolholder.
There's always more than one way to hold your tool.:)
Hoss

D'oh - how obvious - you don't have to have all the tool rack slots the same!

I have been considering turning down my tools as well - it should be fine for drills and end-mills, but I'd quite like to be able to use a facemill without having to remove my rapid changer and collet. I'm not sure I can get away with turning that all the way down from R8 to 10mm though!

I am really interested to see how well your powered drawbar works - if I can completely avoid manual manipulation of the drawbar, I can design my new machine without the requirement that I must be able to get to the drawbar with relative ease.

Good luck, and please keep the pictures coming!

hoss2006

10-18-2007, 06:52 PM

Made a tutorial video to show how I setup Mach 3 for the Cnc4pc C6 Spindle Board
and C10 Breakout Board on a second parallel port.
If you get one, read the instructions too.
It's 35 Megs, 11 min.
Right Click> Save As to download.
mach3C6setup.wmv (http://www.hossmachine.com/downloads/mach3C6setup.wmv)
Hoss
http://www.hossmachine.com

hoss2006

10-22-2007, 06:43 PM

OK, I have all the electronics and software figured out for the tool change, drawbar
and flood coolant control.
Have Mach 3 all set up as far as I can go for now.
Will have to modify the tool change macro when I get the home switches installed and the tool rack mounted.
Just waiting on a relay for the flood coolant, then I can button everything up
and hook it all up to the mill this weekend.
Time to get the mill making some parts to finish this up.
Here's a video showing the macro and relays (http://www.hossmachine.com/Videos6.html#videos35&36) working.
Hoss
http://www.hossmachine.com

project5k

10-22-2007, 07:55 PM

hoss, your insane, ingenious, and inspiring!! keep up the good work.. hehehehehe

hoss2006

10-25-2007, 05:27 PM

One more preview video, this time showing the power drawbar air cylinder (http://www.hossmachine.com/Videos7.html#videos37&38) in action.
I chose a single acting air cylinder vs. a double acting like the LMS drawbar uses. It's a lot cheaper.
I got this Bimba (http://www.surpluscenter.com/item.asp?UID=2007102516100640&item=4-1762-A) from Surplus Center for $3.95.
The cheapest double acting I found with the same piston diameter cost 10 times more.
I used this 120 VAC 4 WAY 2 POSITION SINGLE SOLENOID VALVE (http://www.surpluscenter.com/item.asp?UID=2007102516100640&item=4-10437)($24.95)
It has exhaust ports that let the air escape when the air cylinder is deactivated,
spring pressure returns the cylinder.
It's enough to get the lever out of the way so the spring washers can do their job and grab the tool.
It also has a manual button on top (red) to extend/retract without electricity.
Enough testing in the lab, it's time to get everything in the shop and put the mill back together.:wee:
Later Hoss
http://www.hossmachine.com

RedDog22

10-25-2007, 05:40 PM

Awesome job, Hoss. Really pulled this together fast. I'm looking forward to seeing it in action once you've assembled everything.

KOS

10-26-2007, 08:35 PM

so been following your thread for a while Hoss...nice I like what you are doing.

So got me thinking I have a small mold clamp that was part of an injection molding machine that I am building...well havent done anything with it for some time, I guess I should say WAS building. But I am very interested to see how well yours works as I may take my cylinder/solenoid etc etc and use it on an ATC like yours for my X3 which is cnc'd with geckos 203Vs etc.

Also I have a couple 7x10 lathes and a grizzly 11x26, so I may sacrifice one of the small lathes and use the head stock for a turning center attachment for the mill like I saw on your site...I did notice though you didnt use it to make your collet holders? any reason why?

Posted a couple pics of my mold clamp with electronics...

hoss2006

10-26-2007, 09:20 PM

CRAP!!!
I had all the electronics and computer hooked back up to the mill,
fired it up and retuned the motors, everything looked good.
Then I noticed the A axis motor sitting there so I thought I'd plug it in and tune it too.
Didn't turn off the dang power to the Xylotex board first.
You guessed it, it popped, I smelled something like fried rat and then nothing.
BONEHEAD!
After some testing, even only 5 volts gets the A axis chip rolling out the smoke.
Checked around on some xylotex forums, I may be able to yank the A axis chip
and still be able to use the X,Y and Z.
Find out tomorrow.
Otherwise it's another $185.
Maybe I'll ask Santa for some Geckos.
KOS so been following your thread for a while Hoss...nice I like what you are doing.

...I did notice though you didnt use it to make your collet holders? any reason why?

KOS, the lathe attachment had been down for a while, I damaged the bearings and was waiting for a replacement.

KOS

10-26-2007, 09:27 PM

ah yeah i remember that sound before well! that was why i went with the G203Vs this time around...sorry to hear that happen...

hoss2006

10-27-2007, 10:58 AM

No crying over spilled electronics, on to things mechanical.
The power drawbar is operational!:banana:
Have it mounted now, still some things to tweak, but it works.
Some good things I found out so far, The bimba had enough force to open the collet,
The collet won't need ground (there is enough recess (.100 inch) in my tool holders to use a standard collet)
Gravity works! The tool holder just falls out when released so I can use a simple tool rack.
Two pairs of spring washers are enough to hold the collet and still have enough deflection to release.
I'll have to modify the prints when all the tweaking is finished before I post them,
don't want to give out any bum info. Won't be too long.
Will have a video up in a little bit, stay tuned.
Hoss
http://www.hossmachine.com

Bob Adams

10-27-2007, 12:54 PM

Sorry to here about your Big blowout, it had to come at the wrong time. I bought this driver KL-4030 and their 495 motor for my 4th Axis great products. I think you bought the same motor?
http://www.kelinginc.net/KLDriver.html
Four of these are a lot cheaper than GecKo's. With 4 drivers if one blowup you still have three.

hoss2006

10-27-2007, 01:11 PM

Hey Bob,
I printed out the specs on that exact same driver from Keling last night.
I'll either be getting 1 or 4, depends on how the Xylotex surgery goes.
Maybe 6, I have some things in the works.
The power drawbar video is up, check it out here (http://www.hossmachine.com/Videos7.html#videos37&38).
Hoss

Bob Adams

10-27-2007, 01:20 PM

Great Job Hoss!!! What PSI can you get away with?

hoss2006

10-27-2007, 01:27 PM

Hey Bob,
I just have it hooked up to my little 15 Gallon shop compressor.
It maxes out at 100 psi but goes down to 70 psi before it kicks back on.
Doesn't take much.
Hoss

Bob Adams

10-27-2007, 01:56 PM

That's good news , my 3 gal compressor goes to 110 and down to 80 psi. Should work great.

KOS

10-27-2007, 08:01 PM

Hey hoss

with all the extra weight on the head stock now are you having any trouble moving the Z without loss of steps?

hoss2006

10-27-2007, 08:48 PM

Total weight is 6 lbs. Bimba and all.(The Z-Bot from LMS weighs 8 lbs.)
The stepper is lifting a total of about 90 lbs with my extended head and counter weight now.
I should get around to adding an air spring or 2 to make it's life a little easier.
I'll add that to the list.
Won't know if the rapid speed changed from 25 IPM (100 IPM going down:)) for the Z till I get my new
drivers next week, the xylotex didn't survive.
I can't set my home switches yet either till I can see how far the motors move each axis to their limit.
Hoss

dang

10-28-2007, 01:22 AM

Hoss,

Are you gonna release a set of plans for ATC conversion after you finish? The work looks great so far!

hoss2006

10-28-2007, 01:30 PM

Hoss,

Are you gonna release a set of plans for ATC conversion after you finish? The work looks great so far!

Sure will.
here's some prints for the power drawbar.
I added changes to clear the belt conversion plate. Stock X2 's won't need the mods.
Plates are aluminum, pins, cam, lever and clevis are steel.
You can buy a clevis from McMaster Carr part # 6498K44.
X3 (or other minimills) owners could make the top plate equal to the width of their head and lengthen the pin and spacers to make it work.
Modify at your own risk.
This is a project in progress so things may change again.
Hoss
http://www.hossmachine.com
Zip contains all the prints

Bob Adams

10-28-2007, 02:06 PM

Hey Hoss, what about the stock draw bar length and the torque for the spring washers?

hoss2006

10-28-2007, 02:22 PM

Hey Hoss, what about the stock draw bar length and the torque for the spring washers?

Hey Bob,
Stock drawbar, 2 pairs of spring washers (http://www1.mscdirect.com/CGI/NNSRIT?PMPXNO=2244918&PMT4NO=0) ()() , finger tighten the drawbar, then 1 turn more.
Hoss

Thazul

10-29-2007, 01:08 AM

Excellent work once again hoss.
Thanks for sharing your creations with all of us here on the zone, really appreciate it.
Can't wait to see this bad boy in action, keep up the good work.

-

Andy

dang

10-29-2007, 11:21 AM

Yeah Hoss,

I gotta say that your sharing this kind of work here, as well as on your site has really made every other X2 owner's life alot easier. I just replaced my blown circuit board and motor from your prints. Big thanks!

hoss2006

10-29-2007, 12:38 PM

Thanks guys, glad to help.
As long as I get some Ads clicked on my site now and again, I'll be happy.
Hoss
http://www.hossmachine.com

S_J_H

10-29-2007, 04:34 PM

Hoss,
Just wanted to say you do a fantastic job with all of your creations! Thanks for sharing all of your work with everybody!
Steve

project5k

10-30-2007, 11:16 AM

hey hoss, nice work as allways, i just have one question, does the drawbar release arm touch the drawbar when the spindle is running? If so, i would think that you would need a bearing in there... if the air cyl. pulls the arm back and up far enough so its not touching the drawbar then this may not be an issue...

just a thought....

hoss2006

10-30-2007, 11:31 AM

There is .050 clearance between the drawbar and cam.
I think I mentioned that in the video.
these pics will explain.
Hoss
FYI, the pins are just long bolts with the threads cut off.
You could leave the threads and use jamb nuts instead of cotter pins.

hoss2006

10-31-2007, 06:57 AM

Note:
If the distance between the cam and drawbar is too great or too close after mounting the enclosure,
it can be adjusted with the clevis or by making a larger or smaller diameter cam.
I like to have more than one way to skin a cat.
Hoss

hoss2006

10-31-2007, 06:15 PM

Made a little video here (http://www.hossmachine.com/Videos7.html#videos39&40) to answer a few questions.
The spindle and bearings are deflected by this type of power drawbar.
Total movement was .0025 inch.
It does return to zero on release each time.
Should be no big deal especially with the rigid tool rack
I'll be using.
The spindle will rest against it when the drawbar is activated so it shouldn't deflect then.
The collet drops about .060 inch at release.
The tool holder is held pretty tight by the springs.
I tried to rotate it with an allen wrench while holding the spindle lock.
All it did was bend the allen till it popped out.
Hoss
http://www.hossmachine.com

Bob Adams

11-01-2007, 02:16 PM

It's Alive thanks to Hoss!!!
I had to make a few changes.
1. I have a Harrison belt kit, the pin comes out the side.
2. The drawbar had to be changed a little, because I didn't have enough threads in the collet. Cut the drawbar back about 5/16 for the spring washers, then tapped a 1/4-20 for a lock washer and allen bolt.
3. I cut a hole and slotted the side plate. Now all I do is take out the two back bolts, to pivot for a belt change.
4. I checked the bearing and collet movement and got the same as Hoss,

snowshovelbmx

11-01-2007, 03:52 PM

Hoss I do belive you have started a very good thing here and also maybe made the guy at z-bot a little sad. As I belive spending 50 bucks or so to make your own is way better than the 500 they want for a power drawbar from LMS. I think I speak for everyone when I say thanks!

chris.

quicksilver02

11-01-2007, 04:34 PM

Thanks a ton for all of the info on thie Hoss! You've caused me to start gathering parts to build something similar for my SX3. :)

Bob - Your mods look good. One question... Is the 1/4-20 socket head bolt just to restore the height of the drawbar that you lost when you cut back the shoulder on it? I suppose you could have moved the cam down closer to the modified drawbar, but you probably already had that part built?

-Nate

JHCHOPPERS

11-01-2007, 05:29 PM

Hoss,

Nice work. I am working on something simulare with an R8 collect on a BP

Can you post your tool changer macro ?

Thanks,
Joel

hoss2006

11-01-2007, 05:32 PM

Nice work there Bob. good solution for the side spindle lock.

Chris,
I don't mean to cost anyone any customers, they have a fine product,
especially the complete tool changer.
But I could never afford it (or bring myself to spend that much)
I know from an email I got that they have sold at least one complete system from my mentioning them here.
I will be making an articulating tool rack later on but nothing as complex as theirs.
My new driver board came today so I can get back to it this weekend.
Have my home switches wired up just need to fine tune the mountings.
If I get the tool rack milled up, I should have it operational maybe Sunday.
Here's a light duty keyless chuck for the tool holders, good Jacobs chucks are on order.
Hoss
http://www.hossmachine.com

hoss2006

11-01-2007, 05:57 PM

Joel,
The genius of Mach 3 created the tool change macro, that stuff is beyond me.
You can watch the tutorial video (tool_change) here (http://www.machsupport.com/Videos/Mach3%20Video%20Selections/Mach3%20Video%20Selections.html).
They have the macro for download on the Yahoo forum here (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/mach1mach2cnc/).
Don't know if I could legally upload it here.
Go to Files > Macros > Toochanger Macros > M6Start.zip
Extract and replace M6Start.m1s to your Mach 3 folder, for example
C:\Mach3\macros\Mach3Mill
M6Start.m1s already exists in the original install but there isn't any code in it.
replace with the new one.
Watch the tutorial.
Hoss

JHCHOPPERS

11-01-2007, 06:01 PM

Bob Adams

11-01-2007, 06:37 PM

Nate, the 1/4-20 was to put back the material lost

Bob Adams

11-01-2007, 06:44 PM

Here's a pictorial for the cylinder hookup.

Micro Rotors

11-02-2007, 02:00 AM

Hoss,

Do you have a parts list for this. GREAT JOB ... I want one!!!!!

Bill

hoss2006

11-02-2007, 08:18 AM

Power Drawbar parts List

7.5 x 6.0 x .250 aluminum plate(2)
6.0 x 3.450 x .375 aluminum plate(for X2)
4.5 x 1.0 x .1875 steel plate(2)
.750 dia. x 5.0 steel rod (cam,spacers,washers)
.5 x 4.5 bolt(main pin)
.375 x 1.75 bolt (2) pins
.5 x.5 x 1.75 steel (clevis or McMaster Carr (http://www.mcmaster.com/) #6498K44)
7/16-20 jamb nut
3/4-16 jamb nut
1/8 cotter pins(3)
1/4-20 x .750 screws(6)
5/16-18 x .750 screws(4)
1.50"X0.75"X0.44" BIMBA (http://www.surpluscenter.com/item.asp?UID=2007102516100640&item=4-1762-A)
120 VAC 4 WAY 2 POSITION SINGLE SOLENOID VALVE (http://www.surpluscenter.com/item.asp?UID=2007102516100640&item=4-10437)\
Spring Washers (http://www1.mscdirect.com/CGI/NNSRIT?PMPXNO=2244918&PMT4NO=0) (4)
1/8-NPT air fittings (3)
1/8-NPT plug fitting
Air line (6ft)
Compressed Air Source (100 PSI)
110 VAC switched source
Sieg X2 or other Minimill

Micro Rotors

11-02-2007, 03:34 PM

Hoss ...

Thanks!

Your the MAN! :cheers:

Bill

hoss2006

11-02-2007, 04:10 PM

Willyb

11-02-2007, 06:39 PM

Hi Hoss

Sorry to hear of your unfortunate accident with your New Xylotex Driver. And I thought stuff like this only happened to me?

I assume that the connection between your Xylotex board and Stepper Motor was broken when the wire got snagged? And that the Stepper Motor was turning at the same time? I don't think it would have mattered what make the Drive was when this happened as I understand that breaking the connection while being powered up is a big no,no.

The reason I say this is because I inquired if it would be ok to use my Mill when I didn't have my Rotary Table connected and was told that this was ok but to never make or break the 4th axis connection when the Mill was powered up.

Again, I am sorry to hear of your missfortune but remember tomorrow is another day. Thanks for the great project.

Keep up the good work.

Willy

Bob Adams

11-03-2007, 03:13 PM

Hi Hoss, I no you sufferd a great loss, but you helped alot of us CNC'ers. So don't let it get to you. Keep up the great work, it will pay off. This is what your input gave me.
Thanks Hoss
Bob A

Willyb

11-04-2007, 12:30 AM

Hi Bob

Great looking Power Drawbar. What size of cylinder did you use?
Are you planning on building a Tool Changer to go with your Power Drawbar or just use it as is? Thanks for the pictures.

Willy

Micro Rotors

11-04-2007, 01:13 AM

UNBELIEVABLE!
Ignoring my better judgment, I decided to give Xylotex another shot
and ordered a 3 Axis board to replace the blown 4 Axis board.
(ordered a KL-4030 from Keling for the 4th Axis)
Had it all hooked up and it worked fine.
Was cycling the axis' through to their limits to set my home switches
when the Z axis cable snagged on the counter weight bracket.
It pulled the wire out of the motor just a little bit and that was enough to make the xylotex pop, smoke and quit working.
It was the same thing all over again.
This one is DEAD too!
Fool me once shame on you, fool me twice shame on me!
needless to say I'm P*ssed.
At myself mostly for being foolish, but also at Xylotex for such ridiculously sensitive equipment.
they've received an email about all this and the fact that i'll no longer recommend their stuff to anyone on here or my website.
Geckodrive (http://www.geckodrive.com/) is the way to go but Keling (http://www.kelinginc.net/KLDriver.html) seems to be a good cheaper alternative
that has Over voltage, heat and short-circuit protection at half the price.
This weekends plans are shot now, guess i'll watch some movies instead.
maybe Blade Runner again.
Later Hoss

Hoss,

You have given so much to the X2 users on this board and I have followed and duplicated some of the stuff you have made on here and your web site so I would like to send you $25.00 tword you next driver purchase. I think others here feel just as I do and would also pony up something to help you with your research we have benifited for no cost.

Do you take paypal?

Thanks for everything you have done so far and I know there is other great things to come and I will also want to make them. Consider it as a subscription fee for your technical "writeup's with plans"!

Bill

hoss2006

11-04-2007, 06:12 AM

Bob Adams

11-04-2007, 11:10 AM

Hi Bob

Great looking Power Drawbar. What size of cylinder did you use?
Are you planning on building a Tool Changer to go with your Power Drawbar or just use it as is? Thanks for the pictures.

Willy
I used the same Cylinder that Hoss used. If you plan on buliding one I would buy 2 or 3 Cylinders for spares, before there gone. I was waiting to see what Hoss comes up with, I don't think I have enough room on my machine for a tool changer? I have to buy some Tooling from Tomach yet. I want a boring head holder and some drill chucks holders. I also bought a C6 board and plan on controling the RPM and motor on /off. Hoss needs Help to build again , so please donate.

Micro Rotors

11-04-2007, 07:38 PM

Thanks Bill, That's above and beyond, I'd appreciate any help.
It's been a nightmare week, must be Halloween, and it got even worse.
Hooked up the driver from Keling last night and it works great.
I only have 24 VDC so I got the cheaper KL-4030 Driver (http://www.kelinginc.net/KLDriver.html).
I made room in my case for it and 3 more.
Tested it out with the X axis and worked great.
Thought I'd double check the Spindle operation and popped open the power switch.:nono:
Boom! Sparks started shooting out like I was arc welding.
The C6 Spindle board (http://www.cnc4pc.com/Store/osc/product_info.php?cPath=25&products_id=58) was no more.
I think something metal (wire strand) got between the board and the case (3/8 inch gap)
Looked like the cat under the chair in National Lampoons Christmas Vacation.
Fried several chips and the relay. Good thing it's fairly cheap to replace.
They say bad things happen in 3's so hopefully I'm OK now,
(2) driver boards and a C6 board. $400 up in smoke.
I'll be happy to get back to milling and get this electronic stuff behind me.
I have a button here (http://www.hossmachine.com/store.html) (on the left side) that you can use to donate Bill,
Thanks Hoss

Hoss,

I sent you the money via paypal, it will say its from ebayrotors.

Well get her fixed up so you can continue with your research. I will also be picking your brain for some information on your controller box soon anyways. :D

To All,

Come on guy's, you all know that Hoss has contributed more than most on this board and if you are reading this ... you more than likely are using his work, sweat and/or blood, so it's time to pony up and help him out in his time of need. Again if you are reading this, you are benifiting from his work. Anything will do!!!

Thanks Again Hoss, Thanks Again!

Bill

hoss2006

11-05-2007, 09:57 AM

Bob, Bill and Tom, You guys Rock!
Thanks so much for the help, it's much appreciated.
I'll be able to get the mill back up and running sooner or later and
get this ATC project finished, at least Phase 1.
Thanks again, Hoss

Fifty_ohm

11-06-2007, 12:08 AM

From looking at the pictures of the C6 spindle board I don't think it would be too hard to repair. In fact I probably have the needed chips in my stockpile of electronic parts. If you're interested I'd take a look at it for you. No cost to you. Consider it payment for the info you've provided.

Let me know if you're interested.

ataxy

11-06-2007, 10:14 AM

how do you intend on making your tool holder, i was wondering?

hoss2006

11-09-2007, 06:22 PM

Well, I'm part way back up and running.
Have 3 new Keling Drivers installed so I can do some milling at least.
Still don't have the 4th Axis or C6 Spindle Control yet.
Thanks to those who helped out and with some recent purchases of the X2 Freak DVD-ROM (http://www.hossmachine.com/store.html).
Have the Power Drawbar pretty much complete.
Made some covers for the home switches.
Milled the top plate for the tool rack today.
Have a pair of gas springs to install to help the Z Axis, might get a little more travel.
Once that is finalized, I can figure out what I can use for the tool rack height.
Made several videos but need to do some editing.
Coming together.
Hoss
P.S. This tool rack is for my Freak but should also fit a mill the size of an X3.
I have several versions drawn up for use on the X2 Stock mill, 3 to 6 tool capacity.

Bob Adams

11-09-2007, 08:15 PM

Welcome Back! Hoss
Looking Good.
When you get your C6, can you do a wiring diagram?

tpworks

11-09-2007, 09:29 PM

Hoss,
When you mount the tool holder base are you going to mount it on some springs so you can apply some slight down pressure when picking up the tool?

ataxy

11-09-2007, 10:14 PM

Hoss,
When you mount the tool holder base are you going to mount it on some springs so you can apply some slight down pressure when picking up the tool?

yep thats exactly what i was wondering

dang

11-11-2007, 06:23 AM

Hoss,

You might seriously consider starting a micro-biz with this sort of breakthrough. I'd buy that for a dollar! Maybe even much, much more than a dollar.
A finished ATC for x2 and x3 machines would be sickeningly cool if it were for sale!

hoss2006

11-11-2007, 09:19 AM

You wanna trust my wiring diagram with the troubles of the past couple weeks?
I'll just refer you to the X3 wiring diagram (http://www.cnc4pc.com/Store/osc/product_info.php?cPath=25&products_id=58) from the Cnc4pc website, that's what I used.

I'll have a finished tool rack to show off today or tomorrow.

Have a couple videos up now showing how I have the home switches (http://www.hossmachine.com/Videos7.html#videos39&40) setup
using Mach 3's Soft Limits. No need for limit switches.
Also a video showing the the protective covers (http://www.hossmachine.com/Videos7.html#videos41&42) I made for the switches to keep the chips out.
I used Delrin I had on hand but HDPE (http://www.smallparts.com/products/descriptions/283%2Ecfm)would be cheaper.
Also here's a pic of a 1.5 in. surfacing tool I made from an old boring bar head.
Later Hoss
http://www.hossmachine.com
P.S. If you want to download the videos from Youtube, go to Get2PC.com (http://get2pc.com/).
Just copy and paste the video url, click download, them watch using the FLV Player.
Caution, my latest videos are up to 90 megs each.

hoss2006

11-11-2007, 05:38 PM

Well you asked for it, you got it.:wee: 7 weeks and 150 posts later.
The Automatic Tool Changer (http://www.hossmachine.com/Videos7.html#videos41&42) video is up.
Shows the initial run through with a couple of tool changes.
When I get the C6 board back up and running for the spindle control, it'll be complete.
I added some stiff springs to the tool rack to allow it to give a bit.
I don't have a lot of room for drill bits right now but will make a couple mods to fix that.
Won't be a concern with Phase 2 with the articulating tool rack but that's down the road.
This simple tool rack is cheap, effective and does the job.
Took a little fudging with the macro to get each tool position coordinate set.
I'll edit a "blooper video" that shows how to make adjustments when things don't quite mesh the first time.
My 7 position rack will fit a mill with 5.0 inches Y travel (2.0 in. X)
I have racks drawn for the Stock X2 that needs 3.25 in Y travel.
A simple 3 holer that only takes up 1.75 in of the X Axis and
a double row 6 holer that uses 3 inches of X axis real estate.
I've shown how to get 11 inches of X axis travel on the X2 here (http://www.hossmachine.com/Videos_1.html#videos5&6) to make up the difference.
If you pin the tool racks into position and make more than one(just the top plate maybe),
you could swap them out for different configurations.
Have rack A with 6 small holes (tools 1-6) and rack B with 3 small, 2 large holes (tools 7-11) etc.
The Mach 3 macro can handle up to 250 or so different tools I believe.
The possibilities are vast.
The videos from Artsoft (http://www.machsupport.com/Videos/Mach3%20Video%20Selections/Mach3%20Video%20Selections.html)are must see, 'Cooordinate systems' talks about home switches and soft limits
and 'Tool Change' shows how to use the m6start macro.
I'll post some prints later after I make some changes.
Have Fun, Hoss
http://www.hossmachine.com

Bob Adams

11-11-2007, 07:11 PM

Congrads to a Job Well Done!!!:cheers::wee:
What are you going to use to set tool heights?

ataxy

11-11-2007, 07:45 PM

wonderfull you are doing a wonderfull job your modification are inspiring

so i know i may be fast asking on your next project but what would be next... a servo for the spindle?? so that you can use a boring head with the tool changer

also what are you gone a be doing about chip going on your tool plate and tool holder

Micro Rotors

11-12-2007, 04:53 PM

Amazing, simply Amazing! :D

What a great job Hoss, Were are the plans and materials list.? I am dieing to make one.

I am glad you are up and running to continue with your pioneer work on the X2 Freak!

The real question is what could possibly be left to do?

Bill

hoss2006

11-12-2007, 04:55 PM

Thanks Bob, Ataxy,
Next project?
I'll need my 4th,5th axis working again first.
I'm noodling on a screen for the tool rack, haven't nailed it down yet.
Did some experimenting with the Mach 3 tool change macro.
I can set it so it won't go all the way up on the Z in between tool changes
when there is no tool in the spindle.
That will cut down on the time.
I'll set it up tomorrow and test it out.
Still need to see why it seems to move at a feedrate instead of rapid between changes.
Too sluggish the way it is right now.
Later Hoss

ataxy

11-12-2007, 05:15 PM

Still need to see why it seems to move at a feedrate instead of rapid between changes.
Too sluggish the way it is right now.
Later Hoss

thats why its slow!! ahhh i was wondering how come you rapid was that slow

snowshovelbmx

11-13-2007, 01:41 AM

Congratulations Hoss! Looks amazing!.

chris

Bob Adams

11-13-2007, 01:23 PM

Hey Hoss, is there a relay on the C6 board for the spindle on/off?

hoss2006

11-13-2007, 02:33 PM

Hey Bob,
Sure is a relay, that's one of the parts I fried.
Not sure what it's function is, I think the C6 turns power on/off by regulating the voltage to the Sieg board.
I think the relay may be for the 24 Volt CW/CCW function that the mill doesn't use.
That's where the traces go to.

I have a few new videos up (http://www.hossmachine.com/Videos8.html#videos43&44).
A new tool change with improved speed by limiting the Z axis travel between
tool positions when there is no tool in spindle.
I also found a glich I had in keygrabber that limited my rapids to 50%.
My Z is still way too slow, only getting 20IPM rapids. ordered a 36V power supply for it
to give it some juice.
Also a video showing how to set the tools in the rack and input the data into the tool change macro.
Finally one showing the home switch repeatability.
Referenced home, then moved off and set the X at 2.0000.
Referenced home again and checked that it repeated 2.0000 each time, it did.
Hoss
http://www.hossmachine.com

ataxy

11-13-2007, 08:16 PM

hoss2006

11-18-2007, 07:22 AM

Thought I'd update the Tool Holder Prints.
I've settled on 3 sizes so you could pick and choose which would suit your purposes.
I have Smalls which are mainly for endmills up to .500 dia. shanks,
Mediums for a very small 3/8 drill chuck and a .750 endmill,
and Larges for 2 types of 3/8 drill chucks and possibly 1/2 drill chucks.
I've made the flange .200 thick, different from a Tormach, but will work with
the Phase 2 Articulating Tool Rack.
The LMS ATC (http://www.littlemachineshop.com/products/product_view.php?ProductID=2937&category=209730719)requires mods to the Tormach tool holders to work with their rack too.
I'm planning 2 styles of rack that will work with both holders with no mods.
Sources for the Drill chucks can be found here,
Small 3/8 Drill Chuck (http://www.wttool.com/product-exec/product_id/36790/nm/Multi_Craft_Economy_Chuck)
Keyless 3/8 Drill Chuck (http://www.wttool.com/product-exec/product_id/37231/nm/Hand_Tite_Keyless_Chucks)
JT2 3/8 Drill Chuck (http://www.littlemachineshop.com/products/product_view.php?ProductID=1213&category=).
Later Hoss
http://www.hossmachine.com

P.S. The body diameter of the Small tool holder is only .050 less than the Medium tool holder.
I made the Medium big enough to use the small 3/8 drill chuck after I had already made the Smalls.
I would just make them all the same diameter as the Mediums if I was starting from scratch.

Micro Rotors

11-18-2007, 05:20 PM

Hoss,

What material are you making these from?

Thanks
Bill

hoss2006

11-18-2007, 05:39 PM

Hey Bill,
What I had laying around,
some Stainless Steel, some O1 drill rod and some Cold Rolled Steel.
O1 Drill Rod would be preferable, it's tougher.
Hoss

Micro Rotors

11-18-2007, 06:08 PM

Is that from McMaster Carr?

Bill

hoss2006

11-19-2007, 06:18 PM

Hey Bill,
McMaster, MSC Direct or Ebay are my usual suppliers.

I have a few new videos up (http://www.hossmachine.com/Videos8.html#videos47&48).
Setting the tool Heights using the DRO, My new rapids with the 40V power supply
and making home switch covers using the ATC.
Still don't have the C6 board replaced yet but was able to rig up spindle control
using a couple relays.
Getting 140 IPM rapids now on the X axis and 30 IPM (almost double) on the Z, the Y is in progress.
The strange sounds and movement in the ATC video is mach 3 using backlash compensation.
I was getting .020 backlash on the Y axis so I enabled it to try it out.
it works but it's weird.
Found a couple stripped screws on the ballnut stopblock that was the problem
so i'll fix that and should be able to stop using the compensation again.
later Hoss
http://www.hossmachine.com

Micro Rotors

11-20-2007, 01:02 PM

Dang Hoss,

Your steppers sound kinda scary, your Z sounds the worst. Is something wrong?

Thanks
Bill

hoss2006

11-20-2007, 02:23 PM

The strange sounds and movement in the ATC video is mach 3 using backlash compensation.
I was getting .020 backlash on the Y axis so I enabled it to try it out.
it works but it's weird.

once i fix the y axis stopblock, i'll be turning the backlash comp off.
it is pretty strange, i told it to use 100% speed of max
but still behaves that way with the growling.
hoss

Bob Adams

11-21-2007, 11:03 AM

hoss2006

11-21-2007, 11:44 AM

Hey Bob,
running half step on the x and y and full step(with 2:1 pulley) on the z.
(x)2000 steps,140 ipm,25 acceleration.
hmmm, maybe i'll try 80 volts next :)
ehh, that's more money.
Hoss

Bob Adams

11-21-2007, 12:01 PM

Hey Hoss, I know you had a problem with the other drivers. But before you had the problem. How would you rate what you have now, with what you had when they were running OK?

hoss2006

11-21-2007, 12:16 PM

Performance wise, the Xylotex worked as well as the new Keling drivers (http://www.kelinginc.net/KLDriver.html)do(at 24 volts),
but the xylotex could only handle 35 volts where the cheapest kelings (4030)
handle 40 volts for only a few more bucks.
Also the xylotex only goes to 1/8 microstepping, the keling 4030, 1/64 microstepping.
the biggest advantage for the keling is that it has circuit protection built in
where the xylotex has absolutely nothing.
One little mistake and 3 or 4 axis are dead.
hey, accidents happen but they shouldn't have to cost $200.
Hoss

Micro Rotors

11-21-2007, 12:55 PM

Hoss,

Those drivers look pretty good, I do have a HobbyCNCPRO board and I am wondering if I should go with the Keling drivers, any thoughts? I do have their steppers (KL23H286-20-8B) that are pretty nice and I am happy with them.

Do you know when you will be able to do a post on your controller? (hint, hint, wink, wink) :P

Many Thanks
Bill

hoss2006

11-21-2007, 02:27 PM

Which controller?
the big pendant or the mill drivers case?
here's a couple pics to make it easy.
just follow the color coded wires :)
someday i'll try to make a schematic from these messes.
Hoss

Micro Rotors

11-21-2007, 02:46 PM

just follow the color coded wires :)
Hoss

HAHAHA

I was talking about the pendent.

Now the ATC is finished, you have PLENTY of spare time!

BTW ... The case ... looks like you threw in a M-80 in there!

Bill

hoss2006

11-21-2007, 03:18 PM

Spare Time? what's that like?
I still have about 6 more projects to tackle including taking that mess
and making something a bit cooler like this (http://www.machmotion.com/product_info.php?cPath=30&products_id=62).
I have my 19 in. flatscreen monitor, a small laptop sized keyboard, a trackball etc.
just need a case to put it in and this pulse generator (http://www.cnc4pc.com/Store/osc/product_info.php?cPath=29&products_id=157).
We get the week off for Xmas this year so i'll wait till then probably.

JHCHOPPERS

11-21-2007, 04:36 PM

No need for limit switches...

Hoss,

I have been following your thread for a while, very nice work!

Soft limits are great, but hard limits will save your machine if you get a hardware failure and you overrun your limits. You can always add them at a later time...

Again, very nice work. I hope to do something simulare on our BridgePort

Joel

tpworks

11-21-2007, 07:20 PM

Hoss,
I think what these guys are hearing is your compressor kicking on during the video,
looks like it kicks on just as your Z starts moving on the first tool change.

hoss2006

11-21-2007, 09:26 PM

digits

11-22-2007, 04:53 AM

Good point Tom,
Have a new video showing the tool changer (http://www.hossmachine.com/Videos9.html#videos49&50) moving a lot quicker now.
With the new rapids,
X=130IPM
Y=65IPM
Z=30IPM
gets the tools in and out a little more to my liking.

Next Project?
Hoss
http://www.hossmachine.com

That's a lot more like it Hoss - you just need to fit some crazy servo to your Z to get that up to speed ;)

Congratulations on yet another fantastic 'mod' to your X-2. One question though, do you think you'll use your articulated head much now that you have your ATC - are you planning to re-install your 4-th axis instead?

Cheers.

hoss2006

11-22-2007, 08:21 AM

Hey Digits,
I looked into a servo for the Z, would cost about another $400+ for a good motor,
driver and power supply.
Another possibility is to get an 80 Volt Keling driver and power supply, about $260.
That should, in theory, double the speed. maybe someday.
This project isn't quite finished, still have to put it to use and show how to set it up for a run.
Then there is the articulating tool rack...
i'll be using the 4th axis again this weekend to make a big timing pulley for one of the other projects.
Just have to move it down a bit past the tool rack.
If I have to I'll add a couple .250 dowel pins to the rack base so I could remove it now
then put it back in the exact same spot later.
I should do that anyway.
Hoss

http://www.hossmachine.com

digits

11-22-2007, 06:33 PM

Bob Adams

11-23-2007, 01:02 PM

Yeah, servos are pricey, but having pretty decent torque all the way from 0-4000 rpm seems pretty special to me :)

I am really impressed with the elegant simplicity of your ATC Hoss - every X2 should have one IMHO :)

If you take a DC motor and add an Encoder to the motor , you have a servo.
A while back I purchase a couple of DC motors for $10.00 and add a $35.00 Encoder, Total $45.00 for one.They sold out right quick before i could buy more. So look for the DC Motor Sales.

hoss2006

11-23-2007, 11:00 PM

Couple final ATC videos for now.
These show how to set the tools in Mach 3 with Tool Offsets.
Show it making the Z axis home switch cover.
Hey, now I could start cranking the covers sets out to sell :)
Check out parts A and B here (http://www.hossmachine.com/Videos9.html#videos49&50).
Later Hoss

http://www.hossmachine.com

Bob Adams

11-25-2007, 11:25 PM

hoss2006

11-26-2007, 12:26 PM

Hey Bob,
got the limit switches at my new favorite store, Surplus Center. (http://www.surpluscenter.com/item.asp?UID=2007112611131190&item=11-1516)
They are wired in series with one wire going to your choice of input pin on the breakout board
and the other to 5V.
Check out 'Wiring Sample 1' at the bottom of the page at cnc4pc (http://www.cnc4pc.com/Store/osc/product_info.php?cPath=33&products_id=45&osCsid=b0ce4e6a6a5e17379d53b8b2ea03ecde)

Later Hoss

bobchiloquin

11-26-2007, 04:18 PM

Hoss,

I've been to your website and tried to send you an email, but it keeps getting bounced, so this may be a little OT. Lots of good information on your site, but I have some questions concerning your control panel. In photo 21, what are the silver buttons next to the axis buttons? I've watched the video on operating the control panel, but your hand gets in the way, and I can't really see what you are doing. How about redoing the video so the camera stays focused on the control panel instead of moving to the mill and back. I can hear what the mill is doing. I'd rather see what you're doing. In the upper right corner there are 2 black knobs. It looks like the one on the left is a 3 position switch. Is the one on the right a 2 position? Can you post a full frame photo of both the front and top so I can read the labels? Why didn't you use one of the joy sticks that was in the game controller instead of the one you did use? Did you end up having two USB cables going to your computer? It would appear that you have made more than one of these control panels. Have you given any thought to selling them?

Sorry about all the questions.

About the ATC. Did you do any experiments to determine how much pull you actually needed to keep the tool holder from spinning in the collet?

Thanks for your time and good luck on getting your mill working 100%.

Bob Hayes
Chiloquin, OR

hoss2006

11-26-2007, 06:32 PM

Hey Bob,
The silver buttons are for feed hold.
They are holding pushbutton switches wired in parallel with the axis button.
Below is a high res pic of the panel that shows the 2 knobs on the right
are the twin joysticks of the Phillips game controller.
I made my own main joystick for space savings and coolness.
I've only made the one controller, way too much work to sell them.
Yes, 2 usb cables to the PC.
When you open up the Logitech and the Phillips, you can see the switches
on the circuit boards. I just soldered jumper wires from them to each of the control panel switches.
Re: power drawbar. From what I've read elsewhere, the spring tension necessary is about 600Lbs.
Later Hoss
An alternate email address for me is erniek@iwon.com.

http://www.hossmachine.com

Micro Rotors

11-26-2007, 06:46 PM

Hoss,

You are teasing me, :stickpoke when will you do a post on it???????????????

Thanks
Bill

Bob Adams

11-27-2007, 01:22 PM

I was using a STD R8 collet till the one purchase from Tormach came, When I installed the Tormach R8. I found that it was not opening enough to change tools. So what I did was to add one more washer to the four I had, Works perfect now.
Bob A
http://www.cad2gcode.com/cncprojects

BeerFizz

11-27-2007, 08:51 PM

Great work Hoss and Bob. Nicely done!

Please let me know if either of you would think this might work...

If I understand correctly, we need about 1100 lbs to compress the belville springs. The approach you took was to use an air cylinder with about 100 lbs (give or take) plus a lever to bring you up to to the 1100 or so...

So, I was wondering if a more compact device might be built by using an air cylinder capable of producing the 1100 lbs directly. This cylinder could then squat directly on top of the draw bolt.

This link shows a cylinder that has a 4 inch bore:
http://www.poweraire.com/compact-cylinders-ncq2-series-compact-cylinders-c-35_522_548.html
edit: this link shows a family of these particular cylinders... only up to 2.5", can't find the 4 inch one yet...

Using Bobs program, a 4 inch bore should result in about about the required 1100 lbs at 100 psi.

Do you think this might work?

Bob Adams

11-27-2007, 09:04 PM

Great work Hoss and Bob. Nicely done!

Please let me know if either of you would think this might work...

If I understand correctly, we need about 1100 lbs to compress the belville springs. The approach you took was to use an air cylinder with about 100 lbs (give or take) plus a lever to bring you up to to the 1100 or so...

So, I was wondering if a more compact device might be built by using an air cylinder capable of producing the 1100 lbs directly. This cylinder could then squat directly on top of the draw bolt.

This link shows a cylinder that has a 4 inch bore:
http://www1.mscdirect.com/CGI/NNSRIT?PMPXNO=7204589&PMT4NO=33513154

Using Bobs program, a 4 inch bore should result in about about the required 1100 lbs at 100 psi.

Do you think this might work?

This cylinder costs $30 and along with a plate, some bolts and spacers and a valve???? I'm sure that would work great, but for $3.95 for the used cylinder. It all a matter of the cost of the project. I would prefer the bigger cylinder if cost wasn't the factor. I think the $30.00 price is for the mount not the Cylinder.

KOS

11-27-2007, 09:09 PM

how heavy is that 4" bore cylinder? i have a 5" one in my shop but it would be heavy to have sit on my mill which is a X3 so it has a larger head and column...Is it actually 1100lbs or is it less? Some where HOSS mentioned 660lbs or something but not sure if that was the spring or for collet removal

BeerFizz

11-27-2007, 09:25 PM

Hi Koss,

not sure of the weight or physical size of the cylinder... I'm having trouble getting exact specs. Of course, it may be way to heavy etc. If the required force is 600lbs or so then the cylinder could be smaller... around a 3 inch bore (Bobs program).

This is the 2.5 inch bore.
http://www.poweraire.com/series-compact-cylinder-63mm-bore-p-675.html

BeerFizz

11-27-2007, 09:40 PM

re. the CQ2 Compact air cylinder.

http://www.coastpneumatics.com/pdfs/smc/70ASTCCQ2.pdf

The dimensions are on page 18 of this document. For the 80mm bore device, the height appears to be about 63mm + stroke and about 100mm square. The smallest stroke is 10mm which is plenty.

Weight is on page 5 and for the 80mm bore with a 10mm stroke plus rod end is about 270+170g ie about 15 oz, which seems very low. Can someone check that?

BeerFizz

11-27-2007, 10:07 PM

I'm sure that would work great, but for $3.95 for the used cylinder. It all a matter of the cost of the project. I would prefer the bigger cylinder if cost wasn't the factor. I think the $30.00 price is for the mount not the Cylinder.

Hi Bob,

yes, the original link I posted was the mount. Not easy to find info on this stuff, but it does appear that the 3 inch device (80mm) is n the $70-80 range and the 4 inch device is in the $130 range.

The 3 inch device should produce about 700lbs at 100 psi and the 4 inch about 1200 lbs. The device itself seems to weigh about 1 pound.

I'll call the manufacturer in the morning and see if I can confirm this information.

hoss2006

11-28-2007, 02:53 PM

The LMS Power Drawbar (http://www.littlemachineshop.com/products/product_view.php?ProductID=2936&category=209730719) appears to use the same type of air cylinder you've
been talking about, something with a 2.5 to 3.5 diameter piston.
It allows them to install the cylinder inside the housing but the housing isn't noticeably
any smaller than the one I designed.
They still use a small cam and lever to get 1000 lbs of force.
The air cylinder is the main component to which everything else is designed around.
You can spend more (alot) on the cylinder to shrink everything else around it.
Might explain the cost of their unit.
To each his own.
Hoss

BeerFizz

11-28-2007, 03:54 PM

Hoss,

Please don't get me wrong. What you did is absolutely fantastic. I'm not sure I have the skill set to make all the associated parts and so I was looking at alternatives.

Today, I spoke (im'd) with the company which sells that cylinder and this is basically what I found:

The 100 mm device (4 inches) sells for about $124.
At this price it has:
10mm stroke
single rod
no magnet
is double acting
is about 5 inches square and 4 high
and weighs less than 2lbs.

According to Bobs program this will generate 1200lbs at 100psi.

edit: I guess if I get a chance to do this, I would have it squat directly over the bolt with perhaps adjusting nuts for the height.

Oldboy

11-28-2007, 11:52 PM

Hi everyone this is my first post. Yep Im new to the form.
Ben busy looking over HOSS web site. HOSS Your AWSOME!
Would like to ask you some qestions if you don't mind me email you?
Watch your Video's with grate excitment. Your new tool changer Video was realy something.

hoss2006

11-29-2007, 04:28 PM

Email away Oldboy, I'm glad to help.

you can email directly to

hoss@hossmachine.com

tsalaf

11-29-2007, 09:16 PM

How have the spindle bearings been holding up with the added force of the release cylinder?

dang

12-01-2007, 10:53 AM

Hoss,

Sorry to egg you on like this, but have you thought about a pallet or in the mini's case, an Automatic Tooling Plate Changer?
Ideally, a person could set up two jobs and cycle through them automatically as the 1st finishes.
Now that I think of it, it's impractical for the X2. Still a fun idea though.

Adamj12b

12-07-2007, 05:09 PM

I added a second parallel port to give me some extra outputs that I'll connect the breakout board to.

What kind of card did you use for the second parallel port? i have tried several different cards with no success on any of them.-Adam

Mr.Chips

12-07-2007, 05:34 PM

What kind of card did you use for the second parallel port? i have tried several different cards with no success on any of them.-Adam

I'll tell you what I did, and it worked for me.
Baught a Parallel port at Comp USA for $15.
Installed it.
Using XP operating system.
Opened Control Panel
click on System Icon
click on Hardware
click on Device Manager
Scroll down to Ports and click the "+"
Right click the new port
Select properties
Click the Resources tab
The Setting is the number you need to input into Mach3 for Mach 3 to know where to look for the data.

Good luck.

Adamj12b

12-09-2007, 01:29 PM

The Setting is the number you need to input into Mach3 for Mach 3 to know where to look for the data.
Good luck.

Did you enter the full 03F8-03FF or just one section of the numbers?-Adam

hoss2006

12-09-2007, 02:48 PM

Originally Posted by Mr.Chips View Post
The Setting is the number you need to input into Mach3 for Mach 3 to know where to look for the data.
Good luck.
Did you enter the full 03F8-03FF or just one section of the numbers?-Adam

you would just enter the first 4 characters - O3F8.
hoss

Regnar

12-09-2007, 05:51 PM

Hoss great thread/threads. I really find this all amazing and you have me droowling at the mouth. I have a question/suggestion. Rather than measuring each tool couldnt you make a touch off "dont think thats the techincal name for it" that zeros before it goes cutting away? Seems like it would save you some time especially if you change cutters. I am just learing the mill side and soon will jump into the cnc side. Thanks for you help. Josh

tpworks

12-09-2007, 06:58 PM

I think it would be more like 0x3F8,
feel free to correct me if I'm wrong.

hoss2006

12-09-2007, 07:17 PM

Technically he could just type 3F8, Mach 3 will automatically add the 0x when it closes the Config window.
they make it pretty simple.
hoss

P.S. hossmachine.com should be back up in a day or 2.
singed up with GoDaddy.com and have to wait till they get the domain name transfered.

Micro Rotors

12-10-2007, 02:46 PM

Hoss,

You made the right decision, GoDaddy is the way to go. I have had the for years and have always been happy with them and their services. What is up your sleeve for the next project?

Bill

hoss2006

12-13-2007, 06:05 PM

twocik

12-13-2007, 10:07 PM

Hi Hoss,
I've used www.galatix.com for the last two years now and can't complain one bit. Talk with Nathan and tell him Chris from ifocusfilms.net sent you. He will definitely help you out and give you a great deal. :)

Nice job on the projects of the X2 btw! Look forward to what you're going to come up with next. I just wish for my first machine I would have bought the X2 or even the X3. My little X1 doesn't even hole a candle to the X2 from what I've read.

Micro Rotors

12-13-2007, 10:12 PM

Hey Bill,
I'm getting a big run around trying to have my domain name transfered to godaddy.com.
present registrar won't reply to emails and such.
giving up for now. will wait till it expires soon, then register it with godaddy then.
good news is the site is back up and running at my present host.
My next project is the flood coolant enclosure.
Not going fully enclosed but partial like on a old Matsuura.
A base and walls but no top.
Using Herculiner (http://www.247autoparts.com/store/herculiner.html) to make it all leak proof. Not cheap but should be very durable.
Hoss

Hoss,

Can you call them? Have you asked GoDaddy what you should do? Have them chase it for you. They have the best customer service around and the price is sweet!

The closure sounds good, are you going to do a another thread for that one?

Thanks
Bill

hoss2006

12-14-2007, 11:48 AM

I'll probably just add onto the big post, won't be too much to the enclosure.
Hoss

Adamj12b

12-21-2007, 12:36 AM

Do you have any cad drawings of the tool holders that you made? I am interested in making some of my own. Also what material did you make them out of? -Adam

Thazul

12-21-2007, 12:31 PM

Hi Adam,

I think post #161 has the drawings of Hoss's tool holders.
Here's a direct link http://www.cnczone.com/forums/showpost.php?p=367753&postcount=161

Adamj12b

12-21-2007, 01:08 PM

Thanks, I must have missed it when I was skimming through.

Also, I fixed my problem address with the pci parallel port card. In the Mach3 folder there is a program called Getportaddress, that tells you the addresses of the LPT ports. I just typed in what it said and it works great. Even with the cards that I couldn't get to work before.

Bob Adams

12-21-2007, 08:44 PM

Hey Hoss, I recenitly got a couple of tool holders to try with my ATC power drawbar. I noticed the end mills had a .005 roundout. So after pulling my hair out, it dawned on me to check the face on the X2 spindle. Sure enough it runs out the .005 that the tool holder had. The quick fix was to pullout the tool post grinder and face grind the end of the Spindle, till it ran true. With a few passes it was fixed.
Hope this helps others.:wave:
Bob A
http://www.cad2gcode.com/cncprojects/

Micro Rotors

12-27-2007, 06:00 PM

Hoss,

Sent you an email about the washers.

Thanks
Bill

hoss2006

12-28-2007, 10:23 AM

I have a link on my ATC page (http://www.hossmachine.com/projects_7.html) for the Belleville washers that you can get at McMaster Carr too.
They are a little cheaper and should have cheaper shipping than MscDirect.

(96445K267) Precision Metric Belleville Disc Spring Chrome Vanadium, DIN 2, 12.2mm ID, 25mm OD, 1.5mm Thk
In stock at $5.31 per Pack
This product is sold in Packs of 12

I just ordered some hardware for my flood coolant enclosure Wed evening from Mcmaster
and it should be here today (fri), I'm only a couple hundred miles away though.
Later Hoss

skip20

01-30-2008, 12:39 PM

don't run out and buy the c6 board from cnc4pc just yet.
gliches are popping up.
changing the motor tuning settings to get the spindle motor to run is affecting the steppers
i.e. pulse width.
have to do a little research.
hoss

Is it the same box as you stepper controller?
I installed a 90VDC speed controller in my bo & the servo's went craze.
skip20

skip20

01-30-2008, 01:24 PM

Just found you from TVTube, Them your web site & now this site.
I haven't used any of your great work or idea's, but I sure do plan to.
I've made a $25.00 donate & hope to help you keep going.
I have fryed many boards, including 2 Gecko's, so I understand ware you are.
You are doing a great job & service to the Hobby CNC group.
You no longer have to put out $20,000.00 for an engraving table & now can do so much more.
I'm an Engraver by trade & had 2 router table @ 16-24,000.00 each & a Laser engraver @ $28,000.00.
I now have a 4' x 8' custom built Router with a X2 motor on it & a tool changer to come.
Thanks again for your great web site & service to us.
Skip20

davo727

02-04-2008, 06:31 PM

pzzamakr1980

03-04-2008, 01:54 AM

Hey Hoss, thx for the link on that relay for the coolant once again. I'm going to be doing this as my next project for my x3, and wanted to ask you about your holders for the tormach tool holders. You said earlier in the post that you have a rack that works with the tormach stuff. Do you have any drawings or pictures, or is it still up in the noggin.
Thx again
Damien

Micro Rotors

03-04-2008, 02:24 AM

pzzamakr1980,

I think you might be looking for this. Its almost on the bottom of the page.

http://www.hossmachine.info/projects_7.html

digits

03-04-2008, 05:21 AM

Hi, On the subject of do it yourself toolchangers and macro software for mach3 : Anyone know how you would you line up a tool and spindle to change the tool properly with a cat40 style setup that has drive lugs that have to line up to get the tool seated? Thanks, Dave

I would have thought that you'd need some tool rack that prevented the stored tools from rotating and an indexing spindle with some sort of encoder feedback that could be used to make the spindle's drive lugs point a certain way. For example if you had a servo driving your spindle, you would treat it as a C-axis during tool changes, and then as a simple speed-controlled device during cutting. I'm not sure if Mach can do this in software/G-code alone, but it could be done with a minimum of electronics controlled by a Mach 3 driven output.

hoss2006

03-05-2008, 04:54 PM

pzzamakr1980,

I think you might be looking for this. Its almost on the bottom of the page.

http://www.hossmachine.info/projects_7.html

Nice catch Bill, Thanks :cheers:
Hoss

pzzamakr1980

03-05-2008, 05:13 PM

Yep, that was what I was looking for. Thank you

Micro Rotors

03-06-2008, 01:59 AM

Hoss,

No problem!, I gotcha back! :D

pzzamakr1980

03-06-2008, 02:05 AM

Okay, I've been trying out the tool offsets and getting ready for my own ATC and have had the same issue that a few people have been having. When I change from one tool to another, which will now successfully call the next tool after figuring out the setting in MCX, the problem is that going from one tool to another will trigger a soft limit error, on the z axis. Someone in another post I can no longer find had mentioned you have to cancel each tool offset before you get the next tool otherwise the offsets add together or something. Can this be accomplished with just putting a G49 right before the tool change such as I did in this post. (See attached, about halfway down) Or does it require something more complex? Hoss, would you mind posting some of your g-code that uses your ATC so I could see how it runs? Thx again everybody.

Bob Adams

03-06-2008, 02:17 PM

hoss2006

03-06-2008, 02:23 PM

Sure, Here's one of the programs for making the home switch covers.
It uses tool #4 to mill the pocket, changes to tool #6 to drill 2 holes,
then changes back to tool #4 to mill the outside.
The video is here. (http://www.hossmachine.info/Videos8.html#videos47&48)
Hoss

pzzamakr1980

03-06-2008, 05:39 PM

Hey Bob, you're right. It was changed before I ran it and I still had problems.

Bob Adams

03-06-2008, 05:55 PM

Hey Bob, you're right. It was changed before I ran it and I still had problems. What machine do you have and what controller are you using?

pzzamakr1980

03-06-2008, 05:59 PM

Im using an x3 with a cncfusion setup running the newest version of mach

hoss2006

03-07-2008, 06:17 PM

If you noticed in the program I posted, I didn't use G43 on that one I used a G55
for the 2nd tools Z offset as an experiment.
That could be limiting and confusing, Sorry.
Here's the g-code for the Z axis covers.
I used G43 in this one. ie. N0003 G43 T1 M06
I had to go back and watch my videos to jog my memory, I haven't had the ATC
running since working on the tooling plate and enclosure.
The videos Setting tools for ATC A and B (http://www.hossmachine.info/Videos9.html#videos49&50) show how to set the offsets for the tools.
Tool #1 must be set up as the reference in the Tool table for Mach 3 to know
what the offsets for all the other tools will be in comparison.
You can set up 253 tools in the tool table if necessary.
Hoss

pzzamakr1980

03-07-2008, 11:34 PM

Hey Hoss, thx, I noticed something else. If you look right before the tool change there is a change from g90 to g91. It doesnt change back to g90 until after the tool change. Would this make a difference. I havent been able to try anything yet because I've been sick. But what do you think?

hoss2006

03-08-2008, 04:00 AM

Yeah, my program only uses G90.
What program did you use to generate the code?
I used Deskcnc for the separate tools then pasted them together.
Hoss

pzzamakr1980

03-08-2008, 02:22 PM

mastercam, using the boss post. Ill try putting it back to g90 right after it makes that move and see if it works

Bob Adams

03-08-2008, 04:08 PM

Hey Hoss, I came up with this $1.99 Tool Setter. Could this adapt to your ATC Rack or some other place?
Check it out at:
http://www.cad2gcode.com/cncprojects/id16.html
Bob A

hoss2006

03-08-2008, 05:02 PM

Pretty cool lookin there Bob.
Could you post a video showing how it works?
Awesome,
Hoss

pzzamakr1980

03-08-2008, 05:17 PM

Thats very cool. Now if you could wire it directly to the Breakout board and have mach stop when it trips, that would be great. Kinda like what the aussies have done, just in a much more professional looking way.

ataxy

03-08-2008, 05:27 PM

Pretty cool lookin there Bob.
Could you post a video showing how it works?
Awesome,
Hoss
when the tool touch the top part it complete the circuit between the base and top and light up the led in it like all base master

Bob Adams

03-08-2008, 06:34 PM

Pretty cool lookin there Bob.
Could you post a video showing how it works?
Awesome,
HossSorry, I don't have a camcorder. It should work like your gauge block, except it lights up. I used my Digital calipers to check when the light came on. Repeated every time with in .001, good enough for me. The height I have is 2.25O for the Gauge height. i thought you might have a better idea?
Thinkcnc
Bob A
www.cad2gcode.com

Bob Adams

03-08-2008, 10:02 PM

Sorry, I don't have a camcorder. It should work like your gauge block, except it lights up. I used my Digital calipers to check when the light came on. Repeated every time with in .001, good enough for me. The height I have is 2.25O for the Gauge height. i thought you might have a better idea?
Thinkcnc
Bob A
www.cad2gcode.com Here's a YouTube Video of a store bought Tool setter.
YouTube - Z-axis electronic Height Gauge tutorial

Bob A

hoss2006

04-08-2008, 03:59 PM

Stay tuned, Starting on Hoss ATC Project Phase 2.
Mulled over a bunch of scenarios in my head and settled on one.
It works in my head anyway.:)
Started on the drawings and parts sourcing for it.
Will be a 16 tool that won't be attached to the x,y table in any way.
Have to spend about $300.
If I ever finish the mill console, I can get to work.:tired:

Bob Adams

04-08-2008, 04:08 PM

tooManyHobbies

04-08-2008, 07:14 PM

that won't be attached to the x,y table in any way.

Excellent! That's the only thing I didn't like about your design!

tom

ps My favorite Roy Batty quote: "if only you could see what I have seen with your eyes!"

hoss2006

09-21-2008, 12:30 AM

It's been about 11 months since the Power Drawbar (http://www.hossmachine.info/projects_7.html#power%20drawbar) became operational
so I thought a little update was due.
In a word, Great!
Hasn't given one bit of trouble.
Had a concern that using the stock drawbar with just 2 pairs of belleville springs
but it holds strong even when using the 3 inch surface mill.
The only change I've made is a new piece of air hose when the old scrap one I found to use sprung a leak.
This thing makes tool changes a snap even without the automatic part.
Making the parts for the new ATC (http://www.cnczone.com/forums/showthread.php?t=56451) needed several tool changes per part but
was so much easier just flipping a switch than the old way by hand.
Chef recommends :)

Oldmanandhistoy

09-22-2008, 06:14 PM

hoss2006

09-23-2008, 03:45 AM

Hi Hoss,

You don’t happen to know the required force for a 3MT spindle or where I could find out?

I am also pondering the thought of a purely mechanical draw bar were a lever could be used (as apposed to an air cylinder) to compress the washers to remove the tool. What do you think is it doable?

John

Hey John,
I couldn't locate any data on the force needed for the 3MT but LMS's Zbot (http://www.littlemachineshop.com/products/product_view.php?ProductID=3034&category=) Power Drawbar uses the same number of belleville springs for their 3MT and R8 versions.
The R8 collet needs about 600 Lbs of holding force.
You can adjust the force by how many turns you give the drawbar after it snugs up anyway.
They use 3 pairs of springs but I was able to get away with 2 pairs of 657 Lb springs.
Would be over 1300 lbs of force if I torqued them flat but wouldn't release very well.:)
With a long enough lever and you certainly could apply enough force to open it manually.
Hoss

Oldmanandhistoy

09-23-2008, 06:03 AM

Thanks for your time Hoss it’s very much appreciated :)

I will go and look at the numbers and see what kind of length my lever will need to be; hopefully not too long.

John

digits

09-23-2008, 03:23 PM

Oldmanandhistoy

09-23-2008, 08:05 PM

Do you really want a manual quick change, or are you just trying to do it without compressed air?

Yes I’m looking at a simple manual quick change as even this would save a bundle of time changing tools. Think of it like your quick change tool system you have/had on your X1.

I'd imagine a stepper driver board + screw would work too, but I haven't seen anyone do it yet!

I’m no mechanical engineer but my first thoughts on a stepper setup would use a cam rather than a screw; I would ask for input from the professionals before going the stepper route. This may be a project for the future but for now just looking to save some time and hassle.:)

Having since looked into this after my previous post I may change out my 3MT for an R8 or look at a Tormach spindle. I believe you recently imported one and wondered if you could give me a heads up on price and your first impressions?

Anyway must stop polluting this fine thread and get back on topic (sorry Hoss).

I suppose if I do get more info on the requirement for a 3MT power drawbar I should start a new thread rather than post here?

John

cueshark

09-26-2008, 08:19 PM

hoss
the solenoid on the power draw bar does it push & pull the cylinder or does it just turn the air on & off? thanks greg

hoss2006

09-27-2008, 03:06 AM

Hey Greg,
I replied to your email yesterday buy got a failed delivery notice.
The solenoid valve is just and air switch so to speak, it starts or stops airflow
to the air cylinder.
Later Hoss

ataxy

09-30-2008, 12:07 AM

hey hoss i was looking at the post you made in your forum about the atc and i was wondering? did you tought about the weight of you attachement by that i mean will it be bolted on the coulumn, independent form the mill or what i hope not and i am sure not attached to the head?

hoss2006

09-30-2008, 12:50 AM

The atc will be attached to the column, i just clamped it to the head in the video to hold it up in the air to show the travels.
Might be reworking the slide anyhow to make the whole thing lighter and more compact.
Even being mostly aluminum, it's still pretty heavy.
Such is the business of prototyping.
Hoss

pzzamakr1980

09-30-2008, 02:42 AM

Hey Hoss, just a quick question about the cooling relay wiring. I am running the wire from pin 14 to the positive side of the relay, and the negative is going to common on the parallel port. Is this correct or should it be run to ground? Also, in mach, I set output #1 to pin 14, and enable flood coolant under spindle, and then enter the number 1 next to flood coolant to denote output 1. Correct? Thank you in advance.