Howdy,

Now that I've gotten some good feedback on some Bench top mills, I have some other questions pertaining to rotary engraving.

Has anyone had good success with their mill and if so, what mill do you have?

I'm looking to rotary engrave on to items such as SS flasks, pens, pendants and knives. Most rotary machines that I've seen are spinning at around 10K-12K RPM. With that said, I have only seen two Mills on the market that have such speed capabilities for engraving (Sherline and CNCMasters).

The other questions would be is it possible to stop the Mill from spinning in order to do diamond drag? Is there software that can deal with curved items (such as a proximity sensor)?

Last question...what software will allow for rotary engraving of images in 3D, Font filling, etc.?

Sorry for all the questions...I want to make sure I make the right choice for machines.

Thanks
-Ed

what i think that you are going to find, is rather than going the proximity sensor route, you will be better off measuring the item, drawing that up in the cad software, and then applying the design to that.. when you start talking about autosensing shapes and coutours your getting way way deeper than most are willing to go.. there will be extensive software, hardware, and electronics involved...

as for high rpm units, you could go with something like an x3, and then add a high speed spindle off the side of the main.. something like an air powered one, or some others, depending on what you can make work.. heck you could even hang a laminate trimmer off the side of it, and thoes babys can really get up there in the rpms.. and i've seen pictures of it done here on cnc zone...

as for stopping the spindle, yes, mach 3 can handle that.. you could set it up to control either the main, or the auxiliary spindle through a breakout board and relay(s) though i dont think that i would reccomend dragging anything if your then gonna turn the spindle back on at 10k+rpm's

and dont forget that your gonna need a 4th axis, driver, and some way to hold the part your engraving... like a lathe chuck of something of that sort...

I would differ with a couple of the points made above. First and most important, as one who owns and has owned five different brands of tabletop mill including an X3, and one who does much rotary engraving, an X3 is the LAST machine I would recommend for engraving. Flat out, no buts. It is a good machine, but not for this. That is much akin to saying to start out with a Caterpillar tractor chassis to build a racecar from.
Rotary engraving requires a very light and accurate touch.
You are looking for a scalpel, not a meat cleaver. I wouldn't doubt that after much fiddling you could probably get an X3 to do engraving at least somewhat adequately, it is certainly not the right tool for the job. Even if you did such, it is way more expensive and cumbersome of an option.
Often, people on here simply default to the bigger hammer approach and forget that there is more than one kind of job, and there is more than size of hammer sold at the hardware store for good reason.

Secondly, I would agree with the idea of skipping the autosensing unless you are willing to buy some already built and seriously expensive industrial gear that has it built in. I have wanted an autosensing option forever but it is just not yet feasable on our scale.
I would say unequivically that manually programming in the curvature does not work at all by itself. The tolerances on engraving are too tight, any misalignment, tilt, or radius errors of even .001-.002 become very, very noticeable with a rigidly mounted rotary bit due to the nature of the engraving bits shape. Trust me, you will NEVER get it perfect, and even if you did the radius on something like a flask is inconsistent enough across its face it wouldn't matter anyway! This is a problem that plagues us constantly, and there is no good way around it currently other than a springloaded "floating" bit holder. There have been a couple of discussions on building these on the engraving forum. Matched with manual mapping it solves most of the common problems most of the time - very cheaply and easily too - but is still no magic bullet!


I have had my best success on very smooth, lightweight slides with tight thread pitches. My favorite Z axis has a four-ounce, 40,000 rpm ceramic bearing dental handpiece on a very lightweight skeletonized bracket. It is designed to take 1/8" engraving bits only. It is 0.9 degree per step Nema 17 driven to reduce rotary inertia and vibration issues. Reduction of weight on the Z is important. This is one reason bolting something to the side of an already 70 pound headstock on an X3 is rather pointless. Smoothness is key when rotating a .005 tip (or less) vee bit through metal at 30,000 rpm. Real easy to break.

If you don't want a dedicated machine like a Roland or Model Master, or a permanantly modified homebrew like me, you can still do quite well with a Taig if you remove the Taigs original motor and spindle, and replace it with a bracket and spindle something like Wolfgang Engineering sells on Ebay. This is easy to switch back and forth with the original headstock as the assemblies mount with a quick release dovetail. Same might go for other light machines like a Sherline but I haven't tried any of them. You need accuracy, resolution, and speed for engraving but no real need for high capacity. A machine with the ability to move 1" mills through steel and do fast rapids is not a requirement here, and actually hurts your cause quite a bit before you even start.

Great, thanks a lot guys!

A while back I had a rep come over to the shop and demo a Vision rotary machine. The cost was around $12K. I wasn't too impressed, especially considering the guy destroyed two of my flasks before he got it right. :)

Anyway, I'm looking for something that can mill out some parts for a project I'm working on as well as allow me to do some engraving. I really like the Sherline, but it seems to be a bit spendy for what you get. I imagine it would do engraving well with the pneumatic attachment; however, I'm sceptical about the aluminum mill work. I really like the SmithyCNC 516. Seems like a pretty nice machine; though I'm not sure how it would be to retro fit it for a high speed rotary attachment.

Stepper Monkey: What software do you use for your engraving work? Do you have any pics of some engraving work you've done?

Oh, what would the 4th axis be used for anyway? I imagine I'll need this to do some wheels and gear work.

Thanks!
-Ed

Stepper monkey, you make some good points. i hadnt considered the mass of the x3 vs the job... where 99% of my work will be heavy hogging and pocketing, and 1% engraving, i think that i can come out with good enough results for what i need, but for what nospinters is talking about i definately like your suggestions for equip config over my original suggestions...

Ok, I've now spent the last couple hours crawling around on the net. It's looking like the Taig is the winner (for what I need). I did find that the machine can come with servos rather than steppers; however, I'm wondering if I should get the thing CNC Ready and add my own servos and controller.

Anyone know what a good set of servos and controller would be? I'll need USB, considering I don't even have a parallel port on this computer. I'll also need a 4th Axis port. I found a couple (FlashCut and camPOD). FlashCut is very spendy and camPOD is only a conversion box, which is also spendy. :)

It seems like Mach3 softare is the way to go; therefore, I'll have to make sure whatever controller will support Mach3 as well.

Oh, here's the best thing I came across - Spring loaded engraving tool. WOOHOO! http://www.2linc.com/products.htm

Thanks
-Ed

Great, thanks a lot guys!

A while back I had a rep come over to the shop and demo a Vision rotary machine. The cost was around $12K. I wasn't too impressed, especially considering the guy destroyed two of my flasks before he got it right. :)

Anyway, I'm looking for something that can mill out some parts for a project I'm working on as well as allow me to do some engraving. I really like the Sherline, but it seems to be a bit spendy for what you get. I imagine it would do engraving well with the pneumatic attachment; however, I'm sceptical about the aluminum mill work. I really like the SmithyCNC 516. Seems like a pretty nice machine; though I'm not sure how it would be to retro fit it for a high speed rotary attachment.

Stepper Monkey: What software do you use for your engraving work? Do you have any pics of some engraving work you've done?

Oh, what would the 4th axis be used for anyway? I imagine I'll need this to do some wheels and gear work.

Thanks!
-Ed

I would imagine the Sherline might be fine for engraving but the aluminum work is right out. It is a bit spendy and a Taig will do much bigger and tougher work for similar or less cost. The Smithy looks even better still for not much more at all - I will have to look at one up close but it looks like a machine done right, and at a great price for the features on it. Fitting it for high speed may or may not be troublesome though, I see your concern.

I use Artcam for engraving, it makes it easy and fast. Really powerful and intuitive to use. Might not be the answer for you, though, as it is really a comprehensive 3D relief modeling program that was meant to do far more than just engraving, and so at 10 grand it isn't worth buying just to use it as an engraving program!
I used to just use Corel to lay out any work as vector files and then convert them to g-code. This is an incredibly easy and powerful way to do 2 1/2 D engraving very cheaply, as with the ability to use almost any standard font and to use the "trace" function to convert images to vectors the sky is pretty much the limit unless you want to move into full 3D relief modeling.

As for the rotary axis, it comes in very handy doing rings and pens and the like. Anything cylindrical. I even did a complex portrait entirely around a revolver cylinder. I'll see if I saved a picture of it. Makes gun engraving a snap.
For sourcing them, the basic Sherline rotary table is way more than adequate, and if you look close most manufacturers of even the $20k machines just use it instead of trying to make thier own. They are really just that good. It is the one real hands-down winner of a product in the Sherline catalog.

I use CoolMuscle servo motors on my desktop mill and WinCNC to drive them. The motors aren't cheap but are fast and incredibly smooth. I used to use Flashcut with steppers, but WinCNC is much faster, it "looks ahead" farther, and you can configure it for any motor. Flashcut wanted big bucks to upgrade my stepper version to servo so I just sold it and switched.

I doubt speed is a big issue with engraving, but milling my parts now, they're done in a fifth the time it took with my old set up, and with better surface finish. I know a guy who just switched his mill from Flashcut to WinCNC, no other changes, and it cut his time down almost by half.

I agree about the 4th axis, Sherline's is the best thing in their line, that's why its on a lot of other manufacturers mills.

Hey millingjeweler,

What type of Mill are you using? I totally agree with going the Servo route verses the Steppers. It definitely looks like going with a CNC Ready and adding the Servos and building a controller will be the best way. Considering I need USB and everyone tends to sell these at an very high price.

I have a budget around $3K-$4K. Hopefully, it's possible. :)

Thanks
-Ed

I use a Minitech Pro. A little bigger and burlier than a Sherline or Taig. I'd take a Taig over a Sherline any day though.

Keep an eye out in ebay if you're not in a hurry, I see Minitech, Model Master and similar chassis with or without slides, motors etc, from time to time.

I would actually suggest spending the money on a parallel card, they are less than 10 bucks and have numerous advantages. USB can be very problematic for a number of reasons, I won't go into them here as they get pretty technical but my advice is simply to steer clear. There are ways to use it, don't get me wrong, but they are pretty clunky workarounds. No simple, reliable, and cost-effective method is really possible right now. If you absolutely cannot use parallel, RJ45/CAT5 is possible over a network card.

As an owner of Flashcut gear, I can say I am very disappointed in its performance for a number of reasons. Other than convenience and easy setup, and possibly long-term reliability, it fails to outperform any other solutions I have seen while actually cutting, even the cheapest. I concur with Millingjeweler that most other systems are a lot faster and smoother, even if harder to initially setup.

Mach is a real winner, definitely stick with that.

A separate fourth axis "port" is not required. A simple four-axis setup using Geckos will work fine with Mach and a parallel. Only if you already have a three axis setup, and need to add a fourth, is buying anything special needed - and then simply buying an additional single-axis driver from Gecko is sufficient regardless of the brand of your original setup. If you do servos that is the way to go. I personally don't believe that below a certain size and load range there is any real advantage to servos, so I use steppers for smaller, lighter duty units as they are WAY more cost-effective and simpler than servos. I do like servos, there are places for them where nothing else will do the job properly, but I don't see much advantage for them in your size requirements. There are many very good, experienced opinions that differ with mine on that one though! Use whatever you feel comfortable with.

The engraving tool looks awesome, it is exactly what I meant. I highly recommend them, I don't see how anyone can survive without them actually. I built my own for about 15 bucks before I knew the 2linc unit even existed, so I can't speak for it firsthand but it looks lika a really good solution.

i'm glad someone brought up the lpt card, i was thinking about commenting on that as a much easier and cheaper way to go over the usb conversion, then as i read on i found that it was already suggested.. much less headaches, cheaper, simpler, and just all around a much bigger bang for the buck..

I didn't realized I could go with a NIC/CAT5 setup. Any idea if anyone makes a control box with one already installed?

Basically what I'd like would be a nice cabinet with the motor controllers, power supply and an network card installed. Not sure what else I would need. I was looking at the control units that IMService carries:
http://www.cadcamcadcam.com/index.asp?PageAction=VIEWPROD&ProdID=116 I'm not sure how good this unit is as well as if Mach3 can be used.

I just read some other post where someone was talking about going with ballscrews is critical to reduce backlash. Not sure I got the right or not. I still need to learn this terminology.

It doesn't appear that the Taig comes with ballscrews. The only ones that I can see that include the ballscrews are the Syil X2/X3 and the Smithy. :(

Another thing I read was in regards to limit switches. Is this something I can easily add and how much more do these cost?

-Ed

If you go with servos, you will likely need to add limit switches because of the servos nature. With steppers, it is not mandatory. I find them not that useful though some love them. It comes down to personal choice, just like with steppers vs. servos on small machines, or who makes the best fishing poles. There isn't a right or wrong answer.

Ballscrews are nice in any size by anyone's measure, but really shine the most in larger applications. For light duty work on small machines simple AB nuts do the job very well, though by thier nature they get less practical as size and load increase. Hence the larger units favoring the use of ballscrews. Unless you want to get into real money you can easily get away without them for your purposes.
If you really want to go completely nuts look at getting small hyperaccurate ground ballscrew stages as surplus from computer clean room manufacturing. You can just scratch-build a machine for yourself from those, but no one just sells complete small hobby or jewelry CNC machines built to those specs because of both the high cost and lower necessity.

I would really strongly just suggest parallel if possible. It may not be new or high-tech, or even practical for modern smart peripherals, but it is not obsolete for our uses. It is still used for CNC as it really is the perfect fit for machine control applications (with early line printers and such constructed the way they were thirty years ago, direct machine control is actually exactly what parallel was doing. We just happen to be the only people still using it as it was intended). As for the network option, do you really need to go that route? It is nice to get the longer cable runs in the few cases its necessary, but retrofitting it into a hobby controller will get you into cost and complexity well beyond any logic for a personal system. I'm all for it or USB cabling, don't get me wrong, if and when someone comes up with a practical solution.
The only controller I know that handles RJ45 input natively is a Gecko controller (the GREX, a really cool unit), and I don't know if it fully supports servos yet, just steppers so far. Servo support is eventually coming though, you might check the Gecko forum for an update.

I'd agree with the previous posts about skipping the USB and going with a card. Less problems and more options currently.

Ballscrews are nice, but not necessary. For engraving, I would think you can do without them and still be plenty accurate. I don't have a Taig, but I'm sure you can adjust the nuts for close to zero backlash.

Limit switches are nice, but not necessary as well. Helpful if this is your first machine though.

Stepper Monkey is right about the servo/stepper issue, both can produce great parts. Make sure with steppers, both your motors and controller can support a high number of steps for greater accuracy and smooth moves.

Hey guys. I was thinking last night (rare occasion) while searching around for more info on the controller and I totally forgot I have an extra Dell Inspiron 8200 latop with a parallel port on it. :)

It was my wife's computer and she no longer uses it. I remember keeping it for future projects. It must be sign!!

So now that my quest has been reduced to a parallel contoller, it will save me some money.

Now, the I made the mistake at looking more into the X2 machine and I must say that Syil has a pretty good deal on their X2 package and it comes with the ballscrew. I'm thinking probably only the 'Z' though, but it can be upgraded down the road for 'X' and 'Y'. It doesn't have the limit switches; though it sounds like it's no big deal with the Steppers. I emailed Syil with a ton of questions in regards to both the X2 and X3. Though I don't have a ton of money to spend, I was thinking that I don't want to find myself in the same bind as with my C02 laser. I didn't buy a big enough one at first and had to turn down quite a few commercial jobs due to size and power limitations. I really don't want to make the same mistake again. A complete X3 package will run me just over $5K, which very well could push my wife to making me LIVE with my new mill :) hehe

My other reasoning behind the X3 would be the nice features it has and the speed in which it works. I'm a very impatient person and I love the cool digital goodies on it. Though I think of the "Big Hammer" theory that was mentioned previously and probably could live without such a beast.

I also sent Nick Carter a bunch of questions that he said he'll answer later on today in regards to his Taig's.

I think the other thing I'm gonna do is post to see if there's anyone in the Seattle area that would allow me to drop by and see what one of these CNC's can do. I've never seen one live in person.

Thanks
-Ed

The X3 is a pretty big hammer for engraving knives. LOL

Sorry, I sympathize, I have the same problems with tools of all sorts. There's always a bigger, better one only a few dollars more...... You should see my garage.

But, they're REALLY BIG knives. ;)

Yeah, I hear ya about the garage. I have a full production woodworking shop right now. I'm sure my wife will be delighted once I move into her half and fill it full of metal working machinery.

I'm actually selling my pickup truck I just bought 3 months ago. It will really depend on how much I can get for it. Hopefully $6500. That should get me a nice Mill. :)

-Ed

I hate to sound flip about it as I know most people make a lot of sacrifices to even get one mill, but if you are serious about getting into CNC I would suggest that just planning to eventually get two or more mills is probably the most logical step. It may even be the cheapest depending on your uses instead of trying to get an all-in-one machine.

I am a firm believer in the right tool for the job. Define your needs before you start. If you need engraving, buy a light, accurate machine for it. Want to cut heavy stuff, buy one built for that as well. It will certainly do better work for you in the end with less headache, and may even be cheaper, as a single machine that can do both will likely cost way more than two mills built to single purpose.

I have a miniature, very accurate ballscrew mill with only 2 inches x and y travel and even less in Z. The table weighs just grams. It cuts extreme precision jewelry waxes on a small rotary microscope positioning stage at the speed of "Oh my god!", but only uses needle sized bits and would fold up and die if I ever put metal in it.

I also have a bone-stock X3 on our shop bench useful for most general-purpose stuff, with no worries about making it perform any real high-tolerance work.

I have others as well for fun at home mainly, but my point is for my two main required jobs - jewelry waxes and metal cutting - it was cheaper and easier to get two machines suited to thier purposes than to get one machine that could both cut through 50 lb. blocks of steel while still having the speed and accuracy of a jewelry machine in my case, an engraver in yours.

Same reason I have both a sports car and a pickup truck. It was actually cheaper to buy a second-hand sports car than to do what everyone around here seems to be doing and "hopping up" and lowering thier truck to get performance, which then really doesn't excel at either job in the end.

I agree wholeheartedly. Much easier to make/buy a small highly accurate mill for what you need, than to try to get a bigger one to do everything. Plus, easier to move, find a place for, etc.

Since this is your first mill and experience with cnc, you'll learn a lot as you go and might have different ideas for areas to explore down the road. If you want to branch into bigger stuff, get the right tool then.

Ok, I think I'm leaning more towards the Taig. A couple reasons are,
1. The high speed motor (10K rpm)
2. Greater 'Y'
3. Heard a lot of good things about it

My concern is that I'll need to still spend money on the software. Definitely go with Mach3, photoVCarve and eithe Alibre Design CAD or bobCAD.

I'll also add the spring loaded engraving tool from 2L.
Total cost I estimate will be around $3500 less the CAD/CAM software and bits.

What software would you guys recommend. I've heard that bobCAD is a pain to deal with their reps. They will keep hounding you until you buy from them, maybe I should do that to sell my products. :)

Last question...does someone sell a bit/ end mill package? I have no idea what I'd need at first.

Thanks
-Ed

Bits & Bits (www.Bitsbits.net) is where I get my engraving and profile bits and have resharpening done, but there are others too if you look.
End mills for larger work come from too many places to list.

You'll need a set of hold-downs and clamps, bits and mills, er16 collet set, some form of coolant (I prefer water-based, but everyone has a favorite from ATF to ????), a set of calipers, dial gauge, and whatever else you normally use for measuring and setup. All of this stuff is relatively cheap and harbor freight has a lot of it really cheap.

A turnkey CNC Taig, with a Sherline rotary and Mach in a package all ready to roll should come in around $2000. All of the miscellaneous crap above is still under $500 even if you go nuts on the bits and mills.

As for the software, don't know what to say there. I like my packages so I haven't played too much with any others, but since the ones I use aren't going to work for you most likely I am of no help there.

I think you'll be happy with the Taig. They are popular and have a pretty good resale value so if you need to change down the road, it'll be easy.

Bits &Bits for conical/profile cutters.

Ebay, Wholesale Tool, http://www.wttool.com for end mills, ball nose and other tooling. I wouldn't go too crazy at first, I bought stuff I thought was essential and hardly ever use now.

I use Liquid Ice for cooling, http://www.liquidicecoolant.com/, it is non toxic, doesn't mist or smell. Works well for me.

I don't know which of the many CAD programs would be best suited for engraving, I would venture to guess that you can engrave to some degree with any of them. I'd get what demos you can and start messing around.

These CAD programs are free and surprisingly functional. No guarantees they'll be what you need though.

Bcad http://www.propro.ru/eng/products/bcad.html
MOI http://www.moi3d.com/download.htm
Gsimple http://www.gsimple.eu/index.html

I use Freeform which is heavily geared for modeling and that's the area of CAD where I have experience.

OK Guys;
I'm an amature engraver and currently have a sherline setup with a 10K spindle. I use half round gravers for doing handgun slides! I like the idea of a spring loaded tool holder but the $400 price tag seems excessive! Does anyone have plans for such an animal??? Seems like it should be pretty easy to reverse engineer unless I'm missing something!
Any ideas?????
Nosplinters!!!
Please keep us posted with info and pix of your new setup. It should prove very informative and interesting for someone trying to setup an engraving shop!! Love to see some of your work. A man that enhances a flask is a man after my own heart!!
Bill
:)

Engravers probably gladly pay $400 bucks for one, as it would save them that in just a couple of weeks.

You can indeed just turn your own parts and make one yourself for an hour or so and $20. There isn't anything special to them, they are exactly what they look like, a springloaded telescoping collet holder for 1/8" bits. I built one, others on here have too, someone even posted the plans for thiers. Look on the engraving forum.
Just watch your runout, keep the telescoping smooth, and experiment with spring pressures.
When using them, simply remember to keep it moving whenever it is down and cutting. Pause a springloaded bit over the work while its spinning and you just bored a hole...

millingjeweler: fhanks for the suggestions for software. The same company that sells the spring loaded engraving tool also sells what appears to be some pretty good software, specific to engraving - $150

Considering my prototyping I'm going to need to do, I'll need to use more modeling software. I'll be milling out wheels with some large widely spaced gear lugs and some smaller boogie wheels and oil filled shocks (this one will be a challenge). Once I get good enough, I'll attempt to mill some replacement parts for my R/C cars and heli. I use CorelDraw soley for laser engraving work; therefore, I'm fairly good with 2D, but know nothing about 3D modeling. Alibre Designer looks pretty impressive; however, way more than I'm willing to spend. I developed my own photo laser software (called LRIP); however, it's a long way from CAD/CAM stuff. :)

stepper monkey: I'd hate to admit it, but I'm one of those people that'd pay $400 for something that has been tested and actually works. Basically I'm lazy and a bit impatient. ;)

bill: I'll certainly post the details and some pics once I get everything setup. I just put my F150 up for sale yesterday. Hopefully, it will go quickly so I can get one step closer to a Mill. The main reason I'm wanting to get into rotary engraving is for the fact that we are currently #1 on several search engines for the key phrase - "personalized knives". We only have 6 knives to be engraved with the laser. Losing a bit of business there. We used to do small SS flasks with peoples photos on them. It was pretty cool, but the markings would eventually wear off. Hopefully I can figure out how to get a high quality engraving with the mill...time will tell. :)

-Ed

stepper monkey: I'd hate to admit it, but I'm one of those people that'd pay $400 for something that has been tested and actually works. Basically I'm lazy and a bit impatient. ;)

-Ed

Don't see a problem with that at all. I would have bought one too, had they been available at the time!
Anyway, I think for that money they actually come included with the engraving software you mentioned if I read it right, making it a pretty good deal all around actually.

Hi all,

I just wanted to let you all know (if you're interested), that I finally made the plunge and got myself a Taig mill. I went with the 2019 cnc ready and added the Xylotex 4th axis controller and steppers. I didn't go with the rotary table right now. I figured it would be a while before I work up to that.

I also purchased the 2L spring tension engraving tool. So far, I only managed to do a test engraving on a piece of Alder. It's taking me a while to get use to Mach3 and the whole CNC lingo. :)

Once I get things down, I'll post some pics and possible a video "CNC for the challenged".

Thanks for all your great advice, I really appreciate it.

-Ed
No Splinters
www.nosplinters.com