Round about the 8th grade I did a science project on the coming climate change that was to destroy mankind as we knew him. Yes as far back as 1973 we were taught of the doom and gloom of the coming climate change. So I studied and I gathered all the info from all the top scientist of our day. By the time I was finished with my project I was a scared ****less little dude. Oh you bet I was I had all the "Facts" from all the "Scientists"
I was so excited to be the one to let man kind know about this coming doomsday. I worked my butt off I had the visuals and all the reports and the day of the science fair it was perfect.............................................

MY REPORT OF THE COMING ICE AGE THAT WAS TO DETROY ALL OF MANKIND!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Needless to say as I got older I was a relieved but also a tad disappointed that my first place project was in the not so distant future to be discovered as NOT TRUE the facts were all wrong, How could this be 34 years later and I am still waiting for the ICE AGE but no not so fast now.

GLOBAL WARMING is new disaster what a CROCK. And to think I once as little dude trusted these Scientists with my science project. Oh well I still got an A

Don't despair! it's still coming! See first the 2% additional CO2 we've added to the atmosphere and all the cow flatulance has to heat things up enough to melt the ice caps (watch for the Coke a Cola Bear on a boogie board), then while those of us in GA are enjoying our new, not so salty, beach front property (heck with peanuts man we got condos for rent now!) the ocean currents will change and then it will get cold and those of us in GA, now land locked again (dang where'd I park that combine?!?), will freeze to death (no really warm coats you see) as we watch the glaciers move down out of Tenn and S.C. The only consolation will be even if we can't take the cold like the Yankees at least we will have the pleasure of knowing all that is scraped clean ;) How's them horse apples Sherman!
I know this to be true, cause Big Daddy Gore told me so. Come on sing along. Oh you better not toot, ya better not poot cause the ice is coming to town...

Round about the 8th grade I did a science project on the coming climate change that was to destroy mankind as we knew him. Yes as far back as 1973 we were taught of the doom and gloom of the coming climate change. So I studied and I gathered all the info from all the top scientist of our day. By the time I was finished with my project I was a scared ****less little dude. Oh you bet I was I had all the "Facts" from all the "Scientists"
I was so excited to be the one to let man kind know about this coming doomsday. I worked my butt off I had the visuals and all the reports and the day of the science fair it was perfect.............................................

MY REPORT OF THE COMING ICE AGE THAT WAS TO DETROY ALL OF MANKIND!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Needless to say as I got older I was a relieved but also a tad disappointed that my first place project was in the not so distant future to be discovered as NOT TRUE the facts were all wrong, How could this be 34 years later and I am still waiting for the ICE AGE but no not so fast now.

GLOBAL WARMING is new disaster what a CROCK. And to think I once as little dude trusted these Scientists with my science project. Oh well I still got an A

Thought someone might like this editorial in our local paper...
All problems should be made 'tradable'

Posted: 6/28/2007

Having contemplated the carbon credit proposal, I am struck with the sheer brilliance of the concept. It appears that if we trade carbon emissions as a commodity, then somehow we are addressing the source of the problem and remediating it. And I thought that to reduce the increase in CO2 we need to reduce the emissions of CO2.

If I am wrong and carbon trading is actually a viable method of reducing the CO2 increases, then I propose that we carry it to the next logical level, "disease credits." Countries with rampant disease such as malaria and AIDS could trade disease credits with healthier countries. By doing so we wouldn't have to actually do anything about disease but we could all feel better about it.

And what of "poverty credits"? Countries with many impoverished people could purchase "poverty credits" from countries with fewer impoverished people. I haven't figured out what they would pay with however.

It seems that if we can make all of our problems a tradable commodity, then we will have no problems at all. I am now going to speak to my kids about "chores around the house" credits.

Chris De Witt, Reno


http://news.rgj.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20070628/OPED02/706280301/1100/OPED

MY REPORT OF THE COMING ICE AGE THAT WAS TO DETROY ALL OF MANKIND!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Needless to say as I got older I was a relieved but also a tad disappointed that my first place project was in the not so distant future to be discovered as NOT TRUE the facts were all wrong, How could this be 34 years later and I am still waiting for the ICE AGE but no not so fast now.

What a shame that it was all journalistic hype!

newsweek 1975 - cooling world
http://www.wmconnolley.org.uk/sci/iceage/newsweek-coolingworld.pdf

Please direct me to any peer reviewed science predicting an ice-age!
None have been found!

At the time, there was no scientific consensus, because the science of climatology was in its infancy. The cooling during this period was caused by the aerosols of sulphate & etc. liberated in the post-WW2 industrial boom.

There is no comparison between your claims and the state of the science of climate change in the early 21st century.

The science concerning the global warming is overwhelming and unequivocal.

The IPCC state that they have very high confidence [>90%] that the evidence points to the warming being anthropogenic in origin.

Ahh the words peer 'reviewed science'. Thats the whole point of the arguement.

We, the ordinary Joes,the public, say all this "global warming is our fault" stuff is b*ll*cks and the science community say, (very stiff upper lipped voice) 'It's the facts, all the scientists have evidence for it. Evidence to the contrary isn't peer reviewed, so there'.

The simple truth is, due to the problem of grants being hard to come by for the scientific community and goverments eager to obtain more money from the public, it is a bandwagon that could benefit both parties.

Now they use computer modelling software to predict things and throw in a few values and fiddled with the figures until they got an answer they liked, ie the one to provide the golden egg from the proverbial goose.

All those scientists wanting more money say 'aye', the steps to the bandwagon are this way. All those left behind we'll have to call them names like "Maverick, Nutter, layperson".

Those peers my friend, are ON the bandwagon.

Those scientists you may call "Maverick" are those men and woman who have integrity and honour but unfortunatly very little power.

Ahh the words peer 'reviewed science'. Thats the whole point of the arguement.

Now they use computer modelling software to predict things and throw in a few values and fiddled with the figures until they got an answer they liked, ie the one to provide the golden egg from the proverbial goose.


Here you are using a computer, which means that you use technology. Technology uses science. Science is theory, research is done to prove or disprove theory. If the research provides evidence that does not match the theory [it happens] the theory has to be modified [if appropriate] or discarded completely. A theory is tested by whether it can predict previously unseen behaviour. Naturally, research is done to look for the predicted behaviour. The theory is confirmed or confounded as a result. Science is an iterative process.
This is briefly how science works.

In this respect, climate science is no different from the science of semiconductors that underpins the electronics in the PC or Mac that you are using.

Climate models are part of this. Climate models are quite different from your expressed opinion.

The fact that models have difficulty in modelling ice-melt is because the mechanisms are still not properly understood. Currently the models underestimate melting by a factor of three or so. If it was merely a matter of a little tweaking here and there, then where would the problem be?

Model modification requires SCIENCE! This is why you are wrong!

Very briefly, climate models calculate the climate by incorporating the known behaviour of the various components of the atmosphere and hydrosphere.

I suggest you read the following, it is an introduction:
http://www.realclimate.org/index.php/archives/2007/08/regional-climate-projections/#more-442

The following includes more information about climate models.
Spencer Weart's "Discovery of Global Warming" (AIP)
http://www.aip.org/history/climate/index.html

All of these lead to peer-reviewed science.

The rest of your post was not worth commenting upon. No substance, just rant. Why not check your facts first!

I think we are selfish and ignorant by nature and thats probably whats going to kill off mankind just like what happen to the dinosaurs. The only difference is that it wasn't the dinosaurs fault they went extinct.

Don't think about now. The world took billions of years to be where we are. Yes, yes, it will probably take another billion years before it destroy itself, I hear you say. But why even take that chance. It could happen in the next hundred years or so. If we don't think about ourselves, at least think about the next generation who is going to inhabit this place. Are you happy to leave this world knowing your children will not have a house to live in? I think not, so why not think the same for the future generation.

Forget the argument if global warming or global cooling is happening or not. Something good will always come out of this if we just put all our mind together instead of arguing with each other over the issue.

Maybe the better way is, let some of us who are concern about our future do our job to make this place a better world to live in. The rest of us can just keep quiet. But I guess that would be difficult for some of us to do huh.

Selfish, yes it is harder to become motivated about issues don't effect ourselves so most people are somewhat guilty of it. IMHO plauge is more likely to decimate mankind than human related climate change, that will also be our own fault due to largely overpopulation.

Many of us that call shenanagians against climate change still belive in stewartship of resources. I personally want to see viable alteranatives to fossil fuels in power production. I'm less worried about the CO2 than the poisions released, even if scrubbed as they have to be taken out of solution and disposed of somehow. I want nature to be something my daughter and her children can experiance, not just read about. I don't want them to have a lower standard of living than myself however.

As far as keeping quite, well that makes you sound like a US liberal. "We know what is best for the world by our unique moral insight so the rest of you unenlightened lessers just stay out of our way and keep quite". Sorry can't do that as I am acustomed to thinking for myself.

I think we are selfish and ignorant by nature and thats probably whats going to kill off mankind just like what happen to the dinosaurs. The only difference is that it wasn't the dinosaurs fault they went extinct.

Don't think about now. The world took billions of years to be where we are. Yes, yes, it will probably take another billion years before it destroy itself, I hear you say. But why even take that chance. It could happen in the next hundred years or so. If we don't think about ourselves, at least think about the next generation who is going to inhabit this place. Are you happy to leave this world knowing your children will not have a house to live in? I think not, so why not think the same for the future generation.

Forget the argument if global warming or global cooling is happening or not. Something good will always come out of this if we just put all our mind together instead of arguing with each other over the issue.

Maybe the better way is, let some of us who are concern about our future do our job to make this place a better world to live in. The rest of us can just keep quiet. But I guess that would be difficult for some of us to do huh.

I think we are selfish and ignorant by nature and thats probably whats going to kill off mankind just like what happen to the dinosaurs. The only difference is that it wasn't the dinosaurs fault they went extinct.

Don't think about now. The world took billions of years to be where we are. Yes, yes, it will probably take another billion years before it destroy itself, I hear you say. But why even take that chance. It could happen in the next hundred years or so. If we don't think about ourselves, at least think about the next generation who is going to inhabit this place. Are you happy to leave this world knowing your children will not have a house to live in? I think not, so why not think the same for the future generation.

Forget the argument if global warming or global cooling is happening or not. Something good will always come out of this if we just put all our mind together instead of arguing with each other over the issue.

Maybe the better way is, let some of us who are concern about our future do our job to make this place a better world to live in. The rest of us can just keep quiet. But I guess that would be difficult for some of us to do huh.

OK smoke another one Bro, The world has mabey 200 years left. And man will not destroy it nor will "Mother Nature" GOD will destroy this earth and all the evil that is in it. The best you can do for your childern is to teach them how to get saved and then when the rapture comes they will be lucky enough to be spared from all the nasty stuff that GOD has planed for mankind.

That is why I do not wory about global warming. I FEAR GOD MUCH MORE
SO does that mean we should poison the earth and let ne next gen worry about it, Hell no, But we need ro be reasonable too. You lib enviormental wackjobs have got so out of control that a guy can not even build a road now days with out going around every pile of pink lizzard crap he spots along the way.

Just let me build my home without the DEQ documenting ever blade of swamp grass too. It has just got out of control.

Bluesman

Maybe the better way is, let some of us who are concern about our future do our job to make this place a better world to live in. The rest of us can just keep quiet. But I guess that would be difficult for some of us to do huh.

Sounds good to me just don't expect me to shut up when you keep asking for my money to support your ideas.

They can't tell me if its going to rain in a few weeks.
They have been WAY OFF prediciting the past 2 years hurricane seasons activity.
When we do have a hurricane they can't tell me where it will go tomorrow.

Now please tell me why I should listen to these same people tell me about whats going to happen in 100+ years from now much less pay for their research.

I see it as a research grant free for all and if the scientist can get the politicians on board then they are on the free grant money gravy train. After all the government has my money to give away on such things. Of course the results of the research will be inline with what they want the results to be. Then at the end of the reports it will always say "more research is needed," as it always says. AKA we need more grant money so we can keep our jobs.

Considering how long earth has been here and how miniscule an amount of time they are using to base all their stats on its rather ridiculous. Seems A LOT of ice melted off all on its own long before internal combustion engines were around. If the ice is melting due to rising CO2 emissions soley then we should still be covered in ice from the last ice age. Its kind of big balls to make such claims on such limited timelines when considering the time line of earth itself. If we jump everytime a sensor twitches with new laws and regs we will end up with more of the same that we have now. Stupid laws and regs that do nothing but jack things up and cost us all more that in the end do nothing to stop the problem that was originally supposed to be fixed.

Give a grant to most any scientist and you will get the results you wanted to get, especially if they know more $$$$ is to follow once the initial "results," are in.

The whole carbon credit deal is nothing but a scam of a cottage industry that Al Gore expects to profit from. When people like him and Babs who preach global warming stop flying in private jets exhausting more CO2 than I will in my life on one trip in their plane I might listen. Then again, I could never see me listening to anything those blow hards have to say short of goodbye and good ridence.


Bowman

Please, get out of the mindset where you are surrounded by disasters an calamities all around you all the time. Stop having the arrogance to believe you can "make a difference". About the bogeyman de jour under the bed; he's not real, he's not there but he does make it easier to ignore what you should be doing.

You want to live a much happier, longer and more stress-free life? You want to do something that matters? You want to make a difference in this world? Turn off your TV and cancel your news magazine subscriptions. Unsubscribe from "the sky is falling" websites. Then help the people you know, care for those who could really use your support and love the ones who miraculously have found you worth loving. Fix it so when your time comes, someone cares. That will take your mind off of this global warming idiocy.

Your future ends in (75 - your age) years. Give no thought beyond whatever that number is. You won't be there but I assure you your great-great-great grandchildren will be. The future will take care of itself, with or without your concerns, as it has for 4.6 billion years now.

There are things more important in life than this popular, vulgar and hysterical fetish. It is a type of twisted religion and you should repudiate it. Our technology is not a sin and it does not require a sacrifice to atone for it. Have no use for a medieval religion, even if it's called environmentalism, that relies on superstition, fear, scientific ignorance and economic envy that offers to cure what does not ail.

Life is sweet and the sun shines and graces you with its light. You have the choice to see it for what it is or turn everything around you into darkness, fear and crap. The experience you have on life's one circuit on the Merry Go Round will be what you made of it. There are no second rides ever.

Optimist or pessimist?

Mariss

Well said Mariss.

It's funny that every other country in tghe world basically agrees that climate change is THE issue for the next century. Tomorrow a new report is coming out. As if the one that came out a couple of months ago, from the UN wasn't enough.

I'd like to know how any of the Global Warming deniers can literally see the ice melting before their very eyes and still think the way they do. Well, not really. If you can't see what's happening with your own eyes, then I can't be bothered to care about your opinion.

Most of you are probably old enough to have children. Maybe grown children. It's interesting to me that those of you who fit that description are prepared to leave a world that closely resembles a mad max movie to those kids so you can sound authoritative without doing any actual research yourselves.

The ONLY constant is change.
Consensus is political.
Science is demonstrable, repeatable exercise of facts.
There is NO consensus of science, there MAY me a consensus of scientists who are subject error.
The best state of climate is WHAT, WHERE and FOR WHOM?
And what kind of arrogance decides to "control the weather" for his own benefit?
Or is it just another power play to gain political dominance and financial gain?

dang

1) The scientific method does not rely on consensus. Only a herd is guided by consensus. In science one right person trumps 10,000 wrong ones. Think Albert Einstein, Issac Newton, Copernicus and even Dr. William Grey .

2) Deniers; what a strange an interesting word. Religious in connotation, a word reserved for heretics and blasphemers. It does frame the context though; the argument has nothing to do with reasoned thought, rather everything to do with belief, feeling, fear and superstition.

3) "Believe as I do or else your opinion and you are not worth my consideration." This is dehumanizing and this dehumanization is the first step on a trail that leads to the worst humans beings have done. All reason and humanity ends at that trail head.

My friend, you have been manipulated. No amount of 747s or i-pods, cars, plasma TVs or CNC machines differentiate you from our ancestors who also were equally susceptible. Here's how the manipulation works: First put into your head a tremendous calamity is looming. The cause of the calamity is something you are doing and therefore you are responsible for it. You are then offered a way you can deflect the calamity by doing something personally, as an individual, to rectify it. Something like separating green waste from glass and cardboard in your trash or buying a Prius; doesn't matter.

This is the clever part. Fear leads to a desire for action and an approved action is offered. Taking that action validates what you feared is real and that only your actions can forestall the feared consequence. Now you believe in what you might have doubted or at least kept an open mind about. Sin and atonement, fear and pagan sacrifice, carbon offsets and special dispensations. This trick has been played unchanged for thousands of years.

Yes, we have two young adult children. My wife and I have taught them well about many things.

Mariss

3) "Believe as I do or else your opinion and you are not worth my consideration." This is dehumanizing and this dehumanization is the first step on a trail that leads to the worst humans beings have done. All reason and humanity ends at that trail head.

My friend, you have been manipulated. No amount of 747s or i-pods, cars, plasma TVs or CNC machines differentiate you from our ancestors who also were equally susceptible. Here's how the manipulation works: First put into your head a tremendous calamity is looming. The cause of the calamity is something you are doing and therefore you are responsible for it. You are then offered a way you can deflect the calamity by doing something personally, as an individual, to rectify it. Something like separating green waste from glass and cardboard in your trash or buying a Prius; doesn't matter.

This is the clever part. Fear leads to a desire for action and an approved action is offered. Taking that action validates what you feared is real and that only your actions can forestall the feared consequence. Now you believe in what you might have doubted or at least kept an open mind about. Sin and atonement, fear and pagan sacrifice, carbon offsets and special dispensations. This trick has been played unchanged for thousands of years.
Mariss
Exactly what skeptics are doing. Don't believe in this thing. Its a lie, its fiction and etc etc etc. Lets put it in perspective here. When we the believers feels something should be done, what ever the outcome, and here I have to say its only good outcome, affects us all whether you believe it or not. But when we have to accept what your opinions are and if everyone does that, we might as well just go along the same route and pollute the air more and more and wait till the climate starts to effects us all. Which side should I go with? Its pretty obvious isn't it?

Look at the ozone layer, its scientifically proven that CFC caused the depletion of the ozone. When countries starts to ban the use of CFCs. The ozone layer starts to rejuvenate. What further facts do we need. Its staring us right in the face. When a chemical like CFC can do such a thing. Imagine the effects of what other pollutants we put out can do.

And yes, it is fear, fear for our humankind. Fear for the result that our ignorance will produce should we go along this route of self destruction. Human being are capable of doing that.

And because you "believe" the boogie man will get you, I should give away two thirds of my income. Abandon my life style because you "feel" SOMETHING should be done whether it is right or wrong.

No, chickenlittle, I won't follow you into the cold, dark night and starve my self on the basis of your faith. It is your religion, YOU follow it. As for me, I can recognize pagan gods at a huge distance and smell a B.S. story farther than that.

By the way, the last "crisis" with the ozone layer turned out to have NOTHING to do with chlorofluorocarbons. ANOTHER scientific consensus that has been PROVEN wrong after great expense!


To listen to todays lunatics you'd expect flying saucers on the White House lawn, souls flying off to the tails of comets and maybe Farrakhan's "mother ship" to be discovered in orbit. In the bargain maybe all those inductees will be released from the black helicopters.

When "the outcome" will be destruction of the world economy you can expect THAT change to be met with armed resistance.

As I sit here with a terminal case of COPD I'm VERY interested in clean air. So lets clean up the air for the sake of clean air. We can pick up all the trash without starving. We can hunt for a real answer to the energy question without adopting a Spartan life style.

And because you "believe" the boogie man will get you, I should give away two thirds of my income. Abandon my life style because you "feel" SOMETHING should be done whether it is right or wrong.

No, chickenlittle, I won't follow you into the cold, dark night and starve my self on the basis of your faith. It is your religion, YOU follow it. As for me, I can recognize pagan gods at a huge distance and smell a B.S. story farther than that.

By the way, the last "crisis" with the ozone layer turned out to have NOTHING to do with chlorofluorocarbons. ANOTHER scientific consensus that has been PROVEN wrong after great expense!


To listen to todays lunatics you'd expect flying saucers on the White House lawn, souls flying off to the tails of comets and maybe Farrakhan's "mother ship" to be discovered in orbit. In the bargain maybe all those inductees will be released from the black helicopters.

When "the outcome" will be destruction of the world economy you can expect THAT change to be met with armed resistance.

As I sit here with a terminal case of COPD I'm VERY interested in clean air. So lets clean up the air for the sake of clean air. We can pick up all the trash without starving. We can hunt for a real answer to the energy question without adopting a Spartan life style.

jhowelb

I actually agree with you on a great number of points, the ones we disagree on don't really matter. For me, consensus is irrationality defined. Who needs to think, when we can just agree, and get along, because I'm just too much of a spineless, ballless **** to stand for something and fight if necessary. That's what consensus is. The "can't we all just get along" mentality that searches for it's "leader", with the mewling, bawling sheeple following the shepherd to the brink, and morphing into some twisted lemming, jumping into the abyss while that "leader" stands by to pick up the pieces and find a new cause to poster-boy.

I am so sick of the Armageddon view point. People are their own problems. They cause them. They live them. They make the same mistakes, in repackaged form. NEW! IMPROVED!! and just as stupid as before. But it's NEW! IMPROVED!! it can't be wrong. Psychology is science, but just because it's twisted to invade the brains of millions or billions of people sucking MY air, doesn't mean that whatever point they pontificate and regurgitate is science. Just the method of brainwash or brainwiping.

Every living creature on earth evolves...or eventually goes extinct. So when man starts making those next jarring steps into evolution...will the rest of the devolved in our species make a consensus that they are an aberration and should be destroyed to preserve "humanity"? Evolution by committee? What a frightening idea to mull.

On a lighter note...what's wrong with a Spartan lifestyle? The Spartans were the greatest warriors the world has ever seen, until they were corrupted by outside influences. Influences they allowed. Sometimes maintaining pur sang in a subculture can allow a culture to flourish.

As sad as it makes me, we view violence as a necessary evil when diplomacy fails. But it makes heroes out of common men. If those same common men displayed those acts of violence out of that environment, he is called a criminal and penned like an animal for a length of time, sometimes the remainder of his life. Violence is part of nature...we are part of nature...and violence is very much a part of us. Just as the ability to reason, and to make art. As a species we need to remember why we are top of the food chain. Violence. We may have more mental capacity than other species, but we have soft bodies, no claws or fangs. It is only because of our untold penchance for violence, a carnal bloodlust, that brought us to where we are. That violence bred an instinctual fear in every animal on land. One that is still very much present in most of the animals still alive. One that is missing in modern man, when he sits in the relative comfort of home and makes decisions that affect others around him. Only when he is confronted with violence and his life put in jeopardy does he begin to use his facilities for reason.

I do not condone tyranny. Oppressed and oppressors alike can turn to either. I do suggest that an armed society is a polite society due to the unarguable fact that people think before they speak or act when under the influence of an untimely death. I won't harm you if you don't harm me.

The tie-in is that surrendering your freedoms or rights to those who mean you harm is more evil than the evil being done to you. Man was born a fighter, and when a fight is brought to you, you must engage with the full measure you are capable. This is what has brought civilization to the high-point (for what it is) we enjoy today.

Are you familiar with the Inquisition? Of burning witches at the stake? Violence being done in the name of (insert your cause here) against other men is evil. Violence done in response to those who do violence to you, is to establish balance and order to the chaos that flourishes.

We only seek to live. We do not have an agenda. We are not trying to convert. We do not seek to punish outsiders and reward those who have been loyal. So why do the neo-greenies seek to push an agenda, in which there is no room for anything other than their ceremonies & litagies. To establish a new world order that will destroy the middle class and further seperate the poor and the wealthy. Why are so many of the future slave-class willing to drink the kool-aid with bright-eyed enthusiasm?

Well, that was very flowery prose.
A consensus in scientific terms is when a group of ->scientists<- use scientific method to reach a conclusion which is published, reviewed and then agreed upon. Scientists live to bash each other's theories. Would ya'll have me believe then, that all these great minds have suddenly stopped nit picking with each other in order to follow the leader?

Also, how could the ultra rich better corner everyone else than to downgrade any new energy source, ya know aside from oil. I should, from now on refer to oil as peak oil, because it's very nearly gone all together.
I'm also not sure how multiplying the energy sources available to us, and thereby creating untold numbers of new jobs would further separate the rich and the poor. Oh, and did I mention that Oil is sold to us by people who HATE US?

Me thinks that the flowery prose hides within it a lack of consideration of these merely semi literate, but obvious points. You don't make soap for a living do you WYLD?

The simple truth is, due to the problem of grants being hard to come by for the scientific community and goverments eager to obtain more money from the public, it is a bandwagon that could benefit both parties.


Those scientists you may call "Maverick" are those men and woman who have integrity and honour but unfortunatly very little power.

Dear cjmerlincnc,

Absolutely..,

Look at this " policy document "

http://www.countryguardian.net/warm_words.pdf

Page 25, Treating Climate Change as Beyond Argument

Best wishes,

Martin

Dang,
Pull your head out of it. There isn't a consensus of scientists, only those nursing on the government teat. (our tax money) There have been no scientific methods applied, no repeatable experiments.

Not even observation bears out this trash masquerading as science, for example: " 50 million years ago the temperature averaged a full 20 degrees higher than today."

This is an observation by those same scientists. Was mankind also responsible for that? How about the melting of any one of the ice ages?

The above indicated "paper" has some VERY telling passages.

".........need to treat the argument as having been won. This means simply behaving as if climate change exists and is real, and that individual actions are effective. This must be done by stepping away from the ‘advocates debate’ described earlier, rather than by stating and re-stating these things as fact.
The ‘facts’ need to be treated as being so taken-for-granted that they need not be spoken. The certainty of the Government’s new climate-change slogan – ‘Together this generation will tackle climate change’ (Defra 2006) – gives an example of this approach. It constructs, rather than claims, its own factuality.

But go ahead and have another glass of cool aid, after all it IS your religion.

I'm un-subsribing from this thread.

Whether global warming is real and whether the polar ice caps are melting because we are emitting too much co2 or from deforesting the equator or from natural causes, we all know that we are polluting this world and causing the extinction of species on a massive scale. I know that I have thrown out enough manmade garbage in the course of my 35 years to cover 10 acres and then some. All that while recycling everything I can. Each of my neighbors does the same thing whether it's two bags a week or four or ten. The air is not good in the city(pick a city). The water is not good in rural areas downstream from the city. The oil that we burn also spills into the ocean sometimes so the beaches we treasure aren't any good either.
Mariss, as a person who lives because of the earth not on it, I have to say I was a bit offended by this statement:
My friend, you have been manipulated. No amount of 747s or i-pods, cars, plasma TVs or CNC machines differentiate you from our ancestors who also were equally susceptible. Here's how the manipulation works: First put into your head a tremendous calamity is looming. The cause of the calamity is something you are doing and therefore you are responsible for it. You are then offered a way you can deflect the calamity by doing something personally, as an individual, to rectify it. Something like separating green waste from glass and cardboard in your trash or buying a Prius; doesn't matter.
I also happen to drive a Prius and also happen to be the kind of guy who separates green waste from glass and cardboard. The reason I like machining is because of the technology that it makes possible. If you can dream something you can build it. Like a Prius for example,which might just save you some money on gas, further the advancement of technology, reduce our country's dependance on oil, and save you from sucking on your own fumes at red lights. The power to build machines such as automobiles and warheads brings great responsibility. Mariss, I hope you are running your company in a responsible way. Anyone who owns a business has an ideal opportunity to make a difference today and tomorrow. And maybe even impress a few potential customers along the way.

Had it not been for fossil fuels the industrial revolution would never have occurred. You owe every thing you have, even your very existence to the discovery and utilization of them.

Any one offended by Mariss' statement is LOOKING for something to be offended about.

Didn't mean to hurt your feelings,Dang! Just wanted to make you think.

Grinderdust,

Please don't take offense at Mariss' statements. If you must take offense at any statements made here, take offense at mine. You see, Mariss is correct, although it doesn't "feel" that way to you when you look out on those 10 acres of non-recyclable trash, and hop into your Prius for a trip around the block. If every single one of us, alive on this planet today, were to only use our personal vehicles for trips that other people weren't making, or that public transit won't approach, if we were all to only purchase what was absolutely necessary, if we were to stop clear-cutting our rainforests, if we were to stop strip mining, and drilling for oil, and building new subdivisions and luxury condo units, if we only did what has been suggested by every "liberal" media print outlet from Mother Earth News to Mother Jones and all points in between...what would we have? The greatest economic disaster ever known. What would everyone do for a living & how would they collect their wages? Or even their supplies? Would any of this stop the next super-fire from devouring California's expensive summer homes? Would this halt or counteract the "demon" CO2?

While I agree that man is foolish and brazen with his use of technology to "fix" problems that never really existed, I don't think we should chuck it all in the waste bin and redact 10,000 years of history. Do I like the fact that compounds from Teflon are in ALL available drinking sources currently known? Absolutely not. Do I like the fact that triclosan, the ingredient in "anti-bacterial" hand soap is hitching a ride on our DNA, and is impossible to remove from our drinking water? Would I mention it if I did? Do I like the fact that big "agra" managed to lose track of 30 million bushels of genetically modified corn that then made it's way into the human food supply chain? Come on...

I didn't make those decisions. I am not responsible for the actions of others. I will not do penance for others' sins. Be careful with what actions you demand of others, lest the sins of the fathers be visited on the sons. Sound familiar? Religious undertones. You bet. And that is basically the phrase that is being repackaged & bantered about by the neo-greenies as a scare-tactic. Hypocrisy knows no bounds. Were that it did.

You see, 10,000 years ago, when the last ice age was still going on, attempting to recede, and our ancestors lived in clans and caves, we would overhunt an area until we were forced to move on in search of greener pastures. When the Native Americans of ancient times were hunting the bison, they would set fire to the prairie to make the bison stampede off a cliff. While they were busy butchering the dead & dying herd at the bottom of a ravine, that fire was ravaging the prairies, sometimes burning for months. Don't think that man's destructive capabilities are only available to modern man with modern tools. We are a very clever lot who have been "harming" mother earth for a very long time. Earth abides. When she tires of us, she will shrug her shoulders and shake us off. The few humans who survive will have to rethink their ways, or will go extinct like so many other species have. Only we have the ability to learn from our mistakes, through reason. Abandoning reasoning has no benefit for our kind.

Dear jhowelb,

http://www.countryguardian.net/warm_words.pdf

Well, when I first read it, I thought it must be a spoof.
It is not.
It is a paper of breath-taking cynicism that attempts to circumvent any kind of scientific debate.
Joseph Goebbels would be proud that the art of this kind of propaganda has survived so long after his death.

Best wishes,

Martin

Yes, just to surface as a plan to subject mankind to another myth. (super race/man made climate change)

Same dream, (global domination), same "scientific" basis but this time perpetrated by those on the left and still "the big lie" repeated often enough and by "authority" to make believers.

The difference is that this time there are many to cry "foul"!

BTW, I didn't find the web page!!

BTW, I didn't find the web page!!


Dear jhowelb,

Which?

Best wishes,

Martin

Jhowelb, Had it not been for fossil fuels the industrial revolution would never have occurred. I believe the steam engine may still have been used without coal. I also read somewhere that the diesel engine was designed to run on vegetable oil. I've seen many a lathe that was designed to run on steam power and refitted to run on electric power as the technology became available.
You owe every thing you have, even your very existence to the discovery and utilization of them.
I can't imagine that mankind owes it's very existence to the events that have shaped the last 150 years or so.
WYLD,
what would we have? The greatest economic disaster ever known. What would everyone do for a living & how would they collect their wages? Or even their supplies? Many of us have found ways to benefit from the earths riches without exploiting them.
I am not responsible for the actions of others. I will not do penance for others' sins. Be careful with what actions you demand of others,
I have not demanded any actions that I am aware of. I am Sorry to everyone If It came out that way. I am only suggesting that we can be responsible,and it doesn't require a great deal of sacrifice. Sometimes it even has immediate benefits.(like a car that pays for itself in fuel savings) By the way, every breath you take and every time you go for a drink, you are doing penance for the sins of others.
we would overhunt an area until we were forced to move on in search of greener pastures.
This may have been more of a survival issue than the decision of whether to turn on the central air or what car to drive.

We are a very clever lot who have been "harming" mother earth for a very long time.If we were so clever, we would make better use of our technology to stop harming the world we live in.

Bait and switch, exaggerate, obfuscate, redirect, misdirect, deny something that was not directed to you, take from context and attack the punctuation rater than the obvious intended point.

All OLD tricks and not working here.

Electricity generated by what? Steam generated by what? The forests of Europe were striped to make steel and steam.

One person or even a generation doesn't equate to "mankind".

While you benefit from, I on the other hand am defined as an "exploiter"?


Martin, why can't you find the url you placed in your post?

http://www.countryguardian.net/warm_words.pdf

I am not trying to offend anyone or be offended here. I am not trying to take things out of context. I am just giving my opinion. I truly believe that we can live in a better world without sacrificing our comfort or our economy. We simply must think about the things we are doing before we do them. That would be good policy mo matter what. I think we can all agree that we are doing damage and not all of that damage is necessary to our comfort. Whatever level of luxury you desire in life, there are still little things you can do and choices you can make to make the world a better place. If you still feel as though you need to trash the world and the people who are trying to show you what is going on with the world then feel free to flame away. By the way, some of you sound as if you are advocating the limitless use of resources for the short term financial benefit and the comfort of those who are fortunate enough to be at the right place at the right time.

FINALLY, an element of common sense.
"I truly believe that we can live in a better world without sacrificing our comfort or our economy. "
The USA leads the world in cleaning our messes. Can we do better? Yes and we can encourage the third world to a cleaner path.

When it is economically feasible another major source of energy will become predominate.

There are those who want to scuttle atomic, hydro-electric and fossil.
Even wind energy proponents say NIMBY (Ted Kennedy et al).

My God, we can't go back to the stone age!!

WYLD,
Many of us have found ways to benefit from the earths riches without exploiting them.

I have not demanded any actions that I am aware of. I am Sorry to everyone If It came out that way. I am only suggesting that we can be responsible,and it doesn't require a great deal of sacrifice. Sometimes it even has immediate benefits.(like a car that pays for itself in fuel savings) By the way, every breath you take and every time you go for a drink, you are doing penance for the sins of others.

If we were so clever, we would make better use of our technology to stop harming the world we live in.

Grinderdust...some of that circular and "can't see the forest for the trees" logic that I love so well. What is the added premium for the privilege to purchase a Prius? Ie, without state or federal subsidies to the manufacturers and purchasers. And what pray-tell will we do with all those lead-acid batteries in hybrids when they have reached their terminal service life? You're telling me that you have to purchase a Hollywood "image" car to conserve fuel, or to get great fuel economy? A VW Beetle circa '65 managed 45 mpg...and what does the Toyota Prius manage? With it's whiz-bang technology? Please, come back with something that has some real meat to it, I'm tired of chewing on synth-meat aka tofu.

Bleeding Christ nailed to a ships-mast, since when did CO2 become a pollutant? Plant more trees. Stop clear-cutting. Stop letting 3rd world countries violate the earth in their goal to become 1st world superpowers. Carbon sequestration, carbon-offsets...

How about a real solution? We stop importing from China & India. We stop helping out every 3rd world nation in the world. We let them starve to death from the impending famines and breed themselves to instability. When the earth no longer has to support 6 Billion humans, all of this nonsense will come to light. I shouldn't have to lower my quality of life because Habib Singh and Charlie Xang can't provide for their offspring. And I shouldn't have to turn off my lights, because the countries they live in are consuming quanities of fuel that were undreamable even in the heyday of American gluttony. I shouldn't have to sacrifice so others can say "so sorry" and continue on with their idiotic ways.

The problem isn't just with the propaganda, it's the solutions to a problem that has no definable structure. Global warming is the equivalent of seafoam. Give me something with a discernable shape, a skeleton, and a neural pathway. When I can "see" that, I'll be willing to play ball with all the looney tune ad-libs that pour out of ignorant frothing mouths.

I think we should change the name of this forum to something like "environmental interests" or hopefully something way better. The words Global Warming have become politically incorrect. There is so much debate about the exact effect of our impact that we are missing the impact itself. As far as living in a better world goes, my hybrid car is a pretty nice car in general. It seems to sacrifice nothing and even gain some. As machinists, we hold the key to developing the ideas that make other energy sources possible and economically feasable. I certainly don't want to go back to stone tools

So you drive a Pious... sorry a Prius? just a little joke........actually which one do you have?

Wyld, To answer your questions. A Prius costs somwhere around $25,000 base for a new one. Alot cheaper than a Hummer last time I checked. My state no longer offers anything to anyone for buying a prius. My prius happens to be a pre owned model from last year and I could probably sell it for more than I paid. The batteries are nickel metal hydride and there are recycling facilities available for them.They also have a 100,000 mile warranty. Since I live about as far from hollywood as you can get (or any major city for that matter) I can assure you that my purchase was made for sound financial reasons. The whiz bang technology in a prius can blow the doors off a '65 beetle while holding 5 passengers and their cargo at a level of safety and comfort that surpasses most autos in it's price range. It usually gets even better mileage in town. Plus it doesn't leave an oil spot on the driveway or make that ratty air cooled boxer sound.
That whiz bang technology is also an interesting topic of discussion. Especially the power split device which is an amazing use of mechanics to control two motors and an engine. Very ingenious, very few moving parts.

Yes, I run my business in a responsible way. I design the best product I know how, we manufacture right here in the USA and sell them at a price the Chinese find acceptable, we ship on time and we support our product after you buy it. I am responsible to make sure our lowest paid employee makes $35 an hour so they can raise a family without mom having to earn an income. It makes a difference to me if I have done my best or not for what I do and to those that work for me.

Is that what you meant by "responsible" and "make a difference"?

Mariss

I can appreciate what you are doing Mariss, I would never doubt the quality of your product or your responsibility to your employees. The kind of jobs your company keeps in the USA are priceless these days. I am just hoping that your idea of responsibility doesn't end there. Small changes in leaders like yourself lead to a big difference in the world.

All I can say is that change in this regard will be good. How much worse a situation is it going to be for us anyway? If climate change eventually is disproved, the legacy of that would be better technologies for all our benefit. And if it is real, at least we have already started the ball rolling on finding a solution (if we have not found one) that will help us eventually. So in my humble opinion, it is good what is being done right now by some environmentalists.

I don't think anyone in the right mind would want to spend countless hours away from families and friends to decipher the truth about global warming. What benefit will they get out of it. None that I can think of. If you ask me, it will the last thing I would want to do. I have better things to do in my life. But isn't it a great feeling to know that others are concern and working on our behalf?

So give them some credits is all I say. And for those of us that are skeptical, sit back and watch, you might just be surprised. And if at the end of the day its all a farce, you can always come forward and shout out "I told you so" and grin.

For me, the problem is real. Be it caused by human, geology, earth evolution and whatever terms anyone care to coin for this problem, it is still a problem. Are we doomed? Yes, we are doomed if we don't do anything.

As American Express would say it, don't leave home without it. Bring an umbrella before it rains. Prevention is better than cure. Don't wait until you need to got to the toilet to look for a roll of toilet paper. etc. etc. etc. etc.....

Martin, why can't you find the url you placed in your post?

http://www.countryguardian.net/warm_words.pdf

Dear jhowelb,

Sorry, I'm not sure which link you are searching for.

Is it this?

http://www.ippr.org/publicationsandreports/publication.asp?id=485

Best wishes,

Martin

"That whiz bang technology is also an interesting topic of discussion."

Yup, electricity to charge it generated by burning coal or oil. The mechanical energy loss by the time it enters the car has to approach 75%. You have to account for the energy to make the batteries and all the whiz bang clap trap to make that lemon tick.

Jhowelb, The electricity to charge the batteries in hybrid cars does come indirectly from oil, I won't argue that. The oil (gasoline) is used to get the car moving just like any other car. the prius uses the oil more efficiently by using the atkinson cycle rather than the otto cycle used in most four stroke engines. When it is time to slow the car the whiz bang clap trap kicks in and uses the kinetic energy of the vehicle to charge the batteries with energy that otherwise would go to waste. The mechanical loss is indeed high but the stored energy is still significant. When descending hills it is downright amazing. I believe the energy reqired to make the batteries is offset by the energy saved in building a smaller engine and a mechanically simpler transmission (the power split device). The technology will only get better. I am hoping that when and if I replace my batteries, I will be upgrading as well. Lastly, Toyota is the dominating automaker of the known universe. They are not known for making lemons. What's under your wallet?

Wyld, To answer your questions. A Prius costs somwhere around $25,000 base for a new one. Alot cheaper than a Hummer last time I checked. My state no longer offers anything to anyone for buying a prius. My prius happens to be a pre owned model from last year and I could probably sell it for more than I paid. The batteries are nickel metal hydride and there are recycling facilities available for them.They also have a 100,000 mile warranty. Since I live about as far from hollywood as you can get (or any major city for that matter) I can assure you that my purchase was made for sound financial reasons. The whiz bang technology in a prius can blow the doors off a '65 beetle while holding 5 passengers and their cargo at a level of safety and comfort that surpasses most autos in it's price range. It usually gets even better mileage in town. Plus it doesn't leave an oil spot on the driveway or make that ratty air cooled boxer sound.
That whiz bang technology is also an interesting topic of discussion. Especially the power split device which is an amazing use of mechanics to control two motors and an engine. Very ingenious, very few moving parts.

Nickel/metal-hydride batteries are far more toxic to the environment than lead-acid batteries. Nickel is a heavy metal that congregates in the liver and brain. How pray tell, will you take your 6-8 batteries to the recycling center? Even our local recycling facilities load everything up at railhead and ship it east. 100,000 mile warranty...for 6-8 batteries that cost more to manufacture, purchase and dispose of than the lead acid battery in my Toyota Corolla which also has a 100,000 mile warranty.

Seems like a winning theory...let's continue. A hybrid mode vehicle is designed for in town driving, not highway. That's where the benefits of the technology shine. So you need a car that costs almost $30,000 to manufacture (Toyota's details...I can give you a website when I get home. They take a loss on every Prius with the hopes that the technology is viable for mass production...) that weighs approximately 400 lbs more than my car (same manufacturer) to travel to the grocery store & WalMart? Not to be a smartass, but my Corolla gets almost 30 mpg cruising around town. I deliver pizzas as a second job, and my commission for 2 nights' runs pays for a tank of gas. Commission...not tips. I digress...

I agree with you that the Prius is more driveable in today's conditions than a vintage Beetle. But to say that the Prius is better because it costs more and is more sophisticated is to buy into marketing and brand image. A vehicle is transport. Nothing more, nothing less. It is not a penis extension, or your vehicular aura to the rest of the world.

Back to that whiz-bang technology...I know that it seems really cool...but why would you need TWO electric motors in hybrid mode? What's the point? Most 48V DC motors in the size range that motivate the Prius are torque monsters...producing more torque in fact than the 4-cylinder engine does at its peak. Torque is what moves you down the road...so again...why 2? And as for very few moving parts in the system...it's still a LOT more than in my Toyota Corolla. The majority of the system is electronics...controllers & sensors & software. Something like 100 lbs. more electronic components than are in my car...because I need a rolling PC. The only thing that would make the Prius better is if it were powered by Windows, and experienced a system crash during rush hour traffic.

I'm not knocking you Grinderdust, I just don't see how the Prius is a better car for the environment than my Corolla. And I also don't see how anyone in the world has the right to judge someone for purchasing a Hummer with money that they earned. That's what a free market allows for. When I have to purchase cookie-cutter clothes, components, houses & cars, because that's what "they" say is appropriate...where will innovation and research come into play? The old standard will be quite adequate thank you, we get by just fine with the ACME 200JX, my dad had one and I think it's quite the car. I loathe the day that the world echos the sentiments in books like 1984 and Brave New World. Hell, even Player Piano scares the bejeezus out of me. But that's what socialist agendas and praising homogeneity will bring. Guaranteed. A world of grey uniforms and pale faces. There is no room for individuality and alternatives in the path you suggest. For that alone, I'm willing to forego my winter heating bill, in exchange for that lovely tropical breeze y'all say is a-blowing.

So in my humble opinion, it is good what is being done right now by some environmentalists.... So give them some credits is all I say.

I humbly disagree: Environmetalists with too much political power will cause more harm than good - look at what foolish policies have been adopted in the name of saving the planet: http://www.cnczone.com/forums/showthread.php?t=45545 Basic math skills should be a requirement for anyone in government.

All I can say is that change in this regard will be good... How much worse a situation is it going to be for us anyway? If climate change eventually is disproved, the legacy of that would be better technologies for all our benefit. Beware of unintended consequences: See post #14 at http://www.cnczone.com/forums/showthread.php?t=46615&page=2

Every change produces a spectrum of consequences ranging from bad to indifferent to good. You get into a car wreck. It's bad for you and your car. It's good for the doctor and the mechanic that fixes you both up and it's of no importance to the person that reads about it in the paper.

This is true for every change except global warming. Every consequence is bad with global warming. That sets off my BS alarm and it's ringing loud.

What I'm hoping for is the claims get more and more outrageous. Global warming will turn the earth into a boiling ball of lava, the oceans will rise 5,000 ft and cause everyone to get acne and bad breath. Then this fever will run its course and then we can move on to the next calamity. I still have my parka for the past and coming global cooling.

Mariss

Nickel/metal-hydride batteries are far more toxic to the environment than lead-acid batteries. Nickel is a heavy metal that congregates in the liver and brain. How pray tell, will you take your 6-8 batteries to the recycling center?
The whole point of recycling the batteries is to keep the toxins out of the environment and the batteries will probably get to their destination by oil power. In case you have forgotten gasoline and it's combustion byproducts are also deadly toxins.
Seems like a winning theory...let's continue. A hybrid mode vehicle is designed for in town driving, not highway. That's where the benefits of the technology shine.

The prius still gets 42+ on the highway thanks to it's atkinson cycle engine and great aerodymics.
So you need a car that costs almost $30,000 to manufacture (Toyota's details...I can give you a website when I get home. They take a loss on every Prius with the hopes that the technology is viable for mass production...) that weighs approximately 400 lbs more than my car (same manufacturer) to travel to the grocery store & WalMart?
Toyota no longer takes a loss on the prius. they actually are turning a profit. They did that to show the skeptics the benefits of the technology. I didn't buy the car to drive to the store and back. I bought it because I drive 45,000 miles a year in the course of my work and it is safe, comfortable and saves me money.
Not to be a smartass, but my Corolla gets almost 30 mpg cruising around town. I deliver pizzas as a second job, and my commission for 2 nights' runs pays for a tank of gas. Commission...not tips. I digress... Not to be a wiseguy but my Prius gets 45+ mpg in town, which is half again better than your corolla and it is indeed heavier which is an advantage if I should ever collide with a '65 beetle.
I agree with you that the Prius is more driveable in today's conditions than a vintage Beetle. But to say that the Prius is better because it costs more and is more sophisticated is to buy into marketing and brand image. A vehicle is transport. Nothing more, nothing less. It is not a penis extension, or your vehicular aura to the rest of the world.
I swear I only bought the car because I needed the best transportation I could find.
As for it being an extension of my penis, I plead the fifth.
Back to that whiz-bang technology...I know that it seems really cool...but why would you need TWO electric motors in hybrid mode? What's the point? Most 48V DC motors in the size range that motivate the Prius are torque monsters...
The reason the prius uses two motors is because of the way the power split device works to control the speed of the wheels vs engine.And as for very few moving parts in the system...it's still a LOT more than in my Toyota Corolla. The majority of the system is electronics...controllers & sensors & software. Something like 100 lbs. more electronic components than are in my car..
If you read up on the subject you will find that the power split device takes the place of your conventional transmission and actually does have alot fewer moving parts. Electronics are not moving parts,and don't forget the prius is drive by wire which also eliminates alot of mechanical components.
I'm not knocking you Grinderdust, I just don't see how the Prius is a better car for the environment than my Corolla.I hope the time I have taken to answer your questions will help you see how it might be. And I also don't see how anyone in the world has the right to judge someone for purchasing a Hummer with money that they earned. If you still want a hummer, I won't judge you. Just remember the hummer won't extend your "aura" either and it costs alot more to buy and drive. I'm just doing what works for me.When I have to purchase cookie-cutter clothes, components, houses & cars, because that's what "they" say is appropriate...where will innovation and research come into play? The hybrids are anything but cookie cutter. They are the bold standouts in the industry and are exactly the kind of innovation and research I like to put my money into. Heck, I am going to buy a car anyways so why not?

Mariss, I for one am boycotting the phrases "global warming" and "climate change" because they are broad and too far distant for most people to understand. If you can't see the consequences of environmental irresponsibility in your own backyard the just look up "eastern garbage patch" and you will see it on a more global scale. Just because you are in a comfortable position and can't feel it, doesn't mean pollution doesn't affect someone less fortunate every day. Only the wealthy and the polluters are feeling the bad consequences of the environmental legislation. The rest of humanity stands to benefit.

My dear friend, please don't throw that "wealth" thing around. I remember in the late '60s my eyes stinging from smog so thick you could look directly at the sun at 4PM. I cannot even remember the last smog alert here in Southern California. I remember being told as a kid in Ohio not to set step in the Miami river for all the industrial effluent it carried. People now fish in it and eat what they catch. Both wealthy and poor eyes stung and skin itched and mine were not wealthy.

So much real progress has been made and 99% of the problems have been repaired. Don't say things aren't better unless you are too young to remember when they were much worse. That leaves 1% and it's in the region of diminishing returns.

I offer for your consideration the ROHS debacle. In return for eliminating a minuscule percentage of the lead used in the world, a completely inferior production technique has been mandated for electronics manufacturers. Components have to be stressed at 50C higher temperatures, the resulting solder joints are clearly inferior and reliability is compromised. When something fails, the entire unit must be discarded now because ROHS renders rework to replace a component too difficult. Yes, you can eat solder paste now but your landfills are filling up with unrepairable electronics.

Products that once were repaired are now discarded because few care to learn the skills to do that. Repairing something requires far less resources and energy than it took to make it originally. That's "environmentally friendly", "green", "responsible", "makes a difference" and all the other enviro-cliches.

People who used to go into the service trades and become electronic technicians now yearn to become environmental scientists. That is much easier than having to learn something difficult like math or common scientific logic. Now all you have to do is "feel" or "believe", wring your hands and insist that the dwindling supply of the technically educated produce a solution; after all, if you can imagine it, it must be easy.

That remaining 1% is at the mercy of unintended consequences. It will increase to a much bigger number if we dismantle our technological society. Low technology is dirty technology and all the billions of people will have no choice but to use it. Unless of course you eliminate people from the earth. Recently some of the greatest Environmental Philosophers have seriously proposed exactly that. It's nice they tip their hand to show just how spiritually degenerate and nihilist the movement is becoming.

Mariss

What on earth is an "Atkinson Cycle" engine and how does it differ from an Otto Cycle?

Geof...here are a few of the "interesting" take offs on the spark-ignition internal combustion engine...

http://www.answers.com/topic/atkinson-cycle

http://www.answers.com/Miller%20cycle

http://www.me.berkeley.edu/cal/HCCI/

Geof...here are a few of the "interesting" take offs on the spark-ignition internal combustion engine...

Thanks WYLD. I know the mechanism from way back but didn't know it was called Atkinson.

And man will not destroy it nor will "Mother Nature" GOD will destroy this earth and all the evil that is in it. The best you can do for your childern is to teach them how to get saved and then when the rapture comes they will be lucky enough to be spared from all the nasty stuff that GOD has planed for mankind.
Bluesman

Pirates to the rescue.

My god, the FSM has touched me with his noodly appendage and I have been healed. Global warming is really a matter of not enough pirates. It is a fact that as pirate numbers have diminished, world temperatures have gone up.

Every night I clasp my hands and ask the noodly one for another day of annointed olive oil and garlic. Then I say, "Ramen" in ending and shut my eyes for a great nights sleep.

Don't forget to talk like a pirate. You too can help avert global warming.


Silly me, to think CO2 has nothing to do with it, and it's just a pissed off invisible friend after all. Why, I'm powerless to do a thing. Glad I have a clear concience that I'm not screwing my children's futures.

I also happen to drive a Prius....which might just save you some money on gas,...

How far do you have to drive a Prius before you break even with the equivalent non-hybrid Corrola or Yaris model and start "saving money"?

to hell and back :-)'

I had to read this entire two pages to come up to full speed. Everyone seems to have locked into their own arguments and no longer are swayed one way or another. A prius on the face looks like a great way to go. Less visible polution, so it has to be right, right? Hmmm. Charge the batteries with electricity, where does it come from? How is it made? How efficiently is it made? BTU to BTU, the Prius isn't all that efficient. Heat losses for the steam, line losses, transformer losses... Unless it is derived from Nuclear energy, CO2 and other bad elements are tossed into the air. Acid rain anyone? Ever go east and see the damaged forests from the acid rain? A Prius is on par with Fuel cells. Different way to store energy, not really all that efficient when all things are considered.

Mariss, Global warming is happening. Its sad that so much bad science preceeded it, and that there is such a huge movement to naysay it. My degree is one in subterfuge. There are agencies that do nothing more than pay people to come in and bombard websites with their form of propoganda. I mention this because there are a few posters with VERY high post numbers that have done nothing but posted in the Global Warming forum. I can't help but question their motives. You never see them give sources for the studies they quote.

My respect keeps going up for you when I read you pay your workers not just a living wage, but a wage they can hold their heads up like men and women. I just don't agree with your views on this issue. Your ROHR(?) compliance argument is a good one but falls short whn you say landfills are filling with broken electronics. Long before they break they become obsolete, and we seem to always want the newest, flashiest gizmo out there. I don't see broken, I see old, and old isn 't even old anymore.

What is hurting us more than anything else is the rampant consumerism we have embraced. It fuels the enegy needs, it fuels the polution from manufacture, it causes more grief than good.

Dynosor, I don't know how much a yaris or corolla costs, but I will try to shed some light on your question. I'm assuming by break even you mean make up the difference between the price of the cars. Since I was in the market for a car anyways and the prius is not what I would call an expensive car, I started saving money the first time I drove past a gas station. My winter car, a '98 Outback wagon, cost alot more new than the prius so everything is relative. It also should be noted that the prius is a top quality, safe ride and has a very high resale value. This car also really puts out when driven hard because it is always in the right gear. It never lugs when you floor it.

Last time I filled up, gas was $3.18 a gallon. Assuming gas stays at that price (which it won't) at 46 mpg (my real and verified lifetime average for the prius, driving hard) It will take 2,174 gallons of fuel to go 100,000 miles and cost $6,913. If your car averages 25 mpg in the real world (which is a stretch even for a honda believe me I know) it will take 4000 gallons of fuel and cost you $12,720. Since my prius will soon round the 100,000 mile mark I have saved about $5,807 on the cost of the fuel alone. It is my belief that the environmental savings is worth much more. The impact of manufacturing, shipping, storing and burning nearly 2000 gallons of fuel is much more than making and disposing of the batteries. In a couple of years I will trade up for the next generation prius and enjoy even better fuel economy and power thanks to the lithium ion batteries they are planning to use. The new batteries will also be easier on the environment.

MrWild, The prius does not get its power from a plug. It uses it's own kinetic energy by using a generator to slow the car and store energy that would otherwise be wasted on friction brakes. It also shuts off the engine when you take your foot off the gas, and uses a thermos to bottle hot coolant and keeep the engine warmed up for less emissions. A Prius is on par with Fuel cells. Different way to store energy, not really all that efficient when all things are considered.When all things are considered it is about the most efficient option available at this time. If there is something better I would love to drive it so please let me know.
What is hurting us more than anything else is the rampant consumerism we have embraced. It fuels the enegy needs, it fuels the polution from manufacture, it causes more grief than good.I couldn't agree more. If everyone only used what they needed, we wouldn't have such a mess. Also manufacturers should be held responsible for the end life disposal of the products they make. Plastic is great but it's permanent, and should not be used to make goods that are used once and tossed. It is also not as recyclable as some people think. I also agree with what you are saying to Mariss. Lead in the workplace and in the environment is not a good thing and the laws may be hurting his wallet but It may improve the health of his employees, which is priceless. I believe the technology will catch up and may just lead to a better process in the end. The only thing that puzzles me is that they use a ton of lead making car batteries and such so why is that not a big deal? Why pick on one industry and not the other? The only reason I can see is because you absolutely can't make a lead acid battery without the lead. Electronics on the other hand seem to be pretty reliable without the lead, even if it costs a little more to manufacture.

I apologize to everyone for hijacking this thread. It all started with one little post. I guess If I have to defend my decision to buy a hybrid car, recycle and reduce waste, and live a clean life that my children may learn and appreciate, I will.

where is the episode on the prius of south park when you need it. by the way, 10000 mile already! how long is your commute?

[QUOTE=MrWild;368694]There are agencies that do nothing more than pay people to come in and bombard websites with their form of propoganda. I mention this because there are a few posters with VERY high post numbers that have done nothing but posted in the Global Warming forum. I can't help but question their motives.

MrWild,

You are brilliant! You have noticed something I completely missed. Something smelled funny here but you put the finger on it; posters whose names I haven't seen anywhere else. You were the one to notice it.

If you are right, we all may be the unwelcome recipients of an outreach program to educate us technical savages into the right way of thinking. Think of it as a Mission Outpost erected amongst the heathen to attend to their global warming spiritual needs.

How do we know if it's true or not? We do research! The holiday weekend is coming up and I just set a mission for myself. I will compare names against posts. Any name that has even one coherent CNC-related technical post will pass. The working assumption is the purported missionaries are not technical people and wouldn't know a mill from a lathe; they live in a more spiritual realm.

I'll be doing this for my own amusement. I have no interest in "outing" or embarrassing individuals and I never would because it's unkind. I'm only interested to see if there is a trend and I'll only be doing what anyone else can if they wish.

Let's see what happens. I'll tabulate the aggregate results.

Mariss

4thseal, It's not so much the commute,my office is at the bottom of my stairs. It's the field work. I drive all over five counties doing real estate appraisal. And to think I gave up the predictable gloom of a cozy machine shop for this! More money = more stress.

i live in s cal and i thought i drive great deal.i hope you have a nice stereo!

Mariss,

Please don't get me wrong. I respect you as a person, as a fellow member of CNCzone and a friend in this interesting thing we call machining. But I have to ask why apart from you thinking that you will lose your earning and rights to the government if they are to impose such a regulation to control climate change, would you be so against what is being done.

Of course there are bad scientists and environmentalists but there are many more good ones who do this for the sake of mankind. As much as it is a pessimistic view some of us hold in regards to GW, but it is as much a pessimistic view you hold of these scientists, government and environmentalists. If what you believe is true of these people, we are f&*ked either way. Is that what you are saying? We are damned if we do and we are damned if we don't? I prefer to do something then just sit back. Wouldn't you?

alexccmeister, I do know your post wasn't directed to me but I must respond.

The most fearful words ever spoken; "I'm from the Government and I'm here to help you."

Just take a look in any Social Security or DMV office and you will see government excellence at work.

How many "good" environmental scientists do you really know and what makes you think that they are doing this for the sake of mankind?

Why must we "DO SOMETHING!"? The sky isn't falling! Chill out, we have a far greater problem to tackle in the form of Islamic radicals who want us all dead!

There are agencies that do nothing more than pay people to come in and bombard websites with their form of propoganda. I mention this because there are a few posters with VERY high post numbers that have done nothing but posted in the Global Warming forum. I can't help but question their motives. .

Dear MrWild,

How can I become one of them?

Well, I wish I could say that I've been hanging around in underground parking lots, in the early hours, waiting for a thick brown envelope stuffed with cash from a geezer employed by those wicked oil companies.

Believe me, I need their cash.

Since you mentioned it, any chance of posting any evidence that these organised and prostituted people exist????

Read post #20, and go to page 25.

Therein you will discover the true depth of cynicism as regards the "Climate Change" debate.



Best wishes,

Martin

alexccmeister, I do know your post wasn't directed to me but I must respond.

The most fearful words ever spoken; "I'm from the Government and I'm here to help you."

Just take a look in any Social Security or DMV office and you will see government excellence at work.

How many "good" environmental scientists do you really know and what makes you think that they are doing this for the sake of mankind?

Why must we "DO SOMETHING!"? The sky isn't falling! Chill out, we have a far greater problem to tackle in the form of Islamic radicals who want us all dead!
Government everywhere is the same. Not just in the states. You try to check out the government offices where I am from. People taking their sweet time doing things. Giving looks as if they are the lord al'mighty. And believe me when I say they even cook noodles inside their closed cubicles during break time. The smell just drifts all over the office.

I agree though that the government has alot of agendas beside trying to do something good. Bush's administration (and many other around the world) is all about self interests (guns and oil). Look at the supply of food and weapons to the troops in the middle east, all belong to people in the bush admin. People like Dick Cheney should have been kicked out long ago. Bush too. Its ridiculous. This practice amounts to what we call corruption in the civilised world but its allowed to carry on.

No individual can solve the problem we are facing. And not one government can do the same. And I wouldn't even dare to suggest a way out but if we put our heads together and work as a team (not with the islamic radicals or course), I am sure we will benefit at the end of the day. As the saying goes 'good things don't come cheap'. So we need to sacrifice a little now in order to have something better in the near future. We can't be so selfish as to say "I am not going to give up what I have now for some lame ass excuse for GW".

We all want clean air, we all one less pollution, we want to have clean cheap alternative power source. That is undeniable, but if we are not willing to sacrifice a little, how can we have them at all?

No, thank you. I won't sacrifice anything just because you are sure that we will all benefit in the end.

I haven't agreed yet that there is a problem that needs attention, let alone a draconian solution.

I'm just as sure that we will never benefit from allowing thieves to pillage our pockets to stoke the larder of Algore and his ilk.

I don't trust this government let alone yours and a collection of nare do wells like the U.N. (just as one example) is the ultimate evil.

As far as Bush, Chaney et al, we quit allowing folks from across the pond choose our leaders in 1776. I'll keep them, warts and all, over the likes of Neville Chamberlain, Hugo Chavez, Jacques Chirac or Vladimir Putin.

In short, the whole issue is a load of barn litter being foisted upon us to gain power.

Not by the hair on my chiny, Chaney, chin, chin!!!

jhowelb...

I must agree with you. Something about the word sacrifice, with its religious undertones. Same goes for compromise. Compromise is such an easy word. So easy to say, so easy to ask for. Just not that easy to do if you're the one compromising. And it's not just the words, it's the way that it's phrased. I don't need any psycho-lingual mutterances that are intended to "train" my brain to see a different view point. I don't give two ****s for political correctness, so it's not that they aren't using the right words...it's that they aren't using words that make any sense to a person capable of working through problems and making deductions on their own. I rather like doing my own thinking thank you.

Also note that alexccmeister is from Brunei...isn't that calling the kettle black? One of the richest countries in the world...home to more supercars per capita than any other country in the world...home to more extravagant displays of wealth than anywhere else in the world. And from whence did this fortune arise? Oil of course...

I's be HEPPY to fetch da watta fo ya massa, mebbe I's can have a drink when I's done suh?

Never ask for a sacrifice you're not prepared to make yourself. In totality. Ask any soldier, sailor, airman, Coastie or Marine. I'll stake my life for a brother. Because I know a brother would stake his life for mine. As for anyone else...better you than me.

Mariss & MrWild,

Before you “show me the instruments” I’d like to confess that I joined CNC Zone because of the Global Warming forum and all but 3 of my 63 posts are GW related. I don’t own or use a CNC machine, but before you write me off as a paid propaganda agent let me tell you what my goal is:

I want to provoke people into thinking for themselves so as to develop their own point of view on GW, rather than adopting the views expressed by authoritative politicians or charismatic entertainers.

I happen to think that the earth’s climate is prone to change without asking permission and that trying to prevent this is both futile and arrogant. The GW fear campaign has all the earmarks of a religion, complete with guilt, penance, sacrifice and indulgences (carbon credits). But, as I have stated in other posts, salvation is unattainable, even if we get rid of all cars and fully implement Kyoto. I think the key motivation behind the GW movement is not to save us, but rather to enslave us.

I am a mechanical engineer by training and work in inkjet printer R&D. While I love internal combustion engines, I speak for myself, not for Big Oil. I do have a manual mill and lathe at home and am attempting to build a model IC engine.

Mariss, I would like to see a list of “agent” names. Now if you are using your real name, I can see your reluctance to post this.


You have noticed something I completely missed... posters whose names I haven't seen anywhere else. Mariss

If you are right, we all may be the unwelcome recipients of an outreach program to educate us technical savages into the right way of thinking. Mariss

How do we know if it's true or not? ... I will compare names against posts. Any name that has even one coherent CNC-related technical post will pass. The working assumption is the purported missionaries are not technical people and wouldn't know a mill from a lathe; they live in a more spiritual realm. Mariss

I have no interest in "outing" or embarrassing individuals and I never would because it's unkind. I'm only interested to see if there is a trend and I'll only be doing what anyone else can if they wish. Let's see what happens. I'll tabulate the aggregate results

There are agencies that do nothing more than pay people to come in and bombard websites with their form of propoganda. I mention this because there are a few posters with VERY high post numbers that have done nothing but posted in the Global Warming forum. I can't help but question their motives. You never see them give sources for the studies they quote.

In the quoted part of your post, I'll agree with you.
"Mariss" is the name he does business under, I've done business with him myself and I suspect that he will agree as well. He has a dry sense of humor and may be easily misunderstood but in all the dealings he has had with folks on the Zone he has never displayed an ounce of malice and in situatiopns where I would have come on hammer and tong.

[QUOTE=dynosor;369065]Mariss & MrWild,

........................let me tell you what my goal is:

I want to provoke people into thinking for themselves so as to develop their own point of view on GW, rather than adopting the views expressed by authoritative politicians or charismatic entertainers.

I happen to think that the earth’s climate is prone to change without asking permission and that trying to prevent this is both futile and arrogant. The GW fear campaign has all the earmarks of a religion, complete with guilt, penance, sacrifice and indulgences (carbon credits). But, as I have stated in other posts, salvation is unattainable, even if we get rid of all cars and fully implement Kyoto. I think the key motivation behind the GW movement is not to save us, but rather to enslave us.

There are indeed groups of ideologically driven folks calling talk shows and hitting any kind of "chat room" with the intent to push the "party line".

These be lunatics and need to be recognized.

stupid computer can't even spell!!!!

jhowelb...

I must agree with you. Something about the word sacrifice, with its religious undertones. Same goes for compromise. Compromise is such an easy word. So easy to say, so easy to ask for. Just not that easy to do if you're the one compromising. And it's not just the words, it's the way that it's phrased. I don't need any psycho-lingual mutterances that are intended to "train" my brain to see a different view point. I don't give two ****s for political correctness, so it's not that they aren't using the right words...it's that they aren't using words that make any sense to a person capable of working through problems and making deductions on their own. I rather like doing my own thinking thank you.

Also note that alexccmeister is from Brunei...isn't that calling the kettle black? One of the richest countries in the world...home to more supercars per capita than any other country in the world...home to more extravagant displays of wealth than anywhere else in the world. And from whence did this fortune arise? Oil of course...

I's be HEPPY to fetch da watta fo ya massa, mebbe I's can have a drink when I's done suh?

Never ask for a sacrifice you're not prepared to make yourself. In totality. Ask any soldier, sailor, airman, Coastie or Marine. I'll stake my life for a brother. Because I know a brother would stake his life for mine. As for anyone else...better you than me.

How I wish I am where you are not where I am.

Sorry my friend, Brunei is rich but the people don't own it. Its owned by a family here and thats as far as it goes. The supercars are owned by the same family. There are many poors here and too much self interests by a minority group that gives me a headache just thinking about it. I am ashamed to be even be called a Bru%$^en. Seriously.

And I am not religious at all, I am not a muslim, nor am I a christian, I am a buddist but by birth and I don't practice it as much as I should. So you don't really know me and can't judge me just because I come from a rich country and a few words that has religious connotation. Who is paranoid here?

Where I come from to insult the family is a crime punishable by jail term. Who dares to criticize? No one and those that does are outside of the country and do so under an assumed name.

But here's the difference, you live in a country that is a democracy. And you can (so to speak) pick and choose who to run for office and take care of the country and the world. I believe USA has the capability to take the lead and to be the big brother to look after the world (and I am willing to accept that simply because some governments in the east couldn't care less), but not with the people like bush who just want to reap for his benefit. You like him and people like cheney because he doesn't want to accept the kyoto protocol not because he is looking after your welfare, its because he is looking after his and his alone.

[QUOTE=MrWild;368694]
I'll be doing this for my own amusement. I have no interest in "outing" or embarrassing individuals and I never would because it's unkind. I'm only interested to see if there is a trend and I'll only be doing what anyone else can if they wish.

Let's see what happens. I'll tabulate the aggregate results.

Mariss

I did it four monthis ago. Like I said, I have a BS in Technical and Profesional Communication out of RIT. All profesions have their code of ethics, but many in this field are as shady as politicians. We go hand in hand you know. My findings were showing some posters with 200 to 10 post ratios of Global warming to technical forums and the posts in the tech forums were not really followed well. The only reason for my research was boredom and due to my knowing of the latest ways things are done to sway public opinion. Sadly your point of view has the most phonies pushing it.

When we push for the named studies, we will find that at a third level of ownership, the studies will actually be paid for by energy interests. This isn't some Iliminatie thing, it's just big business looking out for itself. It's what ad agencies do the best. We sway public opinion. And to really sway it well, you need Engineers saying the sciientists are full of it. Who do people believe. Scientists? HAHAHAHAHA Engineers? Oh yeah, they still speak the language.

Am I in an ad agency? No. I find manipuating public opinion reprehensible. We (I use this loosely) use psychological studies to design ways to reach, grab attention, hold the attention, and once we have it, place ideas. Once an idea has been placed, it becomes cemented and folks can have reason drilled at them intensly and it does no use. Once the idea is entrenched, it takes very little effort to keep it entrenched.

Yes I have a degree in communication, but Shakespear was never mentioned.

Dear MrWild,

How can I become one of them?

Well, I wish I could say that I've been hanging around in underground parking lots, in the early hours, waiting for a thick brown envelope stuffed with cash from a geezer employed by those wicked oil companies.

Believe me, I need their cash.

Since you mentioned it, any chance of posting any evidence that these organised and prostituted people exist????


Best wishes,

Martin

Martin,

Very easy to check. Just look up posters and view their activities. Number of posts and where they have posted are listed. Like I said, I checked four months ago and wrote a number of posters off. My senior year I took eighteen credits a quarter of senior studies.. This works out to about four semesters at a "normal" college. Some courses were true eye openers. I'm not talking like a conspiracy lunatic. As I said, it's just a fact of life. People are easily manipulated when you use the current psychological studies on what to say, how to say it, and when to say it.

Want to place a big 3' x 5' sign in your neighbors yard? Start by asking if they will put a 4" x 4" placard in their picture window. Stuck with having to give bad information in a proxy statement? Here are three ways. Put the information in a pie chart. Normally this is a very bad way to do things as a pie chart is easily understood by the human eye. Turn it into a 3D disk. Now lay it into an iso view with the bad segment to the rear. 3D allows the good information at the front to seem larger than it is and bad to the rear smaller. You say, "Things started good but have progressively gotten worse?" Change the time frame. Go most recent on the left leading to the present. People expect charts to grow. They see the chart rising, assume growth and don't look at the fine print. The best one is just bury the numbers in a spread sheet. People HATE looking at them for information. Lazy wins out.

Like I've said, I have a degree in communcation and Shakespeare was never mentioned. Yes, you can make money chatting on the internet. Designing what the drones say is a lot more money though. Not what I want to do. My senior year turned me off to that end. I'd rather write technical manuals.

.... The best one is just bury the numbers in a spread sheet. People HATE looking at them for information. Lazy wins out....

And I thought I was the only one who wrote a long boring introduction, put the important stuff in the middle followed by a long boring conclusion, when I wanted someone to agree to something in writing but not know exactly what they had agreed to. :)

Mr Wild do you have a degree in communication or mis-communication :D .

How I wish I am where you are not where I am.

Sorry my friend, Brunei is rich but the people don't own it. Its owned by a family here and thats as far as it goes. The supercars are owned by the same family. There are many poors here and too much self interests by a minority group that gives me a headache just thinking about it. I am ashamed to be even be called a Bru%$^en. Seriously.

And I am not religious at all, I am not a muslim, nor am I a christian, I am a buddist but by birth and I don't practice it as much as I should. So you don't really know me and can't judge me just because I come from a rich country and a few words that has religious connotation. Who is paranoid here?

Where I come from to insult the family is a crime punishable by jail term. Who dares to criticize? No one and those that does are outside of the country and do so under an assumed name.

But here's the difference, you live in a country that is a democracy. And you can (so to speak) pick and choose who to run for office and take care of the country and the world. I believe USA has the capability to take the lead and to be the big brother to look after the world (and I am willing to accept that simply because some governments in the east couldn't care less), but not with the people like bush who just want to reap for his benefit. You like him and people like cheney because he doesn't want to accept the kyoto protocol not because he is looking after your welfare, its because he is looking after his and his alone.

alexccmeister

I apologize if I have offended you. I did not intend to. I normally do not apologize for what I say, however, with any webforum, physical cues and inflection do not come through, so without very careful wording, it is easy to sound different than what was intended.

As for being paranoid...if I were exhibiting signs of UNHEALTHY paranoia, it would be possible to shake off my words as ranting from an unstable person. I have literally been around the world and seen combat in 5 countries. I know what it's like to have unknown enemies who want you dead for no reason other than you are a convenient target or are unliked as an outsider. I have experienced several different cultures. I have enjoyed most of them. Some I have learned to be grateful for my own culture.

As for Bush, like a lot of service people, I voted for him because I knew he'd take care of the military. Our first question when he started running for president, was when are we going to Iraq? I found out a year later. Since then, I have had the dubious honor of meeting both him and Cheney. Cheney also happens to be from my state and home town. I think he's an alright person, definitely misguided by his fundamentalist beliefs, and a horrible leader. His one saving grace is his ability to recognize the abilities in others. Say what you will about the current group holding high offices, they know how to play ball.

I don't practice any religion and I tolerate others' beliefs, so long as they do not interfere with mine. When I was stationed in Saudi Arabia, it infuriated me that our service women were made to wear burkhas. That is NOT part of our military uniform. For chrissakes, we couldn't have Playboy in our PX. I personally don't care for porn, but if some guy wants to look at airbrushed models and read inane article, more power to him. When we're "guests" of another country, we have to abide by their rules, no matter how backwards they may be.

As for the US being the "big brother" and "leading the way", I say no thank you. Our constitution says nothing of spreading democracy, promoting democracy or establishing democracies. Only to guarantee ours. Besides, we are technically a democratic republic, and thank god for that, because true democracy would have ruined our country at least 150 years ago. Most people are barely able to care for themselves, let alone make decisions that affect people besides themselves.

So...India and China together have 3 billion (BILLION!!!) people...America has 330 million people. I should forego, give up, go without (and many other meaningless phrases) my standard of living to "lead the way" while 10 times as many people do far worse things environmentally to "bootstrap" themselves to economic superpowers? We're about to give away our middle class so that they can gain theirs? Not the world I care for my children to inherit. Give me a real solution. For a real problem.

but not with the people like bush who just want to reap for his benefit. You like him and people like cheney because he doesn't want to accept the kyoto protocol not because he is looking after your welfare, its because he is looking after his and his alone.

Alex

Bush did NOT reject signing the Kyoto protocol. Signing Kyoto came up during the Clinton administration, but Clinton was forbidden by the US senate from signing it.

I am no Bush fan. As proof of this statement, read what I posted here: http://www.cnczone.com/forums/showthread.php?t=36037


I suggest you research signing Kyoto yourself. Google is your friend: http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=signing+kyoto+clinton+senate

For instance:

http://64.233.167.104/search?q=cache:gTeEMy7VHeMJ:www.nationalledger.com/artman/publish/article_27262038.shtml+signing+kyoto+clinton+senate&hl=en&ct=clnk&cd=10&gl=us

http://www.planetark.org/dailynewsstory.cfm/newsid/2266/newsDate/17-Nov-1998/story.htm

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kyoto_Protocol

http://matthewyglesias.theatlantic.com/archives/2007/09/why_this_matters.php

Hi WYLD,

No worries, none taken. You are right, sometimes its difficult to sound mild and saying something strong over the net in text form. TBH I have always looked up to the states for being the perfect candidate for a big brother. For being the balancer of evil. History has seen many a times where USA has done her bit to rid the world of really bad people. I am glad when they caught Saddam and hanged him for what he did. But it would be a big responsibility to look after the whole world though.

Maybe the day will come when USA has to take up the lead role again to sort out the mess we put ourselves in, i.e. pollution and the likes. Who else would? China? India? I don't think so. After all we are living under the same roof, so to speak. So when the s4!t hits the fan, everyone gets it.

Maybe I have been watching too much movies. LOL.

"Mariss"...has a dry sense of humor...
So do I.

My "confession" was intended mainly for entertainment.

Lest there be any misunderstanding, I had set my humor setting to "very dry". Maybe too dry it seems. A dark conspiracy was suggested so I ran with it by replying in kind.

Mariss

I'd rather write technical manuals.

DearMrWild,

Well, I suppose that the paper I drew attention to in post #20 is a "technical manual" to some people.

Best wishes,

Martin

Please see the attached gif file. It should put things into perspective regarding what has happened to our earth in times past.

Tides we know flow and ebb every day and measure a few feet. The earth has many time scales, the kinds that take a day and the kinds that take place on a scale we cannot imagine.

The graph shows the flow and ebb of tides that measure in millions years. The Pleistocene is our current era. It is what came after the extinction of dinosaurs, our current era and about an hour on earth's scale of time.

Please interpret the graph with me. See that the amplitude of the sea-level ranges from near 300 feet higher than now and 400 feet less than now. Note the graph gets finer with time as we near the present; there are more fluctuations. This is only because there is clearer evidence of what our earth's history is.

Note the very small "H" at the right-hand side of the timeline. It is the Historical time period starting with the advent of civilization and it spans only 10,000 years.

The sea-level has risen 350 feet in the last 10,000 years. Heat-producing human activity spans less than 200 years, or only the last 1/50th of the tiny 'H' span of the graph. It is less than 1 pixel of the graph and it is of no consequence.

10,000 years ago glaciers covered the northern 1/3 of the US 2 miles deep. They melted and raised the sea. I grew up in Ohio and remember marveling at the terminal moraines the ancient glaciers left. In my imagination, I tried to see what the land looked like as they retreated. It must have been a very sad place where life could only find purchase 1 or 2 months out of the year.

Most of us live in a temperate climate and it is the same way. Life thrives for 6 months and then it dies; we call it winter. Is it natural? Not for most of earth's natural history, life has simply adapted to a harsh reality. We also have a very nice place in Hawaii we call home. Life here thrives 12 months out of the year. To me it seems like the natural order of things. Why should life have to adapt by dying every year when the more natural course is to continue uninterrupted? It makes no sense unless it is trying to hang on in a hostile environment from which it didn't originate.

The earth will warm, the remaining ice will melt and the seas will rise whether we are here or not. It is blissfully uncaring of our concerns. From the graph, the seas will rise another 300 feet before the cycle repeats in another 100,000 years. Between now and then, everywhere will become semi-tropical and life will be as it was for countless millions of years before.

Global warming alarmists cry the seas will rise 30 feet if we don't do something now. Look at the graph. What is 30 feet on it if nothing but a blip? Where do these alarmists get the arrogance to believe something done in 20 years means anything one way or the other? It doesn't even rate a single pixel. We can "do" something about it? No; we are less than fleas on an elephant.

These changes shown on the graph are monumental both in amplitude and time. We should have a little humility about where we fit in.

Mariss

Granted. But I still would like to see new energy efficient, non polluting technology in my lifetime so I can enjoy the fresh air.

Mariss
To state that the weather has varied a great deal in previous epochs is doubtlessly true. But that doesn't negate the possibility of human activity causing global warming. I doubt we know enough to know for sure, my guess is that it's having an effect. I really don't think all those scientists are just trying to garner research grants although some probably are. Also the folks who say it isn't happening probably have an interest in doing so as well. If only to assuage their conscience for driving a Hummer. When the best minds out there are saying it's happening you have to consider the possibility that it is.
Donna

Granted. But I still would like to see new energy efficient, non polluting technology in my lifetime so I can enjoy the fresh air.

The processes of living (breathing, digestion, reproduction, etc.) produce pollutants no matter how large or small the organism. (You get sick from something as small as a virus) Therefore you have impractical unattainable expectations.

As far as fresh air, save your pennies and take a cruise to Hawaii.

In the mean time use YOUR money to search for a method to trap the by products of internal combustion. Build a better "mouse trap" and get rich!!

Who knows,
My "interests" are in designing electronic circuits. I'm not a part of some diabolical dark cabal intent on making the earth a steaming and polluted cesspool. What would these conspirators do? Ruin the earth, then take their profits and move to Mars?

I do have a reverence for science and reason. The barbarians have already debased the soft sciences and are now mounting their assault on the remaining hard sciences. Mathematics is next. Maybe in the future 10,000 renowned Green Mathematicians will sign a petition that 2 + 2 is no longer 4. Consensus is everything in our New Age.

Mariss

Mariss
To state that the weather has varied a great deal in pr