Hello,

I’m new to machining and I want to first buy a benchtop Mill and after learning the basics I will then look into benchtop CNC mill.

What I’m wondering is what do you all recommend for a benchtop mill?

I’m looking at getting a Sieg X2. I’m wondering what Sieg X2 is best from the following or are they all the same Sieg X2 mills just branded under a different name and paint color?

http://www.harborfreight.com/cpi/ctaf/Displayitem.taf?itemnumber=44991
http://www.grizzly.com/products/G8689
http://www.micromark.com

My other options I’m looking at besides a Sieg X2 listed below. Would anybody recommend one of these mills over the Sieg X2?

http://www.taigtools.com
http://www.sherline.com
http://www.emachinetool.com/new/catalog/vertical.cfm?ProductID=719

Another mill I should consider besides a Sieg X2?

Thanks again,

Rw0320

Depends on if you like red or green! :) The X2's are all made by Sieg and the only real difference is the the Micro Mark comes with 0.050/turn screws, and the others come with 1/16"/turn screws. (Of course you can get a conversion kit to change from 1/16"/turn to 0.050"/turn.) If you're going to use it manual, then the Micro Mark might be a little easier out of the box. However if you're going to convert to CNC then you will be pulling those screws out and replacing them with ball screws so get the cheap one. HF sometimes has some great deals. When I got mine, it was on sale and I had a 20% off coupon, so keep your eyes open. They also usually carry them in the stores, so if you can pick it up then you save on the shipping as well. Of course, if you live close to Grizzly and get in on their tent sale, then that may be a better deal.

Almost forgot, the HF uses an R8 spindle, while the other two use MT3. Might make a difference if you have (or are planning on getting) another machine to have common tooling. (My Industrial Hobbies mill uses R8, so I got the HF mill to save buying two sets of collets.)

In a nutshell,
X2's are cheap, downside is they require a lot of messing with and modification to get to the point most are happy with. They have a following, just be ready for more than a bit of a DIY project.
Taigs are an amazing value. If thier size and travel isn't a limitation, they are reliable, rigid, durable and work right out of the box. They aren't as cheap to start, but you also don't have to modify them to have a good machine and they often work out cheaper in the end because of it. Best bang-for-the-buck out there in small machines.
Sherlines are not rigid at all. Most consider them toys, as they are nicely made but not that capable. Mainly of great value for modelers and artists not cutting heavy stuff, but not a machinists machine by any stretch.
Proxxons are just cool little toys all by themselves, but not even in the same category as the rest. Cheap, reliable, cute, and fun little educational toys, if Playskool made a CNC machine it would look like the MF70. When he's old enough to use a computer I'll probably get one for my son. They do have a minor following for plastic modelers, wax cutting, and drilling circuit boards and the like. For intermittent use for those not needing a true mill they work well.

@tai42 - I never thought to see if there was a HF was close by. We don’t have one in town, only a Northern tool, but there are two HF about 30 miles from me. Do you know where one could get one of those 20% off coupons? ;)

I do plan on going to CNC down the road and I’ve read then the R8 spindle and 1/16” turn is preferred so I guess the Micro Mark and Grizzly are out.

@Stepper Monkey – Can you tell me more about how the X2’s require a lot of messing and modification? I’m not sure if I want to be messing and modifying my first mill. I would rather have it work right out of the box.

Good to know that Sherlines are not rigid as I mostly want to be machining metals, so I guess that means the Sherlines are out. I’m really not considering the Proxxon now. I first thought I would start with a Proxxon and then buy a new mill, but with an X2 only costing a $200 more I might as well go with that first instead.

So I guess I’m down to a Taig or X2.



I was wondering what anyone else thinks of these mills I came across in my research?

Rong Fu,

http://www.harborfreight.com/cpi/ctaf/displayitem.taf?Itemnumber=33686

X3,

http://www.harborfreight.com/cpi/ctaf/displayitem.taf?Itemnumber=93885

or one of those 3 in 1 machines instead of just a mill?

http://www.harborfreight.com/cpi/ctaf/displayitem.taf?Itemnumber=44142

Thanks again,

Rw0320

i would'nt bother with the 3in1 things x2/x3 seem to be the most popular
at the moment i've got an x1 and a x3
the x1 was my starter and after cnc'ing in it still gets a lot of use not a bad
little machine and theres many mods detailed on various posts on here
the x3 does most stuff i need at the moment and its an adequate mill
all the seig machines require the same "messing", also detailed on here,general
stripdown and clean up but it helps familiarise you with the mill
whatever you buy in 6 months you'll be looking for a bigger faster one
mike

I have an X2 that I have modified and messed around with a lot. All I would recomend doing is to lap the ways on it. This takes a couple hours, but it requires that you take the whole mill apart (you should do this no matter what to clean of the protective goo). It's basicly just sanding down the ways so that they are parallel with each other. I also got rid of the Z axis (pinion and rack) because of lack of precision. You should also get a belt drive for it, as it's quite noisy and you will end up breaking some gears. This was the first modification I did to mine.

But if you can spend some time on it, then you will end up with a great mill. I can take 2mm deep 10mm wide cuts in aluminum at 120mm/min without chattering. And thats without cooling.

I have never used a taig, so I can't comment on that.

I too am looking into getting an X3 now, but I don't have enough space. I need more travel and power.

Minor gloat here, but i'm expecting my Syil America X3 sometime this week!!!

YAY!!!! I discovered the hard way the CNCing a Sherline is a waste of time, hence the upgrade!

Wade

To get the 20% off coupon, you need to sign up with HF to get their fliers. They don't come out very often though, but when they do that is where they are found. You just cut it out and bring it down to the store. Also, if they have them on sale, and don't have any in stock make sure you get a rain-check so that you can come back and get it for the sale price.

I don't agree with the statement that they take a lot of modification either. They are a manual mill, and if you want to run it CNC then you will need to obviously modify it to do so. I guess in that respect compared to an "out-of-the-box" CNC mill they require a lot of modification. However, I used mine as a manual mill for some time before I got my IH mill. I just cleaned and trammed it and was able to make small parts with a thousandth of an inch accuracy without any problem. And even for converting it to CNC, you can get essentially "bolt-on" kits to do the job.

the x2 and 3's are nice bang for the buck machines espesially if your learning.

For the learning experience only i would recommend the x2 for its also a "light weight"machine meaning you can easily move ,repair/maintenance it all alone without any other tools and cranes.

about messing around with it i would say you should take it apart when you get it to clean any protective gunk and sand were it does not belong but never sand ,lap or whatever you call it the ways cause the last time i checked the ways of the Xmachines were also hand scraped and maybe not to the most amazing level but i´m sure they used the right tools to get it better then any1 without can.

I´ve never seen a taig in my life.But since the pricediff. and i haven´t been able to discover any features the SIEG´s lack i wouldn´t recommend it since you´ll probably have to take it apart to remove the protective gunk anyway.

just replace the plastice drivegears on the X rightaway ...PLS.

good luck with your choice

just replace the plastice drivegears on the X rightaway ...PLS.

Good point. I never broke mine, but I hear it is very easy to do. A better option (especially if you value your hearing) is to use the belt drive conversion. (http://www.littlemachineshop.com/products/product_view.php?ProductID=2560&category=879658189) (It also increases your speed range.)

The X2 is a good little mill. It does have a small work area (8x4) compared to the Taig or X3. But it is cheaper than both. The Taig is nice for light duty work and has a work area up to 12x6, but has a small tooling capacity. It would be easier to convert the Z axis to cnc than the X2. If you get the X2 definitely get the R8 head. You'll have more options for tooling with the R8 with capacity up .875 in.
For manual milling, the X2's rack and pinion makes moving the Z axis easier too.
The travel on the X2 can be increased a bit without too much messing either.
All mills have some drawbacks, it just depends on what you want to make with it.
Taig=lighter duty,good work area,limited tooling
X2=heavier duty,limited work area, greater tooling capacity, cheaper, lots more spare parts available and cnc conversions galore for inspiration.
Good Luck

Hoss,

I have a 1" R-8 toolholder and a 1.25" R-8 Toolholder. I've never used them but they are available.

Alan

We have them at work too similar to this.
http://www.wttool.com/product-exec/product_id/12720/nm/R8_End_Mill_Holders
I should have said R8 collets up to .875in.
Don't think the X2 could handle cutting with an endmill with a 1.5 in shank certainly but it does have a greater capacity than a Taig is all i'm saying.
If I had the money, I'd have a Taig upstairs in the lab for convenience at only 60 lbs,
A manual Bridgeport mill for HD jobs and the X2CNC for in between. Someday.

If you are handy with this type of work, and I am sure you will sooner or later after getting the mill, you will find that the X2 has a lot of potential in terms of creating a work envelope triple of what it is now. I suggest getting the X2 mill. You will have to mess around with the mill which ever one you buy. Its a learning process and you will learn it. Just a matter of time. Good luck.

I wish I had found this site sooner. OY!

I just ordered this (http://www.microproto.com/MMDSLS.htm) with the 4 axis option and the MeshCAM software

This will be my first CNC Mill (first mill of any type actually). While I have a ton of experience in 3D design, I have never actually taken it from computer to reality. Talk about being a neophyte and feeling a bit intimidated.

This mill is large enough to handle what I will be making, but is it a good mill?

I wish I had found this site sooner. OY!

I just ordered this (http://www.microproto.com/MMDSLS.htm) with the 4 axis option and the MeshCAM software

This will be my first CNC Mill (first mill of any type actually). While I have a ton of experience in 3D design, I have never actually taken it from computer to reality. Talk about being a neophyte and feeling a bit intimidated.

This mill is large enough to handle what I will be making, but is it a good mill?

From my reading up, it sounds like a good mill. I considered this mill because one of the things I want to do is jewelry waxes and other forums I've been on this mill is used for that a lot.

I'm going start with and go with a sieg x2 because although I want to do jewelry waxes, my main focus will be milling metals and the Taig seems to be more on the light duty side compared to a sieg x2.

I have to ask you, what do you like to use for your 3d software?

I’m not sure what I want to use and have only used autocad, but my instructor said that autocads 3d is very limited.

My main choice right now is Rhino.

I wish I had found this site sooner. OY!

I just ordered this (http://www.microproto.com/MMDSLS.htm) with the 4 axis option and the MeshCAM software

This will be my first CNC Mill (first mill of any type actually). While I have a ton of experience in 3D design, I have never actually taken it from computer to reality. Talk about being a neophyte and feeling a bit intimidated.

This mill is large enough to handle what I will be making, but is it a good mill?



That is actually Taig mill.

If I am correct:I am not sure exactly how the business relationship works but this is basically a sister company to Taig.


Taig makes the mill and microproto does the CNC portion.


I have a Taig with a CNC setup from anothr MFG.


I have not had any real problems with the mill so far. I do small work on soft materials. It needed some adjustment out of the box but no repair.

I will be working with aluminum (6061) primarily, but will also work with some plastics and woods. The largest part will be about 4"Wx 4"L x 1"H with some intricate cuts. It will require milling on both sides.

You are right about the relationship. It is a Taig with a CNC servo system added.

I am really out of my element here, but to get the parts I want made I was getting quotes in the $20K range for a dozen prototypes. I figure the investment in this mill would save me a bundle in prototyping.

I just have to learn how to setup it, operate it, and maintain it. OY! Any good books on this? Or is it one of those things you just have to stumble around and figure out?

I will be working with aluminum (6061) primarily, but will also work with some plastics and woods. The largest part will be about 4"Wx 4"L x 1"H with some intricate cuts. It will require milling on both sides.

You are right about the relationship. It is a Taig with a CNC servo system added.

I am really out of my element here, but to get the parts I want made I was getting quotes in the $20K range for a dozen prototypes. I figure the investment in this mill would save me a bundle in prototyping.

I just have to learn how to setup it, operate it, and maintain it. OY! Any good books on this? Or is it one of those things you just have to stumble around and figure out?



I have a book I got from IM services called easy cnc. It giveas a quick overview of how cnc, gcod and cad design work.

It was ok but very basic. I think there is talks of making a more advanced one. It covered a large sectioon on CAD and design software which I really did not need and it for the most part covered very basic 2 and 2.5 D toolpath generation. While it was insightful on how the basics of CNC and Gcode work. I think the information was nothing that couldnt be discovered through experimentation or on the internet just that having it explained sped the process up.


I too would like to find a book that would really explain everything beginning to advanced. Sort of a CNC bible.

From what the site says it is a stepper system and not a servo system

From what the site says it is a stepper system and not a servo system

I believe that their 3000 system uses stepper motors fitted with encoders to provide feedback.

EM

From my reading up, it sounds like a good mill. I considered this mill because one of the things I want to do is jewelry waxes and other forums I've been on this mill is used for that a lot.

I'm going start with and go with a sieg x2 because although I want to do jewelry waxes, my main focus will be milling metals and the Taig seems to be more on the light duty side compared to a sieg x2.

I have to ask you, what do you like to use for your 3d software?

I’m not sure what I want to use and have only used autocad, but my instructor said that autocads 3d is very limited.

My main choice right now is Rhino.I use several 3D packages. I have SketchUp, Maya, 3D Studio, and AutoCad. It all depends on what I am doing as to what tool or tools I will use.

I have not read, or even heard of, the Sieg X2, and am concerned I have really screwed the pooch on buying the mill I bought. Noob mistakes. Costly for sure.

I have so much to learn and a short time to absorb it all.

I believe that their 3000 system uses stepper motors fitted with encoders to provide feedback.

EMThat is true. Sort of a pseudo-servo system. A hybrid, as it were. When I was searching the Internet I could not find a true servo based mill for less than double the cost of the Microproto.

That does not mean there is not one out there. I soooo suck at searching for things on the Internet. If I understand cirrectly, I could later on switch out the motors and controls for servos.

Matter of fact there seems to be a lot of things available already for updating the mill. Ball screws and servos seem to be the big things I keep reading about upgrading the Taig.

Ok, bottomline it for me guys. I know I could spend a lot more and get a better mill, but for doing small run prototyping in aluminum (maybe copper as well), will this mill hold up? Or is it constantly going to need attention? Are things going to break a lot? Will it hold alignment? Will it actually mill without warbling all over the place (again, I have no idea what the technical terms are, but I am talking about the frame being solid enough)?

Appreciate any and all feedback. Good, bad or otherwise. I have a long road in front of me and I need to get to the end as soon as possible.

On milling, is it best to do test runs wth wood? If so, what kind of wood would be suitable? Other material?

I have a ton of general milling questions. Maybe I should start a thread. I wish I could this more real time. Are all posts put in a moderator queue, or is this only a newbie thing?

Typically the best thing is to do test runs with wax. Jewelers or machinist wax (i think its esentially the same)


It is good to practice on and learn the basics of setup and how things work. It is very forgiving and tough to do damage with. However when you move to metal u need to learn some new ruled about cutting depths, feedrates and such.

I am no expert but when I started out I practiced on wax until I felt comfortable. When I finally moved to metal I broke alot of bits until I realised that I was cutting too deep each pass even though I was going at a slow feedrate. I sped up the feed rate and take very shallow cuts now and things are much better.

I had the mill ploughing through the material which was fine on wax but did not remove material fast enough for metal. By taking shallow cuts there is far less clogging and load on the cutter.


As far as the machine being rugged or stable enough it is a relative term.

I would not call it a large production machine nor something you want to mount an engine block to. Good for prototyping and small run stuff.


really depends on what you are making I guess

I do jewelry and small craftware and I find it fine. It is not a small sherline but it is not a monster.


As far as accuracy it is what it is. I have not had any issues but it is a leadscre design and not a ballscrew so at some point I will have to deal with backlas Im sure.



I added supports to my column to stiffen things up and it also acts as a tramming device. There is a recent theread with pics. I will attach some if you want

.

Skuzzy,

Don't worry, the Taig's a nice mill, it'll be fine for AL and copper. Run it as it comes and you'll learn a lot, don't worry about what to upgrade till you get some stuff cut and things figured out. It's got a good resale too, so if you decide to change later it won't hurt too much.

Wax is good to start with, jewelers/machinist wax is basically the same. Jewelers comes in more hardnesses, thicknesses and costs a bit more.

Butterboard, a cast resin, is good too, a little closer to cutting metal, but still real soft.

Slow the feedrates and depth of cut down for AL, give it some lube/cutting fluid and go to town. I dunno about copper, it's probably pretty gummy, my guess would be plenty of coolant and maybe TN coated tools?

Ok,..appreciate the information. I admit to being a bit intimidated by this whole process. I am going to start with the MeshCAM software for converting my DXF files to G-Code.

I hope that works out.

Where is a good source for cheap wax to use? Why wax? Is it that it will not wear the bits and does not require cooling? Just guessing..

EDIT: I am going with a flood cooling system. I have an air compressor, but from what I have been able to read, it can take many hours for a mill to complete a task. I just do not want to wear out my compressor. Started working on the enclosure this weekend.

Wax for alot of reasons:

1) cheap
2) Foregiving: Much harded to break a tool or overload the machine, wear out the bits, etc. etc.
3) Yes it is cooler and requires no lubricant(self lubricating not that it really needs it because it chips away so easily)
4) Reusable. I have made ingots out of many things to melt down(pan on the stove) and recycle the wax.


An FYI meshcam does not support DXF/DWG file formats

I have two softwares:

1) MeshCAM-for STL(3D contour files) and converting bitmap files
2) DeskCNC-for STL(3D contour files) and DXF/DWG to generate 2-2.5D toolpaths


Buth softwares offer thier own distinct capabilities and the one they cross over on(STL) they each offer thier own advantages.

Meshcam has more control for 3D contouriing and offers the option for flip milling and 4axis by indexing multiple 3D cut files from a specified number of angles around the A axis.

DekCNC offers an actual 4th axis although it is not full 4 axis interpolation in which all 4 move simultaniously.

This is just what I use. You should do some investigation as to what will work for you. There are many softwares out there in addition to the ones I mentioned.

I found these two sites useful when starting out. They both come from the perspective of someone starting out with no formal training and accumulating knowledge and learning as they go.


http://www.tabletopmachinewiki.com/wiki/CAD/CAM_Jewelry_Primer


http://www.cuttingedgecnc.com/index.htm

Thanks for the links! Great information! I am still trying to wrap my brain around the whole maching process.

According to MeshCAM's site it does support both DXF and STL formats.

Don't worry about the Taig. You made a good choice. People tend to think of anything other than a chinese mill as being lightweight, I'd say it can be the opposite. A Taig is scary rigid for its small size, and will be cutting for much longer with much less maintenance and adjustment than an X2. I don't know of anyone who uses X2's for production environments, they don't hold up well enough, but there are several companies running two dozen or more Taigs daily now for years with no complaints so far.
That isn't to say you can't get an X2 up to snuff too, but it is telling that the longest thread on here (300+ posts and counting) is titled "X2 nearly finished" or something of the sort....

You are right, I just looked, it does support DXF but only 3-D files.

I tried opening a 2D file and it gave an error message that there were no polygons and to make sure it was created with 3D faces.


I make my 3D files with Solid Works and save as STL. So I dont really used a 3D DXF format.

When doing 2d work I use 2D DXF on DeskCNC

The DXF's I will be creating are 3D files using polys. It is interesting to note that MeshCAM's DXF support is limited to polygon based drawings.

I wish I could afford Solid Works. Very nice package.

I'll probably pick up DeskCNC as well though. Thanks for the feedback Stepper Monkey. Basically, I got lucky then picking the mill I picked. Phew.

The DXF's I will be creating are 3D files using polys. It is interesting to note that MeshCAM's DXF support is limited to polygon based drawings.

I wish I could afford Solid Works. Very nice package.

I'll probably pick up DeskCNC as well though. Thanks for the feedback Stepper Monkey. Basically, I got lucky then picking the mill I picked. Phew.

I'm using MeshCAM as well, but so far, most of the stuff I've cut has been 2.5D, with G-code generated in SheetCAM www.sheetcam.com , which is IMHO well worth a look.

Solid Works is a bit past my budget too, but I'm pretty happy with VariCAD www.varicad.com - especially the ability to insert standard bolts etc from their parts library, and have them cut the corresponding holes in the parts :)

That isn't to say you can't get an X2 up to snuff too, but it is telling that the longest thread on here (300+ posts and counting) is titled "X2 nearly finished" or something of the sort....

You apparently haven't bothered to read the most popular post in the benchtop mill forum.
The X2 was finished months ago and most of what has been discussed is modifications, improvements and attachments for it. As well as software, electronics, tooling, and deisgn. Tons of information is provided including FREE cad drawings to help the Do-It-Yourselfer build their own X2 CNC. Also where to buy the parts to construct it and how to put it all together.
It is there to provide useful information for the X2 owner not to berate other types of mills that some elitist thinks is better than others.
Thanks for your interest, Hoss

Thanks digits. Good information! I'll take a look at thos links. This is great stuff folks. Really appreciate the help.

I forgot that mention of any other kind of machine in a positive light is blasphemy here in the Church of the X Mill, sorry.

And you are right, I lost track of that X2 thread a month or two ago - after the machine in question hit better than 85%+ of it's stock parts replaced with custom parts I figured it wasn't really an X2 anymore. Great custom machine, the engineering and ingenuity on it are commendable. It's a great custom machine, just not an X2. It may have a few original X2 parts if you look hard enough, but using it an as example of X2 greatness against other machines in stock form is a little misleading. Then again, no one can make comparisons using stock X2's as they are inadequate at best for any task.

To be fair, there really is no comparing apples to apples, as there are none of the "other" machines out there as heavily modified. Perhaps that is because they tend to work as advertised more or less right out of the box, which, as strange as it sounds, some people actually prefer. Elitists, I think you call them.

I really did not mean for this to turn into a a comparison. I had already bought the mill. I just wanted to know if it was a good buy or a bad one.

Sounds like I did ok, in spite of my ignorance.

Seems to me the biggest challenge I am going to have is making fixtures to hold the parts I need to machine as they two of the three are full 3D designs. It will be a challenge.

I am sure I will have a lot of questions once the mill arrives. Not one for re-inventing the wheel.

Then again, no one can make comparisons using stock X2's as they are inadequate at best for any task.


This is not, strictly speaking, correct. I have used an X-2 (Grizzly) for a number of years. It has had 4 "modifications":

1. a general cleaning and adjusting
2. replacement of the original drawbar/collets/chuck and chuck adapter with LMS parts
3. belt drive conversion
4. cheap 3 axis DRO

I'm not trying to work to a few 1/10s. This set-up works for my purposes so long as I keep the cutting forces modest and lock down the two axes that are not moving at any given time. (I also use a very heavy three inch vise that adds significant mass and damping to the operation. The DROs make it very convenient to drill sets of holes that must have specified relationships.

I have read all of the relevant posts that I can find here and have purchased two sets of plans for CNC conversion of the X-2. In the end, my decision has been to add a second machine for two reasons:

1. Correcting some of the inherent issues in the X-2 (mostly reflecting, I assume, cost decisions made by Seig and/or their vendors) would require a significant investment in time and $, and
2. The unit, in its current manual form, is very convenient for simple and/or one-off tasks.

The Taig* unit is my choice for the basis of a CNC machine. It is important to recognize that a basic Taig system sells for about 2X the price of the bare X-2. (One can only speculate on, and perhaps wish for, what Seig might do if the price point for the X-2 were $1000 rather than $500!)

EM

*Oddly enough, the Taig shares one of the design flaws that I deplore in the X-2 - the single bolt column fixing.

SNIP

The Taig* unit is my choice for the basis of a CNC machine. It is important to recognize that a basic Taig system sells for about 2X the price of the bare X-2. (One can only speculate on, and perhaps wish for, what Seig might do if the price point for the X-2 were $1000 rather than $500!)

EM

*Oddly enough, the Taig shares one of the design flaws that I deplore in the X-2 - the single bolt column fixing.

Pretorien,

They do have that price point it's the X-3, LOL. Shared design flaw, well I'd like a Porsche, but my F-150 will do, they both have internal combustion motors (Shared design flaws).

Anyway back to the subject.

It's all about what "YOU" want to do and how much money "YOU" have to throw at any problem. The rest is just opinion and like minds tend to agree.

I have an X-2, I looked at the Taig and the Sherline, etc. For "MY" money and "MY" needs it fit the bill. If the other fit "YOUR" needs go for it.

Smitty

*Oddly enough, the Taig shares one of the design flaws that I deplore in the X-2 - the single bolt column fixing.



The one nut to lock the column was my only complaint as well. This is what I did to fix that. It also acts a s a tramming fixture. Very fast and accurate and holds the position stable.


I will add a link to another thread with more pics

*Oddly enough, the Taig shares one of the design flaws that I deplore in the X-2 - the single bolt column fixing.

I had the same issue with the Taig column =. Here is a link to another thread with what I did to solve it. Also acts as a tramming fixture. Very fast accurate and stable. Plus it stiffens the whole column structure as well as holding it in position

http://www.cnczone.com/forums/showthread.php?t=40422&page=2

Sorry for the double post. The second one has a link to the other thread

I forgot that mention of any other kind of machine in a positive light is blasphemy here in the Church of the X Mill, sorry.

And you are right, I lost track of that X2 thread a month or two ago - after the machine in question hit better than 85%+ of it's stock parts replaced with custom parts I figured it wasn't really an X2 anymore. Great custom machine, the engineering and ingenuity on it are commendable. It's a great custom machine, just not an X2. It may have a few original X2 parts if you look hard enough, but using it an as example of X2 greatness against other machines in stock form is a little misleading. Then again, no one can make comparisons using stock X2's as they are inadequate at best for any task.

To be fair, there really is no comparing apples to apples, as there are none of the "other" machines out there as heavily modified. Perhaps that is because they tend to work as advertised more or less right out of the box, which, as strange as it sounds, some people actually prefer. Elitists, I think you call them.

The only elitist is you sir.
I've been reading your past posts and threads you've started.
It never fails that when the subject of an X mill is brought up, you jump at the chance to slam them in some way or another.
3 of your 4 most recent threads
"please define our hobby","the bigger hammer" and "this new subforum is a mess" all contain attacks by you on these 'chinese' mills. Is 'chinese' the problem?
I also noticed you irritated more than one member in the process causing 2 of the threads to be closed by cnczone.
I never claimed the X2 to be superior to any other mill so don't try and put words in my mouth.
i've stated before that if I had the money, a Taig would be in my shop along with the X2 and others. The taigs spindle was 'inadequate' for my needs.
Each mill has pluses and minuses, but the X2 with R8 suited ME the best.
If I had purchased a taig,x1,x3 sherline, bridgeport or even Haas, I would still
have made modifications and improvements regardless of how well it worked "out of the box".
i'm not content with the status quo.
My mill is an X2, just a modified X2. A Freak. I'm taking it to the limits (and beyond)
to see what's possible with these mills. Being innovative you might say, not afraid to change what came in the box, even though it worked perfectly fine that way.
If everyone was content with the way things were, we'd all still be driving Model T's.
Have a nice day, Hoss