The Coming Climate Change [Archive] - Page 7 - CNCzone.com-The Largest Machinist Community on the net!

Mariss Freimanis

03-07-2008, 12:34 AM

Geof,

From your technical posts and and from the cool, clear wisdom displayed in them, I have developed a high regard for you. For that reason I take your words to heart and consider them with the seriousness they deserve.

By way of explanation, I was casting around for a word that would fit my thoughts like a key in a lock so I was less than sanguine with 'cut', the word picked. Marissa is 23-years old and she wondered with a palatable disappointment how someone could say what she was reading. 23-year olds still believe in truth, justice and fairness. She is old enough that no explanation was necessary, I only noted her disappointment.

Myself, I'm old enough that nothing shocks, surprises or disappoints anymore. It also affords an equanimity to really believe with my heart that any expression, agreeable or not, has the right to be expressed. That is the essence of tolerance.

Tolerance does not mean acceptance though. Tolerance also does not mean acquiescing to bullying for the lack of a better word. A disagreeable thought expressed once, twice or three times is to be tolerated; the point is made. That same thought expressed many, many more times takes on a different and more malicious intent.

Tolerance means to tolerate. To tolerate means one extends a courtesy even though it comes at some personal expense to pay. Your neighbor may play the radio loud one evening; you tolerate it because you would expect the same courtesy in exchange. Your neighbor plays the radio loud every night and your ability to tolerate it will cease at some point.

What we had instead was an abuse of tolerance. At some point it becomes clear free expression is not the motive but rather a different reason is operating; a vandal's idle joy in causing pain for the sheer pleasure of it. A naive interpretation of tolerance is it all should have been suffered because it's freedom of expression. I think it's a little more complex than that for practical reasons.

Mariss

jhowelb

03-07-2008, 09:12 AM

What got me about XY was her inability to control her political vitrol. I respect the president of the United States and I happen to believe he is a good and well meaning person. I also believe he is an intelligent man who has done everything he can by his lights to keep us all from further harm. I respect the office but I respect the present holder of this office even more. My son-in-law leaves for Iraq in May, my dear daughter follows shortly thereafter. It is awe-inspiring the dedication to country and the willing sacrifice these and other young people like them willingly make.

It dismayed me beyond words when that vacuous idiot kept repeating "idiot-in-chief". She has no sense at all what others willing give up, their love of country or sense of patriotism. She had no sense of how her words cut my daughter who has a sense of obligation and service. I cannot work up any hatred for XY because she is just plain too dumb to understand these things. My dog has more decency, kindness and soul.

Good riddance and stay away.

Mariss

It was some thing on the order of 6 hours 35 min. between her last post here and the first on the other thread. I do not believe for a second that she is gone. When her need for conflict rises she will return.

I had no idea that there was such a thing as a liberal until I came home hurt and bloody and was met by the Berkley crowd. Over the intervening years I've come to realize that they come in many flavors and degrees of loony. They do seem to share one characteristic common to them all. The abject hatred of America as she exists. This I believe is the driving force behind the enviro/GW/CC/Progressive mentality. The desire to destroy our country and make her over into Haiti or USSR or China. It's not that they have no idea about what "others are willing give up, their love of country or sense of patriotism." They just don't give a damn!

The situation with your children really does trouble me at this juncture. Of the three jostling for the office there seems to be only superficial differences. It is easy to say "I don't have a dog in that fight" BUT....
Everything we have and all that we are and every bit that can be hangs in the balance. Choose wrong and it is the"Eave of Destruction"!

There is only one who says he will stand our ground in the Mid East and that he will appoint constructionist judges. That combined with enough conservative minded Reps and Senators is our only hope.

I will continue to pray for yours and others in uniform, that's really all I can do.

fizzissist

03-07-2008, 12:37 PM

jhowelb

03-07-2008, 01:10 PM

If we're going to talk about the middle east, oil, national security (all indirectly at least influencing "climate change" policies), then let's keep in mind the people that want to bring us down...

YouTube - Farfour "martyred" by Israelis in final episode (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TrieBhaGgHM)

No, that wasn't a joke. It was real. Farfour was replaced by Nahoul, who was then replaced with Assud.

This is the sick crap the children are being fed, that they can grow up to fight us evil infidels.

YouTube - Hamas Bunny, Assud, Replaces His "Martyred" Brother Nahoul (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v6d2hTjUtMc)

All this is no surprise to me. Track the activities of these folks back thru the the Marine barracks in Beirut in 1983, and the single largest loss of life was the downing of an Air India plane in 1986, the Achille Laurel, and it just does not require a genius to understand that we have no choice in this endeavor.

My comments were in response to an on going effort by xyz to tie every ill known to man, from African mumps to dish pan hands to "the current administration".

This person is here for the purpose of causing as much controversy as possible. Just to muddy the water!

dufas

03-07-2008, 03:43 PM

When I was young, in the free world, there were people like XYZ that was on Hitler's side or said that Hitler and Japan had a right to do what they were doing. During the Korean conflict, these same people wanted to give South Korea to North Korea. During the cold war, these XYZ types wanted to give in to Russia shouting for all to hear "Better Red than dead..." Most will remember their attitude about the Vietnam conflict. Now, it is Iraq, the Talaban, and Global Warming that they are rooting for.

The original charter of their main mouthpeice, the ACLU was originally chartered by Communists and Socialists with the agenda to use America's laws against America in order to bring America down. Gorbachev, ex-premier of the USSR now lives in the US and has formed a environmental organization that applies pressure on our gullible politicians to bring laws into being that in reality curtail our freedoms.

People like XYZ fall into lock-step with everyone of these anti-American agendas either on purpose or out of stupidity......

Geof

03-07-2008, 04:19 PM

...., and the single largest loss of life was the downing of an Air India plane in 1986,....

Yes it was the single largest loss of life due to a terrorist act up to that time.

However, it had absolutely nothing to do with Al Qaeda or Islamic extremists; it was related to Sikh - Hindu conflicts in India.

jhowelb

03-07-2008, 05:15 PM

All this is no surprise to me. Track the activities of these folks back thru the the Marine barracks in Beirut in 1983, and the Achille Laurel, and it just does not require a genius to understand that we have no choice in this endeavor.

My comments were in response to an on going effort by xyz to tie every ill known to man, from African mumps to dish pan hands to "the current administration".

This person is here for the purpose of causing as much controversy as possible. Just to muddy the water!

Yes it was the single largest loss of life due to a terrorist act up to that time.

However, it had absolutely nothing to do with Al Qaeda or Islamic extremists; it was related to Sikh - Hindu conflicts in India.

OK, I've excised the contested phrase. And it changes the tenor of my statement HOW?

Geof

03-07-2008, 06:10 PM

.......OK, I've excised the contested phrase. And it changes the tenor of my statement HOW?

I am uninterested in the tenor of your statement; my interest is pointing out inaccuracies. If you were wrong on the Air India aspect it undermines your credibility on other aspects which you have correct. If you want to shoot the arguments of someone else down you have to make sure yours are in incontestable.

One of Many

03-07-2008, 09:11 PM

I am uninterested in the tenor of your statement; my interest is pointing out inaccuracies. If you were wrong on the Air India aspect it undermines your credibility on other aspects which you have correct. If you want to shoot the arguments of someone else down you have to make sure yours are in incontestable.

While it may be fair to relate additional context. Could this be a Microcosm verses macrocosm envisage on his tenor to appear inaccurate? I think his point was spot on, taken in its grouped context without segregating the exact sources and conditions for each catastrophic event.

If you look at it as religious or cultural extremisms in terms of all inclusive with indifference to whom it is brought upon, it still results in the death of innocent victims as easy targets. These cultures consider any target is better than none, sacrificed as a vengeful sense of glory for the cause.

<Stated in the accent of William F. Buckley>

That type of distortion on someones credibility and undeserved scrutiny, suggests it may be coming from a mighty peculiar character motivation......portraying the illiusion of impeccable grandeur. To wit, can never belie those unscholarly fellows!:D

DC

Geof

03-07-2008, 09:18 PM

...If you look at it as religious or cultural extremisms in terms of all inclusive with indifference to whom it is brought upon, it still results in the death of innocent victims as easy targets.....
DC

Okay if you are going to lump all terrorists into one category where were you when the IRA was killing people and getting support from sympathisers in the US?

jhowelb

03-07-2008, 09:56 PM

Geof

03-07-2008, 11:16 PM

In as much as the statement was not directed at or to you, I fail to see what your interest has to do with anything. Who died and made you arbiter of fact? For that matter what makes you think I give a damn about how much credibility YOU are willing to give me? If you never responded to one of my posts my feelings would suffer none!

Touchy, touchy. It is highly amusing how you lap up agreement with your opinions and foam at the mouth when anyone questions you.

One of Many

03-07-2008, 11:26 PM

Okay if you are going to lump all terrorists into one category where were you when the IRA was killing people and getting support from sympathisers in the US?

I was between 8 and 18. Does that make me culpable just because I am an American? How does too young to have an opinion grab ya? My priorities at that time, were just to survive the $hithole neighborhood I had to grow up in. I got to see my next door neighbor lie in the street in front of my house for 6 or 8 hrs after being shot dead by the police for making a threating gesture from 20feet away. Do you really think the IRA should have been higher on my list of concerns? Between thugs and corrupt police,I didn't know who to trust and I still don't.

Does that mean the IRA got any support from me? NO. Can I sympathize with ANY victim of religious revenge, ethnic cleansing or killing of innocent targets? YES!

Redirecting the focus onto the US in your response to "questionable credibility" would be warranted, had I somehow implicated you or Canadian's in general as terrorist sympathizers. Wouldn't gain me any more than it gained you!:)

Probably meaningless, but these kind of problems are EVERYBODY'S PROBLEMS!....... (http://www.cagle.com/news/CanadianTerrorists/main.asp)

DC

One of Many

03-07-2008, 11:32 PM

Touchy, touchy. It is highly amusing how you lap up agreement with your opinions and foam at the mouth when anyone questions you.

DITTO! :eek::D

DC

jhowelb

03-07-2008, 11:49 PM

Touchy, touchy. It is highly amusing how you lap up agreement with your opinions and foam at the mouth when anyone questions you.

Really? You can see foam on a persons mouth from a printed word? How introspective! You are wasting you time on this thread. Surly the government could make good use of your ability to "know" and "see" so much about the author of any given written word.

Every person on the forum will defend his or her position if they hold firm convictions. Nothing uncommon there.

I will take exception when you (and this is not the first time you've tried this) single out a phrase, a word or just one single misstated fact and try to use it to shred another persons stated position in order to demean the person in apparent effort to make yourself look or feel better, smarter or more dominant. That is unkind, unnecessary and IMHO immature.

It does make you the subject of the conversation temporarily. Does that give you a rush?

skippy

03-08-2008, 10:12 AM

Quote by jhelbow "You are wasting you time on this thread"
No, I doubt it. Geof's comments are the only reason that I keep reading this thread. I bet that every government wished they had a nation of people who think like you do. That way they could feed you any guff (Iraq for example) and you'd go through your whole life swallowing it all. Governments need more people like you.

jhowelb

03-08-2008, 10:57 AM

jhowelb

03-08-2008, 11:18 AM

Well, Skippy, since you brought the subject up I'll just toss you a bone to chew on!

The Iraqi jet, an advanced Russian MiG-25 Foxbat, was found buried in the sand after an informant tipped off U.S . Troops.

The MiG was dug out of a massive sand dune near the Al Taqqadum airfield by U.S. Air Force recovery teams. The MiG was reportedly one of over two dozen Iraqi jets buried in the sand, like hidden treasure, waiting to be recovered at a later date. Contrary to what some in the major media have reported, not all the jets found were from the Gulf War era.The Russian-made MiG-25 Foxbat being recovered by U.S. Air Force troops in the photos is an advanced reconnaissance version never before seen in the West and is equipped with sophisticated electronic warfare devices.

U.S. Air Force recovery teams had to use large earth-moving equipment to uncover the MiG, which is over 70 feet long and weighs nearly 25 tons.

The Foxbat is known to be one of Iraq's top jet fighters. The advanced electronic reconnaissance version found by the U.S. Air Force is currently in service with the Russian air force. The MiG is capable of flying at speeds of over 2,000 miles an hour, or three times the speed of sound , and at altitudes of over 75,000 feet.

The recovery of the advanced MiG fighter is considered to be an intelligence coup by the U.S. Air Force.. The Foxbat may also be equipped with advanced Russian- and French-made electronics that were sold to I raq during the 1990s in violation of a U..N. Ban on arms sales to Baghdad .

The buried aircraft at Al Taqqadum were covered in camouflage netting, sealed and, in many cases, had their wings removed before being buried more than 10 feet beneath the Iraqi desert.

The discovery of the buried Iraqi jet fighters illustrates the problem faced by U.S. inspection teams searching Iraq for weapons of mass destruction. Iraq is larger in size than California, and the massive deserts south and west of Baghdad were used by Saddam Hussein to hide weapons during the first Gulf war.

U.S. Intelligence sources have already uncovered several mass grave burial sites in the open deserts with an estimated 10,000 dead hidden there. In addition, Iraq previously hid SCUD missiles, chemical weapons and biological warheads by burying them under the desert sand.

U.N. Inspection teams found the weapons in the early 1990's after detailed information of the exact locations was obtained.

Top U.S. Weapons inspector Dr. David Kay is known to favor human Intelligence as the primary means to find Iraq 's hidden treasure trove of weapons and secrets.

While there are rumors of Iraqi chemical and biological weapons being shipped to nearby Syria , the weapons may very well still remain inside Iraq buried under the vast desert wastelands.

Some critics of the Bush administration have claimed that the inability of U.S. . Forces to uncover weapons of mass destruction is proof that the president misled the nation into the war with Iraq .

However, in recent days the critics have fallen silent as word quietly leaked from Iraq that major discoveries have already been made and are now being documented completely.

Bush administration officials are keeping any such discoveries secret for the moment.

dufas

03-08-2008, 02:03 PM

Man made global warming, Bush is the devil, UFOs, ...........It is all the same. People will believe what they want and no amount of truth, facts, or evidence to the contrary will change their opinion.

There is a lady that lives next door to me that will not use her garbage disposal.. She read in some kook environmental handout that running left-over food through her disposal will ruin the drinking water. I argued with her for months and then finally asked if fecal matter, tampons, sperm, piss, toilet paper, dumped drugs and who knows what else would ruin her drinking water for it all goes to the same place. She got all twisted out of shape, became angry with me and called me all sorts of names but she still believes that food scraps will ruin her drinking water.....

I found that it is a great waste of time to debate most of these people. They just won't let the facts get in the way of their belief system....

Geof

03-08-2008, 02:42 PM

Well, Skippy, since you brought the subject up I'll just toss you a bone to chew on!

Surely you could have found something more recent than this; In August 2003, several dozen Iraqi aircraft were discovered buried in the sand

Maybe like the Pentagon report declassified in April last year that said the claims made by undersecretary of defence that al-Qaida and Iraq had a "mature" and "symbiotic" in a briefing to Cheney in 2002 were just smoke and mirrors. The position of both the Pentagon and CIA, at that time, which had concluded there were "no conclusive signs" of links between Iraq and al-Qaida, and that "direct cooperation ... has not been established" between the two was subsequently confirmed by information obtained from the former Iraqi president and other top officials.

In other words the so-called justification for invading Iraq to prevent it supporting al-Qaida was a fabrication.

jhowelb

03-08-2008, 03:06 PM

Surely you could have found something more recent than this; In August 2003, several dozen Iraqi aircraft were discovered buried in the sand

Maybe like the Pentagon report declassified in April last year that said the claims made by undersecretary of defence that al-Qaida and Iraq had a "mature" and "symbiotic" in a briefing to Cheney in 2002 were just smoke and mirrors. The position of both the Pentagon and CIA, at that time, which had concluded there were "no conclusive signs" of links between Iraq and al-Qaida, and that "direct cooperation ... has not been established" between the two was subsequently confirmed by information obtained from the former Iraqi president and other top officials.

In other words the so-called justification for invading Iraq to prevent it supporting al-Qaida was a fabrication.

Just more flak, chaf and smoke screens. The fighters were still buried and hidden, no telling how many are still hidden nor how much other stuff is hidden in backyards, gardens and the somewhat sizable desert. Dated information isn't automatically "bad" and I can't tell the difference between "good" terrorists and "bad" ones. They all hate Americans, they all wear a diaper on their heads and we must still deal with them or die. I for one vote for "dealing". (Especially well handled with attack helicopters and offensively armed c-130's)

A glass lined parking lot for the oil wells would be nice. One down two more "neighbors" to go then the other two of the "Axis of Evil" and maybe Hugo Chavez thrown in for good measure. Stop crying and quit blowing you nose on my shirt tail! It is done!

Geof

03-08-2008, 04:22 PM

Just more flak, chaf and smoke screens. The fighters were still buried and hidden,.....etc...

Well I accept you as the authority on that kind of stuff. However, I will point out that terrorists don't use Migs. Going into Iraq was unnecessary and unwise; going in before completing the job in Afghanistan was utter idiocy. And your solution is to escalate things? When already US troops are being put in the field two and a half times longer than the US military said was the maximum tolerable just a few years ago. 4000 dead and 25,000 wounded; thousands of TBI victims being dumped back into their local community with inadequate support. And you want more of it?

skippy

03-08-2008, 04:36 PM

jhowelb

03-08-2008, 08:13 PM

Well I accept you as the authority on that kind of stuff. However, I will point out that terrorists don't use Migs. Going into Iraq was unnecessary and unwise; going in before completing the job in Afghanistan was utter idiocy. And your solution is to escalate things? When already US troops are being put in the field two and a half times longer than the US military said was the maximum tolerable just a few years ago. 4000 dead and 25,000 wounded; thousands of TBI victims being dumped back into their local community with inadequate support. And you want more of it?

I accept you as the authority

No authority, just an opinion like everyone else here!

terrorists don't use Migs But terrorist states do!

Going into Iraq was unnecessary and unwise; going in before completing the job in Afghanistan was utter idiocy. I YOUR opinion. Lets see, was it West Point or Annapolis where you got your degree in "war"?

4000 dead and 25,000 wounded; Wait till your rag head buddies go to work in our streets the way they have in Israel and elsewhere and see if you can calculate the cost then.

thousands of TBI victims being dumped back into their local community with inadequate support.

If you called them victims to their face I figure that to a man each would do his best to whip you butt. IMHO heroes would be a better term.

And you want more of it?

No, I want an end to it and you sure as hell won't get that by running away to hide.

martinw

03-08-2008, 08:59 PM

jhowelb

03-08-2008, 09:16 PM

jhowelb

03-08-2008, 09:28 PM

Dear All,

Dredging through the archives, I stumbled on this thread...

http://www.cnczone.com/forums/showthread.php?t=34381&highlight=mind+global+warming

Some of the usual suspects appeared.

Nobody has moved their opinions.

Actually, what is the point of further discussion?

Any thoughts?

Best wishes,

Martin

You know, that has got to be pretty close to the most rational thing I've read hereabouts. Mostly barking dogs and knuckle dragging apes!

That one I shall contemplate and get back to you. Maybe! If I decide that you are correct you might only have silence.

Hmmmmmmmmmmm....................................... are the cretins really worth the effort required for response? Hmmmmmmmmm!

Geof

03-08-2008, 09:36 PM

....Actually, what is the point of further discussion?

Any thoughts?

Best wishes,

Martin

There is no point to further discussion, but bull baiting is illegal in Canada so amusement has to be found elsewhere.

martinw

03-08-2008, 09:59 PM

There is no point to further discussion, but bull baiting is illegal in Canada so amusement has to be found elsewhere.

Dear Geof,

LOL. OK, OK. Sport for all!

Best wishes,

Martin

jhowelb

03-08-2008, 10:31 PM

Actually, what is the point of further discussion?

Any thoughts?

Martin

There is no point to further discussion, but bull baiting is illegal in Canada so amusement has to be found elsewhere.

LOL. OK, OK. Sport for all!

Martin

So, suspicions confirmed. Sport, indeed! Now that does put a complete other slant to things.

Sorta like pulling the wings and legs off living bugs to watch 'em squirm. Yes, that would tend to give a certain type personality a "superiority" rush.

Yes indeed, the muddy water is beginning to clear a lot!! And your proposition makes better gumption all the time.

Geof

03-08-2008, 10:46 PM

.......Sorta like pulling the wings and legs off living bugs to watch 'em squirm.....

Well if you think the simile is apt.

martinw

03-08-2008, 10:51 PM

Dear jhowelb,

Hey, lighten up a bit! I apologise if you thought I wished you any offence. Absolutely not.

Errh, actually, maybe I have got the wrong end of the stick..

Best wishes,

Martin

jhowelb

03-08-2008, 10:52 PM

Well if you think the simile is apt.

Of course not, but it speaks volumes about you, and confirms every unkind thought I've ever had of you. Rest assured, you are clearly in focus and I shall have an entirely different attitude toward you in the future.

jhowelb

03-08-2008, 10:57 PM

Dear jhowelb,

Hey, lighten up a bit! I apologise if you thought I wished you any offence. Absolutely not.

Errh, actually, maybe I have got the wrong end of the stick..

Best wishes,

Martin

No apology needed, my friend. I needed your quotes to highlight the rest of the conversation. There is a snake in the henhouse and you can hear him rattle for your self.

Geof

03-08-2008, 11:12 PM

.... Rest assured, you are clearly in focus and I shall have an entirely different attitude toward you in the future.

That is a relief. Considering the epithets and vitriol you have thrown my way, the only possible change in attitude is one for the better, it is inconceivable you could go the other way.

jhowelb

03-09-2008, 11:21 AM

To anyone interested, try a little research on this word.

troll :

(1)One who purposely and deliberately (that purpose usually being self-amusement) starts an argument in a manner which attacks others on a forum without in any way listening to the arguments proposed by his or her peers. He will spark of such an argument via the use of ad hominem attacks (i.e. 'you're nothing but a fanboy' is a popular phrase) with no substance or relevence to back them up as well as straw man arguments, which he uses to simply avoid addressing the essence of the issue.

(2)A member of an internet forum who continually harangues and harasses others. Someone with nothing worthwhile to add to a certain conversation, but rather continually threadjacks or changes the subject, as well as thinks every member of the forum is talking about them and only them. Trolls often go by multiple names to circumvent getting banned.

(3)An aesthetically repulsive person, often has terrible social skills, usually a woman.

A troll usually flames threads without staying on topic, unlike a "Flamer" who flames a thread because he/she disagrees with the content of the thread.

Geof

03-09-2008, 11:32 AM

To anyone interested, try a little research on this word.

Good quote;

(1)One who purposely and deliberately (that purpose usually being self-amusement) starts an argument in a manner which attacks others on a forum without in any way listening to the arguments proposed by his or her peers. He will spark of such an argument via the use of ad hominem attacks (i.e. 'you're nothing but a fanboy' is a popular phrase)

This describes you to a T. You have not used 'fanboy' but you have used many much worse. You do not listen to, and respond to, anyones opinion in a logical or rational manner, and you do indulge in the ad hominem attack. It is sad that you cannot look in a mirror and see yourself.

jhowelb

03-09-2008, 11:58 AM

Dear jhowelb,

Hey, lighten up a bit! I apologise if you thought I wished you any offence. Absolutely not.

Errh, actually, maybe I have got the wrong end of the stick..

Best wishes,

Martin

So you see, Martin my friend, the way to handle trolls is to simply ignore the attempt to turn your statement or the subject at hand in order to inflame the thread and cause disruption is to simply ignore it.

If you don't feed the troll he doesn't get what he wants and in turn will be inflamed himself.

Remember, don't feed the troll!

jhowelb

03-09-2008, 12:54 PM

Record snowfalls mean big meltdown
By Doyle Rice, USA TODAY
For snow-weary residents of the Midwest and New England, spring can't come soon enough.

Locations such as Madison, Wis., and Concord, N.H., endured their snowiest winter since records began, and parts of the western USA also saw a much snowier-than-average winter, according to NOAA's National Climatic Data Center.

The U.S. winter of 2007-08 — which meteorologists classify as the months of December, January and February — will go down as the coldest since the winter of 2000-01, with a national average temperature of 33.2 degrees, NOAA reported Thursday. Yet, despite the chill, the winter was still slightly warmer than the 20th-century average of 33.0 degrees.

However, it's the snowfall that may be the most memorable element of this winter.

"We had 13 inches of snow on Feb. 1 alone," said Springfield, Ill., resident Julie Becker. "We haven't had 13 inches of snow in years."

In Madison, the 88.3 inches of wintertime snow shattered the all-time record of 76.1 inches, set in the winter of 1978-79, according to the National Weather Service.

Concord recorded 100.1 inches of snow this season, stressing roofs and frazzling drivers' nerves. Before that, the record had been 78 inches, set during the winter of 1886-87, according to the weather service.

The heavy New England snow has forecasters worried about what will happen when it melts. The weather service warned last week that the seasonal flood potential is "above to well-above normal" for the Connecticut River and its tributaries. Forecasters say a rapid warm-up, combined with more heavy rain, could add to the danger.

In the drought-plagued West, the snowy winter has an upside. "The high snowpack is good news there," says climatologist Jay Lawrimore of the climatic data center. The Natural Resources Conservation Service reports that the deep snow means Colorado's water supplies could be the best in more than a decade.

Three straight months of above-average snowfall will benefit residents of Arizona, California, Kansas, Nebraska, New Mexico, Texas, Utah and Wyoming because runoff from the Colorado mountains feeds rivers that run through those states.

The La Niña climate pattern — a periodic cooling of the waters of the tropical Pacific Ocean — "certainly contributed to what we saw this winter in the USA," says Lawrimore.

The current La Niña pattern is expected to continue through the spring, which could mean below-average precipitation across the South, which also suffers from prolonged drought, NOAA's Climate Prediction Center reported Thursday.

Other likely effects this spring are warmer-than-average temperatures in the Southeast, cooler-than-average temperatures in the West and wetter-than-average conditions across the Pacific Northwest, reports the prediction center.

Although final global numbers for winter won't be available until next week, some locations enjoyed their warmest winter ever, including Sweden, Finland and Latvia, according to wire reports. In December, January and February, the average temperature in Stockholm, for example, was 36 degrees — the highest mark since recordkeeping began in 1756.

At the same time, other parts of the world, including China, India, and the Middle East, have endured an extremely cold, snowy winter. Intense storms killed dozens and snarled travel in China in January.

Contributing: The Associated Press

One of Many

03-09-2008, 01:50 PM

Good quote;

(1)One who purposely and deliberately (that purpose usually being self-amusement) starts an argument in a manner which attacks others on a forum without in any way listening to the arguments proposed by his or her peers. He will spark of such an argument via the use of ad hominem attacks (i.e. 'you're nothing but a fanboy' is a popular phrase)

This describes you to a T. You have not used 'fanboy' but you have used many much worse. You do not listen to, and respond to, anyones opinion in a logical or rational manner, and you do indulge in the ad hominem attack. It is sad that you cannot look in a mirror and see yourself.

Oh, geezlaweez!

The maturity level has dropped through the floor here. I thought real maturity was taking responsibility for what we do, without deflecting and mis-representation of the primary facts. Although, Politicians are master of this I suppose.

There is a pattern here.

Post what you think is fair and not directed at anyone specific. Some will get it, some will not. The ones that don't usually have bias against you anyways.

Then read some SOB's bull baiting entertainment is to tear its context apart from their perspective of how it should have been clarified to imply you are inaccurate and therefore have questionable credibility. The actual message tenor being minimized, demonized and ostracized. STARTING another contribution into a ridiculing flame war just for the fun of it?

The one being flamed tries to defend their contribution and that gets turned into their problem too. They are the one that need to look in a mirror? That should apply to us all IMHO, BEFORE our post starts another worthless, silly provocative, instigation at someone's expense!

Where is the diplomacy in getting along, if these tactics continue? Or is that the master plan to circumvent harmony as much as possible by nitpicking to start it all over again?

This post, by no means is meant to add to the issue, but plead for a return to common ground. The BS factor is drawing in flies!

DC

jhowelb

03-09-2008, 02:40 PM

The BS factor is drawing in flies!

Truer words were never written! Begs the question previously asked: "What's the point?"
Indeed, what is the point if anything one says will be examined for any way to use it for "bull bait" so some jerk can get his cookies feeling superior by aggravating the hell out of you. Once having learned that the real truth behind the baiting is to torment for the purpose of entertainment then one must take measures to insure that the offender gains no farther joy from ones distress.

The game is over. You have been uncovered and can no longer work your childish little tricks!!!

I, for one have had it and will no longer tolerate this crap! Nothing will ever be resolved, no points can be made,never will anyone be convinced of anything and indeed thinking folks can't even converse because of it.

This is the sense of exasperation I felt when I called for the thread to be closed.Civility and even common decency had ceased to exist. This is just one more facet of this mess.

For those who want to continue to feed on this diet, bon appetit!

skippy

03-09-2008, 05:57 PM

Oh pppllleeeaaassseee, you're the number one offender. Just take a look at how you treat xyzdonna just because her opinions don't line up with your's. Unlike me, she somehow manages to keep civil at all times in spite of your attacks. Luckily you can't nuke someone over the internet otherwise I sure you would have nuked her long ago.

xyzdonna

03-09-2008, 07:59 PM

Yep, you're right! It must be about time for another,,,,, now how was it called???? Oh yeh, "a pre-emptive strike of self defence". I just love that term. Maybe this time on Iran as you suggest.
I personally don't see Iran being any more dangerous than the USA when it comes to nuclear weapons but then again they're not in "the club". Which country, by the way, has the most WMDs and which country has actually carried out the most mass destruction? Let's see who does the crying and nose blowing (as you put it) now that someone has put in an alternative opinion which goes directly against your blinkered beliefs. It is also done. (meaning: I have had the last say so don't you dare contradict it) The part that I really enjoy is when someone like xyzdonna winds you up in an instant. "I'll be out of pocket this weekend so don't take it personal if I don't reply. I'm going to a liberal political confab in Nashville tonight" Just gotta love that girl as she knows exactly which buttons to push.

Thanks skippy,
I'm back and you're right, with jhowelb I know exactly which buttons to press. But he's real easy you see. Actually it was a lobbying tutorial on GLBT (gay, lesbian, bisexual and transgendered) issues. I'm straight but many friends are in the above mentioned group and I offer my support. Now what kind of mischief has jhowelb been making in my absence? I'm sure he thought he'd have free reign to spawn his ignorance while I was out of town. Fortuitously you came along to keep him in check.
Again you're correct, put a perfect moron in charge of one of the greatest nuclear arsenals on the planet was utter madness. But such is the American electorate. But as one great American president once said "you can't fool all the people all the time". Of course he also said "you can fool some of the people all the time". jhowelb is a perfect example of that. I think though that the free thinking independents are finally coming around to what this administration has perpetrated on the American people and the world. I think that this presidents greatest achievement will be the damage he has done to the Republican party!
Take care,
xyzdonna

xyzdonna

03-09-2008, 08:25 PM

Well I accept you as the authority on that kind of stuff. However, I will point out that terrorists don't use Migs. Going into Iraq was unnecessary and unwise; going in before completing the job in Afghanistan was utter idiocy. And your solution is to escalate things? When already US troops are being put in the field two and a half times longer than the US military said was the maximum tolerable just a few years ago. 4000 dead and 25,000 wounded; thousands of TBI victims being dumped back into their local community with inadequate support. And you want more of it?

Hi Geof,
You're being too kind. "Utter idiocy" is much too mild a term, although I can't think of anything better. Have you noticed how everything this administration does has to be revised, refined, done over and over again, before the results start getting better. Incompetent appointees have to be replaced with other incompetent appointees who are then replaced with marginally competent appointees who finally make a little headway on a failed stratagem. This is the most incompetent president in my lifetime, even Richard Nixon was better. He may have been a crook, but at least he was a smart crook. This president is a moron.
Take care,
xyzdonna

xyzdonna

03-09-2008, 08:37 PM

That is a relief. Considering the epithets and vitriol you have thrown my way, the only possible change in attitude is one for the better, it is inconceivable you could go the other way.

Hi Geof,
Your's is the voice of reason and knowledge, jhowelb is the voice of ignorance and superstition. The hope of mankind is that the voice of people like you will prevail, if not, all is lost.
Take care,
xyzdonna

mongo46538

03-10-2008, 06:38 AM

jhowelb

03-10-2008, 12:25 PM

Part of the scientific consensus on global warming may be flawed, a new study asserts.

The researchers compared predictions of 22 widely used climate "models" — elaborate schematics that try to forecast how the global weather system will behave — with actual readings gathered by surface stations, weather balloons and orbiting satellites over the past three decades.

The study, published online this week in the International Journal of Climatology, found that while most of the models predicted that the middle and upper parts of the troposphere —1 to 6 miles above the Earth's surface — would have warmed drastically over the past 30 years, actual observations showed only a little warming, especially over tropical regions.

"Can the models accurately explain the climate from the recent past? It seems that the answer is no," said lead study author David H. Douglass, a physicist specializing in climate at the University of Rochester.

Douglass and his co-authors S. Fred Singer, a physicist at the University of Virginia, and John R. Christy, a climatologist at the University of Alabama at Huntsville, are noted global-warming skeptics.

However, Christy was a major contributor to the 2001 report by the Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change, and is one of the world's premier authorities on collection and analysis of satellite-derived temperature data, having been commended by both NASA and the American Meteorological Society for his efforts.

"We do not see accelerated warming in the tropical troposphere," said Christy. "Instead, the lower and middle atmosphere are warming the same or less than the surface."

The difference between the climate models and the satellite data has been known for several years.

Studies in 2005 found that improper compensation for temperature differences between day and night was the cause of most of the satellite-data discrepancy, a correction that Christy has accepted.

No explanation has been put forth for the weather-balloon discrepancy.

jhowelb

03-10-2008, 01:29 PM

"Government is the great fiction, through which everybody endeavors to live at the expense of everybody else." -Frederic Bastiat, French Economist (1801-1850)

jhowelb

03-10-2008, 04:27 PM

Crews digging out in Midwest as storm roars east

* Story Highlights
* NEW: At least 10 deaths linked to weather system
* A record amount of snow falls in Columbus, Ohio
* Many flights in and out of Ohio are canceled or delayed
* System also hits Pennsylvania, Maryland, New Jersey, other states

COLUMBUS, Ohio (AP) -- Highway and utility crews worked overtime Sunday to recover from the huge storm that buried Ohio and other parts of the Midwest in snow and tore down power lines elsewhere.

More than 20 inches of snow fell from Friday through Saturday in Columbus, eclipsing the city's previous record of 15.3 inches set in February 1910, the National Weather Service said. Elsewhere, 14 inches fell at Milan, Indiana. Up to a foot fell in parts of Kentucky, Tennessee and Arkansas on Friday.

Many churches in the Columbus area canceled Sunday services because roads were so slippery.

Ohio's Cleveland Hopkins International Airport, which shut down Saturday, reopened Sunday, but flight delays and cancellations were expected as airlines tried to get their schedules back on track, spokesman Todd Payne said.

Delays also cropped up at Port Columbus International Airport, where 90 percent of flights were canceled Saturday. VideoWatch 'delay after delay' in Ohio »

Ohio had one traffic death linked to the weather, and four men died while shoveling snow. Two traffic deaths were blamed on the storm in western New York state and one in Tennessee. Two people were killed Friday as tornadoes spun out of the eastern edge of the weather system in Florida. VideoWatch cars spin out of control on icy roads in West Virginia »

The storm also made roads slippery and snow-covered in western New York and caused flooding that closed roads in other parts of the state. On Sunday, high wind and falling temperatures created brisk wind chills in much of the state. Tens of thousands were left without electricity.

Northern Maine also got heavy snow as the storm sped into Canada's Maritime Provinces, with 17.5 inches at St. Agatha, and 3 inches of rain fell at Robbinston in the state's eastern corner. A flood watch was in effect Sunday for wide areas of Maine, but officials said there was no widespread flooding. See snowy scenes through I-Reporters' eyes »

"We did dodge a bullet. We're just waiting for next shoe to drop," Weather Service hydrologist Tom Hawley said Sunday in Gray, Maine, just north of Portland, noting the potential for more rain this coming weekend.

At least 8,400 Vermont homes and businesses still had no power Sunday, down from a peak of some 20,000 during the storm Saturday, Central Vermont Public Service Corp. officials said. Repair crews were hampered by ice-covered roads and fallen trees.

Utility companies in southeastern Pennsylvania said Sunday they had restored power to most of the 80,000 customers who were blacked out Saturday when wind and falling tree limbs snapped power lines. VideoSee how the system has affected Ohio, Pennsylvania »

More than 100,000 New Jersey homes and businesses lost power at the height of thunderstorms that boiled up along the eastern part of the weather system, and some commuter train routes into New York City were blocked by fallen trees, authorities said. Wind gusted to 65 mph in New Jersey, the weather service said. VideoWatch a report on wind damage in New Jersey »

In Maryland, the storm system's wind blew a ship away from its pier Saturday in Baltimore. Coast Guard Petty Officer 3rd Class Ayla Stevens said no one was injured when the car carrier's mooring lines broke and the ship was pushed out into the city's harbor.

Copyright 2008 The Associated Press. All rights reserved.This material may not be published, broadcast, rewritten, or redistributed.

dufas

03-10-2008, 04:58 PM

Part of the scientific consensus on global warming may be flawed, a new study asserts.

Well, there goes their government grants up in smoke.....

One does not mess with the true believers..........

xyzdonna

03-10-2008, 06:08 PM

Keeling Curve (http://earthguide.ucsd.edu/globalchange/keeling_curve/01.html)

Anyone with the name Bluesman cant be all bad.

FEAR NOT, Man's greed will be his own saviour, now that green is fashionable, the new wave nerds we're procreating these days will respond to all the enviormental marketing. Hence, green cars and energy sources yadee yadee.
This is the Oil Companies last hurrah and they know it.
They'll never be able to buy another presidency and start another war.
Well never say never...but still

The reality is we have the time we need, we simply need to start paying attention and do something about it now.

Hi mongo46538,
I agree. We do have time and perhaps there is hope. I took a drive up to a political rally in Nashville, TN this weekend and my friend insisted we take his car. Since the weather looked snowey I said why don't we take my Tacoma 4X4. Nope, we're spliting the gas and he insists we take his Nissan. It opened my eyes I'll tell you that. His car gets about 27 or 28 MPG while my Tacoma gets about 16 or 17 MPG. Big difference. I'm thinking of trading in spouses 4X4 Ford Escape for a Nissan Maxima. So what if gas goes to $4/gal if you're getting 27 MPG. I think you're right as well, I don't think the oil companies will be able to buy another president like this one. T. Boone Pickens helped the current moron-in-chief get elected by his swift boat tactics. I don't think that will play next time.
Take care,
xyzdonna

xyzdonna

03-10-2008, 07:29 PM

jhowelb

03-10-2008, 07:59 PM

Well, there goes their government grants up in smoke.....

One does not mess with the true believers..........

Have you noticed that the more real evidence turns against them the more shrill and accusatory the rhetoric becomes? And I do believe it gets to them if one does not respond to the gutter level crap they spew. Speaking for myself, mind you, I will not in the future feed the trolls.

xyzdonna

03-10-2008, 08:00 PM

"Government is the great fiction, through which everybody endeavors to live at the expense of everybody else." -Frederic Bastiat, French Economist (1801-1850)

Hi jhowelb,
I took the time to do a little research on your French economist. Very interesting character.
To quote:
1. All economic decisions should be made with the consumer in mind. (This is central to Bastiat's ideas)
2. Tariffs serve no purpose but to negate the gains provided to society by technology, labor, ingenuity, determination and progress.

"An important corollary to these conclusions is that the power that consumers wield with any governing body, while theoretically tremendous, is extremely diffuse. Producers, on the other hand, while not as powerful on the whole as the sum total of consumers, have the ability to consolidate their power in ways that make it much more attractive for governing bodies to service their needs. Thus, while consumers could theoretically shut down an entire industry (or government) by refusing to buy/sell/do something, the likelihood of the great mass of people organizing in this way for any reason whatever is so infinitesimal as to be practically impossible. Producers, on the other hand, are able to threaten or cajole the government with shutting down a single industry, with reductions in political and financial contributions to the government agents who make certain decisions, &c. It is for this reason that governments are much more likely to pander to the desires of producers than to consumers, and it is for this reason, Bastiat concludes, that governments are inherently adversarial to the interests of the people as a whole. Indeed, they are even adversarial, in some way, to the interests of the producers themselves, as the producers of one good or service are still consumers of all the other goods and services."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fr%C3%A9d%C3%A9ric_Bastiat

Me: In other words the electorate has the power to effect change in theory but practically no. The special interests and large corporations seem to hold the political leverage. This administration is a perfect example of that. Pandering to big oil to go to war in Iraq, this has done nothing for the American consumer except make them poorer. It hasn't even helped big oil due to the incompetent execution of this war. Interesting how your citation has mooted your point.
Take care,
xyzdonna

jhowelb

03-10-2008, 08:16 PM

"A government which robs Peter to pay Paul can always depend on the support of Paul." -George Bernard Shaw

jhowelb

03-10-2008, 08:18 PM

"In general, the art of government consists of taking as much money as possible from one party of the citizens to give to the other." -Voltaire (1764)

martinw

03-10-2008, 09:42 PM

Hi mongo46538
So what if gas goes to $4/gal if you're getting 27 MPG.
xyzdonna

Dear xyzdonna,

You people really are the lucky ones. A gallon of gas over here costs the equivalent of about $10, and it will be taxed further in a couple of days' time.

The taxation will be brought in on the back of "Climate Change" bogus arguments initiated by the EU.

If I did not feel like laughing, I would be weeping.

Best wishes,

Martin

Geof

03-10-2008, 09:55 PM

...If I did not feel like laughing, I would be weeping....Martin

Don't you have it backwards? :confused:

jhowelb

03-10-2008, 10:03 PM

"Just because you do not take an interest in politics doesn't mean politics won't take an interest in you!" -Pericles (430 B.C.)

"No man's life, liberty, or property is safe while the legislature is in session." -Mark Twain (1866)

martinw

03-10-2008, 10:11 PM

Don't you have it backwards? :confused:

Dear Geof,

Laughing and weeping at the same time. What a horrible mess the UK has become.

Best wishes,

Martin

Geof

03-10-2008, 10:36 PM

Dear Geof,

Laughing and weeping at the same time. What a horrible mess the UK has become.

Best wishes,

Martin

Aw, don't feel too bad. I think the US and Canada are keeping you company.

Actually; think back, one, two, three decades, maybe four or five...or even six!!!! Would you rather be back there or here.

Or take my favourite response (and notice that I used the correct spelling of favourite based on the recipient), you could always being living in Bosnia-Herzcegovingia. And I have no idea if I have the spelling correct but you probably get the intent.

Frome the viewpoint of someone who lived and travelled in the UK nearly forty years ago, andf who has visited frequently in the past decade, you are not doing too bad.

martinw

03-10-2008, 10:59 PM

Aw, don't feel too bad.

Dear Geof,

Thank-you.

I just spent about five days looking at a pcb lay-out. That can screw your brains on at least five layers... sometimes even more..

Best wishes,

Martin

Geof

03-10-2008, 11:14 PM

Dear Geof,

Thank-you.

I just spent about five days looking at a pcb lay-out. That can screw your brains on at least five layers... sometimes even more..

Best wishes,

Martin

I suppose that is more or less equivalent to programming three sides of a part on a rotary fixture. Do you have the problem of people coming up to you when you have finally figured out the fourth layer and asking some inane question? That is why I spent a whole bunch of money to set up a prototype facility so I can work without distraction.

xyzdonna

03-11-2008, 06:42 AM

"In general, the art of government consists of taking as much money as possible from one party of the citizens to give to the other." -Voltaire (1764)

Hi jhowelb,
Quoting another Frenchman are you? I liked Voltaire, his work Candide was magnificent. Did you know: "Voltaire distrusted democracy, which he saw as propagating the idiocy of the masses." A lot of truth to that. Our present administration is a perfect example in fact. As long as you're dredging up arcane quotes I may as well counter them. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Voltaire
Take care,
xyzdonna

xyzdonna

03-11-2008, 06:54 AM

Dear xyzdonna,

You people really are the lucky ones. A gallon of gas over here costs the equivalent of about $10, and it will be taxed further in a couple of days' time.

The taxation will be brought in on the back of "Climate Change" bogus arguments initiated by the EU.

If I did not feel like laughing, I would be weeping.

Best wishes,

Martin

Dear Martin,
That's just terrible! Of course distances are greater on this end of the world. The closest major city, Atlanta, is over a hundred miles away. The beltway that encircles the metro area of Atlanta I-285, is about 60 miles long. The city I live in Chattanooga, TN is more compact with less traffic. This is good. We also work out of our house which further reduces travel, this is very good.
Take care,
xyzdonna

jhowelb

03-11-2008, 09:33 AM

A winter without end
Who'd believe spring is just 11 days away?
Posted 1 day ago

It's snow joke.

Hold onto your hats, scarves and shovels. Weather forecasters are predicting even more of the white stuff Tuesday after a brief respite today following the weekend's blizzard that blanketed eastern Ontario.

David Rodgers, a senior meteorologist for Environment Canada, said Sunday more snow is coming this way tomorrow and Wednesday, but that the flurries would be more forgiving with only a few centimetres expected to fall.

"It's nothing to be concerned about," said Rodgers.

Residents and city snowplows were still digging out Sunday from the storm that left towering snow banks along city streets and caused hundreds of accidents on regional highways since Friday just in time for the beginning of March break.

The sheer amount of snow and sleet - 32.5 centimetres measured at the city's water pollution control plant - that fell on Brockville over the weekend is taking its tolls on residents ready to retire their shovels.

The northern parts of Leeds and Grenville received 40 to 50 centimetres.

According to Russ Fraser, public works supervisor, that brings this winter's total to 286 centimetres, 200 of that since the start of the year.

"I'm sick of it," shouted Jacquie Boisvert over the noise of snowblowers in her north-end neighborhood on Laurier Blvd.

"I've had it," she said, carrying two shovels into her driveway as husband Dan cleared the sidewalk with a snowblower.

"I've been living here for 10 years and I've never seen so much snow," he said, adding optimistically: "It's starting to melt, so that's good."

"It's good exercise," said Steve Price, who was busy clearing his driveway downtown Sunday with a shovel. "It's about time we had a real winter. I know I'm in the minority but this feels like the kind of winter we had when I was a kid."

Children didn't seem to mind the snow one bit either. "We can have fun," Nicholas Perry said cheerily before tobogganing down a huge snow bank in front of his house with his sister Jamie, 4.

But the snow kept city crews working all weekend.

"Let me put it this way," said Fraser in an interview Sunday. "I'm looking forward to spring."

Snowplow trucks were out in full force to clear the core downtown and north-end streets Saturday and Sunday along with major traffic arteries. The rest of the city's narrow side streets will be tackled today, he said. "It's going to take us a couple of days to get these sidewalks cleaned up."

Climatologists had predicted this would be the worst winter Canada has endured in 15 years. Temperatures are not as low as in previous record years in Ontario, but the level of snow is approaching record levels. Environment Canada says Ottawa is approaching a record-breaking year with 410.7 centimetres this year compared to the previous record of 444.6 centimetres that fell in the winter of 1970-71.

But most winter-weary residents appeared to be taking the weather in stride over the weekend.

"You have to make it fun," said Genevieve Adriaen, who was walking her dogs Nimo and Toolo on King Street.

"You can't grouch about it," she said, adding: "It's a beautiful day for a walk."

Nelda Peterson watched in wonder from the warmth of her downtown home as snowflakes swirled outside her window Saturday.

"This is the worst it's been for quite some time," observed the 89-year-old who grew up in Ontario. She said all the snow reminds her of going for horsesleigh rides as a child near Winchester.

"It's really beautiful to look outside," she said, adding she would stay in the comfort of her home until it's over.

Downtown at the Dive Brockville Adventure Centre, owner Helen Cooper was looking out at the river obscured by snow across Water Street wondering if her boats will get in the water as planned by month's end.

While people can scuba dive year-round in the St. Lawrence River depending on conditions, most are taking their wetsuits and gear south for March break, said Cooper.

"A lot of people are going to Mexico and Florida," she said as snowplow trucks rolled by her shop. Scuba diving attracts about 30,000 people to Brockville annually with most visiting in the summer months. Cooper is among many weather-dependent business owners in the area looking forward to an end to winter.

Most residents seem resigned to more snow in store for March even though spring is officially marked down on the calendar for March 21.

"It just seems you get it cleaned up and it starts all over again," said Dwight Ogilvie as he wiped off the snow on the windshield of his car parked downtown by city hall. "I'm too old to play in it," he said, shrugging with a smile.

xyzdonna

03-11-2008, 11:10 AM

Hi jhowelb,
One cold winter in Canada is not a precursor to the end of global warming. BTW, I'm wearing shorts today, it's going up to 57 deg. F down here.
Take care and stay warm,
xyzdonna

jhowelb

03-11-2008, 11:30 AM

Hi everybody,
Before I leave this thread I thought I'd leave you with this:
Take care,
xyzdonna

Good Bye jhowelb,
Are you going to miss me?
Take care,
xyzdonna
.

One of Many

03-11-2008, 01:32 PM

.

Originally Posted by xyzdonna
Hi everybody,
Before I leave this thread I thought I'd leave you with this:
Take care,
xyzdonna

Originally Posted by xyzdonna
Good Bye jhowelb,
Are you going to miss me?
Take care,
xyzdonna

The interrogation is complete. The guinea pig subject is no longer useful. The report filed, peer reviewed and comfirmed an enviro-mental NUT CASE.:)

Being put on constant defense gives others the illusion that you are the problem. The intrinsic personal issue with liberlism at large, is to spread misery, guilt and fault in an effort to deflect victim status for their own shortcomings by controlling yours. Some will never grow out of that selfish rebellious stage. There is a sense justice found in casting their own ignorance and superstition on independent thinkers that refuse to partake in that charade. There is greater peace in rejection then retaliation. History has shown, it always returns for further bull baiting whilst escalating the childish acrimony.

DC

These are quite apropos;

Psychology and the Political (http://cfp.english.upenn.edu/archive/Postcolonial/0025.html)

The Gottfried Analysis (http://www.vdare.com/roberts/worry.htm)

dynosor

03-11-2008, 02:18 PM

One cold winter in Canada is not a precursor to the end of global warming.

And LESS than one degree Celcius rise over 100 years is hardly "global warming". Especially when it has already dropped back below the peak seen 10 years ago. Why not set the benchmark for GW at the higher peaks seen before the Little Ice Age a few 100 years ago and call the "problem" Global Cooling?

Oh, I forgot. That evil gas causes warming, not cooling and that simply won't fit in with the political agenda of global energy control.

PS it isn't only Canada that is seeing unusual cold...

xyzdonna

03-11-2008, 02:22 PM

.

Hi jhowelb,
I know, I know, I change my mind. But every time I leave I peek back in and what do I find? jhowelb running amuck, happily posting bogus facts, all entirely unsubstantiated. I can't stand it, I have to come back and correct all your misconceptions. I've tried to leave, I really have but I think you need me to keep you in check. Otherwise you might come to believe there is no such thing as GW.
Take care,
xyzdonna

fizzissist

03-11-2008, 02:26 PM

jhowelb

03-11-2008, 02:42 PM

Is it me or is the mainstream media moving from the term "global warming" to "climate change"??

Clever way to cover your ass if it gets cooler instead of warmer...

"Climate change" is what Eliot Spitzer is experiencing politically....while "global warming" is no doubt what he's experiencing at home....

I disagree, I think there is a marked chill in the air at home as well. Now there might be some overheating discomfort to be found in his Southern parts as relates to party bosses. Tooth abrasion tends to feel very warm!
:):):):eek::eek::eek::):):) (SOS)

jhowelb

03-11-2008, 02:44 PM

jhowelb

03-11-2008, 02:48 PM

The interrogation is complete. The guinea pig subject is no longer useful. The report filed, peer reviewed and comfirmed an enviro-mental NUT CASE.:)

Being put on constant defense gives others the illusion that you are the problem. The intrinsic personal issue with liberlism at large, is to spread misery, guilt and fault in an effort to deflect victim status for their own shortcomings by controlling yours. Some will never grow out of that selfish rebellious stage. There is a sense justice found in casting their own ignorance and superstition on independent thinkers that refuse to partake in that charade. There is greater peace in rejection then retaliation. History has shown, it always returns for further bull baiting whilst escalating the childish acrimony.

DC

These are quite apropos;

Psychology and the Political (http://cfp.english.upenn.edu/archive/Postcolonial/0025.html)

The Gottfried Analysis (http://www.vdare.com/roberts/worry.htm)

Isn't there usually a post mortem autopsy?

One of Many

03-11-2008, 03:25 PM

Isn't there usually a post mortem autopsy?

Do we really need to prove $hit for brains is where that fecal matter spewing tripe comes from? Garbage in, Garbage out. It's the scent of delusion that attracts those flies, not knowing that its crap or whom initiates it and keeps comes back to leave more!

Watch where you step, it lingers on. Its messy and stinks, but once it is scraped off on the front door mat, you can ignore it for the most part.

Then its someone else's problem to track all over the place.:)

DC

fizzissist

03-11-2008, 03:49 PM

I have to come back and correct all your misconceptions. I've tried to leave, I really have but I think you need me to keep you in check. Otherwise you might come to believe there is no such thing as GW.

Great!!
Someone here knows the facts!!

Could you be so kind as to post what the normal world temperature is SUPPOSED to be??

jhowelb

03-11-2008, 04:12 PM

Do we really need to prove for brains is where that fecal matter spewing tripe comes from? Garbage in, Garbage out. It's the scent of delusion that attracts those flies, not knowing that its crap or whom initiates it and keeps comes back to leave more!

Watch where you step, it lingers on. Its messy and stinks, but once it is scraped off on the front door mat, you can ignore it for the most part.

Then its someone else's problem to track all over the place.:)

DC

AhHa! I thought I had detected the odor of bovine exhaust! Now if we can harness it as a fuel source we have an unending supply!!!!

jhowelb

03-11-2008, 04:15 PM

Great!!
Someone here knows the facts!!

Could you be so kind as to post what the normal world temperature is SUPPOSED to be??

I'll take a stab at it! Between -100* and +300*! YOU pick the scale and it's still the same, beyond our control!!!

Mariss Freimanis

03-11-2008, 05:15 PM

xyzdonna

03-11-2008, 06:22 PM

Hello everybody,
Get a load of this:
"European Union leaders open a two-day summit on global warming Thursday, and they are expected to warn countries such as the U.S. and China that they could face EU trade sanctions if they don't accept, and comply with, a new international accord aimed at reducing C02 emissions.

A draft summit statement speaks of taking "appropriate measures" against industrialized — and industrializing — nations, if they prove to be laggards on climate change."
http://www.iht.com/articles/ap/2008/03/11/europe/EU-GEN-EU-Summit-Climate-Change.php

So it would appear that whether it is or isn't happening is moot, the European Union is proceeding under the assumption that it is.

"This package helps the European Union to preserve its role of global leader. In this we are maintaining our credibility,"

So if the US doesn't play along they will face trade restrictions. It would seem that they are taking leadership in the vacuum created by the leadership of this administration. This could be serious economically for the US. Fortuitously this administration will soon be gone.
Take care,
xyzdonna

jhowelb

03-11-2008, 06:41 PM

This thread seems to have developed the digital equivalent of a herpes infection (herpes simplexyz). 3 outbreaks so far with a pessimistic prognosis of many more for the rest of this thread's life. As they say, avoid conversationally polite intercourse during outbreaks and use protection offered by scientific facts between outbreaks. Logic, applied immediately after the first sign of an outbreak may lessen the severity and duration of an H. simplexyz episode. To avoid getting infected in the first place, get Ann Coulter's 17-week New York Times bestseller "How to Talk to a Liberal (If You Must)".

Mariss

The trick is to never speak directly to one of them as they begin to foam at the mouth and snap at every sound. I think the infestation is rabies but I can't tell if it was brought here by the dog or the *****! In either case, one should avoid being bitten or mauled.

I hav plagiarized a statement and will present it without credits

"The other day I was reading Newsweek magazine and came across some poll data I found rather hard to believe. It must be true, given the source, right?

The Newsweek poll alleges that 67 percent of Americans are unhappy with the direction the country is headed, and 69 percent of the country is unhappy with the performance of the President. In essence, 2/3's of the citizenry just ain't happy and want a change.

So being the knuckle dragger I am, I started thinking, ''What are we so unhappy about?''
Is it that we have electricity and running water 24 hours a day, 7 days a week?

Is our unhappiness the result of having air conditioning in the summer and heating in the winter?

Could it be that 95.4 percent of these unhappy folks have a job?

Maybe it is the ability to walk into a grocery store at any time, and see more food in moments than Darfur has seen in the last year?

Maybe it is the ability to drive from the Pacific Ocean to the Atlantic Ocean without having to present identification papers as we move through each state?

Or possibly the hundreds of clean and safe motels we would find along the way that can provide temporary shelter?

I guess having thousands of restaurants with varying cuisine from around the world is just not good enough.

Or could it be that when we wreck our car, emergency workers show up and provides services to help all, and even send a helicopter to take you to the hospital.

Perhaps you are one of the 70 percent of Americans who own a home. You may be upset with knowing that in the unfortunate case of a fire, a group of trained firefighters will appear in moments and use top notch equipment to extinguish the flames thus saving you, your family and your belongings.

Or if, while at home watching o NE of your many flat screen TVs, a burglar or prowler intrudes, an officer equipped with a gun and a bullet-proof vest will come to defend you and your family against attack or loss.

This all in the backdrop of a neighborhood free of bombs or militias raping and pillaging the residents. Neighborhoods where 90 percent of teenagers own cell phones and computers.

How about the complete religious, social and political freedoms we enjoy that are the envy of everyone in the world?

Maybe that is what has 67 percent of you folks unhappy.

Fact is, we are the largest group of ungrateful, spoiled brats the world has ever seen. No wonder the world loves the U.S. , yet has a great disdain for its citizens . They see us for what we are. The most blessed people in the world who do nothing but complain about wh at we d on't have , and what we hate about the country instead of thanking the good Lord we live here.

I know, I know. What about the President who took us into war and has no plan to get us out? The President who has a measly 31 percent approval rating? Is this the same President who guided the nation in the dark days after 9/11? The President that cut taxes to bring an economy out of recession? Could this be the same guy who has been called every name in the book for succeeding in keeping all the spoiled ungrateful brats safe from terrorist attacks?

The Commander-In Chief of an all-volunteer army that is out there defending you and me? Did you hear how bad the President is on the news or talk show? Did this news affect you so much, make you so unhappy you couldn't take a look around for yourself and see all the good things and be glad?

Think about it...are you upset at the President because he actually caused you personal pain OR is it because the "Media" told you he was failing to kiss your sorry ungrateful behind every day.

Make no mistake about it. The troops in Iraq and Afghanistan have volunteered to serve, and in many cases may have died for your freedom. There is currently no draft in this country. They didn't have to go.

They are able to refuse to go and end up with either a ''general'' discharge, an ''other than honorable'' discharge or, worst case scenario, a ''dishonorable'' discharge after a few days in the brig.

So why then the flat-out discontentment in the minds of 69 percent of Americans? Say what you want, but I blame it on the media. If it bleeds, it leads; and they specialize in bad news. Everybody will watch a car crash with blood and guts. How many will watch kids selling lemonade at the corner? The media knows this and media outlets are for-profit corporations. They offer what sells, and when criticized, try to defend their actions by "justifying" them in one way or another. Just ask why they tried to allow a murderer like O.J. Simpson to write a book about "how he didn't kill his wife, but if he did he would have done it this way"...Insane!

Stop buying the negativism you are fed everyday by the media. Shut off the TV, burn Newsweek, and use the New York Times for the bottom of your bird cage. Then start being grateful for all we have as a country. There is exponentially more good than bad.

We are among the most blessed people on Earth, and should thank God several times a day, or at least be thankful and appreciative.

"With hurricanes, tornadoes, fires out of control, mud slides, flooding, severe thunderstorms tearing up the country from one end to another, and with the threat of bird flu and terrorist attacks, "Are we sure this is a good time to take God out of the Pledge of Allegiance?"

xyzdonna

03-11-2008, 06:55 PM

And LESS than one degree Celcius rise over 100 years is hardly "global warming". Especially when it has already dropped back below the peak seen 10 years ago. Why not set the benchmark for GW at the higher peaks seen before the Little Ice Age a few 100 years ago and call the "problem" Global Cooling?

Oh, I forgot. That evil gas causes warming, not cooling and that simply won't fit in with the political agenda of global energy control.

PS it isn't only Canada that is seeing unusual cold...

Hi dynosor,
Quote: "Land and sea measurements independently show much the same warming since 1860 [8]. The data from these stations show an average surface temperature increase of about 0.74 °C during the last 100 years. The Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change (IPCC) stated in its Fourth Assessment Report (AR4) that the temperature rise over the 100 year period from 1906-2005 was 0.74 °C [0.56 to 0.92 °C] with a confidence interval of 90%."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Instrumental_temperature_record#The_global_record_from_1850

Admittedly that doesn't sound like a lot, but the CO2 levels have been rising steadily. Since 1832 it has gone from about 284 to 384 in 2007 ppmv (parts per million by volume). I know there are many factors that effect the earth's climate and CO2 is just one of them. I just don't know how they know how big a factor it will be. I don't know if sunspots play a greater roll since they are associated with greater solar radiation or CO2 since it's associated with retaining that radiation.
Here's this from Wikipedia:
The variation caused by the sunspot cycle to solar output is relatively small, on the order of 0.1% of the solar constant (a peak-to-trough range of 1.3 W m-2 compared to 1366 W m-2 for the average solar constant)[4][5]. This range is slightly smaller than the change in radiative forcing caused by the increase in atmospheric CO2 since the 18th century[6]. During the Maunder Minimum in the 17th Century there were hardly any sunspots at all. This coincides with a period of cooling known as the Little Ice Age.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sunspots
Hope this helps,
Take care,
xyzdonna

xyzdonna

03-11-2008, 07:00 PM

Mariss Freimanis

03-11-2008, 07:46 PM

jhowelb

03-11-2008, 07:59 PM

David Horowitz is living proof that it can be done. He was raised as a Communist by two card carrying Communist and even participated in the Black Panthers for a time. But he had a fully functioning cerebral cortex.

fizzissist

03-11-2008, 09:06 PM

Hi Mariss,
Ann Coulter? That witch is so far right she thinks Bush is a liberal. ...xyzdonna

Gore's Global Warming Religion
by Ann Coulter
(Posted: 03/21/2007)

"No matter how much liberals try to dress up their nutty superstitions about global warming as "science," which only six-fingered lunatics could doubt, scratch a global warming "scientist" and you get a religious fanatic....."

http://www.humanevents.com/article.php?id=19927

You're right! She's right!!

xyzdonna

03-11-2008, 09:13 PM

You really need to get a grip and get grounded in reality. I will help you start:

1) Fox Cable News for fair and balanced news reporting.
2) Rush Limbaugh for unbiased political commentary and analysis.
3) Matt Drudge for breaking news and general interest stories from around the world.
4) Ann Coulter for wit and insight on all matters political to open your mind.
5) Laura Schlesinger for insight about the human condition and how we are moral beings.
6) David Horowitz's FrontPage Magazine to give you hope one can recover from liberalitis.

Please be brave and try this. At first you will scream "I'm melting, I'm melting!" like the Wicked Witch of the East. There will be pain because you need a lot of deprogramming to undo the brainwashing you have been exposed to. It will pass as cool, clear reason and logic replaces the squirming mess that's in your head right now. You cannot be blamed for what liberals have done to you. They made it so you can't think; all you can do is feel. To bad everyone can't be there to help you so 'feel' of it as a self-applied intervention. Thinking will come, I promise.

Try it for a month, then report back afterwards how its helped you. You can get well if you want to. Please, for everyone's sake and your own, please take a month. Or maybe 2 or 3.

Mariss

Hi Mariss,
That's funny! Actually I used to listen to Rush Limbaugh all the time and still watch Fox News. I've caught Ann and Laura a few times. I'm afraid I'm ignorant of Matt Drudge and David Horowitz, I'll have to rectify that.
The essence of liberalism is an open mind, to constantly entertain the arguments of those with whom you disagree. I love nothing better than to hear someone of great intellect expound on issues and take an opposite tact to my own opinion. I guess that's why I enjoyed listening to William F. Buckley so.
Liberals come in various flavors. We run the spectrum from conservative liberals to liberal liberals, I'm sure conservatives do as well. There's probably a bell shaped curve in there don't you think?
The important thing is that which works. Does conservatism hold the greatest hope or liberalism? Ah, there's the conundrum. Let us consider conservatism, the basic idea is I earned it so I should keep it right? Sounds good and simple enough, but did you earn it? Well, yes but you had a little bit of help from everybody out there. Your daughter who is in the armed forces to protect us, she helped you earn it. So we have to take something from your earnings to pay her salary and other functions of government. I suppose the question is, how far does it go? I would think that is what defines the question of liberalism or conservatism, how far should we go. Again, the important thing is that which works.
Suppose the object is to maximize the utility of society to bring the greatest benefit to it's members. Is this best accomplished by liberalism or conservatism? It may prove to be a blend, a little bit of conservatism mixed with liberalism. Of course it's going to be too complicated for mere mortals to divine, it will have to be determined by computers and artificial intelligence. Think computer weather models of climate change to gain a perspective on the complexity of this issue. Maybe the next election will bring the answer. Perhaps, if a liberal wins, and the country is saved from the concatenated catastrophes that the conservatives have wrought!
Take care,
xyzdonna

jhowelb

03-11-2008, 09:42 PM

Hmmm...THREE liberals running, do you think a liberal will win?

xyzdonna

03-11-2008, 09:51 PM

Hmmm...THREE liberals running, do you think a liberal will win?

Hi jhowelb,
It's not a given, you've got more of the same McCain in there. He could well get elected, you can never underestimate the "Average American Idiot".
Take care,
xyzdonna

One of Many

03-11-2008, 10:24 PM

Mariss Freimanis

03-11-2008, 10:37 PM

Let's see: +2 points for the reasonable opening observations, -3 points for the obligatory shopworn insult at the closing and +1/2 point for the triple alliteration in said insult. Given your obsession with expressing contempt for the likes of me I won't bother answering the coherent opening portion to the likes of you. Good questions though.

Mariss

Mariss Freimanis

03-11-2008, 11:02 PM

One of Many

03-11-2008, 11:15 PM

One of Many,

What I admire in Ann Coulter is her courage of character. She recognizes and will not succumb to self-censorship, an insidious form of tacit acquiescence to the norms being set by extreme left wing liberals like Mrs. Clinton and others. She expresses herself with wit and humor as her only weapons in a deadly earnest battle. One things liberals cannot stand is to be laughed at.

Mariss

Self-censorship and the Clinton's? One of the main tactics for any liberal is to put a limit on free speech, unless it has prior approval by their dictated standards. If they could be the "thought police", they would take that on too!

By the way, shouldn't that have been Laura Ingrahm, not Dr. Laura? I do not hear Dr. Laura like I used to when in traveling as a Field Service Tech.

DC

Mariss Freimanis

03-11-2008, 11:41 PM

martinw

03-12-2008, 12:31 AM

Read this,

http://www.spectator.co.uk/melaniephillips/550481/the-mammoth-global-warming-scam.thtml

Best wishes,

Martin

One of Many

03-12-2008, 12:36 AM

Perhaps I was misunderstood. By self-censorship I meant it's what we as good people do to get along with noisy left. We muzzle ourselves so as not to irritate them and create controversy. We avoid confrontation and causing embarrassment while they live by it.

I did actually mean Dr. Laura. She has won a very wide audience through her hard work over the years and this audience resonates with her practical advice and moral outlook. The people and news outlet I listed have the pulse of the ordinary American. I respect Laura Ingrahm and I enjoy her every time she is on FCN but her reach is more limited than the aforementioned.

Mariss

I sort of took it opposite at first, but in the end, we stated near the same concepts. Tis true. Liberals have come to expect you to couch your arguments so they can scourge you with their's as the superior authority. Any objection or retort is deflected into subterfuge to regain the upper hand with addition ridicule.

DC

xyzdonna

03-12-2008, 06:58 AM

Read this,

http://www.spectator.co.uk/melaniephillips/550481/the-mammoth-global-warming-scam.thtml

Best wishes,

Martin

Hi Martin,

That article is interesting, here is a tidbit from it:

"In January 2008, environmental scientist professor Delgado Domingos of Portugal, the founder and director of the Numerical Weather Forecast group, announced publicly that he considered CO2 related climate fears to be ‘dangerous nonsense.’ Domingos, who retired in 2006, has more than 150 published articles in the research fields of Thermodynamics, Numerical Methods in Fluid Mechanics and Meteorological Forecast. ‘There are measurable climate changes but there is also an enormous manipulation in reducing everything to CO2 and equivalents. The main gas producing the green house effect is water vapor. The present alarm on climate change is an instrument of social control, a pretext for major businesses and political battle. It became an ideology, which is concerning,’ Domingos said…"

If this is true, and it well may be, then it is awful that scientists would manipulate the data for research grants or to be on the bandwagon so to speak. Science is supposed to be the bastion of truth. As I said in a previous post the CO2 levels have increased from 284 to 384 ppmv in the last 100 and something years. That is quite a percentage. On the other hand water vapor is a more potent green house gas. It does seem strange that these tiny amounts of CO2 would cause the earth to heat up precipitously. I don't know, I'm not a research scientist.
Of course you've quoted this rag before Martin and it obviously has a conservative bias. :>)
Take care,
xyzdonna

Geof

03-12-2008, 08:48 AM

Well I have been a goooood boy for a while and not posted. And the tone does not seem to have improved. Perhaps I was not the cause of all the nonsense. That is a relief.

jhowelb

03-12-2008, 09:54 AM

Read this,

http://www.spectator.co.uk/melaniephillips/550481/the-mammoth-global-warming-scam.thtml

Best wishes,

Martin

Yeah, Martin! .....that "rag"! You know that tactic, don't you? If you don't like the message......KILL the messenger! Or at lest impale his character, and run down his family. And anyone who may have provide the pen or paper!

In the end it makes no difference what evidence you bring forward, you won't make a dent. It is pointless!

xyzdonna

03-12-2008, 11:05 AM

xyzdonna

03-12-2008, 11:10 AM

Well I have been a goooood boy for a while and not posted. And the tone does not seem to have improved. Perhaps I was not the cause of all the nonsense. That is a relief.

Welcome back Geof,
You've been missed. jhowelb is running amuck again. BTW, what's your considered opinion of what this increase in CO2 from 284 to 384 ppmv would probably bring to the planet? I saw a thing on TV the other night and that atmosphere is loaded with CO2 and it's hot as hell on Venus.
Take care,
xyzdonna

fizzissist

03-12-2008, 11:36 AM

I saw a thing on TV the other night and .......
xyzdonna

Did your thing on TV the other night explain why the polar ice caps on Mars are receding?? What about the signs of warming on other planetary moons?

Mariss Freimanis

03-12-2008, 11:45 AM

jhowelb

03-12-2008, 12:01 PM

David Mamet: Why I Am No Longer a 'Brain-Dead Liberal'
An election-season essay
by David Mamet
March 11th, 2008 12:00 AM

<snip>

I wrote a play about politics . And as part of the "writing process," as I believe it's called, I started thinking about politics. This comment is not actually as jejune as it might seem. Porgy and Bess is a buncha good songs but has nothing to do with race relations, which is the flag of convenience under which it sailed.

But my play, it turned out, was actually about politics, which is to say, about the polemic between persons of two opposing views. The argument in my play is between a president who is self-interested, corrupt, suborned, and realistic, and his leftish, lesbian, utopian-socialist speechwriter.

<snip>

The rest of the article in pdf.

jhowelb

03-12-2008, 12:05 PM

Did your thing on TV the other night explain why the polar ice caps on Mars are receding?? What about the signs of warming on other planetary moons?

Anything that does not conform to the preferred conclusion is rejected, ignored and discarded!

One of Many

03-12-2008, 12:31 PM

Well I have been a goooood boy for a while and not posted. And the tone does not seem to have improved. Perhaps I was not the cause of all the nonsense. That is a relief.

You are only part of the problem when you nitpick a posting for puritanical rectifications. Although those may be well intentioned in your view. The poster may not appreciate the rebuke. Other than that, you are harmless and very informative!:)

I think remaining a moderate, you can see both the good and bad of either side.

The pattern is still the same. Return of the uncivilized, brings out the incivility in defense.

DC

jhowelb

03-12-2008, 01:22 PM

U.S. Army to Turn Piles of Trash Into Power in Iraq
Wednesday, March 12, 2008

WEST LAFAYETTE, Ind. —
The water bottles, plastic foam plates and other trash discarded by American troops in Iraq's mess halls may soon be serving double-duty — as an unlikely power source to illuminate barracks and power up laptops.

The Army is preparing to deploy to Iraq two 4-ton biomass refineries designed to turn piles of trash into electricity.

Each can run for 20 hours on a ton of trash, producing enough power to light a small village.

The novel machines were built by defense contractors and Purdue University scientists as part of the Army's push to reduce troops' diesel fuel use in Iraq, where convoys are frequently targeted by insurgents.

Army planners say cutting the fuel needs of the generators that power military encampments will mean fewer trips into harm's way for soldiers who drive tanker trucks. It will also free up more fuel for tanks, Humvees and other military equipment.

But first the machines, dubbed "tactical biorefineries" by the military, must perform well during their six-month test in a combat zone.

They'll face windblown dust and grit, 120-degree temperatures and the risk of breakdowns when they arrive in the Baghdad area in early May.

"We want to put them under those kinds of stresses and see how they do. We want commanders to say, 'This thing is really worth looking at,"' said Jerry Warner, CEO of chief contractor Defense Life Sciences LLC of McLean, Va.

In 2006, the Army commissioned Defense Life Sciences, Purdue biomass experts and three other companies to build a prototype refinery.

An updated version completed last year at a cost of about $1 million now sits in an unheated warehouse on Purdue's West Lafayette campus awaiting a final shakedown before deployment.

The same team is currently building the second unit.

Nate Mosier, an assistant professor of agricultural and biological engineering who is overseeing the work at Purdue, said the refineries are unique in their ability to burn multiple fuels at once. They're also portable, designed to fit snugly into a standard shipping container.

The trash-to-energy process begins when unfiltered garbage is fed into a chute, falling into a grinder that chews the trash into small pieces.

Organic food waste heads to a bioreactor where an industrial fermenting process produces ethanol. In another chamber, plastic, cardboard and other trash items are heated to create low-grade propane or methane.

Those gases and the ethanol are then combusted in the refinery's modified diesel engine, which powers a 60-kilowatt generator.

About 10 percent of the electricity the refineries produce are used for the machines' power needs, but the remaining 90 percent would be available for the troops.

Beyond the military applications, the refineries could provide temporary power after natural disasters. Mosier said they could be set up near hospitals or shelters to supply power and light, while feeding off the trash those locations produce.

If they work well, a fleet of them could be built and sent to Iraq, Afghanistan or other combat zones, said Dan Nolan, who works on a program overseen by the Office of the Secretary of Defense that's trying to reduce the military's use of fossil fuels.

"This is probably the most ambitious program we've done. We think there's a high probability of success. But until we put it out there, and into the operational vacuum, we won't really know," Nolan said.

But even if they do work, the refineries will only save the military a drop in its fuel bucket. Each of the refineries should save about 115 gallons of diesel fuel a day, Nolan said. The U.S. military brings 1.29 million gallons of fuel to Iraq each day.

Another effort to reduce fuel consumption is a 5-kilowatt hybrid electric power station being tested by a contractor in California. It uses a conventional generator paired with wind turbines, solar collectors and battery storage capacity.

The biomass refineries are the first portable refineries of their kind, said John Scahill, a project manager with the Department of Energy's field office in Golden, Colo., which works on biomass projects like those that are part of the refineries.

He said that if the demonstration in Iraq is a success, it could catch the eye of private investors looking for ways to hold down their costs amid rising energy prices.

"This type of technology is going to find many more opportunities," Scahill said. "Businesses that generate some biomass waste stream have the ability to take that and convert it into something useful."

And now the question, "will the 'Idiot in Chief' also get credit for something "good'?"

xyzdonna

03-12-2008, 02:05 PM

Ever hear of the inverse square law? Venus is 67 million miles from the sun while we are 93 million miles away. 1 / (S1 / S2)^2 or, 1 / (67 X 10^6 / 93 X 10^6)^2 = 1.927. Venus gets nearly twice (1.927) the solar radiation the earth does. That may have a little to do with how Venus evolved as well, seeing as how the absence of liquid water couldn't fix carbon into carbonates.:-)

Mariss

Hi Mariss,
Yep, knew about the inverse sq. law just didn't know that Venus was that much closer to the sun than the earth was. Point taken, but I'm sure the atmospheric CO2 helps trap more of the suns rays. That and the sulfuric acid in the clouds.
Take care,
xyzdonna

xyzdonna

03-12-2008, 02:07 PM

Did your thing on TV the other night explain why the polar ice caps on Mars are receding?? What about the signs of warming on other planetary moons?

Hi fizzissist,
No, this was just about Venus. I wonder what's up on Mars? They don't have much of an atmosphere there, why would the ice caps be receding?
Take care,
xyzdonna

Mariss Freimanis

03-12-2008, 02:32 PM

fizzissist

03-12-2008, 04:04 PM

Hi fizzissist,
No, this was just about Venus. I wonder what's up on Mars? They don't have much of an atmosphere there, why would the ice caps be receding?
Take care,
xyzdonna

Why would the ice caps on distant planets be receding??
Hmmmmmm....don't think it's SUVs, .....don't think it's coal plants.....don't think it's EvilBigOil......
....
Lemme think here for a minit....Oohhhh, Ooohhh...I know!!
It's something that Earth AND the other planets have in common!!

Naw....couldn't be the sun.

Would absolutely HAVE to be something that constitutes POINT ZERO THREE EIGHT PERCENT of our atmosphere, and only that portion that man contributes. Right?
---------------------------------------------------------------
Science isn't liberal. Science isn't conservative. Science isn't consensus either. Consensus is politics, consensus is religion.

xyzdonna

03-12-2008, 06:43 PM

One of Many,

I would have liked to be known as neither liberal, moderate or conservative. Rather, I would have preferred to keep my views private about those matters. That worked OK until the fulminating and vituperative XY burst upon the scene spewing political invective. It was XY who pointed out the error of my stance; nature abhors a vacuum so something always fills it and if you stay silent it implies you agree.

The endless robotic repetition of "idiot-in-chief" and other thoughtful liberal insights regarding conservatives has a purpose. Repetition, left unanswered, brings familiarity and eventually acceptance of what is being repeated. It is a common propaganda technique. If no one challenges it, good people look around and think they are alone with their unvoiced reservations. They eventually think maybe they are the ones out of step so they get with the program.

It baffled me why XY has such a dogged determination with the GW-algae-sludge thing. How does someone find the time to come up with 3 or more "personally researched" articles a day? It is baffling until you see the tie-in with the political insult thing. It is a complete package, religion and dogma. Since zealots tend to band together, I tend to believe XY gets some organized help with a directed purpose and goal.

What we get is an essentially dishonest exchange because what is represented is not what it actually is. If you think plucky little XY slaves all day by herself to come up with this stuff then I have a bridge I can sell you real cheap. Caveat emptor.

Mariss

Hi Mariss,
This cannot go unanswered, I have to address this.

Mariss: I would have liked to be known as neither liberal, moderate or conservative. Rather, I would have preferred to keep my views private about those matters. That worked OK until the fulminating and vituperative XY burst upon the scene spewing political invective. It was XY who pointed out the error of my stance; nature abhors a vacuum so something always fills it and if you stay silent it implies you agree.

Me: If you'll think back, that is quite correct, you hid your conservatism very well, so well that I was dumbfounded when I discovered that you were a conservative. Fulminating and vituperative? You forgot that you also called me an idiot. Would it surprise you that I would also agree with that characterization? I am a technological idiot. For instance, I would love to put those little emoticons in my dialog, but when I drag and drop, I end up with raw html, no emoticons. So perhaps the fulminating vituperativeness might not have been so bad if I could have made the little smiley faces work. For instance, I was surprised that you took me literally when I said that liberals relish separating the rich from their money. I was playing that for laughs, you actually believed it. Conservative paranoia I guess.

Mariss: The endless robotic repetition of "idiot-in-chief" and other thoughtful liberal insights regarding conservatives has a purpose. Repetition, left unanswered, brings familiarity and eventually acceptance of what is being repeated. It is a common propaganda technique. If no one challenges it, good people look around and think they are alone with their unvoiced reservations. They eventually think maybe they are the ones out of step so they get with the program.

Me: It may be that good people "look around and think they are alone" (insert little smiley face emoticon), but there aren't any good people on this discussion now are there? (insert another little smiley face emoticon) Look, what I actually mean is that there are no innocents here, everybody in this discussion is drop dead smart. IQ wise I'm probably the dumbest one here, as some of you have tried to point out. I'm holding a discussion with some really smart people, and that is what I like to do. That I'm holding my own is what I think you are a little unhappy about.

Mariss: It baffled me why XY has such a dogged determination with the GW-algae-sludge thing. How does someone find the time to come up with 3 or more "personally researched" articles a day? It is baffling until you see the tie-in with the political insult thing. It is a complete package, religion and dogma. Since zealots tend to band together, I tend to believe XY gets some organized help with a directed purpose and goal.

Me: Wrong! My friend John, remember, who I certified as a genius? He taught me how to do searches on the internet. I doesn't take long at all to find the articles, also I'm a speed reader, I go through them really fast. Secondly, I'm not spending a lot of time designing electronic circuits. I don't know how. No one is helping me, not even spouse. He says he's been very productive of late since ya'll have been baby sitting me. (insert yet another little smiley face emoticon)

Mariss: What we get is an essentially dishonest exchange because what is represented is not what it actually is. If you think plucky little XY slaves all day by herself to come up with this stuff then I have a bridge I can sell you real cheap. Caveat emptor.

Me: Don't anyone buy that bridge. The exchange is honest, it's just me, I promise. It doesn't take all day, far from it. I'm real good at research and amassing disparate facts into cohesive conclusions. I may not be all that smart, but some things I do really well.
Take care,
xyzdonna

One of Many

03-12-2008, 06:52 PM

Why would the ice caps on distant planets be receding??
Hmmmmmm....don't think it's SUVs, .....don't think it's coal plants.....don't think it's EvilBigOil......
....
Lemme think here for a minit....Oohhhh, Ooohhh...I know!!
It's something that Earth AND the other planets have in common!!

Naw....couldn't be the sun.

Would absolutely HAVE to be something that constitutes POINT ZERO THREE EIGHT PERCENT of our atmosphere, and only that portion that man contributes. Right?
---------------------------------------------------------------
Science isn't liberal. Science isn't conservative. Science isn't consensus either. Consensus is politics, consensus is religion.

No, if you ask me, the question was another fabricated intentional blonde moment or short term memory loss. Kind of like a reporter I heard recently asking a mother; "How long have you known your child anyways?" Anyone that has done the slightest amount of research on global warming contributors would have known the Mars evidence by now. It has been mentioned here and several other threads, possibly the IPCC reports, blogs and several news articles.

There is no excuse for ignoring fairly old news with extraneous and subjective facts on either side of the conundrum. Once gazed upon, they can be vetted and cross checked to see how much water it holds without too much effort.

Moreover, the particulars in the character of the writer and their bias must also be taken into account....what you read, whom it comes from and how you comprehend what they have to offer, should not always be taken for granted, but kept in mind as pieces to the puzzle. Throwing out the baby with the bath water, so to speak, may be the missing link to developing an informed conclusion.

What is puzzling is that there are many Biblical warnings on behaviors and the consequences that go with them, including the end to earth as we know it. These can be cast off as judgmental intrusive theological musings, but the strict moral code of fundamental environmentalisms must be followed lock step or doom will come. Not because they know, but because it's their faith in trustworthy prophets that says its so.

DC

martinw

03-12-2008, 08:01 PM

Of course you've quoted this rag before Martin and it obviously has a conservative bias. :>)

xyzdonna

Dear Donna,

For a nanosecond I did not spot the gentle wind-up. LOL. No offence taken hereabouts.

Actually, the Spectator can hardly be accused of bias. It is a magazine that publishes articles . It does not pretend to report the NEWS (whatever that may be!!!!). It just publishes the opinions of those who send in articles, and meet with the editor's approval. Yes , lots are faintly "right-wing", but by no means all. Any reader knows they are getting opinions, and not news. I think that "bias" is unfair. OK, I'm splitting hairs...

Beautiful writing, and a pleasure to read, even if one disagrees.

Best wishes,

Martin

xyzdonna

03-12-2008, 08:14 PM

Dear Donna,

For a nanosecond I did not spot the gentle wind-up. LOL. No offence taken hereabouts.

Actually, the Spectator can hardly be accused of bias. It is a magazine that publishes articles . It does not pretend to report the NEWS (whatever that may be!!!!). It just publishes the opinions of those who send in articles, and meet with the editor's approval. Yes , lots are faintly "right-wing", but by no means all. Any reader knows they are getting opinions, and not news. I think that "bias" is unfair. OK, I'm splitting hairs...

Beautiful writing, and a pleasure to read, even if one disagrees.

Best wishes,

Martin

Hi Martin,
Also, it is a pleasure to read your witticisms. I can't tell you how much I love the dry Brittish wit. So understated and to the point! Thanks for no offense taken, none intended. As always, I love your perspective.
Take care,
xyzdonna

jhowelb

03-12-2008, 08:20 PM

Dear Donna,

For a nanosecond I did not spot the gentle wind-up. LOL. No offence taken hereabouts.

Actually, the Spectator can hardly be accused of bias. It is a magazine that publishes articles . It does not pretend to report the NEWS (whatever that may be!!!!). It just publishes the opinions of those who send in articles, and meet with the editor's approval. Yes , lots are faintly "right-wing", but by no means all. Any reader knows they are getting opinions, and not news. I think that "bias" is unfair. OK, I'm splitting hairs...

Beautiful writing, and a pleasure to read, even if one disagrees.

Best wishes,

Martin

The Spectator was founded and run for many years by that sweet Mr Buckley that she is so FOND of!!

martinw

03-12-2008, 09:01 PM

The Spectator was founded and run for many years by that sweet Mr Buckley that she is so FOND of!!

Dear jhowelb,

Wires crossed here... You may well have a "rag" of the same name over on your side of the pond founded by Mr Buckley, but the one over here in the UK was founded in 1828 by Robert Stephen Rintoul.

Anyway, just to prove that I can be fallible also, here is what the UK rag said about its "bias". I just found it on their website...LOL

Guaranteed Biased Coverage
If you're looking for a balanced, objective view, you won't find it in The Spectator. The Magazine speaks from the heart to give voice to conviction and strong opinion. Our contributors - whether from the right or left - give you their views unfiltered and at cask strength. It's brilliant stuff, brilliantly written - but not to everyone's taste.

Best wishes,

Martin

jhowelb

03-12-2008, 09:39 PM

Dear jhowelb,

Wires crossed here... You may well have a "rag" of the same name over on your side of the pond founded by Mr Buckley, but the one over here in the UK was founded in 1828 by Robert Stephen Rintoul.

Anyway, just to prove that I can be fallible also, here is what the UK rag said about its "bias". I just found it on their website...LOL

Guaranteed Biased Coverage
If you're looking for a balanced, objective view, you won't find it in The Spectator. The Magazine speaks from the heart to give voice to conviction and strong opinion. Our contributors - whether from the right or left - give you their views unfiltered and at cask strength. It's brilliant stuff, brilliantly written - but not to everyone's taste.

Best wishes,

Martin

http://www.spectator.org/

http://www.spectator.co.uk/

HEHE!

Mariss Freimanis

03-12-2008, 10:00 PM

martinw

03-12-2008, 10:28 PM

dynosor

03-13-2008, 01:00 AM

Nice summary Mariss, but I exposed Donna a long time ago:

http://www.cnczone.com/forums/showpost.php?p=375401&postcount=252

OK, I looked up a little history. Since this thread is all about XY, I have listed all her posts from the first one (#82) until #314 when I got tired of the enterprise. Next to each post number is either "on topic" or the liberal thought nugget it contains. "Leftist political rant" means diffuse political rage.

#082 XY's very first post is on topic
#100 moron in chief, idiot, I'm a liberal
#104 think Hillery!
#107 Bush is a moron
..............................
............
....

jhowelb

03-13-2008, 04:46 AM

Dear jhowelb,

I never knew there was a US Spectator, but can I humbly suggest that it might just be a pale imitation of the original? No offence intended. Feel free to disagree.

Your version has wall to wall coverage of your elections. This seem to be a continuous source of acrimony, and on a rolling basis in all quarters.

Not wishing to attempt to re-write the US Constitution, why not limit the election to , say, a couple of months, rather than the protracted period that seems without end?

Everybody will be a lot happier. LOL.

Best wishes,
Martin

Please for give me if I'm a bit off key. I've caught something, or it's caught me. I'm running a temp of 102*. I won't be posting for a while, everything including my hair hurts!.

xyzdonna

03-13-2008, 06:25 AM

Please for give me if I'm a bit off key. I've caught something, or it's caught me. I'm running a temp of 102*. I won't be posting for a while, everything including my hair hurts!.

Hi jhowelb,
Get well soon and hurry back!
Take care,
xyzdonna

xyzdonna

03-13-2008, 06:47 AM

OK, I looked up a little history. Since this thread is all about XY, I have listed all her posts from the first one (#82) until #314 when I got tired of the enterprise. Next to each post number is either "on topic" or the liberal thought nugget it contains. "Leftist political rant" means diffuse political rage.

#082 XY's very first post is on topic
#100 moron in chief, idiot, I'm a liberal
#104 think Hillery!
#107 Bush is a moron
#108 Bush is a moron
#111, 114 on topic
#115 Christians are nonsensical
#121 radical right blah blah
#126 on topic
#134 leftist political rant
#135 leftist political rant
#155 leftist political rant
#158, 166, 170 on topic
#172 moronic Bush
#178 on topic
#179 idiot Bush

Here XY takes a breather drops politics and insults for 30 consecutive posts. This is the Golden Age for this thread.

#180, 185, 190, 197, 198, 206, 209, 212, 214, 215, 220, 221, 223, 226, 230,
#233, 237, 243, 244, 246, 250, 253, 262, 265, 268, 273, 278, 280, 286, 287 on topic

However, it picks up again.

#288 leftist political rant
#292 idiot in chief
#303 Bush is a clown
#306 imbecile in chief
#307 on topic
#309 stupid religious conservatives

#311 I ask XY to drop politics

#314 XY is shocked! I'm "one of them" conservatives!

What struck me was not a single person found it necessary to be politically or religiously insulting up to post #314 except for XY. Not a single person found it necessary to proclaim their politics or political opinions except XY. But then again, this thread is all about you XY, isn't it? You are the center of the universe.

Mariss

Hi Mariss,
I would hope this thread is not about me. I never intended that, I only came to learn, and learn I have. I became somewhat "fulminating and vituperative" in some of my posts due to my complete revulsion of this administration and what it's done to our country. If anthropogenic GW is happening then it is a political issue as well as a societal one and our politicians must do something about it if possible. Implicit in that previous sentence are two conditions "if", and "if possible". That is what I think this debate is about. The politics are an ancillary but necessary component of this. That I have very strong opinions politically should be obvious by now. That should not be the focus of the dialog however.
Take care,
xyzdonna

xyzdonna

03-13-2008, 06:56 AM

Dear jhowelb,

I never knew there was a US Spectator, but can I humbly suggest that it might just be a pale imitation of the original? No offence intended. Feel free to disagree.

Your version has wall to wall coverage of your elections. This seem to be a continuous source of acrimony, and on a rolling basis in all quarters.

Not wishing to attempt to re-write the US Constitution, why not limit the election to , say, a couple of months, rather than the protracted period that seems without end?

Everybody will be a lot happier. LOL.

Best wishes,
Martin

Hi Martin,
That would be a great idea! This election thing has become so protracted that it puts a real strain on the politician and the electorate. Two or three months would be such a relief. Of course you would never get the news organizations to go for it, think about the lost advertising revenue.
Take care,
xyzdonna

xyzdonna

03-13-2008, 08:09 AM

fizzissist

03-13-2008, 09:10 AM

Yup. You've missed some previous posts.

http://cnczone.com/forums/showthread.php?t=30714

One of Many

03-13-2008, 09:52 AM

One of Many,

<Snip>

What we get is an essentially dishonest exchange because what is represented is not what it actually is. If you think plucky little XY slaves all day by herself to come up with this stuff then I have a bridge I can sell you real cheap. Caveat emptor.

Mariss

Mariss

As I have stated my suspicions before. I think you can add who, and where to the represented dishonesty. I have never read so many knee jerk shallow assertions and conclusions based on the bifurcated personality prepositions of being dumber than everyone one here, but smarter and better qualified to label idiots, morons and imbeciles of an administration or those that voted for them. It makes absolutely no sense to play the well educated repertoire of lexicons in one instance, then turncoat into near elementary age naïveté, as an excuse for sticking to the GW/liberal predilection. The actual goal seems quite a bit more joy in being a nuisance than learning anything useful.

DC

xyzdonna

03-13-2008, 11:03 AM

Mariss

As I have stated my suspicions before. I think you can add who, and where to the represented dishonesty. I have never read so many knee jerk shallow assertions and conclusions based on the bifurcated personality prepositions of being dumber than everyone one here, but smarter and better qualified to label idiots, morons and imbeciles of an administration or those that voted for them. It makes absolutely no sense to play the well educated repertoire of lexicons in one instance, then turncoat into near elementary age naïveté, as an excuse for sticking to the GW/liberal predilection. The actual goal seems quite a bit more joy in being a nuisance than learning anything useful.

DC

Hi One of Many,
It might interest you to know that I've almost come full circle. I've just about decided that anthropogenic GW isn't valid, not completely, but almost. I'm still waiting for Geof's last word in this regard. On the incompetence of this administration I'm more sure than ever. That will never be in doubt.
Take care,
xyzdonna

fizzissist

03-13-2008, 11:09 AM

Well Geof, the world hinges on you now!

CNC_Programmer

03-13-2008, 12:23 PM

Hi One of Many,
It might interest you to know that I've almost come full circle. I've just about decided that anthropogenic GW isn't valid, not completely, but almost. I'm still waiting for Geof's last word in this regard. On the incompetence of this administration I'm more sure than ever. That will never be in doubt.Take care,
xyzdonna

Oh, I dunno. I think Jeb should have run for president. :idea: He would have won in a landslide!!!!!:argue: Well, maybe not quite in a landslide!:cheers:

fizzissist

03-13-2008, 01:27 PM

Please for give me if I'm a bit off key. I've caught something, or it's caught me. I'm running a temp of 102*. I won't be posting for a while, everything including my hair hurts!.

Not to make light of running a temp, but it is cooler in the upper troposphere, which is completely opposite what the GCMs predict. One preeminent climate study agency is the Hadley Center in the U.K. Their climate model is just one that predicts this, yet....well, just read what Lindzen has to say...based on their data..
--------------------------------------------

Climate models forecast increasing temperatures on earth because of increasing levels of atmospheric CO2, but observational data appears to contradict this claim.

Subsequent to publishing the feature ”The Fluid Envelope - A Case Against Climate Alarm“ by Dr. Richard Lindzen, we received an email from a science journalist questioning one of the central assertions in Lindzen’s report. The writer wanted to know on what basis Dr. Lindzen was claiming there has been no significant warming in the last 10+ years. In response, Lindzen emailed the following table, showing temperature trends for the last 27 years. This data is based on global (including over the ocean) average temperature readings per year, per altitude, as reported by the U.K.’s Hadley Climatic Research Unit:

altitude (meters/feet) hPa Trend (C/decade)
24,000/79,000 30 -0.84
20,000/65,500 50 -0.76
16,000/52,500 100 -0.35
14,000/46,000 150 -0.12
12,000/40,000 200 -0.01
9,100/30,000 300 0.10
6,500/21,500 500 0.05
3,000/10,000 700 0.06
1,500/5000 850 0.08
zero (surface) 1,000 0.13 (from HadCRU3)

As the data indicates, over the past two decades, temperatures have actually declined in the upper troposphere, even though there has been some minor upward trends in temperature at sea level and lower altitudes. This completely contradicts conventional global warming models. As Dr. Lindzen explained in his follow up email:

“I used this data to show that the trend at 300 hPa was not about 2.5 x the surface trend which is what greenhouse warming [models] requires.” Apparently climate models that predict global warming ala increasing levels of atmospheric CO2 assume increasing temperature trends in the troposphere, where CO2 concentrates, and the reality is the troposphere is not getting hotter, it is getting cooler.

Before we radically rearrange the political economy of the world because some scientists claim anthropogenic CO2 is the cause of climate change, it might be worthwhile for anyone taking a position on the topic to consider whether or not this is indeed “well settled science.”

---------------------------------
Donna,
Since you seemed to have come late into the movie, let me catch you up on the plot...

Dick Lindzen is a climate scientist with MIT, a struggling upstart college in Mass. He was a lead author for the IPCC's TAR, but resigned when he objected to the way the IPCC was handling the information used for the report.

debogus

03-13-2008, 06:51 PM

"Since you seemed to have come late into the movie"
Shhhhhh!
Blah blah blah enlightened blah
Shhhhhh!
Don't ya just hate when that happens.

Geof

03-13-2008, 07:16 PM

Well Geof, the world hinges on you now!

What! Somebody actually wants my opinion? How flattering.

In many posts I have stated my opinion(s), here is a longer phrasing;

Global Warming is real, long term that is on the time frame of Milankovitch cycles, but at the moment it is possible there will be cooling on a much shorter time frame than those.

It is possible that human activity in releasing fossil CO2 has had some influence on the warming. It is impossible to determine how significant that influence had been if it exists at all.

Humans can do dick squat to change global warming or cooling, whether or not the world economy is destroyed by the nutty economic plans of the AGW morons.

And I find the question academic. For all the men reading do you know the meaning of the acronym PSA? You should.

One of Many

03-13-2008, 08:34 PM

And I find the question academic. For all the men reading do you know the meaning of the acronym PSA? You should.

If I may speculate on where you may be going with this;

Would this be in effect to relate minor elevated levels of PSA in the blood and the potential problem with very high false positives as an early indicator to prostate cancer. As analogus to minute portions of CO2 an early indicator of a potential problem with very high false positives...something we must live with and keep an eye on? False positives are better news, but false negatives are never good...

Not that you would, or that I can claim to read your mind, but it does seem you have a plan with the information once the question is answered! LOL!

Unless of course, you meant pressure sensitive adhesive, then disregard my above ramblings. :)

DC

fizzissist

03-13-2008, 08:53 PM

For all the men reading do you know the meaning of the acronym PSA? You should.

prostate specific antigen?? (I think "men" is the giveaway)

For all the non-men out there, re-read Geof's statement about AGW...it is dead on. There's a few variables that will sway the El Nino/Milankovich/MemorialDayRush/Whatever cycles that drive our general climate that we have yet to understand, but essentially, and for all practical purposes, .....What Geof said.

martinw

03-13-2008, 09:18 PM

Hi Martin,
Of course you would never get the news organizations to go for it, think about the lost advertising revenue.
Take care,
xyzdonna

Dear Donna,

A long time ago, in the folly of youth, I did some research into the energy consumption of the UK. At that time, statistics were available about the electricity demand from the State-owned supplier, the CEGB.

On one evening, at about eight at night, a very popular UK soap TV programme ended, and was followed by a UK election broadcast by one of the political parties.

At that precise time, the UK experienced the largest electrical power surge in history.

No, it had nothing to do with an interest in politics...everybody went off to make a nice cup of tea with their electric kettles, and came back refreshed a few minutes later after the politicians had gone from their screens. Electricity demand returned to usual, instantly.

Advertising revenue??? I suppose those idiots have to believe someone might be watching....

Best wishes,

Martin

ImanCarrot

03-14-2008, 05:35 AM

Phase Shift Analysis.

I'm a man and used to make Phase Shifting Interferometers. When they're used to measure flatness it's called Phase Shift Analysis.

CNC_Programmer

03-14-2008, 07:28 AM

John Coleman Sues! (http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,337710,00.html)

xyzdonna

03-14-2008, 08:32 AM

Not to make light of running a temp, but it is cooler in the upper troposphere, which is completely opposite what the GCMs predict. One preeminent climate study agency is the Hadley Center in the U.K. Their climate model is just one that predicts this, yet....well, just read what Lindzen has to say...based on their data..
--------------------------------------------

Climate models forecast increasing temperatures on earth because of increasing levels of atmospheric CO2, but observational data appears to contradict this claim.

Subsequent to publishing the feature ”The Fluid Envelope - A Case Against Climate Alarm“ by Dr. Richard Lindzen, we received an email from a science journalist questioning one of the central assertions in Lindzen’s report. The writer wanted to know on what basis Dr. Lindzen was claiming there has been no significant warming in the last 10+ years. In response, Lindzen emailed the following table, showing temperature trends for the last 27 years. This data is based on global (including over the ocean) average temperature readings per year, per altitude, as reported by the U.K.’s Hadley Climatic Research Unit:

altitude (meters/feet) hPa Trend (C/decade)
24,000/79,000 30 -0.84
20,000/65,500 50 -0.76
16,000/52,500 100 -0.35
14,000/46,000 150 -0.12
12,000/40,000 200 -0.01
9,100/30,000 300 0.10
6,500/21,500 500 0.05
3,000/10,000 700 0.06
1,500/5000 850 0.08
zero (surface) 1,000 0.13 (from HadCRU3)

As the data indicates, over the past two decades, temperatures have actually declined in the upper troposphere, even though there has been some minor upward trends in temperature at sea level and lower altitudes. This completely contradicts conventional global warming models. As Dr. Lindzen explained in his follow up email:

“I used this data to show that the trend at 300 hPa was not about 2.5 x the surface trend which is what greenhouse warming [models] requires.” Apparently climate models that predict global warming ala increasing levels of atmospheric CO2 assume increasing temperature trends in the troposphere, where CO2 concentrates, and the reality is the troposphere is not getting hotter, it is getting cooler.

Before we radically rearrange the political economy of the world because some scientists claim anthropogenic CO2 is the cause of climate change, it might be worthwhile for anyone taking a position on the topic to consider whether or not this is indeed “well settled science.”

---------------------------------
Donna,
Since you seemed to have come late into the movie, let me catch you up on the plot...

Dick Lindzen is a climate scientist with MIT, a struggling upstart college in Mass. He was a lead author for the IPCC's TAR, but resigned when he objected to the way the IPCC was handling the information used for the report.

Hi fizzissist,
OK, I'm convinced, you and Geof did it with some help from Mariss. It took a while but I'm finally ready to reject anthropogenic global warming. I'll admit the error of my ways and capitulate. I'm not married to that theory. I won't say that it's an academic plot though, I think there is honest disagreement out there.
But don't think for one precious moment that I've become a conservative though. I'm still a born again, dyed in the wool, free thinking, open minded liberal!
Take care,
xyzdonna

fizzissist

03-14-2008, 01:55 PM

But don't think for one precious moment that I've become a conservative though. I'm still a born again, dyed in the wool, free thinking, open minded liberal!
Take care,
xyzdonna

Free thinking and liberal??? You can't be a liberal and think for yourself. AlGore and Hillary have to do your thinking for you. Ya gotta follow the party line!!

jhowelb

03-14-2008, 02:56 PM

Guns and fists as "snow rage" erupts
Wed Mar 12, 2008 12:00pm EDT

By David Ljunggren

QUEBEC CITY, Quebec (Reuters) - Although Canada is one of the snowiest countries in the world, a series of violent "snow rage" incidents reveal that even the locals have their limits.

Police in the French-speaking province of Quebec said on Wednesday that people were fighting over snow clearing and even parking spaces.

Recent Canadian winters have been mild but this one looks set to break all-time records for snow. One storm last weekend dumped 23 inches on the capital Ottawa and 19 inches on Quebec City, which has already received 210 inches this year.

Quebec City police said they had been called to a dozen violent disputes about snow from one property ending up on someone else's. The drifts outside some houses are 12 feet and higher.

Last Sunday, a man in an upscale Quebec City neighborhood became so upset a woman from a snow removal service was putting snow on his yard that he shouted at her and then took a shovel and hit the window of the vehicle she was driving.

"The woman apologized and returned to work ... a bit later the man opened his garage door and emerged with a shotgun, pointed it at the ground and looked at her in a threatening way," said police spokeswoman Catherine Viel.

Police arrested the man, who will be charged with negligent use of a firearm, and seized a total of 13 weapons from his home. Viel said snow-related fights were unusually common.

"It's happened particularly often this year ... you have to be used to snow if you live in Quebec but it's been a bit extreme this year. People are fed up," she said.

In Montreal, police said a man had produced a toy gun during a heated dispute Sunday between two drivers over a rare parking space. He may face weapons charges.

There may be more trouble to come, since Environment Canada says there is no sign winter is about to end. Snow fell again on Quebec City and Ottawa Wednesday.

Montreal is also having problems disposing of the snow. One massive mound is around 80-feet high and officials told reporters that unless steps were taken to dismantle the pile, much of it would still be there when next winter started.

(Reporting by David Ljunggren, editing by Mario Di Simine)

dynosor

03-14-2008, 02:58 PM

free thinking, open minded liberal

When adding liberal to the mix, you get:

Free thinking = easily led

open minded = empty headed

xyzdonna

03-14-2008, 03:50 PM

Guns and fists as "snow rage" erupts
Wed Mar 12, 2008 12:00pm EDT

Hi jhowelb,
Hope you're feeling better, was it a bout with the flu?
Take care,
xyzdonna

fizzissist

03-14-2008, 05:08 PM

When adding liberal to the mix, you get:

Free thinking = easily led

open minded = empty headed
Actually, what irritates me as much as anything is the perception that because I don't classify myself as a liberal, I am therefore NOT free thinking.

That is the equivalent of calling me stupid.

....Forgot who said it (perhaps Geof or N7T will recall):
If you're not liberal when you're young, you have no heart.
If you're not conservative when you're old, you've got no brain.

Geof

03-14-2008, 07:25 PM

....Forgot who said it (perhaps Geof or N7T will recall):
If you're not liberal when you're young, you have no heart.
If you're not conservative when you're old, you've got no brain.

I Googled. :)

I vaguely recall this quotation, and was surprised to find it is attributed to Winston Churchill.

jhowelb

03-14-2008, 07:34 PM

Hi jhowelb,
Hope you're feeling better, was it a bout with the flu?
Take care,
xyzdonna

Still running high temp (100.6). With non lucid thoughts from temp and low O2 I don't trust my judgment on anything I might say. I hope I'm gaining on it but......

Mariss Freimanis

03-14-2008, 08:00 PM

I Googled. :)

I vaguely recall this quotation, and was surprised to find it is attributed to Winston Churchill.

I first read it in James Michener's 'Hawaii' towards the end of that thick book. I was in my early '20s. Funny what sticks and doesn't stick in your memory.

Mariss

Mariss Freimanis

03-14-2008, 08:08 PM

Actually, what irritates me as much as anything is the perception that because I don't classify myself as a liberal, I am therefore NOT free thinking.

That is the equivalent of calling me stupid.

[/I][/B]

Be skeptical of any self-describing definitions. They are usually crafted to put the describer in the best possible light.:-)

Mariss

martinw

03-14-2008, 08:30 PM

I Googled. :)

I vaguely recall this quotation, and was surprised to find it is attributed to Winston Churchill.

Dear Geof,

I trawled for it , but never found a solid source. Actually, I did find something by Winston Churchill containing well known quotes at the time of Dunkirk..

We shall not flag nor fail. We shall go on to the end. We shall fight in France and on the seas and oceans; we shall fight with growing confidence and growing strength in the air. We shall defend our island whatever the cost may be; we shall fight on beaches, landing grounds, in fields, in streets and on the hills. We shall never surrender and even if, which I do not for the moment believe, this island or a large part of it were subjugated and starving, then our empire beyond the seas, armed and guarded by the British Fleet, will carry on the struggle until in God's good time the New World with all its power and might, sets forth to the liberation and rescue of the Old.

That is impressive oratory, and the New World did come to the rescue.

It makes current politicians look like ants.

Best wishes,

Martin

One of Many

03-14-2008, 09:57 PM

Dear Geof,

I trawled for it , but never found a solid source. Actually, I did find something by Winston Churchill containing well known quotes at the time of Dunkirk..

We shall not flag nor fail. We shall go on to the end. We shall fight in France and on the seas and oceans; we shall fight with growing confidence and growing strength in the air. We shall defend our island whatever the cost may be; we shall fight on beaches, landing grounds, in fields, in streets and on the hills. We shall never surrender and even if, which I do not for the moment believe, this island or a large part of it were subjugated and starving, then our empire beyond the seas, armed and guarded by the British Fleet, will carry on the struggle until in God's good time the New World with all its power and might, sets forth to the liberation and rescue of the Old.

That is impressive oratory, and the New World did come to the rescue.

It makes current politicians look like ants.

Best wishes,

Martin

Specifically why a shorter term elections process makes for mail order bride nightmares! How much is enough time to look at them under a microscope in their parade to post? Or are they all dudds no matter what media image they float in the carnival duck shoot?

DC

martinw

03-14-2008, 10:22 PM

Or are they all dudds no matter what media image they float in the carnival duck shoot?

DC

Dear One of Many,

They most certainly are, without exception, on your side of the pond, and mine.
Complete bounders... and utter spivs..
Best wishes,
Martin

Mariss Freimanis

03-14-2008, 11:16 PM

But don't think for one precious moment that I've become a conservative though. I'm still a born again, dyed in the wool, free thinking, open minded liberal!
xyzdonna

XY, I take back all the bad things I've said to you and I'm sorry. They would have served a purpose if you were capable of understanding where you step over the line. You don't understand so it's cruel for me to continue in this vein. Here's what you don't understand and it follows with no sarcasm towards you:

1) What you don't understand: Everything in science is a theory. Even if it says "Ohm's Law" it's still a theory. I take 'Law' to mean a recipe rather than something that is jurisprudential. I think most people with a scientific grounding would agree.

There is a detachment and humility implicit in the word theory. Science is about describing existence using a coherent and logically self-consistent analogs. Analog means description, it does not pretend to know with certainty the thing being described. Humility in science is always embracing a better description of reality and allowing it to supersede a less complete one. Newton being superseded by Einstein is one example that comes to mind. Einstein's theory gracefully encompassed Newton's Laws while explaining observations Newton's couldn't explain.

What you don't understand: You are using the wrong tools in this venue. Your background and disposition makes you familiar with the tools of consensus, egalitarian input and voting, arriving at firm and irrevocable conclusions and then carrying out policy based on those conclusions. These tools work very well in your familiar context but they are useless when it comes to science.

Science has its own tools and it goes like this. A standing theory is acknowledged as accepted. It came from a theoretical physicist named Newton who cleared up a lot of confusion that had accrued. Engineering generates better, more accurate instruments and experimental physicists use them to take more exacting measurements. The experimental physicists generate measurements that become harder and harder to explain away using the current standard theory. Confusion, like entropy, begins to grow. Confidence in current standard theory begins to decay as evidence against it mounts. A single, individual theoretical physicist cuts through the Gordian Knot of confusion with a brilliant new Theory That Explains Everything.

No one believes it at first. It must be put through the test every new theory goes through. There are thousands of Newtonian physicists and only one Einsteinian physicist, Albert himself. All are out for blood and they hurl their very best objections at it. The experimental physicists are the first to fall; the Theory of Relativity fits their measured objections to Newtonian physics to a tee. The theoretical physicists succumb in turn because Einstein's math makes predictions that are borne out by experimental physicists. The victory is complete by 1930. The last serious holdout folds in 1940 when seeing the recent progress in experimental nuclear physics.

The Theory of Relativity is now the new standard theory. Engineering generates better, more accurate instruments and experimental physicists use them to take more exacting measurements. The experimental physicists generate measurements that become harder and harder to explain away using the current standard theory. History repeats but on every repetition our understanding grows. New theories don't supplant old ones, they encompass them.

This is why a person with a non-scientific background can sometimes seem so comical. They use the tools they are familiar with and trot out "The Parade of 10,000 Scientists" as if that matters. Or they say "GW is an established fact. It must not be questioned!" It is utterly silly and I feel embarrassment for the person saying it.

Science is for people who are sanguine with uncertainty and science is not egalitarian; one individual with a brilliant new idea can blow away a marching band of 10,000 scientists, tubas and all.

2) What you don't understand: Science is not a handmaiden of politics and science and politics doesn't mix. Politics is the rotten apple that infects the rest of the apples in a barrel and we all are the worse for it. Science should never be funded by government because with funding comes strings and with funding comes pretenders that claim to be scientists. We are replete with "scientists" of questionable credentials.

Science should always be independent of government so as to keep its intellectual freedom. As a liberal, you may decry a scientist that is in the pay of or is in part supported by an oil company. I share your qualms. I hope you share my discomfort if another scientist works for the Environmental Protection Agency or for any of the other myriads of government for that matter. Further, share that same skepticism should he work for the Sierra Club, Move On, Committee of Concerned Scientists or any other politically oriented organization.

Scientists are human and need money and security just like you and I. If the money comes from government, political organizations or industry, strings are attached. When the strings are gently pulled, you give the results expected or the strings are cut and you are on your own again. Maybe a little cynical here but I trust industry first, government second and politically oriented organizations last.

3) What you don't understand: You see life as a complete, compact whole. Everything is integrated, your political beliefs, what you are as person, what your aspirations in life are. It works and it is good. My life I see as compartments; engineer, a person with philosophical framework, loving husband and father of two grown children I have never let down and who love me. It works and it is good.

I'm assuming you are a happy person. I am different than you but our individual lives work equally well. Yet I see a xenophobia in you that is less than accepting. By your nature you cannot come to terms with the idea people different than you see life from a different perspective but are just as fulfilled as you are. Your xenophobia was the reason you said "But don't think for one precious moment that I've become a conservative though. I'm still a born again, dyed in the wool, free thinking, open minded liberal!"

No need for that.

I'll make you a bargain. Don't drop the Bush Bomb again if you can at all help it. It just doesn't belong here at all. Never mention a political thought again and I won't either. In return I'll forgive and forget my opinion of you. It'll be hard for you but I know you can do it if you try. You say you like the smart people here; don't fart in their faces.:-)

Mariss

Mariss Freimanis

03-15-2008, 12:00 AM

Dear Geof,

I trawled for it , but never found a solid source. Actually, I did find something by Winston Churchill containing well known quotes
Best wishes,

Martin

Churchill was giant among ants. My personal favorite was allegedly addressed by Sir Winston to Lady Astor who objected to the amount of brandy Sir Winston had imbibed during a dinner party. Sir Winston said "I may be drunk tonight but tomorrow I shall be sober. You tomorrow, madam, will still be ugly." Or something like that.

Mariss

Geof

03-15-2008, 01:56 AM

Dear Geof,

I trawled for it , but never found a solid source. Actually, I did find something by Winston Churchill containing well known quotes at the time of Dunkirk......Martin

Yes I was rushing when I posted the other comment, a deeper search refutes any atribbutions. But I also found a Churchill quotet that I like:

: However, there is a verifiable Churchill quotation that may be relevant to today's political situation. In 1943 (at the height of World War II, when England's very survival was at stake), he wrote: "The power of the executive to cast a man in prison without formulating any charge known to the law and particularly to deny him the judgment of his peers is in the highest degree odious and is the foundation of all totalitarian government...."

dynosor

03-15-2008, 02:06 AM

Sir Winston said "I may be drunk tonight but tomorrow I shall be sober. You tomorrow, madam, will still be ugly."

The story continues with Lady Astor recoiling in horror at Churchill's remark and countering with:

"Sir, if I was your wife, I'd poison your tea!". To which Churchill replied: "Madam, if I were your husband, I'd drink it."

airforce1

03-15-2008, 02:20 AM

i have a popular science magazine from 1956, and that also explains the coming ice age.

i grew up in the 90's when global warming and as well as a depleting ozone layer were forced down our throats. children were tought this garbage by the "learned" adults and teachers as fact and made to feel guilty for there parents crimes against the earth.

xyzdonna

03-15-2008, 06:08 AM

When adding liberal to the mix, you get:

Free thinking = easily led

open minded = empty headed

Now dynosor,
That's humorous but hardly accurate. A for instance, Mariss once said to me that I shouldn't expect anyone to change their mind. Each person had probably put a lot of thought into their position, and, essentially their mind was made up. I'm paraphrasing here, don't want to go back and look up the quote. Essentially he was saying that everyone was close minded.
Well, so far I'm the only one on this thread who has actually changed her mind. So wouldn't that make me the only open minded person on the list? As to free thinking, that's an amorphous term. By it I mean I'm creative, clever, clandestine and cacophonious. LOL. I'm not very smart with the technology however. Were it not for spouse I'd have the blinking VCR clock all the time.
But this thread should not be about me. It should be about my conversion from liberal GW activist to liberal disbeliever in GW. LOL. (inset smiley faced emotocon) No, ya'll have prevailed. I'm a convert from GW activism. Now could anyone put me on the right track as to what the next cause should be? It is essential to have a purpose and a mission. (inset another smiley faced emotocon)
Take care,
xyzdonna

jhowelb

03-15-2008, 06:14 AM

"I contend that for a nation to try to tax itself into prosperity is like a man standing in a bucket and trying to lift himself up by the handle." -Winston Churchill

"The inherent vice of capitalism is the unequal sharing of the blessings. The inherent blessing of socialism is the equal sharing of misery." -Winston Churchill

fizzissist

03-15-2008, 12:15 PM

No, ya'll have prevailed. I'm a convert from GW activism. Now could anyone put me on the right track as to what the next cause should be? It is essential to have a purpose and a mission. (inset another smiley faced emotocon)
Take care,
xyzdonna

I don't honestly think anyone here has ever been trying to "convert", rather, we'd like to educate. Intelligent discourse will cause the truth to come out of solution, float to the surface, and become clearly visible.

There is seldom a cause without a selfish purpose. Strong political agendas are, regardless of which side of the isle the proponent, designed to benefit some group's pockets.

In the case of AGW, Al Gore is our current Chicken Little, and makes $6,000/minute for telling us the sky is falling. He's obviously quite convincing, but that doesn't make what he says true. He's warped the truth with such craft as to win himself awards and gain international stature, but all the while building an empire based on deceit.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying that republicans are innocent, but the focus here is climate science, and Gore has taken on that "cause". We need to understand and be aware of the forces at work he and his associates are engineering, forces that are going to cost you AND me more money to simply exist. The difference in what you are paying and what you will be paying is going to their coffers.

You want a cause? You want to be a caring liberal? Ok, fair enough, noble enough. Here's a cause worthy of anyone's efforts. Unmask a thief within the ranks of proclaimed liberals.

Someone is proclaiming themselves to be working hard to "save the planet" and society in the process from EvilBigOil and EvilBigIndustry. They've set up a company that supposedly helps stop global warming by investing in "green" businesses. That someone "offsets" their "carbon footprint" by "fining" themselves for polluting by purchasing "carbon credits".

The company that receives these fines is Generation Investment Management (GIM).

Here's your homework:
1) Look up who the principles are in GIM.
2) Find out what companies comprise its portfolio.
3) Find out where GIM is based and find out why it's based there.

4) Then, share with us whether you think investing in GIM would be a good idea or not, from a financial perspective.

5) One of the principles started a cable TV company that is set do an IPO and is projected to bring in millions of dollars for its founders. Initial start up funding came, at least in part, from the California Public Employees Retirement System. The company has lost money, yet the principles have received $1/2Mil salaries since its inception.
Who are those principles?

6) Finally, explain briefly why you do or do not consider this person to be a true liberal, as opposed to a true conservative when it comes to the bottom line.

--------------------------------------------------------
Next week: Chapter 2 "Who is the head of the IPCC?"

xyzdonna

03-15-2008, 01:01 PM

Actually, what irritates me as much as anything is the perception that because I don't classify myself as a liberal, I am therefore NOT free thinking.

That is the equivalent of calling me stupid.

Hi fizzissist,
I did not call you or anybody else on this forum stupid. I don't see how you could have derived that from my post. Free thinking is a rather amorphous term that's hard to define. I can't tell you what it means.
Take care,
xyzdonna

xyzdonna

03-15-2008, 01:42 PM

Quote Mariss:XY, I take back all the bad things I've said to you and I'm sorry. They would have served a purpose if you were capable of understanding where you step over the line. You don't understand so it's cruel for me to continue in this vein. Here's what you don't understand and it follows with no sarcasm towards you:

1) What you don't understand: Everything in science is a theory. Even if it says "Ohm's Law" it's still a theory. I take 'Law' to mean a recipe rather than something that is jurisprudential. I think most people with a scientific grounding would agree.

Me: I can understand that in science everything is theoretical.

Quote Mariss: What you don't understand: You are using the wrong tools in this venue. Your background and disposition makes you familiar with the tools of consensus, egalitarian input and voting, arriving at firm and irrevocable conclusions and then carrying out policy based on those conclusions. These tools work very well in your familiar context but they are useless when it comes to science.

Me: I guess you're right, I don't understand this. I don't know what "egalitarian input and voting" are or what tools you are referring to.

Quote Mariss:I'm assuming you are a happy person. I am different than you but our individual lives work equally well. Yet I see a xenophobia in you that is less than accepting. By your nature you cannot come to terms with the idea people different than you see life from a different perspective but are just as fulfilled as you are. Your xenophobia was the reason you said "But don't think for one precious moment that I've become a conservative though. I'm still a born again, dyed in the wool, free thinking, open minded liberal!"

No need for that.

Me: I've backed off of the political diatribe. Yes, I'm a happy person and I'm glad you are. Xenophobic? Where did you get the idea that I was fearful or suspicious of people having a different perspective? I debate and argue ideas and sometimes lose, as I did here. But having lost, I admit the error of my ways and say that I've lost. You have beaten me. I capitulate. I think now that I was wrong about anthropogenic GW. I just didn't want anyone to think that I had been transformed into a conservative.

Quote Mariss: I'll make you a bargain. Don't drop the Bush Bomb again if you can at all help it. It just doesn't belong here at all. Never mention a political thought again and I won't either. In return I'll forgive and forget my opinion of you. It'll be hard for you but I know you can do it if you try. You say you like the smart people here; don't fart in their faces.:-)

Me: I don't think I've mentioned Bush in quite a while now. Ah but there's the rub, "if I can at all help it". I'll try, it won't be easy. But then it won't be easy for you to forgive and forget either I suppose.
:devious:
Take care,
xyzdonna

fizzissist

03-15-2008, 03:37 PM

1) What you don't understand: Everything in science is a theory. Even if it says "Ohm's Law" it's still a theory. I take 'Law' to mean a recipe rather than something that is jurisprudential. I think most people with a scientific grounding would agree.

Me: I can understand that in science everything is theoretical.
xyzdonna

There are 2 basic fields in science:
1.Theoretical science is where you come up with an idea and work out on paper (or in your head) why it should work or why it should be true.

2. Empirical science is that which is found to be true by observation or experimentation and where, by experimentation the results are repeatable.

All of the claims for AGW causing the extinction of man and the decimation of earth are based on theory. The simple proof of that is the claims being made are based on computer models PROJECTING what will happen....IF. The models so far have been unable to replicate what is known to have occurred in our climate, yet we are expected to believe that their output can be trusted to confidently predict what is to come. Projection is theory.

On the other hand, what has been observed and is being observed shows hard evidence that the models are flawed. That's empirical science.

In the field of science, it is the job of an empirical scientist to prove wrong the theorist.

For example, the scientists who proved that the earth was round proved wrong the theorists who believed it was flat. Today we're seeing the theorists that say increased levels of CO2 will result in higher temperatures (ala computer models) in the troposphere are unable to explain why the temperatures are actually decreasing.

Roy Spencer offers an excellent page on global warming, btw.

http://www.weatherquestions.com/Roy-Spencer-on-global-warming.htm

Geof

03-15-2008, 04:14 PM

..... What you don't understand: Everything in science is a theory. Even if it says "Ohm's Law" it's still a theory. I take 'Law' to mean a recipe rather than something that is jurisprudential. I think most people with a scientific grounding would agree....,
xyzdonna

No, you do n ot understand. A scientific 'Law' like Ohm's Law is something that has been tested innumerable times and has been found to be true every time. All that Ohm's Law states is that if a potential difference of a certain magnitude in Volts is appled to the ends of a conductor with a certain magnitude of resistance in ohms, then the resulting current that flows will be dictated by Ohm's Law. No ifs, buts, or maybes; it works. If it did not you would never know if the next electrical device you turned on would simply not work or would explode in a blinding flash.

I find it a bit sad that you insist on being so obtuse; you are not harming us, but only yourself. Consistently denying the truth of physical reality, and substituting your definiton or interpretation of reality does not alter the reality to fit your world view.

Mariss Freimanis

03-15-2008, 04:33 PM

Newton's Law v = ma was also tested innumerable times and was found to be true every time. True until the late 19th century that is.

Mariss

dynosor

03-15-2008, 04:44 PM

Well, so far I'm the only one on this thread who has actually changed her mind.

OK Donna, I concede the point.

jhowelb

03-15-2008, 07:50 PM

I think I may soon join the living (kind of) however it is still a three day trek to the kitchen and back requiring rest stops at the many oasis's along the way.

Among others the effects of oxygen deprivation include hallucinations, raptures of the deep and some of the wildest nightmares on the order of Alice in wonderland.

I may have "dreamed" the solution for a project I've wanted to build for a while which involves using an old power saw table as the foundation for a three axis cnc.

Among the wildest was when the rabbit jumped from a hole in a cloud, floated to the ground using a little bamboo parasol such as is found in some adult beverages. The rabbit and a tomcat went dancing off down the yellow brick road at which time the cow what jumped the moon recited this unlikely tale.

Hi fizzissist,
OK, I'm convinced, you and Geof did it with some help from Mariss. It took
a while but I'm finally ready to reject anthropogenic global warming. I'll
admit the error of my ways and capitulate. I'm not married to that theory. I
won't say that it's an academic plot though, I think there is honest
disagreement out there.
But don't think for one precious moment that I've become a conservative
though. I'm still a born again, dyed in the wool, free thinking, open minded
liberal!

Well, so far I'm the only one on this thread who has actually changed
her mind. So wouldn't that make me the only open minded person on the
list? As to free thinking, that's an amorphous term. By it I mean I'm
creative, clever, clandestine and cacophonious. LOL. I'm not very smart
with the technology however. Were it not for spouse I'd have the blinking
VCR clock all the time.
But this thread should not be about me. It should be about my
conversion from liberal GW activist to liberal disbeliever in GW. LOL. (inset
smiley faced emotocon) No, ya'll have prevailed. I'm a convert from GW
activism. Now could anyone put me on the right track as to what the next
cause should be? It is essential to have a purpose and a mission.
(inset another smiley faced emotocon)

Dear God in Heaven, is there no limit to which the mind can be twisted? When I get this sorted out I shall return to see whether it me or all of you who have gone MAD!

dynosor

03-15-2008, 08:51 PM

Newton's Law v = ma was also tested innumerable times and was found to be true every time. True until the late 19th century that is.

Mariss

You meant
F = m.a
right?

jhowelb

03-15-2008, 09:02 PM

Some of it was not a hallucination. I caught the rabbit, photo attached!

Mariss Freimanis

03-16-2008, 02:22 AM

dynosor,

Ah.. yeah. It's embarrassing to write something without thinking. What trips me up are the really simple things. It should have been v = at.

Mariss

xyzdonna

03-16-2008, 07:32 AM

Hi fizzissist,
1) Look up who the principles are in GIM.

Quote: Three years ago, former US Vice President Al Gore joined with David Blood, the former head of Goldman Sachs Asset Management, to form an investment-management firm dedicated to investing for sustainability—that is, assessing the way social, economic, environmental, and ethical factors affect the strategy and valuation of businesses.

* Hon. Al Gore is Chairman;
* David Blood, the former CEO of Goldman Sachs Asset Management, is Managing Partner;
* Mark Ferguson, previously co-Head of Pan-European Research at Goldman Sachs Asset Management and a Global Equities Portfolio Manager, is Chief Investment Officer;
* Peter Harris, previously head of International Operations for Goldman Sachs Asset Management, is Chief Operating Officer;
* Peter S. Knight, formerly Managing Director Met West Financial, lawyer, Chief of Staff for Senator Al Gore (D-TN) from 1977-1989, and Campaign Manager for President Clinton's successful re-election in 1996, is President of Generation U.S.; and
* Colin le Duc, previously Director of Research for SAM Sustainable Asset Management in Zurich and strategy consultant for Arthur D. Little in London, is Head of Research.

From another source: L. John Doerr and Miguel Nogales are also principles.

2) Find out what companies comprise its portfolio.
Quote from: http://newsbusters.org/node/11149
Here's a list indicating what it takes to make money along with Al. Funds associated with these companies have placed millions of dollars under Al Gore's control. And, as you'll see below, Gore's selection for the US President of GIM might raise a few eyebrows as well.

AFLAC INC - AQUANTIVE INC - AUTODESK INC - BECTON DICKINSON & CO BLACKBAUD INC - GENERAL ELECTRIC CO - GREENHILL & CO INC - JOHNSON CTLS INC - LABORATORY CORP AMER HLDGS - METABOLIX INC - NORTHERN TR CORP - NUVEEN INVTS INC -STAPLES INC - SYSCO CORP - TECHNE CORP - UBS AG - VCA ANTECH INC - WATERS CORP - WHOLE FOODS MKT INC

Me: I'm not sure if these companies comprise GIM's portfolio or simply invest with GIM. I couldn't get a prospectus from GIM's website.

3) Find out where GIM is based and find out why it's based there.

Established in April 2004; Independent, private, owner-managed partnership; Offices in London, and Washington, D.C.; Plans for Melbourne in 2008

Me: Apparently it's based in London, can't find out why.

4) Then, share with us whether you think investing in GIM would be a good idea or not, from a financial perspective.

Me: I wouldn't invest in it myself. It's a loaded fund, (I can't determine how heavily loaded), I like low load funds. Secondly, if the GW hype is debunked, and I now think it will be, the shares will sink like a rock.

5) One of the principles started a cable TV company that is set do an IPO and is projected to bring in millions of dollars for its founders. Initial start up funding came, at least in part, from the California Public Employees Retirement System. The company has lost money, yet the principles have received $1/2Mil salaries since its inception.
Who are those principles?

Me: Can't find anything on the cable TV company.

6) Finally, explain briefly why you do or do not consider this person to be a true liberal, as opposed to a true conservative when it comes to the bottom line.

Me: If GW is a scam as most of the people on this forum suspect, that would make Al Gore a fraud. Fraudulence transcends conservative and liberal labels. It has been employed by representatives of both groups. Alternately he may just be misinformed.

Take care,
xyzdonna

fizzissist

03-16-2008, 11:51 AM

Donna,
I'm impressed!

..Note this from Gore..."Transparency, innovation, eco-efficiency, investing in the community, nurturing and motivating employees, managing long-term risks, and embracing long-term opportunities are integral parts of a company's enduring capability to create value," said Mr. Gore, who chairs Generation. "Business leaders who align their business strategy and technical development with sustainability and social accountability will deliver superior long-term results to shareholders."

Shareholders?? Dead giveaway, if you ask me. Little to do with social, much to do with profit. He isn't going to make any headway if he were to state "We're planning to strip mine every last ounce of coal from Pennsylvania southwest to the tip of Texas as quickly as we can and without spending a dime on remediation. The faster and cheaper we can achieve this goal the higher the returns for shareholders" All of the people he's aligned with are heavy hitters in the business world, people who make big money.

Let's look at Yucaipa for example.....

Pretty Liberal With The Cash
Ron Burkle puts his celeb Rolodex to work for a social agenda -- and CalPERS

What do rap music impresario Sean "Puff Daddy" Combs and former Vice-President Al Gore have in common? Los Angeles money manager Ronald W. Burkle backed each of them with cash from the California Public Employees' Retirement System.

http://www.businessweek.com/magazine/content/04_42/b3904098_mz020.htm

Btw,,,,didja notice Bill Clinton's name in the mix?? Ya suppose Hillary would just as soon keep these business relationships on the QT till she gets elected??

xyzdonna

03-16-2008, 12:46 PM

No, you do n ot understand. A scientific 'Law' like Ohm's Law is something that has been tested innumerable times and has been found to be true every time. All that Ohm's Law states is that if a potential difference of a certain magnitude in Volts is appled to the ends of a conductor with a certain magnitude of resistance in ohms, then the resulting current that flows will be dictated by Ohm's Law. No ifs, buts, or maybes; it works. If it did not you would never know if the next electrical device you turned on would simply not work or would explode in a blinding flash.

I find it a bit sad that you insist on being so obtuse; you are not harming us, but only yourself. Consistently denying the truth of physical reality, and substituting your definiton or interpretation of reality does not alter the reality to fit your world view.

Hi Geof,
I didn't say ohm's law was a theory, Mariss did. I think what he was trying to convey was that everything in science is theoretical. Nothing is considered absolute. It is all postulated to explain observed phenomenon. Then along comes another theory which expands on the previous. Like Newtons theories were amplified by Einstein.
I don't insist on being obtuse, obdurate perhaps (as in hard headed), but never obtuse.
:devious:
Take care,
xyzdonna

xyzdonna

03-16-2008, 08:19 PM

fizzissist

03-16-2008, 08:50 PM

Hi fizzissist,
Are you a real physicist?

No, I just play one on TV.

As for Dr. Al, the more we unlock the particulars of his theories, the more questions we unleash. Then, that's the fun of science, right?

Physics constitutes a logical system of thought which is in a state of evolution, whose basis (principles) cannot be distilled, as it were, from experience by an inductive method, but can only be arrived at by free invention. The justification (truth content) of the system rests in the verification of the derived propositions (a priori/logical truths) by sense experiences (a posteriori/empirical truths). ... Evolution is proceeding in the direction of increasing simplicity of the logical basis (principles). .. We must always be ready to change these notions - that is to say, the axiomatic basis of physics - in order to do justice to perceived facts in the most perfect way logically. (Albert Einstein, Physics and Reality, 1936):rainfro:

debogus

03-16-2008, 10:30 PM

fizzissist

03-16-2008, 11:25 PM

I thought a fizzissist ,was a person knowledgeable in carbonated beverages ?:confused:

CO2 is a green house gas ,which leads me to think that egore and the liberal greenies are going to make us drink flat CO2 free drinks.

Thats just evil.

Flat drinks?? Egad NO!!

Actually, the idea is to sequester CO2, and drinks are a great place to start. Carbonated milk, wine, shakes, ... and coffee!! Just imagine ALL your favorite drinks at Starbucks being carbonated!!

Speaking of beverages, carbonated or otherwise, I just had a drink Fri night called an After Burner. Got the recipe from the bartender, but it's kinda tough to read so I'm working up to it....Looking it up online results in a fairly wide variety of drinks nothing like what I had.

It consists of muddled cucumber, lime juice, cilantro, Tobasco, simple syrup (aka rock candy syrup), and Tanqueray. Double strained and served in a martini glass. Sounded so weird I just had to try it. Lemme tell ya, it's my favorite new drink!!!

Hadn't thought about using it to sequester CO2, but hey! I'll do anything to save the planet!!

debogus

03-16-2008, 11:39 PM

OK
So how much CO2 is released in a average belch?
Hey one crappy computor model and were screwed
(enlightened my ass) those libs will believe anything , mostly just proves my theory of "empty heads echo".
Perhaps I can get a grant and save the world ?

xyzdonna

03-17-2008, 06:39 AM

No, I just play one on TV.

As for Dr. Al, the more we unlock the particulars of his theories, the more questions we unleash. Then, that's the fun of science, right?

Physics constitutes a logical system of thought which is in a state of evolution, whose basis (principles) cannot be distilled, as it were, from experience by an inductive method, but can only be arrived at by free invention. The justification (truth content) of the system rests in the verification of the derived propositions (a priori/logical truths) by sense experiences (a posteriori/empirical truths). ... Evolution is proceeding in the direction of increasing simplicity of the logical basis (principles). .. We must always be ready to change these notions - that is to say, the axiomatic basis of physics - in order to do justice to perceived facts in the most perfect way logically. (Albert Einstein, Physics and Reality, 1936):rainfro:

Hi fizzissist,
I like that quote from Einstein, never heard it before. Yep, shame about Gore, but I can't say much more, I'm muzzled politically. I think it will be of interest to see what happens next winter. One more cold winter and it'll be kind of funny to see what happens to the climate change proponents.
Take care,
xyzdonna

mongo46538

03-17-2008, 07:04 AM

Bovine Flatulence....

True, Global warming is not the largest thing manking has to worry about, right now I just hope we survive whats left of the Bush administration.

MIKE JEFFERS

03-17-2008, 07:31 AM

i'm gonna start buying up carbon .cos at this rate its gonna be rare
and in the future you'll have to pay more for it .:)

mongo46538

03-17-2008, 09:01 AM

fizzissist

03-17-2008, 10:56 AM

Sorry all your grant Money has been transferred to Iraq.

At least there's some real enemies in Iraq, in stark contrast to the imaginary enemies that Gore and his sycophants want us to do battle with.

CNC_Programmer

03-17-2008, 11:03 AM

At least there's some real enemies in Iraq, in stark contrast to the imaginary enemies that Gore and his sycophants want us to do battle with.

Not according to many of our liberal politicians!:rainfro:

fizzissist

03-17-2008, 11:05 AM

By the Associated Press
"The Arctic ocean is warming up, icebergs are growing scarcer and in some places the seals are finding the water too hot, according to a report to the Commerce Department yesterday from Consul Ifft, at Bergen, Norway.
Reports from fishermen, seal hunters and explorers, he declared, all point to a radical change in climate conditions and hitherto unheard-of temperatures in the Arctic zone. Exploration expeditions report that scarcely any ice has been met with as far north as 81 degrees 29 minutes. Soundings to a depth of 3,100 meters showed the gulf stream still very warm.
Great masses of ice have been replaced by moraines of earth and stones, the report continued, while at many points well known glaciers have entirely disappeared. Very few seals and no white fish are found in the eastern Arctic, while vast shoals of herring and smelts, which have never before ventured so far north, are being encountered in the old seal fishing grounds."

Whoa!! Scary!! Unprecedented!!!
Yeah, real scary. Real unprecedented. From November 2, 1922

CNC_Programmer

03-17-2008, 11:23 AM

RRRoamer

03-17-2008, 11:25 AM

CNC_Programmer

03-17-2008, 11:50 AM

I have a question! If, and I said "if", the global warming theory is debunked, will Al Gore need to return the Noble Prize????:confused:

Geof

03-17-2008, 12:00 PM

I have a question! If, and I said "if", the global warming theory is debunked, will Al Gore need to return the Noble Prize????:confused:

He is safe. It is no more possible to debunk it than it is to prove it correct. The only way to debunk a theory is to design an experiment to prove it wrong; such an experiment is impossible.

And that is part of the problem...no maybe the whole problem. Because it cannot be proved wrong the Anthropogenic Global Warming devotees say it must be correct.

fizzissist

03-17-2008, 12:04 PM

:) ......... I was always amazed at how many of the GW crowd could just totally ignore the sudden climate changes that occurred in the past and keep claiming the changes today were somehow unique and solely caused by us.

As stated by Richard Alley, notable AGW alarmist:
"Past climates changed abruptly, suggesting that abrupt changes in the future will also occur, according to a Penn State geoscientist. “When we look at records of the past, climate often changed abruptly rather than smoothly,” says Dr. Richard B. Alley, the Evan Pugh professor of geosciences at Penn State. “This is true wherever and whenever you look.” ... Alley, who is currently chairing the National Academy of Science Committee on Abrupt Climate Change: Science and Public Policy, told attendees Thursday (Dec. 13) at the fall meeting of the American Geophysical Association in San Francisco, that while studies of ice cores, sediments and other relics of the past indicate these abrupt changes, the models currently used by those predicting the future of climate change do not do a good job of simulating abrupt changes in the past ... In the long term, abrupt change appears to be the norm. Current models all tend to change smoothly and do not capture abruptness ... The Penn State geoscientist suggests that climate change includes a process of approaching and crossing a series of thresholds...With climate, the thresholds in the past have sometimes been reached in as few as 10 years ... Any reality may be very different from the predictions and we need to anticipate changes and surprises."

http://www.awitness.org/journal/rapid_climate_change.html

mongo46538

03-17-2008, 12:10 PM

Oh come on jhowelb,
Buckley would have done no less. I can imagine him showing up at a liberal friend's funeral. He would deliver a peerless eulogy and end up saying what I did, how his poor, misguided friend could be so wrong. Buckley was a genius, let's enjoy our memory of him.
Take care,
xyzdonna

""I think Mr. Bush faces a singular problem best defined, I think, as the absence of effective conservative ideology — with the result that he ended up being very extravagant in domestic spending, extremely tolerant of excesses by Congress," Buckley says. "And in respect of foreign policy, incapable of bringing together such forces as apparently were necessary to conclude the Iraq challenge."

Asked what President Bush's foreign policy legacy will be to his successor, Buckley says "There will be no legacy for Mr. Bush. I don't believe his successor would re-enunciate the words he used in his second inaugural address because they were too ambitious. So therefore I think his legacy is indecipherable""

http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2006/07/22/eveningnews/main1826838.shtml

dynosor

03-17-2008, 12:14 PM

I just had a drink Fri night called an After Burner. It consists of ...Tobasco.... and Tanqueray. it's my favorite new drink!!!

Have you figured out why it is called after burner yet?:)

mongo46538

03-17-2008, 12:21 PM

Just remember while we banter about the Conservative and Liberal smokescreen, real politicians are selling our country and future down the river, to Bankers, Oil men, and any other corporate jag-off putting money in thier back pockets. Don't fool yourselves they are all crooked. Some are simply more competent.:rainfro::rainfro::rainfro:

Am I in the wrong Forum? haha who cares...BACK TO WORK!

Geof

03-17-2008, 12:34 PM

..... we need to anticipate changes and surprises."

http://www.awitness.org/journal/rapid_climate_change.html

The quote is from the link not from fizzissist.

I would love to know how it is possible to anticipate a surprise. :) Time travel or something.

fizzissist

03-17-2008, 12:50 PM

Geof, I think Richard B. Alley has traveled in time...even if it is backwards..and you're correct, I never said we need to anticipate changes or surprises. I was thinking about my new favorite drink, which was a surprise I wasn't anticipating.

See? If I'd only listened to Richard.

("after burner" probably because the Tabasco sneaks up on you)

Mongo cracks me up. He says that some crooks are "more competent" than others....and we all know that Bush is incompetent, therefore he's suggesting we elect better quality crooks?

I'm inclined to think it's better to have the less competent, therefore more easily caught ones.

xyzdonna

03-17-2008, 05:51 PM

fizzissist

03-17-2008, 06:53 PM

Again, I never said I was a physicist... fide, bona, or otherwise.

But to your question re: Null physics....sounds too much like scientology to me.....

"Totality is the simultaneous product of infinite smallness and infinite largeness, exhibiting their combined dimensional content. Infinite smallness lies external to the dimensions of infinite largeness. It is the only way the two can coexist as equivalent paths to nonexistence. What
this means is that the space of our universe is the boundary surface of its own totality"

Now, it you're willing to accept the foregoing, I'd like to offer you the following:
4bd 3ba 3200sq ft mansion overlooking acres of beautiful landscaping. Late 2005 full remodel. Lovely New Orleans location. $41,000 Firm.

xyzdonna

03-17-2008, 08:41 PM

xyzdonna

03-17-2008, 09:09 PM

martinw

03-17-2008, 09:16 PM

By the Associated Press
"The Arctic ocean is warming up, icebergs are growing scarcer and in some places the seals are finding the water too hot, according to a report to the Commerce Department yesterday from Consul Ifft, at Bergen, Norway.
."

Whoa!! Scary!! Unprecedented!!!
Yeah, real scary. Real unprecedented. From November 2, 1922

Dear fizzissist,

Thank-you so much for that. I break into laughter on the way to work. No higher praise.

Best wishes,
Martin

jhowelb

03-17-2008, 09:18 PM

Hi jhowelb,
I hope you're feeling better. You are missed, nobody does as good a job of putting me down as you do. Get well soon, I miss your insults!
Take care,
xyzdonna
http://www.cnczone.com/forums/images/smilies/devious.gif
:devious:
PS: I've learned to use the little emoticons, aren't you proud of me!

Finally something familiar enough to give me hope that I haven't lost my mind.

Going to try again to take myself to the Doctor tomorrow. Last time the couldn't accommodate me with all this lung edema and still 102*temp. Should be folks right up your alley, National Health Services.

If they won't see me tomorrow I'll have my wife take me to the County hospital tomorrow night when she gets back form Sacramento.

That should be a good enough glimpse of personal misery to warm the heart of any liberal.

fizzissist

03-17-2008, 10:19 PM

............ Most headphones assume equal hearing loss in each ear. Ergo, no balance control. Could you recommend a pot that would work as a balance control for a pair of headphones?
Thanks,
xyzdonna

I'll check into a cheap (AND good) box you can plug the headphones into....till then, if you're into building your own, this might help with some of the technical issues.

http://sound.westhost.com/project01.htm#top

You're right, our hearing isn't equal, and hearing failure as we (me included) age not only isn't linear, it fails at a higher rate/octave as you get older in the higher frequencies. (yeah, I know that's grammatically redundant)

These guys have some good ideas for headphones along with some pretty simple circuitry...
http://www.headwize.com/faqs.htm#access

If you're considering hooking the headphones up directly to speaker outputs on an amp....don't. Here's some guys discussing why it's problematic....
http://www.hydrogenaudio.org/forums/index.php?showtopic=34973&st=25&p=310062&#entry310062

One solution might be to run a second TV audio feed into a dedicated amp/receiver where you can control the balance, and without loudspeakers, no one will care. He can crank it up and EQ it all he wants without driving the dog nuts.

xyzdonna

03-18-2008, 07:37 AM

Finally something familiar enough to give me hope that I haven't lost my mind.

Going to try again to take myself to the Doctor tomorrow. Last time the couldn't accommodate me with all this lung edema and still 102*temp. Should be folks right up your alley, National Health Services.

If they won't see me tomorrow I'll have my wife take me to the County hospital tomorrow night when she gets back form Sacramento.

That should be a good enough glimpse of personal misery to warm the heart of any liberal.

Hi jhowelb,
I am so sorry, must be the flu. Drink lots of liquids, chicken soup and bed rest. There is an ativirul drug "amantadine", for influenza A type flu virus. I've use it in the past with good results. I wish I had told you about it before, it's best used at the first signs of virus. Do get well soon, you are missed!
Take care,
xyzdonna
PS: You need a flu shot every year, with your being on oxygen!

xyzdonna

03-18-2008, 09:38 AM

I'll check into a cheap (AND good) box you can plug the headphones into....till then, if you're into building your own, this might help with some of the technical issues.

http://sound.westhost.com/project01.htm#top

You're right, our hearing isn't equal, and hearing failure as we (me included) age not only isn't linear, it fails at a higher rate/octave as you get older in the higher frequencies. (yeah, I know that's grammatically redundant)

These guys have some good ideas for headphones along with some pretty simple circuitry...
http://www.headwize.com/faqs.htm#access

If you're considering hooking the headphones up directly to speaker outputs on an amp....don't. Here's some guys discussing why it's problematic....
http://www.hydrogenaudio.org/forums/index.php?showtopic=34973&st=25&p=310062&#entry310062

One solution might be to run a second TV audio feed into a dedicated amp/receiver where you can control the balance, and without loudspeakers, no one will care. He can crank it up and EQ it all he wants without driving the dog nuts.

Thanks fizzissist,
Very helpful solutions. I'm researching them now.
I do appreciated your help,
Take care,
xyzdonna

jhowelb

03-18-2008, 11:36 AM

Quebec children get holiday as snow piles on roofs
Reuters - Tuesday, March 18

MONTREAL - Several dozen schools were expected to remain shut this week in the Canadian province of Quebec over fears their roofs may collapse under the weight of near record amounts of snow, officials said on Monday.

Administrators at Montreal's French-language school board said only 73 of the roughly 200 schools shut since Friday will reopen on Tuesday.

Some of the others may not open until after the four-day Easter weekend, which begins Friday.

"The objective, of course, is to open the maximum of schools but at the same time to proceed carefully because we want there to be zero risk," school board president Diane de Courcy told reporters.

All told, 90,000 students have been out of school in the Montreal area since Friday.

Primary and secondary schools and adult education centres will reopen only once their roofs have been cleared of snow and the buildings have been inspected for structural safety, de Courcy said.

Four people have been killed in the mainly French-speaking Canadian province of 7.6 million after roofs collapsed under the weight of accumulated snow, though none of the incidents involved schools.

In Shawinigan, about 150 kilometres northeast of Montreal, a 55-year-old man died on Saturday when the roof of his home collapsed.

Three women were killed in Morin Heights north of Montreal last Wednesday when part of a food warehouse roof caved in under the weight of snow.

To date, some 350 centimetres of snow has fallen in the Montreal area, approaching a record level of 383 centimetres set in 1971.

Despite periods of rain over the past few weeks, some school roofs have three meters of accumulated snow, school board officials said. About 300 workers were using shovels, scoops and even chainsaws to cut through the snow and ice.

There has been even more snowfall in Quebec's outlying areas. The Mont Orford ski hill about 120 kilometres to the east of Montreal has had 527 centimetres of snowfall since the beginning of the season.

fizzissist

03-18-2008, 12:35 PM

Quebec children get holiday as snow piles on roofs
Reuters - Tuesday, March 18

To date, some 350 centimetres of snow has fallen in the Montreal area, approaching a record level of 383 centimetres set in 1971.

hmmm....383cm in '71 (when we were entering into an ice age)....350cm in '08

Could this be well within the realm of natural variability???

Geof

03-18-2008, 12:41 PM

hmmm....383cm in '71 (when we were entering into an ice age)....350cm in '08

Could this be well within the realm of natural variability???

Of course! Anything Mother Nature does is within the range of natural variability....by definition.:)

Even if it is caused by human activity this holds true because we are children of nature. Unless you believe Erik von Daniken and think we are all space aliens.

jhowelb

03-18-2008, 02:30 PM

hmmm....383cm in '71 (when we were entering into an ice age)....350cm in '08

Could this be well within the realm of natural variability???

Absolutely, which leaves "control" meaning control of peoples FINANCES!

fizzissist

03-18-2008, 02:51 PM

Of course! Anything Mother Nature does is within the range of natural variability....by definition.:)

Even if it is caused by human activity this holds true because we are children of nature. Unless you believe Erik von Daniken and think we are all space aliens.

Or LRon H...Whose followers are mostly "spaced aliens".

Mariss Freimanis

03-18-2008, 03:12 PM

Hi Mariss,
Would you allow me to ask you an electronic question? Spouse is almost deaf and he has these headphones and they really help him hear the TV. Unfortunately there is no balance control. Most people lose hearing unequally in their ears. Most headphones assume equal hearing loss in each ear. Ergo, no balance control. Could you recommend a pot that would work as a balance control for a pair of headphones?
Thanks,
xyzdonna

xyzdonna,

I just now saw your question. The very simplest solution would require 1 trimpot, 1 stereo output jack socket and 1 stereo input jack.

Identify which channel (Left or Right) the better ear gets. Get a 100 Ohm trimpot, take the CCW end of the pot to that channel output, the CW end of the pot to GND and the pot wiper to that channel's output jack socket. The other channel (for the impaired ear) connects directly from the input to the output jack.

The idea is to attenuate the sound (turning the trimpot) going to the good ear so that its level matches the perceived level on the bad ear.

Because hearing loss isn't equal with frequency (most people still hear bass OK but have real trouble with treble), a graphic equalizer with an amplifier on the bad ear is probably a more satisfactory solution.

Mariss

debogus

03-18-2008, 08:19 PM

Xyz

Generally I believe its unequal due to
A. wind noise ,ear by open window while driving
B.Rifle report
c. I'm sure there has to be others I just know the first two

evil answer:devious:
has he been checked by a doctor ? :idea:
Or like us, perhaps ,he is ignoring you.:rolleyes:

And saying its uneven is to throw you off.:rainfro:
Dang I'd still be married if I thought about special headphones. :wee:

Sorry
had to
those darn voices
don't cha know.:argue:
They told me post or no sleep :stickpoke

Peace (group)
or pieces (flame2)

:bat:Dave:bat:

fizzissist

03-18-2008, 10:12 PM

I'm gonna sway from dreaming of setting up my hot-rodded Mac 60's, Paracas pre-amp, Empire 598 MkIII with Stanton 681EE, and doing some critical listening as a result of the audio bent this thread has taken....and post something ever so slightly on-topic from Michael Crichton I just found out about (compliments of an actual atmospheric physicist).

Historically, the claim of consensus has been the first refuge of scoundrels; it is a way to avoid debate by claiming that the matter is already settled. Whenever you hear the consensus of scientists agrees on something or other, reach for your wallet, because you're being had.
Let's be clear: the work of science has nothing whatever to do with consensus. Consensus is the business of politics. Science, on the contrary, requires only one investigator who happens to be right, which means that he or she has results that are verifiable by reference to the real world. In science consensus is irrelevant. What is relevant is reproducible results. The greatest scientists in history are great precisely because they broke with the consensus. There is no such thing as consensus science. If it's consensus, it isn't science. If it's science, it isn't consensus. Period.
--Michael Crichton

martinw

03-18-2008, 11:10 PM

Consensus is the business of politics.

Dear fizzissist,

Errrgh? Not in the last couple of hundred posts here...

Best wishes,

Martin

Geof

03-18-2008, 11:57 PM

If you scroll down the page you will find a list of "similar threads".

Here are two from the list:

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
How to change Tool change position(About MAZATROL T1 control)

In the

Mazak, Mitsubishi, Mazatrol

Forum

And

V4 coming up

In the

Steam Engines Forum.

Can anyone tell me how these are similar? Please?

xyzdonna

03-19-2008, 07:50 AM

xyzdonna,

I just now saw your question. The very simplest solution would require 1 trimpot, 1 stereo output jack socket and 1 stereo input jack.

Identify which channel (Left or Right) the better ear gets. Get a 100 Ohm trimpot, take the CCW end of the pot to that channel output, the CW end of the pot to GND and the pot wiper to that channel's output jack socket. The other channel (for the impaired ear) connects directly from the input to the output jack.

The idea is to attenuate the sound (turning the trimpot) going to the good ear so that its level matches the perceived level on the bad ear.

Because hearing loss isn't equal with frequency (most people still hear bass OK but have real trouble with treble), a graphic equalizer with an amplifier on the bad ear is probably a more satisfactory solution.

Mariss

Thanks Mariss,
I do appreciate your input. I'll try to get by the electrical parts house and pick up the 100 ohm trimpot today or tomorrow. I'll get one with an audio (logarithmic) taper. I just had no idea what the value should be. Mount the whole shmoo in a little box with jacks and I'm all set.
Take care,
xyzdonna

xyzdonna

03-19-2008, 12:13 PM

jhowelb

03-19-2008, 04:27 PM

Hi everybody,
I just caught GM's Vice Chairman Bob Lutz on TV talking about global warming. His contention was that since their Chevrolet Volt ran on battery power it didn't use fuel. Now surely he knows better than that. Whether or not it adds CO2 to the atmosphere depends on whether his power company burns coal, oil or natural gas. I suppose if the power company that supplied the power to charge the Volt were nuclear powered, then it wouldn't contribute any CO2 to the atmosphere.
He also contended that climatologists are divided over the CO2 GW effect. I think that is true. From what I see, quite a few scientists are questioning the link between CO2 and GW. He has a blog if anyone is interested. http://fastlane.gmblogs.com/archives/2005/01/saturn_product_1.html
Take care,
xyzdonna

Donna, finally words coming out of you that make sense! There is hope for you after all, I am impressed!
All but the nukes will produce co2.. Another co2 free (kinds of) is hydroelectric, you know, like all those dams the eco-nuts want to blow up in the North West?

I also have trouble with tv sound. When I can hear, everyone else has to move over two counties. The solution, if you can find it is simple. An fm transmitter and wireless earphones, as for ipod. Cheap, battery powered and mobile.

jhowelb

03-19-2008, 04:39 PM

http://www.collectionsetc.com/Item75044.aspx#

xyzdonna

03-19-2008, 06:39 PM

Donna, finally words coming out of you that make sense! There is hope for you after all, I am impressed!
All but the nukes will produce co2.. Another co2 free (kinds of) is hydroelectric, you know, like all those dams the eco-nuts want to blow up in the North West?

I also have trouble with tv sound. When I can hear, everyone else has to move over two counties. The solution, if you can find it is simple. An fm transmitter and wireless earphones, as for ipod. Cheap, battery powered and mobile.

Hi jhowelb,
Finally words coming out of you too jhowelb. For a while there we didn't hear anything at all from you. I've been worried about you, feeling any better? That flu bug is bad news, I hope you remember to get your flu shot next year.
I believe in dams. We have Chickamauga dam right here in Chattanooga that provides a lot of our power. We've had low cost electricity for decades here in the Chattanooga area. I don't see why the "eco-nuts" would be against dams, they are a solar powered renewable resource. The Chickamauga dam also protects us from the devastating floods that used to frequent the Tennessee valley. Get well soon jhowelb, and get plenty of bed rest. I hope you are getting better.
Take care,
xyzdonna
PS: Spouse tried 3 different wireless headphones. They averaged about a 3 day lifespan before they went kaput. We had to take them all back. Cordless phones last for a year or two. Why can't they make wireless headphones that last that long? What brand are you using? Thanks, xyzdonna

Geof

03-19-2008, 06:47 PM

....I don't see why the "eco-nuts" would be against dams, they are a solar powered renewable resource.....

It depends on your time frame, and on the river. Most dams will eventually silt up and be worthless both for power generation and flood control. Eventually, in this context, being anywhere from fifty to a couple of hundred years.

dynosor

03-19-2008, 06:52 PM

I don't see why the "eco-nuts" would be against dams, they are a solar powered renewable resource.

Hydro-electric turbines kill fish: http://eesc.oregonstate.edu/salmon/human/dams.html

I guess regular dams frustrate fish swimming up river. Do beavers and fish ever get along?

xyzdonna

03-19-2008, 06:53 PM

http://www.collectionsetc.com/Item75044.aspx#

Hi jhowelb,
Isn't that amazing, you answered my question two hours before I asked it! Look at the times on the post, two hours to the minute! You posted your answer to my queation at 5:39 and I asked the question at 7:39. No, wait, there's a 3 hour time difference between California and Chattanooga. You are sneaky jhowelb, you had an extra hour to answer my question due to the time differential.
I figured it out. Hmmm, I think I figured it out, but your post preceded mine. I'll have to think some more.
Take care and get well,
xyzdonna

fizzissist

03-19-2008, 07:00 PM

It depends on your time frame, and on the river. Most dams will eventually silt up and be worthless both for power generation and flood control. Eventually, in this context, being anywhere from fifty to a couple of hundred years.

Another problem with dams is they're an amazing methane generator...something the eco's don't ever address. Google'ing '3 Gorges Methane' uproots some interesting views.

xyzdonna

03-19-2008, 07:06 PM

It depends on your time frame, and on the river. Most dams will eventually silt up and be worthless both for power generation and flood control. Eventually, in this context, being anywhere from fifty to a couple of hundred years.

Hi Geof,
Well the Chickamauga Dam was completed in 1940. So it's going on 67 years now. I think the key is maintenance. The Tennessee Valley Authority (a US government agency) has been diligent in maintaining the dam. They recently overhauled the locks. Chickamauga dam is good for 128 Megawatts.
Here are some pix of the dam: http://www.janandpat.net/dams/tva/chickamauga.htm
Take care,
xyzdonna

Geof

03-19-2008, 07:26 PM

...I think the key is maintenance. The Tennessee Valley Authority (a US government agency) has been diligent in maintaining the dam....

Not really. The structure of the dam may be good for thousands of years, the problem is eventually it fills with silt so there is no room for water.

Have you read about the recent release from Glen Canyon into the Colorado in an effort to replenish sandbars in the canyon. All the sand and silt that used to get carried down the Colorado before the dam is now trapped behind the dam. If the sluice gates are opened wide a minuscule fraction gets flushed out with the flow. However, the stuff that is trapped will eventually fill the lake until it is no longer possible to run the level down prior to spring snow melt to provide a cushion for flood flow. It will also make it no longer possible to store water for later release for hydro power and irrigation.

This applies to practically all dams.

martinw

03-19-2008, 07:45 PM

Another problem with dams is they're an amazing methane generator...something the eco's don't ever address. Google'ing '3 Gorges Methane' uproots some interesting views.

Dear fizzissist,

I was at a very small school in England between the age of seven and thirteen. The swimming pool comprised a dammed section of a tiny river, with a concrete base and a sluice at both ends.

Every spring, the pool was by-passed, and thirty tiny boys were put into THE POND PARTY. We just heaved the mud from the last year's sedimentation into the by-pass to empty it. As you may imagine, we just loved it. Probably, today, the headmaster would be put in jail, on a raft of Safety legislation offences...

Yes, you are right about methane generation. Before the pond was drained, we would get a jam jar, hold it upright full of water below the pond surface, and jab a stick into the bottom of the pool to liberate the methane bubbles.

The jars were then lit with a satisfying pop with strictly forbidden matches.

I guess that it is not beyond the wit of modern technology to mount another POND PARTY....?

Best wishes,
Martin

fizzissist

03-19-2008, 07:48 PM

It is estimated that globally 1%/yr water storage capacity is lost to silting.

jhowelb

03-19-2008, 08:22 PM

Hi jhowelb,
Isn't that amazing, you answered my question two hours before I asked it! Look at the times on the post, two hours to the minute! You posted your answer to my queation at 5:39 and I asked the question at 7:39. No, wait, there's a 3 hour time difference between California and Chattanooga. You are sneaky jhowelb, you had an extra hour to answer my question due to the time differential.
I figured it out. Hmmm, I think I figured it out, but your post preceded mine. I'll have to think some more.
Take care and get well,
xyzdonna

Temp just jumped to 102* again. Posts may be limited in number.

fizzissist

03-19-2008, 10:21 PM

.......Before the pond was drained, we would get a jam jar, hold it upright full of water below the pond surface, and jab a stick into the bottom of the pool to liberate the methane bubbles.

The jars were then lit with a satisfying pop with strictly forbidden matches.

I guess that it is not beyond the wit of modern technology to mount another POND PARTY....?

1.3Billion Chinese, jam jars, and matches all at once in 3 Gorges will probably knock earth out of it's orbit.

martinw

03-19-2008, 10:49 PM

1.3Billion Chinese, jam jars, and matches all at once in 3 Gorges will probably knock earth out of it's orbit.

Dear fizzissist,

If thirty undernourished 7 to 13 year-olds could keep their pond in order on an annual basis, I am confident that the vast population of China can do the same. Besides, we only had shovels. They have more technology at their disposal than we had...

Best wishes,
Martin

xyzdonna

03-20-2008, 07:01 AM

Not really. The structure of the dam may be good for thousands of years, the problem is eventually it fills with silt so there is no room for water.

Have you read about the recent release from Glen Canyon into the Colorado in an effort to replenish sandbars in the canyon. All the sand and silt that used to get carried down the Colorado before the dam is now trapped behind the dam. If the sluice gates are opened wide a minuscule fraction gets flushed out with the flow. However, the stuff that is trapped will eventually fill the lake until it is no longer possible to run the level down prior to spring snow melt to provide a cushion for flood flow. It will also make it no longer possible to store water for later release for hydro power and irrigation.

This applies to practically all dams.

Hi Geof,
Again you've taught me something I didn't know. Remember when you taught me that CO2 was created when they made concrete? Well I'm learning thanks to you. But couldn't they just dredge the silt out? That would seem like the easy fix.
Take care,
xyzdonna

Geof

03-20-2008, 08:24 AM

..... But couldn't they just dredge the silt out? That would seem like the easy fix.
Take care,
xyzdonna

The quantities are mind boggling, it simply is not possible even with small dams. Also it would probably use as much energy as the dam is converting to electricity.

ImanCarrot

03-20-2008, 08:34 AM

Hmm.. why didn't they lay pipes parallell to the damn (on the water side) with high pressure air (punch holes in the pipe) to keep the silt agitated- it'd surely flow though the sluice gates if agitated and in suspension? Just a thought.

I know a guy who designs damns for all over the world. If I see him at the weekend I'll ask him why this wouldn't work... there has to be a reason otherwise it'd have been tried surely?

Geof

03-20-2008, 08:41 AM

Hmm.. why didn't they lay pipes parallell to the damn (on the water side) with high pressure air (punch holes in the pipe) to keep the silt agitated- it'd surely flow though the sluice gates if agitated and in suspension? Just a thought...

Exact opposite happens if you aerate the water with a bubbler. The bubbles make the water column less dense and the silt settles faster.

Actually I should say fine sand not silt, colloidial size particles stay in suspension but bigger ones do settle.

fizzissist

03-20-2008, 09:36 AM

The bubbles make the water column less dense and the silt settles faster.
Think fluidized bed. (they're really fun to play with!) I built one with 3 powerful vacuum motors and a large column of sand for a lab. One interesting facit was the level of sand when you filled it normally, then when you shut it down after fluidization the settled level would often be lower.

I wonder if you could allocate some nominal % of the dam's electrical output to a giant silt-removing Roomba?
(I just invented that, so don't you guys be gettin' any ideas!!)

martinw

03-20-2008, 01:27 PM

Another problem with dams is they're an amazing methane generator...something the eco's don't ever address. .

Dear fizzissist,

This methane thing puzzles me.

My understanding is that methane is produced when vegetable matter rots in anaerobic conditions. I can see that a project like the Three Gorges Dam will result in large areas of vegetable stuff being covered in water...hence the dam will become a net methane producer initially. I suppose that one could argue that it will continue to be a methane producer because there is a larger area of water into which trees and other plants might fall.

Now consider the area of all the lakes in Canada, or the area of water in the Amazon rainforest, the Russian taiga etc etc. There must be shed-loads of dead plants swilling thereabouts, all happily giving off clouds of gas, as they have done for millions of years.

Surely the methane contribution of a few large dams is absolutely miniscule in comparison?

Best wishes,

Martin

PS:Actually, does rotting vegetation in salt water produce methane?

fizzissist

03-20-2008, 01:53 PM

There were studies done back in the late '70s by Hanson, Harrits, Brock, and Fallon that focused on Canadian lakes and methane/methane oxidation.

They found that methane was very lake specific, depending on depth, temperatures, the nature of the water input, etc., etc. The more oxygenated the water, the less methane. On top of that, it was seasonal.

Geof

03-20-2008, 01:59 PM

.......
Surely the methane contribution of a few large dams is absolutely miniscule in comparison?

Best wishes,

Martin

PS:Actually, does rotting vegetation in salt water produce methane?

The Canadian and Russian stuff is cold so it is not decomposing as fast as it is being laid down. This is the source of the peat bogs and frozen tundra; which if they do warm up enough will start to decompose and release either methane or CO2 depending largely on whether they stay flooded.

The Amazon forests are different because they are warm. In these regions there is little accummulation of non-decayed vegetation in the type of conditions that cause anaerobic decomposition.

Yes rotting vegetation, phyto-plankton, in sea water does produce methane. This normally occurs in the deep ocean where it is anoxic and cold and it is believed to be the source of the methane hydrates in the ocean floor.

martinw

03-20-2008, 02:10 PM

[QUOTE=Geof;428078]The Amazon forests are different because they are warm. In these regions there is little accummulation of non-decayed vegetation in the type of conditions that cause anaerobic decomposition.

QUOTE]
Dear Geof,

I'm being slower than usual today. Are you saying that although rainforest conditions are warm, you do not get anaerobic conditions in which dead stuff can decay, and hence little methane production?

Best wishes,

Martin

One of Many

03-20-2008, 02:47 PM

Think fluidized bed. (they're really fun to play with!) I built one with 3 powerful vacuum motors and a large column of sand for a lab. One interesting facit was the level of sand when you filled it normally, then when you shut it down after fluidization the settled level would often be lower.

I wonder if you could allocate some nominal % of the dam's electrical output to a giant silt-removing Roomba?
(I just invented that, so don't you guys be gettin' any ideas!!)

The other larger problem explained to me, with silt laden water in dams has to do with errosion to the impeller and concrete duct around it. One dam I had a personal tour of inside the duct and seeing the huge stainless impeller itself setting on the floor to repair weld/fill cavitation pitting, was being rebuilt about every 3 years.

Now, if they could set up ventury systems much like they do in treasure hunting on the sea floor pumping sand and divert the silt around the dam, it could slow the build up, but not sure it is realistic to keep up with it. But, considering the reservoir where the water and silt enters should help it drop out before it enters very far. Heck, they still must keep up dredging out waterways from tides, so river dam silt may be another ongoing battle.

Add more suspended silt above the dam, and now you have an abrasive waterjet on some very expensive, if non-repairable components?

DC

Geof

03-20-2008, 03:33 PM

......Heck, they still must keep up dredging out waterways from tides, so river dam silt may be another ongoing battle.

Add more suspended silt above the dam, and now you have an abrasive waterjet on some very expensive, if non-repairable components?

DC

Second comment first: Yes, actually you want the silt to settle in order to use the water.

Regarding dredging sea shores in California I remember reading about beach front erosion in surfing magazines back in the 1960s. It took a while before the thick headed authorities in charge realised that the constant southern shore drift carried sand south and out into the channel; a natural event that had been going on for millenia. Unfortunately, the sand that should have been coming down the rivers to feed the coastal transport was now trapped behinds dams; hence the erosion.

Geof

03-20-2008, 04:08 PM

....I'm being slower than usual today. Are you saying that although rainforest conditions are warm, you do not get anaerobic conditions in which dead stuff can decay, and hence little methane production?...

As fizzi mentions it depends on water depth, temperature, seasonality, whatever., They are two very different ecosystems: The Amazon has much more animal life to assist with decomposition and keep the plant disturbed to permit oxygenation. In Northern regions the water doesn't flow very much, the Amazon has annual floods which go up tens of feet. The vegetation in the north is coniferous and on decay tends to create acid conditions which inhibit decomposition so partially decayed material builds up and lower levels become severely anaerobic.

The thing about the Amazon ecosystem is that it tightly circulates minerals and nutrients in living systems. There is very little 'soil' in the rainforest there; soil like the rich b lack stuff you get in a good garden. Dead plant material gets consumed by animals, insects and fungi with the excrement from the other two also forming fungi food. The fungi live in symbiotic relationships with the tree roots so the trees get their nutrients not from any soil but from the fungi. Beneath the plant litter on the forest floor it is more or less sterile subsoil.

This is why clearing the rainforest for farming or tree plantations is such a disaster, especially if fire is used; this puts a layer of ash rich in water soluble nutrients on this sub soil. Probably one good crop can be grown but when the rainy season comes the ash based nutrients leach away so the following year is abyssmal. And it is almost poinless fertilzing because there is practically no organic material present to hold the fertilizers and slowly release them.

The thing about the Amazon rainforests being the lungs of the planet and storing carbon is simply a bunch of crap. These forests comprise a very efficient carbon cycling system. The biomass does not accumulate everything cycles through.

xyzdonna

03-20-2008, 04:55 PM

Geof

03-20-2008, 05:31 PM

Say Geof,
Spouse and helper were mixing up a little concrete to fill in a washed out place at the foot of our driveway. I light bulb appeared over my head. I took one of the empty bags of Sakcrete and set fire to it. I told the boys to hold my beer, stand back and watch this. I put the burning bag into the mixer expecting it to be extinguished by all the CO2 formed by the production of concrete. Nope, bag burns just fine. Maybe I got low CO2 concrete, I heard something about it being produced with fly ash. Why didn't I get enough CO2 to put out the fire?
Take care,
xyzdonna

You have it the wrong way around...and it could be my fault because of sloppy phraseology.

Vast quantities of CO2 are released during the manufacture of the cement which is used to make the concrete.

Most of the CO2 released, around 90% I think, comes from the fuel that is used to heat the kiln in which the cement is calcined; the balance comes from the minerals that are used to make cement. The calcining is actually separating water molecules and CO2 molecules that form part of the minerals.

When the cement is mixed with sand, gravel and water to make concrete a reverse chemical reaction occurs in which the water in the mix combines with the cement to more or less regenrate the original minerals that were used to make the cement. This reaction causes the growth of crystal structures which intercalate with the sand and gravel locking everything together. Also during this curing reaction some CO2 gets taken up and recombined into the crystals. CO2 uptake continues for decades but it is negligible.

dynosor

03-20-2008, 05:32 PM

Why didn't I get enough CO2 to put out the fire?

Cement releases CO2 as it sets. Close off the inlet to you mixer to stop fresh air entering and let the concrete set inside. Check for fire the next morning....:)

xyzdonna

03-20-2008, 05:50 PM

Cement releases CO2 as it sets. Close off the inlet to you mixer to stop fresh air entering and let the concrete set inside. Check for fire the next morning....:)

Hi dynosor,
You ever tried to get set up concrete out of a mixer?
Take care,
xyzdonna

martinw

03-20-2008, 06:47 PM

Hi dynosor,
You ever tried to get set up concrete out of a mixer?
Take care,
xyzdonna

Dear Donna,

Well no, I have not.
Now I come to think of it, with a thermic lance you could possibly cut through the steel bucket. With a chisel and bolster... (and a strong desire to copy Michelangelo).. the results might even end up quite beautiful.

Best wishes,

Martin

martinw

03-20-2008, 07:02 PM

Dear Geof,

Thank-you for the explanation about methane and the rainforest. Loads of biological activity seems to discourage gas production.

Actually, I can see that coniferous lakes might not be big producers from personal observation. Quite a few of the ones that I have seen in Canada do appear to be strangely biologically inactive, presumabably due to high acidity.

Ah well, it looks like, apart from the Three Gorges Dam, my school pond was about the only major global methane threat.

Do I, and my twenty-nine other skinny little fellows qualify for a Nobel Prize?

Best wishes,
Martin

xyzdonna

03-20-2008, 07:14 PM

You have it the wrong way around...and it could be my fault because of sloppy phraseology.

Vast quantities of CO2 are released during the manufacture of the cement which is used to make the concrete.

Most of the CO2 released, around 90% I think, comes from the fuel that is used to heat the kiln in which the cement is calcined; the balance comes from the minerals that are used to make cement. The calcining is actually separating water molecules and CO2 molecules that form part of the minerals.

When the cement is mixed with sand, gravel and water to make concrete a reverse chemical reaction occurs in which the water in the mix combines with the cement to more or less regenrate the original minerals that were used to make the cement. This reaction causes the growth of crystal structures which intercalate with the sand and gravel locking everything together. Also during this curing reaction some CO2 gets taken up and recombined into the crystals. CO2 uptake continues for decades but it is negligible.

Wow Geof,
I'm impressed, you sure do know a lot!
Thanks for that input,
xyzdonna

dynosor

03-20-2008, 07:51 PM

Hi dynosor,
You ever tried to get set up concrete out of a mixer?
Take care,
xyzdonna

Use fire to heat the mixer bucket then cool the concrete quickly by tossing in a bucket of water. Should flake off with alacrity. Shovel, fire, rinse and repeat as required.

xyzdonna

03-20-2008, 08:07 PM

Use fire to heat the mixer bucket then cool the concrete quickly by tossing in a bucket of water. Should flake off with alacrity. Shovel, fire, rinse and repeat as required.

Hi dynosor,
Hmmm, the old alacritic flake method eh. I guess it depends on the coefficient of expansion of the two materials. Dumb as it sounds I may try your scheme. There is some concrete that tenaciously clings to the agitator paddles. If perchance this would get that off it would be worth a little map gas. I'll let you know what happens, at the very least I'll give you a laugh for suckering me in.
Take care,
xyzdonna

fizzissist

03-20-2008, 08:32 PM

I think you're gonna need a LOT of MAPP gas!!!!

Saw an episode of Mythbusters where they used dynamite to loosen up some concrete in a cement truck....

....you might wanna check with your local BATF first though

martinw

03-20-2008, 09:14 PM

Hi dynosor,
Hmmm, the old alacritic flake method eh. I guess it depends on the coefficient of expansion of the two materials. Dumb as it sounds I may try your scheme. There is some concrete that tenaciously clings to the agitator paddles. If perchance this would get that off it would be worth a little map gas. I'll let you know what happens, at the very least I'll give you a laugh for suckering me in.
Take care,
xyzdonna
Dear Donna,

Concrete is really weak in tension. If your bucket still has a working paddle motor, how about putting in some large sharp stones, say 1 inch granite.
These will whack against the stuck on concrete and may split the stuck-on stuff like sharp chisels. My guess is that this might best be done without the addition of any water. The noise will be horrible, but it might work.

Probably better than my previous suggestion, BTW.

Best wishes,
Martin

Geof

03-20-2008, 09:56 PM

Hi dynosor,
You ever tried to get set up concrete out of a mixer?
Take care,
xyzdonna

Fairly simple. Toss in a bit of dilute hydrochloric acid and a bunch of gravel and just let it rumble away. The acid will dissolve the concrete far more rapidly than it will attack the metal of the mixer. The gravel just knocks the softened concrete loose exposing more to the acid.

martinw

03-20-2008, 10:15 PM

xyzdonna

03-21-2008, 03:28 PM

Fairly simple. Toss in a bit of dilute hydrochloric acid and a bunch of gravel and just let it rumble away. The acid will dissolve the concrete far more rapidly than it will attack the metal of the mixer. The gravel just knocks the softened concrete loose exposing more to the acid.

Hi Geof,
Believe it or not dynosor's scheme worked! I hit the paddles with a map gas torch and then scraped the concrete right off. To double check I tried scraping before torching and no dice, it wasn't coming off. The torch did the trick, didn't even have to use the water. I'll try your plan next time. I know we have some muratic acid around, here just couldn't find it.
Take care,
xyzdonna

martinw

03-21-2008, 04:22 PM

xyzdonna

03-21-2008, 05:04 PM

Actually, here is a question to do with hydrochloric acid, somewhat off-topic.

We have some overhead glazing that has been stained by lime deposits from rainwater run-off over a masonry wall above. From what has been said here, it looks like a (say, 20% acid solution would do the trick. The problem is that the glazing is held by anodised aluminium glazing bars. Does anybody have an opinion about how HCl might affect the Al, and does the fact that it is anodised make any difference?

Sorry to trouble you with my domestic cleaning problems..

Best wishes,
Martin

Hi Martin,
Anodizing is a way of increasing the oxide layer on the surface of the aluminum. This increases the corrosion resistance and should protect it from the dilute acid. But it would be best to get the definitive word from Geof.
Take care,
xyzdonna

Geof

03-21-2008, 05:37 PM

.....Does anybody have an opinion about how HCl might affect the Al, and does the fact that it is anodised make any difference?

Sorry to trouble you with my domestic cleaning problems..

Best wishes,
Martin

Dilute HCl, actually just about any dilute acid will not harm aluminum anodized or not; concentrated acid will dissolve aluminum.

Alkali, base, is bad for aluminum whether or not it is anodized. The oxide layer is soluble in alkali, and then when it is removed more oxide layer forms until everything dissolves. When aluminum engine blocks first came out over here a few repair places discovered you could not leave an aluminum block in the strongly alkaline heated degreasing bath and take it out clean next morning. By morning most of it was an aluminum hydroxide sludge in the bottom of the tank.

For your own comfort and safety try using straight vinegar which is acetic acid. If you do try HCl start with a 5% solution and work up, 20% is fairly strong.

martinw

03-21-2008, 05:42 PM

Dear Donna,
Now you come to mention it, if I passed a DC current through the glazing bars while I cleaned the glass, it might actually add to the oxide layer. Alas, I believe that it is good idea to seal aluminium after anodising with boiling water. Unlike your concrete mixer and Mapp gas, this might not have the desired thermal effects on the glass in my case.

Best wishes,

Martin

martinw

03-21-2008, 05:51 PM

Dear Geof,

Thanks,

I cross-posted. Apologies.

I tried white vinegar, with some limited success, but the area involved is quite large, and besides, I am not entirely averse to risk and fun!

Best wishes,
Martin

Geof

03-21-2008, 07:08 PM

....if I passed a DC current through the glazing bars while I cleaned the glass, it might actually add to the oxide layer. Alas, I believe that it is good idea to seal aluminium after anodising with boiling water.....Best wishes,

Martin

Boiling water is the least of your worries; anodizing uses a concentrated sulphuric acid bath. You might be daring but please not that daring.

xyzdonna

03-21-2008, 07:48 PM

Hi jhowelb,
How are you feeling? Better I hope. That flu can be nasty. Come back soon, I miss your insults.
Take care,
xyzdonna

xyzdonna

03-25-2008, 06:48 PM

Hi everybody,
Here's some interesting tidbits I ran across:
PetroSun, Inc announced that their Rio Hondo, Texas algae farm will commence operations on April 1, 2008 as PetroSun's initial commercial algae-to-biofuels facility. The current algae farm consists of 1,100 acres of saltwater ponds that the company projects will produce a minimum of 4.4 million gallons of algal oil and 110 million pounds of biomass on an annual basis. The company has dedicated 20 acres of ponds for a proposed algae derived JP8 jet fuel research and development program.

The Rio Hondo algae farm will be expanded in the future to provide the feedstock required by present or proposed company owned or joint ventured biodiesel and ethanol refineries. The Company plans to construct or acquire additional plants in the Gulf Coast region that are reachable via barge up the Mississippi River and its tributaries. The previously announced Bridgeport, Alabama refinery will receive algal oil feedstock from this distribution program.
http://www.americanfuels.info/2008/03/petrosun-issues-algae-to-biofuels.html

Me: That's 4000 gal/acre/year, pretty decent yield. They are using salt water ponds, no desalination required.

Most new automobiles built in the U.S. by General Motors and other manufacturers are equipped to run on 85% ethanol. To fuel these cars ethanol production must be expanded significantly. With corn at over $5 per bushel, current plants spend nearly $2 to produce a gallon of ethanol that sells for $2.60. AETE’s process using common cellulosic biomass will produce ethanol for less than $1 per gallon.

“One dollar ethanol will allow us to operate profitably without government subsidies or incentives,” noted Brown Marks, AETE’s President. “We expect to produce over 100 gallons of fuel per ton of cellulosic biomass which costs about $65 in today’s market,” he stated. “We have designed our technology to use low cost feed stocks that are widely available at low cost. We use a low energy input design to increase efficiency and we can place our plants wherever there is abundant biomass available,” he concluded.
http://www.greenbang.com/2698/1-per-gallon-ethanol-created/

Me: It would seem that good ol' yankee ingenuity has prevailed. You "nattering nabobs of negativism" have been refuted!
Take care,
xyzdonna

fizzissist

03-25-2008, 08:21 PM

jhowelb

03-25-2008, 09:11 PM

How much fuel has Petro Sun, Inc sold to date on the open market?
We need 140 trillion gallons of gasoline each year!

xyzdonna

03-26-2008, 06:08 AM

How much fuel has Petro Sun, Inc sold to date on the open market?
We need 140 trillion gallons of gasoline each year!

Hi jhowelb,
It looks like you're feeling better, hope the antibiotics are helping.
According to how stuff works: "In a year, therefore, the U.S. consumes about 146 billion gallons (about 550 billion liters) of gasoline!"
http://auto.howstuffworks.com/question417.htm
I think you may be off by a few zeros but you're allowed since you're probably still sick.
Take care and get well soon,
xyzdonna

xyzdonna

03-26-2008, 06:40 AM

I worked with a guy who has just patented a process for converting coffee grounds into biofuel. What nobody knows that hasn't been closely associated with him is that he is a king of "dry lab-ing". (Geof probably knows what I mean)

He'd patent shoelaces if he could.

The proof's in the pudding. If these guys actually produce close to what they claim, so much the better, and I commend them. But the reality is...

I'm not pessimistic, just realistic. Grandiose claims are often made to attract investors...which is exactly what the coffee ground patent is all about.

Hi fizzissist,
According to my calculations, (which admittidly aren't going to be as good as Mariss's) that translates to 57031.25 sq miles. That should be easy to do. Just pump a little sea water into Death Valley, install some photobioreactors, wave a wand and shout "transesterification" and shazaam! All the biodiesel we'll ever need.
Can somebody check my math: 4000 gal/acre/year divided by 1,000 = 4 K.
This is so the numbers fit on the little calculator I've got.
146 billion = 146,000,000,000 = 146 MK (A million thousand = 1 billion).
146 MK divided by 4 K = 36.5 M Acres necessary to grow the biodiesel we would need.
Since 1 acre = 0.0015625 square miles:
36.5M * 0.0015625 square miles = 57,031.25 Sq. miles. (give or take a few decimal points).
Thanks and take care,
xyzdonna

handlewanker

03-26-2008, 08:09 AM

xyzdonna

03-26-2008, 08:19 AM

Hey Donna, your'e forgetting one thing, the population, (of the USA that is), is replicating itself at a rate that is unsustainable for your project to supply them with all the bio wotsits you folks want but don't need.

Try advocating the reduction in useage of all the economies, and you'll start to achieve sense in your crazy mixed up world.
Ian.

Hi handlewanker,
I applaud your suggestion. Conservation is the way to go. But the way I'm going is out of town (to Atlanta) for about 5 days. If I figure out how to access the internet there I'll post. If not, you won't here from me till next Sunday.
Take care,
xyzdonna
PS: Don't let johwelb run amuck while I'm gone.

jhowelb

03-26-2008, 08:34 AM

Hi jhowelb,
It looks like you're feeling better, hope the antibiotics are helping.
According to how stuff works: "In a year, therefore, the U.S. consumes about 146 billion gallons (about 550 billion liters) of gasoline!"
http://auto.howstuffworks.com/question417.htm
I think you may be off by a few zeros but you're allowed since you're probably still sick.
Take care and get well soon,
xyzdonna

As usual, you assume much and account for nothing.
The problem with web sites like "How it work" is they are not dated, sourced nor accountable. Sorta like the Democrat party. Neither do they account for agriculture, aircraft gas, jet fuel or military.

Regardless of actula use you have not accounted for the central question.

HOW MUCH PRODUCTION?

As an investor, how much of my dollar came back in the form of PROFIT?

fizzissist

03-26-2008, 11:29 AM

............ That should be easy to do. Just pump a little sea water into Death Valley, install some photobioreactors, wave a wand and shout "transesterification" and shazaam! All the biodiesel we'll ever need.....................

xyzdonna

You can't use Death Valley, but there's a whole lot of presently unused acreage bounded by California hwy's 190-136 and US 395 immediately north of Olancha and Cartago. You probably couldn't hurt the Owens Valley any more than L.A. County has already by draining it by filling it back up with sea water.

The increase in humidity might also be a welcome change for the guys in China Lake when the wind shifts south!

Seems like every time I drive 395 the wind is going the opposite direction of me.....wrecks havoc with my mileage.
(btw, diesel was $4.79/gal in Bridgeport last weekend)

Geof

03-26-2008, 01:43 PM

You can't use Death Valley, ....

Why not? Think of the benefits.

There is a considerable difference in elevation between sea level and Death Valley so hydro power could be generated by the water pouring in.

Death Valley has a considerable evaporative potential so if the flow was moderated it would never fill up and hydro power could be generated indefinitely. It would be analogous to a hydro dam but without the silting problem.

On the downwind, eastern, side the newly created atmospheric moisture would enormously enhance precipitation so agricultural opportunities would be enhanced.

The evaporative losses would gradually cause the salinity of Death Lake to increase which would create a tourist attraction like the Dead Sea and also eventually allow for the economic extraction of minerals such as magnesium because of the concentration increase.

All together a win-win-win situation.

Let's start a company and sell Carbon Credits.

Mariss Freimanis

03-26-2008, 01:48 PM

XYZ,

Excerpt: .....that translates to 57031.25 sq miles. That should be easy to do. Just pump a little sea water into Death Valley,....

1) Your math is OK but there may be a little problem coming to terms with the magnitude of the numbers.
2) Why is every pipe dream situated in the Desert Southwest?

You said you are going to Atlanta and I believe you live in Chattanooga? If so, this is fortuitous. I got a map of the Southeast, imported it into Autocad, used the scale provided on the map to draw a 135 mile radius circle whose area is 57,000 square miles. I'm calling it "XYZmodanna's Algae Bog of The Eternal Stench", and in your honor, placed it's center in Chattanooga.

As you drive to Atlanta, you should get a feel for just how large an area 57,000 square miles really is. You get to Atlanta and you are still within the periphery of The Algae Bog. Go north from Chattanooga and you are in Kentucky before you reach solid ground again. Other directions take you into Alabama, North and South Carolina before your feet are dry.:-)

The drive should impress you with the enormity of what you propose. Think of it centered where you live, not where I live. Algae has a stench, you know.

Mariss

Geof

03-26-2008, 02:02 PM

....Algae has a stench, you know.

Mariss

Mariss don't be so negative. :D

We are talking about plants which don't have a stench until they start rotting. And this is not going to be allowed to happen! It cannot be allowed to happen because every last little bit of algae is going to be harvested to turn it into biofuel.

jhowelb

03-26-2008, 03:10 PM

You can't use Death Valley, but there's a whole lot of presently unused acreage bounded by California hwy's 190-136 and US 395 immediately north of Olancha and Cartago. You probably couldn't hurt the Owens Valley any more than L.A. County has already by draining it by filling it back up with sea water.

The increase in humidity might also be a welcome change for the guys in China Lake when the wind shifts south!

Seems like every time I drive 395 the wind is going the opposite direction of me.....wrecks havoc with my mileage.
(btw, diesel was $4.79/gal in Bridgeport last weekend)

Oh, HELL yes! Let's pump salt water in and destroy the water table forever for every on in the South West. The hell with the ecology all that is important is the latest "feel good" liberal clap trap to hit the line!

jhowelb

03-26-2008, 03:40 PM

Here is an "original" thought! Rather than trying to "grow" our fuel in the food belt or ship our woes off to "fly over country" in the form of salt water cesspools, why don't we just use the fuel that God provided for us. Like the remaining petroleum, oil shale, oil sand, coal, natural gas and even methane hydrates? There is no energy shortage, there is a BRAIN shortage. We need to use what we have while preparing for the future (maybe nuclear? maybe cold fusion?) by the investment in REAL energy rather than swamp gas?

Mariss Freimanis

03-26-2008, 03:43 PM

Mariss don't be so negative. :D

We are talking about plants which don't have a stench until they start rotting. And this is not going to be allowed to happen! It cannot be allowed to happen because every last little bit of algae is going to be harvested to turn it into biofuel.

There already is a very large lake in southeast California (hardcore desert area) called the Salton Sea, about a 3-hour drive from here. It gets algae blooms every year and when it does, the stench literally takes your breath away. The smell is absolutely indescribable; pig farms smell like perfume by comparison.

Mariss

fizzissist

03-26-2008, 04:27 PM

......why don't we just use the fuel that God provided for us. Like the remaining petroleum, oil shale, oil sand, coal, natural gas and even methane hydrates? There is no energy shortage, there is a BRAIN shortage. We need to use what we have while preparing for the future (maybe nuclear? maybe cold fusion?) by the investment in REAL energy rather than swamp gas?

The Lahontan basin was once flooded, and it worked out just fine!.....Maybe we need to re-flood it. Heck, the hills around Oildale (Bakersfield's next door neighbor) are covered with shark's teeth that you can find just walking around. It was the bottom of the ocean at one time.

Well, if we want to use the fuel that God gave us, ....well, we are. It's just that He stored a lot of it in the middle east.

Geof

03-26-2008, 04:37 PM

There already is a very large lake in southeast California (hardcore desert area) called the Salton Sea, about a 3-hour drive from here. It gets algae blooms every year and when it does, the stench literally takes your breath away. The smell is absolutely indescribable; pig farms smell like perfume by comparison.

Mariss

There you have it! Your algal biofuel reactor ready made. Harvest the algae, convert to fuel, no more stench and everything is cool.

I had forgotten about the Salton Sea; it gets run-off from the Central Valley with lots and lots of fertilizer residue believe.

By the way, I don't dispute your opinion of the odour you get from decaying algal blooms; I have lived in estuarine locations that suffer from them. Mind you I have also lived on a farm and I think your pig farm perfume comparison is almost as much of an exaggeration as I am prone to sometimes.

Mariss Freimanis

03-26-2008, 04:58 PM

Geof,

OK, point taken but I don't think Chanel will bottle either fragrance anytime soon.

The Salton Sea was formed by accident in the early 1900's when railroads were extended into Southern California. The Colorado River was diverted during construction and a levee break allowed the Colorado to flow into the below sea level (-200ft ?) basin that now forms the Salton Sea.

It is hardcore desert 120+F (50C) during the summer, 2-3" (50 to 75mm) of annual precipitation. The Central Valley is far to the northwest and 6,000 to 10,000 ft (2-3km) high transverse mountain ranges separates the two regions.

Mariss

Geof

03-26-2008, 05:35 PM

.... The Central Valley is far to the northwest and 6,000 to 10,000 ft (2-3km) high transverse mountain ranges separates the two regions.

Mariss

I was vaguely aware of how the Salton Sea was created but obviously I am confusing it with something else. I remember a Discovery Channel thing years ago about some water body that had been made essentially lifeless due to the fertilizer runoff.

Actually, on a serious note, I think a good argument could be made for doing a trial algae biofuel system in the Salton Sea. After all is is a human created feature so nothing 'natural' would be put in jeopardy.

Mariss Freimanis

03-26-2008, 06:29 PM

Can't do that. Like everywhere in California, there are probably some endangered species living in the Salton Sea. Maybe an endangered worm or something.

Mariss

dynosor

03-26-2008, 06:53 PM

Can't do that. Like everywhere in California, there are probably some endangered species...

Yes, they are called Republicans.

fizzissist

03-26-2008, 07:13 PM

Californians??

You know you're a Californian if:

1. Your coworker has 8 body piercings and none are visible.

2. You make over $300,000 and still can't afford a house.

3. You take a bus and are shocked at two people carrying on a conversation in English.

4. Your child's 3rd-grade teacher has purple hair, a nose ring, and is named Flower.

5. You can't remember . . is pot illegal?

6. You've been to a baby shower that has two mothers and a sperm donor.

7. You have a very strong opinion about where your coffee beans are grown, and you can taste the difference between Sumatran and Ethiopian.

8. You can't remember . . . is pot illegal?

9. A really great parking space can totally move you to tears.

10. Gas costs $1.00 per gallon more than anywhere else in the U.S.

11. Unlike back home, the guy at 8:30 am at Starbucks wearing a baseball cap and sunglasses who looks like George Clooney really IS George Clooney.

12. Your car insurance costs as much as your house payment.

13. You can't remember . . .is pot illegal?

14. It's barely sprinkling rain and there's a report on every news station: "STORM WATCH."

15. You pass an elementary school playground and the children are all busy with their cells or pagers.

16. It's barely sprinkling rain outside, so you leave for work an hour early to avoid all the weather-related accidents.

17. HEY!!!! Is pot illegal????

18. Both you AND your dog have therapists.

19. The Terminator is your governor.

20. If you drive illegally, they take your driver's license. If you're here illegally, they want to give you one.

.....and for all you machinists out there.....
You know better than to try and drive from the Fadal plant to the Haas plant around 5pm.