shotout...

are you a former artillery man?

I'm afraid I don't understand the allusion.

Shotout...

in artillery speak a shotout is a round out of range of target...long, short or wide.

I was a redleg for 8 years. It was not meant as an insult, it's just an interesting handle.

Shotout...

in artillery speak a shotout is a round out of range of target...long, short or wide.

I was a redleg for 8 years. It was not meant as an insult, it's just an interesting handle.

I never had the honor of serving in the armed forces. I earned the nickname the hard way I'm afraid. I, at the tender age of 22, was a tee-totaler. I had begun boarding at a stable shortly before New Years that year and was invited to a party. After a few lovely ladies, each did fill out a pair of Wranglers nicely BTW, decided to get me drunk with After Shock (called it a girls drink, real mild 'Just smell it') I was thusly christened.

When a rifled barrel fire arm has had so much hard ball ammo fired through it that the rifling no longer can impart a ballistic spin it is said to be "shotout".

All right boys and girls, here is....
AN IMPORTANT LESSON IN HISTORY

Humans originally existed as members of small bands of nomadic hunters/gatherers. They lived on deer in the mountains during the summer and would go to the coast and live on fish and lobster in the winter.

The two most important events in all of history were:

1. The invention of beer, and
2. The invention of the wheel.

The wheel was invented to get man to the beer.

These were the foundation of modern civilization and together were the catalyst for the splitting of humanity into two distinct subgroups:

1. Liberals
2. Conservatives

Once beer was discovered, it required grain and that was the beginning of agriculture. Neither the glass bottle nor aluminum can were invented yet for shipping the beer, so early humans stayed close to the brewery. That's how villages were formed.

Some men spent their days tracking and killing animals to B B Q at night while they were drinking beer. This was the beginning of what is known as the Conservative Movement.

Other men who were weaker and less skilled at hunting learned to live off the conservatives by showing up for the nightly BBQ's and do the sewing, fetching, and shampooing and dressing of hair. This was the beginning of the Liberal Movement.

Some of these liberal men evolved into women. The rest became known as girlie-men.

Some noteworthy liberal achievements include the domestication of cats, the invention of group therapy, group hugs, and the concept of socialism so they could divide the meat and beer that the Conservatives provided.

Over the years Conservatives came to be symbolized by the largest, most powerful land animal on earth, the elephant. Liberals are symbolized by the jackass.

Modern liberals like imported beer (with a lime or an orange added), but most prefer white wine or imported bottled water. They eat raw fish (but like their beef well done), sushi, tofu, and French food. Another interesting evolutionary side note: most of their women have higher testosterone levels than liberal men. Most social workers, personal injury attorneys, journalists, Hollywood actors and group therapists are liberals.

Conservatives drink domestic beer. They eat red meat and still provide for their women and families. Conservatives are big-game hunters, rodeo cowboys, lumberjacks, construction workers, firemen, medical doctors, police officers, corporate executives, athletes, Marines and generally anyone who works productively. Conservatives who own companies like to hire other conservatives because they want to work for a living.

Liberals produce little or nothing. They like to govern the producers and decide what to do with the production. Liberals believe Europeans are more enlightened than Americans. That is why most of the liberals remained in Europe when conservatives first came to America. They crept in after the Wild West was tamed and created a business of trying to get more for nothing.

This ends today's lesson in world history.......

It should be noted that a Liberal may have a momentary urge to angrily respond to this history lesson before forwarding it.
A Conservative on the other hand, will simply laugh and be so convinced of the absolute truth of this history lesson that it will be forwarded immediately to other true believers and maybe to liberals just to pi$$ them off....

Hi jhowelb,
I leave the forum for a few days and come back to find you're making mayhem again. That was pretty funny though. What a week this has been, we've just about got my office cleaned up, another day should do it and then I'll paint it to cover up the soot we couldn't get off. I've just gotten out of the hospital, had a colonoscopy. Whatever ya'll may think, this is one time I can guarantee I'm not full of *hit.
Lately I've been researching the Permian extinction even. This happened about 250 million years ago and resulted in the loss of about 90 percent of the species on earth. They are not sure what triggered it, an asteroid, volcanic activity, but it was likely exacerbated by the release of methane gas as the planet warmed. This is what worries me most. The melting of the Siberian permafrost releasing billions of metric tons of methane into the atmosphere. This would possibly result in another extinction event, the extinction of the human race.
xyzdonna

.........then I'll paint it to cover up the soot we couldn't get off.In another life I sprayed, rolled and brushed more paint than most folks ever see.

FWIW: DON"T paint directly over that soot. Put a product called "Killz" on it first to keep the soot from bleeding through.


I've just gotten out of the hospital, had a colonoscopyBeen there, done THAT! No fun but needed. You've had time to build a new supply! :-D

They are not sure what triggered it, an asteroid, volcanic activity, but it was likely exacerbated by the release of methane gas as the planet warmed. This is what worries me most. The melting of the Siberian permafrost releasing billions of metric tons of methane into the atmosphere.Could be, maybe, possibly , likely! Lets get some real proof before we destroy whats left of our lifestyle.

First off, 1/2 of 1 degree over 200 years means nothing. A turn around is coming and we will be looking for ways to warm things up. (Hard to grow food in ice.)

The melting of the Siberian permafrost releasing billions of metric tons of methane If things were to warm enough to do that we could cap the area with asphalt to trap the methane then use it for fuel. (Much the same as county dumps are being "mined" for methane now.)

Secondly: There isn't one damned thing we can do to stop any changing of climate anyway so worrying about it will accomplish nothing more than keep you awake at night or give you an ulcer.

Any opinions of what happened 250 million years ago are absolute speculation regardless of the university degree held by "speculee" (singular of speculum!) Relax and go along for the ride because it would require a catastrophic event to radically alter the climate. For example if Yellowstone were to pop it's top again. If that happens, really quick, convert to Christianity for the only salvation available to you!!

In another life I sprayed, rolled and brushed more paint than most folks ever see.

FWIW: DON"T paint directly over that soot. Put a product called "Killz" on it first to keep the soot from bleeding through.


Thanks for the tip jhowelb,
I'll try that, I've heard of the product.


Been there, done THAT! No fun but needed. You've had time to build a new supply! :-D


Ah jhowelb,
You may be a conservative but at least you've got a sense of humor, you can't be all bad.


Could be, maybe, possibly , likely! Lets get some real proof before we destroy whats left of our lifestyle.

First off, 1/2 of 1 degree over 200 years means nothing. A turn around is coming and we will be looking for ways to warm things up. (Hard to grow food in ice.)

If things were to warm enough to do that we could cap the area with asphalt to trap the methane then use it for fuel. (Much the same as county dumps are being "mined" for methane now.)

Secondly: There isn't one damned thing we can do to stop any changing of climate anyway so worrying about it will accomplish nothing more than keep you awake at night or give you an ulcer.

It's funny, I thought of that, maybe put down a polyethylene tarp to cover the peat bogs and trap the methane. Trouble is it's going to be coming from everywhere. Amazon river basins and what not. I don't see an easy fix.


Any opinions of what happened 250 million years ago are absolute speculation regardless of the university degree held by "speculee" (singular of speculum!) Relax and go along for the ride because it would require a catastrophic event to radically alter the climate. For example if Yellowstone were to pop it's top again. If that happens, really quick, convert to Christianity for the only salvation available to you!!

Well we'll just have to wait and see I guess. BTW, I see McCain is coming aboard of the global warming bandwagon. Whatcha think about that?

xyzdonna

I think that the North Vietnamese kicked him too many times in the head. He fits better with Democrats and Libs and has from the time he came home. He is one of you!

BTW.....I had a colonectomy! Diverticulitis went chronic and burst into the paratonium, Many painful days and days in the hosp. waiting for the antibiotics to suppress the infection enough to do surgery.

What ever that Doc says....DO IT!

I think that the North Vietnamese kicked him too many times in the head. He fits better with Democrats and Libs and has from the time he came home. He is one of you!

BTW.....I had a colonectomy! Diverticulitis went chronic and burst into the paratonium, Many painful days and days in the hosp. waiting for the antibiotics to suppress the infection enough to do surgery.

What ever that Doc says....DO IT!

Thanks jhowelb,
I'll take your advice on this as well as the paint. Here's a quote for you:

If impossibly Draconian security measures are not immediately put in place to keep further emissions of greenhouse gases out of the atmosphere we are looking at the death of billions, the end of civilization as we know it and in all probability the end of man's several million year old existence, along with the extinction of most flora and fauna beloved to man in the world we share.
http://www.countercurrents.org/cc-henderson190806.htm
That says it all.
xyzdonna

Here is the most important part of your article;

Ticking Time Bomb by John Atcheson , a geologist writing in the Baltimore Sun

This guy is a geologist, he studies ROCKS!

Maybe we should also ask your proctologist! I'm sure he has an opinion as well and we know what he studies and, well, you know what they say about opinions!

In scanning the other topics proffered by that site I would just surmise that they are on a list of reactionaries somewhere.

Always beware of anyone who comes on with "unless you do X then Y (shudder) is surely to follow!" As in "Unless you send me your bank account number and pin number right now, not only will you lose the ten gazillion bucks you've won, we will be forced to foreclose on your property as well!"

IE "The sky is falling!"

When these folks lead by example and begin to move to the Gobi Desert to live in Yak tents and cook on dung fires they will finally get my attention. As long as they, continue to follow their lavish life styles, like Algore, I will consider them to be evil conspirators. When they conform to their own standards I will consider them to be a bad joke.

Sorry, no sale!

Political Correctness is a doctrine, fostered by a delusional, illogical, liberal minority and rabidly promoted by an unscrupulous mainstream media, which holds forth the proposition that it is entirely possible to pick up a turd by the clean end.

Political Correctness is a doctrine, fostered by a delusional, illogical, liberal minority and rabidly promoted by an unscrupulous mainstream media, which holds forth the proposition that it is entirely possible to pick up a turd by the clean end.

Hi jhowelb,
Political incorrectness however is a doctrine fostered by the radical right. The apostles of ignorance. The average right wing conservative. The mainstream media that you allude to, is the correct thinking free press of our democracy.
xyzdonna

O.K.! You are a much bigger and better liar than I! (he, he, he!)

Boring! No intellectual challenge, no strategy challenge, no activity, not even a good cuss fight!

Gonna punch out. No point in arguing with a fence post anyway.

Boring! No intellectual challenge, no strategy challenge, no activity, not even a good cuss fight!

Gonna punch out. No point in arguing with a fence post anyway.

Hi jhowelb,
I guess I'm the last person left on the debate, I guess I won!
xyzdonna

Well, let's see..................

A number of people were discussing thing by a sign post which carried blatantly wrong messages.
All the people got disgusted and left and the sign mindlessly makes the same wrong statements.
Who "won"? The sign?
If by standing there longest is "winning", maybe.
The hieroglyphs in the Ancient tombs proclaim Pharaoh to be god and king to this day. They (the hieroglyphs) are "winners" too and by a magnitude high above you!

You are STILL Wxyz!

END of argument! END of discussion! END of aggravation.

Congratulations, "WINNER"!

Be sure to collect your prize at the door as you exit. The one that reads "1st Place for Creating the Most Pointless Dissension". My congratulations; you fought hard for it and have truly earned it.

Mariss

Be sure to collect your prize at the door as you exit. The one that reads "1st Place for Creating the Most Pointless Dissension". My congratulations; you fought hard for it and have truly earned it.

Mariss

Hi Mariss,
Sorry you feel that way, maybe you're right. I do admit to being a little lazy of late, not doing the research that I used to do. Many pressing things here to attend to. I'll leave ya'll once again. I think everyone has tired of me and my arguments. Don't want to overstay my welcome. As I said before, only time will tell if I was right or not.
Take care,
xyzdonna

Well, let's see..................

A number of people were discussing thing by a sign post which carried blatantly wrong messages.
All the people got disgusted and left and the sign mindlessly makes the same wrong statements.
Who "won"? The sign?
If by standing there longest is "winning", maybe.
The hieroglyphs in the Ancient tombs proclaim Pharaoh to be god and king to this day. They (the hieroglyphs) are "winners" too and by a magnitude high above you!

You are STILL Wxyz!

END of argument! END of discussion! END of aggravation.

Congratulations, "WINNER"!

Hi jhowelb,
I've enjoyed sparing with you, you've got a good sense of humor! It's been fun, I'll leave you now, might check back in a year or two to see if anyone's changed their mind. It might happen.
Take care,
xyzdonna

Typical liberalism at large. Come in, beat people with demagoguery and partisan dogma, make a stink, deny being part of the problem and blame everyone else for screwing it all up. Then claim victory as a martyr for the cause.......

You bring out the worst in people! What a waste of typing skills.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FNgaVtVaiJE (<object width="425" height="355"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/FNgaVtVaiJE&rel=1"></param><param name="wmode" value="transparent"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/FNgaVtVaiJE&rel=1" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" wmode="transparent" width="425" height="355"></embed></object>)

Go iron spouse's shirts!

DC

Typical liberalism at large. Come in, beat people with demagoguery and partisan dogma, make a stink, deny being part of the problem and blame everyone else for screwing it all up. Then claim victory as a martyr for the cause.......

You bring out the worst in people! What a waste of typing skills.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FNgaVtVaiJE (<object width="425" height="355"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/FNgaVtVaiJE&rel=1"></param><param name="wmode" value="transparent"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/FNgaVtVaiJE&rel=1" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" wmode="transparent" width="425" height="355"></embed></object>)

Go iron spouse's shirts!

DC

Hi One of Many,
Sorry, don't own an iron. But I have to agree with you on one point. Apparently I do bring out the worst in people, I am amazed at the vitriol directed at me by all of you. One would think that conservatives could respect a dissenting view point without responding with such disdain. I suppose that would be illogical though. The conservative mindset is such that it cannot couch disagreement.
take care,
xyzdonna

Yes XYZ, I do feel that way but I don't think you know the reason. I'm sure you are charming and likable personally so my comments are directed at your words, not your person.

What settled it for me was when you finally said your purpose here was to change people's minds; "come around to thinking the right way" if I paraphrase your words correctly. Though obnoxious, it can be overlooked in an 18 year old; it's excusable as youthful enthusiasm yet to come into synchronization with respect for other people.

Clearly you are older so that excuse doesn't work. What it told me was:

(1) You didn't respect other people's beliefs, thoughts and opinions. You never gave any consideration other people may have spent just as much time as you to form their stated perspective. Yours was only you posses knowledge of what's right and anyone disagreeing with you was wrong. That is deeply insulting and dismissive of the respect people deserve.

(2) Your mind is closed and reason cannot appeal to it; you were here only to speak, not listen. Once it became clear communication from you was in one direction only, continuing further dialog became pointless. Ideologs make poor conversationalists.

Finally, your interjection of extraneous political comments, observations on theology and stereotyping of peoples beliefs became too hard to overlook and leave unanswered. Rather than taking a hint and stopping it, you only redoubled your efforts in that arena. You wonder about the "vitriol" coming your way. Your method is batting your eyelashes while you say "Did I say something wrong?" Not a clue, huh? :-)

So yes, you are the 1st-place winner of a prize you created especially for yourself.

Mariss

More nonsense? Who was it throwing around distain and vitriol for Christian's and Conservatives before I ever entered this to defend my principles. Here is more proof you won't stop bashing for the sake of arguing because you thrive on goading disagreement and make fiction up as you go along. I think most people are tired of reading your blather. There is plenty wrong with both sides. Give it a rest already!

DC

......One would think that conservatives could respect a dissenting view point without responding with such disdain.... I suppose that would be illogical though. The conservative mindset is such that it cannot couch disagreement.
take care,
xyzdonna

Actually I tried, many, many posts back, presenting logical arguments pointing out some of the fallacies, and undue optimism, in your reasoning. In some cases, the one I remember clearest was with reference to the cement needed if we were going to move to nuclear energy. My contention was that, in the short term, this would increase CO2 emissions because the manufacture of cement produces enormous amounts of CO2, both from combustion of hydrocarbons to generate heat and from the minerals being cooked. You actually did some investigation and acknowledged that you were not aware that cement production produce so much CO2. But then you gtradually transformed into an airy fairy 'if we think it can be done it can be done type of mind set'.

I am a pretty liberal kind of conservative but you are such a woolly minded liberal that compared with you I am the eptome of conservatism. Quite a while ago I came to the conclusion you were either playing a big game and just egging people on; or you really do not have a clue. Either way it was a waste of time to respond. I do admit, however, you do have a point...only time will tell. The problem is if governments follow your woolly minded thinking and the extreme prognostications from the Anthropogenic Global Warming gurus come true we will be faced with dealing with them with an economy thatb is in tatters, because nothing can be done to prevent it if it is going to happen, and any attempts to realistically reduce CO2 emissions will put the world economy in tatters.

Typical liberalism at large. Come in, beat people with demagoguery and partisan dogma, make a stink, deny being part of the problem and blame everyone else for screwing it all up. Then claim victory as a martyr for the cause.......

You bring out the worst in people! What a waste of typing skills.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FNgaVtVaiJE

Go iron spouse's shirts!

DC

Like watching an old movie of naval battles among sailing warships. Broadside after broadside, smoke and thunder, splintering Gunwales and blood every where and the Captain says "You'll never defeat me" as his ship is shattered under his feet and the last of his deck hands falls in combat. Wxyz, wake up and sniff the popcorn.

DC, your "flick" puts a perfect frame around every thing Democrat (Liberal/progressive) in sight. Can be summed up in one word: HYPOCRITES!

( Just HAD to return for one more parting shot. Nausea not withstanding!)

Like watching an old movie of naval battles among sailing warships. Broadside after broadside, smoke and thunder, splintering Gunwales and blood every where and the Captain says "You'll never defeat me" as his ship is shattered under his feet and the last of his deck hands falls in combat. Wxyz, wake up and sniff the popcorn.

DC, your "flick" puts a perfect frame around every thing Democrat (Liberal/progressive) in sight. Can be summed up in one word: HYPOCRITES!

( Just HAD to return for one more parting shot. Nausea not withstanding!)

The sad part is in trying to defend my own narrow sheltered existence, I also become a hypocrite. Disagreement should not include words like idiot, moron, or any other descriptive adjunct without painting a negative reflection on the one delivering it. I don't mind bashing my own when appropriate and well deserved, but it is so hard to deal with those opposed to my views when disdain and disrespect is the primary premise that defends the issue. I admit to falling into that trap, but I think I try to back it up with substantial media like the flick that shows the vocal dissenting whiners throwing stones also live in a glass house. Claiming purity won't ever make it so!

DC

jhowelb,

I know liberals all to well; they are ideological zealots who cannot be reasoned with and know no shame. They become enraged, vindictive and hateful when what they are pushing doesn't sell. The only difference between XYZ and the other kind is whether they wield power or not. I had to stand by and watch my daughter be excoriated and humiliated while she was in college by liberal thug professors and activists. Her crime? She asked that her English professor not proselytize his particular form of anti-American, anti-white and anti-heterosexual hatred in the classroom instead of teaching English, a compulsory course. The resulting hatred and vitriol dumped on her was beyond imagining, both to her face and on the DailyKOS, the epitome of cultured liberal philosophy and thinking on the web. Never heard of it? Hillary Clinton, Barack Obama, Chris Dodd, John Edwards and Bill Richardson attended the DailyKOS convention this past summer.

Loving liberal reaction more than anything is what prompted her to join the Army National Guard and why she will probably be going to Iraq this spring. She also thinks its "time to make change" (as the slogan goes) in her own way.

Mariss

More nonsense? Who was it throwing around distain and vitriol for Christian's and Conservatives before I ever entered this to defend my principles. Here is more proof you won't stop bashing for the sake of arguing because you thrive on goading disagreement and make fiction up as you go along. I think most people are tired of reading your blather. There is plenty wrong with both sides. Give it a rest already!

DC

Hi One of Many,
I intend to give it a rest. But for one last moment I have Marisse's ear. After this I'm sure he'll put an xyz filter on his email. But for just one last time I think he'll listen to what I say. After that, who knows, so just let me say one more thing.
OK?
xyzdonna

Actually I tried, many, many posts back, presenting logical arguments pointing out some of the fallacies, and undue optimism, in your reasoning. In some cases, the one I remember clearest was with reference to the cement needed if we were going to move to nuclear energy. My contention was that, in the short term, this would increase CO2 emissions because the manufacture of cement produces enormous amounts of CO2, both from combustion of hydrocarbons to generate heat and from the minerals being cooked. You actually did some investigation and acknowledged that you were not aware that cement production produce so much CO2. But then you gtradually transformed into an airy fairy 'if we think it can be done it can be done type of mind set'.

I am a pretty liberal kind of conservative but you are such a woolly minded liberal that compared with you I am the eptome of conservatism. Quite a while ago I came to the conclusion you were either playing a big game and just egging people on; or you really do not have a clue. Either way it was a waste of time to respond. I do admit, however, you do have a point...only time will tell. The problem is if governments follow your woolly minded thinking and the extreme prognostications from the Anthropogenic Global Warming gurus come true we will be faced with dealing with them with an economy thatb is in tatters, because nothing can be done to prevent it if it is going to happen, and any attempts to realistically reduce CO2 emissions will put the world economy in tatters.

Hi Geof,
Thank you for responding to me one last time. I'm leaving this discussion but I really did respect your posts. You have a reasoned and well thought out philosophy. Although I think you are wrong, I respect what you say, I only disagree.
Take care,
xyzdonna

Mariss,
The libs were already there when my sister, 13 years my senior, attended high school. The huge thrust then was Darwinism as a quasi religion which was not to be questioned.

My sister, being devout in her deep seated faith would not answer the teachers questions as though she were reciting fact. Instead she would say, "The book says,..." and then give the correct answer as taught in the classroom. Even as an A student she was hounded, pounded and ostracized unmercifully. To the degree that she couldn't even finish school and graduate.

Then the same teachers recognized the last name (small town) when I came along and the beating I took can't be describe in polite language. I also was not allowed to finish school.

So much for liberal compassion. Conform or we will crush you and all your relatives too!

Couple that with the other things you know of me and you'll get a glimpse of why I view libs with such hatred!

I pray to my God that your family will not have to pay the ultimate price for their views. The country and our way of life is worth the sacrifice but what a shame if it were precipitated by the unthinking, mindless types we have witnessed.

DC, you have absolutely nothing to defend. I'll stand shoulder to shoulder with you till we all go down, but never doubt that your mind and heart are right!

Hi Mariss,
Quote: Yes XYZ, I do feel that way but I don't think you know the reason. I'm sure you are charming and likable personally so my comments are directed at your words, not your person.

Me: Hmmmm, nah, I can pretty much be a *itch in person as well.

Quote: What settled it for me was when you finally said your purpose here was to change people's minds; "come around to thinking the right way" if I paraphrase your words correctly. Though obnoxious, it can be overlooked in an 18 year old; it's excusable as youthful enthusiasm yet to come into synchronization with respect for other people.

Clearly you are older so that excuse doesn't work. What it told me was:

(1) You didn't respect other people's beliefs, thoughts and opinions. You never gave any consideration other people may have spent just as much time as you to form their stated perspective. Yours was only you posses knowledge of what's right and anyone disagreeing with you was wrong. That is deeply insulting and dismissive of the respect people deserve.

Me: Yes, absolutely, I was here to change peoples' minds. Mine could be changed as Geof mentioned. I was open and amenable to facts and reason, I guess I was mistaken in thinking you would be as well. I don't deny your basic contention that I could come off as contemptuous and dismissive. That is more an element of my debating style and sense of humor than it is of disrespect toward anyone on this list. I look at things from a different perspective. I'm not offended when I'm attacked, it just doesn't bother me. Everything from my gender, my sexual orientation even my veracity has been questioned. Like water off a duck's back, it just didn't matter. I'm not so self important that I let insults like that bother me.

Quote:(2) Your mind is closed and reason cannot appeal to it; you were here only to speak, not listen. Once it became clear communication from you was in one direction only, continuing further dialog became pointless. Ideologs make poor conversationalists.

Me: Nothing could be further from the truth. My mind was always open to facts logic and reason. As I mentioned once, you almost changed my mind. On the synthetic fuels issue you almost had me convinced that it was hopeless. Then I found out that they could get 5,000 gal/acre/year, the problem was the capital costs of the photobioreactors. An engineering problem if you ask me. It can be done (it is being done) the only question is where will the two graphs intersect. At what cost per barrel of oil will the process become competitive. Yes, ideologues do make poor conversationalists.

Quote: Finally, your interjection of extraneous political comments, observations on theology and stereotyping of peoples beliefs became too hard to overlook and leave unanswered. Rather than taking a hint and stopping it, you only redoubled your efforts in that arena. You wonder about the "vitriol" coming your way. Your method is batting your eyelashes while you say "Did I say something wrong?" Not a clue, huh? :-)

So yes, you are the 1st-place winner of a prize you created especially for yourself.

Me: Yes, I admit to that fault. I can be rather harsh on people's dogmatic religious beliefs. Being from the southeast I'm inundated with (what I consider to be) the inanity of it. My apologies to you jhowelb. I didn't realize you had been the victim of that kind of persecution. It is inexcusable.
I did it however, to make one point. That the reason we were in this mess was because of a president who was elected in large measure by religious conservatives. Hell, I don't even think he's really running things, I think Dick Cheney is. And I think that he, like yourself, ran the numbers and concluded that it was hopeless. Best to just go over there on the weapons of mass destruction pretext and steal the oil we would need for the next few years. After that, it's another presidents' problem. Rather than try and develop a solution to the problem that would be sustainable, he opted for a short term fix that would leave us in a really bad way down the road. Contemptuous of this kind of thinking, yes, absolutely! I'm sorry if I can't hide it better. I don't think I'll ever be able to though. So again you're right. It's best that I leave, but I'll leave your prize here. Who knows, perhaps someone will come along someday who deserves it more than I do.
take care,
xyzdonna

Yes, boys and girls, I'm afraid she is telling the truth on that one thing. There are other loony tunes out there who make her seem calm, sedate and reasoning in spite of her tendency to foam at the mouth.

I have been wandering why this thread has not been closed for going off topic. Then it occurred to me that it really hasn't gone off topic. This really is the topic driving the topic. This reveals the struggle to control the fate of our society.

The struggle to maintain a free and open society where our children can believe as they choose and pursue life, liberty and happiness according to their own blueprint, or be pressed into Wxyz's mould and and be forced into "right thinking" by "thinking right".

He who has ears, let him hear!

you can not close this thread ........it is my morning cartoons.

jhowelb,

I have to agree on the basis of the thread title. It assumes this is in fact a proven condition that can be predicted. Anyone that questions these claims is made out to be a fool.

The left's direction towards resolving the prediction before it comes true IF EVER is more government control over and above rubber stamped Fascism. I see that as a "Be careful of what you wish for" situation. The right to protest government influence is a fundamental tool consistently used by the left. Given the opportunity to control the government, there would be no such thing as freedom, opposition or dissent(case in point, all the Despot Dictators they defend). The choice of words the left leans on but attempts to dress up are regulation, social regimentation, and/or autocracy. Which in many cases, are the very things they despise in the current government. As they see it, suppression of dissent isn't the problem, it is the highest implement on the list to get everything else in order, on track to their world view. Changing free thinking minds via a web postings takes too long!

DC

jhowelb,

I have to agree on the basis of the thread title. It assumes this is in fact a proven condition that can be predicted. Anyone that questions these claims is made out to be a fool.

The left's direction towards resolving the prediction before it comes true IF EVER is more government control over and above rubber stamped Fascism. I see that as a "Be careful of what you wish for" situation. The right to protest government influence is a fundamental tool consistently used by the left. Given the opportunity to control the government, there would be no such thing as freedom, opposition or dissent(case in point, all the Despot Dictators they defend). The choice of words the left leans on but attempts to dress up are regulation, social regimentation, and/or autocracy. Which in many cases, are the very things they despise in the current government. As they see it, suppression of dissent isn't the problem, it is the highest implement on the list to get everything else in order, on track to their world view. Changing free thinking minds via a web postings takes too long!

DC

It seems that you and I are singing harmony.

Famous words: "A government big enough to give you all you want is big enough to take all you have."

The choice of words the left leans on but attempts to dress up are regulation, social regimentation, and/or autocracy.

Refer above to Wxyz's reaction to the PC terminology remarks. One of their tactics is to accuse the opposition of what you are doing in order to deflect criticism.

It is true that we will never accomplish anything on these pages, but we will come to know that others feel the same way on these subject and that can formulate a response to circumstances in the real world. Free men need to freely exchange ideas. That is the reason for the first amendment

Dear Donna,

Never mind all the gently traded insults flowing back and forth on this thread.

You posted this..
Me: Hmmmm, nah, I can pretty much be a *itch in person as well.

As you may remember, I got all overheated about the "ladydog" word being censored in a PM.

OK, I may have a too advanced sense of guilt, but could I just say that "*itch "was not a reference to you personally?? I may have said something about the tenacity of "ladydog" terriers to "dance with your leg" under the table at polite dinner parties, and the inability of the guest to shrug them off, but it was just an analogy. I hope you did not take offence. If you did, I apologise.

I disagree with some of what you say.. but that is the nature of freedom.

Best wishes,

Martin

XYZ,

Not all thoughts need to be voiced. Otherwise your mouth would be attached to your brain.

Mariss

Here's a little "warming news" for ya guys!

Ice Bowl 2: Packers, Giants Brace For Wicked Cold
(CBS) Today's wicked cold for today's NFL playoff game in Green Bay is comparable to the legendary Ice Bowl 40 years ago when the Packers beat the Dallas Cowboys for the title at Lambeau Field.

The high in Green Bay is expected to be 3 degrees, but will likely fall below zero when the Packers and the New York Giants play for the NFC championship. Add in the wind chill and temperatures will likely feel like 20 below or even worse.

That compares with a temperature of 13 below and a wind chill of 40 below at the so-called Ice Bowl on Dec. 31, 1967 in which the Packers beat the Dallas Cowboys for the NFL title at Lambeau Field.

The Ice Bowl was the coldest NFL game ever played and tonight's matchup will also be among the most frigid. The game temperature was minus 9 when Cincinnati Bengals beat the San Diego Chargers for the AFC championship in January, 1982. In 1994 in Buffalo, the Bills beat the Raiders in an AFC playoff game, when the temperature hovered right around zero.

Here's XYZ's dream come true. The country is liberal from shore to shore. It is now run by progressive people and their progressive ideas. Conservatives have been annihilated. The country now is as it should be according to XYZ. Step forward in time a little bit with me and sample Liberal-World News Network, (the corporate parent company of CNN), to read news from the future!

And now for the local news:

A Costa Mesa man was arrested for killing a Culicidae, a recent Culex immigrant from Mexico. Witnesses report seeing the man swatting at and killing the immigrant at 9:30 PM in the front lawn of his residence. Police reports taken at the scene state the man claimed the Culicidae was biting him on the arm and he killed it in self defense.

A police spokeswoman said "Unfortunately many people still stereotype Culex immigrants as the cause for the recent St. Louis Encephalitis epidemics which has killed thousands of people but the Clinton-Kusinich sponsored All Animals are Equal Act of 2021 strictly prohibits the discrimination against fellow species." The spokeswoman said the man will be taken into federal custody tomorrow on civil rights violations.

When contacted, a PETA spokeswoman said "Viruses are living things. A boy is a pig is a mosquito is a virus. We do not differentiate between viruses and humans and other living things. All lifeforms are of equal value." PETA has recently been pushing president Clinton to include viruses like poliomylitis to have protected status under the All Animals are Equal Act. President Clinton is in her 4th term as president-for-life after the Supreme Court's controversial decision repealed election laws 8 years ago.

Neighbors say the man was a known troublemaker and was under police surveillance for having a body mass index well above the federally mandated limit. Rumors are he had illicit cheeseburger parties at his residence. The neighbors say they complained to police about rotund burned-meat junkies showing up at all hours of the night and the air frequently smelled of frying hamburgers.

The neighborhood's Pure Political Thoughts Compliance officer lamented "What's wrong with this world? Heroin, marijuana and crack cocaine are legal now. Why would someone want to damage society by ingesting non-vegan trans fats and animal proteins into their systems? I guess he must have been high to kill an innocent Culicidae like that."

Mariss

Clever. Having horses and an infant daughter I for one applaud the Costa Mesa man for killing the vile Culicidae immigrant. These illegal immigrants pose a clear and present danger to our children and even our livestock. Despite having been called a reactionary conservative pig for my own efforts to force them away from my community and speaking to others about the danger they pose I vow not to be dissuaded from my own efforts thanks to this man's brave stand. He is a true inspiration to those who refused to be ruled by the propaganda fueled consenous. I'll just be sure to follow the 3 S's: Slap; Spray; Shut-up. ;)

Here's XYZ's dream come true. The country is liberal from shore to shore. It is now run by progressive people and their progressive ideas. Conservatives have been annihilated. The country now is as it should be according to XYZ. Step forward in time a little bit with me and sample Liberal-World News Network, (the corporate parent company of CNN), to read news from the future!

And now for the local news:

A Costa Mesa man was arrested for killing a Culicidae, a recent Culex immigrant from Mexico. Mariss

And the worst part about these vile Culicidae immigrants is their eating habits. Absolutely repulsive. Only one type worse than they are those disgusting Muscidae and the things they eat.

However I would caution extreme care in choices of verbiage regarding these guys cause the PC Cops are licking their chops to get at ya!

This COULD happen in Wxyz's world!

A librarian is working away at her desk when she notices that a chicken has come into the library and is patiently waiting in front of the desk. When the chicken sees that it has the librarian's attention, it squawks, "Book, book, book, BOOK!"
The librarian complies, putting a couple of books down in front of the chicken. The chicken quickly grabs them and disappears.
The next day, the librarian is again disturbed by the same chicken, who puts the previous day's pile of books down on the desk and again squawks, "Book, book, book, BOOK!"
The librarian shakes her head, wondering what the chicken is doing with these books, but eventually finds some more books for the chicken. The chicken disappears.
The next day, the librarian is once again disturbed by the chicken, who squawks (in a rather irritated fashion, it seems), "Book, book, book, BOOK!"
By now, the librarian's curiosity has gotten the better of her, so she gets a pile of books for the chicken, and follows the bird when it leaves the library.
She follows it through the parking lot, down the street for several blocks, and finally into a large park. The chicken disappears into a small grove of trees, and the librarian follows.
On the other side of the trees is a small marsh. The chicken has stopped on the side of the marsh. The librarian, now really curious, hurries over and sees that there is a small frog next to the chicken, examining each book, one at a time. The librarian comes within earshot just in time to hear the frog saying, "Read it, read it, read it..."

This COULD happen in Wxyz's world!


Just about anything can happen like that in a FICTIONAL world with FICTIONAL characters! Like a librarian coming across food that can read! LOL!

DC

It's as plausible as "THE SKY IS FALLING!" ....er, I mean "The world ganna burn up and YOU are doing it!"

Just about anything can happen like that in a FICTIONAL world with FICTIONAL characters! Like a librarian coming across food that can read! LOL!

DC

Food? Well I guess so if you like frog legs; even when I was a meat eater I could never bring myself to include them in my diet.

Food? Well I guess so if you like frog legs; even when I was a meat eater I could never bring myself to include them in my diet.


Now THERE is species bias! The PC Cops gonna get you for THAT!

Equal and non hostile, remember?

Food? Well I guess so if you like frog legs; even when I was a meat eater I could never bring myself to include them in my diet.

You being British by birth and Canadian by choice have probably not had your sensibilities assaulted as much as some of us have, like those of us living in the south, lucky guy you.
Frog legs are too much work for little return, but not bad actually. What bothers me is the smell of cooking chitins, while they say they are good if you wash the $#!t out of them, I've smelled them cooking and have to pass. Without listing every offensive thing people in a "modern and civilized" society call food I leave you with a joke that sums it all up as well as any. A Georgia 7 course meal (a possum and 6pk of PBR beer). Thank you and don't forget to tip your waitress

Now THERE is species bias! The PC Cops gonna get you for THAT!

Equal and non hostile, remember?

Guilty, although the bias now is against all land farm based sources of flesh.

.... What bothers me is the smell of cooking chitins, while they say they are good if you wash the $#!t out of them....

What are chitins?

On the possum front: When I was a teenager in New Zealand I used to trap or shoot possums and rabbits to make fur hats, Davy Crocket hats when they were the rage. The rabbits formed part of my families diet but we only ever tried cooking possum once; and did not eat it, what a pong!

Being originally from the South I must also share a food joke.

A lady from NYC came into a southern cafe and looked at the menu offered by the hayseed waiter and said "Calf toungue? How on Earth can you eat something from an animals MOUTH?"

The redneck softly drawled "You eat eggs, don't you?"

Long ago I learned not to criticize another's choice in diet as long as I don't have to share it!

What are chitins?

On the possum front: When I was a teenager in New Zealand I used to trap or shoot possums and rabbits to make fur hats, Davy Crocket hats when they were the rage. The rabbits formed part of my families diet but we only ever tried cooking possum once; and did not eat it, what a pong!

Geof...

Chitlins are pig intestines...

Geof...

Chitlins are pig intestines...

The folks where my family come from would be aghast at both the definition and the waste of intestines.

They would say that chitlins, and cracklins are pork skins that float to the top as you render the lard from the outer layer of the pig. (To make lye soap, don;t ya know!)

And the intestines have to be scraped, reversed and scraped again to make the receptical skins for sausages.

Regional colloquialisms, I suppose.

Geof...

Chitlins are pig intestines...

Not much worse than tripe, or Haggis, or sweetbreads.

Food? Well I guess so if you like frog legs; even when I was a meat eater I could never bring myself to include them in my diet.

Frog tastes like chicken with a hint of stagnant water flavor kind of like lake trout if you ask me. Tried it once, so it falls in the food category. Other than that, they are good for keeping the insect population down and first responders to environmental indicators. Some folk as of late, are even into licking certain ones to get stoned.

Don't let that all detract from the main point! That was a generalization of a fictional event. Kind of like a female Tennessean posing as an enlightened liberal here of all places. Something's just not right with the whole circumstances, recent artificial inflection and incessant descriptions of dramatic affect for believability.

DC

Will somebody start feeding there cows beans, crush some styrofoam, leak a ton of air conditioning fluid in the air or something...I am freezing my butt off. I am sitting here in the cnc room burning styrofoam cups, running a small briggs, feeding my cat hormel chilli and so far were all still freezing. How long do we have to keep this up untill we warm up enough to notice? Even Al G. is trying to help did you see the lights on the house? Damn the dark side of the moon started to warm from that! Hey how come they said global warming is now happening to Mars my God we have trashed Mars and we have only sent a few probes. Someone call Steven Hawkings and tell him we have burned our bridge and the moon and mars are screwed. I am planing to move to Pluto.. Because they get the disney channel 24-7. And because Mickey told me I could just be F#$*ing Goofy. See ya this is the Nut that didn't fall very far from the tree. To all of my friends Jetski lives.

i left my car running for you :-)

What are chitins?

On the possum front: When I was a teenager in New Zealand I used to trap or shoot possums and rabbits to make fur hats, Davy Crocket hats when they were the rage. The rabbits formed part of my families diet but we only ever tried cooking possum once; and did not eat it, what a pong!

Thanks Wyld, my spell check changed chitlin to chitin and I missed it.

Geof, possums don't smell [I]that[I] bad. I mean anything that eats offal is going to be a bit woofy, but they didn't smell near as bad as the family of skunks that took up residence under my tack room floor, although I did like them better than the possums that kept coming around to raid the cat food. Seriously though, hats? You mean people put something made out a possum on their heads?!? Rabbit isn't bad, you just need to make sure, if you aren't the one that shot it, that you only get ones where they leave the feet on. Wonder how many people here know why. Meow!

Jetski, I'll go play in the coal forge for ya. I'm afraid I'm not very eco friendly in the smithy, no scrubbers.

Dear Dietitians ,

A couple of random points about food...

1) I ordered a dish containing lambs kidneys in a restaurant in the company of a North American. He was utterly horrified at the idea of eating offal. He said "Do you know what a kidney DOES". Errh, yes I do, and they taste fantastic.

2) Most forensic Police divers stay well clear of prawns.

Best wishes,

Martin

My gawd! This page reads like the menu from The Road Kill Grill!

Hehehe!

BTW, did some time in South East Asia (remember?), does anyone else know what monkey tastes like? (The animal, not the anatomy item)

Dear Dietitians ,

A couple of random points about food...

1) I ordered a dish containing lambs kidneys in a restaurant in the company of a North American. He was utterly horrified at the idea of eating offal. He said "Do you know what a kidney DOES". Errh, yes I do, and they taste fantastic.

2) Most forensic Police divers stay well clear of prawns.

Best wishes,

Martin

Heheh! I feel the same way about liver. I was tortured as a child with that stuff. Just the smell of it cooking makes me nauseated. Once I found out what the liver does......no thanks. The way my Mother cooked it, I'd bet you could re-sole boots that would last for years!:)

Seriously though, all crustaceans of the sea floor are filters that collect whatever is there, natural or otherwise. They sure are scrumptious, but too much of a good thing.....you do absorb what you eat and some of those toxins never leave your body!:eek:

DC

Yep! Bottom dwellers, catfish, carp, oysters, clams, mollusks of all stripes, crab, shrimp.....

Sh@#t Sharks all!

....Seriously though, hats? You mean people put something made out a possum on their heads?!?....

Well up here they were coonskin hats but coons don't live in New Zealand.

Actually there is a big business down there for possum fur; all the tourist shops have gloves, mittens, slippers, jackets, etc to flog to the American tourists on the cruise ships.

And actually kidney is better than liver, healthwise. Kidneys just process stuff and get rid of it, livers store it. Eat livers from any long lived fish and you get a good dose of mercury.

Road kill, yes done that, with a pheasant I hit with a car; at least I knew how long it had been dead.

And why not divert this thread to something more pleasant than bashings idiots.

Dear One of Many,

Sorry, but I will have to disagree about liver. If well cooked in a good sauce, lambs liver is an excellent main course. Pigs liver is not so good. IMVVHO, it does tend to be a bit rubbery, so we do seem to have agreement.

(If you have read this far, I would imagine that you may think that the post comes from some kind of Hannibal Lector). Heh heh heh.

Anyway, let us return to the gross habits of the creatures that live in the sea.

There is a location in the Solent, (a stretch of water that is between Southampton and the Isle of Wight at the south end of the UK), where it was an absolutely dead-cert that you could catch large bass . The name of the the buoy that marked the spot was "Sewer". Yes indeed, the end of the pipe that discharged all the crap from a large city into the sea.

Great tasting fish though...

Best wishes,

Martin

Hay Martin,
Apparently the discharge from a local nuclear plant was suppose to kill the marine life.Apparently some of the workers catch fish for lunch.Being 20 below to day if I was a fish I would shurley like the warmer waters.I cannot say for sure,but I hear they glow in the dark
Larry

I cannot say for sure,but I hear they glow in the dark
Larry

Dear Larry,

This is excellent news. All you have to do is hook them up as bait, and go night fishing.

Best wishes,

Martin

Well up here they were coonskin hats but coons don't live in New Zealand.

<snip>

And why not divert this thread to something more pleasant than bashings idiots.


More pleasant than bashing them and more pleasant than they themselves.

And besides, you can be sure of the fact and fiction in these missives!

Well up here they were coonskin hats but coons don't live in New Zealand.

Actually there is a big business down there for possum fur; all the tourist shops have gloves, mittens, slippers, jackets, etc to flog to the American tourists on the cruise ships.

And actually kidney is better than liver, healthwise. Kidneys just process stuff and get rid of it, livers store it. Eat livers from any long lived fish and you get a good dose of mercury.

Road kill, yes done that, with a pheasant I hit with a car; at least I knew how long it had been dead.

And why not divert this thread to something more pleasant than bashings idiots.

I couldn't agree more......we idiots(uhhhh civilized conservatives) take enough heat for things beyond our control as it is. Not that we don't ask for some of it(as any duped voters can be blamed), but hey, there is plenty of that stuff to go around for all walks of life. No broad brush required!

I've never tried kidney, but beef tongue, heart and chicken giblets were common in the early 70's when my Father was laid off in the Boeing down turn of those years. You guy's might not remember, but around here billboards read.... "Will the last person to leave Seattle, please turn off the lights?" (with a billboard sized light switch in the picture). Scary for a 10 year old and a questionable future.

We did survive those lean years some how. I recall Mom getting cases of chicken in a big gallon can the size I had never seen before but paint and coffee. Fast forward 10 years later when I had married and forgotten all about chicken in a can. Mom was inviting us over and making these really tasty chicken filled biscuits we all looked forward to. For some frugal reason my Mother had not used a few of those institutional canned chicken commodities, but she eventually found something to do with them.

Once I figured out where that chicken came from, I renamed her "secret recipe" "Botulism Biscuits" from that day on! No, we never did get food poisoning, the chicken was fine. 30 years later the name has stuck, but the recipe is still a top pick with my own children. :D

DC

Mmmmmmmmm.........giblet gravy over bread stuffing with cranberry sauce and a chicken thigh!
My Dad, his dad and his dad before him are all spinning in their graves just because I just had such vivid thoughts of their favorite dishes!

.... You guy's might not remember, but around here billboards read.... "Will the last person to leave Seattle, please turn off the lights?" (with a billboard sized light switch in the picture). Scary for a 10 year old and a questionable future.....DC

You are dating yourself, and yes I remember it quite well. If you were only 10 years old you maybe don't know the underlying reason. As far as I recall/understand it was mostly related to the cancellation of the SST project coupled with the Iran hostage affair and the 'Energy Crisis' of the mid '70s due to OPEC turning off the taps.

And I suppose I am dating myself. :)

Incidentally: 'Botulism Biscuits' is bacteriologically wrong; they would be 'Salmonella Biscuits'. Which can be just as terminal; the difference is with botulism you are paralyzed whereas with salmonella you have abdominal pains and violent diarrhea.

Tongue, heart and giblets were common in my diet as a youngster; the reason I don't eat chicken or beef now is that it is not necessary because I do eat fish for protein, and I refuse to support the intensive beef and chicken industry because I think the treatment of animals in feedlots and intensive chicken batteries is inhumane.

You are dating yourself, and yes I remember it quite well. If you were only 10 years old you maybe don't know the underlying reason. As far as I recall/understand it was mostly related to the cancellation of the SST project coupled with the Iran hostage affair and the 'Energy Crisis' of the mid '70s due to OPEC turning off the taps.

And I suppose I am dating myself. :)

Incidentally: 'Botulism Biscuits' is bacteriologically wrong; they would be 'Salmonella Biscuits'. Which can be just as terminal; the difference is with botulism you are paralyzed whereas with salmonella you have abdominal pains and violent diarrhea.

Tongue, heart and giblets were common in my diet as a youngster; the reason I don't eat chicken or beef now is that it is not necessary because I do eat fish for protein, and I refuse to support the intensive beef and chicken industry because I think the treatment of animals in feedlots and intensive chicken batteries is inhumane.

Geez Geof, sometimes you can be so technically banal. :rolleyes:

It was just a light hearted food related story that required no pinpoint accuracy in all facets of history or food related dangers, but I do appreciate the clarified history and FDA lessons topped off with your personal conviction. Maybe I'll try harder next time to cover every minute detail. Nah!, not gonna happen. I'm too much a laymen for that!:p

I suppose chewing the fish and savoring it's flavor can be considered inhumane too? Do you verify it is not farm raised fishy or verified not branded with a hot iron, net caught not hooked somehow? The way you put it, it sounds so esoteric for a mere mortal like myself. Glad that choice is working out for your sensibilities. Though now, I feel us land grazing carnivores don't meat your standards of protien eat-a-cut without considering the animal rights aspect of a meal!

The only meat I won't eat is if I can't recognise what it used to be in the fridge and don't wiggle going down! Although donor organs I am still a bit squeamish on! :)

Giving credit where due. A lot more would follow suit if they had to kill it, clean it and package it rather than just pick it up at the store where all the gruesome work is out of sight, out of mind.

DC

..........A lot more would follow suit if they had to kill it, clean it and package it rather than just pick it up at the store where all the gruesome work is out of sight, out of mind.

DC

As a farm raised boy, the only difference between the kill of domestic and hunt killed animals was the distance from the house. Sensibilities in this area leave me bewildered.

Arctic chill stretches coast to coast

A little more GW news!!!

Geez Geof, sometimes you can be so technically banal. :rolleyes: ....DC

Technically banal people are the ones who keep your highly technical society running smoothly; it is much better to be at that end of the spectrum of knowledge than at the other.

Have you ever been in an intensive chicken, beef or pig farm? Do you really consider the way the animals live is natural? Free range I am perfectly happy with, hunting for food I am happy with if indeed it is for food. It is not the method of killing that I disagree with it is the method of living beforehand.

Technically banal people are the ones who keep your highly technical society running smoothly; it is much better to be at that end of the spectrum of knowledge than at the other.

Have you ever been in an intensive chicken, beef or pig farm? Do you really consider the way the animals live is natural? Free range I am perfectly happy with, hunting for food I am happy with if indeed it is for food. It is not the method of killing that I disagree with it is the method of living beforehand.

While that may be true for specific discussions which need emendation. Applying it to silly little stories tends to be old school anal retentive where it diminishes the joy in sharing it. Kind of like getting cracked on the back of the knuckles with a ruler, for not pleasing your headmaster. As if there were more of a superiority thrill in the punishment and hierarchy than any other lesson.

The only thing that I concern myself with is whether the food is safe to consume. So, in like analogous terms. It is much better to be at one end of the food chain than the other; These truths I hold to be self evident over living things. If I began taking pity on how meat gets to the local grocer, it will snowball into tears for corn and oats, then go protesting for ethical treatment over HEADS of lettuce! Where does the internal agony stop?

In one sense, I can relate. My Grand Parents had a small farm with cows and chickens. Errrr Bovines and Foul to be technically correct. LOL!

One summer visit we all ran out to see Bessie the milk cow we would ride around like a horse, but she was nowhere to be found. Grandpa was out working in the barn, so we asked him where she went. With a slight chuckle he said, "Well....the last time I seen her she was in the freezer down in the cellar!"

The shock lasted until about dinner time. That was some of the best darn good Roast Bessie I ever had!:violin:

DC

While that may be true for specific discussions which need emendation. Applying it to silly little stories tends to be old school anal retentive where it diminishes the joy in sharing it. Kind of like getting cracked on the back of the knuckles with a ruler, for not pleasing your headmaster. As if there were more of a superiority thrill in the punishment and hierarchy than any other lesson......DC

Well you have not completely missed the point; I thought for a while you had. :)

.

A little more GW news!!!

http://www.cnczone.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=51385&d=1201008337



A little more GW please!

Technically banal people are the ones who keep your highly technical society running smoothly; it is much better to be at that end of the spectrum of knowledge than at the other.

Have you ever been in an intensive chicken, beef or pig farm? Do you really consider the way the animals live is natural? Free range I am perfectly happy with, hunting for food I am happy with if indeed it is for food. It is not the method of killing that I disagree with it is the method of living beforehand.


So.....Geof, what do you propose to those millions that get fed by intensive chicken, beef or pig farms? Do without? I understand where you are coming from, but to put this in light of this thread, where is the answer?

Did you read on the net this past week about the chimp in (????) someplace in Europe, where people were attempting to have it declared legally a person so he could receive benefits??? Just like gw, if the camel ever gets his nose under the tent, it will be like floodgates opening. Animals do not have rights other than to be cared for humanely. How much more humanely can you be cared for that to get fed every time you think about it? The chickens and swine are kept in temp controlled conditions and have it much better than the homeless that inhabit the bridges in every large city in the US. I am sure the same problem is in other places as well.

Mike

So.....Geof, what do you propose to those millions that get fed by intensive chicken, beef or pig farms?
<snip>
Animals do not have rights other than to be cared for humanely.
<snip>
Mike


Two things.

I think Geof was expressing a personal preference, not trying to impose his precepts on the rest of us.

In order to have rights one must be able to inter into a contract. Cognizance is the key.

The first of your rights, life, can be rescinded if you violate the contract with society. (ie; death penalty) No contract/no rights!

(human right are recieved from GOD!)

So.....Geof, what do you propose to those millions that get fed by intensive chicken, beef or pig farms? Do without? I understand where you are coming from, but to put this in light of this thread, where is the answer? .....Mike

Okay to put it in the light of this thread. Food is unavoidably going to become much more expensive and the economic difference between free range and intensive will get smaller. It may even go the other way with free range being less expensive; certainly the energy used to grow the free range is less. Free range also has far less wide ranging detrimental effects; go read about the so called 'Dead Zone' from eutrophication in the Gulf of Mexico which is largely a result of fertilizer run-off from corn operations. And those millions who currently get an over abundance of low cost food? Actually more expensive food in less abundant supply will be good for a great many people. Somewhere in this (wide ranging) thread there was mention of medical services. One of the largest loads on the medical system in any developed country is the burden from people suffering the detrimental health effects of too much and the wrong type of food. I find it rather stupid for a person to insist on their 'right' to gorge on whatever they want and then pop-off from a massive heart attack in their fifties.

It does not matter what way you look at it and what you believe there will be significant changes. Either due to direct government interference, indirect government interference as in subsidizing ethanol and diverting food grain away from food production, or due to economic forces. You might object to government interference, you might be able to influence it; you are not going to have much effect on economic forces.

EDIT: I actually skipped over the bit about animal rights; a lot of that is idiotic. My view is that humans have a responsibility to treat other living creatures humanely; failing to live up to this demeans us as humans. Rearing animals in comfortable conditions and then slaughtering them quickly and as painlessly as possible is humane. Rearing them in conditions where they peck or chew each other or themselves is not humane.

I find it rather stupid for a person to insist on their 'right' to gorge on whatever they want and then pop-off from a massive heart attack in their fifties.

His wallet, his food and his funeral. He should be allowed to do as he pleases!

Either due to direct government interference, indirect government interference as in subsidizing ethanol and diverting food grain away from food production,..........

READ: Government BLUNDERS!

His wallet, his food and his funeral. He should be allowed to do as he pleases!...

That is correct; I said I find it stupid.

But I have a different attitude when it is some fat slob beside me in an airplane who wants to lift the arm rest and splork over onto part of the seat I paid for; if someone is too big to fit in a single seat they should pull out their wallet and pay for two.

Similarly if I arrived at a hospital ER through a condition that was not preventable and no fault of my own, and I made to wait because some fat slob has just been brought in with a massive heart attack just behind me I have a different attitude.

A person can do what they want with their own life just don't interfere with mine in a small or large way.

Well you have not completely missed the point; I thought for a while you had. :)

I have been reading your posts for a long time Geof. One common element that often bleeds through is your ingrained regard for status and intellectual prose.

Some people talk at you, some people talk to you and others just have a bad habit of talking down to you!

Maybe that is just me, being put on the defensive since I have little use for status or intellectual popularity.

DC

ER visits are ALL preventable in one way or another. Triage procedure can't include preventability as criterion for order of treatment. That would require a battery of lawyers to fight out the order specificity of each visitor.

I do think that he, and you, should have to arrange for payment of you own treatment expenses. I also think that without third party payees (insurance companies, private or government) being involved, in anything other than catastrophic conditions, my health care expenditures would be much more manageable.

"A government big enough to give you all you want is big enough to take all you have!"

I have been reading your posts for a long time Geof. One common element that often bleeds through is your ingrained regard for status and intellectual prose....DC

If I have given any impression that I have any regard for status I am sorry; that is totally inadvertant. The intellectual prose....well does that mean I am an intellectual? Or does it just mean I subscribe to Reader's Digest and avidly devour the Increase Your Word Power pages. Or does it mean I strive to spell words conventionally and assign conventional meanings to them? If you are put on the defensive that is your problem not mine. Several months ago I posted in the thread "Why do you visit CNCzone", or some title like that. Included in my reasons was to puncture pompous prigs; and I think you will agree there are some. Another reason was to be a pompous prig myself to irritate people. Bit childish? Probably but that is not an uncommon failing judging by the responses of a lot of people who post here.

ER visits are ALL preventable in one way or another. Triage procedure can't include preventability as criterion for order of treatment. ....

All ER visits preventable? Well, in principle, yes; but in practise not easy, and irrelevant. If you or I are peacefully and law-abidingly going about our busines and some yahoo drives into us with a vehicle maybe the resulting ER visit was in theory preventable but neither of us had any control over that. And triage procedure could easily be modified to take into account preventability.

But you don't comment on my airplane example...is it a case that you agree. :)

.............triage procedure could easily be modified to take into account preventability.

That become problematic as we contemplate the person whose opinion is to be used to triage. Ergo, the lawyers! (logjam beyond snafu!)

As far as airfare is concerned, I think we should just slow down a bit. Nothing goes by air that is not a life/death crucial necessity. Rails can move freight, mail and human carcasses ( large AND small) quite rapidly enough and was for many years the fastest practical transport. And still could be the most economical provided the infrastructure is properly maintained. (There is a cause Wxyz should get behind)

In any case I believe that each should carry his own freight. Help those around you and they will help you. Then as a unit we can accomplish more than our sum total....as long as it is strictly voluntary.

If I have given any impression that I have any regard for status I am sorry; that is totally inadvertant. The intellectual prose....well does that mean I am an intellectual? Or does it just mean I subscribe to Reader's Digest and avidly devour the Increase Your Word Power pages. Or does it mean I strive to spell words conventionally and assign conventional meanings to them? If you are put on the defensive that is your problem not mine. Several months ago I posted in the thread "Why do you visit CNCzone", or some title like that. Included in my reasons was to puncture pompous prigs; and I think you will agree there are some. Another reason was to be a pompous prig myself to irritate people. Bit childish? Probably but that is not an uncommon failing judging by the responses of a lot of people who post here.

I thought I took ownership of the probability of defensive being my problem.

Pompus prig(around here we use the PC term "Richard Cranium") is probably a more accurate term than intellectual prose, that puts people on the defensive. The reaction may be a self imposed problem but it brings me no satisfaction in setting out to generate it on others intentionally. Take one of your statements below for example. You don't want things others do that effect you small or large, but what you do effects others is somehow different and not your problem?:rolleyes:

I see how you are! LOL!

DC

A person can do what they want with their own life just don't interfere with mine in a small or large way.

....I see how you are! LOL!

DC

How I am is how I am, but I don't think I have ever found it necessary to call someone a Dick Head no matter how it is dressed up.

And what is wrong with saying that others shouldn't interfere in my life? Good grief that is a common theme in many of the posts here; phrased differently but same meaning to all intents and purposes.

They are one in the same in my book. That is a method of interaction not technically any label. I thought that is exactly what you meant in Canadian terms, no matter how it was dressed up. I just equated it in my terms, you went vulgar with it.

There is nothing wrong with you not wanting interference/annoyances from others effecting you. That is a given. But it is in direct conflict with the other statement being an interference/annoyance to others "intentionally" you were admitting to. Quite different views being on the giving and/or receiving end, eh?

These are just my honest observations. Let me know if I have unintentionally offended you; jussss so I can tell you that is your problem!:stickpoke

That is not meant to be disrespectful, just what I honestly have gleaned out of many of your authoritarian postings. Reminds me of this old permanently out of work drunk codger in the neighborhood I grew up in. He would start almost every response with "Well, ya dumb $h1t, if ya'd just listen to me...."

The difference is you have the smarts to back it up, but it ain't fun to read.

DC

.... But it is in direct conflict with the other statement being an interference/annoyance to others "intentionally" you were admitting to. Quite different views being on the giving and/or receiving end, eh?......

..... Reminds me of this old permanently out of work drunk codger in the neighborhood I grew up in. He would start almost every response with "Well, ya dumb , if ya'd just listen to me...."

The difference is you have the smarts to back it up, but it ain't fun to read.

DC

First and last points; don't read it then you won't be annoyed. Your response is your choice.

Second point; out of work is wrong, permanently drunk is wrong (I can't afford it), old codger is probably correct: But please identify any post were I have addressed anyone with that phrase.

Dear Geof,

I know this goes back a bit, but thank you for this...

I actually skipped over the bit about animal rights; a lot of that is idiotic. My view is that humans have a responsibility to treat other living creatures humanely; failing to live up to this demeans us as humans.

The real question is where each of us draws the line.

- I do not kick my dog, even when it took a chunk from my hand when in pain and in confusion.

- I eat meat and fish, have no problem with leather, but draw the line at veal raised in the dark to make their flesh pale.

- No problem with any fur clothes at all, as long as the animal dies instantly, and humanely. I do not care if the pelt goes to the wife of a hedge fund manager in Dubai for fashion purposes, or to keep an Inuit hunter warm on a hunting trip. I get queasy at a day long death in a remotely-set trap however.

- I try and avoid buying battery chickens, and their eggs. Visited a chicken unit once, and didn't like the sights, smells or density.

-I do not hunt foxes with a pack of hounds, and do not wish to do so. Maybe it is cruel. That is for those who hunt to decide, and not for me to dictate.

- Fishing? No problem. It is quite difficult to put yourself in the position of a fish. That said, for all I know they swim about and debate the finer points of quantum physics. And no, I personally would not wish to be hooked in the mouth and dragged out of my natural environment. The only defence I can offer in mitigation is that I stun them as soon as possible, and always catch no more than is needed for supper (on a lucky day).

- Animal experimentation may well be necessary. No need to squirt a new brand of shampoo into the eyes of rabbits, but there might be medical research that could benefit humans that leads to the death of some lab. animals. Anybody IMVVHO who denies that should offer themselves or their children in the place of the lab. rats, and stop putting petrol through the letter boxes of those engaged in animal experimentation.

Ultimately, could I meekly suggest, one's own position on animals' welfare, rights etc etc is just a matter of personal aesthetics, rather than a universal moral standard.

Best wishes,

Martin

Ultimately, could I meekly suggest, one's own position on animals' welfare, rights etc etc is just a matter of personal aesthetics, rather than a universal moral standard.

Best wishes,

Martin

You can do this meekly, but inevitably someone will take the position that yours is stupid, theirs is right. Just like global warming and pro or con in wearing fur, some can't leave you with the sense that it is, ever was or ever will remain personal choice if they get their way. There must some basic instinct to pass judgment on the actions of those ones sensibilities conflict. I think it evolves into a desire to control with absolute power if no justice is found to stop the practice that is being obsessed over. Just knowing an offense takes place is enough to arm a brigade for no other reason than to push their will on someone for something that affects them in no other capacity of life. Problematic inventions like these give stature driven puritan people something to look down their noses at the indignant heathens that could care less.

The more the world changes, the greater humans need to dominate remains the same!

Try that personal aesthetic idea on radical Islam or any other activist group and see what happens. They all have a plan for a universal moral standard, which you can follow peacefully, or they have ways to make you go in peace. By brute force or by court, there is no rest until you will conform. It seems only a matter of time until this applies to all issues on the test of moral standards and it might just start in your own neck of the woods.

DC

DC,

Eloquently put but I don't think it's quite as bad as you say. We are social creatures so there must be some built-in mechanism in all of us, an instinct to compel others to conform. Without it civilization wouldn't exist and we would all be solitary creatures living a marginal existence.

Mariss

The more the world changes, the greater humans need to dominate remains the same!

Freedom is not free, Jefferson once said, "The tree of liberty must be nourished from time to time with the blood of tyrants and patriots alike."

Are you willing to make a payment when they come to cut down the tree?

DC,

Eloquently put but I don't think it's quite as bad as you say. We are social creatures so there must be some built-in mechanism in all of us, an instinct to compel others to conform. Without it civilization wouldn't exist and we would all be solitary creatures living a marginal existence.

Mariss

Some civilization wouldn't exist. Just as some still clutch to third century mentality and cannot prosper for the same reasons? A society where anyone caught trying is dealt with severely?

Take the American dream and freedom for instance. I would contend that was gained out of cooperation, not conformity. Trading cooperation for conformity is what I fear may tear it apart. Where in one form is having a stake in its success and the other is a demand because some official told you to or else (as Martin eludes), "failing to live up to this demeans us as humans". Didn't Hitler coin a similar quip?

I don't mean to paint it all bad. I am just saying the potential is there and in many ways seems to be spreading like wild fire on several hot button issues at once. Special interests groups like ACLU, PETA and the like fan the flames for their over blown causes. All in effort to make people "aware of mundane atrocities". These types of minuscule emotional issue activisms already invoke 2% of the population controlling the majority.

Don't you get a sense the partisan divide is widening with polarizing talking heads on the news, Elected leaders on down? I fear the coming clamp down will lead us to conditions in the first paragraph above. Katrina was a great example of how anarchy can erupt into lawless chaos in short order. It is after all, a more prevalent " screw you, me first" generation.


DC

Katrina was a great example of how anarchy can erupt into lawless chaos in short order. It is after all, a more prevalent " screw you, me first" generation.


If you want to consider that kind of activity, the upstanding citizens of Watts showed you how to really do it!

A person can do what they want with their own life just don't interfere with mine in a small or large way.

If everyone could follow that advice the world would be a much nicer place to live.

The British counterpart of the German Marxian revisionists and heavily influenced by the English Historical school, the upper-middle-class intellectual group - the "Fabian Society" - emerged in 1884 as a strand of latter-day utopian socialism. They became known to the public firstly through Sidney Webb's Facts for Socialists (1884) and then through the famous Fabian Essays in Socialism (1889) written by the Webbs, Shaw, and others.

As one contemporary noted, "they combined an ounce of theory with a ton of practice". The practice, for the Fabians, was to influence public opinion in this direction. This was to be accomplished, they argued, not through mass organization but rather by the selective education of the powerful "few" who would lead the reforms in government (hopefully themselves), thus they only belatedly extended their appeal beyond the narrow intelligentsia class from which they arose.

"...who, remembering that those (policies of high taxation and centralisation of credit) were the demands of the Manifesto (issued by Marx and Engels in 1848), can doubt our common inspiration."
- Professor Harold Laski, famous Fabian Socialist theoretician in his
Appreciation of the Communist Manifesto for the Labour Party (1948).

Originally Posted by Geof
A person can do what they want with their own life just don't interfere with mine in a small or large way.



If everyone could follow that advice the world would be a much nicer place to live.

It'll never work!

Not when one doesn't practice what they preach. It is the two faced self centered "it's all about me" malfeasance that will mess it up with regularity. The imbalance tips with what others do that effects your life may be a problem for you. What we do that carelessly effects others is no longer viewed as our problem, it is someone else's with a tough luck attitude to boot!

We see it on a daily basis here and and every walk of life around the world. To the point, some find it convenient to recruit others to blow themselves up to remove groups that they determine create their life problems with abject ignorance to the problem they themselves create in turn.

What, you got a problem wit me? You don't achieve success by being Mr. nice guy to the unworthy under-educated working class.......Se La Vi, Que Sera, Sera, Allah Akbar, Kiss my fat white a, .......you know the drill!


DC

Of course it will never work. Ideals rarely, if ever do exist when dealing with something as complex and the human psyche and add to that the interaction of all the people in proximity to one another and it becomes a real mess. As an ideal however, I should never impinge on another's right to pursue their dreams and goals, or even their stereo or personal space, just as they should never impinge on my pursuit or peace and quite reflection of a good book or purchased space of a seat as the example went. Driving down the road it is hard to remain a courteous driver, and that is a simple matter of manners and obeying rather simplistic laws. So while I appreciate the ideal, I still have to work on my own empathy in even the most basic interactions with others. Self awareness can be such a bother at times. :P
I had what I thought was a profound revelation when I was a freshman in college (1992). It was that our Western society was becoming more and more narcissistic with every passing year and that would lead to an eventual breakdown, or near breakdown of society as it existed at the time causing either a near anarchy state or a new renaissance of awareness in a rebound effect. I even wrote an essay on the subject for a class. The professor referred me to the library with a title and author for some reading. Seems I had the near exact same epiphany that some learned soul had published in 1972, two years before I was born! And there I was narcissistic enough to believe it was an original thought!


It'll never work!

Not when one doesn't practice what they preach. It is the two faced self centered "it's all about me" malfeasance that will mess it up with regularity. The imbalance tips with what others do that effects your life may be a problem for you. What we do that carelessly effects others is no longer viewed as our problem, it is someone else's with a tough luck attitude to boot!

We see it on a daily basis here and and every walk of life around the world. To the point, some find it convenient to recruit others to blow themselves up to remove groups that they determine create their life problems with abject ignorance to the problem they themselves create in turn.

What, you got a problem wit me? You don't achieve success by being Mr. nice guy to the unworthy under-educated working class.......Se La Vi, Que Sera, Sera, Allah Akbar, Kiss my fat white a, .......you know the drill!


DC

Yessiry!

The crux is selfish Governments that breeds selfish cultures that breeds selfish individuals. Egocentrism becomes the unavoidable norm from the top down. Made more visible by a few that put their own self important causes above everyone else's.

DC




Of course it will never work. Ideals rarely, if ever do exist when dealing with something as complex and the human psyche and add to that the interaction of all the people in proximity to one another and it becomes a real mess. As an ideal however, I should never impinge on another's right to pursue their dreams and goals, or even their stereo or personal space, just as they should never impinge on my pursuit or peace and quite reflection of a good book or purchased space of a seat as the example went. Driving down the road it is hard to remain a courteous driver, and that is a simple matter of manners and obeying rather simplistic laws. So while I appreciate the ideal, I still have to work on my own empathy in even the most basic interactions with others. Self awareness can be such a bother at times. :P
I had what I thought was a profound revelation when I was a freshman in college (1992). It was that our Western society was becoming more and more narcissistic with every passing year and that would lead to an eventual breakdown, or near breakdown of society as it existed at the time causing either a near anarchy state or a new renaissance of awareness in a rebound effect. I even wrote an essay on the subject for a class. The professor referred me to the library with a title and author for some reading. Seems I had the near exact same epiphany that some learned soul had published in 1972, two years before I was born! And there I was narcissistic enough to believe it was an original thought!

Getting back on track.......as it were?

Biofuel conflicts of interest? (http://www.openmarket.org/2007/11/12/biofuel-mandates-cause-global-warming-scientists-say/)

Fuel over food (http://www.nationalcenter.org/NPA564.html)

DC

Getting back on track.......as it were?

Biofuel conflicts of interest? (http://www.openmarket.org/2007/11/12/biofuel-mandates-cause-global-warming-scientists-say/)

DC

Gotta be suspicious of anyone who tells me I gotta burn my lunch for energy to drive to the grocery store. Corn was made to eat. Can be converted to something to drink as well.

A fire is a fire,is a fire,is a fire,is a fire, and it will produce co2, co, no and God knows what else. Coal can be burned cleanly and if one is really concerned about the gasses released into the atmosphere, it can be pumped into layers of porous rock never to be sniffed again.

The real issue here is the people who want to impose this abomination upon us and the REAL reason behind it. This I approached obliquely with post #999 which went unnoticed or at least without comment.

Wake up, people! It's not the environment that is under assault here. It is YOUR FREEDOM! The elitists out there simply want to use this "Convenient Excuse" to put you in harness!

Wake up, people! It's not the environment that is under assault here. It is YOUR FREEDOM! The elitists out there simply want to use this "Convenient Excuse" to put you in harness!

Dear jhowelb,

The environment may (IMVVHO) be under threat. On the other hand, it may (IMVVHO) not be.

The "science" to support the first suggestion could well be seriously compomised by a toxic mixture of ....

(1) control freak politicians (as ever, with an eye on a larger tax-take, and yet more interference in the lives of the citizens),

(2) the IPCC, which only seems able to spout stuff the politicians want to hear, and ignores (or worse) , seems to use underhand smears to discredit those who publish papers that are not "on-side",

(3) possibly compromised scientists with empires to build, and funding to attract, and

(4) environmental pressure groups who would simply fade away if the truth proved inconvenient.

This has all been expressed more eloquently before on this thread, but I just feel like letting off steam. Sorry.

Best wishes,

Martin

The need for fuel and energy to sustain the kind of life style we have come to believe as necessary is impossible to meet with "bio-fuels". That is why we switched from wood, peat and animal dung.

The only power source to come close so far is nuclear, and it also has waste product problems

The alternatives to using what we have in abundance as cleanly as possible is mass suicide (the GW solution preferred by the likes of Wxyz) and a return to the stone age.

Yessiry!

The crux is selfish Governments that breeds selfish cultures that breeds selfish individuals. Egocentrism becomes the unavoidable norm from the top down. Made more visible by a few that put their own self important causes above everyone else's.

DC

All govt are, by definition, selfish as they are only concerned with their own domain and citizens and only concerns itself with other entities when they interact with it. Egocentric is a normal state of a healthy mind, not a product of govt. Don't mistake egocentric with a lack of courtesy and manners. If you say we are losing some of the Vaseline of social intercourse thanks to our culture though, I would agree. Despite the finest honed sense of empathy the mind is only actually able to comprehend itself. We are incapable of knowing the mind of another, and can only "understand" another by interpreting their experiences in terms of ourself. We simply can not comprehend why another person could value an issue more than our most important issue. I myself get worked up more about animal rights vs welfare than GW. Other people think those are more trivial concerns than poverty, deforestation, or INSERT CAUSE HERE.

Ob on topic discussion.
I'm sure you all remember that GW proponents predicted more numerous and more intensive hurricane activity in the Gulf Of Mexico as a result of GW. Two quite years must have proved to be an embarrassment to the GW front. It seems that once again the scientific process takes another near mortal blow, now they say the last two quite years are a result of GW, a complete reversal by NOAA. They are simply changing their "facts" to suit their ends. Seems like if they can't figure out how water and air temperatures will effect storm formation in the tropical zone of the Atlantic then they certainly aren't qualified to make predictions for an entire global climate.

Just a thought
_______________________________________________________________
The nature of debate is to present one's own personal angular perspective to counter another's, not as an attack but as discourse.
Special Note
Discourse is not defined as calling someone a dick head

Can you please explain specifically where and whom used the vulgar term you have below in your tag line?

To clarify my reponsibility in that exchange. Nobody called anyone a name. I was reasonably PC only agreeing with Geof's definition of his own actions in parts he admitted to bating people in another thread. My translation put emphasis on any characters childish head game responses and/or nitpicking non-technical posts for minor errors in technicalities that are not warranted nor that type of intrusion very welcome. Around here that is what it is, but let's at least maintian its context.........My concern was in my observations of how I see his character effects others without a care or a clue....if it were not intentional. Below he lays claim to it as if certain ones have it coming.....but somehow unaware that should include him quite often??

Quoting Geof:
Several months ago I posted in the thread "Why do you visit CNCzone", or some title like that. Included in my reasons was to puncture pompous prigs; and I think you will agree there are some. Another reason was to be a pompous prig myself to irritate people. Bit childish?


The spin was that I shouldn't read his posts if I am annoyed or become defensive, that is my problem? So, let me paraphase this in short. It's ok to act in an (insert vulgar explative) manner as you pass judgement on another ( insert vulgar explative) contributor because they abviously annoy him; therefore this (vulgar explative) needs puncturing to fit within a personified standard of the (vulgar explative) delivering it. Then become aghast, insensed and offended when reaction is turned back on him. It is this type of MO that then turns on a dime with not wanting anyone to effect his life small or large? I'd classify that as do as I say not as I do. I'm not sure it can be any more obvious.

When I put my self in that perdicament, then either I take the heat or know when to leave. I certainly don't think it needs more beating if it is already a dead horse..Moderators, please feel free to delete large portions of this thread! I doubt these last few weeks will be missed.

Egocentric is getting normal, but healthy?

3 a: limited in outlook or concern to one's own activities or needs b: self-centered; selfish.

In my use of the term, it is makes a direct link to a lack of courtesy and manners as detailed above.

You make a lot of good points SO!

DC





All govt are, by definition, selfish as they are only concerned with their own domain and citizens and only concerns itself with other entities when they interact with it. Egocentric is a normal state of a healthy mind, not a product of govt. Don't mistake egocentric with a lack of courtesy and manners. If you say we are losing some of the Vaseline of social intercourse thanks to our culture though, I would agree. Despite the finest honed sense of empathy the mind is only actually able to comprehend itself. We are incapable of knowing the mind of another, and can only "understand" another by interpreting their experiences in terms of ourself. We simply can not comprehend why another person could value an issue more than our most important issue. I myself get worked up more about animal rights vs welfare than GW. Other people think those are more trivial concerns than poverty, deforestation, or INSERT CAUSE HERE.

Ob on topic discussion.
I'm sure you all remember that GW proponents predicted more numerous and more intensive hurricane activity in the Gulf Of Mexico as a result of GW. Two quite years must have proved to be an embarrassment to the GW front. It seems that once again the scientific process takes another near mortal blow, now they say the last two quite years are a result of GW, a complete reversal by NOAA. They are simply changing their "facts" to suit their ends. Seems like if they can't figure out how water and air temperatures will effect storm formation in the tropical zone of the Atlantic then they certainly aren't qualified to make predictions for an entire global climate.

Just a thought
_______________________________________________________________
The nature of debate is to present one's own personal angular perspective to counter another's, not as an attack but as discourse.
Special Note
Discourse is not defined as calling someone a dick head

One of Many
Perhaps our mileage just differs. I'm not out to offend anyone, you are of course included in that so I hope you don't take offense, even if you take umbrage be assured I'm not out to goad you. That really is all I have to say on it.

I say healthy as in the fact that a person who's mind isn't fundamentally self centered usually suffers from a personality disorder. I see a lot of narcissism and a disturbing lack of empathy as the cultural culprit IMO. I base this on talks with psychologist and psychiatrist friends of mine. One of these persons deals with a lot of court referrals through the juvenile justice system. Some of the cases he speaks about, always in general terms and with complete anonymity for the patient, are disturbing. He says he is seeing more and more kids with sociopath tendencies, compared he says, with symptoms of milder personality disorders in the past that feature narcissism but not to the extreme ranged of the former. Eddie Hasckell writ large. With all the polarizing issues in our lives these days it isn't surprising to me that people have a us vs them attitude. GW is an excellent example. Two contributors to this thread recently showed us just how a position can morph into a doctrine and cause strife. We are so busy arguing about the broad strokes we can't even find common ground.

I've seen the orbital photos that Nasa released showing arctic ice retreating since the days of Space Lab, they are dramatic. There is little doubt for me that climate changes is here. Even so it seems I can't find common ground with the followers of the GW bandwagon. They often simply refuse to discuss the possibility that man isn't the major; only factor. No one can intelligently argue that Earth hasn't been a much warmer and much colder place than it is now in the history of mankind, but suggest it is a natural cycle and you've committed blasphemy. Due to the warming in Siberia we have made finds that show that what is now permafrost use to be more temperate, with bodies of water that only froze over for the winter and supported large mammals like mammoths, you still will be insulted by many for suggesting that gw might simply be a natural cycle. Unless someone wants to prove mammoth flatulence keep it warmer then so that it was more temperate. To much division based on ideology for my taste.

There was a chemistry professor in a large college that had some exchange students in the class. One day while the class was in the lab, the prof noticed one young man, an exchange student, who kept rubbing his back and stretching as if his back hurt.

The professor asked the young man what was the matter. The student told him he had a bullet lodged in his back. He had been shot while fighting communists in his native country who were trying to overthrow his country's government and install a new communist regime.

In the midst of his story, he looked at the professor and asked a strange question. He asked: "Do you know how to catch wild pigs?" The professor thought i