My company is beggining to move into CNC and we are looking in particular at the Haas VF-4. One of the options that was suggested to us by our dealer was High-Speed Machining (HSM).

Does anyone have this package already? We are wondering if it is significantly benificial. We have seen CNC drilling machines pause breifly after every hole drilled and then move to the next location. These brief idles do add up.

Will the Haas have this lag without this option or will the HSM just make the motion smoother?

Any other options I should look seriously at?

Thanks

That option come standard with the machine on a 200 hr trial basis. You can turn it on and off to maximize the use of the trial. After the trial runs out if you decide you want it then it is just a matter of calling the dealer with you credit card info and they will give you a code over the phone to punch in to make it active permantly.

Look at options like TSC and 2 speed head as these can not be added later. Also I highly recomend the Probing package.

JP

I think you should talk to a Haas rep. that knows what they are talking about and also go to the Haas website and read about the Haas HSM option. I researched it before ordering a machine with this option.

I think there is some confusion and ambiguity about what is meant by High Speed Machining:

One meaning appears to apply to the use of (very) high spindle speeds, (very) small depth of cut and fast feeds for quickly machining hard or high strength materials that previously may have been machined much slower.

Another meaning, and this is how I understand the Haas HSM works, applies to a very long look-ahead control software which includes algorithms for finding and preparing for rapid changes in direction of travel.

I have been told by people at the Haas factory that the HSM does nothing to help run-of-the-mill programs which do not involve fast feed rates and do not have abrupt directions changes. HSM is intended to speed up the machining of complex mold contours at high feed rates without overshooting and gouging at corners.

I don't think HSM will have any effect on things such as drill cycles.

However, I will comment that Haas machines do not seem to waste any time between locations when running canned cycles like G82, G83 provided the correct Settings are used. One Setting is called Exact Stop Canned Cycle, or some name like that, when this is turned ON the controller makes sure it has reached the exact location before starting any Z motion. I think the manual mentions something about this being useful with close tolerance fixtures where the tools have limited space to move.

Regarding options I think you should consider:

Rigid Tapping is a definite Yes in my opinion.

High Flow coolant pump is probably standard.

Programmable Coolant Nozzle so, so. I have it on several machines and most of the time we just use multiple hand adjusted nozzles.

Also I think the Programmable Coolant Nozzle means you cannot have the AIr Blast Nozzle. I think of the two Air Blast may be more useful especially if you do a lot of steel running dry with air blast.

I think a 4th axis is a good thing to have even if you cannot think of a use for it right away. I have found it very useful just as a positioning device to complete parts in a single fixturing.

You can have the Prog nozzle and the air blast on same machine. My Vf-4 does anyway. Sometimes I remove the air gun for clearance on some jobs, but that is just one hand screw and a PTC tube fitting.

And yes the only place the HSM will help is on 3-d contours that are made up of lots of little lines. Without it the machine kind of jerks through all the lines and with it on it is smoother and faster. The other thing it will do is up the max IPM usable, which on occasion would be nice for things such as high speed face mill in aluminum or something. For what its worth I used the trial period of the HSm on mine and did not pay to get after that ran out. I just don't doo enough 3-d stuff.

JP

Hey

Thanks for all the help... we will try the trial however we won't be doing any 3D work either, solely vertical drilling (and lots of it!). As per the other options you have suggested, we were planning on getting the programable minimum oil machining option.

I didn't think we would need the air blast as we are not doing any steel... everything is purely Aluminum. I couldn't find the Rigid tapping option on the Haas website either, would it be necessary for Aluminum or is it more something that would be mecessary with Steel.

Other then that the Haas rep has recommended to us:
-High intensity door activated lighting and the chip converyor (auger)

We have a VF2-SS with HSM but we do alot of surface milling at high feed rates, up to 400 IPM. This option only effects high speed contouring.
That said, what I have learned over the years is to go for all you can get when your buying a new machine. As you learn more about programming and running a CNC mill you will start to do things you never thought of with manual machines. It's like buying a new car. Load it up. And after a few months you'll be thinking "how did I ever get along without this".

JROM makes a good point, that is just how I felt with the probing stuff.

That said however, HSM is one option that with Haas you can buy for the same price now or later on down the road and you can test it out before you buy to see if it makes a difference in your application or not.

Things that cannot be just turned on with a code should be highly considered with the machine purchase such as TSC, 2-speed head, side mount ATC, etc etc. Depending on how tight for money your company is you may not have to buy a 4th axis right away but at least get it wired that way so you have the option down the road.

JP

Thanks for all of your help.

I didn't know we were able to get a trial period on the HSM... that may be the determining factor, although as you have stated it might not help to much if we are just doing uncomplicated drill patterns or using it for any 3D milling surfacese. It is going to be used solely as a vertical drilling machine (on Aluminum only).

That being said I don't know if the air blast would be necessary would it, unless we were drilling a lot of steel?

We have looked at and are planning on getting the programmable MOM (minimum oil machining). As well as the Auger style chip conveyor.

As for forth axis I really don't see it happening in the future for us, as we are having multiple parts on the table at the same time and I don't see the 4rth axis helping with that. TSC?

TSC = Through spindle coolant.
Something to consider heavily if all the machine is going to do is drill. Coolant fed drills don't need to be pecked and can be pushed very fast.

JP

the tsc i one you should think of it is the only option you cant add later (other than things like motor or a gear box)
it is a nice option but the tools like drill bits are extremly expencive if you are not a dedicated shop it is hard to justify the added cost of the tooling per part. the programable coolant will be enuff for aluminum. hsm is also a good option but if all you are doing is softer material and drilling you wont need it works better in harder material and 3d conturing.

If you run a lot of different parts/setups, do yourself a favor and get get the probing package. It is so easy to use.

We have a Haas super vf4 high speed and a Vf5 regular The Hsm Vf4 is way faster tool change and doesnt slow down at all,we also have the probing on both machines a must have in my opinion way faster setups. Plus we do alot of casting that we probeach part to change workoffsets we use to edge find each part. My job is way easier. As far as the Vf4 Hsm its way beter I think. The tool change will change at 5%,25%,50%and a 100% which is fast. The nice thing is when I am running the Indexer if my tools are long and i get nervous I can run it at 5% and it will stop in middle route with feed hold button, The vf5 will not stop and there is only 1 tool change speed.

Tool change speed is not realated to the HSM option, that is with the Super Speed machines only. Your Vf-4 must be a Vf-4SS.

JP

yes hsm will make a tool changes faster if you have the side mount tool changer the next tool will be called when the machine i still cutting there for making the tools change faster the the ss makes the tool swap faster.

HSM does not change the speed of tool changes. I have a VF-4 with side mount and no HSM. There is just a setting you can turn on to allow staging of tools. Then in the program right after you have turned on and start moving with one tool you simply call the next tool with out the M6. It will then stage that tool. When you want to change to that tool then all you need is to put an M6 in, although I usually put the tool number in again just as a safety call.

Without programming that way it will seem as though HSM is doing that only because it looks further through the program than normal and knows which tool is next. With no HSM the control will still stage tools, its just that by the time the control sees a tool change in the look ahead buffer, if its more than 3 or 4 pockets to move to that tool you will still have to wait for it to get there.

The best way is just to program with staged tools, then when a M6 does occur the next tool is waiting already. Yes the SS machines have a much faster arm swing for the tool swap than normal. You still have to cut that speed down for large or overweight tools though so the high speed swap is only good for small lightweight tools, which if you load drills in collet chucks qualifys but load drills in larger drill chucks they may have to be flagged.

All the HSM option does is give the machine a much larger look ahead buffer, such that it can see changes in direction and prepare for them, thus keeping the feedrate closer to actual prgrammed through all the small moves. With out the HSM it is more like the control has to stop at each location and then proceed onto the next.

JP

070806-1428 EST USA

My guess is that with HSM if you do calculations, such as sin and cos, to determine a next location in a loop, then you would see smaller pauses if any.

For example consider machining a Cycloid of some sort.

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I was told by the Haas question man that HSM will speed up the calculation of macros which is what I think gar is referring to. They mentioned something about the HSM using additional math coprocessors for faster calculations.

Regarding the side mount tool changer I have two newish VF2s and they will bring the next tool into position even without a precall. Or at least that is what it seems to me because we took programs from a VF2 with carousel changer with no modification.

TSC = Through spindle coolant.
Something to consider heavily if all the machine is going to do is drill. Coolant fed drills don't need to be pecked and can be pushed very fast.

JP

We were looking at this, however the salesman moved away from it saying that it probably wouldn't be necessary because we are only drilling Aluminum and none of them are thick peices either.... quite a bit of it will be hollow tubing, with some custom extrusions that are not that thick and have gaps in them to allow for lubrication flow.

I think we have moved away from HSM, or we will go for the trial but I don't think we will see a lot of it's benifits.

As for the Probing package that was suggested, does this just determine when your bits are becoming worn or broken?

Sorry if these questions seem stupid, this is my first time ever dealing with CNC Machining Centres....

The probe package will set your tool lengths, and diameters if you wish. You can set it up to do tool breakage detection as well. So it will stop if your tool is broken by a predetermined length. This option also comes with the work probe as well, which will make the simple edge finder redundant, as you can pick up work corners and center of bores and bosses. Haas did a bang up job with the Quick code probing.

I can't help but think if all your going to be doing is drilling shallow holes in aluminum then your looking at the wrong machine. Perhaps a super mini or Fanuc drill mate would be wiser and allot cheaper if the part size is right.

As for through coolant, If I was going to buy a used machine the size of a VF-4 I wouldn't buy it without through coolant so you may want to consider resale along with the other numerous benefits of through coolant.

Mike