Hi,

I am new to CNC and machining. My current profession is a CAD technician. Anyway on to my question.

Does anyone here have any experience with the TL511DN 4-axis CNC mill? I first saw one listed on eBay.com while looking for a cnc mill. I had been concidering getting one of the 4-axis taig mills that are already cnc'ed but then I came accross this mill and thought it would probably be better; but, since I have no experience with mills I thought I would ask you guys opinions.

The guy/ company that sells these mills just changed over to a new model TL512 which has ball screws on all 3 axises. Which is what I am looking at getting.

This is an old listing for one of the TL511DN Mills
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=12584&item=220117057709

4-Axis CNC Mill Tabletop Precision New Complete
Closed loop servo, cast iron. For serious work. Item number: 220117057709
Description
CNC, Vertical
Highest Spindle Speed (RPM): 5001 - 7500
Control Type:
Closed loop servo
Serial Number: 04232007
4-Axis Table Tabletop CNC Mill with Closed Loop DSP Servo Control.
Model TL511DN.
This mill is made in New Jersey.
DN stands for Double Nut. This mill has mechanical backlash compensation on all 3 axes
Advantages over competition:
Consider all this before you buy any other machine. After all, you will get what you paid for.
1. Mach 3 Ready. The Mach 3, http://www.machsupport.com/, configuration file is included with the mill. Copy it into Mach 3 directory and you are ready to go.
2. Closed loop servo control on all axes. Each axis is equipped with DC servomotor with encoder. When a computer calls for a step, the motor makes a step and the motor’s encoder verifies that the step was made. This way the machine will not loose steps.
Stepper motor controller doesn’t know whether the step was made and you may loose at least one or two (more likely quite a few) steps during your machining. When it happens your part will not be the same as you design it.
3. The DSP Servo Controller incorporates an advance PID motion control algorithm and has a built-in motor’s over-current protection. This feature makes a limit switches unnecessary. The controller will shut of all the motors if even one carriage hits any obstacles or reaches the corresponding end of motion. The controller parameters are tuned to the corresponding motor.
4. Reversible spindle rotation. You will appreciate a reversible spindle rotation feature when you will thread holes. It is also handy when you are using fly cutters and boring heads.
5. Infinitely variable spindle RPM control. You can vary the spindle RPM on our mill from almost 0 to the full speed without loosing torque on low RPM. It is good for threading, temperature sensitive plastic machining and very hard steels, such as “chrome-molly” or 400 series stainless steel.
A few gear or pulley reduction stages are not enough for all machining strategies.
6. Our mill can be used as a manual drill press. This with the spindle reversible feature will allow you to thread holes.
7. The DSP servo controller allows a cooling pump to be turn on and off under the software control. Just plug your pump into controller receptacle on the front panel. The liquid cooling is essential not only to prolong a cutting tool life but also to eliminate dust when machining plastic, fiberglass and various toxic bronzes. This is an important health issue.
8. We include a full set of collets from 1/8” to 1/2” in diameter.
9. The 4-th axis is a cast iron 4” Dia. Rotary table suitable for heavy machining. This is not an aluminum gimmick for light plastic or jewelry work it is a real thing.
10.Our machine is made out of cast iron. It is heavy and it is made the same way as a big Bridgeport and others. You cannot machine heavy parts on a light aluminum table. The more our mill works the smoother the carriage motion become; just like a car after a few thousand miles. Hard plated aluminum guides will eventually wear down to the soft aluminum.
11.Our mill can be used as a manual mill. We have all cranks in place. It may be handy for a setup or just to do a simple machining or drilling.
Features
· Simultaneous 4-axes contouring.
· All 3-axes utilize ”double nut” backlash compensation.
The double nut mechanical backlash compensation may not eliminate the backlash completely.
However, it will allow you to narrow it down to and will allow for a lead screw wear adjustment.
· Two-stage belt drive allows for a maximum of 6000-RPM Spindle Speed.
· Lead screws on every axis have a pair of thrust bearings.
· 4-Axes DSP servo controller has built-in power supply.
· Each Servomotor’s cable plugs directly into servo controller. No wiring is necessary.
· Servos are coupled to their lead screws with 1:6 ratio timing belt transmissions to maximize torque.
· 4-Axes Servo controller accepts virtually any step/direction software such as Mach3
(Mach3 configuration file is included) and connects to a computer parallel port.
The Mach3 software is highly recommended and can be obtained from www.artofcnc.ca
· Spindle and a cooling pump can be plugged in directly into controller’s receptacles.
Both can be switched on and off under software control.
· 4” diameter rotary table is included and can be mounted vertically or horizontally.
Included with the mill:
· 4-Axes DSP servo controller
· 4” Dia. cast iron rotary table with DC servo motor with encoder
· Drill chuck and set of wrenches.
· Set of MT2 collets from 1/8” to ½”
· Cooling hose with 3 nozzles.
· Power and printer port cables.
· Manual
· CD with DOS software, Mach3 setup, and a Mastercam post.
Specifications:
Spindle Motor
120 V, 1/5 HP
Spindle Speed
100 - 6000 RPM,
Electronic Speed Control
Two Stage Spindle Belt Drive
100 – 2500 RPM and 100 – 6000 RPM
Spindle Rotation
CW and CCW
Milling Capacity
¾ Face Mill on steel
Maximum X Travel
12”
Maximum Y Travel
6”
Maximum Z Travel
8"
X/Y table slot
½”
X/Y lead screw
½”-20
Swing
11”
X/Y Dial Resolution
0.0005”
Table Size
18 5/8” x 6”
Base Size
10 1/8” x 9 3/8”
Spindle taper
MT2
Weight
170 Lb.
Shipping weights
200 Lb.
The knob sets the Spindle RPM electronically.
The Spindle output is controlled by M3 (on) and M5 (off)
The Aux output (for cooling) is controlled by M8 (on) and M9 (off)
Accuracy and Repeatability:
The mill is very accurate. Guides are hand honed to tight tolerance. The accuracy of your part, however, will depend upon your cutting parameters and cutting strategy. Most machines on the market can achieve great motion repeatability, but cannot make accurate parts. The reason is poor machine rigidity. Our machine is made out of cast iron. It is heavy and rigid and therefore can produce more accurate parts compare to aluminum machines.

You cannot buy a better tabletop mill!
The mill is shipped in two crates

UPS Ground
Shipping and Handling To Service
US $195.00 United States UPS Ground


Sorry about making it such a long post.

Thanks,

Frank

Could I get an X3 (from Grizzly or Harbor Freight) and convert it myself for $2500? Using quality parts of course...not the cheapest. And if I could would I be better served?

I would spend more time comparing mills. First you have to decide what you want to do with it. I think you were on the right track with the Taig.

Have you ever used a Taig?

One thing that I am going to be milling is a part out of a piece of about 5"x2"x8" 7075-T6 Aluminum.
I would also like to be able to do a little bit of milling with 4041 Pre-Hardened Steel.

The reasons that I am considering this mill over the Taig are that it is more substantial (heavier and probably more rigid). I also liked the fact that it has servos over steppers; but, I'm sure that that is really not a big deal. I guess the main thing was that it appeared to be more heavy duty than the Taig. But, since I have no experience with either I am asking here.

Thanks for the suggestion.

Could I get an X3 (from Grizzly or Harbor Freight) and convert it myself for $2500? Using quality parts of course...not the cheapest. And if I could would I be better served?

No. And if you value your time, it would cost much more. I don't have a breakdown, but you will need motors, motor drivers, PC interface [commonly called the "breakout board"], motor power supply, motor mounts, software, and a PC. Some of have extended the base, and modified the spindle drive, and so on. I suppose their is no end to what you can do. The number of off the shelf kits seems to be growing.

You will have to decide what accuracy you can live with. You will pay more for better parts, servo motor over stepper, ball screw over lead screw. Already I would like to have servo motor, and I haven't finished the stepper CNC conversion.

I have once read that the dovetails on an X2 table were out of parallel by 0.015" from end to end. I bet that any of the X's are a crap shoot when it comes to holding down tight manufacturing tolerances. I still have to check my table for that.

Last but not least, the used equipment market is at its lowest. It's the riggers who are making money putting these machines into garages and basements, not the end user.

x1 conversion like that ebay machine is not any better than taig. I have a taig and x2, and I prefer the taig for lighter cuts. X3 is better than both by far. I have it as well now. for milling, it really depends upon how much you are cutting. if you use small bits, taig does fine with mild steel and aluminum. hardened steel is more bit/cooling system dependent. you will have to go slow on that. (and this is true for x1 and taig) x2 does have bigger bit capacity and power, even though taig is not bad with 1/4hp motor.

you can probably setup an x3 for about 2500, if you use the stock screws. cncfusion kit is fairly cheap without the ballscrews. I am in the process of setting up the deluxe kit. I like the rigidity of x3.

the servo motor on that x1 cnc also looks cheap.

Have you ever used a Taig?

One thing that I am going to be milling is a part out of a piece of about 5"x2"x8" 7075-T6 Aluminum.
I would also like to be able to do a little bit of milling with 4041 Pre-Hardened Steel.

The reasons that I am considering this mill over the Taig are that it is more substantial (heavier and probably more rigid). I also liked the fact that it has servos over steppers; but, I'm sure that that is really not a big deal. I guess the main thing was that it appeared to be more heavy duty than the Taig. But, since I have no experience with either I am asking here.

Thanks for the suggestion.

I have never used a Taig, however they are the most referenced tool for benchtop mills. They are good for the money.

I have an X2. My experience is limited, but I find that I prefer using a Bridgeport Series II knee mill. Big pieces and little pieces fit on it without having figure out how to hold it down on a tiny table, and then, the horsepower [2HP] on the spindle makes up for lack of experience.

You have to ask yourself "Do I want to make a CNC mill, or do I want to make parts?" You can always RFQ the parts you want made.

Simkins,

While making a CNC machine does sound interesting (as well as fun and educating), right now I would rather be able to make parts. However, since I love learning new things, if there was a big enough advantage I would consider assembling a CNC mill. Oh yeah, as long as it wouldn't take me forever too. I was just worried that a Taig might not be able to handle what I was going to make but, like I said I do not yet have any first hand experience.

Askman,

Are you saying that the TL512 mill that I was asking about is an X1 conversion? Could I do an X3 conversion with ball screws for under $2800?



Thanks,
Frank

Look up X1 on here, there are a couple of threads going currently, but the X1 has a long and tarnished history no matter how many extra letters and numbers you add to its name. Probably why they don't call it an X1 in the auction.

Just print out a picture of that auction, then go to Harbor Freight and look at thier 299.95 mill and I bet you'll recognize it pretty fast. Then remember thier "constructed just like a Bridgeport" "made in USA" and "can't buy a better mill" and see if you are comfortable doing business with these people.

BTW, servos on that thing is one of the most ridiculous things I've seen in a while. To the newbies eye, however, it does make the whole unit appear to have an aura of quality. Probably precisely the reason it was done. I am actually impressed by the level of misleading statistics and bafflegab aimed directly at the non-experienced user. It is quite an impressively crafted piece of FUD (Fear, Uncertainty, Doubt) aimed squarely at unnerving prospective buyers and undermining faith in other CNC equipment. It appears to target the Taig most squarely, as they are pretty much the gold standard reference for small tabletop mills.

I am glad you checked here, I am afraid many won't have. I would have been fooled by that ad when I first was getting into CNC. I'm sure many are.
Unfortunately, the people who fall prey to this kind of scam when getting into CNC for the first time often leave frustrated and never look back. These kind of sharks are damaging the whole industry.

If you want a machine about that size and price, clearly go Taig. If you can afford to about double your budget, then other options open up as well for much larger ready-to-run machines like Syil's X3 CNC conversion.

I appreciate all of the replies. Thanks guys.

I looked again at the picture of the mill on the ebay auction and then went and looked at some pictures of the X1's;yep, you're right it looks awful close.

What kind of cuts can a Taig make in the materials I mentioned earlier? By what kind of cuts I mean like:

With a .250" ball nose end mill how many IPM @ what depth in 7075-T6?

And can a Taig even reasonably cut through 4041 pre-hardened steel?

I appreciate all of the help. I probably almost ended up with a lower quality machine at a higher price.

There is a thread on that machine somewhere on this forum. I recall one of the comments from an (owner?) to the effect that the control systems weren't bad but the mechanicals were X1 with all the deficiencies that that implies (although the maker claims that the X1 parts are just "raw material" and are reworked to a higher standard. I'm saving my pennies for a Taig and, after the recent issues with pet food, toothpaste and seafood, if I pick something up and can find "made in China" on it, I put it down.

EM

When I asked about the TL512 (used to be TL511DN) being a CNC conversion from an existing mill I was told:

The CNC conversion works only if you have a good mill in a first place.
We tried to retrofit several models a few years ago but it was a waist of time.
All Chinese retrofits are sort of poor man cnc.
We are using Chinese components from various sources but treated them as "raw material".
They have to be re-machined and honed to make a decent component.
The Taig is a very good machine for light applications. It is a light, aluminum machine.
I am skeptical of a CNC conversion machines on Ebay. No one in particular. A lot of complaints on user groups.
Most of them cannot match motors to the machines.

Thanks for the reply,

Frank

X3: $1020 shipped
X3 deluxe cnc kit with air spring: $1000shipped (cncfusion) this is what I got.

3 CW230 stepper driver and 36v power supply $280 from circuitspecialist (or 400 bucks if you go with 3 geckos)
2-280oz nema 23 steppers and 1-420 nema 34 stepper: $175 or so
that is about 2500 bucks. use the computer you have and 150 for mach3 license. not bad.

for taig machining with 1/4" ball nose or on steel, you need cooling setup. with 1/8" carbide endmill at about 4000rpm, I can cut .1" depth at about 5IPM without cooling. if I run coolant, I can go much higher rpm and speed. you can also cut steel, but feedrate will have to be low. (allow the bit to cut)

The mill youre asking about is a X1 modified for CNC. It's crap. I have an X2 and I have spent hours lapping the ways, adjusting it and making parts for it, and I would say that it's quite good now, but I have spent over $4500 on it (precision ballscrews, geckos..etc). I would go with an X3, and if you are good at hunting on ebay, you can get some fairly cheap steppers, drivers and ballscrews. I bet you can do it all for $2500.

askman,

have you completed your conversion? If you have are you satisfied with it? What kind of backlash does it have? How long did it take you to do the conversion?

Where did you buy your X3 Grizzly? Harbor Freight?

I now just have to make up my mind about whether to do my own X3 conversion or go with the Taig. I would like to have the, fourth, A-axis that comes with many of the cnc Taig's but even if I go with an X3 I could add it later.

Thanks for the info!

I am planning on doing it this weekend. (I have a table coming to put it on) I've been reorganizing my shop, so that has taken me lot of time. I am selling my taig and my x2 in favor of my x3. (as well as my c3 lathe, which I am replacing with emco compact8) there is a thread on this conversion in syil america forum. it should not be too bad. about 1 day work for mechanical conversion and few hours for electrical. go with grizzly, as it has bigger table travel compared to HF and cheaper right now.
I am also converting my 4" sieg rotary table to cnc. I got it started, adding thrust bearing and making mods to reduce backlash. (right now, it is about 1 degree backlash, which I want to reduce, which I've found a way to do) I should have gotten sherline rotary table, but I already had this one.

I know that this is primarily a forum of guys that 1) are extremely into building things themselves, 2) already have a much greater array of tools and skills than even most mechanically inclined folks do, and 3) have an almost cult-like pride about not letting anyone else do anything they might be able to do themselves. Don't forget 4) that we're insanely cheap old skinflints, too!

Because of all of this I know we have a great tendency toward assuming everyone else has the same inherent skillsets and interest in getting elbow-deep into tearing aport everything like we do. I am constantly reminded how much we take for granted as a simple job that is actually well beyond the ken of even very smart people that simply never spent thier whole lives building things since they were kids. Even if they have the skills - and I know this is REALLY hard to grasp - they might just be interested in machining and not building mills and learning electronics.

We should remember that when recommending new machines to people. Sure WE can put together a conversion in a day, pick the right motors, and wire up the controllers and configure the software in a snap. That is because we do this a lot. This is not a trivial job by any stretch.
How many posts are there where we offer help about projects people have still going a year later trying to get running for the first time?

I am a person that is considered to have unnervingly scary skills when it comes to things mechanical, even by other engineers, and I never even once considered building my first CNC from scratch. Now I build them all the time - I had something that ran right to work and learn from.

Secondly, sometimes it is a purely business decision. For my first machine, I needed to make parts, not CNC equipment. I certainly couldn't afford to have the machine down for a week while trying to chase down some little issue that kept it from running right, and for a newbie that is every adjustment there is. For us we instantly spot a gib or bearing or Mach adjustment and fix it without thinking, but that will stop new users dead for weeks as they don't know how to recognize what the problems are caused by and chase them down yet.
You have to have a place to start first. I learned CNC without ever knowing what the hell a stepper motor was and I have no idea even what kind of screws were in my first machine. Give me one good reason I needed to? That was something that came later because I wanted to learn more.
First I learned the art of machining, and am very glad I could just concentrate on that and not on trying to screw with my mill.

Please think about newbies before giving advice! Can you save $500 bucks or more building an X3 conversion yourself? Sometimes. Can they? No. Not a chance.
The extra cost of a conversion over a turnkey solution with support or training is not worth the money to us, we don't need it.
It is the best investment most folks starting out could ever make. Period.

If someone asked you to teach them how to drive a car, would your first response be to start suggesting ways to weld up the frame, the proper tools to form the body panels, and what pistons to best use in what modified engine block in building a car from scratch?
Get serious. They want to learn to drive first. Save the hotrodding gearhead lessons until later.

725Franky, if you go with an X3, just get a Syil or similar. If you go Taig, get a complete ready-to-roll unit as well. After a year, then build an X3.
Get a complete unit, and just go make parts. For you ready-built is a far cheaper solution.

I too am shopping around for a CNC. I've posted multiple time on here and have gathered sone very valueable information. I've been up and down the same path...Sherline - Taig - X2 - X3 - Build my own. I'm pretty much set on a Taig at this time. After weighing all the factors and trying to get away from the "Big Hammer" theory, the Taig seems to be the best fit for budget as well as for what I need at this time.

Stepper, had a very good point on advice for newbies. I'd love to build some cool highend CNC Mill, but I wouldn't have the first clue where to begin and chances are I would purchase the wrong thing and screw everything up and that would wind up costing me more money. I'm also very impatient and want instant gratification. I'm still (slowly) learning that the most expensive isn't necessarily the best. Before coming here, I almost bought a CNCMaster mill that would have cost me nearly twice as much money as a Taig and would have done just as much or possibly less. Though it was expensive and I thought it must be the best. :)

I guess the best thing to consider is some of the things I've learned along the way.
1. Servos are faster but more expensive
2. Ballscrews are more precise but more expensive
3. Use Mach 3, it's highly recommended
4. If you have the space, money and plans to mill larger items go with the X3

Like I said, I'm going with a Taig. The reasoning is the Taig has a faster 1/4 hp motor that will spin at 10K RPM, the 'Y' axis will go up to 12" and the support from Nick Carter is impressive. I plan on purchasing mine from www.cartertools.com. Nick was actually the only person that replied to my emails with lots and lots of questions. I still haven't heard back from Syril and that was last week when I sent the email. Hmmm...

You'll definitely get lots of great info from this forum. Everyone has answered my questions very thoroughly. I haven't ran into any prejudice either, which is great. Not like some Sports forums. ;)

Good luck!
-Ed

Thanks everyone for the replies!


askman
with 1/8" carbide endmill at about 4000rpm, I can cut .1" depth at about 5IPM without cooling.


Askman, which mill were you referring to for that cutting info?
Also, with your Taig did you have a coolant system on it? If you did what kind? Did you just have a 3 Axis or 4? What were the thing that you liked / didn't like about the Taig?

Stepper Monkey:

Thanks for the advise. I may just go ahead with a Taig like you said and learn a little bit about machining first and then build my own machine.
I am not sure whether or not I would be able to do it right now with out the experience - because I've never tried. I do know that it is something that I would enjoy immensely though. I have always been one to tinker with things and take things apart to see how and why it works. Before I leaned to drive I (with the help of my dad and younger brother) put together my first car, from a under the hood burn and a totaled one. The computer that I am using right now I built. Now, I am not saying that to say that your wrong;but, rather to say that building my own machine would be something that I would thoroughly enjoy (it would be up my ally). If I can determine that a Taig will meet my needs then I probably will go with that for now and build my own once it has paid for itself...like you suggested.

Five years ago, not being a machinist, and totally unfamiliar with the CNC universe, I found that there was plenty to learn in just dealing with CAD, CAM and milling issues to keep me on my toes and making plenty of mistakes when I got my first mill. I actually just sent my CAD files out to be cut or RP'd for 6 months before I looked into a mill, just so I'd get the CAD part figured out.

Now I'm on my second mill which I've modified to suit my needs better than stock and feel I know enough now to source the right parts to build a mill that would work well. I also know enough to know there could be numerous problems encountered along the way and some serious time and tinkering involved to before it was up and running the way I'd want.

I'm no idiot when it comes to things mechanical either, I've had my hands dirty since I've been a kid and have enough hard earned knoweldge to be dangerous in numerous fields. I would strongly agree with Stepper Monkey and others who say that unless you want your hobby to be working on an inoperative CNC mill, buy a turnkey mill, learn how to use it, and make some parts.

Any suggestions as to the best place to get a Taig mill? I've seen several listed on eBay, is there any reason to stay away from those? If this is the route I am going to go (Taig) I would prefer to get one with a 4th axis.

Are there other mills around the same price / size of the Taig that I would do well to consider?

Another question:

Could you give some suggestions as to what brands / where to buy tooling? I have learned that cheaper is usually not better.

Thanks,

Frank

5IPM 1/8". .1" depth was with taig using carbide bit. (I used just bit of wd40)


for a vendor, I also suggest www.cartertools.com is probably first place I would go with. nick carter is great. as another source, www.f1d.biz (peckpolymer.com) they are also good people.



3 axis is x, y, z (typical milling machine) 4th axis is added using rotary table. I do have 4th axis available. I would recommend sherline rotary table for it. (I use one I converted)

$3000 machine is not high end cnc by no means. it is very much a budget machine. anyway, I would still recommend taig as one of the best bang for the bucks for beginners. I would consider keeping mine if I had more money and space. :) x3 willhave to do the job for me.

I am also a newbie and shopping for my first mill. While I have considered doing a conversion, I am now leaning heavily towards getting a turnkey Taig for my first one.

From watching eBay on and off for several months, it seems as though used Taigs sell for not much less than new ones so buying one is pretty low risk. In fact I view it as a rental plan where the difference between your net purchase cost and what you sell it for is the rent.

I will likely buy a Taig and use it for a while. That will allow me to determine what my real needs/wants are. If it handles my needs then I am set. Otherwise I can either buy a more suitable turnkey or do my own conversion using the Taig to make the parts.

Say I sell the Taig a year later for for $300 less than I paid for it... That is like renting it for $25 a month rent isn't it?

I've noticed the same thing rowbare. Initially I was looking for strickly a rotary engraver. Then I discovered that CNC Mills are cheaper and do a heck of a lot more. I almost bought a Sherline off of eBay, then I did some research and I would have been quite disappointed if I would have gone through with it. Not that Sherline's are bad by any means, just that it wouldn't do what I need it to do.

I too am going to go with a Taig. I've been trying to sell my pickup, but that's not going to well, so now I'm actually going to let my business purchase it, then I'll write it off on my taxes. :)

From what I've read, you'll be happy with the Taig. Not a bad deal for only $25/mo rental, unless of course you put it on a credit card and don't pay it off quick enough. :)

-Ed

i just sold me taig turnkey (I built it though from cr2019) and bit of tooling/PC for 1250. I bought mine when it was lot cheaper too, so in the end, I did not lose that much on it.

I have decided to go with a 2019CR and Xylotex Driver kit. I do believe that I will go with Nick Carter for the mill : www.CarterTools.com .

I have also noticed that the Taig mills don't sell for much less used.

Thanks for the help everyone.

Now I just have to order everything. And then figure out what to get for tooling and coolant system .... and a vise.....


- Frank