I am a hobbyist, not a machinist, but it seems to me that there is a major problem in the industry- the hardware on a good cnc mill or lathe can last for decades, but most all controls become obsolete and all but impossible to support within a few years. Is this right? So a shop with a machine that has been cranking out good parts for a decade craps out- What are the choices?:

+Bring in a service tech and try to bring it back to life.
+Retrofit it with new electronics.
+Park it out back and hope someone steals it.

I guess I'm asking because I have now picked up 2 machines dirt cheap that were in good mechanical shape, but had electronics that were shot and needed to be gutted. Are these the only options a shop has? What do you do in your businesses? It seems that any of these options leaves a lot of economic value to waste.

Amongst others I have a Siemens 6T(Fanuc 6T) on a 1980 W&S Universal,it`s reliable and and earns me money.I also have 1985 GE2000`s running on Churchill lathes,same again reliable and make money.I think it`s all to do with the original quality of the machine and control,you get what you pay for.If you buy cheap new don`t expect to be able to do much with it after 8-10 years.
What are you basing your assumption that controls become obsolete on?

Good point about quality. I think use and care have to go into the equation too. The machines I got were obviously filthy and poorly maintained, and I don't mean from sitting after they were parked.

If you can get parts/support and the software interface works well than I would agree that it is not obsolete.

I guess I'm asking because I have now picked up 2 machines dirt cheap that were in good mechanical shape, but had electronics that were shot and needed to be gutted. .

I have been to many auctions where the Manual machines that have been far older than the CNC ones and their price has exceeded the CNC, sometimes by quite a margin, the CNC 'age' faster I guess. This is usually because a CNC probabally gets a harder work out over its life span, and the controls age faster.
Often there are bargains to be had, but then the problem is the freight is almost as much as the machine itself.
Al.

Deleted.

"I notice the same thing Al and I think it is more because most people do not want to understand the concept of CNC machines and it overloads the brain. I don't know how many older guys I have talked to that insist that manual "machines are the may to go". All because they would not have a clue how to tool up and program a part correctly. I see those engine lathes pulling big bucks and for what? Sheesh, no ball screws, no reversal comp, hell, I would get lost just trying to make an accurate part on something like that".

I wish I had ten bucks for everytime I`ve heard that,usually from people who could not switch a manual machine on.Do you seriously believe that the old timer puts a piece of metal in a chuck or a vice and wonders how he is going to make the part?No,he`s looked at the drawing and mentally decided on the order of operations,the tools he`s going to use and the feeds and speeds he`s running at.
If you need proof look at the questions on the forums,you will never see a manual turner asking what speed he should do this or that at.No,it is the newbies and the button pushers who ask these questions.
There will always be work for centre lathe turners not quite as much for millers.There are very few cnc lathes with four jaw chucks but there are plenty jobs that won`t go in a three jaw or a collet.
I have manual and cnc machines and the cnc machines make the most money but if I could find skilled turners I could earn as much from manual machines.I`ve been in this business forty years and now more than ever there is a demand for apprentice trained skilled men who know and understand the basics and who don`t need a computer to help them produce an accurate part.
Rant over.
Mark.

I have been to many auctions where the Manual machines that have been far older than the CNC ones and their price has exceeded the CNC, sometimes by quite a margin, the CNC 'age' faster I guess. ....Al.

Have you checked the price and availability of decent sized of good or top quality manual machines? I think one reason that used manual machines which are probably medium size and good quality can go for higher than used CNC is that they are difficult to replace; not as many are available new any more and the ones that are can be more expensive than CNC's in some cases.

There are some CNCs that get refurbished. For example, there was a place in Oregon or Washington rebuilding Fadals for the factory. If you visit Fadal's website, you'll see they sell re-built machines with certain updates.

There are also a lot of used machine dealers who buy the older machines, strip the electrics and install a retro-fit control from Fagor, Mitsubishi, or numerous others.

Another aspect is the tax issue on old machines. Depending on how the machine has been depreciated, it might be financially better to hang on to it for a while rather than sell it and pay taxes on the recovered value. Say I buy a machine for $100K and fully depreciate that over five years. The machine might still be worth $60K so I might be subject to the tax on that $60K if I sold it.

.....Another aspect is the tax issue on old machines. Depending on how the machine has been depreciated, it might be financially better to hang on to it for a while rather than sell it and pay taxes on the recovered value. Say I buy a machine for $100K and fully depreciate that over five years. The machine might still be worth $60K so I might be subject to the tax on that $60K if I sold it.

No "might" about it; the amount by which the selling price exceeds the depriciated value is net income. In Canada it is know as Capital Cost Recapture or something like that and if you don't know about it, sell a machine and then spend all the money on a new machine you can get hit at tax time. Often the amount available for depreciation the year of purchase is reduced so you finish up having to pay tax on money you have already spent.

"I notice the same thing Al and I think it is more because most people do not want to understand the concept of CNC machines and it overloads the brain. I don't know how many older guys I have talked to that insist that manual "machines are the may to go". All because they would not have a clue how to tool up and program a part correctly. I see those engine lathes pulling big bucks and for what? Sheesh, no ball screws, no reversal comp, hell, I would get lost just trying to make an accurate part on something like that".

I wish I had ten bucks for everytime I`ve heard that,usually from people who could not switch a manual machine on.Do you seriously believe that the old timer puts a piece of metal in a chuck or a vice and wonders how he is going to make the part?No,he`s looked at the drawing and mentally decided on the order of operations,the tools he`s going to use and the feeds and speeds he`s running at.
If you need proof look at the questions on the forums,you will never see a manual turner asking what speed he should do this or that at.No,it is the newbies and the button pushers who ask these questions.
There will always be work for centre lathe turners not quite as much for millers.There are very few cnc lathes with four jaw chucks but there are plenty jobs that won`t go in a three jaw or a collet.
I have manual and cnc machines and the cnc machines make the most money but if I could find skilled turners I could earn as much from manual machines.I`ve been in this business forty years and now more than ever there is a demand for apprentice trained skilled men who know and understand the basics and who don`t need a computer to help them produce an accurate part.
Rant over.
Mark.




Did not mean to rattle your chain there. I guess in my experience, The guys I am refering to do NOT know what they are doing and it does not apply to all. I "thought" they were machinists until I asked questions like idea surface ft for say 304 stainless or something. They do not even know how to calculated surface feet and many of the manual machines I have seen have like 3-4 speeds so you just hope it is in the window. But for that matter, many button pushers I know don't know what surface feet is either.

I got to run a manual lathe before and it was an experience and like you say, I had to figure out how to even turn it on. I guess everyone has their nitch.

....and many of the manual machines I have seen have like 3-4 speeds so you just hope it is in the window....

I thought about making uncomplimentary comments about button pushers :) but I will restrain myself to saying you should find out if any shop in your area has or had Preoptive Herbert Turret lathes. Some of these had sixteen speeds and could change speed on the fly; it was possible to do facing manually with a sort-of constant surface speed. Wards were the US made equivalent but I don't think they quite matched the Herberts. Good quality manual machines were in many ways more complicated and much more expensive to make, I think, than CNC's.

Hi Geoff.
Please tell me more about the American built Wards.I`m sure thousands of ex Ward people in Birmingham,England will be interested too.:)
Mark.

No "might" about it; the amount by which the selling price exceeds the depriciated value is net income. In Canada it is know as Capital Cost Recapture or something like that and if you don't know about it, sell a machine and then spend all the money on a new machine you can get hit at tax time. Often the amount available for depreciation the year of purchase is reduced so you finish up having to pay tax on money you have already spent.

If I remember my conversation with the accountant, there is a time limit on how the re-sale is treated tax-wise here in the US. Sell too soon and it is as you described "recapturing". If sold after a certain time has past, it is treated as gross income I think. I don't remember the difference unless my CPA explains it to me repeatedly but the proceeds of the sale are treated differently.

Suffice to say that it may be financially better for a company to let a machine sit in the corner keeping the concrete from flying off into outer space than sell the machine.

Whoaaaa, never better to "let it set", Even if you have to pay taxes, it won't be as much as you sell it for. If you really are done with it, get what capitol you can out of it now, floor space is not free!

Whoaaaa, never better to "let it set", Even if you have to pay taxes, it won't be as much as you sell it for. If you really are done with it, get what capitol you can out of it now, floor space is not free!
Back to the original question...Many times, if you figure in the higher out put, accuracy and reliability of a new machine, it makes sense to replace junk or even perfectly sound machines. I worked in one shop where we had a 25+ y/o VTL that made parts just fine. When it did break down, which really wasn't very often, it was down for awhile searching for parts. Finally, it was replaced with a new machine which just the increase in production paid for in under a year. As high speed machining becomes more prevelant and accurate, there will not be room in a production shop for inefficient machines.

BTW, I have proven, more than once' I can make most parts quicker and more accurately in a CNC, using it manually or in MDI, than on a manual machine. Not saying there is no longer a place for manual machines, but I believe this is why they are getting harder to buy!

Finally, the company I work for manufactures, and remanufactures CNC machines. Most of the time, if it has solid mechanicals a new control can be retro-fit. However, the money spent to do this, couplled with the reduced production the machine will put out, usually makes that an unwise decisiion for a production enviroment!

Most large companies either send them to the auction block or scrap them. I know of one company that scraps Fadals after 9 years! I cant even get a piece of tin out of them however.

Hi Geoff.
Please tell me more about the American built Wards.I`m sure thousands of ex Ward people in Birmingham,England will be interested too.:)
Mark.

You are correct...help, which make is it that I am thinking of?????

American built capstan/turret lathes.
Warner & Swasey,Lodge & Shipley?,Jones & Lamson,Gisholt(also built in England),Hardinge and loads more that I can`t remember at the moment.
Mark.

American built capstan/turret lathes.
Warner & Swasey,Lodge & Shipley?,Jones & Lamson,Gisholt(also built in England),Hardinge and loads more that I can`t remember at the moment.
Mark.

Gisholt, and why I confused that with Ward I do not know.

And looking at those names prompts a question; what manufacturers of manual machines from years ago now make CNC's other than Hardinge?

It might be easier to name the manufacturers who are still in existence.But here goes from this side of the pond.

BSA Machine Tools,Colchester/Harrison,Dean Smith and Grace,Binns & Berry,Wickman,Boxford.Also Cincinnati built machines here at one time,not sure about now.And I`m struggling to think of more
There are a lot of European and Japanese cnc manufacturers who made manual machines.Deckel,Maho,Gildemeister(DMG group) and Yamazaki spring to mind.
What can you come up with?

It might be easier to name the manufacturers who are still in existence....What can you come up with?

Nothing really. I realised that despite being in the trade for a long time I have never really taken much notice of the range of machines. My apprenticeship was almost exclusively on Herberts then when I started my own business I stuck with Herberts, at least for lathes. For mills I bought the Taiwanese Excello or Bridgeport clones and they are not worth remembering. Since moving to CNC I have stuck with Haas for simplicity.

We stocked our shop with dated electrically inoperative iron with the intent of doing PC retrofits. This turned out to be a major error. Why? There seems to be a void wherein later model servo driven iron isn't so readily adaptable to a PC.

I got spoiled by commercial closed loop servo controls. I had some minor experiences with steppers and made a concious decision to NOT go stepper due to a number of issues that have been discussed in other threads where I've posted.

For light and medium situation BUSINESS applications, you seem to have a choice of hobby/inexpensive "project" hard/software. Or, you can move up to much more high end commercial kits (IE: Camsoft, Ajax, Anilam, etc). Something in the "intermediate price range" doesn't seem to be there.

$500 to $1000 hobby kits yes,
$10K to $15K commmercial retros no problem,
$2k-5K for amps and PC w/closed loop plug/play software, no dice.

You either have a choice of an integrator based project - out of my price range due to business model - or lower dollar, adequate but lacking stepper driven devices. Do they work, yes. Are they adequate for some business work? Not in our situation, howeer.

I think that there still is a viable niche for decidedly not low end CNC hardware. Examples can be cited upon request. Although two PROVEN examples were/are out there and still functioning, sadly there are probably legal and/or political "issues" which preclude the ideas from being used in the "aftermarket" or at least adapted to the DIY home and small shop market.

It is too bad as these concepts would work and not be held captive to/by everchanging computers, O/S's and the Wintel gods.

Attached is what I do with most of the stuff my customers want removed.

Occasionally they have a piece that I have a use for or can re-sell easily.

I have seen large CNC chuckers (25"ish swing) being bought at auctions by scrap jockeys because they are selling for way less than they are worth in scrap metal.

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